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In Other News …… – politicalbetting.com

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  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 9,866
    CD13 said:

    I watched the La Rochelle vs Leinster game on telly in the final of the Heineken Cup yesterday. An all action game from Marseille decided in the final minute. Probably the equivalent of the European Champions Cup in football.

    As usual, the French and Irish flags happily intermingled. I remember taking a few football fans to Sale to see them play Wasps some years ago. They were very surprised to see fans mingling and drinking together at the ground.

    As regards the football, I have a Liverpool post code, but Liverpool have gone off the boil in the last three weeks. It could be a busy season telling on them. I admit to turning it off at half-time. Sorry, Mr Eagles, but they need a summer break. I feel some sympathy for the fans but the Leinster fans will be just as disappointed.

    Its worth noting that until only a few years ago Liverpool and Everton fans would mix in the stadium during the derby. Something that couldn't be said about many other famous derbies.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,454

    Roger said:
    Yes, Beth Rigbys a nasty piece of work.
    Off topic? What a puerile response to a gentle Sunday morning joke.
    I don't agree that Beth Rigby is a "nasty piece of work" at all. She's not a client journalist. She asks the telling questions.
    She’s also a hypocrite.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,194
    CD13 said:

    I watched the La Rochelle vs Leinster game on telly in the final of the Heineken Cup yesterday. An all action game from Marseille decided in the final minute. Probably the equivalent of the European Champions Cup in football.

    As usual, the French and Irish flags happily intermingled. I remember taking a few football fans to Sale to see them play Wasps some years ago. They were very surprised to see fans mingling and drinking together at the ground.

    As regards the football, I have a Liverpool post code, but Liverpool have gone off the boil in the last three weeks. It could be a busy season telling on them. I admit to turning it off at half-time. Sorry, Mr Eagles, but they need a summer break. I feel some sympathy for the fans but the Leinster fans will be just as disappointed.

    A few years back went to the Saracen’s Leinster ERC final in Newcastle. Fabulous day fans mingled and drank together both in and out the ground.

    My father in law was surprised as he’s more a football fan.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,032
    edited May 29
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    tlg86 said:

    Here we go again...

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/may/28/champions-league-final-kick-off-delay-liverpool-real-madrid-paris

    Liverpool said they were “hugely disappointed” by what had unfolded. “Supporters should not have to experience the scenes we have witnessed tonight,” the club said. “We have officially requested a formal investigation into the causes of these unacceptable issues.”

    Liverpool should ask themselves why this happens to them so often.

    Now, the organisation last night was probably shambolic, just as it was at Hillsborough. But turning up 20 minutes before kick off is asking for trouble. Get in the ground early. It’s rule number 1 when you go to a big game.

    I heard it was trying to get in with fake tickets
    At the risk of getting called out, on R5 on Friday morning a Liverpool fan explicitly said he would try to get in without a ticket. On national radio, around 8am. I have no doubt some did try, although apparently locals did too.
    But in 2022 we should not see this. How are we not capable of managing crowds? Outer ring of steel to screen for those with tickets. Then it’s easy.
    I am coming to the conclusion that due to Covid and the hiatus in big sporting events with crowds, we’ve forgotten how to manage them. Us, at Wembley and now the french.
    https://twitter.com/MarkOgden_/status/1530630002793922561?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet
    Fans without tickets were jumping over the fence which looks about 10 feet tall. You'd need an army to stop them. It looks like mainly Madrid fans. The footage from the clip I posted has gone
    France and you are shamelessly trying to deflect from a shocking display of lack of organisation and overreaction by French police which only by the grace of God did not end in tragedy
    .
    I do not normally come out on the side of Liverpool fans, but they were not the guilty party here and many walked away to avoid the danger and in one case a young girl and her father who had been directly tear gassed

    It is also clear locals were causing trouble, and as far as Real Madrid fans were concerned they accessed the stadium from a very different area and less prone to bottlenecks

    You just cannot accept that your beloved France is the guilty party here
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,454
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    As ever a quality article from @Cyclefree who never ceases to get to the heart of what is rotten with some of our institutions, especially the Police.

    I’m intrigued. Which institutions do you think are not rotten?
    English Heritage.
    They may not be rotten, but their credibility lies in ruins.
    That’s very good indeed 😂
    Why thank you, I’m here all week.
    Half term?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,113
    Andrew Rawnsley says: "When that person [at the top of No10] is Mr Johnson, you get a culture of selfish, arrogant, entitled, amoral, narcissistic rule-breaking that combines, in the true spirit of the Bullingdon Club, snobbery with yobbery"

    Ooft
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/29/boris-johnson-has-vomited-over-standards-in-public-life?CMP=share_btn_tw
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,917

    tlg86 said:

    Here we go again...

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/may/28/champions-league-final-kick-off-delay-liverpool-real-madrid-paris

    Liverpool said they were “hugely disappointed” by what had unfolded. “Supporters should not have to experience the scenes we have witnessed tonight,” the club said. “We have officially requested a formal investigation into the causes of these unacceptable issues.”

    Liverpool should ask themselves why this happens to them so often.

    Now, the organisation last night was probably shambolic, just as it was at Hillsborough. But turning up 20 minutes before kick off is asking for trouble. Get in the ground early. It’s rule number 1 when you go to a big game.

    From the article you link to:

    ‘In Spanish “security problems” were blamed but the English announcement was clear in pointing the finger at “the late arrival” of fans. That was clearly not the issue, though. If they were late getting into the ground, it was because of disorganisation outside. The former Liverpool CEO, Peter Moore, called it “victim blaming at its very best”.’

    The rapidity with which you and other posters started flinging the mud at Liverpool fans last night, with snide references to Hillsborough, was distasteful, to say the least, whether they booed your precious national anthem or not.
    Abide with Me is a national anthem?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Heathener said:

    "I was tear gased by disgraceful French riot police"

    The Sunday Telegraph Chief Football Correspondent

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/05/28/pepper-sprayed-disgraceful-french-riot-police-champions-league/

    "It was outside Gate Y that I was caught in the pepper spray used indiscriminately by French riot police inside the Stade de France. I was talking to Liverpool fans who were waiting patiently, some for up to three hours, to try and get inside the stadium when it wafted into my face, stinging my eyes, lips and tongue. I saw it being sprayed. I could not quite believe it. One fan closer to the spray than me was bent double, retching, as he struggled to cope.

    It was a shock, a complete shock – had what had happened just happened? - and it was utterly disgraceful. This is Uefa’s showpiece event, the biggest and most prestigious match of the season at one of the largest stadiums in Europe which is used to hosting such big matches. And yet the police were, it appeared to me, using pepper spray in the direction of fans who were simply standing patiently holding their tickets and pleading to be allowed in.

    And, by the way, there was not a Uefa official to be seen. I did not see anyone in the hour I was outside the stadium trying to find out what was going on. No-one tried to offer any explanation or help the fans. And I only spoke to fans who had tickets. I made sure of that."

    Next time, @tlg86, @Leon et. al. CHECK YOUR BLOODY FACTS before dredging up your hate-filled preconceived bile. Grrrrrr.

    Hoity toity. Can't stand the heat, don't be the heat correspondent of a national newspaper. A cocaine fueled pig is a cocaine fueled pig however you slice it, and I for one applaud the just and proportionate measures adopted by les garçons en bleu

    And who the fuck takes *children* to these ghastly occasions?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347

    Roger said:
    Yes, Beth Rigbys a nasty piece of work.
    Johnson is knackered, Beth Rigby pushed the rules (no second questions) because she thinks rules don’t apply to her, he made an irritated comment before getting back on track. Hardly a “nasty side”
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 3,145
    And in yet more other news...

    A council that declared bankruptcy last year earlier spent £28,000 on indoor plants which a councillor said are now "dying".

    Slough Borough Council bought the 200 plants for its £41m Observatory House HQ when it moved in 2019.

    Its council leader has said the authority will "almost certainly" move out of it as a result of its £760m borrowing debt.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-61617295

    We all know that mismanagement of public funds by local government is not exactly unheard of, and is a common failing of councillors from different parties - the Northamptonshire County Council fiasco immediately springs to mind - but this is something else. The twenty-eight grand on houseplants is bad enough, but how in the name of God is a tinpot local council either able or permitted to rack up debts of three quarters of a billion pounds?

    That works out at something like £4,500 for every man, woman and child in the area - all ultimately borrowed at the behest of the governing Labour group of about three dozen volunteer, unpaid local worthies, who give the clear impression of either not knowing how to add up or not caring about the necessity of practicing the skill. Are there no rules and no oversight at all?
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Here we go again...

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/may/28/champions-league-final-kick-off-delay-liverpool-real-madrid-paris

    Liverpool said they were “hugely disappointed” by what had unfolded. “Supporters should not have to experience the scenes we have witnessed tonight,” the club said. “We have officially requested a formal investigation into the causes of these unacceptable issues.”

    Liverpool should ask themselves why this happens to them so often.

    Now, the organisation last night was probably shambolic, just as it was at Hillsborough. But turning up 20 minutes before kick off is asking for trouble. Get in the ground early. It’s rule number 1 when you go to a big game.

    Your link says problems began two and a half hours beforehand. It also blames thousands of counterfeit tickets, something we speculated on yesterday.
    Right, so who is to blame for counterfeit tickets?
    Counterfeiters? Touts? Or do you think thousands of fans each fired up Microsoft Word and made their own tickets?
    Erm, how about you don't buy tickets off touts?
    But they were a real bargain…
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 32,102

    tlg86 said:

    Here we go again...

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/may/28/champions-league-final-kick-off-delay-liverpool-real-madrid-paris

    Liverpool said they were “hugely disappointed” by what had unfolded. “Supporters should not have to experience the scenes we have witnessed tonight,” the club said. “We have officially requested a formal investigation into the causes of these unacceptable issues.”

    Liverpool should ask themselves why this happens to them so often.

    Now, the organisation last night was probably shambolic, just as it was at Hillsborough. But turning up 20 minutes before kick off is asking for trouble. Get in the ground early. It’s rule number 1 when you go to a big game.

    From the article you link to:

    ‘In Spanish “security problems” were blamed but the English announcement was clear in pointing the finger at “the late arrival” of fans. That was clearly not the issue, though. If they were late getting into the ground, it was because of disorganisation outside. The former Liverpool CEO, Peter Moore, called it “victim blaming at its very best”.’

    The rapidity with which you and other posters started flinging the mud at Liverpool fans last night, with snide references to Hillsborough, was distasteful, to say the least, whether they booed your precious national anthem or not.
    Many still blame the fans for Hillsborough. The 'drunk late ticketless' narrative got embedded before the facts emerged and the long fight for justice was seen as whining by wallowing-in-victimhood scousers - this perhaps being a more comfortable position than recognizing a smear campaign and cover-up by the police and others.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 23,122
    What is happening to the Uighurs is certainly a genocide, as I have said before - see this article from December 2019 -http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/12/09/lets-talk-about-islamophobia/.

    But I used the word "war" for 2 reasons: the material just released shows the use of army battalions to crush the Uighurs and it is also how Uighur representatives have described it - as a war on their people and culture by the Chinese State.

    I find the claims of "Never Again" which get trotted out at regular intervals on memorial days increasingly hollow.

    "Again and Again" would be more accurate.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,113
    💥 Big scoop by @HarryYorke1 in the Sunday Times today

    Carrie Symonds held a lawbreaking party inside No10, texts suggest. They were made available to Sue Gray, who failed to investigate

    With every day the integrity of her inquiry cast into more doubt
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bed878ec-deb3-11ec-8b54-298329b42224?shareToken=73094a5de763fa29562efdc478972578
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Roger said:
    Yes, Beth Rigbys a nasty piece of work.
    Johnson is knackered, Beth Rigby pushed the rules (no second questions) because she thinks rules don’t apply to her, he made an irritated comment before getting back on track. Hardly a “nasty side”
    Real mask slipping moment. I was genuinely shocked. I know the phatboi bonhomie is an act, but he is usually pretty consistent at keeping it up.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,454
    CD13 said:

    I watched the La Rochelle vs Leinster game on telly in the final of the Heineken Cup yesterday. An all action game from Marseille decided in the final minute. Probably the equivalent of the European Champions Cup in football.

    As usual, the French and Irish flags happily intermingled. I remember taking a few football fans to Sale to see them play Wasps some years ago. They were very surprised to see fans mingling and drinking together at the ground.

    As regards the football, I have a Liverpool post code, but Liverpool have gone off the boil in the last three weeks. It could be a busy season telling on them. I admit to turning it off at half-time. Sorry, Mr Eagles, but they need a summer break. I feel some sympathy for the fans but the Leinster fans will be just as disappointed.

    Playing every single possible game in a season has to have been tough.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,917
    edited May 29
    Scott_xP said:

    💥 Big scoop by @HarryYorke1 in the Sunday Times today

    Carrie Symonds held a lawbreaking party inside No10, texts suggest. They were made available to Sue Gray, who failed to investigate

    With every day the integrity of her inquiry cast into more doubt
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bed878ec-deb3-11ec-8b54-298329b42224?shareToken=73094a5de763fa29562efdc478972578

    Hmm, if those people are not employees then is it within Ms Gray's business as stated in bthe formal remit?

    But

    (a) the visitors would have had to enter the workspace to get to the flat
    (b) it's a tied cottage, so to speak
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    As ever a quality article from @Cyclefree who never ceases to get to the heart of what is rotten with some of our institutions, especially the Police.

    I’m intrigued. Which institutions do you think are not rotten?
    English Heritage.
    They may not be rotten, but their credibility lies in ruins.
    That’s very good indeed 😂
    Why thank you, I’m here all week.
    Try the fish.
    Thank you for chipping in with that.

    And have a good morning.
    And a peasful one.
    Gah! Stop being so mushy! It’s Sunday morning for Cod’s hake
  • RogerRoger Posts: 17,403
    Taz said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The Times reports that Downing Street had access to drafts of Sue Gray's report in advance and intervened to get details of the Abba party in Boris Johnson's flat removed.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/muzzled-how-senior-officials-fought-to-water-down-sue-gray-report-vrw5xk0t6 https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1530627345262219264/photo/1

    BoZo would never do that. Oh, wait...

    The Arcuri inquiry has found Johnson deleted crucial evidence stored in digital devices, email accounts and computer drives before he left as mayor https://www.mylondon.news/news/uk-world-news/boris-johnson-teams-city-hall-24087497.amp

    Hero to zero in ten months. From being a harmless clown he now appears to be reviled. I heard an Any Questions and later Any Answers yesterday and an HIGNFY on Friday and the mood of audience and respondents was of a different order to what we've seen before. Jokes at Johnson's expense weren't even considered a laughing matter. I wouldn't bet your house on him being in post till 2024.
    Just like Mugabe and Saddam, according to you.

    Madness.

    The U.K. under Johnson is like Mugabes Zimbabwe 😂😂😂😂😜
    What was your username before you reinvented yourself as TAZ? I notice several Tory posters took the Lazarus route. You, Asian, Bartholomew, Still Waters, Applicant, Boulay etc. It's almost as though you were embarrassed by who you used to be and who you used to give your fulsome support to.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,565
    A very good morning from the shady banks of the Mktvari River, Tbilisi


  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,032
    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    "I was tear gased by disgraceful French riot police"

    The Sunday Telegraph Chief Football Correspondent

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/05/28/pepper-sprayed-disgraceful-french-riot-police-champions-league/

    "It was outside Gate Y that I was caught in the pepper spray used indiscriminately by French riot police inside the Stade de France. I was talking to Liverpool fans who were waiting patiently, some for up to three hours, to try and get inside the stadium when it wafted into my face, stinging my eyes, lips and tongue. I saw it being sprayed. I could not quite believe it. One fan closer to the spray than me was bent double, retching, as he struggled to cope.

    It was a shock, a complete shock – had what had happened just happened? - and it was utterly disgraceful. This is Uefa’s showpiece event, the biggest and most prestigious match of the season at one of the largest stadiums in Europe which is used to hosting such big matches. And yet the police were, it appeared to me, using pepper spray in the direction of fans who were simply standing patiently holding their tickets and pleading to be allowed in.

    And, by the way, there was not a Uefa official to be seen. I did not see anyone in the hour I was outside the stadium trying to find out what was going on. No-one tried to offer any explanation or help the fans. And I only spoke to fans who had tickets. I made sure of that."

    Next time, @tlg86, @Leon et. al. CHECK YOUR BLOODY FACTS before dredging up your hate-filled preconceived bile. Grrrrrr.

    Hoity toity. Can't stand the heat, don't be the heat correspondent of a national newspaper. A cocaine fueled pig is a cocaine fueled pig however you slice it, and I for one applaud the just and proportionate measures adopted by les garçons en bleu

    And who the fuck takes *children* to these ghastly occasions?
    I have followed Man Utd since 1953 and have been in crowds of 100,000 or more,not least when Utd beat Bayern in the European Cup final in Barcelona, and it can be very scary

    I was trampled on by a police horse outside Old Trafford once, and was at the same end in Hillsborough that the Liverpool disaster happened at a cup semi final and they were passing supporters on that terrace over their heads up to the stand above to avoid the crush

    Your comments frankly show a complete ignorance of football and safety at stadiums, and disrespects the thousands of families who enjoy attending matches
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    "I was tear gased by disgraceful French riot police"

    The Sunday Telegraph Chief Football Correspondent

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/05/28/pepper-sprayed-disgraceful-french-riot-police-champions-league/

    "It was outside Gate Y that I was caught in the pepper spray used indiscriminately by French riot police inside the Stade de France. I was talking to Liverpool fans who were waiting patiently, some for up to three hours, to try and get inside the stadium when it wafted into my face, stinging my eyes, lips and tongue. I saw it being sprayed. I could not quite believe it. One fan closer to the spray than me was bent double, retching, as he struggled to cope.

    It was a shock, a complete shock – had what had happened just happened? - and it was utterly disgraceful. This is Uefa’s showpiece event, the biggest and most prestigious match of the season at one of the largest stadiums in Europe which is used to hosting such big matches. And yet the police were, it appeared to me, using pepper spray in the direction of fans who were simply standing patiently holding their tickets and pleading to be allowed in.

    And, by the way, there was not a Uefa official to be seen. I did not see anyone in the hour I was outside the stadium trying to find out what was going on. No-one tried to offer any explanation or help the fans. And I only spoke to fans who had tickets. I made sure of that."

    Next time, @tlg86, @Leon et. al. CHECK YOUR BLOODY FACTS before dredging up your hate-filled preconceived bile. Grrrrrr.

    Hoity toity. Can't stand the heat, don't be the heat correspondent of a national newspaper. A cocaine fueled pig is a cocaine fueled pig however you slice it, and I for one applaud the just and proportionate measures adopted by les garçons en bleu

    And who the fuck takes *children* to these ghastly occasions?
    I have followed Man Utd since 1953 and have been in crowds of 100,000 or more,not least when Utd beat Bayern in the European Cup final in Barcelona, and it can be very scary

    I was trampled on by a police horse outside Old Trafford once, and was at the same end in Hillsborough that the Liverpool disaster happened at a cup semi final and they were passing supporters on that terrace over their heads up to the stand above to avoid the crush

    Your comments frankly show a complete ignorance of football and safety at stadiums, and disrespects the thousands of families who enjoy attending matches
    Really? I think your experiences exactly bear out what I was saying.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,194
    edited May 29
    Roger said:

    Taz said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The Times reports that Downing Street had access to drafts of Sue Gray's report in advance and intervened to get details of the Abba party in Boris Johnson's flat removed.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/muzzled-how-senior-officials-fought-to-water-down-sue-gray-report-vrw5xk0t6 https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1530627345262219264/photo/1

    BoZo would never do that. Oh, wait...

    The Arcuri inquiry has found Johnson deleted crucial evidence stored in digital devices, email accounts and computer drives before he left as mayor https://www.mylondon.news/news/uk-world-news/boris-johnson-teams-city-hall-24087497.amp

    Hero to zero in ten months. From being a harmless clown he now appears to be reviled. I heard an Any Questions and later Any Answers yesterday and an HIGNFY on Friday and the mood of audience and respondents was of a different order to what we've seen before. Jokes at Johnson's expense weren't even considered a laughing matter. I wouldn't bet your house on him being in post till 2024.
    Just like Mugabe and Saddam, according to you.

    Madness.

    The U.K. under Johnson is like Mugabes Zimbabwe 😂😂😂😂😜
    What was your username before you reinvented yourself as TAZ? I notice several Tory posters took the Lazarus route. You, Asian, Bartholomew, Still Waters, Applicant, Boulay etc. It's almost as though you were embarrassed by who you used to be and who you used to give your fulsome support to.
    I’m a labour voter, you mug. I’ve voted Tory once, since 1987 when I first voted, and that was for a hard working local councillor. He lost. Every general election I’ve voted labour. With varying degrees of enthusiasm.

    Nice way to deflect the idiocy of your comment comparing Johnson and the U.K. unfavourably to Saddam’s Iraq or Mugabes Zimbabwe. Dense beyond belief.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347
    IshmaelZ said:

    Roger said:
    Yes, Beth Rigbys a nasty piece of work.
    Johnson is knackered, Beth Rigby pushed the rules (no second questions) because she thinks rules don’t apply to her, he made an irritated comment before getting back on track. Hardly a “nasty side”
    Real mask slipping moment. I was genuinely shocked. I know the phatboi bonhomie is an act, but he is usually pretty consistent at keeping it up.
    He looks like he hasn’t slept properly for a long time. So, yes, he made a sharp and irritated remark he shouldn’t have. But it was hardly earth shattering
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,244
    edited May 29
    pigeon said:

    And in yet more other news...

    A council that declared bankruptcy last year earlier spent £28,000 on indoor plants which a councillor said are now "dying".

    Slough Borough Council bought the 200 plants for its £41m Observatory House HQ when it moved in 2019.

    Its council leader has said the authority will "almost certainly" move out of it as a result of its £760m borrowing debt.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-61617295

    We all know that mismanagement of public funds by local government is not exactly unheard of, and is a common failing of councillors from different parties - the Northamptonshire County Council fiasco immediately springs to mind - but this is something else. The twenty-eight grand on houseplants is bad enough, but how in the name of God is a tinpot local council either able or permitted to rack up debts of three quarters of a billion pounds?

    That works out at something like £4,500 for every man, woman and child in the area - all ultimately borrowed at the behest of the governing Labour group of about three dozen volunteer, unpaid local worthies, who give the clear impression of either not knowing how to add up or not caring about the necessity of practicing the skill. Are there no rules and no oversight at all?

    Your overall point is very good - how on earth were the council able to rack up so much debt? (they also, very rarely, had their Chief Exec sacked for misconduct) - but I would note that the councillors are not actually entirely unpaid - the basic allowance at Slough appears to be around £8500, which is lower than some and in any case not a salary, but it's not quite being unpaid local worthies. Cabinet Members are essentially full time in many authorities, and get additional allowances to reflect that (all told it could be anyway from, say, 15-45k total for a leader around the country, including basic).

    As for how, the unfortunate confluence of members who don't give a crap about finances, and for whom it is too complicated, with incompetent corporate leadership which it is nigh impossible to fix if that exists. The idea of able cllrs setting direction and monitoring competent officers exists, but there are many many who do not have either.

    This seems a particularly bad example.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,194

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    As ever a quality article from @Cyclefree who never ceases to get to the heart of what is rotten with some of our institutions, especially the Police.

    I’m intrigued. Which institutions do you think are not rotten?
    English Heritage.
    They may not be rotten, but their credibility lies in ruins.
    That’s very good indeed 😂
    Why thank you, I’m here all week.
    Try the fish.
    Thank you for chipping in with that.

    And have a good morning.
    And a peasful one.
    Gah! Stop being so mushy! It’s Sunday morning for Cod’s hake
    These awful puns batter stop.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,453

    CD13 said:

    I watched the La Rochelle vs Leinster game on telly in the final of the Heineken Cup yesterday. An all action game from Marseille decided in the final minute. Probably the equivalent of the European Champions Cup in football.

    As usual, the French and Irish flags happily intermingled. I remember taking a few football fans to Sale to see them play Wasps some years ago. They were very surprised to see fans mingling and drinking together at the ground.

    As regards the football, I have a Liverpool post code, but Liverpool have gone off the boil in the last three weeks. It could be a busy season telling on them. I admit to turning it off at half-time. Sorry, Mr Eagles, but they need a summer break. I feel some sympathy for the fans but the Leinster fans will be just as disappointed.

    Playing every single possible game in a season has to have been tough.
    No goals scored in 3 cup finals is an interesting stat.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 35,287
    Piggott deid.
    Thought he’d gone a while ago tbh, so the shock somewhat diluted.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,766
    Leon said:

    A very good morning from the shady banks of the Mktvari River, Tbilisi


    Looks very nice. But honestly, Georgia, you needn't be so sparing with the vowels. They aren't rationed.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,236
    Leon said:

    A very good morning from the shady banks of the Mktvari River, Tbilisi


    I once went on a study tour of the Soviet Union and we did a boat ride on that river. On the boat I managed to leave my camera. When we got back to Moscow it was sitting waiting for me at the hotel. Some in my group who were that way inclined, claimed this was yet more proof of the fabulous efficiency of the Soviet system. My conclusion was that we were being followed even more closely than I thought.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 10,454
    Foxy said:

    CD13 said:

    I watched the La Rochelle vs Leinster game on telly in the final of the Heineken Cup yesterday. An all action game from Marseille decided in the final minute. Probably the equivalent of the European Champions Cup in football.

    As usual, the French and Irish flags happily intermingled. I remember taking a few football fans to Sale to see them play Wasps some years ago. They were very surprised to see fans mingling and drinking together at the ground.

    As regards the football, I have a Liverpool post code, but Liverpool have gone off the boil in the last three weeks. It could be a busy season telling on them. I admit to turning it off at half-time. Sorry, Mr Eagles, but they need a summer break. I feel some sympathy for the fans but the Leinster fans will be just as disappointed.

    Playing every single possible game in a season has to have been tough.
    No goals scored in 3 cup finals is an interesting stat.
    Hard to have sympathy for Liverpool after winning two cups, but there will be a sense of failure after missing out on the bigger two trophies.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 1,819
    Roger said:

    Taz said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The Times reports that Downing Street had access to drafts of Sue Gray's report in advance and intervened to get details of the Abba party in Boris Johnson's flat removed.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/muzzled-how-senior-officials-fought-to-water-down-sue-gray-report-vrw5xk0t6 https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1530627345262219264/photo/1

    BoZo would never do that. Oh, wait...

    The Arcuri inquiry has found Johnson deleted crucial evidence stored in digital devices, email accounts and computer drives before he left as mayor https://www.mylondon.news/news/uk-world-news/boris-johnson-teams-city-hall-24087497.amp

    Hero to zero in ten months. From being a harmless clown he now appears to be reviled. I heard an Any Questions and later Any Answers yesterday and an HIGNFY on Friday and the mood of audience and respondents was of a different order to what we've seen before. Jokes at Johnson's expense weren't even considered a laughing matter. I wouldn't bet your house on him being in post till 2024.
    Just like Mugabe and Saddam, according to you.

    Madness.

    The U.K. under Johnson is like Mugabes Zimbabwe 😂😂😂😂😜
    What was your username before you reinvented yourself as TAZ? I notice several Tory posters took the Lazarus route. You, Asian, Bartholomew, Still Waters, Applicant, Boulay etc. It's almost as though you were embarrassed by who you used to be and who you used to give your fulsome support to.
    Oh Roger, wrong as usual. I have been “Boulay” since 2013 and before that from 2008 I was a variation of Boulay but had to start this current incarnation as I am a tech idiot and couldn’t use my old identity.

    I’m not entirely sure why it matters to you or who you think I was before but I hope this clarification helps.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,194

    Piggott deid.
    Thought he’d gone a while ago tbh, so the shock somewhat diluted.

    Same here, thought he went years ago.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,870

    CD13 said:

    I watched the La Rochelle vs Leinster game on telly in the final of the Heineken Cup yesterday. An all action game from Marseille decided in the final minute. Probably the equivalent of the European Champions Cup in football.

    As usual, the French and Irish flags happily intermingled. I remember taking a few football fans to Sale to see them play Wasps some years ago. They were very surprised to see fans mingling and drinking together at the ground.

    As regards the football, I have a Liverpool post code, but Liverpool have gone off the boil in the last three weeks. It could be a busy season telling on them. I admit to turning it off at half-time. Sorry, Mr Eagles, but they need a summer break. I feel some sympathy for the fans but the Leinster fans will be just as disappointed.

    Similar mixing in Rugby League. Usually, anyway.
    Football is pretty much the only sport where fans are still routinely segregated.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,244
    edited May 29
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    A very good morning from the shady banks of the Mktvari River, Tbilisi


    Looks very nice. But honestly, Georgia, you needn't be so sparing with the vowels. They aren't rationed.
    A historically ignorant comment. In Georgia they remember the great vowel famine of 1902 very keenly, and so make sure to always have a stockpile ready if needed. #NvrFrgt
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,870
    For those betting on the F1, it’s worth noting that the race director is making good use of the safety car in the support races - in contrast to his predecessor, who preferred the virtual safety car.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,244
    Taz said:

    Roger said:

    Taz said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The Times reports that Downing Street had access to drafts of Sue Gray's report in advance and intervened to get details of the Abba party in Boris Johnson's flat removed.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/muzzled-how-senior-officials-fought-to-water-down-sue-gray-report-vrw5xk0t6 https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1530627345262219264/photo/1

    BoZo would never do that. Oh, wait...

    The Arcuri inquiry has found Johnson deleted crucial evidence stored in digital devices, email accounts and computer drives before he left as mayor https://www.mylondon.news/news/uk-world-news/boris-johnson-teams-city-hall-24087497.amp

    Hero to zero in ten months. From being a harmless clown he now appears to be reviled. I heard an Any Questions and later Any Answers yesterday and an HIGNFY on Friday and the mood of audience and respondents was of a different order to what we've seen before. Jokes at Johnson's expense weren't even considered a laughing matter. I wouldn't bet your house on him being in post till 2024.
    Just like Mugabe and Saddam, according to you.

    Madness.

    The U.K. under Johnson is like Mugabes Zimbabwe 😂😂😂😂😜
    What was your username before you reinvented yourself as TAZ? I notice several Tory posters took the Lazarus route. You, Asian, Bartholomew, Still Waters, Applicant, Boulay etc. It's almost as though you were embarrassed by who you used to be and who you used to give your fulsome support to.
    I’m a labour voter, you mug. I’ve voted Tory once, since 1987 when I first voted, and that was for a hard working local councillor. He lost. Every general election I’ve voted labour. With varying degrees of enthusiasm.

    Nice way to deflect the idiocy of your comment comparing Johnson and the U.K. unfavourably to Saddam’s Iraq or Mugabes Zimbabwe. Dense beyond belief.
    You mean people we disagree with aren't always automatically political opponents? Crazy idea.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,453

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roger said:
    Yes, Beth Rigbys a nasty piece of work.
    Johnson is knackered, Beth Rigby pushed the rules (no second questions) because she thinks rules don’t apply to her, he made an irritated comment before getting back on track. Hardly a “nasty side”
    Real mask slipping moment. I was genuinely shocked. I know the phatboi bonhomie is an act, but he is usually pretty consistent at keeping it up.
    He looks like he hasn’t slept properly for a long time. So, yes, he made a sharp and irritated remark he shouldn’t have. But it was hardly earth shattering
    We see his short and vicious temper when that mask slips. It is quite the tell.

    In just a few short years no one will admit to having voted for him.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,766
    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    A very good morning from the shady banks of the Mktvari River, Tbilisi


    Looks very nice. But honestly, Georgia, you needn't be so sparing with the vowels. They aren't rationed.
    And on the subject of where-in-the-world-am-I, good morning from Falmouth, which is bathed in bright sunshine under clear blue skies, is in full bloom and is basically like being in paradise or something. I would post a photo but I suspect you need your own website or something. Anyway, it's glorious. Beauty whichever way you look.
    A neighbour from home has also come to west Cornwall and while she pronounces herself satisfied, wonders out loud where else she might have got to in the ten hours since leaving her house. But I honestly can't think of anywhere better within ten hours. Helps that the sun is shining, of course.
    St. Ives this morning. We shall meet friends for elevenses in Carbis Bay and walk from there. Never been to St. Ives before. Very excited.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347
    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roger said:
    Yes, Beth Rigbys a nasty piece of work.
    Johnson is knackered, Beth Rigby pushed the rules (no second questions) because she thinks rules don’t apply to her, he made an irritated comment before getting back on track. Hardly a “nasty side”
    Real mask slipping moment. I was genuinely shocked. I know the phatboi bonhomie is an act, but he is usually pretty consistent at keeping it up.
    He looks like he hasn’t slept properly for a long time. So, yes, he made a sharp and irritated remark he shouldn’t have. But it was hardly earth shattering
    We see his short and vicious temper when that mask slips. It is quite the tell.

    In just a few short years no one will admit to having voted for him.
    Boris Derangement Syndrome.

    An irritated remark at someone pushing against pre-agreed boundaries is not the same as a “short and vicious temper”
  • RogerRoger Posts: 17,403
    edited May 29
    Scott_xP said:

    Andrew Rawnsley says: "When that person [at the top of No10] is Mr Johnson, you get a culture of selfish, arrogant, entitled, amoral, narcissistic rule-breaking that combines, in the true spirit of the Bullingdon Club, snobbery with yobbery"

    Ooft
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/29/boris-johnson-has-vomited-over-standards-in-public-life?CMP=share_btn_tw

    Great article. Paints a wonderful picture. Pity they didn't vomit over Lulu Lytle's wallpaper. Could've killed two birds with one stone
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,194
    kle4 said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    A very good morning from the shady banks of the Mktvari River, Tbilisi


    Looks very nice. But honestly, Georgia, you needn't be so sparing with the vowels. They aren't rationed.
    A historically ignorant comment. In Georgia they remember the great vowel famine of 1902 very keenly, and so make sure to always have a stockpile ready if needed. #NvrFrgt
    That would make a Georgian version of countdown interesting.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,236
    edited May 29

    Piggott deid.
    Thought he’d gone a while ago tbh, so the shock somewhat diluted.

    You shouldn't believe everything he told the taxman.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,453
    Sandpit said:

    CD13 said:

    I watched the La Rochelle vs Leinster game on telly in the final of the Heineken Cup yesterday. An all action game from Marseille decided in the final minute. Probably the equivalent of the European Champions Cup in football.

    As usual, the French and Irish flags happily intermingled. I remember taking a few football fans to Sale to see them play Wasps some years ago. They were very surprised to see fans mingling and drinking together at the ground.

    As regards the football, I have a Liverpool post code, but Liverpool have gone off the boil in the last three weeks. It could be a busy season telling on them. I admit to turning it off at half-time. Sorry, Mr Eagles, but they need a summer break. I feel some sympathy for the fans but the Leinster fans will be just as disappointed.

    Similar mixing in Rugby League. Usually, anyway.
    Football is pretty much the only sport where fans are still routinely segregated.
    It isn't just the tribalism of clubs rooted in a locality with its cultures and traditions, it is the working class grass roots support.

    No genteel "well played, sir!" when the opponent scores. Quite right too, I find rugby and cricket crowds rather boring in their support.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 59,660
    Nice summary of Scholz:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61604329

    Line from the article:
    "The SPD traditionally believes peace in Europe can only be achieved by working with, not against Moscow. "

    Sure. If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roger said:
    Yes, Beth Rigbys a nasty piece of work.
    Johnson is knackered, Beth Rigby pushed the rules (no second questions) because she thinks rules don’t apply to her, he made an irritated comment before getting back on track. Hardly a “nasty side”
    Real mask slipping moment. I was genuinely shocked. I know the phatboi bonhomie is an act, but he is usually pretty consistent at keeping it up.
    He looks like he hasn’t slept properly for a long time. So, yes, he made a sharp and irritated remark he shouldn’t have. But it was hardly earth shattering
    We see his short and vicious temper when that mask slips. It is quite the tell.

    In just a few short years no one will admit to having voted for him.
    Boris Derangement Syndrome.

    An irritated remark at someone pushing against pre-agreed boundaries is not the same as a “short and vicious temper”
    What strikes me as deranged is excusing a grown man's discourtesy on the grounds that he is very short of sleep, poor lamb.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,194
    kle4 said:

    Taz said:

    Roger said:

    Taz said:

    Roger said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The Times reports that Downing Street had access to drafts of Sue Gray's report in advance and intervened to get details of the Abba party in Boris Johnson's flat removed.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/muzzled-how-senior-officials-fought-to-water-down-sue-gray-report-vrw5xk0t6 https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1530627345262219264/photo/1

    BoZo would never do that. Oh, wait...

    The Arcuri inquiry has found Johnson deleted crucial evidence stored in digital devices, email accounts and computer drives before he left as mayor https://www.mylondon.news/news/uk-world-news/boris-johnson-teams-city-hall-24087497.amp

    Hero to zero in ten months. From being a harmless clown he now appears to be reviled. I heard an Any Questions and later Any Answers yesterday and an HIGNFY on Friday and the mood of audience and respondents was of a different order to what we've seen before. Jokes at Johnson's expense weren't even considered a laughing matter. I wouldn't bet your house on him being in post till 2024.
    Just like Mugabe and Saddam, according to you.

    Madness.

    The U.K. under Johnson is like Mugabes Zimbabwe 😂😂😂😂😜
    What was your username before you reinvented yourself as TAZ? I notice several Tory posters took the Lazarus route. You, Asian, Bartholomew, Still Waters, Applicant, Boulay etc. It's almost as though you were embarrassed by who you used to be and who you used to give your fulsome support to.
    I’m a labour voter, you mug. I’ve voted Tory once, since 1987 when I first voted, and that was for a hard working local councillor. He lost. Every general election I’ve voted labour. With varying degrees of enthusiasm.

    Nice way to deflect the idiocy of your comment comparing Johnson and the U.K. unfavourably to Saddam’s Iraq or Mugabes Zimbabwe. Dense beyond belief.
    You mean people we disagree with aren't always automatically political opponents? Crazy idea.
    Yes, it is madness. We can only be Tories if we disagree with Roger. 🤔🤔
  • RogerRoger Posts: 17,403
    Sandpit said:

    CD13 said:

    I watched the La Rochelle vs Leinster game on telly in the final of the Heineken Cup yesterday. An all action game from Marseille decided in the final minute. Probably the equivalent of the European Champions Cup in football.

    As usual, the French and Irish flags happily intermingled. I remember taking a few football fans to Sale to see them play Wasps some years ago. They were very surprised to see fans mingling and drinking together at the ground.

    As regards the football, I have a Liverpool post code, but Liverpool have gone off the boil in the last three weeks. It could be a busy season telling on them. I admit to turning it off at half-time. Sorry, Mr Eagles, but they need a summer break. I feel some sympathy for the fans but the Leinster fans will be just as disappointed.

    Similar mixing in Rugby League. Usually, anyway.
    Football is pretty much the only sport where fans are still routinely segregated.
    Orthodox Synagogues?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,453

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roger said:
    Yes, Beth Rigbys a nasty piece of work.
    Johnson is knackered, Beth Rigby pushed the rules (no second questions) because she thinks rules don’t apply to her, he made an irritated comment before getting back on track. Hardly a “nasty side”
    Real mask slipping moment. I was genuinely shocked. I know the phatboi bonhomie is an act, but he is usually pretty consistent at keeping it up.
    He looks like he hasn’t slept properly for a long time. So, yes, he made a sharp and irritated remark he shouldn’t have. But it was hardly earth shattering
    We see his short and vicious temper when that mask slips. It is quite the tell.

    In just a few short years no one will admit to having voted for him.
    Boris Derangement Syndrome.

    An irritated remark at someone pushing against pre-agreed boundaries is not the same as a “short and vicious temper”
    Yeah right, after all Johnson never disrespects boundaries or agreed rules does he?

    Its one rule for him, another for the plebs.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,032
    Mike Lynch on Sophie Ridge accusing Starmer and labour of taking their instructions from the daily mail is hilarious
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,749
    Heathener said:

    tlg86 said:

    Heathener said:

    tlg86 said:

    Here we go again...

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/may/28/champions-league-final-kick-off-delay-liverpool-real-madrid-paris

    Liverpool said they were “hugely disappointed” by what had unfolded. “Supporters should not have to experience the scenes we have witnessed tonight,” the club said. “We have officially requested a formal investigation into the causes of these unacceptable issues.”

    Liverpool should ask themselves why this happens to them so often.

    Now, the organisation last night was probably shambolic, just as it was at Hillsborough. But turning up 20 minutes before kick off is asking for trouble. Get in the ground early. It’s rule number 1 when you go to a big game.

    They did NOT turn up '20 minutes before kick off'

    For the most part they were there 2.5 hours before, as the article itself states.

    Please leave aside the hideous Liverpool-bashing and just deal with the facts.

    A few posters on here should hang their heads in shame and apologise, including to TSE.



    Clearly plenty of Liverpool fans had got in 15 minutes before kick off. But clearly almost every Real fan was in 15 minutes before kick off.

    So which is it? Were Liverpool fans treated worse than Real fans or did Liverpool fans do something different to Real fans?
    Liverpool fans arrived "with hours to spare" and were pushed through a bottleneck and then entry gates were kept shut. They were then tear gased.

    If you don't know what the hell you are talking about don't talk.

    From that left-wing rag the Sunday Telegraph:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/05/28/champions-league-final-kick-off-delayed-severe-fan-congestion/

    "Fans were caught in bottlenecks despite arriving at the stadium with hours to spare, with the organisation around the arena described as "shambolic" as the chaotic situation left many supporters fearing for their safety.

    Pepper spray was also used on fans, with UEFA now facing serious questions over safety and policing as many children were left in tears, some after being pepper sprayed."


    I suspect the French authorities were aware that thousands of Liverpool fans were going to turn up at the stadium without tickets or with fake tickets.

    If I were a Liverpool fan without a ticket I could certainly see the attraction of making a weekend of it in Paris, soaking up the atmosphere and watching the game in a bar. But the question I would like you to address is why did thousands go to the stadium without a ticket? The only logical explanation seems to me is that it was with the intention of forcing their way in. It's not as though they don't have form.

    I doubt the French authorities covered themselves in glory and I feel sorry for genuine fans who got treated badly but I think you will find that most people are asking why is it always Liverpool fans?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    CD13 said:

    I watched the La Rochelle vs Leinster game on telly in the final of the Heineken Cup yesterday. An all action game from Marseille decided in the final minute. Probably the equivalent of the European Champions Cup in football.

    As usual, the French and Irish flags happily intermingled. I remember taking a few football fans to Sale to see them play Wasps some years ago. They were very surprised to see fans mingling and drinking together at the ground.

    As regards the football, I have a Liverpool post code, but Liverpool have gone off the boil in the last three weeks. It could be a busy season telling on them. I admit to turning it off at half-time. Sorry, Mr Eagles, but they need a summer break. I feel some sympathy for the fans but the Leinster fans will be just as disappointed.

    Similar mixing in Rugby League. Usually, anyway.
    Football is pretty much the only sport where fans are still routinely segregated.
    It isn't just the tribalism of clubs rooted in a locality with its cultures and traditions, it is the working class grass roots support.

    No genteel "well played, sir!" when the opponent scores. Quite right too, I find rugby and cricket crowds rather boring in their support.
    Ooh, edgy. On the plus side rugby and cricket crowds do tend not to kill people, which is not nothing.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,236

    Nice summary of Scholz:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61604329

    Line from the article:
    "The SPD traditionally believes peace in Europe can only be achieved by working with, not against Moscow. "

    Sure. If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you.

    The failure to deliver the tanks the Germans promised is one of the reasons that Ukraine is losing the Donbas.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 9,866
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    CD13 said:

    I watched the La Rochelle vs Leinster game on telly in the final of the Heineken Cup yesterday. An all action game from Marseille decided in the final minute. Probably the equivalent of the European Champions Cup in football.

    As usual, the French and Irish flags happily intermingled. I remember taking a few football fans to Sale to see them play Wasps some years ago. They were very surprised to see fans mingling and drinking together at the ground.

    As regards the football, I have a Liverpool post code, but Liverpool have gone off the boil in the last three weeks. It could be a busy season telling on them. I admit to turning it off at half-time. Sorry, Mr Eagles, but they need a summer break. I feel some sympathy for the fans but the Leinster fans will be just as disappointed.

    Similar mixing in Rugby League. Usually, anyway.
    Football is pretty much the only sport where fans are still routinely segregated.
    It isn't just the tribalism of clubs rooted in a locality with its cultures and traditions, it is the working class grass roots support.

    No genteel "well played, sir!" when the opponent scores. Quite right too, I find rugby and cricket crowds rather boring in their support.
    Indeed and that's part of the reason why until a few years ago Liverpool and Everton fans would mix in the stadium. Because contrary to common belief there is no sectarian divide between the club's and family members would support either club so families would happily sit together wearing opposite shirts and carrying opposite scarves. Because despite the rivalry, the community values each other over the rivalry.

    Old Firm and other clubs with a sectarian rivalry could never have done the same thing.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roger said:
    Yes, Beth Rigbys a nasty piece of work.
    Johnson is knackered, Beth Rigby pushed the rules (no second questions) because she thinks rules don’t apply to her, he made an irritated comment before getting back on track. Hardly a “nasty side”
    Real mask slipping moment. I was genuinely shocked. I know the phatboi bonhomie is an act, but he is usually pretty consistent at keeping it up.
    He looks like he hasn’t slept properly for a long time. So, yes, he made a sharp and irritated remark he shouldn’t have. But it was hardly earth shattering
    We see his short and vicious temper when that mask slips. It is quite the tell.

    In just a few short years no one will admit to having voted for him.
    Boris Derangement Syndrome.

    An irritated remark at someone pushing against pre-agreed boundaries is not the same as a “short and vicious temper”

    The only people who suffer from Boris Derangement Syndrome are those who, despite all the evidence of his venality and lies, still make excuses for him.

    The guy’s a nasty piece of work (like most successful politicians). He’s not a great prime minister.

    But people are massively over-egging a simple remark. He was tired and got pissed off with Beth Rigby. He made a sharp remark that he cut off halfway through as his brain caught up with his mouth and went back to his prepared script.

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,286
    edited May 29

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Here we go again...

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/may/28/champions-league-final-kick-off-delay-liverpool-real-madrid-paris

    Liverpool said they were “hugely disappointed” by what had unfolded. “Supporters should not have to experience the scenes we have witnessed tonight,” the club said. “We have officially requested a formal investigation into the causes of these unacceptable issues.”

    Liverpool should ask themselves why this happens to them so often.

    Now, the organisation last night was probably shambolic, just as it was at Hillsborough. But turning up 20 minutes before kick off is asking for trouble. Get in the ground early. It’s rule number 1 when you go to a big game.

    Your link says problems began two and a half hours beforehand. It also blames thousands of counterfeit tickets, something we speculated on yesterday.
    Right, so who is to blame for counterfeit tickets?
    Counterfeiters? Touts? Or do you think thousands of fans each fired up Microsoft Word and made their own tickets?
    Erm, how about you don't buy tickets off touts?
    But they were a real bargain…
    Not a bargain. Generally, tickets bought from touts are far more expensive than from the original seller. That is, after all, the business model of touting. Buy lots of tickets, thus creating or more likely exacerbating a shortage, then sell on at a premium to genuine fans.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347
    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roger said:
    Yes, Beth Rigbys a nasty piece of work.
    Johnson is knackered, Beth Rigby pushed the rules (no second questions) because she thinks rules don’t apply to her, he made an irritated comment before getting back on track. Hardly a “nasty side”
    Real mask slipping moment. I was genuinely shocked. I know the phatboi bonhomie is an act, but he is usually pretty consistent at keeping it up.
    He looks like he hasn’t slept properly for a long time. So, yes, he made a sharp and irritated remark he shouldn’t have. But it was hardly earth shattering
    We see his short and vicious temper when that mask slips. It is quite the tell.

    In just a few short years no one will admit to having voted for him.
    Boris Derangement Syndrome.

    An irritated remark at someone pushing against pre-agreed boundaries is not the same as a “short and vicious temper”
    What strikes me as deranged is excusing a grown man's discourtesy on the grounds that he is very short of sleep, poor lamb.
    It’s amazing how many people don’t understand the difference between “excusing” and “explaining”.

    It was an error. But symptomatic of very little.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,244

    Nice summary of Scholz:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61604329

    Line from the article:
    "The SPD traditionally believes peace in Europe can only be achieved by working with, not against Moscow. "

    Sure. If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you.

    In more regular times that might have been working, but you cannot stick to a position when the facts change so dramatically. The launching of an actual war of conquest (they don't even seem to be pretending it is something else anymore, with the raising of Russia flags, citizenship moves and transplanting populations) rather changed the game - peace is already gone, tactics to maintain it before it was lost are like believing dam failure is prevented by regular monitoring, but not changing tack and reacting when it springs a great big leak.

    Had an interesting discussion with a family member who is very apolitical normally, and I was amazed how bullish they were about the whole Russian situation. Whereas I can understand the reluctance of western powers to intervene directly, devastating as that is for Ukraine, they were of the view that if Putin is mad enough to use nuclear weapons if we intervened, he's mad enough to use them for other reasons, and so we simply cannot let him seize eastern Ukraine and make the rest of the country unviable, economically.

    Now, many will disagree with that anecdotal view of course, but it was interesting to me how strongly they felt about it, how emotionally they put it
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,565
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    A very good morning from the shady banks of the Mktvari River, Tbilisi


    Looks very nice. But honestly, Georgia, you needn't be so sparing with the vowels. They aren't rationed.
    And on the subject of where-in-the-world-am-I, good morning from Falmouth, which is bathed in bright sunshine under clear blue skies, is in full bloom and is basically like being in paradise or something. I would post a photo but I suspect you need your own website or something. Anyway, it's glorious. Beauty whichever way you look.
    A neighbour from home has also come to west Cornwall and while she pronounces herself satisfied, wonders out loud where else she might have got to in the ten hours since leaving her house. But I honestly can't think of anywhere better within ten hours. Helps that the sun is shining, of course.
    St. Ives this morning. We shall meet friends for elevenses in Carbis Bay and walk from there. Never been to St. Ives before. Very excited.
    Enjoy. Whatever you do, don’t take a car in to St Ives. In fact I wouldn’t even drive to Carbis Bay.

    Drive to Hayle or St Erth and get the gorgeous little train into St Ives that runs along the cliffs. Wonderful. Costs pennies

    St Ives will be crowded on a nice late Spring weekend in half term but it is always pretty. Especially in the sun

    You can escape the crowds by walking past the Tate and the last town beach and heading up the long walk to mystical Zennor. Which is wild and brilliant but will take several hours - not for kids

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,700
    Foxy said:

    One of the problems ticketing these matches (and similar ones like FA Cup final, Playoff finals etc) is that not enough tickets go to the clubs, but rather to UEFA/FA/sponsors approved people, who often then sell them on. This creates a secondary market, and the fake ticket scam.

    Actually selling a higher allocation via the clubs would mean the Clubs could vet the people going, and keep out the undesireables. It would knock on the head some low level corruption by UEFA/FA/sponsors etc too.

    The club allocation last night was 20,000, which was the same as in 2006 at the same venue. I agree that more tickets should go to the clubs, but it’s not something that has got worse in the last few years.

    And actually, where the fans mix in the other seats, there isn’t any trouble, though I guess that might have something to do with those fans being quite well off to be able to pay the silly money.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roger said:
    Yes, Beth Rigbys a nasty piece of work.
    Johnson is knackered, Beth Rigby pushed the rules (no second questions) because she thinks rules don’t apply to her, he made an irritated comment before getting back on track. Hardly a “nasty side”
    Real mask slipping moment. I was genuinely shocked. I know the phatboi bonhomie is an act, but he is usually pretty consistent at keeping it up.
    He looks like he hasn’t slept properly for a long time. So, yes, he made a sharp and irritated remark he shouldn’t have. But it was hardly earth shattering
    We see his short and vicious temper when that mask slips. It is quite the tell.

    In just a few short years no one will admit to having voted for him.
    Boris Derangement Syndrome.

    An irritated remark at someone pushing against pre-agreed boundaries is not the same as a “short and vicious temper”
    Yeah right, after all Johnson never disrespects boundaries or agreed rules does he?

    Its one rule for him, another for the plebs.
    Sigh. Just want to use Labour attack lines then. This particular incident is very thin gruel.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,286

    Nice summary of Scholz:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61604329

    Line from the article:
    "The SPD traditionally believes peace in Europe can only be achieved by working with, not against Moscow. "

    Sure. If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you.

    That is close to President Trump's view. Bear that in mind if he is re-elected two years from now.
  • KeystoneKeystone Posts: 89

    Sad to say, but when Liverpool FC travel, their fans travel with a terrible history and ongoing reputation.

    It is hard to blame any organiser who requires special measures to deal with them ahead of letting them into the stadium. That is not being anti-Liverpool. Equally, it is not being anti-Liverpool to note that Real Madrid fans weren't pepper-sprayed, as they made their way to their seats. They were no problem, as Nottingham Forest fans were no problem as they went into Hillsborough in 1989.

    Organisers take the view that, for whatever reason, over-exuberant Liverpool fans getting into a ground present a particular and unique challenge. Liverpool fans need to earn a reappraisal of that approach. They did nothing to earn it yesterday.

    In defence of the decent majority, there seems to be a generation of younger football fans who haven't been adequately socialised.

    I didn't attend the Euros final at Wembley but I heard the walk from Wembley Park was Dante-esque. The disabled entrance was stormed there, IIRC.

    I do wonder if this has something to do with the high price of Premier and Championship tickets - you won't get much change from £100 if you factor in drinks and a bite. It's a lot for the under 30s these days.

    Which is a long-winded way of saying - perhaps Liverpool fans aren't the outliers people imagine.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 46,938
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    A very good morning from the shady banks of the Mktvari River, Tbilisi


    Looks very nice. But honestly, Georgia, you needn't be so sparing with the vowels. They aren't rationed.
    And on the subject of where-in-the-world-am-I, good morning from Falmouth, which is bathed in bright sunshine under clear blue skies, is in full bloom and is basically like being in paradise or something. I would post a photo but I suspect you need your own website or something. Anyway, it's glorious. Beauty whichever way you look.
    A neighbour from home has also come to west Cornwall and while she pronounces herself satisfied, wonders out loud where else she might have got to in the ten hours since leaving her house. But I honestly can't think of anywhere better within ten hours. Helps that the sun is shining, of course.
    St. Ives this morning. We shall meet friends for elevenses in Carbis Bay and walk from there. Never been to St. Ives before. Very excited.
    Enjoy. Whatever you do, don’t take a car in to St Ives. In fact I wouldn’t even drive to Carbis Bay.

    Drive to Hayle or St Erth and get the gorgeous little train into St Ives that runs along the cliffs. Wonderful. Costs pennies

    St Ives will be crowded on a nice late Spring weekend in half term but it is always pretty. Especially in the sun

    You can escape the crowds by walking past the Tate and the last town beach and heading up the long walk to mystical Zennor. Which is wild and brilliant but will take several hours - not for kids

    I once reversed the entire way round the St. Ives one-way system. I could see where I wanted to get to, but there appeared to be no way to actually get there...

  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347

    Nice summary of Scholz:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61604329

    Line from the article:
    "The SPD traditionally believes peace in Europe can only be achieved by working with, not against Moscow. "

    Sure. If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you.

    That is close to President Trump's view. Bear that in mind if he is re-elected two years from now.
    I don’t think Trump was “pro-Russia”. I think he was pro associating himself with someone who he saw as a successful “capo de capo”. He may have a different view in 2024 if (and I hope he doesn’t) he wins again
  • TresTres Posts: 1,347
    edited May 29
    Keystone said:

    Sad to say, but when Liverpool FC travel, their fans travel with a terrible history and ongoing reputation.

    It is hard to blame any organiser who requires special measures to deal with them ahead of letting them into the stadium. That is not being anti-Liverpool. Equally, it is not being anti-Liverpool to note that Real Madrid fans weren't pepper-sprayed, as they made their way to their seats. They were no problem, as Nottingham Forest fans were no problem as they went into Hillsborough in 1989.

    Organisers take the view that, for whatever reason, over-exuberant Liverpool fans getting into a ground present a particular and unique challenge. Liverpool fans need to earn a reappraisal of that approach. They did nothing to earn it yesterday.

    In defence of the decent majority, there seems to be a generation of younger football fans who haven't been adequately socialised.

    I didn't attend the Euros final at Wembley but I heard the walk from Wembley Park was Dante-esque. The disabled entrance was stormed there, IIRC.

    I do wonder if this has something to do with the high price of Premier and Championship tickets - you won't get much change from £100 if you factor in drinks and a bite. It's a lot for the under 30s these days.

    Which is a long-winded way of saying - perhaps Liverpool fans aren't the outliers people imagine.
    The problems at the Euros were mainly middle-aged men off their tits on booze and coke.
  • KeystoneKeystone Posts: 89
    Leon said:

    A very good morning from the shady banks of the Mktvari River, Tbilisi


    I hear no visit is complete without sampling the Ur-wine fermented in a horse bladder. Unforgettable.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roger said:
    Yes, Beth Rigbys a nasty piece of work.
    Johnson is knackered, Beth Rigby pushed the rules (no second questions) because she thinks rules don’t apply to her, he made an irritated comment before getting back on track. Hardly a “nasty side”
    Real mask slipping moment. I was genuinely shocked. I know the phatboi bonhomie is an act, but he is usually pretty consistent at keeping it up.
    He looks like he hasn’t slept properly for a long time. So, yes, he made a sharp and irritated remark he shouldn’t have. But it was hardly earth shattering
    We see his short and vicious temper when that mask slips. It is quite the tell.

    In just a few short years no one will admit to having voted for him.
    Boris Derangement Syndrome.

    An irritated remark at someone pushing against pre-agreed boundaries is not the same as a “short and vicious temper”
    What strikes me as deranged is excusing a grown man's discourtesy on the grounds that he is very short of sleep, poor lamb.
    It’s amazing how many people don’t understand the difference between “excusing” and “explaining”.

    It was an error. But symptomatic of very little.
    I see. So you are agreeing that Johnson is a nasty bit of work, and explaining the mask slippage which revealed this fact. Good that we cleared that up
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347
    Keystone said:

    Leon said:

    A very good morning from the shady banks of the Mktvari River, Tbilisi


    I hear no visit is complete without sampling the Ur-wine fermented in a horse bladder. Unforgettable.
    It’s not clear that you view it as a positive experience…
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 41,870
    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    One of the problems ticketing these matches (and similar ones like FA Cup final, Playoff finals etc) is that not enough tickets go to the clubs, but rather to UEFA/FA/sponsors approved people, who often then sell them on. This creates a secondary market, and the fake ticket scam.

    Actually selling a higher allocation via the clubs would mean the Clubs could vet the people going, and keep out the undesireables. It would knock on the head some low level corruption by UEFA/FA/sponsors etc too.

    The club allocation last night was 20,000, which was the same as in 2006 at the same venue. I agree that more tickets should go to the clubs, but it’s not something that has got worse in the last few years.

    And actually, where the fans mix in the other seats, there isn’t any trouble, though I guess that might have something to do with those fans being quite well off to be able to pay the silly money.
    So, in an 80,000 seater stadium, only half the tickets went to the clubs. There’s your problem.

    Yes, the mixed fans in the prawn sandwich seats will generally be well behaved - they’ve either got tickets from a work relationship, paid a fortune or won them from a sponsor.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 7,766
    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    A very good morning from the shady banks of the Mktvari River, Tbilisi


    Looks very nice. But honestly, Georgia, you needn't be so sparing with the vowels. They aren't rationed.
    And on the subject of where-in-the-world-am-I, good morning from Falmouth, which is bathed in bright sunshine under clear blue skies, is in full bloom and is basically like being in paradise or something. I would post a photo but I suspect you need your own website or something. Anyway, it's glorious. Beauty whichever way you look.
    A neighbour from home has also come to west Cornwall and while she pronounces herself satisfied, wonders out loud where else she might have got to in the ten hours since leaving her house. But I honestly can't think of anywhere better within ten hours. Helps that the sun is shining, of course.
    St. Ives this morning. We shall meet friends for elevenses in Carbis Bay and walk from there. Never been to St. Ives before. Very excited.
    Enjoy. Whatever you do, don’t take a car in to St Ives. In fact I wouldn’t even drive to Carbis Bay.

    Drive to Hayle or St Erth and get the gorgeous little train into St Ives that runs along the cliffs. Wonderful. Costs pennies

    St Ives will be crowded on a nice late Spring weekend in half term but it is always pretty. Especially in the sun

    You can escape the crowds by walking past the Tate and the last town beach and heading up the long walk to mystical Zennor. Which is wild and brilliant but will take several hours - not for kids

    Thanks. I had wanted to take the train - but we have friends, and, apparently, a parking space in Cabis Bay.
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,819
    I’ve been to Stade de France a couple times. It’s awful, we have often ended up missing the start of games despite arriving early where they were nowhere near fully booked. There is no organisation, they open and close random entrances at will without communicating it to their ground staff who seem as surprised as the fans. They really don’t know what they are doing. It’s not for for purpose, I’ve no doubt it’s entirely their fault and nothing to do with the Liverpool fans.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roger said:
    Yes, Beth Rigbys a nasty piece of work.
    Johnson is knackered, Beth Rigby pushed the rules (no second questions) because she thinks rules don’t apply to her, he made an irritated comment before getting back on track. Hardly a “nasty side”
    Real mask slipping moment. I was genuinely shocked. I know the phatboi bonhomie is an act, but he is usually pretty consistent at keeping it up.
    He looks like he hasn’t slept properly for a long time. So, yes, he made a sharp and irritated remark he shouldn’t have. But it was hardly earth shattering
    We see his short and vicious temper when that mask slips. It is quite the tell.

    In just a few short years no one will admit to having voted for him.
    Boris Derangement Syndrome.

    An irritated remark at someone pushing against pre-agreed boundaries is not the same as a “short and vicious temper”
    What strikes me as deranged is excusing a grown man's discourtesy on the grounds that he is very short of sleep, poor lamb.
    It’s amazing how many people don’t understand the difference between “excusing” and “explaining”.

    It was an error. But symptomatic of very little.
    I see. So you are agreeing that Johnson is a nasty bit of work, and explaining the mask slippage which revealed this fact. Good that we cleared that up
    Not quite. I happen to know he is a nasty piece of work, but I don’t think this particular incident is proof that he is.

    (Having read back your earlier post I’d certainly agree it was discourteous)
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,035

    Nice summary of Scholz:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61604329

    Line from the article:
    "The SPD traditionally believes peace in Europe can only be achieved by working with, not against Moscow. "

    Sure. If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you.

    That is close to President Trump's view. Bear that in mind if he is re-elected two years from now.
    It was also the view of almost every Western politician back in... January.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,917

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roger said:
    Yes, Beth Rigbys a nasty piece of work.
    Johnson is knackered, Beth Rigby pushed the rules (no second questions) because she thinks rules don’t apply to her, he made an irritated comment before getting back on track. Hardly a “nasty side”
    Real mask slipping moment. I was genuinely shocked. I know the phatboi bonhomie is an act, but he is usually pretty consistent at keeping it up.
    He looks like he hasn’t slept properly for a long time. So, yes, he made a sharp and irritated remark he shouldn’t have. But it was hardly earth shattering
    We see his short and vicious temper when that mask slips. It is quite the tell.

    In just a few short years no one will admit to having voted for him.
    Boris Derangement Syndrome.

    An irritated remark at someone pushing against pre-agreed boundaries is not the same as a “short and vicious temper”
    What strikes me as deranged is excusing a grown man's discourtesy on the grounds that he is very short of sleep, poor lamb.
    It’s amazing how many people don’t understand the difference between “excusing” and “explaining”.

    It was an error. But symptomatic of very little.
    I hate to take the Boris side of an argument, but for once the fan boys are right! Had to happen sooner or later I suppose, but that remark is nothing at all, not sure it is even an error.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roger said:
    Yes, Beth Rigbys a nasty piece of work.
    Johnson is knackered, Beth Rigby pushed the rules (no second questions) because she thinks rules don’t apply to her, he made an irritated comment before getting back on track. Hardly a “nasty side”
    Real mask slipping moment. I was genuinely shocked. I know the phatboi bonhomie is an act, but he is usually pretty consistent at keeping it up.
    He looks like he hasn’t slept properly for a long time. So, yes, he made a sharp and irritated remark he shouldn’t have. But it was hardly earth shattering
    We see his short and vicious temper when that mask slips. It is quite the tell.

    In just a few short years no one will admit to having voted for him.
    Boris Derangement Syndrome.

    An irritated remark at someone pushing against pre-agreed boundaries is not the same as a “short and vicious temper”
    What strikes me as deranged is excusing a grown man's discourtesy on the grounds that he is very short of sleep, poor lamb.
    It’s amazing how many people don’t understand the difference between “excusing” and “explaining”.

    It was an error. But symptomatic of very little.
    I hate to take the Boris side of an argument, but for once the fan boys are right! Had to happen sooner or later I suppose, but that remark is nothing at all, not sure it is even an error.
    Always an error to lose your cool on tape.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,286

    Nice summary of Scholz:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61604329

    Line from the article:
    "The SPD traditionally believes peace in Europe can only be achieved by working with, not against Moscow. "

    Sure. If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you.

    That is close to President Trump's view. Bear that in mind if he is re-elected two years from now.
    I don’t think Trump was “pro-Russia”. I think he was pro associating himself with someone who he saw as a successful “capo de capo”. He may have a different view in 2024 if (and I hope he doesn’t) he wins again
    Trump has long advocated cooperation with Russia. Trump sees China as the main threat to American hegemony, and has done for decades.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,322

    Leon said:

    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    Leon said:

    A very good morning from the shady banks of the Mktvari River, Tbilisi


    Looks very nice. But honestly, Georgia, you needn't be so sparing with the vowels. They aren't rationed.
    And on the subject of where-in-the-world-am-I, good morning from Falmouth, which is bathed in bright sunshine under clear blue skies, is in full bloom and is basically like being in paradise or something. I would post a photo but I suspect you need your own website or something. Anyway, it's glorious. Beauty whichever way you look.
    A neighbour from home has also come to west Cornwall and while she pronounces herself satisfied, wonders out loud where else she might have got to in the ten hours since leaving her house. But I honestly can't think of anywhere better within ten hours. Helps that the sun is shining, of course.
    St. Ives this morning. We shall meet friends for elevenses in Carbis Bay and walk from there. Never been to St. Ives before. Very excited.
    Enjoy. Whatever you do, don’t take a car in to St Ives. In fact I wouldn’t even drive to Carbis Bay.

    Drive to Hayle or St Erth and get the gorgeous little train into St Ives that runs along the cliffs. Wonderful. Costs pennies

    St Ives will be crowded on a nice late Spring weekend in half term but it is always pretty. Especially in the sun

    You can escape the crowds by walking past the Tate and the last town beach and heading up the long walk to mystical Zennor. Which is wild and brilliant but will take several hours - not for kids

    I once reversed the entire way round the St. Ives one-way system. I could see where I wanted to get to, but there appeared to be no way to actually get there...

    You are @Dura_Ace and I claim my £5 :D:D
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,421

    Nice summary of Scholz:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61604329

    Line from the article:
    "The SPD traditionally believes peace in Europe can only be achieved by working with, not against Moscow. "

    Sure. If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you.

    That is close to President Trump's view. Bear that in mind if he is re-elected two years from now.
    I don’t think Trump was “pro-Russia”. I think he was pro associating himself with someone who he saw as a successful “capo de capo”. He may have a different view in 2024 if (and I hope he doesn’t) he wins again
    Why is he going to change his mind? Because of his enquiring intellect and scrupulous ethics?

    A socially conservative, hyper-nationalist autocracy is an end goal for him; not something to be reviled.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,322
    DavidL said:

    The Uighur genocide is a genocide, not a war. Words have meanings.

    Agreed.

    And as for @Cyclefree's other points, the world has a lot wrong with it and it is probably going to stay that way for some time.

    I was reflecting a few days ago on the fact that the UN "Security" Council has 5 permanent members made up of:

    One nation controlled by a warmonger
    One nation conducting a genocide
    One nation in full insular nationalism mode
    One nation tearing itself in half politically thanks to Trump
    The French

    The French are, of course, particularly egregious. Can't even get a football match started on time.
    I would not know. I never watch football, although I can tell when there has been a big sporting event as the politics posts on here are far harder to find than normal :D
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 15,917

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roger said:
    Yes, Beth Rigbys a nasty piece of work.
    Johnson is knackered, Beth Rigby pushed the rules (no second questions) because she thinks rules don’t apply to her, he made an irritated comment before getting back on track. Hardly a “nasty side”
    Real mask slipping moment. I was genuinely shocked. I know the phatboi bonhomie is an act, but he is usually pretty consistent at keeping it up.
    He looks like he hasn’t slept properly for a long time. So, yes, he made a sharp and irritated remark he shouldn’t have. But it was hardly earth shattering
    We see his short and vicious temper when that mask slips. It is quite the tell.

    In just a few short years no one will admit to having voted for him.
    Boris Derangement Syndrome.

    An irritated remark at someone pushing against pre-agreed boundaries is not the same as a “short and vicious temper”
    What strikes me as deranged is excusing a grown man's discourtesy on the grounds that he is very short of sleep, poor lamb.
    It’s amazing how many people don’t understand the difference between “excusing” and “explaining”.

    It was an error. But symptomatic of very little.
    I hate to take the Boris side of an argument, but for once the fan boys are right! Had to happen sooner or later I suppose, but that remark is nothing at all, not sure it is even an error.
    Always an error to lose your cool on tape.
    In a press conference part of his job is to both manage the schedule and more importantly limit any probing that extra questions allow. He is (tactically) right to discourage them if they have been limited to 1 question.

    I think he was expressing annoyance rather than losing his cool.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347

    Nice summary of Scholz:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61604329

    Line from the article:
    "The SPD traditionally believes peace in Europe can only be achieved by working with, not against Moscow. "

    Sure. If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you.

    That is close to President Trump's view. Bear that in mind if he is re-elected two years from now.
    I don’t think Trump was “pro-Russia”. I think he was pro associating himself with someone who he saw as a successful “capo de capo”. He may have a different view in 2024 if (and I hope he doesn’t) he wins again
    Trump has long advocated cooperation with Russia. Trump sees China as the main threat to American hegemony, and has done for decades.
    I agree with the second part, although think you are doing him too much credit to suggest that explains the first! I think he’s just a venal little man who thought he saw an edge and was willing to make the necessary compromises
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,640
    "Why are YOU allowed to ... ?"

    is what a lot of people in the country are thinking. But for most people, it's Boris they're asking.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347
    Dura_Ace said:

    Nice summary of Scholz:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61604329

    Line from the article:
    "The SPD traditionally believes peace in Europe can only be achieved by working with, not against Moscow. "

    Sure. If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you.

    That is close to President Trump's view. Bear that in mind if he is re-elected two years from now.
    I don’t think Trump was “pro-Russia”. I think he was pro associating himself with someone who he saw as a successful “capo de capo”. He may have a different view in 2024 if (and I hope he doesn’t) he wins again
    Why is he going to change his mind? Because of his enquiring intellect and scrupulous ethics?

    A socially conservative, hyper-nationalist autocracy is an end goal for him; not something to be reviled.
    Depends whether Putin is (a) still in power and (b) is still seen as successful.

    If Russia successfully “wins” (as defined in an independent manner) in Ukraine then I think Trump will be keen to associate himself with then. If Putin/Russia is humbled then he will be less keen.
  • KeystoneKeystone Posts: 89
    Tres said:

    Keystone said:

    Sad to say, but when Liverpool FC travel, their fans travel with a terrible history and ongoing reputation.

    It is hard to blame any organiser who requires special measures to deal with them ahead of letting them into the stadium. That is not being anti-Liverpool. Equally, it is not being anti-Liverpool to note that Real Madrid fans weren't pepper-sprayed, as they made their way to their seats. They were no problem, as Nottingham Forest fans were no problem as they went into Hillsborough in 1989.

    Organisers take the view that, for whatever reason, over-exuberant Liverpool fans getting into a ground present a particular and unique challenge. Liverpool fans need to earn a reappraisal of that approach. They did nothing to earn it yesterday.

    In defence of the decent majority, there seems to be a generation of younger football fans who haven't been adequately socialised.

    I didn't attend the Euros final at Wembley but I heard the walk from Wembley Park was Dante-esque. The disabled entrance was stormed there, IIRC.

    I do wonder if this has something to do with the high price of Premier and Championship tickets - you won't get much change from £100 if you factor in drinks and a bite. It's a lot for the under 30s these days.

    Which is a long-winded way of saying - perhaps Liverpool fans aren't the outliers people imagine.
    The problems at the Euros were mainly middle-aged men off their tits on booze and coke.
    It's all a question of perception.

    If you're an Old Etonian, it's merely high jinks...
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347

    IshmaelZ said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Roger said:
    Yes, Beth Rigbys a nasty piece of work.
    Johnson is knackered, Beth Rigby pushed the rules (no second questions) because she thinks rules don’t apply to her, he made an irritated comment before getting back on track. Hardly a “nasty side”
    Real mask slipping moment. I was genuinely shocked. I know the phatboi bonhomie is an act, but he is usually pretty consistent at keeping it up.
    He looks like he hasn’t slept properly for a long time. So, yes, he made a sharp and irritated remark he shouldn’t have. But it was hardly earth shattering
    We see his short and vicious temper when that mask slips. It is quite the tell.

    In just a few short years no one will admit to having voted for him.
    Boris Derangement Syndrome.

    An irritated remark at someone pushing against pre-agreed boundaries is not the same as a “short and vicious temper”
    What strikes me as deranged is excusing a grown man's discourtesy on the grounds that he is very short of sleep, poor lamb.
    It’s amazing how many people don’t understand the difference between “excusing” and “explaining”.

    It was an error. But symptomatic of very little.
    I hate to take the Boris side of an argument, but for once the fan boys are right! Had to happen sooner or later I suppose, but that remark is nothing at all, not sure it is even an error.
    Always an error to lose your cool on tape.
    In a press conference part of his job is to both manage the schedule and more importantly limit any probing that extra questions allow. He is (tactically) right to discourage them if they have been limited to 1 question.

    I think he was expressing annoyance rather than losing his cool.
    Fair point. But I think he could have handled it better. “I’m sorry, Beth, there are other people here who want to ask questions and we only have limited time.”

    That runs the risk that the next questioner gives up their time to Sky but I’m not sure that is likely and he can blather through another answer if necessary
  • prh47bridgeprh47bridge Posts: 396
    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    "I was tear gased by disgraceful French riot police"

    The Sunday Telegraph Chief Football Correspondent

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/05/28/pepper-sprayed-disgraceful-french-riot-police-champions-league/

    "It was outside Gate Y that I was caught in the pepper spray used indiscriminately by French riot police inside the Stade de France. I was talking to Liverpool fans who were waiting patiently, some for up to three hours, to try and get inside the stadium when it wafted into my face, stinging my eyes, lips and tongue. I saw it being sprayed. I could not quite believe it. One fan closer to the spray than me was bent double, retching, as he struggled to cope.

    It was a shock, a complete shock – had what had happened just happened? - and it was utterly disgraceful. This is Uefa’s showpiece event, the biggest and most prestigious match of the season at one of the largest stadiums in Europe which is used to hosting such big matches. And yet the police were, it appeared to me, using pepper spray in the direction of fans who were simply standing patiently holding their tickets and pleading to be allowed in.

    And, by the way, there was not a Uefa official to be seen. I did not see anyone in the hour I was outside the stadium trying to find out what was going on. No-one tried to offer any explanation or help the fans. And I only spoke to fans who had tickets. I made sure of that."

    Next time, @tlg86, @Leon et. al. CHECK YOUR BLOODY FACTS before dredging up your hate-filled preconceived bile. Grrrrrr.

    Hoity toity. Can't stand the heat, don't be the heat correspondent of a national newspaper. A cocaine fueled pig is a cocaine fueled pig however you slice it, and I for one applaud the just and proportionate measures adopted by les garçons en bleu

    And who the fuck takes *children* to these ghastly occasions?
    So you applaud this as "just and proportionate"?

    https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/01fe5e9a37c8283bd0c3135eb2393bb3c329d884/0_282_4225_2535/master/4225.jpg?width=445&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=23618d133df86a836d9cc009d782c15a

    There is a lot of victim blaming from some posters this morning.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,018
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Isn’t @ydoethur considering the possibility of a career change ?

    Lubov Plaksuk, a former history teacher who has been serving in the Ukrainian army since 2016, has become the commander of the Armed Forces’ artillery subdivision.

    She managed to tame the 2S5 Giatsint-S 152 mm self-propelled gun in Cookie said:

    CD13 said:

    I watched the La Rochelle vs Leinster game on telly in the final of the Heineken Cup yesterday. An all action game from Marseille decided in the final minute. Probably the equivalent of the European Champions Cup in football.

    As usual, the French and Irish flags happily intermingled. I remember taking a few football fans to Sale to see them play Wasps some years ago. They were very surprised to see fans mingling and drinking together at the ground.

    As regards the football, I have a Liverpool post code, but Liverpool have gone off the boil in the last three weeks. It could be a busy season telling on them. I admit to turning it off at half-time. Sorry, Mr Eagles, but they need a summer break. I feel some sympathy for the fans but the Leinster fans will be just as disappointed.

    Similar mixing in Rugby League. Usually, anyway.
    Yes, football is very much the exception in almost all respects. But for many football is almost all they know of sport and they therefore assume it is typical.
    When I described by experience at a Harlequins/Saracen’s game - after the match, the whole Saracens team visited a bar full of Harlequins supporters to sign kit - to some football supporters, the responses were interesting.

    The most interesting was the chap who thought that proved that Rugby fans aren’t proper fans.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,485
    edited May 29
    Off today's topics, but I was pondering the stuff about imperial measurements discussed yesterday. I do hope the Tories go ahead with it, as it's a core vote strategy with little wider appeal beyond the rose-tinted nostalgia 'weren't the fifties great' brigade who are already Tory voters.

    If Labour were canny (yes, I know) they could exploit it. "The Tories - looking backwards nor forwards." "The past with the Tories - the future with Labour". That sort of thing. Rather like Wilson's "white heat of technology" stuff in 1964, where Douglas-Home represented a nostalgic, and largely mythical, past, and Wilson the bold future.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 17,286

    Nice summary of Scholz:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61604329

    Line from the article:
    "The SPD traditionally believes peace in Europe can only be achieved by working with, not against Moscow. "

    Sure. If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you.

    That is close to President Trump's view. Bear that in mind if he is re-elected two years from now.
    I don’t think Trump was “pro-Russia”. I think he was pro associating himself with someone who he saw as a successful “capo de capo”. He may have a different view in 2024 if (and I hope he doesn’t) he wins again
    Trump has long advocated cooperation with Russia. Trump sees China as the main threat to American hegemony, and has done for decades.
    I agree with the second part, although think you are doing him too much credit to suggest that explains the first! I think he’s just a venal little man who thought he saw an edge and was willing to make the necessary compromises
    There have been allegations that Trump's relationship with Russia might be corrupt or worse, of course.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347
    A great quote I have just come across from Edmund Dudley (Henry VII’s money man/enforcer):

    “War is a great consumer of treasure and riches, therefore let every man beware what counsel he giveth his sovereign to enter or to begin war. There are many ways to enter into it, and the beginning seemeth a great pleasure, but the way is very narrow to come honourably out thereof, and then oftentimes full painful”

    As true today as it was then!
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,640

    A great quote I have just come across from Edmund Dudley (Henry VII’s money man/enforcer):

    “War is a great consumer of treasure and riches, therefore let every man beware what counsel he giveth his sovereign to enter or to begin war. There are many ways to enter into it, and the beginning seemeth a great pleasure, but the way is very narrow to come honourably out thereof, and then oftentimes full painful”

    As true today as it was then!

    That couldst hath been written by a 12 year old
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 3,347

    Nice summary of Scholz:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61604329

    Line from the article:
    "The SPD traditionally believes peace in Europe can only be achieved by working with, not against Moscow. "

    Sure. If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you.

    That is close to President Trump's view. Bear that in mind if he is re-elected two years from now.
    I don’t think Trump was “pro-Russia”. I think he was pro associating himself with someone who he saw as a successful “capo de capo”. He may have a different view in 2024 if (and I hope he doesn’t) he wins again
    Trump has long advocated cooperation with Russia. Trump sees China as the main threat to American hegemony, and has done for decades.
    I agree with the second part, although think you are doing him too much credit to suggest that explains the first! I think he’s just a venal little man who thought he saw an edge and was willing to make the necessary compromises
    There have been allegations that Trump's relationship with Russia might be corrupt or worse, of course.
    Try asking @Cyclefree about DB. I’m not in a position to comment.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Heathener said:

    "I was tear gased by disgraceful French riot police"

    The Sunday Telegraph Chief Football Correspondent

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/05/28/pepper-sprayed-disgraceful-french-riot-police-champions-league/

    "It was outside Gate Y that I was caught in the pepper spray used indiscriminately by French riot police inside the Stade de France. I was talking to Liverpool fans who were waiting patiently, some for up to three hours, to try and get inside the stadium when it wafted into my face, stinging my eyes, lips and tongue. I saw it being sprayed. I could not quite believe it. One fan closer to the spray than me was bent double, retching, as he struggled to cope.

    It was a shock, a complete shock – had what had happened just happened? - and it was utterly disgraceful. This is Uefa’s showpiece event, the biggest and most prestigious match of the season at one of the largest stadiums in Europe which is used to hosting such big matches. And yet the police were, it appeared to me, using pepper spray in the direction of fans who were simply standing patiently holding their tickets and pleading to be allowed in.

    And, by the way, there was not a Uefa official to be seen. I did not see anyone in the hour I was outside the stadium trying to find out what was going on. No-one tried to offer any explanation or help the fans. And I only spoke to fans who had tickets. I made sure of that."

    Next time, @tlg86, @Leon et. al. CHECK YOUR BLOODY FACTS before dredging up your hate-filled preconceived bile. Grrrrrr.

    Hoity toity. Can't stand the heat, don't be the heat correspondent of a national newspaper. A cocaine fueled pig is a cocaine fueled pig however you slice it, and I for one applaud the just and proportionate measures adopted by les garçons en bleu

    And who the fuck takes *children* to these ghastly occasions?
    So you applaud this as "just and proportionate"?

    https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/01fe5e9a37c8283bd0c3135eb2393bb3c329d884/0_282_4225_2535/master/4225.jpg?width=445&quality=45&auto=format&fit=max&dpr=2&s=23618d133df86a836d9cc009d782c15a

    There is a lot of victim blaming from some posters this morning.
    Can't see what is happening there
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,018
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    CD13 said:

    I watched the La Rochelle vs Leinster game on telly in the final of the Heineken Cup yesterday. An all action game from Marseille decided in the final minute. Probably the equivalent of the European Champions Cup in football.

    As usual, the French and Irish flags happily intermingled. I remember taking a few football fans to Sale to see them play Wasps some years ago. They were very surprised to see fans mingling and drinking together at the ground.

    As regards the football, I have a Liverpool post code, but Liverpool have gone off the boil in the last three weeks. It could be a busy season telling on them. I admit to turning it off at half-time. Sorry, Mr Eagles, but they need a summer break. I feel some sympathy for the fans but the Leinster fans will be just as disappointed.

    Similar mixing in Rugby League. Usually, anyway.
    Football is pretty much the only sport where fans are still routinely segregated.
    It isn't just the tribalism of clubs rooted in a locality with its cultures and traditions, it is the working class grass roots support.

    No genteel "well played, sir!" when the opponent scores. Quite right too, I find rugby and cricket crowds rather boring in their support.
    Absolutely - nothing shows your love of a sport like pissing in someone’s front garden or punching someone for supporting the other team.
This discussion has been closed.