What should the West do? the UK view of a range of suggestions – YouGov – politicalbetting.com

CarlottaVance said:

Tough old day. I got arrested by the Ukrainian army for filming them: "Are you a Russian spy?" No etc. They were nicer than Putin. I got a cup of tea. Spent time at Ukraine Int HQ as they checked me out. Never mind. #Putin's war is not going well.

Vladimir Putin is in trouble.

https://twitter.com/johnsweeneyroar/status/1497249498258620419

Interesting - he argues in the video that Putin is staying his hand in Kyiv because the optics of levelling the city would play very badly at home.

Well, it would. Kyiv may be in Ukraine, but it's still one of the great cultural and historic centres of Russia. Levelling it *would * look bad. Moreover, it's hard to justify invading to save a country if you end by destroying it.

kinabalu said:

BlancheLivermore said:

kinabalu said:

BlancheLivermore said:

kinabalu said:

BlancheLivermore said:

Was this a 'mistake'?

"Germany reportedly refused to allow Estonia to send its German-made weapons to Ukraine. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania pledged support to Kyiv against possible Russian aggression."
https://www.dw.com/en/germany-blocks-estonian-arms-exports-to-ukraine-report/a-60520988

What do you think? Do you think it's a malicious act by a cold and soulless nation?

I think it's a principled act by a cold and soulless administration with really shitty principles.

Your turn. What do you think of it?

As I put it on the PT really - I disagree with Germany's reticence in this matter but I don't feel right condemning them for it, or ascribing negative national characteristics to it. I think it largely comes from something that I find understandable and not malign.

Ukrainians are throwing glass bottles full of petrol at Russian tanks, but you understand why the Germans are too nobly principled to help the poor fuckers out?

I don't understand.

I don't applaud their current stance on this conflict but, yes, I think I do understand at least some of why Germany has wanted to build a profitable relationship with Russia and why they are predisposed to keep out of military conflict outside of their borders. What I understand less is somebody *not* having any appreciation of this.

But if you want to go full monty condemnation from here in the UK about a shameful, commerce-grubbing nation selling out Ukraine to appease and enable tyranny, if that's the analysis you like, the one that rings true to you, you go right ahead. It seems to be a popular take, both here and elsewhere. I'm just not keen on it and I prefer mine.

Fixed it for you.

And the commerce grubbing extends to other places as well.

Not least dear old Londontown.

Omnium said:

StuartDickson said:

HYUFD said:

"The old concepts of fighting big tank battles on European land mass are over," Boris rather naively told Tobias Ellwood last year.

Russia has the biggest number of tanks in the world and has just launched the first land invasion of an independent sovereign state in Europe since WW2.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1497139951552671744?s=20&t=M3ZRMfdjWd-gYHi9u8MyuQ

Boris, we need more tanks and we need to send them to Poland and the Baltic States

Shame all the Scottish Oil has run out. Or so you BritNats keep telling us.

You don't want to go too far down that road though do you. I thought you were against fracking?

(My view is that it's best to get to renewables as fast as possible, but I'd not object to fracking in the UK if it helped get Germany off the Russian hook)

He's fine with it - he's in Sweden.

Andy_JS said:

"Володимир Зеленський
@ZelenskyyUa

Today at 10:30 am at the entrances to Chernihiv, Hostomel and Melitopol there were heavy fighting. People died. Next time I'll try to move the war schedule to talk to #MarioDraghi at a specific time. Meanwhile, Ukraine continues to fight for its people.
11:36 AM · Feb 25, 2022"

https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1497173609957236738

Blimey, finding time for twitter burns? The media war at least going well.

Malmesbury said:

state_go_away said:

Serious question to Malmesbury - When do you plan to end the covid data? Its no great hassle to scroll over it (as you may have guessed I gave up on covid over a year ago) as I take no interest in it but just wondered if you have an end game plan!

Carry on until I have turned PB into an endless pile of monoliths......

My manifesto is expressed here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjogCytzX0s

"Don't you know there's a war on?"

MaxPB said:

StuartDickson said:

MaxPB said:

Stopping russian government bond sales in London and NY would be interesting. Investors want to buy them in London or NY because of legal protections and the ability of the courts to pass and enforce judgements against state actors. It could genuinely cripple the Russian state because no sensible investors would buy Russian government bonds sold under Russian or even EU law.

Why has it not happened? Too expensive for London and NY? Hmmm… Swift…

Germans = bad
London = good

I think it needs to be coordinated with the US and probably needs quite a lot of legal checking.

The City has been briefed that we're going to get caught up in this, probably quite significantly. It's just awaiting the package from the government now and agreeing a common stance with the US.

The City used as a weapon against Russia having profited so much from Russia - this has an irony which appeals. Watching that space with great interest.

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Malmesbury said:

state_go_away said:

Serious question to Malmesbury - When do you plan to end the covid data? Its no great hassle to scroll over it (as you may have guessed I gave up on covid over a year ago) as I take no interest in it but just wondered if you have an end game plan!

Carry on until I have turned PB into an endless pile of monoliths......

My manifesto is expressed here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjogCytzX0s

"Don't you know there's a war on?"

"For you, the day Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday."

I would give Putin some credit if he could deliver a line like that.

Andy_JS said:

"Володимир Зеленський
@ZelenskyyUa

Today at 10:30 am at the entrances to Chernihiv, Hostomel and Melitopol there were heavy fighting. People died. Next time I'll try to move the war schedule to talk to #MarioDraghi at a specific time. Meanwhile, Ukraine continues to fight for its people.
11:36 AM · Feb 25, 2022"

https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1497173609957236738

Can we get Zelenskiy a safe seat and make him PM?

rottenborough said:

Scott_xP said:

EXCLUSIVE: I have been given a copy of document issued today by Russian Ministry of Health. It indicates Russia is anticipating a massive medical emergency & has ordered health organisations to immediately identify medical staff ready to relocate & work. https://twitter.com/EJ_Burrows/status/1497252061678813187/photo/1

The document includes list including "paediatric surgeons".

So I'm not sure this is for doctors to go and help wounded RU soldiers?

if you can operate on kids, you can operate on adults?

Mexicanpete said:

LordWakefield said:

rottenborough said:

LordWakefield said:

Obviously the Ukrainian invasion wouldn't have happened with a strongman in the White House. A tyrant like Putin against Joe Biden well what a fuck up. For many on then Left that opposed Trump this is life coming at you fast.

Eh? Trump would have celebrated fellow 'strongman' genius and done absolutely nothing to block him.

He'd probably be trying to send weapons and ammo to Vlad to help him on his way.

So why didn't he make his move then? The same reason he took Crimea when he did the opportunity presented itself thanks to another weak man leader in the WH.

Well Putin had his own man in the WH between January 2017 and January 2021.

Lord Wakefield? Was the Lord HawHaw avatar already taken?

It would be entirely plausible that Putin was waiting to see if Trump was going to cripple NATO from the inside & do his work for him. Once Trump lost the election & the follow-up coup attempt it was on to the next plan, which turns out to be “invade Ukraine”.

TheWhiteRabbit said:

rottenborough said:

Scott_xP said:

EXCLUSIVE: I have been given a copy of document issued today by Russian Ministry of Health. It indicates Russia is anticipating a massive medical emergency & has ordered health organisations to immediately identify medical staff ready to relocate & work. https://twitter.com/EJ_Burrows/status/1497252061678813187/photo/1

The document includes list including "paediatric surgeons".

So I'm not sure this is for doctors to go and help wounded RU soldiers?

if you can operate on kids, you can operate on adults?

If your plan looks like this, maybe you expect lots of injured children?

Had a thought.

The generalised money grubbing attitude of Conservative politicians ** towards various oligarchs (not just Russian ones) has an echo in PB's own HYUFD's obsession with inheritance.

Its almost a reversal of the 'money earned through honest toil' mentality.

That money acquired through genuine work and business is somehow less worthy than money acquired without it.

** I know there are plenty of others involved among UK politicians and the establishment generally.

rottenborough said:

Scott_xP said:

EXCLUSIVE: I have been given a copy of document issued today by Russian Ministry of Health. It indicates Russia is anticipating a massive medical emergency & has ordered health organisations to immediately identify medical staff ready to relocate & work. https://twitter.com/EJ_Burrows/status/1497252061678813187/photo/1

The document includes list including "paediatric surgeons".

So I'm not sure this is for doctors to go and help wounded RU soldiers?

If they’re now expecting a more protracted war in Ukraine then they’ll have to provide medical support to the people in the occupied territories.

Anyone else noticed that New Zealand has lost control of Omicron ?

With over 12k new infections yesterday compared with under 2k a week before.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/new-zealand/

Luckyguy1983 said:

HYUFD said:

"The old concepts of fighting big tank battles on European land mass are over," Boris rather naively told Tobias Ellwood last year.

Russia has the biggest number of tanks in the world and has just launched the first land invasion of an independent sovereign state in Europe since WW2.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1497139951552671744?s=20&t=M3ZRMfdjWd-gYHi9u8MyuQ

Boris, we need more tanks and we need to send them to Poland and the Baltic States

No we don't, and no we don't.

Needing to make tanks and sell them to Poland and the Baltic States though, is a different matter.

Every European NATO nation needs more tanks, including us, Poland and the Baltics. It is not a matter of one nation producing them for the other, they all need to produce more of them and send them to NATO nations in Eastern Europe supported by fighter jets

Malmesbury said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Malmesbury said:

state_go_away said:

Serious question to Malmesbury - When do you plan to end the covid data? Its no great hassle to scroll over it (as you may have guessed I gave up on covid over a year ago) as I take no interest in it but just wondered if you have an end game plan!

Carry on until I have turned PB into an endless pile of monoliths......

My manifesto is expressed here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjogCytzX0s

"Don't you know there's a war on?"

"For you, the day Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday."

I would give Putin some credit if he could deliver a line like that.

My body clock is now set to the Malmesbury Monoliths, I see them and pour my first gin.

Surely traditionalists wouldn’t never want them to stop? If covid stops, just repeat favourite batches of monoliths like the BBC does with comedy.

MoonRabbit said:

Malmesbury said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Malmesbury said:

state_go_away said:

Serious question to Malmesbury - When do you plan to end the covid data? Its no great hassle to scroll over it (as you may have guessed I gave up on covid over a year ago) as I take no interest in it but just wondered if you have an end game plan!

Carry on until I have turned PB into an endless pile of monoliths......

My manifesto is expressed here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjogCytzX0s

"Don't you know there's a war on?"

"For you, the day Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday."

I would give Putin some credit if he could deliver a line like that.

My body clock is now set to the Malmesbury Monoliths, I see them and pour my first gin.

Surely traditionalists wouldn’t never want them to stop? If covid stops, just repeat favourite batches of monoliths like the BBC does with comedy.

Even if we have all been killed in a nuclear holocaust he will still be posting them I expect from a bunker, even though post vaccination and the end of restrictions they are almost as irrelevant now

Gardenwalker said:

Andy_JS said:

"Володимир Зеленський
@ZelenskyyUa

Today at 10:30 am at the entrances to Chernihiv, Hostomel and Melitopol there were heavy fighting. People died. Next time I'll try to move the war schedule to talk to #MarioDraghi at a specific time. Meanwhile, Ukraine continues to fight for its people.
11:36 AM · Feb 25, 2022"

https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1497173609957236738

Can we get Zelenskiy a safe seat and make him PM?

No, but if Kyiv falls and he manages to escape then we can offer him and his government somewhere to hide out for a while.

I imagine that Roman Abramovich's London mansion would make quite an acceptable presidential palace until enough Russians have been butchered in the field to persuade them to give up fighting.

BlancheLivermore said:

@JimmySecUK·12m
Dublin, Ireland. Angry crowd harasses a car carrying the Russian ambassador as it tries to enter the Embassy.

Ireland, I am proud of you.❤️🇮🇪
https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1497259463597826050

We need to see more of this, in capitals across the democratic world.

PJohnson said:

interesting view that this war has been cooked up on wall street and in the city of london

https://twitter.com/VigilantFox/status/1497031347042459648?s=20&t=aQZwT7pvXsbvIXuYZEIJjQ

Interesting is not the word I'd choose.

PJohnson said:

interesting view that this war has been cooked up on wall street and in the city of london

https://twitter.com/VigilantFox/status/1497031347042459648?s=20&t=aQZwT7pvXsbvIXuYZEIJjQ

Completely deluded would be closer to the mark.

Phil said:

rottenborough said:

Scott_xP said:

EXCLUSIVE: I have been given a copy of document issued today by Russian Ministry of Health. It indicates Russia is anticipating a massive medical emergency & has ordered health organisations to immediately identify medical staff ready to relocate & work. https://twitter.com/EJ_Burrows/status/1497252061678813187/photo/1

The document includes list including "paediatric surgeons".

So I'm not sure this is for doctors to go and help wounded RU soldiers?

If they’re now expecting a more protracted war in Ukraine then they’ll have to provide medical support to the people in the occupied territories.

Alternatively, a paediatric surgeon is also a general surgeon.

JohnLilburne said:

Phil said:

rottenborough said:

Scott_xP said:

EXCLUSIVE: I have been given a copy of document issued today by Russian Ministry of Health. It indicates Russia is anticipating a massive medical emergency & has ordered health organisations to immediately identify medical staff ready to relocate & work. https://twitter.com/EJ_Burrows/status/1497252061678813187/photo/1

The document includes list including "paediatric surgeons".

So I'm not sure this is for doctors to go and help wounded RU soldiers?

If they’re now expecting a more protracted war in Ukraine then they’ll have to provide medical support to the people in the occupied territories.

Alternatively, a paediatric surgeon is also a general surgeon.

From when our little 'un is born, a paediatric nurse is well used to lots of blood and stitching...

PJohnson said:

interesting view that this war has been cooked up on wall street and in the city of london

https://twitter.com/VigilantFox/status/1497031347042459648?s=20&t=aQZwT7pvXsbvIXuYZEIJjQ

Some people are utterly deluded yet 35,000+ follow him...

While everything Mr Meeks said this morning is obvious, it's worth repeating how much damage social media does to those who use it as their sole source of news.

WhisperingOracle said:

The whole idea of taking Kiev, and some other cities further north, especially from the beginning, isn't the work of a fully functioning strategic mind, I think, and as mentioned yesterday. He could have so much more easily worked to hold and expand the eastern areas, and then formed a land corridor all the way along the coast , working to cover all the most important strategic areas along the way.

It's the sort of decision you would make in his position if surrounded by yes men, isolated, and not in the best mental condition, it very much looks to me.

Except that limited war aims don't allow you to rebuild the Russian Empire.

Connecting up your silly little satrapies in the south makes perfect sense if that's all you're interested in, but it also leaves the Ukrainian government in control of most of its territory, feeling frightened and enraged in equal measure, and busily constructing a huge army backed by Western money and equipped and trained to Western standards.

Putin has grabbed Ukraine now because he thinks he's entitled to grab it, because he feels a sense of historical destiny, and because he thinks he can get away with it. If he has been convinced by bad advisors, or by his own delusions, that this invasion is going to be a walk in the park for the mighty Russian army then I think he's going to be disabused of that notion, with potentially fatal personal consequences.

dixiedean said:

Andy_JS said:

Theuniondivvie said:

How will this go down?

Ben Judah
@b_judah
Zemmour: "We must absolutely reassure the Russians on Ukraine which, for them, is a Russian country."

That's the end of his hopes of getting into the second round.

And perhaps the first round hopefully.

By his logic, Gascony and Normandy belong to the UK, Provence to Italy, Alsace to Germany and Dijon to the Netherlands.

williamglenn said:

rottenborough said:

Scott_xP said:

EXCLUSIVE: I have been given a copy of document issued today by Russian Ministry of Health. It indicates Russia is anticipating a massive medical emergency & has ordered health organisations to immediately identify medical staff ready to relocate & work. https://twitter.com/EJ_Burrows/status/1497252061678813187/photo/1

The document includes list including "paediatric surgeons".

So I'm not sure this is for doctors to go and help wounded RU soldiers?

My fear would be that they're planning a false flag terrorist attack to try to get the Russian people behind the war.

Or preparing for Ukrainian counter-attack

The little 'un just said:

"Instead of 'Vladimir Putin, why don't we call him 'Bladder-seer PooPoo" ?

I approve of this change....

PJohnson said:

FWIW Dow jones index up 800 points now

Thus recovering to approximately the same position as it was in two days ago.

Your stock market analysis is truly revelatory, Sergei.

JosiasJessop said:

The little 'un just said:

"Instead of 'Vladimir Putin, why don't we call him 'Bladder-seer PooPoo" ?

I approve of this change....

That makes me think that Shitcan might be a good name for him.

That's Vlad, not your son!

Gardenwalker said:

Rumours that a SWIFT ban might be back on.

It has proved a hard thing to swallow....

BlancheLivermore said:

JosiasJessop said:

The little 'un just said:

"Instead of 'Vladimir Putin, why don't we call him 'Bladder-seer PooPoo" ?

I approve of this change....

That makes me think that Shitcan might be a good name for him.

That's Vlad, not your son!

Are you privy to the necessary information?

ydoethur said:

dixiedean said:

Andy_JS said:

Theuniondivvie said:

How will this go down?

Ben Judah
@b_judah
Zemmour: "We must absolutely reassure the Russians on Ukraine which, for them, is a Russian country."

That's the end of his hopes of getting into the second round.

And perhaps the first round hopefully.

By his logic, Gascony and Normandy belong to the UK, Provence to Italy, Alsace to Germany and Dijon to the Netherlands.

Gascony and Normandy? That's not very ambitious. I'd be going for a full restoration of the Angevin Empire myself.

pigeon said:

ydoethur said:

dixiedean said:

Andy_JS said:

Theuniondivvie said:

How will this go down?

Ben Judah
@b_judah
Zemmour: "We must absolutely reassure the Russians on Ukraine which, for them, is a Russian country."

That's the end of his hopes of getting into the second round.

And perhaps the first round hopefully.

By his logic, Gascony and Normandy belong to the UK, Provence to Italy, Alsace to Germany and Dijon to the Netherlands.

Gascony and Normandy? That's not very ambitious. I'd be going for a full restoration of the Angevin Empire myself.

We wouldn't want Maine and Anjou. But Gascony's lovely and Normandy has much in common with the south of England.

BlancheLivermore said:

williamglenn said:

rottenborough said:

Scott_xP said:

EXCLUSIVE: I have been given a copy of document issued today by Russian Ministry of Health. It indicates Russia is anticipating a massive medical emergency & has ordered health organisations to immediately identify medical staff ready to relocate & work. https://twitter.com/EJ_Burrows/status/1497252061678813187/photo/1

The document includes list including "paediatric surgeons".

So I'm not sure this is for doctors to go and help wounded RU soldiers?

My fear would be that they're planning a false flag terrorist attack to try to get the Russian people behind the war.

Dmytro Kuleba
@DmytroKuleba
According to intelligence, Russia is planning a large-scale provocation in order to "dehumanize" Ukrainians, accusing Ukraine of alleged inhuman actions. Don't be fooled by fakes. Ukraine defends its land in a just defensive war. Unlike Russia, we do not target kindergartens and civilians.
https://twitter.com/DmytroKuleba/status/1497266285566173184

That could have been what happened with his Chechen friends bombing the blocks of flats more than 20 years ago, and it could happen again. Potentially very worrying if true.

@DmytroKuleba
Call with my Italian counterpart @luigidimaio. Full solidarity with Ukraine. My colleague assured me that Italy will support banning Russia fromSWIFT.

https://twitter.com/DmytroKuleba/status/1497267568461205509

ydoethur said:

JohnLilburne said:

williamglenn said:

rottenborough said:

Scott_xP said:

EXCLUSIVE: I have been given a copy of document issued today by Russian Ministry of Health. It indicates Russia is anticipating a massive medical emergency & has ordered health organisations to immediately identify medical staff ready to relocate & work. https://twitter.com/EJ_Burrows/status/1497252061678813187/photo/1

The document includes list including "paediatric surgeons".

So I'm not sure this is for doctors to go and help wounded RU soldiers?

My fear would be that they're planning a false flag terrorist attack to try to get the Russian people behind the war.

Or preparing for Ukrainian counter-attack

The idea that the Ukrainians could counter attack to any significant extent is even madder than the idea that Sergei Lavrov is fit to be a diplomat.

The Russians still have a force somewhat greater than the entire Ukrainian army poised to invade that they haven't even committed yet.

So if not a counter attack, how would you describe the Battle of Grozny?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grozny_(1994–1995)

"The New Year's Eve battle was devastating for the Russians; the first Russian armored column lost 105 of their 120 tanks and armored personnel carriers.[21] The entire first battalion of the Maikop Brigade, more than half of the 81st Regiment plus hundreds of men from the remaining units, were dead. A high-ranking Russian General Staff officer said "On January 2nd, we lost contact with our forward units." According to Maskhadov, some 400 Russian tanks and APCs were destroyed.[22] Russian General A. Galkin reported 225 armored vehicles lost during the first month and a half of the invasion, including 62 tanks.[23]"

Ukraine is allegedly asking Israel to facilitate potential mediation with Russia.

Phil said:

LordWakefield said:

Obviously the Ukrainian invasion wouldn't have happened with a strongman in the White House. A tyrant like Putin against Joe Biden well what a fuck up. For many on then Left that opposed Trump this is life coming at you fast.

You’re delusional.

Sadly, lots of Trump fanboys are a sandwich short of a picnic. Bet Lord W is a bonafide QAnon believer as well

Pro_Rata said:

What should we do?

What strikes me is what we are asking of the Ukrainian, to fight alone in a war of survival, but with extra weaponry. In essence, we are asking them to make the war more brutal, more attritional, more bloody to deter Russia. Some of what we provide might help shield the civilians in cities, but on average the emphasis of our defence help is not immediately humanitarian in nature.

Whatever the rights, wrongs and realpolitic of the eastern expansion of NATO over the last 3 decades - too far, correct or not far enough, that, bluntly, is our ask, as allies, of the Ukrainian people.

So, when I turn to sanctions, narrow based sanctions on the Russian elites don't cut it. Our ask of our ordinary Ukranian friends is way more of our ask on ordinary Russians living on the other side of this war. Hit the elites hard, yes, definitely, but we should not shy from impact on ordinary Russians, nor indeed of some impact on ourselves.

There’s a lot of posts on here urging and willing the Ukrainians to fight on, and trying to paint it as a fight they are doing well in, which I think disguises this is, in truth and fact leading to something just as horrible and difficult to except as the end of the Prague Spring with that invasion.

Someone posted here other day, after Russia went into Czechoslovakia, over next ten years they pilfered it.

At the crunch the Western world did not stand shoulder to shoulder with Ukraine this time. The dream of poor Ukrainians being in EU and getting wealthier and having nice things like western everyday people is over now, for time being, more days of terror and war in their country (not ours) won’t change that at all. In fact brilliant people like Zelenskiy and Klitchko and others we don’t even know their name might die.

I don’t feel as gung ho as PB today. It suddenly seems pointless to me. Is this anti Russian bloodlust just trying to hide the guilt? Carry on calling me a traitor and surrender monkey if you want, I would rather wake up tomorrow to a ceasefire and Zelenskiy in Minsk talking with Putin, than wake up to find it still going on.

boulay said:

BlancheLivermore said:

@JimmySecUK·12m
Dublin, Ireland. Angry crowd harasses a car carrying the Russian ambassador as it tries to enter the Embassy.

Ireland, I am proud of you.❤️🇮🇪
https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1497259463597826050

Need one in London but instead of the embassy needs to be through the streets of Knightsbridge and Sloane St and snarl it up all day tomorrow and ruin their shopping - that will hurt them more than SWIFT ban.

Also US/UK/EU should be peppering the airwaves saying that the Russians plan a terrible false flag op in Russia to discredit the Ukrainians - hopefully it will either hold one off or at least if it happens then a chance of Russians not believing it was the Ukrainians.

Cutting up their credit cards in Harrods and Selfridges would be embarrassing.

rcs1000 said:

another_richard said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

EPG said:

DavidL said:

EPG said:

williamglenn said:

The head of the German Intelligence Agency had to be evacuated from Ukraine. Apparently he didn't believe an invasion would happen...

https://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-krise/praesident-des-bundesnachrichtendienstes-wurde-aus-hoechster-not-aus-der-ukraine-gerettet_id_59192174.html

I would see the presence of German intelligence in Kiev as good news for Ukraine, all in all. It suggests some kind of assistance.

Why does the phrase with friends like these come to mind?

Because the British right-wing is scratching its anti-German itch this week? Germany cancelled Nord Stream 2 while the UK won't cancel Hilary Term at Eton. Course, the UK sent more material assistance to Ukraine, but instead of agreeing to unite some people want to pretend to be better in every way.

No you fuckwit we just recognise when some Governments are acting as barriers to a unified approach. Just like Germany is right now.

And Germany only agreed to suspend Nord Stream 2 because they had already been told by the Americans that if they didn't the US would find a more permanent way of shutting it down.

Given that its the end of winter how much would Germany use NS2 even if it was approved ?

Vlad's chosen an odd time to invade: winds are strong across Europe and gas storage is near highs, just as domestic heating requirements are starting to drop.

This is a great chart showing current German electricity production by type: https://www.energy-charts.info/charts/power/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&stacking=stacked_absolute_area

The Germans are only using 3GW of natural gas right now.

Back in the middle of winter, it might have 20GW.

The Russians chose a very odd time to invade.

I reckon the Chinese asked them to avoid the Olympics. Would partially explain the Chinese words after the invasion.

OllyT said:

Phil said:

LordWakefield said:

Obviously the Ukrainian invasion wouldn't have happened with a strongman in the White House. A tyrant like Putin against Joe Biden well what a fuck up. For many on then Left that opposed Trump this is life coming at you fast.

You’re delusional.

Sadly, lots of Trump fanboys are a sandwich short of a picnic. Bet Lord W is a bonafide QAnon believer as well

Most of the Trump fanboys are a picnic short of a picnic.

"Haggis_UK 🇬🇧 🇪🇺@Haggis_UK

Russia Today cite Nigel Farage as an example of "not everyone piling the blame on Russia" for the invasion of Ukraine."

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1497153805909209088

MoonRabbit said:

Pro_Rata said:

What should we do?

What strikes me is what we are asking of the Ukrainian, to fight alone in a war of survival, but with extra weaponry. In essence, we are asking them to make the war more brutal, more attritional, more bloody to deter Russia. Some of what we provide might help shield the civilians in cities, but on average the emphasis of our defence help is not immediately humanitarian in nature.

Whatever the rights, wrongs and realpolitic of the eastern expansion of NATO over the last 3 decades - too far, correct or not far enough, that, bluntly, is our ask, as allies, of the Ukrainian people.

So, when I turn to sanctions, narrow based sanctions on the Russian elites don't cut it. Our ask of our ordinary Ukranian friends is way more of our ask on ordinary Russians living on the other side of this war. Hit the elites hard, yes, definitely, but we should not shy from impact on ordinary Russians, nor indeed of some impact on ourselves.

There’s a lot of posts on here urging and willing the Ukrainians to fight on, and trying to paint it as a fight they are doing well in, which I think disguises this is, in truth and fact leading to something just as horrible and difficult to except as the end of the Prague Spring with that invasion.

Someone posted here other day, after Russia went into Czechoslovakia, over next ten years they pilfered it.

At the crunch the Western world did not stand shoulder to shoulder with Ukraine this time. The dream of poor Ukrainians being in EU and getting wealthier and having nice things like western everyday people is over now, for time being, more days of terror and war in their country (not ours) won’t change that at all. In fact brilliant people like Zelenskiy and Klitchko and others we don’t even know their name might die.

I don’t feel as gung ho as PB today. It suddenly seems pointless to me. Is this anti Russian bloodlust just trying to hide the guilt? Carry on calling me a traitor and surrender monkey if you want, I would rather wake up tomorrow to a ceasefire and Zelenskiy in Minsk talking with Putin, than wake up to find it still going on.

The Ukrainians, or a great many of them anyway, may simply have decided that they prefer to gamble on a military solution and potentially die fighting than to suffer the slow garrotting that comes from being turned into another Belarus, and who are we to say that they're wrong?

Malmesbury said:

Wulfrun_Phil said:

ydoethur said:

JohnLilburne said:

williamglenn said:

rottenborough said:

Scott_xP said:

EXCLUSIVE: I have been given a copy of document issued today by Russian Ministry of Health. It indicates Russia is anticipating a massive medical emergency & has ordered health organisations to immediately identify medical staff ready to relocate & work. https://twitter.com/EJ_Burrows/status/1497252061678813187/photo/1

The document includes list including "paediatric surgeons".

So I'm not sure this is for doctors to go and help wounded RU soldiers?

My fear would be that they're planning a false flag terrorist attack to try to get the Russian people behind the war.

Or preparing for Ukrainian counter-attack

The idea that the Ukrainians could counter attack to any significant extent is even madder than the idea that Sergei Lavrov is fit to be a diplomat.

The Russians still have a force somewhat greater than the entire Ukrainian army poised to invade that they haven't even committed yet.

So if not a counter attack, how would you describe the Battle of Grozny?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grozny_(1994–1995)

"The New Year's Eve battle was devastating for the Russians; the first Russian armored column lost 105 of their 120 tanks and armored personnel carriers.[21] The entire first battalion of the Maikop Brigade, more than half of the 81st Regiment plus hundreds of men from the remaining units, were dead. A high-ranking Russian General Staff officer said "On January 2nd, we lost contact with our forward units." According to Maskhadov, some 400 Russian tanks and APCs were destroyed.[22] Russian General A. Galkin reported 225 armored vehicles lost during the first month and a half of the invasion, including 62 tanks.[23]"

A tactical counter attack, not a strategic one, possibly?

Certainly Ukraine won't be pushing into the Crimea or something. But it *might* be able to push back some Russian units, in some places.

They apparently turned the Russians back at Chernihiv, they have had to take a different route to Kyiv.