The pilot who struck the decisive blow against the Bismarck believes that a “yes” vote in Scotland’s independence referendum would be a betrayal of his fallen comrades.
Mr Moffat’s views were echoed by Ms Davidson, who highlighted the humanitarian work of British forces.
She said: “Is it really the case that, on this small island, one which has protected itself so well for centuries, that we are now to divide up our ships, our jets, our troops and our intelligence expertise — all just so Alex Salmond can inspect the troops?
“I cannot and will not stand silent while the reputation of our armed forces, built up for generations, across our national borders, is subject to this kind of nationalist vandalism.”
I am glad to hear he is alive and well. I have his autograph on a piece of Swordfish cloth, with a personal statement from him in his own writing. I bought it at a fundraiser to try to restore the last Fleet Air Arm Swordfish.
A very brave man.
I was there for that and as I said yesterday it was a very good speech. The comment about Salmond getting to inspect the troops was met with derisive laughter in the room.
All of which makes Ed's idiot comments trying to make a party political point about Ruth Davidson's comments that the polls indicated that Ed might very well win the next election all the more depressing.
The man really is a muppet and if he sold snake oil he would give the profession a bad name.
Apparently Lord has just accosted Carswell in the street, and flung his glove at him, shouting "Defiance, traitor, do I hurl in your face. Grant me satisfaction, or be known to all as a poltroon and craven."
Wonder if it were a female MP that defected if it would be ok to describe her as the rohypnol taker?
Well if they had, Roger Helmer would have come out in support of the female MP, or not.
Shame you can only see the partisan view of anything, you look very foolish, and aren't funny
Just shows how people play the man not the ball. Last night @NickPalmer made a remark about how the influence of America was ruining tv interviews.. I am sure there are many different types of American tv hosts, but Nick played on the stereotype. Fair enough, but if someone were to say the same about Pakistanis or Romanians, there would be faux outrage here..
Today people are making comparisons between political defection and child rape.. .its ok because its UKIP, and you are defending an obvious double standard because you are a foolish partisan tory
You're the one who tried to make a partisan point, my point was, UKIP's record when it comes to comments about rape don't always paint the party in a good light.
My point was "would it be ok to call a female defector a rohypnol taker?" How is that partisan?
You are saying that I cant criticise jokes about rape because I vote UKIP and Roger Helmer said something controversial about it??
Not just Roger Helmer, I'm just saying, UKIP can't play the homophobic/sexism card.
Crazy talk
I cant criticise child rape jokes because I vote UKIP? Shows what an idiot you are
Hmm, you appear deeply uncomfortable with the comments by the ex UKIp county councillor and Clacton candidate Roger Lord, even going so far yesterday as to pretend he was actually a Lib Dem – Admittedly his language may not be to everyone’s taste, but personally I find threats to ‘rip out your opponents throat’ and calling him ‘Nigels bitch’ refreshingly honest in PC claustrophobic world. - learn to embrace it ; )
Didn't he challenge Carswell to a duel, at one point last week?
Good point, that more than makes up for the lack of a moustache.
I am sure I once read of a duel in somewhere like Chile or Argentina in the 1970s. One army officer had insulted another by calling him a socialist. The duel was fought with submachine guns, 37 rounds were exchanged and neither party was injured.
If it were Argentina it would explain 1982 rather well.
One has to take into account the gravity of the insult though. Surely the heinous accusation would mean the victim not being able to concentrate on the firing due to emotional turmoil and the accuser ,perhaps out of guilt at committing such an insult perhaps missed deliberately
Wonder if it were a female MP that defected if it would be ok to describe her as the rohypnol taker?
Well if they had, Roger Helmer would have come out in support of the female MP, or not.
Shame you can only see the partisan view of anything, you look very foolish, and aren't funny
Just shows how people play the man not the ball. Last night @NickPalmer made a remark about how the influence of America was ruining tv interviews.. I am sure there are many different types of American tv hosts, but Nick played on the stereotype. Fair enough, but if someone were to say the same about Pakistanis or Romanians, there would be faux outrage here..
Today people are making comparisons between political defection and child rape.. .its ok because its UKIP, and you are defending an obvious double standard because you are a foolish partisan tory
You're the one who tried to make a partisan point, my point was, UKIP's record when it comes to comments about rape don't always paint the party in a good light.
My point was "would it be ok to call a female defector a rohypnol taker?" How is that partisan?
You are saying that I cant criticise jokes about rape because I vote UKIP and Roger Helmer said something controversial about it??
Not just Roger Helmer, I'm just saying, UKIP can't play the homophobic/sexism card.
Crazy talk
I cant criticise child rape jokes because I vote UKIP? Shows what an idiot you are
Hmm, you appear deeply uncomfortable with the comments by the ex UKIp county councillor and Clacton candidate Roger Lord, even going so far yesterday as to pretend he was actually a Lib Dem – Admittedly his language may not be to everyone’s taste, but personally I find threats to ‘rip out your opponents throat’ and calling him ‘Nigels bitch’ refreshingly honest in PC claustrophobic world.
Discomfort that Lord is right, an example of the loons that make up the party, or a combination of the two?
F1: P2 starts in about half an hour. Interesting that McLaren appear in better shape than may have been expected, and that Force India lag. Williams weren't even in the top 10, but I think they're sandbagging. Hope so, anyway.
Next the wolf shall lie with the sheep and the dog will lie with the cat
Iran's Supreme Leader has approved co-operation with the US as part of the fight against Islamic State in northern Iraq, sources have told BBC Persian.
Next the wolf shall lie with the sheep and the dog will lie with the cat
Iran's Supreme Leader has approved co-operation with the US as part of the fight against Islamic State in northern Iraq, sources have told BBC Persian.
My cousin (ref previous post) who I'm visiting for the vote will be the angriest woman in Scotland if it's a YES. (Read tomorrow's letter's to the Guardian re-Mombiot to see what angry looks like!) So obviously I'm predicting a NO and in this instance I'm pretty sure I'm right.
Next the wolf shall lie with the sheep and the dog will lie with the cat
Iran's Supreme Leader has approved co-operation with the US as part of the fight against Islamic State in northern Iraq, sources have told BBC Persian.
There was a debate here about delaying the date of the next UK election etc.
Why can't we just delay the date of the next *Scottish* election until after any settlement has been negotiated ! Is that date not in Westminster's gift?
That way Salmond will have to back up the clouds of hot steam he's been issuing for the last few years, *if* the separatists win.
Apparently Lord has just accosted Carswell in the street, and flung his glove at him, shouting "Defiance, traitor, do I hurl in your face. Grant me satisfaction, or be known to all as a poltroon and craven."
For all those asking about Roger Lord, he resigned his local council seat and now he's supporting the LD's for his local council seat, that says volumes about the man (apart from that Nicaragua thing) The by-election is amusingly on the same day as Clacton, lets see if the LD get 2% in that one as well.
My cousin (ref previous post) who I'm visiting for the vote will be the angriest woman in Scotland if it's a YES. (Read tomorrow's letter's to the Guardian re-Mombiot to see what angry looks like!) So obviously I'm predicting a NO and in this instance I'm pretty sure I'm right.
Next the wolf shall lie with the sheep and the dog will lie with the cat
Iran's Supreme Leader has approved co-operation with the US as part of the fight against Islamic State in northern Iraq, sources have told BBC Persian.
If anything, Labour's vote share seems a touch down this week, compared to last. But, there's also been a shift of about 2% from Conservative to UKIP.
I'm not sure anything has moved at all - what may well happen is that there will be a slow but sure trickle of methodological adjustment (As Populus and Yougov have done) that will nudge UKIP up as the GE is approached.
A fair few moustacheist comments on here again this morning. Come along, chaps, bigotry is bigotry and ugly no matter what form it takes. The fact that a fellow may have the face ornament of a walrus does not imply anything about his political beliefs
Apparently Lord has just accosted Carswell in the street, and flung his glove at him, shouting "Defiance, traitor, do I hurl in your face. Grant me satisfaction, or be known to all as a poltroon and craven."
If anything, Labour's vote share seems a touch down this week, compared to last. But, there's also been a shift of about 2% from Conservative to UKIP.
I'm not sure anything has moved at all - what may well happen is that there will be a slow but sure trickle of methodological adjustment (As Populus and Yougov have done) that will nudge UKIP up as the GE is approached.
The next Sunil on Sunday ELBOW will be published on, er, Sunday
Wonder if it were a female MP that defected if it would be ok to describe her as the rohypnol taker?
Well if they had, Roger Helmer would have come out in support of the female MP, or not.
Shame you can only see the partisan view of anything, you look very foolish, and aren't funny
Just shows how people play the man not the ball. Last night @NickPalmer made a remark about how the influence of America was ruining tv interviews.. I am sure there are many different types of American tv hosts, but Nick played on the stereotype. Fair enough, but if someone were to say the same about Pakistanis or Romanians, there would be faux outrage here..
Today people are making comparisons between political defection and child rape.. .its ok because its UKIP, and you are defending an obvious double standard because you are a foolish partisan tory
You're the one who tried to make a partisan point, my point was, UKIP's record when it comes to comments about rape don't always paint the party in a good light.
My point was "would it be ok to call a female defector a rohypnol taker?" How is that partisan?
You are saying that I cant criticise jokes about rape because I vote UKIP and Roger Helmer said something controversial about it??
Not just Roger Helmer, I'm just saying, UKIP can't play the homophobic/sexism card.
Crazy talk
I cant criticise child rape jokes because I vote UKIP? Shows what an idiot you are
I thought we were talking about you whining about a prison rape joke.
You think its good form to joke about rape? And its whining to criticise it
Wonder if it were a female MP that defected if it would be ok to describe her as the rohypnol taker?
Well if they had, Roger Helmer would have come out in support of the female MP, or not.
Shame you can only see the partisan view of anything, you look very foolish, and aren't funny
Just shows how people play the man not the ball. Last night @NickPalmer made a remark about how the influence of America was ruining tv interviews.. I am sure there are many different types of American tv hosts, but Nick played on the stereotype. Fair enough, but if someone were to say the same about Pakistanis or Romanians, there would be faux outrage here..
Today people are making comparisons between political defection and child rape.. .its ok because its UKIP, and you are defending an obvious double standard because you are a foolish partisan tory
You're the one who tried to make a partisan point, my point was, UKIP's record when it comes to comments about rape don't always paint the party in a good light.
My point was "would it be ok to call a female defector a rohypnol taker?" How is that partisan?
You are saying that I cant criticise jokes about rape because I vote UKIP and Roger Helmer said something controversial about it??
Not just Roger Helmer, I'm just saying, UKIP can't play the homophobic/sexism card.
Crazy talk
I cant criticise child rape jokes because I vote UKIP? Shows what an idiot you are
I thought we were talking about you whining about a prison rape joke.
You think its good form to joke about rape? And its whining to criticise it
This strikes me as a very generational thing- how much Gradgrindian "facts" are valued as opposed to skills or understanding.
This is why I always found it strange how Gove talked about "factual" subjects to mean "hard" subjects. Maths is actually one of the least fact-based subjects around.
If you want proof of that, then think about which parts of the mathematics curriculum could not, in theory, be taught entirely through directed questioning. Notation couldn't. Naming of things like trigonometric functions couldn't. But I think pretty much everything else can. Calculus is a good example of something that could quite easily be taught entirely through prompting people down the right avenues of thought with questions alone.
To me, that's a pretty convincing argument that the subject has little to do with teaching "facts", because if you can teach with just questions, then the student must already know those facts. No amount of questioning could lead to a student who hadn't heard of Florence Nightingale or the Battle of Hastings suddenly producing the relevant facts about them. What you're teaching in mathematics is understanding, and the skill of applying that understanding quickly and accurately.
As mathematics is my first love, I have considerable sympathy for your argument. However, may I suggest that your argument that mathematics may be entirely taught from directed questioning is based on the same fallacy that Whitehead and Russell sought to prove that all of mathematics can be reduced to axioms. Godel blew that idea out of the water. In teaching mathematics at some point one has to be didactic.
Well I'd say we're talking about quite different things there. The mathematics I was talking about being taught is what we learn in school up to A-level. Maybe, at a stretch, you could include undergraduate level too, and at that point perhaps it becomes a bit blurrier.
Up to that point, I don't think there'd be any problem teaching using (almost) entirely directed questioning. If you were trying to extend the argument to some more general concept of learning all the maths there is to know (or however you'd want to phrase it), then yes, what you're saying would probably be relevant.
If anything, Labour's vote share seems a touch down this week, compared to last. But, there's also been a shift of about 2% from Conservative to UKIP.
I'm not sure anything has moved at all - what may well happen is that there will be a slow but sure trickle of methodological adjustment (As Populus and Yougov have done) that will nudge UKIP up as the GE is approached.
The next Sunil on Sunday ELBOW will be published on, er, Sunday
Can you send an embargoed copy of your ELBOW to me?
A fair few moustacheist comments on here again this morning. Come along, chaps, bigotry is bigotry and ugly no matter what form it takes. The fact that a fellow may have the face ornament of a walrus does not imply anything about his political beliefs
Remind me, Mr Llama - which party have you been recruiting members to recently?
Wonder if it were a female MP that defected if it would be ok to describe her as the rohypnol taker?
Well if they had, Roger Helmer would have come out in support of the female MP, or not.
Shame you can only see the partisan view of anything, you look very foolish, and aren't funny
Just shows how people play the man not the ball. Last night @NickPalmer made a remark about how the influence of America was ruining tv interviews.. I am sure there are many different types of American tv hosts, but Nick played on the stereotype. Fair enough, but if someone were to say the same about Pakistanis or Romanians, there would be faux outrage here..
Today people are making comparisons between political defection and child rape.. .its ok because its UKIP, and you are defending an obvious double standard because you are a foolish partisan tory
You're the one who tried to make a partisan point, my point was, UKIP's record when it comes to comments about rape don't always paint the party in a good light.
My point was "would it be ok to call a female defector a rohypnol taker?" How is that partisan?
You are saying that I cant criticise jokes about rape because I vote UKIP and Roger Helmer said something controversial about it??
Not just Roger Helmer, I'm just saying, UKIP can't play the homophobic/sexism card.
Crazy talk
I cant criticise child rape jokes because I vote UKIP? Shows what an idiot you are
Hmm, you appear deeply uncomfortable with the comments by the ex UKIp county councillor and Clacton candidate Roger Lord, even going so far yesterday as to pretend he was actually a Lib Dem – Admittedly his language may not be to everyone’s taste, but personally I find threats to ‘rip out your opponents throat’ and calling him ‘Nigels bitch’ refreshingly honest in PC claustrophobic world. - learn to embrace it ; )
Im not that bothered about what he said, a little bit of un PC language is fine by me I just find the flexible standards on here amazing
It seems its ok to joke about rape, child rape particularly. Incredible when you consider the news cycle at the moment
And its just to make a partisan point
And people who love a bit of faux outrage when its their community that are being joked about join in..
Lord said he was supporting the local Lib Dem actually, I must have misread
Wonder if it were a female MP that defected if it would be ok to describe her as the rohypnol taker?
Well if they had, Roger Helmer would have come out in support of the female MP, or not.
Shame you can only see the partisan view of anything, you look very foolish, and aren't funny
Just shows how people play the man not the ball. Last night @NickPalmer made a remark about how the influence of America was ruining tv interviews.. I am sure there are many different types of American tv hosts, but Nick played on the stereotype. Fair enough, but if someone were to say the same about Pakistanis or Romanians, there would be faux outrage here..
Today people are making comparisons between political defection and child rape.. .its ok because its UKIP, and you are defending an obvious double standard because you are a foolish partisan tory
You're the one who tried to make a partisan point, my point was, UKIP's record when it comes to comments about rape don't always paint the party in a good light.
My point was "would it be ok to call a female defector a rohypnol taker?" How is that partisan?
You are saying that I cant criticise jokes about rape because I vote UKIP and Roger Helmer said something controversial about it??
Not just Roger Helmer, I'm just saying, UKIP can't play the homophobic/sexism card.
Crazy talk
I cant criticise child rape jokes because I vote UKIP? Shows what an idiot you are
I thought we were talking about you whining about a prison rape joke.
You think its good form to joke about rape? And its whining to criticise it
Righto
Putting words into my mouth again. Poor Alan Sked would be appalled at your misuse of an apostrophe.
If anything, Labour's vote share seems a touch down this week, compared to last. But, there's also been a shift of about 2% from Conservative to UKIP.
I'm not sure anything has moved at all - what may well happen is that there will be a slow but sure trickle of methodological adjustment (As Populus and Yougov have done) that will nudge UKIP up as the GE is approached.
The next Sunil on Sunday ELBOW will be published on, er, Sunday
Can you send an embargoed copy of your ELBOW to me?
Yes I can do that, would early hours of Sunday be OK?
If anything, Labour's vote share seems a touch down this week, compared to last. But, there's also been a shift of about 2% from Conservative to UKIP.
I'm not sure anything has moved at all - what may well happen is that there will be a slow but sure trickle of methodological adjustment (As Populus and Yougov have done) that will nudge UKIP up as the GE is approached.
The next Sunil on Sunday ELBOW will be published on, er, Sunday
Can you send an embargoed copy of your ELBOW to me?
Yes I can do that, would early hours of Sunday be OK?
If anything, Labour's vote share seems a touch down this week, compared to last. But, there's also been a shift of about 2% from Conservative to UKIP.
I'm not sure anything has moved at all - what may well happen is that there will be a slow but sure trickle of methodological adjustment (As Populus and Yougov have done) that will nudge UKIP up as the GE is approached.
The next Sunil on Sunday ELBOW will be published on, er, Sunday
Can you send an embargoed copy of your ELBOW to me?
Yes I can do that, would early hours of Sunday be OK?
Thanks.
This will be the fourth weekly ELBOW, so hopefully will be enough data points to show any trends.
Wonder if it were a female MP that defected if it would be ok to describe her as the rohypnol taker?
Well if they had, Roger Helmer would have come out in support of the female MP, or not.
Shame you can only see the partisan view of anything, you look very foolish, and aren't funny
Just shows how people play the man not the ball. Last night @NickPalmer made a remark about how the influence of America was ruining tv interviews.. I am sure there are many different types of American tv hosts, but Nick played on the stereotype. Fair enough, but if someone were to say the same about Pakistanis or Romanians, there would be faux outrage here..
Today people are making comparisons between political defection and child rape.. .its ok because its UKIP, and you are defending an obvious double standard because you are a foolish partisan tory
You're the one who tried to make a partisan point, my point was, UKIP's record when it comes to comments about rape don't always paint the party in a good light.
My point was "would it be ok to call a female defector a rohypnol taker?" How is that partisan?
You are saying that I cant criticise jokes about rape because I vote UKIP and Roger Helmer said something controversial about it??
Not just Roger Helmer, I'm just saying, UKIP can't play the homophobic/sexism card.
Crazy talk
I cant criticise child rape jokes because I vote UKIP? Shows what an idiot you are
Hmm, you appear deeply uncomfortable with the comments by the ex UKIp county councillor and Clacton candidate Roger Lord, even going so far yesterday as to pretend he was actually a Lib Dem – Admittedly his language may not be to everyone’s taste, but personally I find threats to ‘rip out your opponents throat’ and calling him ‘Nigels bitch’ refreshingly honest in PC claustrophobic world. - learn to embrace it ; )
Im not that bothered about what he said, a little bit of un PC language is fine by me I just find the flexible standards on here amazing
It seems its ok to joke about rape, child rape particularly. Incredible when you consider the news cycle at the moment
And its just to make a partisan point
And people who love a bit of faux outrage when its their community that are being joked about join in..
Lord said he was supporting the local Lib Dem actually, I must have misread
Resorting to abuse, when you've lost the argument.
This strikes me as a very generational thing- how much Gradgrindian "facts" are valued as opposed to skills or understanding.
This is why I always found it strange how Gove talked about "factual" subjects to mean "hard" subjects. Maths is actually one of the least fact-based subjects around.
If you want proof of that, then think about which parts of the mathematics curriculum could not, in theory, be taught entirely through directed questioning. Notation couldn't. Naming of things like trigonometric functions couldn't. But I think pretty much everything else can. Calculus is a good example of something that could quite easily be taught entirely through prompting people down the right avenues of thought with questions alone.
To me, that's a pretty convincing argument that the subject has little to do with teaching "facts", because if you can teach with just questions, then the student must already know those facts. No amount of questioning could lead to a student who hadn't heard of Florence Nightingale or the Battle of Hastings suddenly producing the relevant facts about them. What you're teaching in mathematics is understanding, and the skill of applying that understanding quickly and accurately.
But societal understanding is impossible in the absence of "facts". It's like trying to teach people chemistry, without them knowing about what the basic elements or their properties are. The skills versus knowledge distinction is an entirely foolish one that could only be approved by someone who had lots of conceptual understanding but had never learned about reality.
Hm, I partially agree with this. Maybe even mostly agree. My point wasn't that "understanding vs. knowledge" is something where we should pick a side and say "Only skills matter!" "No, it's just facts that matter!"
My point was that it's easy to make two misleading assumptions: 1) Somebody's knowledge of facts is the best indicator of how "smart" they are 2) The "harder" (that's hard vs. soft, not vs. easy) a subject, the more factual it is
I mentioned mathematics because it's a particularly striking counterexample to 2. I think in general if you were somehow able to quantify the hardness of a skill, its factual content and it's understanding/skill-based content, and if you plotted the hardness vs the fact:understanding ratio (which sounds like something from Brass Eye), you'd probably end up with dots all over the place. There are certainly important subjects that require a lot of factual knowledge.
A fair few moustacheist comments on here again this morning. Come along, chaps, bigotry is bigotry and ugly no matter what form it takes. The fact that a fellow may have the face ornament of a walrus does not imply anything about his political beliefs
Remind me, Mr Llama - which party have you been recruiting members to recently?
[Innocent clean-shaven face ]
UKIP and, as you well know, I am somewhat walrusy about the upper lip. However, I refer you to Comrade Joe Stalin.
If anything, Labour's vote share seems a touch down this week, compared to last. But, there's also been a shift of about 2% from Conservative to UKIP.
I'm not sure anything has moved at all - what may well happen is that there will be a slow but sure trickle of methodological adjustment (As Populus and Yougov have done) that will nudge UKIP up as the GE is approached.
I'm still expecting UKIP to be c.10% on the day, rather than their current 15%.
If anything, Labour's vote share seems a touch down this week, compared to last. But, there's also been a shift of about 2% from Conservative to UKIP.
I'm not sure anything has moved at all - what may well happen is that there will be a slow but sure trickle of methodological adjustment (As Populus and Yougov have done) that will nudge UKIP up as the GE is approached.
If anything, Labour's vote share seems a touch down this week, compared to last. But, there's also been a shift of about 2% from Conservative to UKIP.
I'm not sure anything has moved at all - what may well happen is that there will be a slow but sure trickle of methodological adjustment (As Populus and Yougov have done) that will nudge UKIP up as the GE is approached.
I'm still expecting UKIP to be c.10% on the day, rather than their current 15%.
They may well be - but I think 15% is far more likely than 5% now for sure.
If you live in Berkley,California,had a medical need for medical cannabis,and are on a low income,free cannabis is available. Therefore,the answer for those on benefits,and/or low pay,in the UK, cannabis has the potential to cost zero.For those who are currently self-medicating on alcohol it marks a significant health benefit as well as a step out of poverty.
A fair few moustacheist comments on here again this morning. Come along, chaps, bigotry is bigotry and ugly no matter what form it takes. The fact that a fellow may have the face ornament of a walrus does not imply anything about his political beliefs
Remind me, Mr Llama - which party have you been recruiting members to recently?
[Innocent clean-shaven face ]
UKIP and, as you well know, I am somewhat walrusy about the upper lip. However, I refer you to Comrade Joe Stalin.
A fair few moustacheist comments on here again this morning. Come along, chaps, bigotry is bigotry and ugly no matter what form it takes. The fact that a fellow may have the face ornament of a walrus does not imply anything about his political beliefs
Remind me, Mr Llama - which party have you been recruiting members to recently?
[Innocent clean-shaven face ]
UKIP and, as you well know, I am somewhat walrusy about the upper lip. However, I refer you to Comrade Joe Stalin.
A fair few moustacheist comments on here again this morning. Come along, chaps, bigotry is bigotry and ugly no matter what form it takes. The fact that a fellow may have the face ornament of a walrus does not imply anything about his political beliefs
Remind me, Mr Llama - which party have you been recruiting members to recently?
[Innocent clean-shaven face ]
UKIP and, as you well know, I am somewhat walrusy about the upper lip. However, I refer you to Comrade Joe Stalin.
This strikes me as a very generational thing- how much Gradgrindian "facts" are valued as opposed to skills or understanding.
This is why I always found it strange how Gove talked about "factual" subjects to mean "hard" subjects. Maths is actually one of the least fact-based subjects around.
If you want proof of that, then think about which parts of the mathematics curriculum could not, in theory, be taught entirely through directed questioning. Notation couldn't. Naming of things like trigonometric functions couldn't. But I think pretty much everything else can. Calculus is a good example of something that could quite easily be taught entirely through prompting people down the right avenues of thought with questions alone.
To me, that's a pretty convincing argument that the subject has little to do with teaching "facts", because if you can teach with just questions, then the student must already know those facts. No amount of questioning could lead to a student who hadn't heard of Florence Nightingale or the Battle of Hastings suddenly producing the relevant facts about them. What you're teaching in mathematics is understanding, and the skill of applying that understanding quickly and accurately.
As mathematics is my first love, I have considerable sympathy for your argument. However, may I suggest that your argument that mathematics may be entirely taught from directed questioning is based on the same fallacy that Whitehead and Russell sought to prove that all of mathematics can be reduced to axioms. Godel blew that idea out of the water. In teaching mathematics at some point one has to be didactic.
Well I'd say we're talking about quite different things there. The mathematics I was talking about being taught is what we learn in school up to A-level. Maybe, at a stretch, you could include undergraduate level too, and at that point perhaps it becomes a bit blurrier.
Up to that point, I don't think there'd be any problem teaching using (almost) entirely directed questioning. If you were trying to extend the argument to some more general concept of learning all the maths there is to know (or however you'd want to phrase it), then yes, what you're saying would probably be relevant.
Actually I think it is at the junior end of the scale that one needs to be directive in teaching mathematics, not least because it is there that the axiomatic idea breaks down and because of time pressures - so much to learn in so short a time.
This strikes me as a very generational thing- how much Gradgrindian "facts" are valued as opposed to skills or understanding.
This is why I always found it strange how Gove talked about "factual" subjects to mean "hard" subjects. Maths is actually one of the least fact-based subjects around.
If you want proof of that, then think about which parts of the mathematics curriculum could not, in theory, be taught entirely through directed questioning. Notation couldn't. Naming of things like trigonometric functions couldn't. But I think pretty much everything else can. Calculus is a good example of something that could quite easily be taught entirely through prompting people down the right avenues of thought with questions alone.
To me, that's a pretty convincing argument that the subject has little to do with teaching "facts", because if you can teach with just questions, then the student must already know those facts. No amount of questioning could lead to a student who hadn't heard of Florence Nightingale or the Battle of Hastings suddenly producing the relevant facts about them. What you're teaching in mathematics is understanding, and the skill of applying that understanding quickly and accurately.
But societal understanding is impossible in the absence of "facts". It's like trying to teach people chemistry, without them knowing about what the basic elements or their properties are. The skills versus knowledge distinction is an entirely foolish one that could only be approved by someone who had lots of conceptual understanding but had never learned about reality.
Hm, I partially agree with this. Maybe even mostly agree. My point wasn't that "understanding vs. knowledge" is something where we should pick a side and say "Only skills matter!" "No, it's just facts that matter!"
My point was that it's easy to make two misleading assumptions: 1) Somebody's knowledge of facts is the best indicator of how "smart" they are 2) The "harder" (that's hard vs. soft, not vs. easy) a subject, the more factual it is
I mentioned mathematics because it's a particularly striking counterexample to 2. I think in general if you were somehow able to quantify the hardness of a skill, its factual content and it's understanding/skill-based content, and if you plotted the hardness vs the fact:understanding ratio (which sounds like something from Brass Eye), you'd probably end up with dots all over the place. There are certainly important subjects that require a lot of factual knowledge.
I think we're on the same page. But I was never arguing "only facts matter". I was arguing with those like Nick Palmer who think that evidence of historical knowledge isn't important at all for either those immigrating to the country or young people going through education.
The "Friday Populus is best for the Tories" theory seems to be withering on the vine. Still think nothing is really happening and the lead is 3-4...
On Scotland, not sure why DavidL is bothered by Miliband picking up Ruth D's comment. It's generally agreed here that the challenge now is to stop Labour voters drifting to Yes because they fear a new Tory government, and Ruth's comment was seen in that light. Partisan Labour remarks in the Scottish context follow the same theme. It's not the moment for inter-party deference.
Didn't he challenge Carswell to a duel, at one point last week?
Good point, that more than makes up for the lack of a moustache.
I am sure I once read of a duel in somewhere like Chile or Argentina in the 1970s. One army officer had insulted another by calling him a socialist. The duel was fought with submachine guns, 37 rounds were exchanged and neither party was injured.
If it were Argentina it would explain 1982 rather well.
Wonder if it were a female MP that defected if it would be ok to describe her as the rohypnol taker?
Well if they had, Roger Helmer would have come out in support of the female MP, or not.
Shame you can only see the partisan view of anything, you look very foolish, and aren't funny
Just shows how people play the man not the ball. Last night @NickPalmer made a remark about how the influence of America was ruining tv interviews.. I am sure there are many different types of American tv hosts, but Nick played on the stereotype. Fair enough, but if someone were to say the same about Pakistanis or Romanians, there would be faux outrage here..
Today people are making comparisons between political defection and child rape.. .its ok because its UKIP, and you are defending an obvious double standard because you are a foolish partisan tory
You're the one who tried to make a partisan point, my point was, UKIP's record when it comes to comments about rape don't always paint the party in a good light.
My point was "would it be ok to call a female defector a rohypnol taker?" How is that partisan?
You are saying that I cant criticise jokes about rape because I vote UKIP and Roger Helmer said something controversial about it??
Not just Roger Helmer, I'm just saying, UKIP can't play the homophobic/sexism card.
Crazy talk
I cant criticise child rape jokes because I vote UKIP? Shows what an idiot you are
I thought we were talking about you whining about a prison rape joke.
You think its good form to joke about rape? And its whining to criticise it
Righto
TSE betraying his Asian heritage
I know you're also Asian, so might feel you can joke about these things, but I think that's a very off-form joke. TSE is a very decent fellow and, even in jest, nobody should be judged on an individual basis by their broader ethnic group.
Actually I think it is at the junior end of the scale that one needs to be directive in teaching mathematics, not least because it is there that the axiomatic idea breaks down and because of time pressures - so much to learn in so short a time.
Definitely the time pressures, I agree. I wouldn't suggest actually trying to implement this, it's more of a thought experiment.
I'm not sure I agree about that being where the axiomatic idea breaks down, though. For one thing, I'd say the basic building blocks of mathematics *as it's taught* aren't axioms at all, they're descriptions of things that children understand empirically. When we're taught what addition is, we're taught that 5 + 3 is what you get when you put 5 apples together with 3 apples. Though children do indeed need to be taught the name ("addition") and the notation ("+"), as factual elements.
On Scotland, not sure why DavidL is bothered by Miliband picking up Ruth D's comment. It's generally agreed here that the challenge now is to stop Labour voters drifting to Yes because they fear a new Tory government, and Ruth's comment was seen in that light. Partisan Labour remarks in the Scottish context follow the same theme. It's not the moment for inter-party deference.
This is why, as Alan Cochrane argues forcefully in today’s Telegraph, Ed Miliband’s decision to seize on Ruth Davidson’s comments that a Tory victory next year was not ‘likely’, in order to make his own political point, was so unhelpful – because it contributes to the SNP narrative of Scots vs the Tories, rather than to a debate about the long-term effects of independence.
They are the Iranian state propaganda channel. CarlottaVance is getting to new levels of desperateness in trying to denigrate Mr Carswell. It's an absurd smear campaign she is trying: Carswell is widely respected by all sides in the Commons as a very decent and upstanding man of principle.
A fair few moustacheist comments on here again this morning. Come along, chaps, bigotry is bigotry and ugly no matter what form it takes. The fact that a fellow may have the face ornament of a walrus does not imply anything about his political beliefs
Wonder if it were a female MP that defected if it would be ok to describe her as the rohypnol taker?
Well if they had, Roger Helmer would have come out in support of the female MP, or not.
Shame you can only see the partisan view of anything, you look very foolish, and aren't funny
Just shows how people play the man not the ball. Last night @NickPalmer made a remark about how the influence of America was ruining tv interviews.. I am sure there are many different types of American tv hosts, but Nick played on the stereotype. Fair enough, but if someone were to say the same about Pakistanis or Romanians, there would be faux outrage here..
Today people are making comparisons between political defection and child rape.. .its ok because its UKIP, and you are defending an obvious double standard because you are a foolish partisan tory
You're the one who tried to make a partisan point, my point was, UKIP's record when it comes to comments about rape don't always paint the party in a good light.
My point was "would it be ok to call a female defector a rohypnol taker?" How is that partisan?
You are saying that I cant criticise jokes about rape because I vote UKIP and Roger Helmer said something controversial about it??
Not just Roger Helmer, I'm just saying, UKIP can't play the homophobic/sexism card.
Crazy talk
I cant criticise child rape jokes because I vote UKIP? Shows what an idiot you are
I thought we were talking about you whining about a prison rape joke.
You think its good form to joke about rape? And its whining to criticise it
Righto
TSE betraying his Asian heritage
I know you're also Asian, so might feel you can joke about these things, but I think that's a very off-form joke. TSE is a very decent fellow and, even in jest, nobody should be judged on an individual basis by their broader ethnic group.
It is very tempting indeed as someone of Indian extraction to laugh and point at Pakistanis, but India's not exactly a bed of roses for girls and women either:
Wonder if it were a female MP that defected if it would be ok to describe her as the rohypnol taker?
Well if they had, Roger Helmer would have come out in support of the female MP, or not.
Shame you can only see the partisan view of anything, you look very foolish, and aren't funny
Today people are making comparisons between political defection and child rape.. .its ok because its UKIP, and you are defending an obvious double standard because you are a foolish partisan tory
You're the one who tried to make a partisan point, my point was, UKIP's record when it comes to comments about rape don't always paint the party in a good light.
My point was "would it be ok to call a female defector a rohypnol taker?" How is that partisan?
You are saying that I cant criticise jokes about rape because I vote UKIP and Roger Helmer said something controversial about it??
Not just Roger Helmer, I'm just saying, UKIP can't play the homophobic/sexism card.
Crazy talk
I cant criticise child rape jokes because I vote UKIP? Shows what an idiot you are
I thought we were talking about you whining about a prison rape joke.
You think its good form to joke about rape? And its whining to criticise it
Righto
You sound like one of those fanboys when someone points out their Iphone 6 is smaller than the latest Samsung...
Wonder if it were a female MP that defected if it would be ok to describe her as the rohypnol taker?
Well if they had, Roger Helmer would have come out in support of the female MP, or not.
Shame you can only see the partisan view of anything, you look very foolish, and aren't funny
Today people are making comparisons between political defection and child rape.. .its ok because its UKIP, and you are defending an obvious double standard because you are a foolish partisan tory
You're the one who tried to make a partisan point, my point was, UKIP's record when it comes to comments about rape don't always paint the party in a good light.
My point was "would it be ok to call a female defector a rohypnol taker?" How is that partisan?
You are saying that I cant criticise jokes about rape because I vote UKIP and Roger Helmer said something controversial about it??
Not just Roger Helmer, I'm just saying, UKIP can't play the homophobic/sexism card.
Crazy talk
I cant criticise child rape jokes because I vote UKIP? Shows what an idiot you are
I thought we were talking about you whining about a prison rape joke.
You think its good form to joke about rape? And its whining to criticise it
Righto
You sound like one of those fanboys when someone points out their Iphone 6 is smaller than the latest Samsung...
I hope the iPhone is smaller than the Samsung. That way, it will go further when you throw it off the nearest cliff... ;-)
Wonder if it were a female MP that defected if it would be ok to describe her as the rohypnol taker?
Well if they had, Roger Helmer would have come out in support of the female MP, or not.
Shame you can only see the partisan view of anything, you look very foolish, and aren't funny
Just shows how peoan tv hosts, but Nick played on the stereotype. Fair enough, but if someone were to say the same about Pakistanis or Romanians, there would be faux ou Today people are making comparisons between political defection and child rape.. .its ok because its UKIP, and you are defending an obvious double standard because you are a foolish partisan tory
You're the one who tried to make a partisan point, my point was, UKIP's record when it comes to comments about rape don't always paint the party in a good light.
My point was "would it be ok to call a female defector a rohypnol taker?" How is that partisan?
You are saying that I cant criticise jokes about rape because I vote UKIP and Roger Helmer said something controversial about it??
Not just Roger Helmer, I'm just saying, UKIP can't play the homophobic/sexism card.
Crazy talk
I cant criticise child rape jokes because I vote UKIP? Shows what an idiot you are
Hmm, you appear deeply uncomfortable with the comments by the ex UKIp county councillor and Clacton candidate Roger Lord, even going so far yesterday as to pretend he was actually
Im not that bothered about what he said, a little bit of un PC language is fine by me I just find the flexible standards on here amazing
It seems its ok to joke about rape, child rape particularly. Incredible when you consider the news cycle at the moment
And its just to make a partisan point
And people who love a bit of faux outrage when its their community that are being joked about join in..
Twats
Lord said he was supporting the local Lib Dem actually, I must have misread
Resorting to abuse, when you've lost the argument.
Who do you think you are, MalcolmG?
I haven't lost the argument.
Just because I am the only one saying rape isn't funny while you all laugh about it because UKIP are the target, doesn't mean I am wrong
Has noone picked up on the most signifciant post of the week (nay - year)?
Roger has called the referendum for 'no'.
Time for Cameron to turn the lights off in his room and pour the whiskey. Time for punters to get on 'yes'!
I saw it, followed by this
@politicshome: Gordon Brown remains confident of Scots voting 'No' in the upcoming referendum, despite recent surge in 'Yes' support http://t.co/NxPbZSa8oQ
Wonder if it were a female MP that defected if it would be ok to describe her as the rohypnol taker?
Well if they had, Roger Helmer would have come out in support of the female MP, or not.
Shame you can only see the partisan view of anything, you look very foolish, and aren't funny
Just shows how peoan tv hosts, but Nick played on the stereotype. Fair enough, but if someone were to say the same about Pakistanis or Romanians, there would be faux ou Today people are making comparisons between political defection and child rape.. .its ok because its UKIP, and you are defending an obvious double standard because you are a foolish partisan tory
You're the one who tried to make a partisan point, my point was, UKIP's record when it comes to comments about rape don't always paint the party in a good light.
My point was "would it be ok to call a female defector a rohypnol taker?" How is that partisan?
You are saying that I cant criticise jokes about rape because I vote UKIP and Roger Helmer said something controversial about it??
Not just Roger Helmer, I'm just saying, UKIP can't play the homophobic/sexism card.
Crazy talk
I cant criticise child rape jokes because I vote UKIP? Shows what an idiot you are
Hmm, you appear deeply uncomfortable with the comments by the ex UKIp county councillor and Clacton candidate Roger Lord, even going so far yesterday as to pretend he was actually
Im not that bothered about what he said, a little bit of un PC language is fine by me I just find the flexible standards on here amazing
It seems its ok to joke about rape, child rape particularly. Incredible when you consider the news cycle at the moment
And its just to make a partisan point
And people who love a bit of faux outrage when its their community that are being joked about join in..
Twats
Lord said he was supporting the local Lib Dem actually, I must have misread
Resorting to abuse, when you've lost the argument.
Who do you think you are, MalcolmG?
I haven't lost the argument.
Just because I am the only one saying rape isn't funny while you all laugh about it because UKIP are the target, doesn't mean I am wrong
'Yes, perfectly sensible, we should actively encourage them to stay out there raping and slaughtering and what not. '
You prefer that they do that here instead?
Well the article suggests they would undergo some sort of deradicalization and ongoing surveillance. So I guess it's a question of how effective you think either of those things would be
@Socrates On the other hand, someone who has seen the realities of the "Islamic State" might be in a better position to explain to others thinking of going there, just what a disaster they are facing?
Just back from Glasgow. Definite buzz in the city. People talking about the referendum. Met my first "don't know" to "yes" convert. In that case the BT "negative campaign" was the decider.
Yes definitely have the MO. People talking about it being close and that YES is possible.
Comments
AFAIK, Farage has followed the party constitution. What else would one do in the circumstances?
Lord is covering up his own failure to do any homework. Perhaps he should do his ranting into a mirror.
A very brave man.
I was there for that and as I said yesterday it was a very good speech. The comment about Salmond getting to inspect the troops was met with derisive laughter in the room.
All of which makes Ed's idiot comments trying to make a party political point about Ruth Davidson's comments that the polls indicated that Ed might very well win the next election all the more depressing.
The man really is a muppet and if he sold snake oil he would give the profession a bad name.
Desperate Dan Hodges.
Apparently Lord has just accosted Carswell in the street, and flung his glove at him, shouting "Defiance, traitor, do I hurl in your face. Grant me satisfaction, or be known to all as a poltroon and craven."
"Not just Roger Helmer, I'm just saying, UKIP can't play the homophobic/sexism card."
A lot of 'crazy Rogers' being bandied around today....
Pass the soap.......
Who will win
If he loses Cameron could move him upstairs to become Lord Lord
"Roger, your cousin, the MP, has just retweeted one of my tweets.'
Cousin's son-in-law (and future PM unless they vote YES). Not quite Susanna Reid but lets see it anyway.....
Iran's Supreme Leader has approved co-operation with the US as part of the fight against Islamic State in northern Iraq, sources have told BBC Persian.
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29079052
"Roger what is your prediction for the Indyref?"
My cousin (ref previous post) who I'm visiting for the vote will be the angriest woman in Scotland if it's a YES. (Read tomorrow's letter's to the Guardian re-Mombiot to see what angry looks like!) So obviously I'm predicting a NO and in this instance I'm pretty sure I'm right.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/09/05/377732/ukip-welcomes-another-friend-of-israel/
There was a debate here about delaying the date of the next UK election etc.
Why can't we just delay the date of the next *Scottish* election until after any settlement has been negotiated ! Is that date not in Westminster's gift?
That way Salmond will have to back up the clouds of hot steam he's been issuing for the last few years, *if* the separatists win.
The by-election is amusingly on the same day as Clacton, lets see if the LD get 2% in that one as well.
" Here's Press TV's take on Nigel's pooch The upright Mr Carswell...
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/09/05/377732/ukip-welcomes-another-friend-of-israel/"
Perfectly suited to an ultra Nationalist xenophobic Party then......
Righto
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2744620/Dozens-British-jihadis-want-return-home-Intermediary-claims-30-British-men-requests-disillusioned-conflict.html
Up to that point, I don't think there'd be any problem teaching using (almost) entirely directed questioning. If you were trying to extend the argument to some more general concept of learning all the maths there is to know (or however you'd want to phrase it), then yes, what you're saying would probably be relevant.
[Innocent clean-shaven face
Jos Buttler (rhb) 46 36
Pull He is in scenes.
It seems its ok to joke about rape, child rape particularly. Incredible when you consider the news cycle at the moment
And its just to make a partisan point
And people who love a bit of faux outrage when its their community that are being joked about join in..
Lord said he was supporting the local Lib Dem actually, I must have misread
"The fact that a fellow may have the face ornament of a walrus does not imply anything about his political beliefs"
Are you telling me this isn't a Tory?
http://cbsdallas.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/walrus.jpg?w=620&h=349&crop=1
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01003/Mandy-460_1003860c.jpg
CON 272
LAB 310
LIB 28
NAT 14
UKIP 8
(NI 18)
Seats to watch:
Dumfries & Galloway: TCTC
Hallam: Clegg holds on in Hallam, but his majority is slashed to a thousand votes, Conservative tactical voting keeps him in place.
Inverness, Bairn & Strathspey - Unconfined Joy for the SNP as they narrowly unseat Danny Alexander.
Pudsey: Lab Gain
Reading West: Joy for Labour as Reading West unexpectedly falls
Sherwood: Lab Gain
Southampton Itchen: TCTC
Thurrock: UKIP Gain
Thanet South: UKIP Gain
Torbay - Adrian Sanders holds on narrowly from Kevin Foster (50 votes) as the Lib
Changes since last time:
Boston, Great Grimsby, Clacton, Great Yarmouth, Basildon & SE Thurrock, Rotherham all UKIP Gains.
Who do you think you are, MalcolmG?
My point was that it's easy to make two misleading assumptions:
1) Somebody's knowledge of facts is the best indicator of how "smart" they are
2) The "harder" (that's hard vs. soft, not vs. easy) a subject, the more factual it is
I mentioned mathematics because it's a particularly striking counterexample to 2. I think in general if you were somehow able to quantify the hardness of a skill, its factual content and it's understanding/skill-based content, and if you plotted the hardness vs the fact:understanding ratio (which sounds like something from Brass Eye), you'd probably end up with dots all over the place. There are certainly important subjects that require a lot of factual knowledge.
Therefore,the answer for those on benefits,and/or low pay,in the UK, cannabis has the potential to cost zero.For those who are currently self-medicating on alcohol it marks a significant health benefit as well as a step out of poverty.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/05/free-marijuana-berkeley_n_5770256.html
For prices in the current UK system of prohibition,consult your local cannabis club.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/shortcuts/2013/nov/17/cannabis-clubs-blossoming-uk
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02639/moustache_2639809b.jpg
On Scotland, not sure why DavidL is bothered by Miliband picking up Ruth D's comment. It's generally agreed here that the challenge now is to stop Labour voters drifting to Yes because they fear a new Tory government, and Ruth's comment was seen in that light. Partisan Labour remarks in the Scottish context follow the same theme. It's not the moment for inter-party deference.
I'm not sure I agree about that being where the axiomatic idea breaks down, though. For one thing, I'd say the basic building blocks of mathematics *as it's taught* aren't axioms at all, they're descriptions of things that children understand empirically. When we're taught what addition is, we're taught that 5 + 3 is what you get when you put 5 apples together with 3 apples. Though children do indeed need to be taught the name ("addition") and the notation ("+"), as factual elements.
"Lord said he was supporting the local Lib Dem actually"
I'm all for a bit of banter but that's taking abuse to another level
Even the Irish?
I personally thought this actor's facial hair to play a latter day Cain was marvellously coiffeured > img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140119164442/supernatural/images/e/e7/Supernatural-season-9-episode-11-first-born-cain-stares.jpg
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/01/toilets-unveiled-indian-village-girls-killed-fields-after-dark
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-27635363
http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2014/06/09/319529037/indias-rape-uproar-ignites-demand-to-end-open-defecation
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/syria-crisis-british-jihadists-becoming-disillusioned-at-fighting-rival-rebels-and-not-assad-regime-9713279.html
They've made their beds. Now they can lie in them.
(Has anyone ever noticed I detest Apple?)
Le Pen would beat Hollande in a runoff vote according to an Ifop poll just released in France.
The dug up skeleton of Joan of Arc would beat Hollande, so that's not saying much.
Roger has called the referendum for 'no'.
Time for Cameron to turn the lights off in his room and pour the whiskey. Time for punters to get on 'yes'!
Just because I am the only one saying rape isn't funny while you all laugh about it because UKIP are the target, doesn't mean I am wrong
Englishmen killing Englishmen in the name of Allah
@politicshome: Gordon Brown remains confident of Scots voting 'No' in the upcoming referendum, despite recent surge in 'Yes' support http://t.co/NxPbZSa8oQ
Too depressed to type...
An irresistible anti-tipping force meets an immovable anti-tipping object.
The rules of physics are about to be broken.
The Indyref is going to be a tie. 50% for both sides.
Which means we'll have to have another referendum and campaign.
'Yes, perfectly sensible, we should actively encourage them to stay out there raping and slaughtering and what not. '
You prefer that they do that here instead?
Le Pen 28%
Sarkozy 25%
Hollande 16%
Le Pen 30%
Juppé 24%
Hollande 16%
Le Pen 32%
Fillon 17%
Hollande 17%
On the other hand, someone who has seen the realities of the "Islamic State" might be in a better position to explain to others thinking of going there, just what a disaster they are facing?
Just back from Glasgow. Definite buzz in the city. People talking about the referendum. Met my first "don't know" to "yes" convert. In that case the BT "negative campaign" was the decider.
Yes definitely have the MO. People talking about it being close and that YES is possible.