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The Ukranian Crisis – Day 5 – politicalbetting.com

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    Scott_xP said:

    Switzerland just sanctioned Russia and closed it’s airspace to Russian aircraft https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1498293462898294784/photo/1

    Closing the airspace was slightly academic as they couldn’t have got there anyway - there’s an Aeroflot 320 stuck in Geneva because of that.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,879

    MISTY said:

    dixiedean said:

    FPT. By @BartholomewRoberts

    I agree with you entirely but Russia's Useful Green Idiots have been opposing the bit in bold.

    @Richard_Tyndall is 100% right we need hydrocarbons to get us through the transition to clean energy and we should be developing our own instead of importing it from Putin and Sheiks.

    The loony elements of the Green movement oppose any and all exploration and extraction of domestic hydrocarbons. That does play into the hands of the likes of Putin who simply ignore those loons and do as they please.

    Dixiedean:

    One may say the same about those who have fought tooth and nail to prevent anything to restrict the demand side.
    We hear surprisingly little about that from the other side.
    It's going to take both to get anywhere near.

    Somebody made a good point, it isn't just green policy that's preventing fracking in the UK, its nimby-ism. Just as everybody supports other people paying higher taxes, so everybody supports cheaper gas drawn from fields near others.

    To make it work, the government needs incentives for people to agree for their areas to be fracked.
    Might see Nicola Sturgeon back-pedalling over North Sea oil and gas. Would cause ructions with the Greens, but hey, country comes first.
    Licence allocation is a UKG not devolved decision.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,498
    kinabalu said:

    Aslan said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Also:

    This should not be taken as an isolated incident. This is a clear sign that Kremlin's reputation cost is now literally 0. And this means a nuclear strike is becoming realistic.

    https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1498292779222458372

    He is right.
    That is ridiculous. Putin doesn't care about his reputation but he cares about full scale war with the West because he would lose. That is why a nuclear strike is not happening. Those pushing it are just trying to play the "don't poke the bear" card.
    Ask yourself this question, Asian.

    If Hitler had had the bomb, would he have used it to destroy the rest of the world as he faced certain defeat?

    Next question. If Hitler, why not Putin?
    Yep, any one individual can be mad and bad enough - both are required - to do that. So the question "If he is, would others stop him?" is incredibly important. Unfortunately it's also difficult to answer with any confidence. You'd have to be there - in the Kremlin - and we're not. Pity we don't have an insider. That "PJohnson" doesn't seem high enough up the food chain to me.
    It's probable that most people in high-up positions in Russia prefer a Russia in which they and their family continue to live rather than one in which they along with much of the rest of humanity are obliterated.
    I'd like to be slightly surer than 'probable' but on balance I'm still expecting to see next year.
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    ChameleonChameleon Posts: 3,886
    edited February 2022
    https://twitter.com/AceJaceu/status/1498304502704787457

    Turkish-built TB2s are putting in one hell of a shift. Very kind of the Russians to mark their vehicles up with a massive Z so that the drones know which ones to blow up.
  • Options
    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,184
    IshmaelZ said:

    DougSeal said:

    Mulling over a comment from @malcolmg on the last thread. Why does he think I’m a Tory? Is this a common misapprehension?

    Fallacy of the undistributed middle:

    I have never kissed a tory

    I have never kissed you

    Therefore you are a tory

    Unless the two of you did have a teenage snog, in which case ignore.
    It’s Malc’s deep dark secret but have fond memories of our sensitive crimes in the turnip field.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,520

    Aslan said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Also:

    This should not be taken as an isolated incident. This is a clear sign that Kremlin's reputation cost is now literally 0. And this means a nuclear strike is becoming realistic.

    https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1498292779222458372

    He is right.
    That is ridiculous. Putin doesn't care about his reputation but he cares about full scale war with the West because he would lose. That is why a nuclear strike is not happening. Those pushing it are just trying to play the "don't poke the bear" card.
    Ask yourself this question, Asian.

    If Hitler had had the bomb, would he have used it to destroy the rest of the world as he faced certain defeat?

    Next question. If Hitler, why not Putin?
    If NATO troops were outside the Kremlin, maybe.
    Otoh AH didn't unleash Tabun and other such nasties when the Soviets were at the Oder. The ways of the Lord and psychotic dictators are mysterious indeed.
    Chlorine Triflouride included...
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    Carnyx said:

    MISTY said:

    dixiedean said:

    FPT. By @BartholomewRoberts

    I agree with you entirely but Russia's Useful Green Idiots have been opposing the bit in bold.

    @Richard_Tyndall is 100% right we need hydrocarbons to get us through the transition to clean energy and we should be developing our own instead of importing it from Putin and Sheiks.

    The loony elements of the Green movement oppose any and all exploration and extraction of domestic hydrocarbons. That does play into the hands of the likes of Putin who simply ignore those loons and do as they please.

    Dixiedean:

    One may say the same about those who have fought tooth and nail to prevent anything to restrict the demand side.
    We hear surprisingly little about that from the other side.
    It's going to take both to get anywhere near.

    Somebody made a good point, it isn't just green policy that's preventing fracking in the UK, its nimby-ism. Just as everybody supports other people paying higher taxes, so everybody supports cheaper gas drawn from fields near others.

    To make it work, the government needs incentives for people to agree for their areas to be fracked.
    Might see Nicola Sturgeon back-pedalling over North Sea oil and gas. Would cause ructions with the Greens, but hey, country comes first.
    Licence allocation is a UKG not devolved decision.
    Haven't you heard, it's entirely down to the SG that Cambo has been blocked, there isn't an indyref II and Scotland isn't taking refugees of various nationalities. Shocking dereliction of duty it is.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,927

    MISTY said:

    dixiedean said:

    FPT. By @BartholomewRoberts

    I agree with you entirely but Russia's Useful Green Idiots have been opposing the bit in bold.

    @Richard_Tyndall is 100% right we need hydrocarbons to get us through the transition to clean energy and we should be developing our own instead of importing it from Putin and Sheiks.

    The loony elements of the Green movement oppose any and all exploration and extraction of domestic hydrocarbons. That does play into the hands of the likes of Putin who simply ignore those loons and do as they please.

    Dixiedean:

    One may say the same about those who have fought tooth and nail to prevent anything to restrict the demand side.
    We hear surprisingly little about that from the other side.
    It's going to take both to get anywhere near.

    Somebody made a good point, it isn't just green policy that's preventing fracking in the UK, its nimby-ism. Just as everybody supports other people paying higher taxes, so everybody supports cheaper gas drawn from fields near others.

    To make it work, the government needs incentives for people to agree for their areas to be fracked.
    In case you've missed it, my attitude to NIMBYs is long-established. I have as little respect for NIMBYs here as I do anywhere and they would if it were up to me get the exact same response as I'd give them elsewhere. Fuck NIMBYs.

    However incentivising areas that get fracked is a very good idea, and is what the Americans have done very successfully.
    That’s easy - let local authorities rather than central government levy taxes on production. If everyone in your district gets a cheque instead of a council tax bill, people might suddenly be in favour of it.
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited February 2022
    "A Ukrainian woman and her 15-year-old diabetic daughter say they are feeling increasingly distraught after escaping the conflict in Ukraine only to be blocked from a visa the UK government announced on Sunday evening for which they are eligible."

    Yakiv Voloshchuk, 60, a British citizen, rescued his wife, Oksana Voloshchuk, 41 and their daughter, Veronika Voloshchuk, from Poland on 26 February.

    He drove from his home in London to the Polish border and waited for them to get across Ukraine’s border with Poland. He then did a return 24-hour journey by road across Europe before reaching Paris on Sunday where he hoped he would get the green light from British officials to bring his wife and daughter on the last leg of the journey to the UK.

    The family hoped it would be straightforward to reach the UK, especially after the publication of new Home Office guidance giving permission for some immediate family members of British citizens to apply free of charge to join their loved ones in the UK.

    But when Oksana and Veronika tried to apply for the new visa online they were blocked from proceeding unless they paid thousands of pounds, even though the application is supposed to be free.

    “We just don’t know what to do,” Voloshchuk told the Guardian on Monday morning. “My wife’s bank account in Ukraine is frozen. We have booked into a hotel in Paris for a couple of days but I want to bring my family back to the UK to my home in London.

    “We are getting very worried about my daughter because she is type 1 diabetic and is running out of insulin. We also don’t have a lot of money for food. She needs to eat regularly.”



  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,498

    Scott_xP said:

    Switzerland just sanctioned Russia and closed it’s airspace to Russian aircraft https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1498293462898294784/photo/1

    Closing the airspace was slightly academic as they couldn’t have got there anyway - there’s an Aeroflot 320 stuck in Geneva because of that.
    There's some interesting movements on flightradar 24.
    Many/most movements stop at the eastern edge of Poland and Romania.
    There's the odd flight making its way east-west across Russia (an Air India flight between Delhi and Frankfurt) but these very much the exception.
    Flights from Moscow to Cuba via the Arctic.
    The odd flight between Russia and the west - one from Moscow to Brussels, one from St Petersburg to Istanbul.
    Everything avoiding Kaliningrad.
  • Options
    Little evidence the Russians are negotiating in good faith:

    Baffled by choice of Medinsky to head RUS delegation for peace talks. Party hack, undistinguished ex-Culture Minister, no diplomatic or military previous. Is Russia serious?

    https://twitter.com/Nigelgd1/status/1498296354719866880

    Better question: what is he doing at the negotiations? If there is an absolutely toxic, disgraced individual in Russia's foreign policy pool whose presence will likely be interpreted by Ukrainians as a deliberate insult, that's Slutsky.

    https://twitter.com/NoYardstick/status/1498306936898523143
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,095
    More @yougov polling just published today - even higher support for an even more generous policy - huge majority (77%) supporting allowing Ukrainian refugees *without visas* to come to U.K. - huge majorities across all political divides. Nearly half *strongly* support. https://twitter.com/yougov/status/1498306911074238465
  • Options
    NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,347

    @AFP
    #BREAKING US recommends Americans in Russia leave 'immediately': State Dept


    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1498303955415277582

    They said this yesterday
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,879

    Carnyx said:

    MISTY said:

    dixiedean said:

    FPT. By @BartholomewRoberts

    I agree with you entirely but Russia's Useful Green Idiots have been opposing the bit in bold.

    @Richard_Tyndall is 100% right we need hydrocarbons to get us through the transition to clean energy and we should be developing our own instead of importing it from Putin and Sheiks.

    The loony elements of the Green movement oppose any and all exploration and extraction of domestic hydrocarbons. That does play into the hands of the likes of Putin who simply ignore those loons and do as they please.

    Dixiedean:

    One may say the same about those who have fought tooth and nail to prevent anything to restrict the demand side.
    We hear surprisingly little about that from the other side.
    It's going to take both to get anywhere near.

    Somebody made a good point, it isn't just green policy that's preventing fracking in the UK, its nimby-ism. Just as everybody supports other people paying higher taxes, so everybody supports cheaper gas drawn from fields near others.

    To make it work, the government needs incentives for people to agree for their areas to be fracked.
    Might see Nicola Sturgeon back-pedalling over North Sea oil and gas. Would cause ructions with the Greens, but hey, country comes first.
    Licence allocation is a UKG not devolved decision.
    Haven't you heard, it's entirely down to the SG that Cambo has been blocked, there isn't an indyref II and Scotland isn't taking refugees of various nationalities. Shocking dereliction of duty it is.
    I've been too busy with other things to do more than look in occasionally, so I've not been keeping up - but ISTR someome was earlier complaining about the lack of an indyref III or words to that effect. Not sure what happened to II. Unless the devolution one in 1978 is being muddled in.
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,388
    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/AceJaceu/status/1498304502704787457

    Turkish-built TB2s are putting in one hell of a shift. Very kind of the Russians to mark their vehicles up with a massive Z so that the drones know which ones to blow up.

    I guess the assumption was that the Russian air force would be the one needing to do the distinguishing.

    I don't know whether it's a reflection of Ukraine's success in the propaganda war more than reality, but the Russian air force seems like the weakest link of the Russian campaign to date.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,879

    Aslan said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Also:

    This should not be taken as an isolated incident. This is a clear sign that Kremlin's reputation cost is now literally 0. And this means a nuclear strike is becoming realistic.

    https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1498292779222458372

    He is right.
    That is ridiculous. Putin doesn't care about his reputation but he cares about full scale war with the West because he would lose. That is why a nuclear strike is not happening. Those pushing it are just trying to play the "don't poke the bear" card.
    Ask yourself this question, Asian.

    If Hitler had had the bomb, would he have used it to destroy the rest of the world as he faced certain defeat?

    Next question. If Hitler, why not Putin?
    Hitler, yes. The issue is whether he would have been obeyed, if Germany in turn faced atomic devastation.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,879
    edited February 2022

    "A Ukrainian woman and her 15-year-old diabetic daughter say they are feeling increasingly distraught after escaping the conflict in Ukraine only to be blocked from a visa the UK government announced on Sunday evening for which they are eligible."

    GRaun has a story. Their husband/father went and got them from Poland but got stuck at the British Embassy in Paris who wouldn't budge without the family paying £4K+.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/28/ukrainians-denied-entry-to-uk-despite-being-eligible-for-visa
  • Options
    Scott_xP said:

    More @yougov polling just published today - even higher support for an even more generous policy - huge majority (77%) supporting allowing Ukrainian refugees *without visas* to come to U.K. - huge majorities across all political divides. Nearly half *strongly* support. https://twitter.com/yougov/status/1498306911074238465

    I expect the announcement due shortly will mirror the EU
  • Options
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    MISTY said:

    dixiedean said:

    FPT. By @BartholomewRoberts

    I agree with you entirely but Russia's Useful Green Idiots have been opposing the bit in bold.

    @Richard_Tyndall is 100% right we need hydrocarbons to get us through the transition to clean energy and we should be developing our own instead of importing it from Putin and Sheiks.

    The loony elements of the Green movement oppose any and all exploration and extraction of domestic hydrocarbons. That does play into the hands of the likes of Putin who simply ignore those loons and do as they please.

    Dixiedean:

    One may say the same about those who have fought tooth and nail to prevent anything to restrict the demand side.
    We hear surprisingly little about that from the other side.
    It's going to take both to get anywhere near.

    Somebody made a good point, it isn't just green policy that's preventing fracking in the UK, its nimby-ism. Just as everybody supports other people paying higher taxes, so everybody supports cheaper gas drawn from fields near others.

    To make it work, the government needs incentives for people to agree for their areas to be fracked.
    Might see Nicola Sturgeon back-pedalling over North Sea oil and gas. Would cause ructions with the Greens, but hey, country comes first.
    Licence allocation is a UKG not devolved decision.
    Haven't you heard, it's entirely down to the SG that Cambo has been blocked, there isn't an indyref II and Scotland isn't taking refugees of various nationalities. Shocking dereliction of duty it is.
    I've been too busy with other things to do more than look in occasionally, so I've not been keeping up - but ISTR someome was earlier complaining about the lack of an indyref III or words to that effect. Not sure what happened to II. Unless the devolution one in 1978 is being muddled in.
    1979 was being muddled in; the interpretation of it being 'lost' was also notable.

    Them Nats always be wanting indy referendums, give em an inch etc = one referendum on independence in 315 years.

  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,927
    edited February 2022

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/AceJaceu/status/1498304502704787457

    Turkish-built TB2s are putting in one hell of a shift. Very kind of the Russians to mark their vehicles up with a massive Z so that the drones know which ones to blow up.

    I guess the assumption was that the Russian air force would be the one needing to do the distinguishing.

    I don't know whether it's a reflection of Ukraine's success in the propaganda war more than reality, but the Russian air force seems like the weakest link of the Russian campaign to date.
    The problem they have, is that there’s not columns of Ukranian tanks and missile launchers running around.

    The anti-tank weapons are handheld and invisible, the NATO anti-aircraft weapons not much bigger and easily hidden in cities.

    The Russians sent missiles to UA military bases on Day 1, but haven’t really followed up. Rumour that they don’t have many of them! Russian fighter planes in Ukraine have been almost all shot out of the sky. Still no pictures of the two IL-76 transporters allegedly shot down a couple of days ago though, that might be ‘fog of war’. Pictures of paratroopers dropped in the freezing sea were rather indicative of the Russian ineptness.
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,879

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    MISTY said:

    dixiedean said:

    FPT. By @BartholomewRoberts

    I agree with you entirely but Russia's Useful Green Idiots have been opposing the bit in bold.

    @Richard_Tyndall is 100% right we need hydrocarbons to get us through the transition to clean energy and we should be developing our own instead of importing it from Putin and Sheiks.

    The loony elements of the Green movement oppose any and all exploration and extraction of domestic hydrocarbons. That does play into the hands of the likes of Putin who simply ignore those loons and do as they please.

    Dixiedean:

    One may say the same about those who have fought tooth and nail to prevent anything to restrict the demand side.
    We hear surprisingly little about that from the other side.
    It's going to take both to get anywhere near.

    Somebody made a good point, it isn't just green policy that's preventing fracking in the UK, its nimby-ism. Just as everybody supports other people paying higher taxes, so everybody supports cheaper gas drawn from fields near others.

    To make it work, the government needs incentives for people to agree for their areas to be fracked.
    Might see Nicola Sturgeon back-pedalling over North Sea oil and gas. Would cause ructions with the Greens, but hey, country comes first.
    Licence allocation is a UKG not devolved decision.
    Haven't you heard, it's entirely down to the SG that Cambo has been blocked, there isn't an indyref II and Scotland isn't taking refugees of various nationalities. Shocking dereliction of duty it is.
    I've been too busy with other things to do more than look in occasionally, so I've not been keeping up - but ISTR someome was earlier complaining about the lack of an indyref III or words to that effect. Not sure what happened to II. Unless the devolution one in 1978 is being muddled in.
    1979 was being muddled in; the interpretation of it being 'lost' was also notable.

    Them Nats always be wanting indy referendums, give em an inch etc = one referendum on independence in 315 years.

    Thanks, I was wondering.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,310
    Scott_xP said:

    More @yougov polling just published today - even higher support for an even more generous policy - huge majority (77%) supporting allowing Ukrainian refugees *without visas* to come to U.K. - huge majorities across all political divides. Nearly half *strongly* support. https://twitter.com/yougov/status/1498306911074238465

    We might do it then. Good to see that polling if it's accurate. Somebody posted polling the other day showing the opposite - that most Con 19 voters felt we had no moral duty to take people in from Ukraine.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,095
    Breaking - FIFA set to suspend Russian teams from international football until further notice. Confirmation of decision expected later today.
    https://twitter.com/sgevans/status/1498310064733663233
  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Scott_xP said:

    Breaking - FIFA set to suspend Russian teams from international football until further notice. Confirmation of decision expected later today.
    https://twitter.com/sgevans/status/1498310064733663233

    Completely suspend or allow them to play as the "Russian Football Union" or some such?
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,749
    Scott_xP said:

    Breaking - FIFA set to suspend Russian teams from international football until further notice. Confirmation of decision expected later today.
    https://twitter.com/sgevans/status/1498310064733663233

    Begrudgingly bowing to the inevitable. Five days too late.
  • Options

    @AFP
    #BREAKING US recommends Americans in Russia leave 'immediately': State Dept


    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1498303955415277582

    They said this yesterday
    Might as well leave, they wont be able to get any money out of the ATM to buy food soon.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,044
    MISTY said:

    dixiedean said:

    FPT. By @BartholomewRoberts

    I agree with you entirely but Russia's Useful Green Idiots have been opposing the bit in bold.

    @Richard_Tyndall is 100% right we need hydrocarbons to get us through the transition to clean energy and we should be developing our own instead of importing it from Putin and Sheiks.

    The loony elements of the Green movement oppose any and all exploration and extraction of domestic hydrocarbons. That does play into the hands of the likes of Putin who simply ignore those loons and do as they please.

    Dixiedean:

    One may say the same about those who have fought tooth and nail to prevent anything to restrict the demand side.
    We hear surprisingly little about that from the other side.
    It's going to take both to get anywhere near.

    Somebody made a good point, it isn't just green policy that's preventing fracking in the UK, its nimby-ism. Just as everybody supports other people paying higher taxes, so everybody supports cheaper gas drawn from fields near others.

    To make it work, the government needs incentives for people to agree for their areas to be fracked.
    While I agree with this in principle, the problem is that it is by no means clear that on-shore shale (i.e fracking) is economic in the UK.

    If you look at the various shale gas regions in the US - the Marcellus, Fayetville, Antrim, Haynesvlle, etc. - you find that a couple are being developed at pace, and a couple of basically been abandoned. Why? Because if it costs $3 to get gas out the ground in the Marcellus and $12 in the Antrim, then that Antrim shale is not economic. If the gas price is $7, then the Marcellus operators are making out like banditos, while the Antrim ones simply aren't drilling.

    There are good reasons to think that on-shore shale in the UK is going to be significantly more expensive to develop than in the US. Firstly, we're simply a lot more populated. Most US shale gas is in regions with big ranches and not a lot of people. Land is cheap. Disruption is small. Secondly, the US has a large number of drilling rigs. There are plenty of oil/gas drilling workers and day rates are low. Thirdly, we simply don't know enough about the geology to know whether the Bowland shale is like the Marcellus (or better), or like the Antrim (or worse). And the willingness of oil and gas companies to take both significant geological and pricing risk in the UK is not high.

    I would suggest that there are a couple of things - above and beyond removing the ban on fracking that can be done. The most important of these would be tax incentives to gas generators to enter into long term supply contracts with UK shale gas operators would be the most important. This would remove the price risk for an IGas or other UK shale gas player. It would also enable the UK to (relatively) quickly get a handle on what the right price of Bowland shale gas is likely to be. (And it's not a million miles different to what the German government did with solar.)
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,661
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    MISTY said:

    dixiedean said:

    FPT. By @BartholomewRoberts

    I agree with you entirely but Russia's Useful Green Idiots have been opposing the bit in bold.

    @Richard_Tyndall is 100% right we need hydrocarbons to get us through the transition to clean energy and we should be developing our own instead of importing it from Putin and Sheiks.

    The loony elements of the Green movement oppose any and all exploration and extraction of domestic hydrocarbons. That does play into the hands of the likes of Putin who simply ignore those loons and do as they please.

    Dixiedean:

    One may say the same about those who have fought tooth and nail to prevent anything to restrict the demand side.
    We hear surprisingly little about that from the other side.
    It's going to take both to get anywhere near.

    Somebody made a good point, it isn't just green policy that's preventing fracking in the UK, its nimby-ism. Just as everybody supports other people paying higher taxes, so everybody supports cheaper gas drawn from fields near others.

    To make it work, the government needs incentives for people to agree for their areas to be fracked.
    Might see Nicola Sturgeon back-pedalling over North Sea oil and gas. Would cause ructions with the Greens, but hey, country comes first.
    Licence allocation is a UKG not devolved decision.
    Haven't you heard, it's entirely down to the SG that Cambo has been blocked, there isn't an indyref II and Scotland isn't taking refugees of various nationalities. Shocking dereliction of duty it is.
    I've been too busy with other things to do more than look in occasionally, so I've not been keeping up - but ISTR someome was earlier complaining about the lack of an indyref III or words to that effect. Not sure what happened to II. Unless the devolution one in 1978 is being muddled in.
    1979 was being muddled in; the interpretation of it being 'lost' was also notable.

    Them Nats always be wanting indy referendums, give em an inch etc = one referendum on independence in 315 years.

    Thanks, I was wondering.
    There's an idea. Let's be Greenland Sharks and 300 years is a generation ... :smile:
  • Options
    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/AceJaceu/status/1498304502704787457

    Turkish-built TB2s are putting in one hell of a shift. Very kind of the Russians to mark their vehicles up with a massive Z so that the drones know which ones to blow up.

    Every army in the world is going to be putting in orders for TB2s.
  • Options
    ChameleonChameleon Posts: 3,886
    https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1498312223214743552

    Plenty of footage out of Berdyansk of unamused locals.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137

    @AFP
    #BREAKING US recommends Americans in Russia leave 'immediately': State Dept


    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1498303955415277582

    They said this yesterday
    Might as well leave, they wont be able to get any money out of the ATM to buy food soon.
    What food?
  • Options
    TimSTimS Posts: 9,719
    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    More @yougov polling just published today - even higher support for an even more generous policy - huge majority (77%) supporting allowing Ukrainian refugees *without visas* to come to U.K. - huge majorities across all political divides. Nearly half *strongly* support. https://twitter.com/yougov/status/1498306911074238465

    We might do it then. Good to see that polling if it's accurate. Somebody posted polling the other day showing the opposite - that most Con 19 voters felt we had no moral duty to take people in from Ukraine.
    I think people follow the herd on issues like this, and the less politically engaged may only have woken up to the disaster in Ukraine and the fact the refugees are the goodies.

    Basically the usual tick tick tick until the comprehensive u-turn. Why do the Tories repeatedly put out completely stupid, unnecessarily callous positions on issues like this, send ministers and MPs out to make fools of themselves defending it, then progressively u-turn? Over and over again.
  • Options
    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,454

    Carnyx said:

    MISTY said:

    dixiedean said:

    FPT. By @BartholomewRoberts

    I agree with you entirely but Russia's Useful Green Idiots have been opposing the bit in bold.

    @Richard_Tyndall is 100% right we need hydrocarbons to get us through the transition to clean energy and we should be developing our own instead of importing it from Putin and Sheiks.

    The loony elements of the Green movement oppose any and all exploration and extraction of domestic hydrocarbons. That does play into the hands of the likes of Putin who simply ignore those loons and do as they please.

    Dixiedean:

    One may say the same about those who have fought tooth and nail to prevent anything to restrict the demand side.
    We hear surprisingly little about that from the other side.
    It's going to take both to get anywhere near.

    Somebody made a good point, it isn't just green policy that's preventing fracking in the UK, its nimby-ism. Just as everybody supports other people paying higher taxes, so everybody supports cheaper gas drawn from fields near others.

    To make it work, the government needs incentives for people to agree for their areas to be fracked.
    Might see Nicola Sturgeon back-pedalling over North Sea oil and gas. Would cause ructions with the Greens, but hey, country comes first.
    Licence allocation is a UKG not devolved decision.
    Haven't you heard, it's entirely down to the SG that Cambo has been blocked, there isn't an indyref II and Scotland isn't taking refugees of various nationalities. Shocking dereliction of duty it is.
    Groan.

    I very much hope and expect the UK Government to ignore Holyrood on this issue, but there's no doubt that the outspoken opposition of Sturgeon et al is putting the sector off from investing in the North Sea. They hate political uncertainty. Best thing would be for her to backtrack - and save thousands of jobs while she's at it.
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    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Michael Flynn wrote another op-ed for Russia, saying Putin has "legitimate security concerns."
    https://mobile.twitter.com/PiperK/status/1498113706693214208

    Flynn is the pits. Amidst a gruesome throng he manages to stand out.
    He's the uncle of a woman my wife went to high school with. My wife learnt some Russian (for fun, she likes learning languages) and so we now refer to him as "Dyadya Mischa" ("Uncle Mike").
  • Options
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Michael Flynn wrote another op-ed for Russia, saying Putin has "legitimate security concerns."
    https://mobile.twitter.com/PiperK/status/1498113706693214208

    Flynn is the pits. Amidst a gruesome throng he manages to stand out.
    A common trope is that wokies, progressives & lefties should condemn less and understand more. I get the principle but it's one I'm entirely unable to adhere to when I've seen/heard the adulatory crowds at a Flynn prayer meeting (I know they're not prayer meetings but that's the vibe).

    I'm waiting for the first 'the libtards forced these fine, upstanding people to look at the alternative' in relation to Ukraine.
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    Christophe Barraud🛢@C_Barraud🇷🇺 RUSSIAN CENBANK GOVERNOR SAYS HIGH DEMAND FOR CASH HAS SENT BANKING SECTOR INTO STRUCTURAL DEFICIT OF LIQUIDITY - RTRS
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,100
    kinabalu said:

    Scott_xP said:

    More @yougov polling just published today - even higher support for an even more generous policy - huge majority (77%) supporting allowing Ukrainian refugees *without visas* to come to U.K. - huge majorities across all political divides. Nearly half *strongly* support. https://twitter.com/yougov/status/1498306911074238465

    We might do it then. Good to see that polling if it's accurate. Somebody posted polling the other day showing the opposite - that most Con 19 voters felt we had no moral duty to take people in from Ukraine.
    You can get support for taking a few in.

    Only 9% of British voters however support taking in 100s of thousands of Ukranian refugees

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1497568020738289672?s=20&t=gr4sKFKuZXcOFLeS1MloOg
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,100
    77% of British voters support more economic sanctions against Russia. 60% support sending more weapons to Ukraine.

    54% support sending additional NATO forces to Eastern Europe.

    Only 26% support sending UK troops to Ukraine however and only 31% support air strikes against Russian forces in Ukraine
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1498249935095058439?s=20&t=gr4sKFKuZXcOFLeS1MloOg
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,661

    Scott_xP said:

    Switzerland just sanctioned Russia and closed it’s airspace to Russian aircraft https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1498293462898294784/photo/1

    Closing the airspace was slightly academic as they couldn’t have got there anyway - there’s an Aeroflot 320 stuck in Geneva because of that.
    On airspace, does "closure" mean the entire region administered by that country ie in our case hundreds of km into the Atlantic, or is it just up to 12 miles off the coast?

    And can Aeroflot still fly through where adjoining 12 mile regions meet - eg through the Skagerrak and Baltic or along the Channel to get home?

    A detail point that I have not had reason to consider before.
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    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited February 2022
    Sandpit said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/AceJaceu/status/1498304502704787457

    Turkish-built TB2s are putting in one hell of a shift. Very kind of the Russians to mark their vehicles up with a massive Z so that the drones know which ones to blow up.

    I guess the assumption was that the Russian air force would be the one needing to do the distinguishing.

    I don't know whether it's a reflection of Ukraine's success in the propaganda war more than reality, but the Russian air force seems like the weakest link of the Russian campaign to date.
    The problem they have, is that there’s not columns of Ukranian tanks and missile launchers running around.

    The anti-tank weapons are handheld and invisible, the NATO anti-aircraft weapons not much bigger and easily hidden in cities.

    The Russians sent missiles to UA military bases on Day 1, but haven’t really followed up. Rumour that they don’t have many of them! Russian fighter planes in Ukraine have been almost all shot out of the sky. Still no pictures of the two IL-76 transporters allegedly shot down a couple of days ago though, that might be ‘fog of war’. Pictures of paratroopers dropped in the freezing sea were rather indicative of the Russian ineptness.
    This does feel something like a re-run of the Russo-FInnish Winter War of 1939-40. Russians go expecting a walkover but prove disastrously unprepared. The defenders adopt hit and run tactics, multiplying their force effectiveness and demoralizing the aggressors. It's stingers, drones and anti-tank missiles this time around, not ski-borne snipers, and Molotov cocktails (so-named if not invented by the Finns), but the chopping up of stuck columns is reminiscent of the Finnish motti

    Of course the Finns were defeated in the end, losing a huge swathe of territory and resources, but they did keep their independence.

  • Options
    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,244
    HYUFD said:

    77% of British voters support more economic sanctions against Russia. 60% support sending more weapons to Ukraine.

    54% support sending additional NATO forces to Eastern Europe.

    Only 26% support sending UK troops to Ukraine however and only 31% support air strikes against Russian forces in Ukraine
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1498249935095058439?s=20&t=gr4sKFKuZXcOFLeS1MloOg

    As many as 31% want British planes to bomb Russia forces!!
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,095
    MattW said:

    And can Aeroflot still fly through where adjoining 12 mile regions meet - eg through the Skagerrak and Baltic or along the Channel to get home?

    If the airspace on both sides of the join is closed, surely not?
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    MaxPB said:

    The government, to my great surprise, has done very well on the Ukraine crisis so far, yet the refugee stance risks undoing a lot of that good work. These people are in need of a safe nation to reside in temporarily and we should enable them to come here. Ukrainians are very patriotic people and once Ukraine has been made safe to return I doubt many will decide not to go back and those who don't we should be happy for them to stay.

    Priti Patel has once again showed why she's unsuitable for the leadership.

    She is unsuitable full stop
  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited February 2022
    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Switzerland just sanctioned Russia and closed it’s airspace to Russian aircraft https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1498293462898294784/photo/1

    Closing the airspace was slightly academic as they couldn’t have got there anyway - there’s an Aeroflot 320 stuck in Geneva because of that.
    On airspace, does "closure" mean the entire region administered by that country ie in our case hundreds of km into the Atlantic, or is it just up to 12 miles off the coast?

    And can Aeroflot still fly through where adjoining 12 mile regions meet - eg through the Skagerrak and Baltic or along the Channel to get home?

    A detail point that I have not had reason to consider before.
    Land and territorial waters, so yes, up to 12 nautical miles from the coast.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,498
    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Switzerland just sanctioned Russia and closed it’s airspace to Russian aircraft https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1498293462898294784/photo/1

    Closing the airspace was slightly academic as they couldn’t have got there anyway - there’s an Aeroflot 320 stuck in Geneva because of that.
    On airspace, does "closure" mean the entire region administered by that country ie in our case hundreds of km into the Atlantic, or is it just up to 12 miles off the coast?

    And can Aeroflot still fly through where adjoining 12 mile regions meet - eg through the Skagerrak and Baltic or along the Channel to get home?

    A detail point that I have not had reason to consider before.
    Russian flights seem to be heading over the Arctic - so I guess no.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,796

    Christophe Barraud🛢@C_Barraud🇷🇺 RUSSIAN CENBANK GOVERNOR SAYS HIGH DEMAND FOR CASH HAS SENT BANKING SECTOR INTO STRUCTURAL DEFICIT OF LIQUIDITY - RTRS

    They can have their toys back if they get rid of Putin, disarm completely, return all of the Ukrainian territory, and ask very, very nicely.

    I wonder what Ukraine will actually choose to inflict upon them?
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    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,454

    Scott_xP said:

    More @yougov polling just published today - even higher support for an even more generous policy - huge majority (77%) supporting allowing Ukrainian refugees *without visas* to come to U.K. - huge majorities across all political divides. Nearly half *strongly* support. https://twitter.com/yougov/status/1498306911074238465

    I expect the announcement due shortly will mirror the EU
    I hope UK Govt gets on with it. Shouldn't let this issue detract from a pretty sound record on Ukraine and Russia.
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    EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,914
    Looks like a cyber attack has knocked out 6000 wind turbines in Germany (to an extent).
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    edited February 2022
    Also pleasantly surprised that the government has pushed additional sanctions via the city and locked Russian companies out of the capital markets and derivatives clearing. We could quickly get to a position where Russian companies are unable to make payroll because they've run out of cash.

    The UK sanctions started slowly but it's extremely tough now, the last step will be to halt the Russian government from raising money in London, I think that's in the pipeline too but needs careful legal thinking.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,044

    Scott_xP said:

    Switzerland just sanctioned Russia and closed it’s airspace to Russian aircraft https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1498293462898294784/photo/1

    Closing the airspace was slightly academic as they couldn’t have got there anyway - there’s an Aeroflot 320 stuck in Geneva because of that.
    The Aeroflot A320 is probably owned by AerCap and will be repossessed as Aerfolot will no longer be able to make payments.

    (Interestingly, AerCap is down 13% today. It's not only me that's noticed that it'll be hammered by sanctions.)
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,057

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/AceJaceu/status/1498304502704787457

    Turkish-built TB2s are putting in one hell of a shift. Very kind of the Russians to mark their vehicles up with a massive Z so that the drones know which ones to blow up.

    Every army in the world is going to be putting in orders for TB2s.
    The odd thing is, if Mrs J had remained in Turkey she might well have been working on such systems.

    How a decision changes your life (for the better, hopefully.)
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,100
    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    77% of British voters support more economic sanctions against Russia. 60% support sending more weapons to Ukraine.

    54% support sending additional NATO forces to Eastern Europe.

    Only 26% support sending UK troops to Ukraine however and only 31% support air strikes against Russian forces in Ukraine
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1498249935095058439?s=20&t=gr4sKFKuZXcOFLeS1MloOg

    As many as 31% want British planes to bomb Russia forces!!
    42% however do not.

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/fvgp0n8nwr/YouGov - Ukraine conflict and Russian sanctions.pdf
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,095
    #Parliament is working! We gathered as leaders of the factions to vote for the important matters:
    - appeal to #EU for Ukraine to join EU on a simplified procedure
    - appeal to remove #Russia from UN Security Counsel
    - prepping legislation to freeze Russian assets inside Ukraine 🇺🇦
    https://twitter.com/kiraincongress/status/1498315548807028737/photo/1
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,520

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Michael Flynn wrote another op-ed for Russia, saying Putin has "legitimate security concerns."
    https://mobile.twitter.com/PiperK/status/1498113706693214208

    Flynn is the pits. Amidst a gruesome throng he manages to stand out.
    A common trope is that wokies, progressives & lefties should condemn less and understand more. I get the principle but it's one I'm entirely unable to adhere to when I've seen/heard the adulatory crowds at a Flynn prayer meeting (I know they're not prayer meetings but that's the vibe).

    I'm waiting for the first 'the libtards forced these fine, upstanding people to look at the alternative' in relation to Ukraine.
    Everyone has a list of "Never listen to them - just shoot", everyone has a list of "They may be a bit of a bunch of bastards, but they have a point"

    I tend towards the Rondas Campesinas approach.......
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    BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,454
    rpjs said:

    Sandpit said:

    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/AceJaceu/status/1498304502704787457

    Turkish-built TB2s are putting in one hell of a shift. Very kind of the Russians to mark their vehicles up with a massive Z so that the drones know which ones to blow up.

    I guess the assumption was that the Russian air force would be the one needing to do the distinguishing.

    I don't know whether it's a reflection of Ukraine's success in the propaganda war more than reality, but the Russian air force seems like the weakest link of the Russian campaign to date.
    The problem they have, is that there’s not columns of Ukranian tanks and missile launchers running around.

    The anti-tank weapons are handheld and invisible, the NATO anti-aircraft weapons not much bigger and easily hidden in cities.

    The Russians sent missiles to UA military bases on Day 1, but haven’t really followed up. Rumour that they don’t have many of them! Russian fighter planes in Ukraine have been almost all shot out of the sky. Still no pictures of the two IL-76 transporters allegedly shot down a couple of days ago though, that might be ‘fog of war’. Pictures of paratroopers dropped in the freezing sea were rather indicative of the Russian ineptness.
    This does feel something like a re-run of the Russo-FInnish Winter War of 1939-40. Russians go expecting a walkover but prove disastrously unprepared. The defenders adopt hit and run tactics, multiplying their force effectiveness and demoralizing the aggressors. It's stingers, drones and anti-tank missiles this time around, not ski-borne snipers, and Molotov cocktails (so-named if not invented by the Finns), but the chopping up of stuck columns is reminiscent of the Finnish motti

    Of course the Finns were defeated in the end, losing a huge swathe of territory and resources, but they did keep their independence.

    I don't know a lot of Finns but the ones I do know are very conscious of the Winter War and the courage and resourcefulness of their forces. Sadly, I don't suppose they'll ever get Karelia back.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,100
    MaxPB said:

    The government, to my great surprise, has done very well on the Ukraine crisis so far, yet the refugee stance risks undoing a lot of that good work. These people are in need of a safe nation to reside in temporarily and we should enable them to come here. Ukrainians are very patriotic people and once Ukraine has been made safe to return I doubt many will decide not to go back and those who don't we should be happy for them to stay.

    Priti Patel has once again showed why she's unsuitable for the leadership.

    Yet it is Liz Truss who the Russians have blamed for putting their nuclear arsenal on alert.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60558048

    Yes we can take some refugees but the public are quite clear we cannot take hundreds of thousands of them
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1497568020738289672?s=20&t=gr4sKFKuZXcOFLeS1MloOg
  • Options
    Cookie said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Switzerland just sanctioned Russia and closed it’s airspace to Russian aircraft https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1498293462898294784/photo/1

    Closing the airspace was slightly academic as they couldn’t have got there anyway - there’s an Aeroflot 320 stuck in Geneva because of that.
    On airspace, does "closure" mean the entire region administered by that country ie in our case hundreds of km into the Atlantic, or is it just up to 12 miles off the coast?

    And can Aeroflot still fly through where adjoining 12 mile regions meet - eg through the Skagerrak and Baltic or along the Channel to get home?

    A detail point that I have not had reason to consider before.
    Russian flights seem to be heading over the Arctic - so I guess no.
    Shades of the cold war.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,661

    IshmaelZ said:

    Also:

    This should not be taken as an isolated incident. This is a clear sign that Kremlin's reputation cost is now literally 0. And this means a nuclear strike is becoming realistic.

    https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1498292779222458372

    He is right.
    I sometimes favour the kind of unorthodox concepts often immediately dismissed as nonsense in the modern world, or at least at times, I have what I think is a logically grounded interest in them.

    A global "psychic" effort to help remove or or kill him would certainly do no harm, if nothing else.
    Activate the Natural Law Party.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,520
    Omnium said:

    Christophe Barraud🛢@C_Barraud🇷🇺 RUSSIAN CENBANK GOVERNOR SAYS HIGH DEMAND FOR CASH HAS SENT BANKING SECTOR INTO STRUCTURAL DEFICIT OF LIQUIDITY - RTRS

    They can have their toys back if they get rid of Putin, disarm completely, return all of the Ukrainian territory, and ask very, very nicely.

    I wonder what Ukraine will actually choose to inflict upon them?
    Send Putin a Walther PPK 7.65mm
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,303
    edited February 2022
    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Also:

    This should not be taken as an isolated incident. This is a clear sign that Kremlin's reputation cost is now literally 0. And this means a nuclear strike is becoming realistic.

    https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1498292779222458372

    He is right.
    Yes. He is right.

    Imagine you’re Putin. You’re losing. Or the only way you can win is by grotesque brutality. The west is already United against you.

    Then you might as well go the whole hog and launch a tactical nuke on some medium sized Ukrainian city. Instantly terrorising the entire country, winning the war in a stroke, striking deep fear into the west, and you kind of gain everything

    The madman theory. I can easily see him doing it. And how would we respond? We would not fire nukes back
    I agree, until the final sentence.

    We need to be able to press the button back. Otherwise it's not a deterrent.

    I don't think Sleepy Joe would do it but others? Hopefully.
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,425
    Another grim video from Kharkiv. No bodies or gore, but just the terrible sound of missiles slamming into ordinary neighborhoods, with people shopping, and the consequent screams and chaos

    https://twitter.com/fanelgaut/status/1498315487628996619?s=20&t=o7bdEtafvlzfyUg4-eheCQ

    This is Hitlerite shite
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,965
    The conditions for Ukranian entry ought to be reaosnably simple.

    No men between 18 and 60 (They're forbidden from leaving). Knowledge of Ukranian.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,282
    .
    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    The government, to my great surprise, has done very well on the Ukraine crisis so far, yet the refugee stance risks undoing a lot of that good work. These people are in need of a safe nation to reside in temporarily and we should enable them to come here. Ukrainians are very patriotic people and once Ukraine has been made safe to return I doubt many will decide not to go back and those who don't we should be happy for them to stay.

    Priti Patel has once again showed why she's unsuitable for the leadership.

    Yet it is Liz Truss who the Russians have blamed for putting their nuclear arsenal on alert.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60558048

    Yes we can take some refugees but the public are quite clear we cannot take hundreds of thousands of them
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1497568020738289672?s=20&t=gr4sKFKuZXcOFLeS1MloOg
    I don't like Liz Truss. Nonetheless Russia's accusation that Liz Truss sent them to the brink of Armageddon is an absolute crock...

    Paragraph two. In the words of Bob the Builder "Yes we can"!
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    eekeek Posts: 25,009
    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    The government, to my great surprise, has done very well on the Ukraine crisis so far, yet the refugee stance risks undoing a lot of that good work. These people are in need of a safe nation to reside in temporarily and we should enable them to come here. Ukrainians are very patriotic people and once Ukraine has been made safe to return I doubt many will decide not to go back and those who don't we should be happy for them to stay.

    Priti Patel has once again showed why she's unsuitable for the leadership.

    Yet it is Liz Truss who the Russians have blamed for putting their nuclear arsenal on alert.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60558048

    Yes we can take some refugees but the public are quite clear we cannot take hundreds of thousands of them
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1497568020738289672?s=20&t=gr4sKFKuZXcOFLeS1MloOg
    The thing is that by being so tough on immigration and not being honest when announcing their last "change" as to how limited it was when you read the detail Bozo is going to have to be way more generous than would have been necessary even yesterday.

    Yesterday allowing family members in would have been enough - today it isn't.....
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    The government, to my great surprise, has done very well on the Ukraine crisis so far, yet the refugee stance risks undoing a lot of that good work. These people are in need of a safe nation to reside in temporarily and we should enable them to come here. Ukrainians are very patriotic people and once Ukraine has been made safe to return I doubt many will decide not to go back and those who don't we should be happy for them to stay.

    Priti Patel has once again showed why she's unsuitable for the leadership.

    Yet it is Liz Truss who the Russians have blamed for putting their nuclear arsenal on alert.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60558048

    Yes we can take some refugees but the public are quite clear we cannot take hundreds of thousands of them
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1497568020738289672?s=20&t=gr4sKFKuZXcOFLeS1MloOg
    That Russian claim is laughable. Repeating Putin propaganda is ridiculous.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,347
    edited February 2022
    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    The government, to my great surprise, has done very well on the Ukraine crisis so far, yet the refugee stance risks undoing a lot of that good work. These people are in need of a safe nation to reside in temporarily and we should enable them to come here. Ukrainians are very patriotic people and once Ukraine has been made safe to return I doubt many will decide not to go back and those who don't we should be happy for them to stay.

    Priti Patel has once again showed why she's unsuitable for the leadership.

    Yet it is Liz Truss who the Russians have blamed for putting their nuclear arsenal on alert.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60558048

    Yes we can take some refugees but the public are quite clear we cannot take hundreds of thousands of them
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1497568020738289672?s=20&t=gr4sKFKuZXcOFLeS1MloOg
    Again right wing ante immigration attitude nuanced in your posts

    Of course numbers need to be considered, but right now most want to stay in the area around Ukraine but your attitude damages public sentiment that we should not put barriers in the way of Ukrainians seeking asylum here
  • Options
    Alec Luhn
    @ASLuhn
    ·
    1h
    "Go home!" Ukrainians chant at Russian soldiers at the city council building in Berdyansk

    https://twitter.com/ASLuhn/status/1498297874836336644
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    eekeek Posts: 25,009

    Christophe Barraud🛢@C_Barraud🇷🇺 RUSSIAN CENBANK GOVERNOR SAYS HIGH DEMAND FOR CASH HAS SENT BANKING SECTOR INTO STRUCTURAL DEFICIT OF LIQUIDITY - RTRS

    That's an interesting way to say Bankrupt.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,282
    HYUFD said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    77% of British voters support more economic sanctions against Russia. 60% support sending more weapons to Ukraine.

    54% support sending additional NATO forces to Eastern Europe.

    Only 26% support sending UK troops to Ukraine however and only 31% support air strikes against Russian forces in Ukraine
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1498249935095058439?s=20&t=gr4sKFKuZXcOFLeS1MloOg

    As many as 31% want British planes to bomb Russia forces!!
    42% however do not.

    https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/fvgp0n8nwr/YouGov - Ukraine conflict and Russian sanctions.pdf
    Perhaps on occasions, polling outcomes should cede to the moral case.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,796

    Omnium said:

    Christophe Barraud🛢@C_Barraud🇷🇺 RUSSIAN CENBANK GOVERNOR SAYS HIGH DEMAND FOR CASH HAS SENT BANKING SECTOR INTO STRUCTURAL DEFICIT OF LIQUIDITY - RTRS

    They can have their toys back if they get rid of Putin, disarm completely, return all of the Ukrainian territory, and ask very, very nicely.

    I wonder what Ukraine will actually choose to inflict upon them?
    Send Putin a Walther PPK 7.65mm
    Actually perhaps see if Kim Jong Il would like a pet Putin. If he'd throw in losing his own nukes then I think we could sign a Truss-limitation deal too.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,661

    Bulgaria’s prime minister has demanded the dismissal of his defense minister, for taking a soft line on Vladimir Putin’s war in Ukraine. The political showdown exposes Bulgaria as a key front line in Moscow’s push for influence in the EU.

    https://twitter.com/POLITICOEurope/status/1498295455343644677

    Sorry - lots of posts in a short time.

    Why can't a Bulgarian PM dismiss his Defence Minister?

    Is it one of these locked in proportional coalitions where everything has to change at once after X years?
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,095
    Woefully inadequate

    100,000 Ukranains fleeing Russian invasion to be offered sanctuary in the UK @pritipatel announces.
    https://twitter.com/Torcuil/status/1498317167237992454
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,100
    Heathener said:

    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Also:

    This should not be taken as an isolated incident. This is a clear sign that Kremlin's reputation cost is now literally 0. And this means a nuclear strike is becoming realistic.

    https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1498292779222458372

    He is right.
    Yes. He is right.

    Imagine you’re Putin. You’re losing. Or the only way you can win is by grotesque brutality. The west is already United against you.

    Then you might as well go the whole hog and launch a tactical nuke on some medium sized Ukrainian city. Instantly terrorising the entire country, winning the war in a stroke, striking deep fear into the west, and you kind of gain everything

    The madman theory. I can easily see him doing it. And how would we respond? We would not fire nukes back
    I agree, until the final sentence.

    We need to be able to press the button back. Otherwise it's not a deterrent.

    I don't think Sleepy Joe would do it but others? Hopefully.
    If DC, New York city and LA and US military bases were hit by Russian nuclear missiles of course Biden would launch a nuclear attack on Moscow and St Petersburg.

    As would Boris if London was hit and Macron if Paris was hit.

    However if Putin sent nukes into Ukraine I am not sure that would lead to the same response, even if Russia became a pariah
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    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited February 2022
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    The government, to my great surprise, has done very well on the Ukraine crisis so far, yet the refugee stance risks undoing a lot of that good work. These people are in need of a safe nation to reside in temporarily and we should enable them to come here. Ukrainians are very patriotic people and once Ukraine has been made safe to return I doubt many will decide not to go back and those who don't we should be happy for them to stay.

    Priti Patel has once again showed why she's unsuitable for the leadership.

    Yet it is Liz Truss who the Russians have blamed for putting their nuclear arsenal on alert.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60558048

    Yes we can take some refugees but the public are quite clear we cannot take hundreds of thousands of them
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1497568020738289672?s=20&t=gr4sKFKuZXcOFLeS1MloOg
    The thing is that by being so tough on immigration and not being honest when announcing their last "change" as to how limited it was when you read the detail Bozo is going to have to be way more generous than would have been necessary even yesterday.

    Yesterday allowing family members in would have been enough - today it isn't.....
    It's also going to make it virtually impossible to raise eastern european immigration as an issue if a Starmer-Lib Dem coalition wants to bring the single market back in. What sort of message of solidarity will that be ? Single market here we come in the long-run, I think..
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    ChameleonChameleon Posts: 3,886
    https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1498316705591963654

    This thread is worth following - each tweet is separate russian column/unit that has been destroyed.

    Yet more supply and engineering columns blown off the face of the earth.
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    ...


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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,044
    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    The government, to my great surprise, has done very well on the Ukraine crisis so far, yet the refugee stance risks undoing a lot of that good work. These people are in need of a safe nation to reside in temporarily and we should enable them to come here. Ukrainians are very patriotic people and once Ukraine has been made safe to return I doubt many will decide not to go back and those who don't we should be happy for them to stay.

    Priti Patel has once again showed why she's unsuitable for the leadership.

    Yet it is Liz Truss who the Russians have blamed for putting their nuclear arsenal on alert.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60558048

    Yes we can take some refugees but the public are quite clear we cannot take hundreds of thousands of them
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1497568020738289672?s=20&t=gr4sKFKuZXcOFLeS1MloOg
    That Russian claim is laughable. Repeating Putin propaganda is ridiculous.
    Max - can't you see the... errr... legitimate security concerns of the Russians like... errr... the legitimate security concerns. If only we'd listened to the... errr... legitimate security concern the Russians wouldn't have been backed into a corner and forced to do what they didn't want to do, to invade and threaten threaten the world with nuclear weapons.
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    moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,244
    What do you suppose a US Blackhawk helicopter is doing tracking along the Polish border near Lviv?
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,095
    Home Secretary says 'immediate' family members of Ukrainians can come to the UK for 12 months, as long as they pass security checks - same measures used for those fleeing Afghanistan etc
    @SkyNews
    @pritipatel says this would potentially help 100,000 Ukrainians who could qualify.

    https://twitter.com/skysarahjane/status/1498317958120157184
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,796
    Scott_xP said:

    Woefully inadequate

    100,000 Ukranains fleeing Russian invasion to be offered sanctuary in the UK @pritipatel announces.
    https://twitter.com/Torcuil/status/1498317167237992454

    Perhaps, but it is a good step.
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    MISTYMISTY Posts: 1,594
    eek said:

    Christophe Barraud🛢@C_Barraud🇷🇺 RUSSIAN CENBANK GOVERNOR SAYS HIGH DEMAND FOR CASH HAS SENT BANKING SECTOR INTO STRUCTURAL DEFICIT OF LIQUIDITY - RTRS

    That's an interesting way to say Bankrupt.
    Insurance on Russian debt non-payment assumes 56% chance of bond default, according to bloomberg,

    These f8ckers are turning into Argentina overnight.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,796
    moonshine said:

    What do you suppose a US Blackhawk helicopter is doing tracking along the Polish border near Lviv?

    moonshining clearly.
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    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,303
    As for the couple of you bashing green policies and even in misty-eyed's case, blaming Putin's invasion on Greta (wtf?) you really need to pull yourselves together.

    Recent world events have taught me and many of us that there's a need to cherish this planet on which we live not go even further into raping it.

    Fracking is a disgusting rape of the earth and has no place in the British Isles.

    We need to extend our renewable energy infrastructure. There are exciting developments on solar energy for example. We are close to the point where all homes will have a solar panel film applied to their windows, and then when all windows will simply have them inbuilt (like a car's heated rear window).

    In the longer term we have to build more nuclear power stations, which is the most naturally occurring form of energy in the universe. We are getting close to the holy grail of fusion reactors too.

    For some of us, perhaps many of us, we wish to go further and adapt. Homes need to learn to go off-grid as much as possible. Working from home should replace commuting as much as possible. Car use should be the exception rather than the rule if you can. I went down this route two years ago during lockdown and my life immeasurably improved. I am far happier than I ever was in a carbon-dependant life.

    That final paragraph is, I accept, more avant garde and should not detract from the previous ones which should and can all do.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,095
    Su-34 over Kharkiv. A bad sign about the trajectory of the war, suggests the Russian military has begun to use tactical aviation for bombing. Previously we only saw support from Su-25 attack aircraft. https://twitter.com/200_zoka/status/1498219630137118720
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    Chameleon said:

    https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1498316705591963654

    This thread is worth following - each tweet is separate russian column/unit that has been destroyed.

    Yet more supply and engineering columns blown off the face of the earth.

    I was wondering what the numbers were. Thanks!

    Is the Putin Wehrmacht sufficiently degraded now that Finland can take back its old land?
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    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Not generally a big fan of Nicola Sturgeon but good to see her debunking the rubbish about Liz Truss.

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1498308697516298240

    "Whatever political disagreements any of us have with Liz Truss - and I have many deep differences with her - we should not fall for this transparent Russian attempt to divert. The only person responsible for Putin’s despicable nuclear threat is Putin."

    No, that is dim of Nicola.

    You meet a lunatic with an axe who wants to murder his wife. He asks about her whereabouts. You truthfully tell him. The person responsible for the ensuing despicable axe murder is the husband, but you don't come out looking great either.

    This let's all get behind the Trussster nonsense is inexplicable. Never seen anyone so far out of their depth.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,062
    DougSeal said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    DougSeal said:

    Mulling over a comment from @malcolmg on the last thread. Why does he think I’m a Tory? Is this a common misapprehension?

    Fallacy of the undistributed middle:

    I have never kissed a tory

    I have never kissed you

    Therefore you are a tory

    Unless the two of you did have a teenage snog, in which case ignore.
    It’s Malc’s deep dark secret but have fond memories of our sensitive crimes in the turnip field.
    @IshmaelZ @DougSeal

    LOL, my tanktopped stalker is a fantasist, Go on Betty get a life.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,965
    Scott_xP said:

    Woefully inadequate

    100,000 Ukranains fleeing Russian invasion to be offered sanctuary in the UK @pritipatel announces.
    https://twitter.com/Torcuil/status/1498317167237992454

    100k is lots of people. Most will want to stay closer to home in more culturally similar slavic nations such as Poland & Czech republic, probably not Serbia mind.....
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,879
    rcs1000 said:

    MISTY said:

    dixiedean said:

    FPT. By @BartholomewRoberts

    I agree with you entirely but Russia's Useful Green Idiots have been opposing the bit in bold.

    @Richard_Tyndall is 100% right we need hydrocarbons to get us through the transition to clean energy and we should be developing our own instead of importing it from Putin and Sheiks.

    The loony elements of the Green movement oppose any and all exploration and extraction of domestic hydrocarbons. That does play into the hands of the likes of Putin who simply ignore those loons and do as they please.

    Dixiedean:

    One may say the same about those who have fought tooth and nail to prevent anything to restrict the demand side.
    We hear surprisingly little about that from the other side.
    It's going to take both to get anywhere near.

    Somebody made a good point, it isn't just green policy that's preventing fracking in the UK, its nimby-ism. Just as everybody supports other people paying higher taxes, so everybody supports cheaper gas drawn from fields near others.

    To make it work, the government needs incentives for people to agree for their areas to be fracked.
    While I agree with this in principle, the problem is that it is by no means clear that on-shore shale (i.e fracking) is economic in the UK.

    If you look at the various shale gas regions in the US - the Marcellus, Fayetville, Antrim, Haynesvlle, etc. - you find that a couple are being developed at pace, and a couple of basically been abandoned. Why? Because if it costs $3 to get gas out the ground in the Marcellus and $12 in the Antrim, then that Antrim shale is not economic. If the gas price is $7, then the Marcellus operators are making out like banditos, while the Antrim ones simply aren't drilling.

    There are good reasons to think that on-shore shale in the UK is going to be significantly more expensive to develop than in the US. Firstly, we're simply a lot more populated. Most US shale gas is in regions with big ranches and not a lot of people. Land is cheap. Disruption is small. Secondly, the US has a large number of drilling rigs. There are plenty of oil/gas drilling workers and day rates are low. Thirdly, we simply don't know enough about the geology to know whether the Bowland shale is like the Marcellus (or better), or like the Antrim (or worse). And the willingness of oil and gas companies to take both significant geological and pricing risk in the UK is not high.

    I would suggest that there are a couple of things - above and beyond removing the ban on fracking that can be done. The most important of these would be tax incentives to gas generators to enter into long term supply contracts with UK shale gas operators would be the most important. This would remove the price risk for an IGas or other UK shale gas player. It would also enable the UK to (relatively) quickly get a handle on what the right price of Bowland shale gas is likely to be. (And it's not a million miles different to what the German government did with solar.)
    In any case, the UK fracking is a non starter more generally - I read a geologist's assessment that the strata were too folded, intruded and cooked thermally in the past, certainly by comparison with the great North American sedimentary basins.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,100

    HYUFD said:

    MaxPB said:

    The government, to my great surprise, has done very well on the Ukraine crisis so far, yet the refugee stance risks undoing a lot of that good work. These people are in need of a safe nation to reside in temporarily and we should enable them to come here. Ukrainians are very patriotic people and once Ukraine has been made safe to return I doubt many will decide not to go back and those who don't we should be happy for them to stay.

    Priti Patel has once again showed why she's unsuitable for the leadership.

    Yet it is Liz Truss who the Russians have blamed for putting their nuclear arsenal on alert.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60558048

    Yes we can take some refugees but the public are quite clear we cannot take hundreds of thousands of them
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1497568020738289672?s=20&t=gr4sKFKuZXcOFLeS1MloOg
    Again right wing ante immigration attitude nuanced in your posts

    Of course numbers need to be considered, but right now most want to stay in the area around Ukraine but your attitude damages public sentiment that we should not put barriers in the way of Ukrainians seeking asylum here
    Just 9% of British voters want to take in hundreds of thousands of Ukranian refugees on that poll.

    Yes we can take in a few but we cannot take all
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1497568020738289672?s=20&t=iNWnFDJP8iiVnvl_CMZy-Q
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,520
    malcolmg said:

    DougSeal said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    DougSeal said:

    Mulling over a comment from @malcolmg on the last thread. Why does he think I’m a Tory? Is this a common misapprehension?

    Fallacy of the undistributed middle:

    I have never kissed a tory

    I have never kissed you

    Therefore you are a tory

    Unless the two of you did have a teenage snog, in which case ignore.
    It’s Malc’s deep dark secret but have fond memories of our sensitive crimes in the turnip field.
    @IshmaelZ @DougSeal

    LOL, my tanktopped stalker is a fantasist, Go on Betty get a life.
    Get a room
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,282
    ...

    malcolmg said:

    DougSeal said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    DougSeal said:

    Mulling over a comment from @malcolmg on the last thread. Why does he think I’m a Tory? Is this a common misapprehension?

    Fallacy of the undistributed middle:

    I have never kissed a tory

    I have never kissed you

    Therefore you are a tory

    Unless the two of you did have a teenage snog, in which case ignore.
    It’s Malc’s deep dark secret but have fond memories of our sensitive crimes in the turnip field.
    @IshmaelZ @DougSeal

    LOL, my tanktopped stalker is a fantasist, Go on Betty get a life.
    Get a room
    Huh? Get a turnip field.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,520
    Scott_xP said:

    Su-34 over Kharkiv. A bad sign about the trajectory of the war, suggests the Russian military has begun to use tactical aviation for bombing. Previously we only saw support from Su-25 attack aircraft. https://twitter.com/200_zoka/status/1498219630137118720

    Suggesting that their SU-25s are having problems. Like being shot down?
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    Patel rejects full visa waiver for Ukrainians saying there are security concerns about extremists entering UK as well as Russians who may try to pose as Ukrainian

    Says her approach is "based on the strongest security advice"


    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1498319570985275402
This discussion has been closed.