williamglenn said:

@AliBunkallSKY
UKRAINE: fear amongst western officials now is that Russia will start bombing Ukrainians indiscriminately and even with thermobaric weapons, if their progress continues to be impeded.

https://twitter.com/AliBunkallSKY/status/1497265699324055552

Yes, as I said earlier on here the Ukrainians are putting up a huge and valiant resistance. Putin will eventually reach for WMDs and near WMDs if he can't see a way out that doesn't involve a hugely embarrassing retreat into Donbass and Belarus.

ydoethur said:

pigeon said:

ydoethur said:

dixiedean said:

Andy_JS said:

Theuniondivvie said:

How will this go down?

Ben Judah
@b_judah
Zemmour: "We must absolutely reassure the Russians on Ukraine which, for them, is a Russian country."

That's the end of his hopes of getting into the second round.

And perhaps the first round hopefully.

By his logic, Gascony and Normandy belong to the UK, Provence to Italy, Alsace to Germany and Dijon to the Netherlands.

Gascony and Normandy? That's not very ambitious. I'd be going for a full restoration of the Angevin Empire myself.

We wouldn't want Maine and Anjou. But Gascony's lovely and Normandy has much in common with the south of England.

Personally you can keep the rest but I'd want Bordeaux back.

Siri, show me a Covid grifter who has built a new career out of alarmism and is damned if he’s going to let this new opportunity go to waste

Evening all

I don't quite share @PJohnson's nonsensical worldview but the fact is stocks have rallied strongly after yesterday's panic so the question is what has changed?

Reading various commentaries some suggest it may be the oil price hasn't climbed as quickly as many feared -maybe. Others suggest the sanctions regime put forward by the West isn't that strong - a lot of it is rhetoric - and therefore it's basically business as usual.

I did wonder why Gazprom or Rosneft weren't in the list of sanctioned companies - the cynic in me wonders whether somebody has been urging European Governments not to be too harsh on Russia (perhaps they have offered to "rein in" Putin to some degree).

So, where are we? Will Ukraine be partitioned down the Dniepro River with Kiev and everything to the east in the hands of a new pro-Russian Ukrainian state or will we see the whole country occupied? I suspect not though I'm so often wrong about most things I wonder why I bother.

I'm too young to remember Hungary 1956 - the tweets of Zelensky and the defiance of Klitschko remind me of some of the radio calls from Budapest and Sopron as the Russian tanks rolled in.

Let's hope our response to the humanitarian crisis will be powerful in its way.

DougSeal said:

MoonRabbit said:

Malmesbury said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

tlg86 said:

Seize Chelsea and then close them down.

I support this measure.

UEFA are bellends though.

How am I supposed to get a hotel ticket for the CL final in Paris to see Liverpool win Number 7 when the French Open is taking place at the same time.

Also, UEFA are still letting Russia/Russian teams play. Go full South Africa on them.

That would require UEFA to have scruples.....hears the Champions League theme tune in my head, this programme is bought to you in association with Gazprom...

Revive the Statute of Edward IV of 1477 banning football and mandating archery in it place.

Update it to Davy Crockett recoils rifles and we are good to go...

In 1608 - ""With the ffotebale...[there] hath beene greate disorder in our towne of Manchester we are told, and glasse windowes broken yearlye and spoyled by a companie of lewd and disordered persons ..."

And in 1608 they weren’t even snorting coke or setting off flares in their arse hole.

You’d be surprised…

I thought that’s what Guy Fawkes and co were up to in the parliament vaults and understandably nobody believed them.

Foolishly, I just played the Arnold Rimmer song.

Is there a more pernicious earworm?

HYUFD said:

darkage said:

NickPalmer said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

StuartDickson said:

LDLF said:

I'm not a football expert but judging by general football fan reactions, closing down Chelsea is probably an automatic vote-winner at any time, war or no war.

The number one thing that would damage Russia is if the West (that includes us, but particularly the EU as well) stops buying from them. This is difficult to do as so many raw materials come from there.

En passant: by Vlad's logic, if he takes Kiev will he be giving Saint Petersburg back to Sweden?

Why stop at Greater Finland? We want Bornholm back. And Trøndelag. And while we’re at it give us back Bremen-Verden, Pomerania and Wismar too. Thieving bastards.

Come to think of it, it was us who invented Kievan Russia…

Seriously, wouldn't the addition of Finland to NATO strengthen it massively?

It has a huge land border with Russia. NATO could conduct 'exercises' along it all year round and the Russians would be obliged to post large numbers of troops on their side 'just in case'.

I do believe attitudes towards NATO have changed markedly in Finland of late. The Finns of course have every reason to be hostile and suspicious towards the Russians.

42-28 were against joining in January and the PM ruled it out, according to this:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/finlands-pm-says-nato-membership-is-very-unlikely-her-watch-2022-01-19/

Recent events may have shifted attitudes, though. A Feb poll by the Farmers' Union suggests 45-33 in favour:

https://yle.fi/news/3-12305027#:~:text=A fresh poll commissioned and published by the,that membership were recommended by the nation's leaders

I've never heard of Russia showing any real interest in Finland since WW2, though others may know otherwise. As neighbourly relations go, everyone seemed to move on after Russia had attacked Finland and Finland had then allied with Germany to attack Russia - you'd think it would have left lasting bad feeling, but it apprently didn't, perhaps because Finland has been ostentiously neutral ever since (which is why the PM is still reluctant). Active dislike between Russia and the Baltic States is far more intense, and there it really is NATO membership which is likely to be a deterrent.

Putins speech earlier in the week was a paradigm shift, intentionally or otherwise. It was seen as a claim on Finland, as much as it was on Ukraine and other parts of Eastern Europe. If Russia no longer respects Finlands status and neutrality, then Finland has to get ready to fight Russia again. NATO membership is the logical conclusion, as Finlands 200,000 (ish?) strong standing army could be otherwise be overrun, although Russia would perhaps find it difficult to govern after the invasion.

Putin's statement today suggests Russia would invade any non NATO member in Europe which applied for NATO membership, even Finland and Sweden.

Unfortunately for both it looks like that ship has sailed and they will have to heavily spend more on their own defence

The Russian army is struggling against an inferior opponent that's largely reliant on short range anti-tank weapons, light machine guns and reservists armed with AK-47s and petrol bombs. Somehow I doubt that Russia is in any position to attempt an amphibious assault on Stockholm right now.

The ideal moment for the Nordic neutrals to pick a side is whilst Putin hasn't the forces available, let alone in theatre, to retaliate against them.

Fucking Putin.

Thanks to him I'm now supposed to be working this weekend and I have tickets for the Carabao Cup final as well.

If I miss it because of him I will be furious.

Sad news for PBers, this means my AV/Scottish independence thread won't be published this weekend. It would have been the greatest crossover event since Avengers: Endgame.

Gardenwalker said:

Andy_JS said:

"Володимир Зеленський
@ZelenskyyUa

Today at 10:30 am at the entrances to Chernihiv, Hostomel and Melitopol there were heavy fighting. People died. Next time I'll try to move the war schedule to talk to #MarioDraghi at a specific time. Meanwhile, Ukraine continues to fight for its people.
11:36 AM · Feb 25, 2022"

https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1497173609957236738

Can we get Zelenskiy a safe seat and make him PM?

Surely he's got to leave Kiev? I mean the Russian forces are barely miles away, no?

FrankBooth said:

Gardenwalker said:

Andy_JS said:

"Володимир Зеленський
@ZelenskyyUa

Today at 10:30 am at the entrances to Chernihiv, Hostomel and Melitopol there were heavy fighting. People died. Next time I'll try to move the war schedule to talk to #MarioDraghi at a specific time. Meanwhile, Ukraine continues to fight for its people.
11:36 AM · Feb 25, 2022"

https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1497173609957236738

Can we get Zelenskiy a safe seat and make him PM?

Surely he's got to leave Kiev? I mean the Russian forces are barely miles away, no?

He was a comedian playing the President of Ukraine not so long ago.

What strange times we live in.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Fucking Putin.

Thanks to him I'm now supposed to be working this weekend and I have tickets for the Carabao Cup final as well.

If I miss it because of him I will be furious.

Sad news for PBers, this means my AV/Scotland thread won't be published this weekend. It would have been the greatest crossover event since Avengers: Endgame.

Silver linings: if we do all end up being consumed by a Russian thermonuclear fireball next week then at least the final few days of our lives will have been refreshingly free of another boring mud slinging contest over Scotland.

Well now, poor Roman Abramovich is going to soon fall out of a window isn't he?

A daughter of the Russian tycoon Roman Abramovich has added her voice to growing condemnation of President Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.

Sofia Abramovich posted an image on Instagram showing the phrase “Russia wants a war with Ukraine” with the word Russia crossed out and replaced with “Putin”.

A second sentence read: “The biggest and most successful lie of Kremlin’s propaganda is that most Russians stand with Putin.” It was followed by an image of Putin with a red line across him.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/roman-abramovich-s-daughter-condemns-putin-s-invasion-of-ukraine-csm3b8pnx

TheScreamingEagles said:

Well now, poor Roman Abramovich is going to soon fall out of a window soon isn't he?

A daughter of the Russian tycoon Roman Abramovich has added her voice to growing condemnation of President Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.

Sofia Abramovich posted an image on Instagram showing the phrase “Russia wants a war with Ukraine” with the word Russia crossed out and replaced with “Putin”.

A second sentence read: “The biggest and most successful lie of Kremlin’s propaganda is that most Russians stand with Putin.” It was followed by an image of Putin with a red line across him.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/roman-abramovich-s-daughter-condemns-putin-s-invasion-of-ukraine-csm3b8pnx

He’s safe until summer - transfer window is closed.

FrankBooth said:

Gardenwalker said:

Andy_JS said:

"Володимир Зеленський
@ZelenskyyUa

Today at 10:30 am at the entrances to Chernihiv, Hostomel and Melitopol there were heavy fighting. People died. Next time I'll try to move the war schedule to talk to #MarioDraghi at a specific time. Meanwhile, Ukraine continues to fight for its people.
11:36 AM · Feb 25, 2022"

https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1497173609957236738

Can we get Zelenskiy a safe seat and make him PM?

Surely he's got to leave Kiev? I mean the Russian forces are barely miles away, no?

He's a brave guy indeed. I only wish I could be sure I'd be as brave in his situation.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Well now, poor Roman Abramovich is going to soon fall out of a window soon isn't he?

A daughter of the Russian tycoon Roman Abramovich has added her voice to growing condemnation of President Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.

Sofia Abramovich posted an image on Instagram showing the phrase “Russia wants a war with Ukraine” with the word Russia crossed out and replaced with “Putin”.

A second sentence read: “The biggest and most successful lie of Kremlin’s propaganda is that most Russians stand with Putin.” It was followed by an image of Putin with a red line across him.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/roman-abramovich-s-daughter-condemns-putin-s-invasion-of-ukraine-csm3b8pnx

Good for her, Brave young lady.

Lets all pray its the start of a trend,

StuartDickson said:

Gardenwalker said:

geoffw said:

NickPalmer said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

StuartDickson said:

LDLF said:

I'm not a football expert but judging by general football fan reactions, closing down Chelsea is probably an automatic vote-winner at any time, war or no war.

The number one thing that would damage Russia is if the West (that includes us, but particularly the EU as well) stops buying from them. This is difficult to do as so many raw materials come from there.

En passant: by Vlad's logic, if he takes Kiev will he be giving Saint Petersburg back to Sweden?

Why stop at Greater Finland? We want Bornholm back. And Trøndelag. And while we’re at it give us back Bremen-Verden, Pomerania and Wismar too. Thieving bastards.

Come to think of it, it was us who invented Kievan Russia…

Seriously, wouldn't the addition of Finland to NATO strengthen it massively?

It has a huge land border with Russia. NATO could conduct 'exercises' along it all year round and the Russians would be obliged to post large numbers of troops on their side 'just in case'.

I do believe attitudes towards NATO have changed markedly in Finland of late. The Finns of course have every reason to be hostile and suspicious towards the Russians.

42-28 were against joining in January and the PM ruled it out, according to this:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/finlands-pm-says-nato-membership-is-very-unlikely-her-watch-2022-01-19/

Recent events may have shifted attitudes, though. A Feb poll by the Farmers' Union suggests 45-33 in favour:

https://yle.fi/news/3-12305027#:~:text=A fresh poll commissioned and published by the,that membership were recommended by the nation's leaders

I've never heard of Russia showing any real interest in Finland since WW2, though others may know otherwise. As neighbourly relations go, everyone seemed to move on after Russia had attacked Finland and Finland had then allied with Germany to attack Russia - you'd think it would have left lasting bad feeling, but it apprently didn't, perhaps because Finland has been ostentiously neutral ever since (which is why the PM is still reluctant). Active dislike between Russia and the Baltic States is far more intense, and there it really is NATO membership which is likely to be a deterrent.

"you'd think it would have left lasting bad feeling, but it apprently didn't"
My deep connections to Finland of some 60 years tell me you couldn't be more wrong, and not just from those who were displaced from Karelia.

Theuniondivvie said:

How will this go down?

Ben Judah
@b_judah
Zemmour: "We must absolutely reassure the Russians on Ukraine which, for them, is a Russian country."

Dunno. Maybe the Spectator will stop giving him glowing editorials.

Saw that mendacious shit Fraser Nelson on Swedish tv last week, spouting blatant lies. The audience just lapped it up. Anglophilia can be a crippling condition. One has a duty to pose probing questions.

He is a bellend of bellends that one.

Benpointer said:

FrankBooth said:

Gardenwalker said:

Andy_JS said:

"Володимир Зеленський
@ZelenskyyUa

Today at 10:30 am at the entrances to Chernihiv, Hostomel and Melitopol there were heavy fighting. People died. Next time I'll try to move the war schedule to talk to #MarioDraghi at a specific time. Meanwhile, Ukraine continues to fight for its people.
11:36 AM · Feb 25, 2022"

https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1497173609957236738

Can we get Zelenskiy a safe seat and make him PM?

Surely he's got to leave Kiev? I mean the Russian forces are barely miles away, no?

He's a brave guy indeed. I only wish I could be sure I'd be as brave in his situation.

Remarkable as he is it won't do his country any good if he's killed or captured.

IshmaelZ said:

kle4 said:

Pro_Rata said:

What should we do?

What strikes me is what we are asking of the Ukrainian, to fight alone in a war of survival, but with extra weaponry. In essence, we are asking them to make the war more brutal, more attritional, more bloody to deter Russia. Some of what we provide might help shield the civilians in cities, but on average the emphasis of our defence help is not immediately humanitarian in nature.
.

Immediately, perhaps not, but in the longer term it is. Otherwise anyone attacked would be advised on humanitarian grounds to simply surrender.

Pro_Rata said:

What should we do?

What strikes me is what we are asking of the Ukrainian, to fight alone in a war of survival, but with extra weaponry. In essence, we are asking them to make the war more brutal, more attritional, more bloody to deter Russia. Some of what we provide might help shield the civilians in cities, but on average the emphasis of our defence help is not immediately humanitarian in nature.

Whatever the rights, wrongs and realpolitic of the eastern expansion of NATO over the last 3 decades - too far, correct or not far enough, that, bluntly, is our ask, as allies, of the Ukrainian people.

So, when I turn to sanctions, narrow based sanctions on the Russian elites don't cut it. Our ask of our ordinary Ukranian friends is way more of our ask on ordinary Russians living on the other side of this war. Hit the elites hard, yes, definitely, but we should not shy from impact on ordinary Russians, nor indeed of some impact on ourselves.

You fight wars to win them, and the brutality and attrition flow from that.

Personally I am cheering on Ukraine for its own sake, not as an ally (is it even an ally?) and I am very, very unhappy indeed with the irrational proposition that sanctions should be perversely tuned to hit ordinary Russians to compensate for the wholly imaginary demands we are apparently making (I'm not) of ordinary Ukrainians. Where's the sense or justice in that? Do you think anyone engaged in the high level planning of this war on the Russian side is not a billionaire? Or that it's the fault of the peasantry for voting for Putin in free and fair elections?

Craven capitulation and exactly the line that Putin would want you to take.

Why not just go the whole hog and oppose all sanctions on the basis that if they are effective enough to make Russia sit up and think they will also hurt the economic interests of UK companies and by implication innocent UK citizens on the other side of the trading arrangement?

IshmaelZ said:

Also

Russian tennis player Andrey Rublev, world number 7, wrote "No war please" on a camera lens during a tournament in Dubai

https://twitter.com/0419R7264968959/status/1497268382571417609

you don't do that if you expect Putin to be around much longer

He can get away with that one back home as not explicitly critical of Putin. Putin's official position/lie is of course he did not want war either but has been forced into it.

Aslan said:

williamglenn said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Well now, poor Roman Abramovich is going to soon fall out of a window soon isn't he?

A daughter of the Russian tycoon Roman Abramovich has added her voice to growing condemnation of President Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.

Sofia Abramovich posted an image on Instagram showing the phrase “Russia wants a war with Ukraine” with the word Russia crossed out and replaced with “Putin”.

A second sentence read: “The biggest and most successful lie of Kremlin’s propaganda is that most Russians stand with Putin.” It was followed by an image of Putin with a red line across him.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/roman-abramovich-s-daughter-condemns-putin-s-invasion-of-ukraine-csm3b8pnx

There's got to be a good chance that this erosion of support will accelerate.

The Russian elite need to know they will be sent into poverty by sanctions and the Russian middle class need to know their sons will endlessly die on Ukrainian soil. All for crazed Putin's reckless war against Slavic brothers.

I agree except it’s not the sons of the Russian middle class who will die - it’s the sons of the poor.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Chris Bryant is a legend, totally agree with him, seize Everton and Chelsea and close them down.

Roman Abramovich and Alisher Usmanov have been told to condemn Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine if they want to avoid repeated calls for sanctions in parliament.

Chris Bryant, the Labour MP who declared in the Commons on Thursday that Abramovich is unfit to own Chelsea, has also implored on fans and players to join protests.

The Chelsea owner and influential Everton investor should already be among those to have assets frozen in retaliation for the outbreak of war in Europe, he told Telegraph Sport.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/02/25/roman-abramovich-alisher-usmanov-told-condemn-vladimir-putin/

Chris Bryant is a fool, he was banging on about dual citizens yesterday. As if ordinary Russians have got a choice in this. A very good friend of mine is a UK/Russian dual national, she's not some oligarch or billionaire, she works for the NHS and was offended by the idea that because she's a dual national she's complicit in what Putin is doing.

TheScreamingEagles said:

JohnLilburne said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Chris Bryant is a legend, totally agree with him, seize Everton and Chelsea and close them down.

Roman Abramovich and Alisher Usmanov have been told to condemn Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine if they want to avoid repeated calls for sanctions in parliament.

Chris Bryant, the Labour MP who declared in the Commons on Thursday that Abramovich is unfit to own Chelsea, has also implored on fans and players to join protests.

The Chelsea owner and influential Everton investor should already be among those to have assets frozen in retaliation for the outbreak of war in Europe, he told Telegraph Sport.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/02/25/roman-abramovich-alisher-usmanov-told-condemn-vladimir-putin/

Fans should take Ukrainian colours to the matches on Saturday, sing Slava Ukrayini.

I'm tempted to wear the Ukrainian shirt on Sunday, if I can find one.

Liverpool need to play in their yellow strip on Sunday so when they have the line up on tv it will be a big wall of yellow and blue for the cameras - Liverpool fans should also all wear yellow so the crowd pictures also are a sea of yellow and blue.

IshmaelZ said:

pigeon said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Fucking Putin.

Thanks to him I'm now supposed to be working this weekend and I have tickets for the Carabao Cup final as well.

If I miss it because of him I will be furious.

Sad news for PBers, this means my AV/Scotland thread won't be published this weekend. It would have been the greatest crossover event since Avengers: Endgame.

Silver linings: if we do all end up being consumed by a Russian thermonuclear fireball next week then at least the final few days of our lives will have been refreshingly free of another boring mud slinging contest over Scotland.

Are you new here? You think the number of airbursts over Faslane vs Devonport will pass unnoticed and undisputed?

Obviously posting from a lunatic asylum and not had their medication

Gardenwalker said:

Someone has spray-painted, “No To War” on the front of the Duma.

That takes Balls! good for them, and hopefully in a week at the wounds biggest party, also known as Putin's funeral, we can give them a medal.

IshmaelZ said:

Fuck off you wanker.

BlancheLivermore said:

JosiasJessop said:

The little 'un just said:

"Instead of 'Vladimir Putin, why don't we call him 'Bladder-seer PooPoo" ?

I approve of this change....

That makes me think that Shitcan might be a good name for him.

That's Vlad, not your son!

Puking.

Germany please note how it's done..

Mariusz Blaszczak
@mblaszczak
The convoy with the ammunition that we are handing over to Ukraine has already reached our neighbors. We support the Ukrainians, we stand in solidarity and we firmly oppose Russian aggression.

https://twitter.com/mblaszczak/status/1497258005955547143

Do we know if there are street protests again in Mosco or other Russian city's again tonight? or were to many arrested last night?

Fairliered said:

Farooq said:

eek said:

PJohnson said:

interesting view that this war has been cooked up on wall street and in the city of london

https://twitter.com/VigilantFox/status/1497031347042459648?s=20&t=aQZwT7pvXsbvIXuYZEIJjQ

Some people are utterly deluded yet 35,000+ follow him...

While everything Mr Meeks said this morning is obvious, it's worth repeating how much damage social media does to those who use it as their sole source of news.

35,000 accounts
That's not the same as 35,000 people

Half of them could be Leon.

Only half? What's the other nine-tenths of him doing?

JosiasJessop said:

rcs1000 said:

another_richard said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

EPG said:

DavidL said:

EPG said:

williamglenn said:

The head of the German Intelligence Agency had to be evacuated from Ukraine. Apparently he didn't believe an invasion would happen...

https://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-krise/praesident-des-bundesnachrichtendienstes-wurde-aus-hoechster-not-aus-der-ukraine-gerettet_id_59192174.html

I would see the presence of German intelligence in Kiev as good news for Ukraine, all in all. It suggests some kind of assistance.

Why does the phrase with friends like these come to mind?

Because the British right-wing is scratching its anti-German itch this week? Germany cancelled Nord Stream 2 while the UK won't cancel Hilary Term at Eton. Course, the UK sent more material assistance to Ukraine, but instead of agreeing to unite some people want to pretend to be better in every way.

No you fuckwit we just recognise when some Governments are acting as barriers to a unified approach. Just like Germany is right now.

And Germany only agreed to suspend Nord Stream 2 because they had already been told by the Americans that if they didn't the US would find a more permanent way of shutting it down.

Given that its the end of winter how much would Germany use NS2 even if it was approved ?

Vlad's chosen an odd time to invade: winds are strong across Europe and gas storage is near highs, just as domestic heating requirements are starting to drop.

This is a great chart showing current German electricity production by type: https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/power/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&stacking=stacked_absolute_area

The Germans are only using 3GW of natural gas right now.

Back in the middle of winter, it might have 20GW.

The Russians chose a very odd time to invade.

I reckon the Chinese asked them to avoid the Olympics. Would partially explain the Chinese words after the invasion.

Kazakhstani rebellion delayed the deployment by about a month.

BigRich said:

Do we know if there are street protests again in Mosco or other Russian city's again tonight? or were to many arrested last night?

Sky News showed some pictures from a St. Petersburg protest earlier, which I think was live.

boulay said:

Wulfrun_Phil said:

IshmaelZ said:

Fuck off you wanker.

I don’t think that is what “ Romanes eunt domo” means but close enough to what Ishmael wrote.

People called Wankerus they go the 'ouse

Channel 4 News interviewing a female Ukrainian MP who's planning to use a Kalashnikov for the first time.

JohnLilburne said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Chris Bryant is a legend, totally agree with him, seize Everton and Chelsea and close them down.

Roman Abramovich and Alisher Usmanov have been told to condemn Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine if they want to avoid repeated calls for sanctions in parliament.

Chris Bryant, the Labour MP who declared in the Commons on Thursday that Abramovich is unfit to own Chelsea, has also implored on fans and players to join protests.

The Chelsea owner and influential Everton investor should already be among those to have assets frozen in retaliation for the outbreak of war in Europe, he told Telegraph Sport.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/02/25/roman-abramovich-alisher-usmanov-told-condemn-vladimir-putin/

Fans should take Ukrainian colours to the matches on Saturday, sing Slava Ukrayini.

Well Slava Ukraini (Glory to Ukraine) is a salute, to which the the response is simply Heroiam slava (to the heros, glory). On the other hand the Ukrainian anthem is the kind of inspirational that makes the hairs on the back of your neck rise up..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzgViS4Rpf8&ab_channel=BlueMarbleNations

NEW THREAD

I was really hoping the UK wouldn't come last this year, and it was pretty much guaranteed but then I heard this news:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-60530513

I'm feeling that I want to do something that will make a difference, to ensure that we're not in even more danger in five years time, but I'm not sure what.

All the political discussion around the UK response seems to be centred on gradations of sanctions and Russian money. I can't find that any UK politician is talking about rearmament, so there is no-one to support in that. Is there a re-armament league, or similar pressure group? Writing a letter to my SNP MP seems pretty pointless.

Apparently I'm not quite too old for the Army Reserve, but I think my wife might divorce me if I applied for that, perhaps because she thinks it's obvious Russia will only be stopped by fighting.

I'm feeling really quite threatened, and want to do something useful about it.

FrankBooth said:

Just seeing a former US Ambassador being surprisingly chipper about things. Putin's got enough forces to take Kiev and maybe one other city but that's about it. The question is what then? He has next to no hope of installing a puppet government that can hold power. So what will it be? The one thing he always has is enormous air power to blow the place to smithereens.

The thing is that like Trump, Putin is a bad loser. That's what worries me.

If he orders carpet bombing on civilians, maybe that'll be the point when someone steps in.

kle4 said:

pigeon said:

MoonRabbit said:

Pro_Rata said:

What should we do?

What strikes me is what we are asking of the Ukrainian, to fight alone in a war of survival, but with extra weaponry. In essence, we are asking them to make the war more brutal, more attritional, more bloody to deter Russia. Some of what we provide might help shield the civilians in cities, but on average the emphasis of our defence help is not immediately humanitarian in nature.

Whatever the rights, wrongs and realpolitic of the eastern expansion of NATO over the last 3 decades - too far, correct or not far enough, that, bluntly, is our ask, as allies, of the Ukrainian people.

So, when I turn to sanctions, narrow based sanctions on the Russian elites don't cut it. Our ask of our ordinary Ukranian friends is way more of our ask on ordinary Russians living on the other side of this war. Hit the elites hard, yes, definitely, but we should not shy from impact on ordinary Russians, nor indeed of some impact on ourselves.

There’s a lot of posts on here urging and willing the Ukrainians to fight on, and trying to paint it as a fight they are doing well in, which I think disguises this is, in truth and fact leading to something just as horrible and difficult to except as the end of the Prague Spring with that invasion.

Someone posted here other day, after Russia went into Czechoslovakia, over next ten years they pilfered it.

At the crunch the Western world did not stand shoulder to shoulder with Ukraine this time. The dream of poor Ukrainians being in EU and getting wealthier and having nice things like western everyday people is over now, for time being, more days of terror and war in their country (not ours) won’t change that at all. In fact brilliant people like Zelenskiy and Klitchko and others we don’t even know their name might die.

I don’t feel as gung ho as PB today. It suddenly seems pointless to me. Is this anti Russian bloodlust just trying to hide the guilt? Carry on calling me a traitor and surrender monkey if you want, I would rather wake up tomorrow to a ceasefire and Zelenskiy in Minsk talking with Putin, than wake up to find it still going on.

The Ukrainians, or a great many of them anyway, may simply have decided that they prefer to gamble on a military solution and potentially die fighting than to suffer the slow garrotting that comes from being turned into another Belarus, and who are we to say that they're wrong?

Indeed. I don't know how this mess can be made better, but I'm not really inclined to over analyse people expressing hopes that the Ukrainians manage to undetake a spirited defence of their country.

The world and this situation remains a complex one, but is it being gung ho to find some hope at the sight, however brief it may be, of people fighting back against an aggressor? Is it not the height of navel gazing to analyse that as some deep message of seemingly sinister character, rather than just instinctive sympathy for an underdog?

One things not complex. Obviously Russia is the aggressor here. Or just the twisted Putin regime (though people do think differently in sticks than cities). And if it was this country, I would take a machine gun and fight, at least until PM called a ceasefire. So I am right behind the Ukrainians who choose to do the same. I suspect most will.

But should leadership lead their people that far into the meat grinder? So when I said ceasefire and Zelenskiy talking, it was as a good leader not weak one I was thinking. Do you see what I mean? For how long should he let them get ground up? 😕

But We aren’t fighting Putin. Our country is not there with them, just trying to convince itself it is. That’s the bottom line I’m trying to say. We are armchair generals miles away urging others to fight and die against Putin for our relief? Relief from our anger and our guilt? Do you really get hope from watching them die today, whilst you are far away in an armchair, and if Sunday’s ceasefire came Saturday, they could have gone home to their families?

I’m not getting any hope or satisfaction from this, knowing it ends in broken families and a nations loss of freedom. Knowing that most powerful countries in the world standing by watching it, leaving them feeling betrayed. I’m just feeling more and more sad. 😕

I should switch it off. But I feel guilty about turning my head away from this fight too.

Bad times.

PJohnson said:

the reason some right wingers support Putin by the way is they see him as potentially defending Christian values against a woke decadent west...they may be wrong but thats their reasoning

Everyone of them is a total moron. There is nothing Christian about murdering your neighbours.