Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

If the polls are right Macron is heading for victory – politicalbetting.com

1235»

Comments

  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    NEW: In the week the health secretary said there was a "moral" duty to raise tax to pay for the NHS, he reveals he was a non dom and had an overseas trust in the early 2000s https://t.co/nJDJax6OhY

    These crooks keep it legal for just this reason. Taxes are for the plebs, not the Masters of the Universe".

    I've never really been clear what benefit, to the country that is, exists for all the myriad legal means of avoiding tax. That is, what is the official reason for their existence, rather than the obvious reason of providing means for wealthy people to pay less. Genuinely, what harm would follow for the country from having fewer means for wealthy people to pay less tax?

    Yes, I don't disagree you cannot simply raise it higher and higher and have it be effective, but this isn't about general rates, it is about all the clever little mechanisms to avoid.
    Isn't the standard reason all about encouraging talented people and investment from abroad or encouraging foreign oligarchs to spend their money in London ?
    Whats the point in encouraging the bastards to live here if they don't pay their share?
    “Their share”.

    Trying to work out what their share is is pretty difficult. Most people seem to think that anyone richer than they expect to be at some point in their lives should be paying much more, but organising a tax base so it is all payed by someone else is not really possible (unless you have vast amounts of something that lots of foreigners want).
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,030
    edited April 2022
    kle4 said:

    Is Silvio Berlusconi still significant in Italian politics? He's an MEP and his party is still pretty major.

    BREAKING. Silvio Berlusconi breaks his silence on his friend Vladimir Putin and #Ukraine: “I’m distressed and disappointed by Putin. War crimes happened in Bucha. Russia shouldn’t deny its responsibilities”.

    I see from his wikipedia page he has a current partner who is 54 years younger than him. Great to see love crossing generational boundaries. (I jest, but such things are not impossible. Nevertheless...)

    His Forza Italia party is in a coalition with Salvinia's Lega Nord and Brothers of Italy ahead of the next Italian election, albeit far smaller than it was in its heyday under Berlusconi
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,345

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    If Trump gets a 2nd term, NATO is over.




    Matthew Yglesias
    @mattyglesias
    It’s totally possible that tons of senior Republican Party national security officials are all lying about this, but the reason many people think Trump was trying to destroy NATO is all these people who served in his administration say that’s what he was trying to do.

    https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1512796197702049793

    From a pragmatic US perspective it does make a great deal of sense. NATO is an anti-Russian construct and Russia is no threat to the US. China is a growing threat and countering China would be easier without NATO commitments.
    You think Putin hasn't got designs on Alaska?
    No, I don't. And the ability of the US to defend Alaska, if that ludicrous proposition were to eventuate, is not enhanced by NATO membership.
    Sarah Palin would see them coming anyway.
    And set the soccer moms onto them.
    Hockey moms!
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,311
    kle4 said:

    Visegrád 24
    @visegrad24
    ·
    25m
    Johnson: “How are you?”

    Zelensky: “You know how I am”.

    The legendary Eastern European bluntness.

    Quite right. Not really the environment or time for small talk...
    That seems like a bit of an overreading of the literal text, particularly given one is not speaking his native language. There seemed nothing blunt about it in the video. And given it was a for media greeting in front of the camera the idea it was some commentary about not being the time for small talk doesn't stack up, the whole thing was a stage managed piece of political small talk, part of the expected press clippings for such events.
    It's a great answer, because we do know how he is, and also we can project all our own feelings about the war onto him.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,345
    Cyclefree said:

    How could Sajid Javid be a non-dom when he was born here?

    Yes - he worked abroad for a while. So what? He'd be paying tax in the country where he worked like any expat.

    Is that really all it takes for a British born citizen to change their tax domicile?

    Apparently because his dad is Pakistani.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited April 2022
    Javid "I was a Non Dom but now I pay my full share"

    Because his FATHER was born in Pakistan!

    If there are any honest Tories in johnson's cabinet please could they introduce themselves

    I can't believe that article posted by Foxy. There's more reason for him to go than Sunak
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,820

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Farooq said:

    Applicant said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I had a nicely lucrative afternoon watching the racing.

    On Hillsborough, some of the comments on the previous thread show a distinct lack of empathy during humanity. The only reason the Hillsborough families eventually got some sort of justice - like others (Aberfan, for instance) is because they were "going on and on about it".

    The need for justice is very strong. I think it is in some ways hard-wired in us. And when others dismiss it it comes across as cruel indifference.

    To quote the counsel for the families at Aberfan: "The worst sin towards our fellows is not to hate them. It is to be indifferent to them. For that is the essence of inhumanity.”

    I wrote a longer article about Aberfan, Hillsborough and other disasters here - https://medium.com/@cyclefree2/the-price-of-indifference-c25d96c64e0b - if anyone is interested.

    For the TL/DR brigade, I do not share the "narcissistic Liverpudlians" view. Anymore than the parents of thalidomide babies were narcissistic in campaigning for their children. A tragedy is quite bad enough - but to compound it with injustice upon injustice - is something else, very much worse.

    If such a tragedy befell me I would hope that my family would fight for the truth and justice.

    It is the same impulse which I hope will lead to Russian soldiers and leaders being brought to justice for their crimes in Ukraine, no matter how long it takes.

    On hillsborough the point is not parents, children, brothers of those who lost their lives, it’s the city. And the issue is that the target for the ire has been almost totally the police, and not say the FA or Sheffield council who should have insisted on safety compliance, and ultimately the violence of football fans who led to fences and thus to 97 people being crushed to death.
    To be fair, a large share of the blame has been cast at a newspaper for faithfully reporting what the police told them.
    Yes, and any newspaper that acts as an unquestioning mouthpiece for the dismal lies of the authorities deserves all the contempt it gets.
    Contempt for its reporting at the time, sure, but perpetuating decades long local grudges about it? Come off it. There'll barely be anyone left at the paper who is still there.
    Respect is easily lost, but hard to win back.

    The Sun was an awful hate-filled rag that day. In the decades that have passed, has anything happened to show that The Sun is anything other than an awful hate-filled rag still?

    People who have not been on the receiving end of it may be amused by them, and view it as nothing but tittle-tattle as the hate of the week moves on to somebody else. But for those who've seen it and come to that impression, what has The Sun ever done to redeem itself?
    How will they know if they won't look at it? It comes across to me as something that distracts from the focus on the actual tragedy.

    I'm a Liverpool fan and not a Sun reader, but that aspect just seems pointless at this point.
    Just saw this edit so wanted to add ... I'm from Merseyside originally and lived there at the time this happened, I was in primary school and my teacher lost a relative that day. I think everyone of an old enough age from the area knows someone who was affected by it.

    So with respect, although I haven't lived there since I was a child, no I don't think we've held onto it too long or are wrong to have views that were formed then, that nothing has changed to reshape those views.

    What happened that day was atrocious. Certain institutions have continued to be atrocious in the decades since and so they aren't winning respect back any time soon.
    I don't think they need to have won back respect. It doesn't matter if no one ever respects them. I just don't see the point in acting like a newspaper is the same as existed then in emotional terms - for all the other institutions something is wanted out of it, something learned, something changed, to correct the many bad things and decisions that happened. Visceral emotion about the newspaper, what change is being sought, what correction is needed? If the paper still needs to do things, what are those things, since if it is the one institution left out of all the heartaching soul searching that, one hopes, will lead to truth and change in others, what is it?
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,966
    Cyclefree said:

    How could Sajid Javid be a non-dom when he was born here?

    Yes - he worked abroad for a while. So what? He'd be paying tax in the country where he worked like any expat.

    Is that really all it takes for a British born citizen to change their tax domicile?

    I would ask how anyone can be a non-dom when they are actually domiciled here - as I believe Mrs Sunak has been for the last 9 years?

    I spent 15 years working exclusively in Norway although for most of that I lived in the UK. I would never have considered claiming I was non-domiciled.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,216
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Is Silvio Berlusconi still significant in Italian politics? He's an MEP and his party is still pretty major.

    BREAKING. Silvio Berlusconi breaks his silence on his friend Vladimir Putin and #Ukraine: “I’m distressed and disappointed by Putin. War crimes happened in Bucha. Russia shouldn’t deny its responsibilities”.

    I see from his wikipedia page he has a current partner who is 54 years younger than him. Great to see love crossing generational boundaries. (I jest, but such things are not impossible. Nevertheless...)

    His Forza Italia party is in a coalition with Salvinia's Lega Nord and Brothers of Italy ahead of the next Italian election, albeit far smaller than it was in its heyday under Berlusconi
    Salvini has been licking Putin's arse since forever, much like Marine. This has not gone down well in Ukraine.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,858
    edited April 2022
    I don’t think Javid having been a non-dom is much of a story. He spent much of his banking career outside the UK, I think, and probably built up considerable assets overseas.

    It’s a bit weird that he managed to get it despite being born in the UK - I’d like to understand more on that - but it all happened before he decided to enter politics.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,216
    Roger said:

    Javid "I was a Non Dom but now I pay my full share"

    Because his FATHER was born in Pakistan!

    If there are any honest Tories in johnson's cabinet please could they introduce themselves

    I can't believe that article posted by Foxy. There's more reason for him to go than Sunak

    Honest Tories in the Cabinet are about as rare as competent senior officers in the Met police.

  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    NEW: In the week the health secretary said there was a "moral" duty to raise tax to pay for the NHS, he reveals he was a non dom and had an overseas trust in the early 2000s https://t.co/nJDJax6OhY

    These crooks keep it legal for just this reason. Taxes are for the plebs, not the Masters of the Universe".

    I've never really been clear what benefit, to the country that is, exists for all the myriad legal means of avoiding tax. That is, what is the official reason for their existence, rather than the obvious reason of providing means for wealthy people to pay less. Genuinely, what harm would follow for the country from having fewer means for wealthy people to pay less tax?

    Yes, I don't disagree you cannot simply raise it higher and higher and have it be effective, but this isn't about general rates, it is about all the clever little mechanisms to avoid.
    Isn't the standard reason all about encouraging talented people and investment from abroad or encouraging foreign oligarchs to spend their money in London ?
    Whats the point in encouraging the bastards to live here if they don't pay their share?
    It's worse than that. The article you linked to shows that he had no reason at all to be a Non Dom other than to avoid tax. He was born schooled and lived in the UK but because his father was born in Pakistan he thought he could avoid tax. Is that even legal?

    What a bunch of spivs.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,216

    I don’t think Javid having been a non-dom is much of a story. He spent much of his banking career outside the UK, I think, and probably built up considerable assets overseas.

    It’s a bit weird that he managed to get it despite being born in the UK - I’d like to understand more on that - but it all happened before he decided to enter politics.

    So what. Lots of people born and educated here work abroad. Is that how low the bar is?
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,858
    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Is Silvio Berlusconi still significant in Italian politics? He's an MEP and his party is still pretty major.

    BREAKING. Silvio Berlusconi breaks his silence on his friend Vladimir Putin and #Ukraine: “I’m distressed and disappointed by Putin. War crimes happened in Bucha. Russia shouldn’t deny its responsibilities”.

    I see from his wikipedia page he has a current partner who is 54 years younger than him. Great to see love crossing generational boundaries. (I jest, but such things are not impossible. Nevertheless...)

    His Forza Italia party is in a coalition with Salvinia's Lega Nord and Brothers of Italy ahead of the next Italian election, albeit far smaller than it was in its heyday under Berlusconi
    Salvini has been licking Putin's arse since forever, much like Marine. This has not gone down well in Ukraine.
    Italy has corrupted itself into insignificance, and so nobody really cares what Italian politicians think.

    A Le Pen win in France would really threaten the pro-Ukrainian alliance.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,858
    Cyclefree said:

    I don’t think Javid having been a non-dom is much of a story. He spent much of his banking career outside the UK, I think, and probably built up considerable assets overseas.

    It’s a bit weird that he managed to get it despite being born in the UK - I’d like to understand more on that - but it all happened before he decided to enter politics.

    So what. Lots of people born and educated here work abroad. Is that how low the bar is?
    I can’t remember what the old rules were.
    Like you I’m surprised he was eligible, I’d like to understand more, but I don’t automatically smell a scandal.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,820
    edited April 2022
    Yanis Varoufakis laying out his position in interview, having been (in his eyes) unfairly labelled a Putin apologising westplainer. He doesn't come across as crazy, and it is not at the Stop the War level.

    Reading it I think the key problem he has, and many have, is a focus on the most important goal being an 'immediate cessation of fire and withdrawal of Russia troops'.

    Because the former to me seems unlikely to happen with the latter. Giving Putin a win to immediately get cessation of fire would surely mean accepting him continuing to occupy areas, which means the latter goal is impossible, or at least incompatible, with the former. His suggestion about stopping NATO expansion being that victory won't work because, for one, Finland is about to join, and for two that was not the sole justification for the war.

    He at least does not oppose sending weapons to Ukraine, but he does at least flirt with the rather ludicrous position that those taking a firmer line are 'warmongering'. He also talks correctly about the horrible situation that a stalemate would be, but given he thinks Ukraine cannot win (many might agree) and is opposed to stalemate, I'm not sure what he thinks should happen if the ceasefire approach doesn't work.

    https://unherd.com/2022/04/ukraine-cannot-win-this-war/
  • Options
    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,014

    I don’t think Javid having been a non-dom is much of a story. He spent much of his banking career outside the UK, I think, and probably built up considerable assets overseas.

    It’s a bit weird that he managed to get it despite being born in the UK - I’d like to understand more on that - but it all happened before he decided to enter politics.

    EU law? You can't treat an EU citizen less favourably than a non-EU citizen.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,820
    edited April 2022

    Cyclefree said:

    I don’t think Javid having been a non-dom is much of a story. He spent much of his banking career outside the UK, I think, and probably built up considerable assets overseas.

    It’s a bit weird that he managed to get it despite being born in the UK - I’d like to understand more on that - but it all happened before he decided to enter politics.

    So what. Lots of people born and educated here work abroad. Is that how low the bar is?
    I can’t remember what the old rules were.
    Like you I’m surprised he was eligible, I’d like to understand more, but I don’t automatically smell a scandal.
    I assume this is what the mid 90s were like, in that even potential non scandals hurt the government because the miasma of other stories poisoned the atmosphere in which the stories are received.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,216

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Is Silvio Berlusconi still significant in Italian politics? He's an MEP and his party is still pretty major.

    BREAKING. Silvio Berlusconi breaks his silence on his friend Vladimir Putin and #Ukraine: “I’m distressed and disappointed by Putin. War crimes happened in Bucha. Russia shouldn’t deny its responsibilities”.

    I see from his wikipedia page he has a current partner who is 54 years younger than him. Great to see love crossing generational boundaries. (I jest, but such things are not impossible. Nevertheless...)

    His Forza Italia party is in a coalition with Salvinia's Lega Nord and Brothers of Italy ahead of the next Italian election, albeit far smaller than it was in its heyday under Berlusconi
    Salvini has been licking Putin's arse since forever, much like Marine. This has not gone down well in Ukraine.
    Italy has corrupted itself into insignificance, and so nobody really cares what Italian politicians think.

    A Le Pen win in France would really threaten the pro-Ukrainian alliance.
    God, yes. I really hope she does not win. You are right about Italy. On her own she does not matter. But if another EU state starts to falter then Italy will feel emboldened to be more pro-Putin then another etc ...
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,858
    edited April 2022
    kle4 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I don’t think Javid having been a non-dom is much of a story. He spent much of his banking career outside the UK, I think, and probably built up considerable assets overseas.

    It’s a bit weird that he managed to get it despite being born in the UK - I’d like to understand more on that - but it all happened before he decided to enter politics.

    So what. Lots of people born and educated here work abroad. Is that how low the bar is?
    I can’t remember what the old rules were.
    Like you I’m surprised he was eligible, I’d like to understand more, but I don’t automatically smell a scandal.
    I assume this is what the mid 90s were like, in that even potential non scandals hurt the government because the miasma of other stories poisoned the atmosphere in which the stories are received.
    I dimly remember the mid 90s.

    It’s far worse now, stuff like today’s David Warburton lobbying story come thick and fast now and hardly raise an eyebrow.

    If it were the mid 90s, neither Boris nor Rishi, nor perhaps several others, would still be in their jobs.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,858
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Is Silvio Berlusconi still significant in Italian politics? He's an MEP and his party is still pretty major.

    BREAKING. Silvio Berlusconi breaks his silence on his friend Vladimir Putin and #Ukraine: “I’m distressed and disappointed by Putin. War crimes happened in Bucha. Russia shouldn’t deny its responsibilities”.

    I see from his wikipedia page he has a current partner who is 54 years younger than him. Great to see love crossing generational boundaries. (I jest, but such things are not impossible. Nevertheless...)

    His Forza Italia party is in a coalition with Salvinia's Lega Nord and Brothers of Italy ahead of the next Italian election, albeit far smaller than it was in its heyday under Berlusconi
    Salvini has been licking Putin's arse since forever, much like Marine. This has not gone down well in Ukraine.
    Italy has corrupted itself into insignificance, and so nobody really cares what Italian politicians think.

    A Le Pen win in France would really threaten the pro-Ukrainian alliance.
    God, yes. I really hope she does not win. You are right about Italy. On her own she does not matter. But if another EU state starts to falter then Italy will feel emboldened to be more pro-Putin then another etc ...
    I just wanted to add that I’ve no ill will against Italy. The Leopard is my favourite film. Just that the politics are…screwed.
  • Options
    VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,435

    A brief summary of domicile rules (based on historical case law)

    When you are born your domicile of origin is your father's exisiting domicile if born in wedlock otherwise you acquire your mother's.

    If before you are 16 your father (mother) changes their domicile you change your domicile as a domicile of dependancy. Wives used to acquire their husbands domicile as a domicile of dependancy on marriage, but that changed in the 70s.

    Once you are 16 you can make a positive choice to adopt a domicile of choice. This requires you to make your permanent home in the new jurisdiction. (Techincally you are domiciled in a legal jurisdiction, eg Scotland. Florida, etc). If you cease to live in your new domicile of choice you loose it and your domicile of origin reverts.

    A domcile of origin is sticky. There needs to be position action and intent to make a domicile of choice.

    Domicile is a matter of general law, the tax legislation just adopts the concept and adapts it to make certain individuals deemed domiciled within the UK for particular tax purposes.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,311
    edited April 2022
    kle4 said:

    Yanis Varoufakis laying out his position in interview, having been (in his eyes) unfairly labelled a Putin apologising westplainer. He doesn't come across as crazy, and it is not at the Stop the War level.

    Reading it I think the key problem he has, and many have, is a focus on the most important goal being an 'immediate cessation of fire and withdrawal of Russia troops'.

    Because the former to me seems unlikely to happen with the latter. Giving Putin a win to immediately get cessation of fire would surely mean accepting him continuing to occupy areas, which means the latter goal is impossible, or at least incompatible, with the former. His suggestion about stopping NATO expansion being that victory won't work because, for one, Finland is about to join, and for two that was not the sole justification for the war.

    He at least does not oppose sending weapons to Ukraine, but he does at least flirt with the rather ludicrous position that those taking a firmer line are 'warmongering'. He also talks correctly about the horrible situation that a stalemate would be, but given he thinks Ukraine cannot win (many might agree) and is opposed to stalemate, I'm not sure what he thinks should happen if the ceasefire approach doesn't work.

    https://unherd.com/2022/04/ukraine-cannot-win-this-war/

    I just don't understand this position. The very fact of the invasion demonstrates that Putin is not interested in diplomacy. There were ample opportunities for negotiation prior to the invasion.

    Negotiation with Putin is only possible when he demonstrates he is interested in it. At a minimum this would require a withdrawal to the 23rd February territorial lines. There's nothing the West can do to make that more likely - except to make victory for Putin as remote a possibility as possible.

    I don't see any good way out of this that doesn't involve Russian defeat - but that comes with a nuclear risk if Russia refuses to accept a conventional defeat. So I wonder whether the nuclear risk might be lower if at least one nuclear power joins the war on Ukraine's side to provide a nuclear deterrence.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,216

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Is Silvio Berlusconi still significant in Italian politics? He's an MEP and his party is still pretty major.

    BREAKING. Silvio Berlusconi breaks his silence on his friend Vladimir Putin and #Ukraine: “I’m distressed and disappointed by Putin. War crimes happened in Bucha. Russia shouldn’t deny its responsibilities”.

    I see from his wikipedia page he has a current partner who is 54 years younger than him. Great to see love crossing generational boundaries. (I jest, but such things are not impossible. Nevertheless...)

    His Forza Italia party is in a coalition with Salvinia's Lega Nord and Brothers of Italy ahead of the next Italian election, albeit far smaller than it was in its heyday under Berlusconi
    Salvini has been licking Putin's arse since forever, much like Marine. This has not gone down well in Ukraine.
    Italy has corrupted itself into insignificance, and so nobody really cares what Italian politicians think.

    A Le Pen win in France would really threaten the pro-Ukrainian alliance.
    God, yes. I really hope she does not win. You are right about Italy. On her own she does not matter. But if another EU state starts to falter then Italy will feel emboldened to be more pro-Putin then another etc ...
    I just wanted to add that I’ve no ill will against Italy. The Leopard is my favourite film. Just that the politics are…screwed.
    You don't need to defend Italian politicians or public life to me, you know!

    Italy has always punched well below her weight in international affairs.

    Italian films on the other hand....

    Try also L'Innocente by Visconti. His last film I think. Superb.
  • Options
    MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 12,441
    Opinium call LD as no change, yet their bar chart has them bigger this poll than last. Is this trolling?

    Last poll nine, this one ten, +1 increase not no change.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,345

    Opinium call LD as no change, yet their bar chart has them bigger this poll than last. Is this trolling?

    Last poll nine, this one ten, +1 increase not no change.

    Hmmm. 9.6% this month, 8.6% last month.
  • Options
    FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,891
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Farooq said:

    Applicant said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I had a nicely lucrative afternoon watching the racing.

    On Hillsborough, some of the comments on the previous thread show a distinct lack of empathy during humanity. The only reason the Hillsborough families eventually got some sort of justice - like others (Aberfan, for instance) is because they were "going on and on about it".

    The need for justice is very strong. I think it is in some ways hard-wired in us. And when others dismiss it it comes across as cruel indifference.

    To quote the counsel for the families at Aberfan: "The worst sin towards our fellows is not to hate them. It is to be indifferent to them. For that is the essence of inhumanity.”

    I wrote a longer article about Aberfan, Hillsborough and other disasters here - https://medium.com/@cyclefree2/the-price-of-indifference-c25d96c64e0b - if anyone is interested.

    For the TL/DR brigade, I do not share the "narcissistic Liverpudlians" view. Anymore than the parents of thalidomide babies were narcissistic in campaigning for their children. A tragedy is quite bad enough - but to compound it with injustice upon injustice - is something else, very much worse.

    If such a tragedy befell me I would hope that my family would fight for the truth and justice.

    It is the same impulse which I hope will lead to Russian soldiers and leaders being brought to justice for their crimes in Ukraine, no matter how long it takes.

    On hillsborough the point is not parents, children, brothers of those who lost their lives, it’s the city. And the issue is that the target for the ire has been almost totally the police, and not say the FA or Sheffield council who should have insisted on safety compliance, and ultimately the violence of football fans who led to fences and thus to 97 people being crushed to death.
    To be fair, a large share of the blame has been cast at a newspaper for faithfully reporting what the police told them.
    Yes, and any newspaper that acts as an unquestioning mouthpiece for the dismal lies of the authorities deserves all the contempt it gets.
    Contempt for its reporting at the time, sure, but perpetuating decades long local grudges about it? Come off it. There'll barely be anyone left at the paper who is still there.
    Respect is easily lost, but hard to win back.

    The Sun was an awful hate-filled rag that day. In the decades that have passed, has anything happened to show that The Sun is anything other than an awful hate-filled rag still?

    People who have not been on the receiving end of it may be amused by them, and view it as nothing but tittle-tattle as the hate of the week moves on to somebody else. But for those who've seen it and come to that impression, what has The Sun ever done to redeem itself?
    How will they know if they won't look at it? It comes across to me as something that distracts from the focus on the actual tragedy.

    I'm a Liverpool fan and not a Sun reader, but that aspect just seems pointless at this point.
    Just saw this edit so wanted to add ... I'm from Merseyside originally and lived there at the time this happened, I was in primary school and my teacher lost a relative that day. I think everyone of an old enough age from the area knows someone who was affected by it.

    So with respect, although I haven't lived there since I was a child, no I don't think we've held onto it too long or are wrong to have views that were formed then, that nothing has changed to reshape those views.

    What happened that day was atrocious. Certain institutions have continued to be atrocious in the decades since and so they aren't winning respect back any time soon.
    I don't think they need to have won back respect. It doesn't matter if no one ever respects them. I just don't see the point in acting like a newspaper is the same as existed then in emotional terms - for all the other institutions something is wanted out of it, something learned, something changed, to correct the many bad things and decisions that happened. Visceral emotion about the newspaper, what change is being sought, what correction is needed? If the paper still needs to do things, what are those things, since if it is the one institution left out of all the heartaching soul searching that, one hopes, will lead to truth and change in others, what is it?
    I doubt there were many in Liverpool that were fans of the Sun prior to Hillsborough so it was more a reinforcement of a pre-existing enmity.

    The newspaper was stupid and no doubt heard what it wanted to hear, but it didn't kill anyone. The initial anger at it was justified but the majority of that anger would have been better focused elsewhere.

    It was mainly just another incident in a long line of police failure. I expect that there would be a lot more scepticism today - even in the Sun - about anything that was leaked to them in the way it was. Whether that is due to a real deterioration in standards, or just less naivety about the police, I'm not sure.


    To add: someone at my school was one of the 97.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,013

    If Boris was as popular in UK as he is in Ukraine, he'd walk the next election.

    Zelinskyy's Head of Office tweets:

    https://twitter.com/AndriyYermak/status/1512816224668901382

    "Leadership is the burden you take up voluntarily when the rest are dodging. True leaders are never many. And it's great Ukraine has true friends among them. Like @BorisJohnson who's been to Kyiv today..."

    It's nice to know Ukraine has a high regard for our government even if its one I didn't vote for myself.

    However it makes me uneasy. What does it say about our allies?

    Medvedev's comments if true are simply appalling. However I'm worried that we've become so used to such outrageous remarks being made that we are de-sensitised to it. We shouldn't be. It also calls into question the integrity of the United Nations. How can you have a situation where a permanent member of the security council denies the right of another UN member to exist? It's undermining the very foundational principles of the UN itself. We should insist that the Russian government disowns the remarks or try to pass a motion suspending Russia from the UN Security Council. It may be futile but we would at least see who's prepared to put their heads above the parapet.

    Why is Medvedev saying such things? Perhaps it is designed to make us think that Russia may be prepared to use nuclear weapons. Is that because they are seriously considering it or is it just sabre rattling? And how will we be able to tell?
    We're rapidly reaching the point where we have to step in.

    And yes, that does mean that the risk of nuclear war is there. But Putin's Russia has now (a) invaded a neighbouring sovereign state; (b) perpetrated numerous war crimes; and (c) declared that said country has no right to exist, because Russia gets to choose which countries exist, and which do not.

    Until now, I had very much shared the @HYUFD view: Ukraine was not a member of NATO, and therefore while we had a duty to support a democracy who had been attacked, that there was a very clear demarcation between those countries where we had a mutual defence treaty, and those where we did not.

    But Russia's latest statements are such that one comes to the conclusion that they are seeking to recreate the old Russian empire, and to exterminate the right to self determination of tens - or hundreds - of millions.

    I do know that stepping in carries risks, in particular the risk that Russia will decide to use nuclear weapons. But I also know that every time you defer to a bully, you encourage them.

    Not intervening now is not 'choosing peace'. It is merely choosing to allow the time for war to be on the bully's terms.

    Our government must recognise this. So must those of Germany and France. So must Japan. Those politicians who lorded Putin - whether Trump or Le Pen or Farage - must reverse their stance or be pilloried for it.

    It's time for the democracies to stand up. It's time to say 'no'. And it's time to back fine words with hard actions.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,013
    Dura_Ace said:

    If Trump gets a 2nd term, NATO is over.




    Matthew Yglesias
    @mattyglesias
    It’s totally possible that tons of senior Republican Party national security officials are all lying about this, but the reason many people think Trump was trying to destroy NATO is all these people who served in his administration say that’s what he was trying to do.

    https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1512796197702049793

    From a pragmatic US perspective it does make a great deal of sense. NATO is an anti-Russian construct and Russia is no threat to the US. China is a growing threat and countering China would be easier without NATO commitments.
    Countering China would be a hell of a lot easier if Russia wasn't going around invading other countries, no?

    Defeat Russia, and the West can - collectively - look East.
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151
    rcs1000 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    If Trump gets a 2nd term, NATO is over.




    Matthew Yglesias
    @mattyglesias
    It’s totally possible that tons of senior Republican Party national security officials are all lying about this, but the reason many people think Trump was trying to destroy NATO is all these people who served in his administration say that’s what he was trying to do.

    https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1512796197702049793

    From a pragmatic US perspective it does make a great deal of sense. NATO is an anti-Russian construct and Russia is no threat to the US. China is a growing threat and countering China would be easier without NATO commitments.
    Countering China would be a hell of a lot easier if Russia wasn't going around invading other countries, no?

    Defeat Russia, and the West can - collectively - look East.
    This seems like a bad situation for the world to be in since China can sustain the Russian economy indefinitely and if China keeps their economy running then Russia can rebuild its military. So if the west escalates to defeat Russia faster, doesn't China also do an equal-and-opposite escalation to prevent the west defeating Russia faster?
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,714
    Australian PM Scott Morrison has called a general election for 21st May.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-10/federal-election-live-may-21-scott-morrison/100960362
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,013
    .

    rcs1000 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    If Trump gets a 2nd term, NATO is over.




    Matthew Yglesias
    @mattyglesias
    It’s totally possible that tons of senior Republican Party national security officials are all lying about this, but the reason many people think Trump was trying to destroy NATO is all these people who served in his administration say that’s what he was trying to do.

    https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1512796197702049793

    From a pragmatic US perspective it does make a great deal of sense. NATO is an anti-Russian construct and Russia is no threat to the US. China is a growing threat and countering China would be easier without NATO commitments.
    Countering China would be a hell of a lot easier if Russia wasn't going around invading other countries, no?

    Defeat Russia, and the West can - collectively - look East.
    This seems like a bad situation for the world to be in since China can sustain the Russian economy indefinitely and if China keeps their economy running then Russia can rebuild its military. So if the west escalates to defeat Russia faster, doesn't China also do an equal-and-opposite escalation to prevent the west defeating Russia faster?
    That's an assertion without evidence.

    China provides many things.

    But so do the US, Germany, Taiwan and Japan. Good luck building anything simpler than... Well, I was going to say pocket calculator, but I suspect that's simply not true.

    The world is a complex place. And Russia will struggle if the democracies of the world are willing to endure a little pain now, to avoid the risk of a lot of pain later.
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,714
    "Rishi Sunak has shown he is unfit for office
    The Chancellor’s defence of his wife’s non-dom status proves he hasn’t got a clue what he looks like to the rest of us.
    By Philip Collins"

    https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2022/04/rishi-sunak-has-shown-he-is-unfit-for-office
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,668

    Cyclefree said:

    I don’t think Javid having been a non-dom is much of a story. He spent much of his banking career outside the UK, I think, and probably built up considerable assets overseas.

    It’s a bit weird that he managed to get it despite being born in the UK - I’d like to understand more on that - but it all happened before he decided to enter politics.

    So what. Lots of people born and educated here work abroad. Is that how low the bar is?
    I can’t remember what the old rules were.
    Like you I’m surprised he was eligible, I’d like to understand more, but I don’t automatically smell a scandal.
    Whether or not it’s a scandal, there is something rather odd about having a senior member of government who fairly recently was prepared to declare their permanent home was another country, in order to save tax.

    Perfectly legal, but it says quite a lot about their character.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,668
    rcs1000 said:

    .

    rcs1000 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    If Trump gets a 2nd term, NATO is over.

    Matthew Yglesias
    @mattyglesias
    It’s totally possible that tons of senior Republican Party national security officials are all lying about this, but the reason many people think Trump was trying to destroy NATO is all these people who served in his administration say that’s what he was trying to do.

    https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1512796197702049793

    From a pragmatic US perspective it does make a great deal of sense. NATO is an anti-Russian construct and Russia is no threat to the US. China is a growing threat and countering China would be easier without NATO commitments.
    Countering China would be a hell of a lot easier if Russia wasn't going around invading other countries, no?

    Defeat Russia, and the West can - collectively - look East.
    This seems like a bad situation for the world to be in since China can sustain the Russian economy indefinitely and if China keeps their economy running then Russia can rebuild its military. So if the west escalates to defeat Russia faster, doesn't China also do an equal-and-opposite escalation to prevent the west defeating Russia faster?
    That's an assertion without evidence.

    China provides many things.

    But so do the US, Germany, Taiwan and Japan. Good luck building anything simpler than... Well, I was going to say pocket calculator, but I suspect that's simply not true.

    The world is a complex place. And Russia will struggle if the democracies of the world are willing to endure a little pain now, to avoid the risk of a lot of pain later.
    It’s probably true that, in the long run, Russia could sustain its economy that way.
    In the short to medium term it can only be enormously disruptive to what is already a ramshackle and corrupt economy. Most of their stuff has depended on deals with the free world*, and changing that is not like flipping a switch.
    And there are sectors where China is still significantly behind the free world.

    There’s also the question of how far China wants to go in breaking ties with the free world.

    *An awkward term, but ‘the west’ is even less accurate.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,668
    https://twitter.com/zaborona_media/status/1512870736725164037
    The real cause of the death of Lithuanian director Mantas Kvedaravičius in #Mariupol has been announced. He was taken prisoner by Russians and later was shot in his head and his chest. The occupiers threw his body out into the street, 🇺🇦Ombudsman Denisova reported today.
  • Options

    NEW THREAD

  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,045

    To expand on a point I hinted at below: these AIs are sexist.

    Enter 'nurse with gun', and you get images of women (well, sort-of, given how bad the AI is - but they don't look male).

    Enter 'firefighter with child' and you get a man (although in this case, they look more like the product of a drunken Edvard Munch).

    Yet the more interesting answers are when you get a male nurse, or a female firefighter.

    There is a real issue with 'AIs' from real-world datasets stereotyping people wrongly by gender or race because of dataset bias.

    Too many AIs encode bias.

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/07/ai-machine-learning-bias-discrimination/
    https://www.ibm.com/blogs/journey-to-ai/2022/02/we-must-check-for-racial-bias-in-our-machine-learning-models/

    That makes no sense. Where's the 'dataset bias'? The dataset reflects reality. Most nurses are women. Most firefighters are men.You seem to be wanting the AI algorithm to act like a corporate PR department, choosing the pictures to fake some quotas which don't actually correspond with reality.
    Dataset bias is a well-known issue in the AI world, which has already had disturbing consequences.

    I don't want that. But let us take an example. You have an AI that scans through resumes to 'pick' the best candidates for a nursing home. The current dataset is filled with women, but there is zero reason that a man could not do the job. The AI looks at recorded job performance - or even those who have been hired before - and chooses based on characteristics that have nothing to do with the job, yet disadvantages men.

    Ditto race, age, etc. It's another variant of GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out.

    To go onto one of Leon's favourite topics: what will kill people is people having a faith in flawed AI systems because AI is 'cool'

    Here are some links:
    https://www.telusinternational.com/articles/7-types-of-data-bias-in-machine-learning
    https://news.mit.edu/2022/machine-learning-biased-data-0221
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,598
    Foxy said:

    NEW: In the week the health secretary said there was a "moral" duty to raise tax to pay for the NHS, he reveals he was a non dom and had an overseas trust in the early 2000s https://t.co/nJDJax6OhY

    These crooks keep it legal for just this reason. Taxes are for the plebs, not the Masters of the Universe".

    "Crook?" :smile:

    This one looks like an advanced breaking of the legs of anyone trying to make it a story.

    According to the piece:

    Was not a "non-dom" in his political life.
    Paid taxes abroad whilst he was working abroad for 5 years.
    Paid taxes in the UK as overseas assets / income have been repatriated.
    Closed the structure down and paid 50% tax on it all when he became a Minister.

    If this stuff keeps up someone is going to mention Chair of the Public Accounts Committee Margaret Hodge the Taxfinder General, and in the middle of her taxdodger hunting activities her £1.5m of shares repatriated under the Luxemburg Disclosure Facility from a previousty undisclosed offshore trust. Most of which had been held on her behalf in a Trust in Panama, which jurisdiction she had been having a go at the time.

    https://www.taxjournal.com/articles/press-watch-margaret-hodge-given-15m-shares-tax-haven-30042015
This discussion has been closed.