Richard - Sporting's turnout % bet is really very boring, since it seems very likely that the outcome will be within about 2% either side of their spread.
'Tis a shame Sporting has not as yet entered the 2015 GE fray with the daddy of them all - spreads on the number of seats won by each of the major parties. Perhaps IG will return for a one night extravaganza to show them how it should be done.
1. Mr. Smithson is absolutely panting that Boris fails in Uxbridge and then plumps for Clacton in the hope of halting the UKIP bandwagon. No matter how much Mike S. has staked on this probable outcome, I believe that Boris would lose if he stood for Clapton in such conditions. Not only would he lose, but his name would be tarnished in politics, perhaps forever, and thats why he won't do it.
2. Good win for UKIP in Folkestone Harvey Central last night. 27.9% #UKIP (+27.9 since 2011) 21.7% CON (-17.3) 19.2% LDEM (+2.3) 19.0% LAB (-9.1) 12.1% OTH
Ray says: "The market for my skills dried up 10 years ago - there's a total lack of work in my area of expertise."
The couple share their home with six of their children - their five-year-old son, Raymond's twin girls from his first marriage, and three of his wife's four children from an earlier relationship.
Call me old fashioned, but one would have thought being responsible for that many kids would have motivated him to retrain. He's had a decade to think about what to do...
1. Mr. Smithson is absolutely panting that Boris fails in Uxbridge and then plumps for Clacton in the hope of halting the UKIP bandwagon. No matter how much Mike S. has staked on this probable outcome, I believe that Boris would lose if he stood for Clapton in such conditions. Not only would he lose, but his name would be tarnished in politics, perhaps forever, and thats why he won't do it.
2. Good win for UKIP in Folkestone Harvey Central last night. 27.9% #UKIP (+27.9 since 2011) 21.7% CON (-17.3) 19.2% LDEM (+2.3) 19.0% LAB (-9.1) 12.1% OTH
BTW the Guardian is saying there are rumours of a poll showing a significant YES lead, due this weekend.
However I suspect they might be talking about the same Panelbase poll as the rest of us, due today according to Twitter, which hasn't materialised.
we're in that period where nobody knows and everyone lies.
So business as usual then......
I'm still mildly shocked that Miliband's ratings in Scotland are worse than Cameron's.
I know he's Crap....but really, worse than a Tory PM!
MG saying that he would vote Tory ahead of Miliband is quite telling. My wife feels the same, she being fairly natural Labour supporter and hates the Tories.
A little embarrassing for the local MPs. I think we all know which end of the local pay scale Ed, Rosie and Caroline are at. Interesting how Labour MPs are so much better at getting rich themselves than they are at enriching their constituents.
" it found that the employment and pay situation in Doncaster was among the worst in the whole of the country.
cities with the number of low-paid workers showing the greatest gap from highly-paid workers. "
maybe when other parties offer them something worth having.
The corollary of the position is when will the conservatives start making real in roads in to the difficulties of the low paid instead of shovelling in immigrants and giving subsidies and tax cuts to the well off ?
The world has changed and 20the century solutions are no longer applicable to 21st century problems.
Yes the UK could ban all non-EU immigrants who do not have a degree or similar, but that would not solve the problem of EU immigrants who have gained a EU-country nationality and so come to the UK under that guise.
The UK could disqualify any non-EU immigrants for UK benefits unless they have at least 5 years of paying Tax and NI.
The UK could reduce its benefit levels to those of the lowest EU country and so certain immigrants would not target the UK so much.
However, no government can create jobs that are competitive globally without at the same time improving both the UK's education standards and the personal and professional aspiration that we had over 50 years ago.
None of these will happen whilst we have a coalition HMG with the weepy LDs moderating all useful progress in this area.
You aren't going to get a conservative government while Cameron and co are unable to appeal to a large slice of aspirational voters who want to see the work rewarded but instead see system is cheating them. With lots of breaks and subsidies for the well off and immigration and benefits making them look mugs for playing by the rules.
Cameron hasn't worked out that a factory worker's vote is equal to a banker's, he's just not very good at politics.
Well said, Mr. Brooke.
Might I suggest that, "... aspirational voters who want to see the work rewarded but instead see system is cheating them ..." is a large chunk of the reason why UKIP is on the rise.
'Tis a shame Sporting has not as yet entered the 2015 GE fray with the daddy of them all - spreads on the number of seats won by each of the major parties. Perhaps IG will return for a one night extravaganza to show them how it should be done.
They did have a Swingometer market, currently suspended. I have an open position on it
Cameron hasn't worked out that a factory worker's vote is equal to a banker's, he's just not very good at politics.
This is a popular refrain on PB, along with talk of Cameron resigning if a referendum he didn't call and can't vote in doesn't return a particular result.
If there is a NO vote, and Eck slinks away to enjoy his multiple taxpayer funded pensions in obscurity, will we see lots of posts from these people saying that actually Cameron might just know what he's about after all?
India at 1.84 looks generous for the ODI - England are hopeless.
I agree but then cricket's a funny old game. I've been looking out for a market on Alastair Cook getting sacked or more likely "resigning" as England captain, but none exists. Perhaps the bookies view it as a foregone conclusion.
1. Mr. Smithson is absolutely panting that Boris fails in Uxbridge and then plumps for Clacton in the hope of halting the UKIP bandwagon. No matter how much Mike S. has staked on this probable outcome, I believe that Boris would lose if he stood for Clapton in such conditions. Not only would he lose, but his name would be tarnished in politics, perhaps forever, and thats why he won't do it.
2. Good win for UKIP in Folkestone Harvey Central last night. 27.9% #UKIP (+27.9 since 2011) 21.7% CON (-17.3) 19.2% LDEM (+2.3) 19.0% LAB (-9.1) 12.1% OTH
A win is a win, but I'd have expected something more emphatic.
I think, @Sean_F, that in the new conditions and where all 4 candidates from the main parties are standing, this sort of narrow result may well become the norm, no matter who the winner is.
1. Mr. Smithson is absolutely panting that Boris fails in Uxbridge and then plumps for Clacton in the hope of halting the UKIP bandwagon. No matter how much Mike S. has staked on this probable outcome, I believe that Boris would lose if he stood for Clapton in such conditions. Not only would he lose, but his name would be tarnished in politics, perhaps forever, and thats why he won't do it.
2. Good win for UKIP in Folkestone Harvey Central last night. 27.9% #UKIP (+27.9 since 2011) 21.7% CON (-17.3) 19.2% LDEM (+2.3) 19.0% LAB (-9.1) 12.1% OTH
Cameron hasn't worked out that a factory worker's vote is equal to a banker's, he's just not very good at politics.
This is a popular refrain on PB, along with talk of Cameron resigning if a referendum he didn't call and can't vote in doesn't return a particular result.
If there is a NO vote, and Eck slinks away to enjoy his multiple taxpayer funded pensions in obscurity, will we see lots of posts from these people saying that actually Cameron might just know what he's about after all?
I'm not in the camp that says Cameron should resign if it's a YES, I think Miliband should though.
I am however in the camp that says Cameron should get off his arse and start doing more to engage with voters in N England and Scotland. And that he should resign if he can't start winning some more votes from them.
Clacton would have to be a very poor fit for Boris, surely? It's a white working class town beset with poor employment prospects: they're hardly going to be enamoured with the pro-immigration Etonian.
Amazingly, the generation educated under New Labour do badly on the test, while previous generations do a lot better.
The old have more wisdom than the young shock. Nothing new there.
When I speak to older people I'm often struck by how many say their school days were a waste of time for them, they hated it and the teachers couldn't wait to get rid of them. In some cases they've educated themselves as adults to a reasonable level. A golden age of education? Not convinced.
Richard - Sporting's turnout % bet is really very boring, since it seems very likely that the outcome will be within about 2% either side of their spread.
'Tis a shame Sporting has not as yet entered the 2015 GE fray with the daddy of them all - spreads on the number of seats won by each of the major parties. Perhaps IG will return for a one night extravaganza to show them how it should be done.
The political betting at IG was done by the sports team, which no longer exists, so I don't reckon they will make any markets...
The reason these markets arent offered constantly has a lot to do with the fact that the only people that bet on them were "snides" who played on opinion poll moves when no one was looking...
Ray says: "The market for my skills dried up 10 years ago - there's a total lack of work in my area of expertise."
The couple share their home with six of their children - their five-year-old son, Raymond's twin girls from his first marriage, and three of his wife's four children from an earlier relationship.
Call me old fashioned, but one would have thought being responsible for that many kids would have motivated him to retrain. He's had a decade to think about what to do...
I'm sure I've heard his story before (the unemployed educational software developer seems to appear surprisingly often).
The thing is he worked in IT and the one thing I can safely say after 25 years of working in IT, is that unless you keep up with current trends you will be left behind. But its not difficult to keep up with current trends.
'Tis a shame Sporting has not as yet entered the 2015 GE fray with the daddy of them all - spreads on the number of seats won by each of the major parties. Perhaps IG will return for a one night extravaganza to show them how it should be done.
They did have a Swingometer market, currently suspended. I have an open position on it
So do I, as does Richard N I believe. I don't understand why it's always suspended - which rather goes against their much heralded concept of always being able to trade one's bets. Why offer such markets, only to lock clients into their positions. A big black mark for Sporting!
A little embarrassing for the local MPs. I think we all know which end of the local pay scale Ed, Rosie and Caroline are at. Interesting how Labour MPs are so much better at getting rich themselves than they are at enriching their constituents.
" it found that the employment and pay situation in Doncaster was among the worst in the whole of the country.
cities with the number of low-paid workers showing the greatest gap from highly-paid workers. "
maybe when other parties offer them something worth having.
The corollary of the position is when will the conservatives start making real in roads in to the difficulties of the low paid instead of shovelling in immigrants and giving subsidies and tax cuts to the well off ?
The world has changed and 20the century solutions are no longer applicable to 21st century problems.
Yes the UK could ban all non-EU immigrants who do not have a degree or similar, but that would not solve the problem of EU immigrants who have gained a EU-country nationality and so come to the UK under that guise.
The UK could disqualify any non-EU immigrants for UK benefits unless they have at least 5 years of paying Tax and NI.
The UK could reduce its benefit levels to those of the lowest EU country and so certain immigrants would not target the UK so much.
However, no government can create jobs that are competitive globally without at the same time improving both the UK's education standards and the personal and professional aspiration that we had over 50 years ago.
None of these will happen whilst we have a coalition HMG with the weepy LDs moderating all useful progress in this area.
You aren't going to get a conservative government while Cameron and co are unable to appeal to a large slice of aspirational voters who want to see the work rewarded but instead see system is cheating them. With lots of breaks and subsidies for the well off and immigration and benefits making them look mugs for playing by the rules.
Cameron hasn't worked out that a factory worker's vote is equal to a banker's, he's just not very good at politics.
Which breaks and subsidies for the well off?
How would you restructure immigration and benefits?
Clacton would have to be a very poor fit for Boris, surely? It's a white working class town beset with poor employment prospects: they're hardly going to be enamoured with the pro-immigration Etonian.
The Tories haven't won a general election since 1992. They're convinced they have found their saviour who is all purpose and unstoppable. Boris' appeal is universal. Everyone has been waiting to vote for a 'proper' Tory, it just has to be one who has that special something that will reach into people's souls etc
Clacton would have to be a very poor fit for Boris, surely? It's a white working class town beset with poor employment prospects: they're hardly going to be enamoured with the pro-immigration Etonian.
Exactly. I'm generally not too sympathetic to the claims by Kipper commenters that the media and Tory leadership are "out of touch" with the kind of voters who are Tory -> UKIP switchers. But the fact that the idea of Boris in Clacton has been seriously floated at all is making me start to reconsider.
Ray says: "The market for my skills dried up 10 years ago - there's a total lack of work in my area of expertise."
The couple share their home with six of their children - their five-year-old son, Raymond's twin girls from his first marriage, and three of his wife's four children from an earlier relationship.
Call me old fashioned, but one would have thought being responsible for that many kids would have motivated him to retrain. He's had a decade to think about what to do...
I'm sure I've heard his story before (the unemployed educational software developer seems to appear surprisingly often).
The thing is he worked in IT and the one thing I can safely say after 25 years of working in IT, is that unless you keep up with current trends you will be left behind. But its not difficult to keep up with current trends.
'24 cans of lager, 200 cigarettes and a large pouch of tobacco'
A little embarrassing for the local MPs. I think we all know which end of the local pay scale Ed, Rosie and Caroline are at. Interesting how Labour MPs are so much better at getting rich themselves than they are at enriching their constituents.
" it found that the employment and pay situation in Doncaster was among the worst in the whole of the country.
cities with the number of low-paid workers showing the greatest gap from highly-paid workers. "
maybe when other parties offer them something worth having.
The corollary of the position is when will the conservatives start making real in roads in to the difficulties of the low paid instead of shovelling in immigrants and giving subsidies and tax cuts to the well off ?
The world has changed and 20the century solutions are no longer applicable to 21st century problems.
Yes the UK could ban all non-EU immigrants who do not have a degree or similar, but that would not solve the problem of EU immigrants who have gained a EU-country nationality and so come to the UK under that guise.
The UK could disqualify any non-EU immigrants for UK benefits unless they have at least 5 years of paying Tax and NI.
The UK could reduce its benefit levels to those of the lowest EU country and so certain immigrants would not target the UK so much.
However, no government can create jobs that are competitive globally without at the same time improving both the UK's education standards and the personal and professional aspiration that we had over 50 years ago.
None of these will happen whilst we have a coalition HMG with the weepy LDs moderating all useful progress in this area.
You aren't going to get a conservative government while Cameron and co are unable to appeal to a large slice of aspirational voters who want to see the work rewarded but instead see system is cheating them. With lots of breaks and subsidies for the well off and immigration and benefits making them look mugs for playing by the rules.
Cameron hasn't worked out that a factory worker's vote is equal to a banker's, he's just not very good at politics.
Which breaks and subsidies for the well off?
How would you restructure immigration and benefits?
BTW the Guardian is saying there are rumours of a poll showing a significant YES lead, due this weekend.
However I suspect they might be talking about the same Panelbase poll as the rest of us, due today according to Twitter, which hasn't materialised.
Yes is back up to 4.7 from sub 4 earlier this week on betfair. Not many punters trusting in this poll.
It's gone from 3.9 to 4.7 in the past 24 hours. Why?
As I said - postal votes are already starting to go in....
As well as all the other problems with making a judgement on postal vote returns one would be very foolish to think they were representative of the overall result. Postal votes tend to favour Tories and hence could well be disproportionately 'no' up in Scotland.
As if Prison Soap Carswell hasn't done enough damage:
David Cameron could face a leadership challenge from his own backbenches if Scotland votes in favour of independence, as Tory rebels blame him for presiding over the break-up of the Union.
The Independent understands that discussions have already taken place among Tory MPs considering standing a candidate against the Prime Minister if the Yes campaign is triumphant on 18 September.
Cameron hasn't worked out that a factory worker's vote is equal to a banker's, he's just not very good at politics.
This is a popular refrain on PB, along with talk of Cameron resigning if a referendum he didn't call and can't vote in doesn't return a particular result.
If there is a NO vote, and Eck slinks away to enjoy his multiple taxpayer funded pensions in obscurity, will we see lots of posts from these people saying that actually Cameron might just know what he's about after all?
I'm not in the camp that says Cameron should resign if it's a YES, I think Miliband should though.
I am however in the camp that says Cameron should get off his arse and start doing more to engage with voters in N England and Scotland. And that he should resign if he can't start winning some more votes from them.
It's rather too late for that I fear. Who could possibly imagine him getting out the soap box and doing a John Major? He's not made of the same stuff unfortunately.
Ray says: "The market for my skills dried up 10 years ago - there's a total lack of work in my area of expertise."
The couple share their home with six of their children - their five-year-old son, Raymond's twin girls from his first marriage, and three of his wife's four children from an earlier relationship.
Call me old fashioned, but one would have thought being responsible for that many kids would have motivated him to retrain. He's had a decade to think about what to do...
Given a pack of 20 costs about 8 quid, that's 80 per week on cigs..
Amazingly, the generation educated under New Labour do badly on the test, while previous generations do a lot better.
The old have more wisdom than the young shock. Nothing new there.
When I speak to older people I'm often struck by how many say their school days were a waste of time for them, they hated it and the teachers couldn't wait to get rid of them. In some cases they've educated themselves as adults to a reasonable level. A golden age of education? Not convinced.
I'm not saying it was a golden age of education. I'm saying it was a basic age of education. Seriously, not knowing that Florence Nightingale was a nurse, or that stonehenge was the stone age site, or that St David is the patron saint of Wales? These are basic facts that I knew at 14. And that's before you get to the truly idiotic questions like "True or false: there are language variations across the UK" or "True of false: British values are based on history and tradition"...
Clacton would have to be a very poor fit for Boris, surely? It's a white working class town beset with poor employment prospects: they're hardly going to be enamoured with the pro-immigration Etonian.
The Tories haven't won a general election since 1992. They're convinced they have found their saviour who is all purpose and unstoppable. Boris' appeal is universal. Everyone has been waiting to vote for a 'proper' Tory, it just has to be one who has that special something that will reach into people's souls etc
Boris Johnson has honesty issues - look at the weaselly way in which he dealt with questioning about whether he'd stand as an MP. And as for his personal life - he's wholly unsuitable for high office.
Not a chance Boris has the balls to stand in Clacton and face the prospect of losing, his leadership bid and chances of becoming an MP next year will shrink overnight. The tories will put up a token candidate and hope it goes away rather than chuck the kitchen sink, as in Newark, and risk further humiliation.
Ray says: "The market for my skills dried up 10 years ago - there's a total lack of work in my area of expertise."
The couple share their home with six of their children - their five-year-old son, Raymond's twin girls from his first marriage, and three of his wife's four children from an earlier relationship.
Call me old fashioned, but one would have thought being responsible for that many kids would have motivated him to retrain. He's had a decade to think about what to do...
Given a pack of 20 costs about 8 quid, that's 80 per week on cigs..
Bloody hell.
Exactly. Kind of hard to feel sympathy for the chap.
The fact that Johnson will not go for Clacton is indicative of his Old Etonian attitude which.despite his claims to act in the interests of the nation,and the Tory party,shows the only consideration Johnson has is Boris Johnson.He may come to regret his own hubris.His refusal to meet BoB Crow,RIP,already proved the man has a long streak of yellow running through him. As for Cameron, he surely must resign in the event of a Yes vote-any other decision would be based on unethical inauthenticity,an act of bad faith.Knowing his character up to now,it is likely he will need to be pushed as the only reason he wanted to be PM because he thinks he would be quite good at it.A Yes vote will put the kibosh on that delusion.
It's rather too late for that I fear. Who could possibly imagine him getting out the soap box and doing a John Major? He's not made of the same stuff unfortunately.
Have you already forgotten his Cameron Direct events?
It's rather too late for that I fear. Who could possibly imagine him getting out the soap box and doing a John Major? He's not made of the same stuff unfortunately.
Have you already forgotten his Cameron Direct events?
As if Prison Soap Carswell hasn't done enough damage:
David Cameron could face a leadership challenge from his own backbenches if Scotland votes in favour of independence, as Tory rebels blame him for presiding over the break-up of the Union.
The Independent understands that discussions have already taken place among Tory MPs considering standing a candidate against the Prime Minister if the Yes campaign is triumphant on 18 September.
Ray says: "The market for my skills dried up 10 years ago - there's a total lack of work in my area of expertise."
The couple share their home with six of their children - their five-year-old son, Raymond's twin girls from his first marriage, and three of his wife's four children from an earlier relationship.
Call me old fashioned, but one would have thought being responsible for that many kids would have motivated him to retrain. He's had a decade to think about what to do...
Given a pack of 20 costs about 8 quid, that's 80 per week on cigs..
Bloody hell.
Not to mention another £17 or thereabouts for 50 gms of hand-rolling tobacco and you're up to almost a hundred quid per week ...... all up in smoke!
Life as a backbench MP in the current Conservative Party, no wonder so many are leaving
"Another 2010 backbencher, also unhappy with their lot, says: “We are all fed up of telling the leadership this policy won’t work, being told we’re amateurs, and the Government U-turning later
That culture of ignoring the so-called amateurs makes the party seem as petty as a secondary school.
Indeed, one MP who is leaving says: “I’ve spent my whole life running away from and proving wrong those kids at school who were unpleasant and arrogant. Then I arrived in Parliament and found they were at the top of my party.” Fine if the cool kids want you in their inner circle, but if they look down their noses at you, why not head back to the private sector where people are a little more grown-up? "
Well of course they shouldn't and perhaps the Conservatives in government would acre to explain their re-adoption of the European Arrest Warrant that made it possible. Mind you, I hope the family sue the arse off the idiot in Hampshire Police who actually took out the warrant.
Amazingly, the generation educated under New Labour do badly on the test, while previous generations do a lot better.
The old have more wisdom than the young shock. Nothing new there.
When I speak to older people I'm often struck by how many say their school days were a waste of time for them, they hated it and the teachers couldn't wait to get rid of them. In some cases they've educated themselves as adults to a reasonable level. A golden age of education? Not convinced.
I'm not saying it was a golden age of education. I'm saying it was a basic age of education. Seriously, not knowing that Florence Nightingale was a nurse, or that stonehenge was the stone age site, or that St David is the patron saint of Wales? These are basic facts that I knew at 14. And that's before you get to the truly idiotic questions like "True or false: there are language variations across the UK" or "True of false: British values are based on history and tradition"...
The purpose of our education system is not to produce good citizens, it is to produce individuals who have the skills that will help enhance economic growth in the future. That much has been clear for some time. How will knowing who Florence Nightingale is or what Stonehenge represents help with that?
Ray says: "The market for my skills dried up 10 years ago - there's a total lack of work in my area of expertise."
The couple share their home with six of their children - their five-year-old son, Raymond's twin girls from his first marriage, and three of his wife's four children from an earlier relationship.
Call me old fashioned, but one would have thought being responsible for that many kids would have motivated him to retrain. He's had a decade to think about what to do...
Given a pack of 20 costs about 8 quid, that's 80 per week on cigs..
Bloody hell.
Not to mention another £17 or thereabouts for 50 gms of hand-rolling tobacco and you're up to almost a hundred quid per week ...... all up in smoke!
Multiply the total by the number of smokers on the dole.
But Mr Cameron did [edited] co-call the referendum and have significant input into the questions: google Edinburgh Agreement. And he is head of the party with the most money in the Better Together consortium. A fair bit of responsibility there, above all refusing devo-max - which will be seen as the critical error if there is a Yes.
Ray says: "The market for my skills dried up 10 years ago - there's a total lack of work in my area of expertise."
The couple share their home with six of their children - their five-year-old son, Raymond's twin girls from his first marriage, and three of his wife's four children from an earlier relationship.
Call me old fashioned, but one would have thought being responsible for that many kids would have motivated him to retrain. He's had a decade to think about what to do...
Given a pack of 20 costs about 8 quid, that's 80 per week on cigs..
Bloody hell.
Not to mention another £17 or thereabouts for 50 gms of hand-rolling tobacco and you're up to almost a hundred quid per week ...... all up in smoke!
Multiply the total by the number of smokers on the dole.
Much of which, however, comes back to the Chancellor as tax, if that makes any difference to you.
A little embarrassing for the local MPs. I think we all know which end of the local pay scale Ed, Rosie and Caroline are at. Interesting how Labour MPs are so much better at getting rich themselves than they are at enriching their constituents.
" it found that the employment and pay situation in Doncaster was among the worst in the whole of the country.
cities with the number of low-paid workers showing the greatest gap from highly-paid workers. "
maybe when other parties offer them something worth having.
The corollary of the position is when will the conservatives start making real in roads in to the difficulties of the low paid instead of shovelling in immigrants and giving subsidies and tax cuts to the well off ?
The world has changed and 20the century solutions are no longer applicable to 21st century problems.
Yes the UK could ban all non-EU immigrants who do not have a degree or similar, but that would not solve the problem of EU immigrants who have gained a EU-country nationality and so come to the UK under that guise.
The UK could disqualify any non-EU immigrants for UK benefits unless they have at least 5 years of paying Tax and NI.
The UK could reduce its benefit levels to those of the lowest EU country and so certain immigrants would not target the UK so much.
However, no government can create jobs that are competitive globally without at the same time improving both the UK's education standards and the personal and professional aspiration that we had over 50 years ago.
None of these will happen whilst we have a coalition HMG with the weepy LDs moderating all useful progress in this area.
You aren't going to get a conservative government while Cameron and co are unable to appeal to a large slice of aspirational voters who want to see the work rewarded but instead see system is cheating them. With lots of breaks and subsidies for the well off and immigration and benefits making them look mugs for playing by the rules.
Cameron hasn't worked out that a factory worker's vote is equal to a banker's, he's just not very good at politics.
Which breaks and subsidies for the well off?
How would you restructure immigration and benefits?
Life as a backbench MP in the current Conservative Party, no wonder so many are leaving
"Another 2010 backbencher, also unhappy with their lot, says: “We are all fed up of telling the leadership this policy won’t work, being told we’re amateurs, and the Government U-turning later
That culture of ignoring the so-called amateurs makes the party seem as petty as a secondary school.
Indeed, one MP who is leaving says: “I’ve spent my whole life running away from and proving wrong those kids at school who were unpleasant and arrogant. Then I arrived in Parliament and found they were at the top of my party.” Fine if the cool kids want you in their inner circle, but if they look down their noses at you, why not head back to the private sector where people are a little more grown-up? "
Ray says: "The market for my skills dried up 10 years ago - there's a total lack of work in my area of expertise."
The couple share their home with six of their children - their five-year-old son, Raymond's twin girls from his first marriage, and three of his wife's four children from an earlier relationship.
Call me old fashioned, but one would have thought being responsible for that many kids would have motivated him to retrain. He's had a decade to think about what to do...
Given a pack of 20 costs about 8 quid, that's 80 per week on cigs..
Bloody hell.
Not to mention another £17 or thereabouts for 50 gms of hand-rolling tobacco and you're up to almost a hundred quid per week ...... all up in smoke!
Multiply the total by the number of smokers on the dole.
Much of which, however, comes back to the Chancellor as tax, if that makes any difference to you.
You're happy for someone on benefits to hose £5000 a year on beer, fags and SKY?
I wonder if any of the PB cheerleaders of the PPEocrachy could explain how allowing unlimited immigration from the poorest parts of Europe to one of the poorest districts in one of the poorest boroughs of England benefits this country ?
It is not the job of the government to maximise the welfare of any particular individuals. It is the government's job to allow individuals to do what they want so long as they are not breaking any laws.
Voters won't accept that.
They might, Mr. F., they might if a party actually came along and offered it.
Surely the first sentence, "It is not the job of the government to maximise the welfare of any particular individuals" is unobjectionable. The provision of a welfare safety net, health service and so forth is compatible with the statement as is taxing those earning to pay for it. No government of this country has ever sought to maximise the welfare of particular individuals. It is the second sentence that is controversial.
Outside intellectual circles there's no market for a mass libertarian party.
Just not enough autistic people.
Of course plenty of third world countries have no rule of law , functioning state...
Life as a backbench MP in the current Conservative Party, no wonder so many are leaving
"Another 2010 backbencher, also unhappy with their lot, says: “We are all fed up of telling the leadership this policy won’t work, being told we’re amateurs, and the Government U-turning later
That culture of ignoring the so-called amateurs makes the party seem as petty as a secondary school.
Indeed, one MP who is leaving says: “I’ve spent my whole life running away from and proving wrong those kids at school who were unpleasant and arrogant. Then I arrived in Parliament and found they were at the top of my party.” Fine if the cool kids want you in their inner circle, but if they look down their noses at you, why not head back to the private sector where people are a little more grown-up? "
Don't know if anyone else is a Nirvana fan, but that last quote from the leaving MP is what Kurt Cobain was singing about in the song "School"
Cobain had spent his whole life wanting out of his wood chopping nothing hometown of Aberdeen, and the cliques of high school. The bohemian town of Olympia, Seattle was where he thought the outsiders came together and there would be a music community, but the same cliques existed there
"Wouldn't you believe it just my luck You're at high school again, NO RECESS!"
Ray says: "The market for my skills dried up 10 years ago - there's a total lack of work in my area of expertise."
The couple share their home with six of their children - their five-year-old son, Raymond's twin girls from his first marriage, and three of his wife's four children from an earlier relationship.
Call me old fashioned, but one would have thought being responsible for that many kids would have motivated him to retrain. He's had a decade to think about what to do...
Given a pack of 20 costs about 8 quid, that's 80 per week on cigs..
Bloody hell.
Not to mention another £17 or thereabouts for 50 gms of hand-rolling tobacco and you're up to almost a hundred quid per week ...... all up in smoke!
Smokers tend to smoke the same brand it is rare to find someone who smokes tailor-mades and roll-ups. In fact it is probably unique except for one group - those who like to mix something else in with their smoke. Anyone know the street price of cannabis these days?
Amazingly, the generation educated under New Labour do badly on the test, while previous generations do a lot better.
The old have more wisdom than the young shock. Nothing new there.
When I speak to older people I'm often struck by how many say their school days were a waste of time for them, they hated it and the teachers couldn't wait to get rid of them. In some cases they've educated themselves as adults to a reasonable level. A golden age of education? Not convinced.
I'm not saying it was a golden age of education. I'm saying it was a basic age of education. Seriously, not knowing that Florence Nightingale was a nurse, or that stonehenge was the stone age site, or that St David is the patron saint of Wales? These are basic facts that I knew at 14. And that's before you get to the truly idiotic questions like "True or false: there are language variations across the UK" or "True of false: British values are based on history and tradition"...
Some strike me as quite difficult or just odd. British overseas territories - Falkands and, er...Cyprus? St Helena? Really? Where did textile firms recruit 70 years ago? Who were the main parties in the 18th century? Who succeeded Queen Anne? What was the plague called in 1348? Do we really care if either British-born kids or immigrants know ANY of these answers that I'm quoting? I know Socrates does but really, are these the most important things for new Brits to know?
But Mr Cameron did [edited] co-call the referendum and have significant input into the questions: google Edinburgh Agreement. And he is head of the party with the most money in the Better Together consortium. A fair bit of responsibility there, above all refusing devo-max - which will be seen as the critical error if there is a Yes.
the tactics on Devo Max are one of the things Cameron has done well.
He has stopped Salmond's salami slicing by agreeing to the vote. Since any Devo Max would never be enough and the threat to have an Indyref would be forever waved if he didn't get his way.
Assuming a No then there will be additional powers but of more relevance the rest of the Uk constitutional settlement will also have to be looked at. One of the few positives from the world's most tedious vote.
As if Prison Soap Carswell hasn't done enough damage:
David Cameron could face a leadership challenge from his own backbenches if Scotland votes in favour of independence, as Tory rebels blame him for presiding over the break-up of the Union.
The Independent understands that discussions have already taken place among Tory MPs considering standing a candidate against the Prime Minister if the Yes campaign is triumphant on 18 September.
Ray says: "The market for my skills dried up 10 years ago - there's a total lack of work in my area of expertise."
The couple share their home with six of their children - their five-year-old son, Raymond's twin girls from his first marriage, and three of his wife's four children from an earlier relationship.
Call me old fashioned, but one would have thought being responsible for that many kids would have motivated him to retrain. He's had a decade to think about what to do...
Given a pack of 20 costs about 8 quid, that's 80 per week on cigs..
Bloody hell.
Not to mention another £17 or thereabouts for 50 gms of hand-rolling tobacco and you're up to almost a hundred quid per week ...... all up in smoke!
Multiply the total by the number of smokers on the dole.
Much of which, however, comes back to the Chancellor as tax, if that makes any difference to you.
You're happy for someone on benefits to hose £5000 a year on beer, fags and SKY?
"snides" who played on opinion poll moves when no one was looking...
How frightfully unsporting!
shoildn't you be at the green party conference ?
A question that only someone who has never been to one could ever ask!
I was more interested in offering to buy you a pint since I'm currently based within walking distance of Aston Uni. But I suppose you've caught that softie southerner disease and can't travel past Reading ;-)
Amazingly, the generation educated under New Labour do badly on the test, while previous generations do a lot better.
The old have more wisdom than the young shock. Nothing new there.
When I speak to older people I'm often struck by how many say their school days were a waste of time for them, they hated it and the teachers couldn't wait to get rid of them. In some cases they've educated themselves as adults to a reasonable level. A golden age of education? Not convinced.
I'm not saying it was a golden age of education. I'm saying it was a basic age of education. Seriously, not knowing that Florence Nightingale was a nurse, or that stonehenge was the stone age site, or that St David is the patron saint of Wales? These are basic facts that I knew at 14. And that's before you get to the truly idiotic questions like "True or false: there are language variations across the UK" or "True of false: British values are based on history and tradition"...
The purpose of our education system is not to produce good citizens, it is to produce individuals who have the skills that will help enhance economic growth in the future. That much has been clear for some time. How will knowing who Florence Nightingale is or what Stonehenge represents help with that?
This strikes me as a very generational thing- how much Gradgrindian "facts" are valued as opposed to skills or understanding.
This is why I always found it strange how Gove talked about "factual" subjects to mean "hard" subjects. Maths is actually one of the least fact-based subjects around.
If you want proof of that, then think about which parts of the mathematics curriculum could not, in theory, be taught entirely through directed questioning. Notation couldn't. Naming of things like trigonometric functions couldn't. But I think pretty much everything else can. Calculus is a good example of something that could quite easily be taught entirely through prompting people down the right avenues of thought with questions alone.
To me, that's a pretty convincing argument that the subject has little to do with teaching "facts", because if you can teach with just questions, then the student must already know those facts. No amount of questioning could lead to a student who hadn't heard of Florence Nightingale or the Battle of Hastings suddenly producing the relevant facts about them. What you're teaching in mathematics is understanding, and the skill of applying that understanding quickly and accurately.
Well of course they shouldn't and perhaps the Conservatives in government would acre to explain their re-adoption of the European Arrest Warrant that made it possible. Mind you, I hope the family sue the arse off the idiot in Hampshire Police who actually took out the warrant.
In defence of the police the parents disappeared with a seriously ill child, not having advised anyone that they could fully care for him.
A little embarrassing for the local MPs. I think we all know which end of the local pay scale Ed, Rosie and Caroline are at. Interesting how Labour MPs are so much better at getting rich themselves than they are at enriching their constituents.
The town was ranked bottom of a list of more than 60 UK towns and cities with the number of low-paid workers showing the greatest gap from highly-paid workers. "
This will be an increasing trend in the UK and Western Europe, as the market for the uneducated and underskilled/unskilled workers becomes more competitive on a global scale and as increasing technology reduces the number of available jobs for such people.
When will such people stop voting Labour?
When they, I suggest it will not be to vote Tory. It’s obvious, to them at any rate, that the Tories will only perpetuate the situation and indeed probably make it worse. At the moment Labour might improve it.
I think UKIP are a more likely alternative, but even then, after so many years of voting Labour with little to no gain one does wonder what drives people to keep hammering away at the same failed idea. To me Labour's policy goal is the ensure that there are enough people on the public payroll and enough people trapped on welfare to vote against any party which wants to reduce the size of the state. That has always been Labour's primary goal as I see it. Back in 2005 the cuts proposed by Michael Howard were a complete joke, spending would have risen from 2005-2009 by around 2.2% per year, but this was characterised as cuts so bad that half the public sector would find itself out of work and anyone on benefits would be out on the street so Labour scraped the popular vote based on those two vote banks.
As I said, it is interesting and depressing that people who find themselves in areas of poverty and deprivation keep voting the same way and expect a different outcome compared to the last 40 years. There was some constituency in the north that had 80% public sector employment and it was also one of the poorest, it doesn't take a genius to work out what the problem is.
I know this thread has moved on but the old Doncaster seat was held by the Tories from 1951 to 1964. According to Wikipedia “the area formerly covered by this constituency is now mostly in the Doncaster Central and Doncaster North constituencies.”
The experience of having a Tory CotE as MP appears to have soured them for generations!
I wonder if any of the PB cheerleaders of the PPEocrachy could explain how allowing unlimited immigration from the poorest parts of Europe to one of the poorest districts in one of the poorest boroughs of England benefits this country ?
It is not the job of the government to maximise the welfare of any particular individuals. It is the government's job to allow individuals to do what they want so long as they are not breaking any laws.
Voters won't accept that.
They might, Mr. F., they might if a party actually came along and offered it.
Surely the first sentence, "It is not the job of the government to maximise the welfare of any particular individuals" is unobjectionable. The provision of a welfare safety net, health service and so forth is compatible with the statement as is taxing those earning to pay for it. No government of this country has ever sought to maximise the welfare of particular individuals. It is the second sentence that is controversial.
Outside intellectual circles there's no market for a mass libertarian party.
Just not enough autistic people.
Of course plenty of third world countries have no rule of law , functioning state...
Yes, I'd be reluctant to call reddit an "intellectual circle"
Cameron's biggest problem in the event of a Yes vote is that Whitehall has purposefully done NO preparation for that eventuality. If there was a fair amount of chaos he'd have a fair bit of explaining to do.
Ray says: "The market for my skills dried up 10 years ago - there's a total lack of work in my area of expertise."
The couple share their home with six of their children - their five-year-old son, Raymond's twin girls from his first marriage, and three of his wife's four children from an earlier relationship.
Call me old fashioned, but one would have thought being responsible for that many kids would have motivated him to retrain. He's had a decade to think about what to do...
Given a pack of 20 costs about 8 quid, that's 80 per week on cigs..
Bloody hell.
Not to mention another £17 or thereabouts for 50 gms of hand-rolling tobacco and you're up to almost a hundred quid per week ...... all up in smoke!
Multiply the total by the number of smokers on the dole.
Much of which, however, comes back to the Chancellor as tax, if that makes any difference to you.
You're happy for someone on benefits to hose £5000 a year on beer, fags and SKY?
Ray says: "The market for my skills dried up 10 years ago - there's a total lack of work in my area of expertise."
The couple share their home with six of their children - their five-year-old son, Raymond's twin girls from his first marriage, and three of his wife's four children from an earlier relationship.
Call me old fashioned, but one would have thought being responsible for that many kids would have motivated him to retrain. He's had a decade to think about what to do...
Given a pack of 20 costs about 8 quid, that's 80 per week on cigs..
Bloody hell.
Not to mention another £17 or thereabouts for 50 gms of hand-rolling tobacco and you're up to almost a hundred quid per week ...... all up in smoke!
If Boris has serious trouble even to be selected in Uxbridge, why people think he has a chance of winning in Clacton where he is even less popular.
Boris wont go for Clacton, its a seat he can't win and he risks staying out of parliament, he wouldn't ruin his career because someone has put a bet on him standing in Clacton. (This thread has made me suspicious that OGH has put a bet on Boris for Clacton and he is pushing for him to stand to win the bet)
Cameron's biggest problem in the event of a Yes vote is that Whitehall has purposefully done NO preparation for that eventuality. If there was a fair amount of chaos he'd have a fair bit of explaining to do.
I'll bet a significant number of the supposed Conservative MPs arguing for Cameron's resignation if Scotland votes no are well aligned with those who in other conversation express the view that England would be better off without Scotland and are actively agitating for EVFEL, scrapping the Barnett formula and are also pretty negative about further devolution.
Basically they're just looking for an excuse to cause trouble.
Well of course they shouldn't and perhaps the Conservatives in government would acre to explain their re-adoption of the European Arrest Warrant that made it possible. Mind you, I hope the family sue the arse off the idiot in Hampshire Police who actually took out the warrant.
In defence of the police the parents disappeared with a seriously ill child, not having advised anyone that they could fully care for him.
If there was no arrest warrant would the family have been traced any quicker or slower? The police do have other ways of working other than arresting everyone. Cut it anyway you like that arrest was unlawful.
If Boris has serious trouble even to be selected in Uxbridge, why people think he has a chance of winning in Clacton where he is even less popular.
Boris wont go for Clacton, its a seat he can't win and he risks staying out of parliament, he wouldn't ruin his career because someone has put a bet on him standing in Clacton.
Such thorny strategic implications show why Carswell's defection is Ed Miliband's Christmases come all at once.
But Mr Cameron did [edited] co-call the referendum and have significant input into the questions: google Edinburgh Agreement. And he is head of the party with the most money in the Better Together consortium. A fair bit of responsibility there, above all refusing devo-max - which will be seen as the critical error if there is a Yes.
the tactics on Devo Max are one of the things Cameron has done well.
He has stopped Salmond's salami slicing by agreeing to the vote. Since any Devo Max would never be enough and the threat to have an Indyref would be forever waved if he didn't get his way.
Assuming a No then there will be additional powers but of more relevance the rest of the Uk constitutional settlement will also have to be looked at. One of the few positives from the world's most tedious vote.
Surely Mr C didn't stop the slicing by agreeing to the vote per se. Rather, he deliberately suppressed devomax, the option that Mr S did not want, but which would have been most popular by a long shot, failing a total disaster by the unionist side. (Indeed, salami slicing was far more of a Labour Party strategy in the years leading to the Edinburgh Agreement: devolution, Calman commission, etc.).
Anyway, we'll soon find if his decision to risk the whole sausage was the right one!
Cameron's biggest problem in the event of a Yes vote is that Whitehall has purposefully done NO preparation for that eventuality. If there was a fair amount of chaos he'd have a fair bit of explaining to do.
Your proof being?
Or is it simply a big assumption?
Because he and his colleagues say so. Ergo, he's either got a real problem as above, or he's talking porkies about a very sensitive issue with real implications.
Cameron's biggest problem in the event of a Yes vote is that Whitehall has purposefully done NO preparation for that eventuality. If there was a fair amount of chaos he'd have a fair bit of explaining to do.
I'm sure Richard Nabavi will be along in a moment to say how mass government spying of this stuff is nothing to worry about. We have an independent commissioner, appointed by the PM, don't you know.
But Mr Cameron did [edited] co-call the referendum and have significant input into the questions: google Edinburgh Agreement. And he is head of the party with the most money in the Better Together consortium. A fair bit of responsibility there, above all refusing devo-max - which will be seen as the critical error if there is a Yes.
the tactics on Devo Max are one of the things Cameron has done well.
He has stopped Salmond's salami slicing by agreeing to the vote. Since any Devo Max would never be enough and the threat to have an Indyref would be forever waved if he didn't get his way.
Assuming a No then there will be additional powers but of more relevance the rest of the Uk constitutional settlement will also have to be looked at. One of the few positives from the world's most tedious vote.
Surely Mr C didn't stop the slicing by agreeing to the vote per se. Rather, he deliberately suppressed devomax, the option that Mr S did not want, but which would have been most popular by a long shot, failing a total disaster by the unionist side. (Indeed, salami slicing was far more of a Labour Party strategy in the years leading to the Edinburgh Agreement: devolution, Calman commission, etc.).
Anyway, we'll soon find if his decision to risk the whole sausage was the right one!
The only way to negotiate a sensible Devo Max is when the Indy bluff has been called. And since that;s what we'll get if it's no then the rUK also gets a say in the settlement. Strikes me Labour could be the big losers in this, though if they're doing the negotiating they'll just screw the whole thing up as usual.
Amazingly, the generation educated under New Labour do badly on the test, while previous generations do a lot better.
The old have more wisdom than the young shock. Nothing new there.
When I speak to older people I'm often struck by how many say their school days were a waste of time for them, they hated it and the teachers couldn't wait to get rid of them. In some cases they've educated themselves as adults to a reasonable level. A golden age of education? Not convinced.
I'm not saying it was a golden age of education. I'm saying it was a basic age of education. Seriously, not knowing that Florence Nightingale was a nurse, or that stonehenge was the stone age site, or that St David is the patron saint of Wales? These are basic facts that I knew at 14. And that's before you get to the truly idiotic questions like "True or false: there are language variations across the UK" or "True of false: British values are based on history and tradition"...
Some strike me as quite difficult or just odd. British overseas territories - Falkands and, er...Cyprus? St Helena? Really? Where did textile firms recruit 70 years ago? Who were the main parties in the 18th century? Who succeeded Queen Anne? What was the plague called in 1348? Do we really care if either British-born kids or immigrants know ANY of these answers that I'm quoting? I know Socrates does but really, are these the most important things for new Brits to know?
It would be far more useful to know that women have the right to equality in law and education, apostasy and Blasphemy are absolutely fine, that British schools teach about all religions and that FGM is treated as child abuse under British law.
More important for integration into British life than what is essentially a pub quiz!
Since very few people seem to agree on what "Devo-max" actually means, it is silly to say that it should have been an "option" and "will happen anyway". It's all a dog's breakfast anyway. The more you try and hypothecate certain taxes to individual areas of the UK the more resentment will build up about 'unfairness'. Although as usual there will be no agreement about who is being treated unfairly.
This strikes me as a very generational thing- how much Gradgrindian "facts" are valued as opposed to skills or understanding.
This is why I always found it strange how Gove talked about "factual" subjects to mean "hard" subjects. Maths is actually one of the least fact-based subjects around.
If you want proof of that, then think about which parts of the mathematics curriculum could not, in theory, be taught entirely through directed questioning. Notation couldn't. Naming of things like trigonometric functions couldn't. But I think pretty much everything else can. Calculus is a good example of something that could quite easily be taught entirely through prompting people down the right avenues of thought with questions alone.
To me, that's a pretty convincing argument that the subject has little to do with teaching "facts", because if you can teach with just questions, then the student must already know those facts. No amount of questioning could lead to a student who hadn't heard of Florence Nightingale or the Battle of Hastings suddenly producing the relevant facts about them. What you're teaching in mathematics is understanding, and the skill of applying that understanding quickly and accurately.
But societal understanding is impossible in the absence of "facts". It's like trying to teach people chemistry, without them knowing about what the basic elements or their properties are. The skills versus knowledge distinction is an entirely foolish one that could only be approved by someone who had lots of conceptual understanding but had never learned about reality.
Cameron's biggest problem in the event of a Yes vote is that Whitehall has purposefully done NO preparation for that eventuality. If there was a fair amount of chaos he'd have a fair bit of explaining to do.
Your proof being?
Or is it simply a big assumption?
“Ministers have said no contingency planning,” Sir Jeremy replied flatly. “Effectively, the government is very confident it’s going to win the argument on this, but in the end it’s a matter for the people of Scotland to decide.” But the Scottish civil service will be planning quite carefully – probably for both eventualities: won’t the UK government be at a disadvantage in any subsequent negotiations? “I don’t believe so, no, because I think we’ll have whatever time is needed to respond to the outcome,” Heywood replied. “But as I say, this is a matter for the Scottish people.”
But Mr Cameron did [edited] co-call the referendum and have significant input into the questions: google Edinburgh Agreement. And he is head of the party with the most money in the Better Together consortium. A fair bit of responsibility there, above all refusing devo-max - which will be seen as the critical error if there is a Yes.
the tactics on Devo Max are one of the things Cameron has done well.
He has stopped Salmond's salami slicing by agreeing to the vote. Since any Devo Max would never be enough and the threat to have an Indyref would be forever waved if he didn't get his way.
Assuming a No then there will be additional powers but of more relevance the rest of the Uk constitutional settlement will also have to be looked at. One of the few positives from the world's most tedious vote.
No, it was stupid. Devomax is coming anyway (even if it is NO). Because the Scots clearly want it, and, moreover it is in the interests of everyone, taxpayers north and south that Scotland mostly pays its own way and England no longer has Scots MPs voting on English laws.
By the time any new referendum call came round the oil would be gone.
Even better, Devomax scuttles the Labour Party in Westminster. Win win for Cameron. Yet he refused it?
A truly terrible politician. Split the right, lost the boundary changes, and might preside over the Dissolution of the Nation.
Don't agree, you Yarg eating surrender monkey.
You have to establish the base line. Roll over and give Salmond everything he wants and he'll just be back in a couple of years with a new list and threatening to hold a referendum. It's Sinn Fein and the peace process all over again - if we don't get X then it may turn violent.
"snides" who played on opinion poll moves when no one was looking...
How frightfully unsporting!
shoildn't you be at the green party conference ?
A question that only someone who has never been to one could ever ask!
I was more interested in offering to buy you a pint since I'm currently based within walking distance of Aston Uni. But I suppose you've caught that softie southerner disease and can't travel past Reading ;-)
Too much time spent with John O.
I'm actually in the middle of planning a tour of the country for work. I'll be going from Aberdeen to Plymouth and most places in between. Mind you that could be two countries by then...
Cameron's biggest problem in the event of a Yes vote is that Whitehall has purposefully done NO preparation for that eventuality. If there was a fair amount of chaos he'd have a fair bit of explaining to do.
Your proof being?
Or is it simply a big assumption?
Because he and his colleagues say so.
Would you expect them to say otherwise?
From their own purely party political point of view, no, especially as it has enabled them to generate uncertainty about the implications of a Yes and then project that onto the Yes campaign.
But the Tories and LDs are also running the UK and it reflects on their competence. Saying it just gets people increasingly worried just in case it could be true as the polls narrow. A bit of a headbanger approach to contingencies, which makes them look very incompetent if a Yes vote does happen, and even if there is a significant risk of one, which is where we are at (as SeanT pointed out months ago).
Amazingly, the generation educated under New Labour do badly on the test, while previous generations do a lot better.
The old have more wisdom than the young shock. Nothing new there.
When I speak to older people I'm often struck by how many say their school days were a waste of time for them, they hated it and the teachers couldn't wait to get rid of them. In some cases they've educated themselves as adults to a reasonable level. A golden age of education? Not convinced.
I'm not saying it was a golden age of education. I'm saying it was a basic age of education. Seriously, not knowing that Florence Nightingale was a nurse, or that stonehenge was the stone age site, or that St David is the patron saint of Wales? These are basic facts that I knew at 14. And that's before you get to the truly idiotic questions like "True or false: there are language variations across the UK" or "True of false: British values are based on history and tradition"...
Some strike me as quite difficult or just odd. British overseas territories - Falkands and, er...Cyprus? St Helena? Really? Where did textile firms recruit 70 years ago? Who were the main parties in the 18th century? Who succeeded Queen Anne? What was the plague called in 1348? Do we really care if either British-born kids or immigrants know ANY of these answers that I'm quoting? I know Socrates does but really, are these the most important things for new Brits to know?
No, they're not the most important things for Brits to know. But they are hints of whether you have a deeper knowledge of the evolution of the British state and society. The way you form a common nation is for everyone to have an understanding that we're all part of the same community with the same intellectual roots and heritage. You on the left entirely dismiss this, preferring immigrants to learn how they can best claim benefits instead, and then seem surprised when civic society declines and people feel alienated from one another. Or, you know, when large swathes of Britain come close to declaring independence.
This strikes me as a very generational thing- how much Gradgrindian "facts" are valued as opposed to skills or understanding.
This is why I always found it strange how Gove talked about "factual" subjects to mean "hard" subjects. Maths is actually one of the least fact-based subjects around.
If you want proof of that, then think about which parts of the mathematics curriculum could not, in theory, be taught entirely through directed questioning. Notation couldn't. Naming of things like trigonometric functions couldn't. But I think pretty much everything else can. Calculus is a good example of something that could quite easily be taught entirely through prompting people down the right avenues of thought with questions alone.
To me, that's a pretty convincing argument that the subject has little to do with teaching "facts", because if you can teach with just questions, then the student must already know those facts. No amount of questioning could lead to a student who hadn't heard of Florence Nightingale or the Battle of Hastings suddenly producing the relevant facts about them. What you're teaching in mathematics is understanding, and the skill of applying that understanding quickly and accurately.
As mathematics is my first love, I have considerable sympathy for your argument. However, may I suggest that your argument that mathematics may be entirely taught from directed questioning is based on the same fallacy that Whitehead and Russell sought to prove that all of mathematics can be reduced to axioms. Godel blew that idea out of the water. In teaching mathematics at some point one has to be didactic.
Amazingly, the generation educated under New Labour do badly on the test, while previous generations do a lot better.
The old have more wisdom than the young shock. Nothing new there.
When I speak to older people I'm often struck by how many say their school days were a waste of time for them, they hated it and the teachers couldn't wait to get rid of them. In some cases they've educated themselves as adults to a reasonable level. A golden age of education? Not convinced.
I'm not saying it was a golden age of education. I'm saying it was a basic age of education. Seriously, not knowing that Florence Nightingale was a nurse, or that stonehenge was the stone age site, or that St David is the patron saint of Wales? These are basic facts that I knew at 14. And that's before you get to the truly idiotic questions like "True or false: there are language variations across the UK" or "True of false: British values are based on history and tradition"...
The purpose of our education system is not to produce good citizens, it is to produce individuals who have the skills that will help enhance economic growth in the future. That much has been clear for some time. How will knowing who Florence Nightingale is or what Stonehenge represents help with that?
The point of our education system is not to produce good citizens? I'm sorry, but that seems like a highly short-sighted and stupid view. There is more to life than just economic growth.
Cameron's biggest problem in the event of a Yes vote is that Whitehall has purposefully done NO preparation for that eventuality. If there was a fair amount of chaos he'd have a fair bit of explaining to do.
Your proof being?
Or is it simply a big assumption?
“Ministers have said no contingency planning,” Sir Jeremy replied flatly. “Effectively, the government is very confident it’s going to win the argument on this, but in the end it’s a matter for the people of Scotland to decide.” But the Scottish civil service will be planning quite carefully – probably for both eventualities: won’t the UK government be at a disadvantage in any subsequent negotiations? “I don’t believe so, no, because I think we’ll have whatever time is needed to respond to the outcome,” Heywood replied. “But as I say, this is a matter for the Scottish people.”
Pretty clear that he doesn't think there's a problem.
Would I be surprised if Civil Serpents hadn't been quietly dusting off, and reading up on the contingency plans already in existence from previous skirmishes with independence? If only as 'training exercises'. No.
Some strike me as quite difficult or just odd. British overseas territories - Falkands and, er...Cyprus? St Helena? Really? Where did textile firms recruit 70 years ago? Who were the main parties in the 18th century? Who succeeded Queen Anne? What was the plague called in 1348? Do we really care if either British-born kids or immigrants know ANY of these answers that I'm quoting? I know Socrates does but really, are these the most important things for new Brits to know?
It would be far more useful to know that women have the right to equality in law and education, apostasy and Blasphemy are absolutely fine, that British schools teach about all religions and that FGM is treated as child abuse under British law.
More important for integration into British life than what is essentially a pub quiz!
Cameron's biggest problem in the event of a Yes vote is that Whitehall has purposefully done NO preparation for that eventuality. If there was a fair amount of chaos he'd have a fair bit of explaining to do.
Your proof being?
Or is it simply a big assumption?
“Ministers have said no contingency planning,” Sir Jeremy replied flatly. “Effectively, the government is very confident it’s going to win the argument on this, but in the end it’s a matter for the people of Scotland to decide.” But the Scottish civil service will be planning quite carefully – probably for both eventualities: won’t the UK government be at a disadvantage in any subsequent negotiations? “I don’t believe so, no, because I think we’ll have whatever time is needed to respond to the outcome,” Heywood replied. “But as I say, this is a matter for the Scottish people.”
Can't believe that it hasn't been talked about at least off the record between both the tories and labour. Maybe not in No10 directly, but in dusty smoke filled rooms over a glass of port I bet it has.
But societal understanding is impossible in the absence of "facts". It's like trying to teach people chemistry, without them knowing about what the basic elements or their properties are. The skills versus knowledge distinction is an entirely foolish one that could only be approved by someone who had lots of conceptual understanding but had never learned about reality.
OK, let's be specific. I don't know who succeeded Queen Anne. In what way does this reduce my societal understanding? If you tell me who it was, how will that improve matters?
"In the past few days these concepts of trust and anger have been to the fore as I think about Nigel Farage after many years of friendship and support on my part. Hatred is not part of my nature, anger I admit is there. The loss of trust is irreplaceable. Can anyone really trust him? Would you really sign a treaty with this man?
I have met people with whom I totally and passionately disagree, but there is a degree of trust because I know where they stand. What do I think of Farage? Well it now seems that he has replaced democracy with his casting couch. Apparently if you fit the bill he will slip you into the position of his choice. Now that Douglas Carswell is Nigel’s bitch, he will perpetually be picking up the political equivalent of prison soap. Trust me on that one."
But societal understanding is impossible in the absence of "facts". It's like trying to teach people chemistry, without them knowing about what the basic elements or their properties are. The skills versus knowledge distinction is an entirely foolish one that could only be approved by someone who had lots of conceptual understanding but had never learned about reality.
OK, let's be specific. I don't know who succeeded Queen Anne. In what way does this reduce my societal understanding? If you tell me who it was, how will that improve matters?
Well i suppose it makes you impervious to the tiresome jokes about our "German" monarchy.
The question about Whigs and Tories vs Conservatives and Liberals was rather bizarre though.
If Boris has serious trouble even to be selected in Uxbridge, why people think he has a chance of winning in Clacton where he is even less popular.
Boris wont go for Clacton, its a seat he can't win and he risks staying out of parliament, he wouldn't ruin his career because someone has put a bet on him standing in Clacton. (This thread has made me suspicious that OGH has put a bet on Boris for Clacton and he is pushing for him to stand to win the bet)
Boris has spent 6 years arguing for the closure of the biggest employer within Uxbridge. Its hardly surprising that the local Conservatives may take anyone else....
Comments
http://i100.independent.co.uk/article/can-you-pass-a-uk-citizenship-test-most-young-people-cant--gJ0v-H6BQx
Amazingly, the generation educated under New Labour do badly on the test, while previous generations do a lot better.
'Tis a shame Sporting has not as yet entered the 2015 GE fray with the daddy of them all - spreads on the number of seats won by each of the major parties. Perhaps IG will return for a one night extravaganza to show them how it should be done.
1. Mr. Smithson is absolutely panting that Boris fails in Uxbridge and then plumps for Clacton in the hope of halting the UKIP bandwagon. No matter how much Mike S. has staked on this probable outcome, I believe that Boris would lose if he stood for Clapton in such conditions. Not only would he lose, but his name would be tarnished in politics, perhaps forever, and thats why he won't do it.
2. Good win for UKIP in Folkestone Harvey Central last night.
27.9% #UKIP (+27.9 since 2011)
21.7% CON (-17.3)
19.2% LDEM (+2.3)
19.0% LAB (-9.1)
12.1% OTH
3...and lastly the ghastly.....
Saif Rahman @SaifRRahman
"Kuffars In The Grave"
A Little Poem by a young Muslim in today's apologist Britain..
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=229_1407616814#rce2eb1JdfmmtJOD.99 …
A pretty little song.
The couple share their home with six of their children - their five-year-old son, Raymond's twin girls from his first marriage, and three of his wife's four children from an earlier relationship.
Call me old fashioned, but one would have thought being responsible for that many kids would have motivated him to retrain. He's had a decade to think about what to do...
My wife feels the same, she being fairly natural Labour supporter and hates the Tories.
Might I suggest that, "... aspirational voters who want to see the work rewarded but instead see system is cheating them ..." is a large chunk of the reason why UKIP is on the rise.
If there is a NO vote, and Eck slinks away to enjoy his multiple taxpayer funded pensions in obscurity, will we see lots of posts from these people saying that actually Cameron might just know what he's about after all?
I am however in the camp that says Cameron should get off his arse and start doing more to engage with voters in N England and Scotland. And that he should resign if he can't start winning some more votes from them.
When I speak to older people I'm often struck by how many say their school days were a waste of time for them, they hated it and the teachers couldn't wait to get rid of them. In some cases they've educated themselves as adults to a reasonable level. A golden age of education? Not convinced.
The reason these markets arent offered constantly has a lot to do with the fact that the only people that bet on them were "snides" who played on opinion poll moves when no one was looking...
The thing is he worked in IT and the one thing I can safely say after 25 years of working in IT, is that unless you keep up with current trends you will be left behind. But its not difficult to keep up with current trends.
How would you restructure immigration and benefits?
pouch of tobacco'
Clearly too pissed to retrain.
Bloody hell.
Ashya King's parents should not have been locked up in a foreign country for caring about their child http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/ashya-kings-parents-should-not-have-been-locked-up-in-a-foreign-country-for-caring-about-their-child-9712651.html …
As for Cameron, he surely must resign in the event of a Yes vote-any other decision would be based on unethical inauthenticity,an act of bad faith.Knowing his character up to now,it is likely he will need to be pushed as the only reason he wanted to be PM because he thinks he would be quite good at it.A Yes vote will put the kibosh on that delusion.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/scottish-independence-salmond-has-momentum--we-may-have-a-new-pm-9712620.html
The smokes alone would save them over 5000 a year. Wonder if they have tattoos, and if these were paid for by the tax payer.
Compare and contrast with this guy...
ftwestminster: Salmond: I won’t resign if Scots vote no http://t.co/mDbyqpzXe7
"Another 2010 backbencher, also unhappy with their lot, says: “We are all fed up of telling the leadership this policy won’t work, being told we’re amateurs, and the Government U-turning later
That culture of ignoring the so-called amateurs makes the party seem as petty as a secondary school.
Indeed, one MP who is leaving says: “I’ve spent my whole life running away from and proving wrong those kids at school who were unpleasant and arrogant. Then I arrived in Parliament and found they were at the top of my party.” Fine if the cool kids want you in their inner circle, but if they look down their noses at you, why not head back to the private sector where people are a little more grown-up? "
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/11075320/Were-losing-the-wrong-sort-of-MPs-the-oneswith-most-to-give.html
We use Freeview and get more than enough films with Film 4, MovieMax etc
Very amusing.
Of course plenty of third world countries have no rule of law , functioning state...
Cobain had spent his whole life wanting out of his wood chopping nothing hometown of Aberdeen, and the cliques of high school. The bohemian town of Olympia, Seattle was where he thought the outsiders came together and there would be a music community, but the same cliques existed there
"Wouldn't you believe it just my luck
You're at high school again,
NO RECESS!"
He has stopped Salmond's salami slicing by agreeing to the vote. Since any Devo Max would never be enough and the threat to have an Indyref would be forever waved if he didn't get his way.
Assuming a No then there will be additional powers but of more relevance the rest of the Uk constitutional settlement will also have to be looked at. One of the few positives from the world's most tedious vote.
Too much time spent with John O.
This is why I always found it strange how Gove talked about "factual" subjects to mean "hard" subjects. Maths is actually one of the least fact-based subjects around.
If you want proof of that, then think about which parts of the mathematics curriculum could not, in theory, be taught entirely through directed questioning. Notation couldn't. Naming of things like trigonometric functions couldn't. But I think pretty much everything else can. Calculus is a good example of something that could quite easily be taught entirely through prompting people down the right avenues of thought with questions alone.
To me, that's a pretty convincing argument that the subject has little to do with teaching "facts", because if you can teach with just questions, then the student must already know those facts. No amount of questioning could lead to a student who hadn't heard of Florence Nightingale or the Battle of Hastings suddenly producing the relevant facts about them. What you're teaching in mathematics is understanding, and the skill of applying that understanding quickly and accurately.
The experience of having a Tory CotE as MP appears to have soured them for generations!
Boris wont go for Clacton, its a seat he can't win and he risks staying out of parliament, he wouldn't ruin his career because someone has put a bet on him standing in Clacton.
(This thread has made me suspicious that OGH has put a bet on Boris for Clacton and he is pushing for him to stand to win the bet)
Or is it simply a big assumption?
Basically they're just looking for an excuse to cause trouble.
Anyway, we'll soon find if his decision to risk the whole sausage was the right one!
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/sep/03/met-journalist-phone-records-sun-political-editor-plebgate
I'm sure Richard Nabavi will be along in a moment to say how mass government spying of this stuff is nothing to worry about. We have an independent commissioner, appointed by the PM, don't you know.
More important for integration into British life than what is essentially a pub quiz!
http://www.civilserviceworld.com/articles/interview/interview-sir-jeremy-heywood-and-sir-bob-kerslake
Clear as can be from Heywood.
You have to establish the base line. Roll over and give Salmond everything he wants and he'll just be back in a couple of years with a new list and threatening to hold a referendum. It's Sinn Fein and the peace process all over again - if we don't get X then it may turn violent.
Cameron has played this better than Blair.
But the Tories and LDs are also running the UK and it reflects on their competence. Saying it just gets people increasingly worried just in case it could be true as the polls narrow. A bit of a headbanger approach to contingencies, which makes them look very incompetent if a Yes vote does happen, and even if there is a significant risk of one, which is where we are at (as SeanT pointed out months ago).
Would I be surprised if Civil Serpents hadn't been quietly dusting off, and reading up on the contingency plans already in existence from previous skirmishes with independence? If only as 'training exercises'. No.
P1's done and dusted. McLaren looking tasty, Williams hopefully sandbagging, Mercedes remain on top and Red Bull are a shade off the pace.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/04/nigel-farage-candidate-ukip-clacton-douglas-carswell
"In the past few days these concepts of trust and anger have been to the fore as I think about Nigel Farage after many years of friendship and support on my part. Hatred is not part of my nature, anger I admit is there. The loss of trust is irreplaceable. Can anyone really trust him? Would you really sign a treaty with this man?
I have met people with whom I totally and passionately disagree, but there is a degree of trust because I know where they stand. What do I think of Farage? Well it now seems that he has replaced democracy with his casting couch. Apparently if you fit the bill he will slip you into the position of his choice. Now that Douglas Carswell is Nigel’s bitch, he will perpetually be picking up the political equivalent of prison soap. Trust me on that one."
The question about Whigs and Tories vs Conservatives and Liberals was rather bizarre though.