The Tories should sweep the board in Southend West – politicalbetting.com

MrEd said:

HYUFD said:

MrEd said:

IshmaelZ said:

MattW said:

IshmaelZ said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

IshmaelZ said:

Startling if true

https://mobile.twitter.com/MuslimCensus/status/1487094934658293771

POLL FINDINGS Police cars revolving light

@UKLabour at risk of losing 55% of their Muslim vote from the 2019 General Election.

No idea about voodoo status of poll

Where is it going then

Muslim Census

@MuslimCensus

·

17h

Replying to

@MuslimCensus

Voting intentions (23rd-26th Jan): Labour – 38% (-40) Undecided – 19% Will not vote – 18% (+10) Green Party – 8% (+7) Liberal Democrats – 4% (+1) SNP – 3% (-1) Conservatives – 2% (-1) Other – 8% (+5)

Aren't those self-selecting web polls?

On the one I checked, 75% of the sample was under-27, and they seem to think this is 'representative of British Muslims'.

They say they weight

https://muslimcensus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/themuslimvote-sample.pdf

If the Corbynites do form their own party, there’s an obvious structural threat to Labour here - namely the new party aligns with the Greens, effectively take it over (organisationally) and then targets the same core groups which are the bedrock of Labour support via their different ‘brands’ (urban professionals - the Greens; ethnic minority, predominately Muslim - the Corbynites). How does Labour counteract that?

By targeting the centre.

It would likely never happen absent PR anyway

Trouble with that is (a) the centre is quite mushy (b) that would mean Labour abandoning principles that even its more centrist members like eg abandoning its opposition to public schools (c) by its very nature, people in the centre don’t tend to do the heavy lifting etc because they are not enthused by a particular ideology (d) it would effectively mean the recreation of the Liberal-SDP alliance of the 80s (with Labour as the SDP) with all the negative baggage that comes with that.

MrEd said:

IshmaelZ said:

MattW said:

IshmaelZ said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

IshmaelZ said:

Startling if true

https://mobile.twitter.com/MuslimCensus/status/1487094934658293771

POLL FINDINGS Police cars revolving light

@UKLabour at risk of losing 55% of their Muslim vote from the 2019 General Election.

No idea about voodoo status of poll

Where is it going then

Muslim Census

@MuslimCensus

·

17h

Replying to

@MuslimCensus

Voting intentions (23rd-26th Jan): Labour – 38% (-40) Undecided – 19% Will not vote – 18% (+10) Green Party – 8% (+7) Liberal Democrats – 4% (+1) SNP – 3% (-1) Conservatives – 2% (-1) Other – 8% (+5)

Aren't those self-selecting web polls?

On the one I checked, 75% of the sample was under-27, and they seem to think this is 'representative of British Muslims'.

They say they weight

https://muslimcensus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/themuslimvote-sample.pdf

If the Corbynites do form their own party, there’s an obvious structural threat to Labour here - namely the new party aligns with the Greens, effectively take it over (organisationally) and then targets the same core groups which are the bedrock of Labour support via their different ‘brands’ (urban professionals - the Greens; ethnic minority, predominately Muslim - the Corbynites). How does Labour counteract that?

noneoftheabove said:

Benpointer said:

MrEd said:

malcolmg said:

Cyclefree said:

Beibheirli_C said:

Cyclefree said:

Sandpit said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

Tom Tugendhat confirms he will stand for Tory leader and PM if Boris goes

https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1487335579490697217?s=20&t=zNnJV8gWrvK-XspN8id0UA

Now down to 10 on Smarkets. At least he is showing a bit of backbone, something that Truss and Sunak seem to lack.

An interesting bit of kremlinology in the Guardian today:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/28/sunak-v-truss-how-pm-boris-johnson-rivals-tackled-another-tough-week

Unlike Tugendhat, Sunak and Truss are both on the payroll, so can’t really comment until there’s actually a vacancy.

That said, the resignation of either of them, could be what kick-starts the contest in the first place.

Didn't Rory Stewart express an interest in the top job should a vacancy be available while still a Cabinet Minister?

Surely his time has passed? He would need to rejoin the Conservatives and that party no longer exists

I wasn't suggesting him for now; for the reasons you say his time has passed. But simply that there is no reason why a Cabinet Minister couldn't express a conditional wish for the top job as Rory did when he was in Cabinet. (If I've remembered correctly.)

I do wish Rory was back in Parliament, though.

He did nothing , just another yahoo Tory with no value add.

Surprisingly in agreement there. Stewart was just another romanticised figure who appealed to the chattering classes, along with the phrase “I would vote Tory if Rory Stewart was leader”. Missing the slight downside that RS being leader would lose the Tories more votes than he would bring in.

Plus, I cannot think the solution to the current crisis is yet another old Etonian.

Agreed, surely it is beyond time for an Old Harrovian?

noneoftheabove said:

Leon said:

An insightful essay about EU Europeans who quit Britain and left after the Brexit vote. What they miss, do they regret, etc


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/29/brexit-pubs-curry-pg-tips-but-not-weather-what-exiles-miss-about-uk?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


Not one of them, not a single one, even mentions the possibility that they understand why the British voted to Leave on the grounds of sovereignty and democracy. Most of them claim to love the UK, they do not love it, because love means understanding. Nor does the concept that Britain is admirable BECAUSE it is different and seeks self-rule and tries to be properly democratic even enter their tiny minds

Fuck em

Your post is a great example of world leading empathy and self awareness.

RochdalePioneers said:

MrEd said:

IshmaelZ said:

MattW said:

IshmaelZ said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

IshmaelZ said:

Startling if true

https://mobile.twitter.com/MuslimCensus/status/1487094934658293771

POLL FINDINGS Police cars revolving light

@UKLabour at risk of losing 55% of their Muslim vote from the 2019 General Election.

No idea about voodoo status of poll

Where is it going then

Muslim Census

@MuslimCensus

·

17h

Replying to

@MuslimCensus

Voting intentions (23rd-26th Jan): Labour – 38% (-40) Undecided – 19% Will not vote – 18% (+10) Green Party – 8% (+7) Liberal Democrats – 4% (+1) SNP – 3% (-1) Conservatives – 2% (-1) Other – 8% (+5)

Aren't those self-selecting web polls?

On the one I checked, 75% of the sample was under-27, and they seem to think this is 'representative of British Muslims'.

They say they weight

https://muslimcensus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/themuslimvote-sample.pdf

If the Corbynites do form their own party, there’s an obvious structural threat to Labour here - namely the new party aligns with the Greens, effectively take it over (organisationally) and then targets the same core groups which are the bedrock of Labour support via their different ‘brands’ (urban professionals - the Greens; ethnic minority, predominately Muslim - the Corbynites). How does Labour counteract that?

More realistically they found the Peace and Justice Party, then have a row, then we have two PJP's whose principle enemy is the other PJP. This is how the laughably named "left unity" has so many pointless mini parties represented.

MrEd said:

RochdalePioneers said:

MrEd said:

IshmaelZ said:

MattW said:

IshmaelZ said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

IshmaelZ said:

Startling if true

https://mobile.twitter.com/MuslimCensus/status/1487094934658293771

POLL FINDINGS Police cars revolving light

@UKLabour at risk of losing 55% of their Muslim vote from the 2019 General Election.

No idea about voodoo status of poll

Where is it going then

Muslim Census

@MuslimCensus

·

17h

Replying to

@MuslimCensus

Voting intentions (23rd-26th Jan): Labour – 38% (-40) Undecided – 19% Will not vote – 18% (+10) Green Party – 8% (+7) Liberal Democrats – 4% (+1) SNP – 3% (-1) Conservatives – 2% (-1) Other – 8% (+5)

Aren't those self-selecting web polls?

On the one I checked, 75% of the sample was under-27, and they seem to think this is 'representative of British Muslims'.

They say they weight

https://muslimcensus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/themuslimvote-sample.pdf

If the Corbynites do form their own party, there’s an obvious structural threat to Labour here - namely the new party aligns with the Greens, effectively take it over (organisationally) and then targets the same core groups which are the bedrock of Labour support via their different ‘brands’ (urban professionals - the Greens; ethnic minority, predominately Muslim - the Corbynites). How does Labour counteract that?

More realistically they found the Peace and Justice Party, then have a row, then we have two PJP's whose principle enemy is the other PJP. This is how the laughably named "left unity" has so many pointless mini parties represented.

Or they take over the Greens, as mentioned below.

One thing they can bring to the Greens is the promise of new MPs in heavily Muslim seats plus a more effective organisation. That might be too tempting for the Greens to resist.

noneoftheabove said:

Leon said:

An insightful essay about EU Europeans who quit Britain and left after the Brexit vote. What they miss, do they regret, etc


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/29/brexit-pubs-curry-pg-tips-but-not-weather-what-exiles-miss-about-uk?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


Not one of them, not a single one, even mentions the possibility that they understand why the British voted to Leave on the grounds of sovereignty and democracy. Most of them claim to love the UK, they do not love it, because love means understanding. Nor does the concept that Britain is admirable BECAUSE it is different and seeks self-rule and tries to be properly democratic even enter their tiny minds

Fuck em

Your post is a great example of world leading empathy and self awareness.

Leon said:

Pulpstar said:

Big new threat to Spotify.

James Blunt
@JamesBlunt
·
1h
If @spotify
doesn’t immediately remove @joerogan
, I will release new music onto the platform. #youwerebeautiful

It’s always welcome and heartening when multi-millionaire musicians campaign against Freedom of Speech and try to prevent me listening to alternative voices

Foxy said:

kle4 said:

Foxy said:

NickPalmer said:

Leon said:

I am haunted by the figure of Bill Bryson’s grandfather (IIRC) who became so bored in retirement he used to carefully fill in all the “o”s in books with a pen

Bryson found this inexplicable until he went to Tromso to look for the Northern Lights but had to wait three weeks - with nothing else to do. By the third week he got out his pen…

When my father retired, he was really looking forward to it - lots more time to do his favourite things, like reading French literature. After a few months, he commented that a problem was that many of his interests weren't scalable - he actually didn't want to read literature 6 or 7 hours a day. But he adjusted, gave space to second-level things that he'd never given time to at all. Towards his death, even with mild dementia, he said he was happier than he'd ever been - something that warms me whenever I think back about him.

It's one model. Another is just to defy retirement. I'm 72 next week, and have three enjoyable paid jobs and one unpaid job (CLP Chair). I can see myself scaling that back gradually if illness or just tiredness start to appear, but just switching off and doing nothing lacks appeal. Perhaps you should plan to continute knapping flints, writing about travel as you do so well, or whatever you currently enjoy, and shrug off each age milestone.

The internet helps, either way. Unless you go blind, you can pursue any interest whatever from an armchair, with any number of contacts sharing that interest. Bill Bryson's grandfather might have felt differently with that.

Yes, I shall give up medicine when I hit State Pension age (67 in my case). It does need active preparation to have a sufficient range of activities to stimulate the brain afterwards. I will read and garden more, but that cannot fill a whole day.

A daily prescription of PB will cure what might ail you. Just beware of overdosing.

Day 3 of isolation, and feeling rather rough. Headache mostly today, but general fatigue, and some cough. O2 sats still good. Mostly bored today, not feeling up to a long read. Dog a bit bouncy and not understanding why I am at home, but not walking him.

Not retirement of course, but boring.

DavidL said:

noneoftheabove said:

Leon said:

An insightful essay about EU Europeans who quit Britain and left after the Brexit vote. What they miss, do they regret, etc


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/29/brexit-pubs-curry-pg-tips-but-not-weather-what-exiles-miss-about-uk?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


Not one of them, not a single one, even mentions the possibility that they understand why the British voted to Leave on the grounds of sovereignty and democracy. Most of them claim to love the UK, they do not love it, because love means understanding. Nor does the concept that Britain is admirable BECAUSE it is different and seeks self-rule and tries to be properly democratic even enter their tiny minds

Fuck em

Your post is a great example of world leading empathy and self awareness.

More significantly the Guardian seems somewhat less interested in the 3.5m-6m who have chosen to stay: https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/07/02/are-there-really-6m-eu-citizens-living-in-the-uk/

Roughly a minimum of 10x those who chose to leave, even after Covid destroyed many EU citizens jobs here.

But, whatever. Remainers need to moan, we get that.

darkage said:

noneoftheabove said:

Leon said:

An insightful essay about EU Europeans who quit Britain and left after the Brexit vote. What they miss, do they regret, etc


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/29/brexit-pubs-curry-pg-tips-but-not-weather-what-exiles-miss-about-uk?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


Not one of them, not a single one, even mentions the possibility that they understand why the British voted to Leave on the grounds of sovereignty and democracy. Most of them claim to love the UK, they do not love it, because love means understanding. Nor does the concept that Britain is admirable BECAUSE it is different and seeks self-rule and tries to be properly democratic even enter their tiny minds

Fuck em

Your post is a great example of world leading empathy and self awareness.

My wife is an EU citizen and hasn't left. We are both deeply nostalgic for pre Brexit Britain.
I suppose the nostalgia we feel is similar to that felt by Brexit voters in 2016, who hoped for a return of the pre mass immigration era.
But the reality is that both worlds have passed. They are gone forever and aren't coming back. We have to make what we can of the new reality.

kjh said:

kjh said:

IshmaelZ said:

tlg86 said:

Daveyboy1961 said:

tlg86 said:

Foxy said:

No_Offence_Alan said:

Farooq said:

Sandpit said:

Daveyboy1961 said:

Daveyboy1961 said:

Sandpit said:

Jonathan said:

See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?

And of course he was such a success as Foreign Secretary, (a lady in an iraqi prison stirs...another he threw under the bus)

Edit : Iranian

Iranian woman, Iranian prison.

British passport holder. What's your point, caller?

So is Ghislaine Maxwell. We are not trying to get her out of an American prison.

So are you suggesting that Nasrani was rightfully convicted?

I suspect she was.

Without prejudicing her possible release, could you explain why you suspect that?

Because of what Boris Johnson said. I suspect he was guilty of speaking the truth. That’s not to excuse him, a foreign sec should know what to say. But I suspect it was the truth.

If you had any serious grounds to have a belief one way or the other, you would presumably not be sharing them on here. And Johnson's position is no different whether it was true or not. Indeed if it's false he has merely dropped a uk citizen in the shit, if true he has both done that and compromised uk security.

Spot on. I have liked but wanted to comment as well, particularly as I was going to make the same post. Regardless of whether true or not what Boris said was an appalling blunder. I assume an accident, but if it were me I would struggle to live with myself knowing what I had done.

To add to that, in fairness that is probably a flaw in my own personality. I would hate to ever be in a position where what I did or said impacted other people's lives so much, but people have to (Policemen, Politicians, Lawyers, Doctors, etc, etc). I often think of David Waddington and the Stefan Kisko case because it is so sad. David Waddington later became Governor of Bermuda which had the death penalty at the time. I can't understand how he could have taken that position. It would haunt me.

NickPalmer said:

Mmm, I see. I think voting Tory in Southend W won't be interpreted as a vote of confidence in British Afghanistan policy, though - just a message to murderers not to bother, you just get another MP with similar views.

Foxy said:

DavidL said:

noneoftheabove said:

Leon said:

An insightful essay about EU Europeans who quit Britain and left after the Brexit vote. What they miss, do they regret, etc


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/29/brexit-pubs-curry-pg-tips-but-not-weather-what-exiles-miss-about-uk?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


Not one of them, not a single one, even mentions the possibility that they understand why the British voted to Leave on the grounds of sovereignty and democracy. Most of them claim to love the UK, they do not love it, because love means understanding. Nor does the concept that Britain is admirable BECAUSE it is different and seeks self-rule and tries to be properly democratic even enter their tiny minds

Fuck em

Your post is a great example of world leading empathy and self awareness.

More significantly the Guardian seems somewhat less interested in the 3.5m-6m who have chosen to stay: https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/07/02/are-there-really-6m-eu-citizens-living-in-the-uk/

Roughly a minimum of 10x those who chose to leave, even after Covid destroyed many EU citizens jobs here.

But, whatever. Remainers need to moan, we get that.

I suspect that most Unionists will stay on in Independent Scotland too, but it doesn't mean that they will like it, and mourn their losses.

kinabalu said:

kjh said:

kjh said:

IshmaelZ said:

tlg86 said:

Daveyboy1961 said:

tlg86 said:

Foxy said:

No_Offence_Alan said:

Farooq said:

Sandpit said:

Daveyboy1961 said:

Daveyboy1961 said:

Sandpit said:

Jonathan said:

See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?

And of course he was such a success as Foreign Secretary, (a lady in an iraqi prison stirs...another he threw under the bus)

Edit : Iranian

Iranian woman, Iranian prison.

British passport holder. What's your point, caller?

So is Ghislaine Maxwell. We are not trying to get her out of an American prison.

So are you suggesting that Nasrani was rightfully convicted?

I suspect she was.

Without prejudicing her possible release, could you explain why you suspect that?

Because of what Boris Johnson said. I suspect he was guilty of speaking the truth. That’s not to excuse him, a foreign sec should know what to say. But I suspect it was the truth.

If you had any serious grounds to have a belief one way or the other, you would presumably not be sharing them on here. And Johnson's position is no different whether it was true or not. Indeed if it's false he has merely dropped a uk citizen in the shit, if true he has both done that and compromised uk security.

Spot on. I have liked but wanted to comment as well, particularly as I was going to make the same post. Regardless of whether true or not what Boris said was an appalling blunder. I assume an accident, but if it were me I would struggle to live with myself knowing what I had done.

To add to that, in fairness that is probably a flaw in my own personality. I would hate to ever be in a position where what I did or said impacted other people's lives so much, but people have to (Policemen, Politicians, Lawyers, Doctors, etc, etc). I often think of David Waddington and the Stefan Kisko case because it is so sad. David Waddington later became Governor of Bermuda which had the death penalty at the time. I can't understand how he could have taken that position. It would haunt me.

That's not a flaw.

RochdalePioneers said:

Foxy said:

DavidL said:

noneoftheabove said:

Leon said:

An insightful essay about EU Europeans who quit Britain and left after the Brexit vote. What they miss, do they regret, etc


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/29/brexit-pubs-curry-pg-tips-but-not-weather-what-exiles-miss-about-uk?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


Not one of them, not a single one, even mentions the possibility that they understand why the British voted to Leave on the grounds of sovereignty and democracy. Most of them claim to love the UK, they do not love it, because love means understanding. Nor does the concept that Britain is admirable BECAUSE it is different and seeks self-rule and tries to be properly democratic even enter their tiny minds

Fuck em

Your post is a great example of world leading empathy and self awareness.

More significantly the Guardian seems somewhat less interested in the 3.5m-6m who have chosen to stay: https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/07/02/are-there-really-6m-eu-citizens-living-in-the-uk/

Roughly a minimum of 10x those who chose to leave, even after Covid destroyed many EU citizens jobs here.

But, whatever. Remainers need to moan, we get that.

I suspect that most Unionists will stay on in Independent Scotland too, but it doesn't mean that they will like it, and mourn their losses.

And every week that goes by by the Corruption Party in government and apparent collusion by the police and the powers that be, the more likely it is that independence will happen. For all that Blackford and the SNP call for Liar to go they really want him to stay as it is self evident to all bar a few on here the damage that the government are doing to the Union.

HYUFD said:

MrEd said:

HYUFD said:

MrEd said:

HYUFD said:

MrEd said:

IshmaelZ said:

MattW said:

IshmaelZ said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

IshmaelZ said:

Startling if true

https://mobile.twitter.com/MuslimCensus/status/1487094934658293771

POLL FINDINGS Police cars revolving light

@UKLabour at risk of losing 55% of their Muslim vote from the 2019 General Election.

No idea about voodoo status of poll

Where is it going then

Muslim Census

@MuslimCensus

·

17h

Replying to

@MuslimCensus

Voting intentions (23rd-26th Jan): Labour – 38% (-40) Undecided – 19% Will not vote – 18% (+10) Green Party – 8% (+7) Liberal Democrats – 4% (+1) SNP – 3% (-1) Conservatives – 2% (-1) Other – 8% (+5)

Aren't those self-selecting web polls?

On the one I checked, 75% of the sample was under-27, and they seem to think this is 'representative of British Muslims'.

They say they weight

https://muslimcensus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/themuslimvote-sample.pdf

If the Corbynites do form their own party, there’s an obvious structural threat to Labour here - namely the new party aligns with the Greens, effectively take it over (organisationally) and then targets the same core groups which are the bedrock of Labour support via their different ‘brands’ (urban professionals - the Greens; ethnic minority, predominately Muslim - the Corbynites). How does Labour counteract that?

By targeting the centre.

It would likely never happen absent PR anyway

Trouble with that is (a) the centre is quite mushy (b) that would mean Labour abandoning principles that even its more centrist members like eg abandoning its opposition to public schools (c) by its very nature, people in the centre don’t tend to do the heavy lifting etc because they are not enthused by a particular ideology (d) it would effectively mean the recreation of the Liberal-SDP alliance of the 80s (with Labour as the SDP) with all the negative baggage that comes with that.

New Labour won from the centre from 1997 to 2010 despite plenty of leftwingers voting Charles Kennedy LD, Green, Respect etc. It also did not abolish public schools.

The only thing keeping the 2 main parties together is FPTP. If we had PR the Corbynite left of Labour would form their own party, most of the remaining ex Remainers in the Tory party would form their own party too and RefUK would win seats as well

New Labour won not because it was centrist but because people were pissed off with the Tories and, more importantly, Labour de-toxified the brand enough where many voters did not feel threatened enough to vote against it.

If you want to look at how much people feared Labour back in 1992, consider that the Tory vote then has never been exceeded by any party ever in any election, despite the increase in the size of the electorate. That goes for the 2019 Tory victory as well.

Crucially, New Labour also combined that with a ruthless organisational and PR strategy.

1997 was an aberration in British politics caused by a very unique set of circumstances. Centrist parties generally don’t win.

The more centrist party won in 1992, 1997, 2001, 2005, 2015 and 2017 and arguably 2019. It also won most seats in 2010.

The only times since WW2 the more centrist of the 2 main parties has lost were 1945, 1950, 1964, 1966, 1974 and 1979

eek said:

RochdalePioneers said:

HYUFD said:

RochdalePioneers said:

HYUFD said:

RochdalePioneers said:

HYUFD said:

Beibheirli_C said:

eek said:

There is a great article in Sinn Feinnand Irish unity at https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/sinn-fein-and-the-re-greening-of-ireland-unification-elections-northern-ireland-republic

Well worth a read

An interesting article. Thank you for the link.

A federal Ireland with the North keeping Stormont and its own elections would address a lot of issues and might well be acceptable to a portion of the Unionist population. The Irish Sea border is certainly assisting people in thinking in that direction since that is almost how things stand at the moment.

But will not be for much longer once DUP ministers ban checks on goods going to and from NI and GB which Truss will not oppose

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-checks-dup-liz-truss-b2002745.html

You truly are a fool They have no power to do such a thing. If they did have they would already have done so. The operation of the NI side of the GB NI hard border is with the NI Office, not the devolved administration.

They do.

The DUP ministers are about to rip the Irish Sea border to pieces.

Truss has correctly made clear the UK government will not do a thing to stop them as Boris has given her responsibility for it, the NI office will be powerless if Truss rightly orders them to do nothing

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-checks-dup-liz-truss-b2002745.html

I know that you are fundamentally a parrot so won't understand this, so lets go slowly.

No, they don't. Read the article. The proposal is that the DUP "block" the checks. As they don;t have any power over them every other party on the executive has pointed out that it is a stunt. Because civil servants in the NI Office who run the border would be obliged to ignore the DUP.

Truss is saying they won't intervene because the government would implement the pull on checks. Because the NI Office runs them, not the assembly.

I have to assume that you know this, you aren't that ignorant. So you are repeating a lie thinking we are stupid. We are not. Perhaps you are?

Civil servants in NI report to the UK government. As Truss makes clear she will not block the decision of elected DUP ministers to block the checks.

And if that does not work the DUP have also made clear they will walk out of the Stormont Executive and effectively end the Good Friday Agreement until the Irish Sea border is removed

Correct - civil servants in NI report to the UK government. So Poots has zero power to order anything.

So why do you keep saying that he does?

It’s the same as his continual statements that the DUP will quite Stormont. They can’t because as soon as they do the last hurdles that are stopping abortions from occurring in NI can be removed by the Northern Ireland Secretary who needs the issue resolved before he becomes in contempt of court (latter doesn’t mean anything but the DUP quitting Stormont isn’t the win HYUFD thinks it will be.

HYUFD said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Foxy said:

DavidL said:

noneoftheabove said:

Leon said:

An insightful essay about EU Europeans who quit Britain and left after the Brexit vote. What they miss, do they regret, etc


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/29/brexit-pubs-curry-pg-tips-but-not-weather-what-exiles-miss-about-uk?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


Not one of them, not a single one, even mentions the possibility that they understand why the British voted to Leave on the grounds of sovereignty and democracy. Most of them claim to love the UK, they do not love it, because love means understanding. Nor does the concept that Britain is admirable BECAUSE it is different and seeks self-rule and tries to be properly democratic even enter their tiny minds

Fuck em

Your post is a great example of world leading empathy and self awareness.

More significantly the Guardian seems somewhat less interested in the 3.5m-6m who have chosen to stay: https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/07/02/are-there-really-6m-eu-citizens-living-in-the-uk/

Roughly a minimum of 10x those who chose to leave, even after Covid destroyed many EU citizens jobs here.

But, whatever. Remainers need to moan, we get that.

I suspect that most Unionists will stay on in Independent Scotland too, but it doesn't mean that they will like it, and mourn their losses.

And every week that goes by by the Corruption Party in government and apparent collusion by the police and the powers that be, the more likely it is that independence will happen. For all that Blackford and the SNP call for Liar to go they really want him to stay as it is self evident to all bar a few on here the damage that the government are doing to the Union.

The government will continue to refuse indyref2 so it does not matter. Only way the SNP get indyref2 is with a Starmer minority government

MrEd said:

Foxy said:

MrEd said:

RochdalePioneers said:

MrEd said:

IshmaelZ said:

MattW said:

IshmaelZ said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

IshmaelZ said:

Startling if true

https://mobile.twitter.com/MuslimCensus/status/1487094934658293771

POLL FINDINGS Police cars revolving light

@UKLabour at risk of losing 55% of their Muslim vote from the 2019 General Election.

No idea about voodoo status of poll

Where is it going then

Muslim Census

@MuslimCensus

·

17h

Replying to

@MuslimCensus

Voting intentions (23rd-26th Jan): Labour – 38% (-40) Undecided – 19% Will not vote – 18% (+10) Green Party – 8% (+7) Liberal Democrats – 4% (+1) SNP – 3% (-1) Conservatives – 2% (-1) Other – 8% (+5)

Aren't those self-selecting web polls?

On the one I checked, 75% of the sample was under-27, and they seem to think this is 'representative of British Muslims'.

They say they weight

https://muslimcensus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/themuslimvote-sample.pdf

If the Corbynites do form their own party, there’s an obvious structural threat to Labour here - namely the new party aligns with the Greens, effectively take it over (organisationally) and then targets the same core groups which are the bedrock of Labour support via their different ‘brands’ (urban professionals - the Greens; ethnic minority, predominately Muslim - the Corbynites). How does Labour counteract that?

More realistically they found the Peace and Justice Party, then have a row, then we have two PJP's whose principle enemy is the other PJP. This is how the laughably named "left unity" has so many pointless mini parties represented.

Or they take over the Greens, as mentioned below.

One thing they can bring to the Greens is the promise of new MPs in heavily Muslim seats plus a more effective organisation. That might be too tempting for the Greens to resist.

The Greens though have a very different vibe, from light green recyclers to dark green eco-anarchists. Few are interested in traditional left wing structures and parties, indeed that is the reason they formed the party.

Agreed but their overwhelming desire is to save the planet in whichever form and that trumps everything. Hence why they remain a niche party despite their European counterparts advancing, because they refuse to be pragmatic. If the Corbynites came to them and said “we can get you to your goal if we join forces”, I suspect many would go along with it and turn a blind eye to the other excesses.

MrEd said:

HYUFD said:

MrEd said:

HYUFD said:

MrEd said:

IshmaelZ said:

MattW said:

IshmaelZ said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

IshmaelZ said:

Startling if true

https://mobile.twitter.com/MuslimCensus/status/1487094934658293771

POLL FINDINGS Police cars revolving light

@UKLabour at risk of losing 55% of their Muslim vote from the 2019 General Election.

No idea about voodoo status of poll

Where is it going then

Muslim Census

@MuslimCensus

·

17h

Replying to

@MuslimCensus

Voting intentions (23rd-26th Jan): Labour – 38% (-40) Undecided – 19% Will not vote – 18% (+10) Green Party – 8% (+7) Liberal Democrats – 4% (+1) SNP – 3% (-1) Conservatives – 2% (-1) Other – 8% (+5)

Aren't those self-selecting web polls?

On the one I checked, 75% of the sample was under-27, and they seem to think this is 'representative of British Muslims'.

They say they weight

https://muslimcensus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/themuslimvote-sample.pdf

If the Corbynites do form their own party, there’s an obvious structural threat to Labour here - namely the new party aligns with the Greens, effectively take it over (organisationally) and then targets the same core groups which are the bedrock of Labour support via their different ‘brands’ (urban professionals - the Greens; ethnic minority, predominately Muslim - the Corbynites). How does Labour counteract that?

By targeting the centre.

It would likely never happen absent PR anyway

Trouble with that is (a) the centre is quite mushy (b) that would mean Labour abandoning principles that even its more centrist members like eg abandoning its opposition to public schools (c) by its very nature, people in the centre don’t tend to do the heavy lifting etc because they are not enthused by a particular ideology (d) it would effectively mean the recreation of the Liberal-SDP alliance of the 80s (with Labour as the SDP) with all the negative baggage that comes with that.

New Labour won from the centre from 1997 to 2010 despite plenty of leftwingers voting Charles Kennedy LD, Green, Respect etc. It also did not abolish public schools.

The only thing keeping the 2 main parties together is FPTP. If we had PR the Corbynite left of Labour would form their own party, most of the remaining ex Remainers in the Tory party would form their own party too and RefUK would win seats as well

New Labour won not because it was centrist but because people were pissed off with the Tories and, more importantly, Labour de-toxified the brand enough where many voters did not feel threatened enough to vote against it.

If you want to look at how much people feared Labour back in 1992, consider that the Tory vote then has never been exceeded by any party ever in any election, despite the increase in the size of the electorate. That goes for the 2019 Tory victory as well.

Crucially, New Labour also combined that with a ruthless organisational and PR strategy.

1997 was an aberration in British politics caused by a very unique set of circumstances. Centrist parties generally don’t win.

IshmaelZ said:

NickPalmer said:

IshmaelZ said:

NickPalmer said:

IshmaelZ said:

FF43 said:

If I lived in Southend West I would happily vote Conservative as a personal protest against the murder of MPs. It doesn't affect the outcome. The argument is, nor should it.

Are you *differentially* opposed to the murder of mps, and confident of getting through to the right audience?

What? I agree with FF43. Vote Tory in Southend West! (And, if that's what you were asking, I equally oppose murdering anyone else too.)

That's what differentially means to me, sure. I just don't think a vote for a lying slob complicit in the unnecessary abandonment of civilians to possible murder in Kabul sends the message you want. The opposite actually

Mmm, I see. I think voting Tory in Southend W won't be interpreted as a vote of confidence in British Afghanistan policy, though - just a message to murderers not to bother, you just get another MP with similar views. There will be other opportunities to express a view on the virtues or otherwise of Conservative government.

I do think it's surprising that a far-left groupuscule hasn't had a go, through. Someone like TUSC might even have saved their deposit and certainly got a fair amount of coverage.

If I had been one of the nutter candidates I would have rebadged as Anti Corruption Publish Gray In Full Now. Definite deposit saver, at least

MrEd said:

HYUFD said:

MrEd said:

HYUFD said:

MrEd said:

HYUFD said:

MrEd said:

IshmaelZ said:

MattW said:

IshmaelZ said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

IshmaelZ said:

Startling if true

https://mobile.twitter.com/MuslimCensus/status/1487094934658293771

POLL FINDINGS Police cars revolving light

@UKLabour at risk of losing 55% of their Muslim vote from the 2019 General Election.

No idea about voodoo status of poll

Where is it going then

Muslim Census

@MuslimCensus

·

17h

Replying to

@MuslimCensus

Voting intentions (23rd-26th Jan): Labour – 38% (-40) Undecided – 19% Will not vote – 18% (+10) Green Party – 8% (+7) Liberal Democrats – 4% (+1) SNP – 3% (-1) Conservatives – 2% (-1) Other – 8% (+5)

Aren't those self-selecting web polls?

On the one I checked, 75% of the sample was under-27, and they seem to think this is 'representative of British Muslims'.

They say they weight

https://muslimcensus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/themuslimvote-sample.pdf

If the Corbynites do form their own party, there’s an obvious structural threat to Labour here - namely the new party aligns with the Greens, effectively take it over (organisationally) and then targets the same core groups which are the bedrock of Labour support via their different ‘brands’ (urban professionals - the Greens; ethnic minority, predominately Muslim - the Corbynites). How does Labour counteract that?

By targeting the centre.

It would likely never happen absent PR anyway

Trouble with that is (a) the centre is quite mushy (b) that would mean Labour abandoning principles that even its more centrist members like eg abandoning its opposition to public schools (c) by its very nature, people in the centre don’t tend to do the heavy lifting etc because they are not enthused by a particular ideology (d) it would effectively mean the recreation of the Liberal-SDP alliance of the 80s (with Labour as the SDP) with all the negative baggage that comes with that.

New Labour won from the centre from 1997 to 2010 despite plenty of leftwingers voting Charles Kennedy LD, Green, Respect etc. It also did not abolish public schools.

The only thing keeping the 2 main parties together is FPTP. If we had PR the Corbynite left of Labour would form their own party, most of the remaining ex Remainers in the Tory party would form their own party too and RefUK would win seats as well

New Labour won not because it was centrist but because people were pissed off with the Tories and, more importantly, Labour de-toxified the brand enough where many voters did not feel threatened enough to vote against it.

If you want to look at how much people feared Labour back in 1992, consider that the Tory vote then has never been exceeded by any party ever in any election, despite the increase in the size of the electorate. That goes for the 2019 Tory victory as well.

Crucially, New Labour also combined that with a ruthless organisational and PR strategy.

1997 was an aberration in British politics caused by a very unique set of circumstances. Centrist parties generally don’t win.

The more centrist party won in 1992, 1997, 2001, 2005, 2015 and 2017 and arguably 2019. It also won most seats in 2010.

The only times since WW2 the more centrist of the 2 main parties has lost were 1945, 1950, 1964, 1966, 1974 and 1979

More centrist is not the same as centrist.

The Tories of 1992 were not centrist nor in 2017 and 2019, they were decidedly right of centre. Same goes for the GE of 2010 but Cameron moderated his stance because he needed to go into coalition.

Labour portrayed itself as centrist in 1997 but moved more left wing (particularly on cultural issues) as the elections moved on. It also remained a left wing party.

The closest it can be said a centrist party has been to political power is the Liberal-SDP alliance of the early 80s.

MrEd said:

Theuniondivvie said:

DavidL said:

noneoftheabove said:

Leon said:

An insightful essay about EU Europeans who quit Britain and left after the Brexit vote. What they miss, do they regret, etc


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/29/brexit-pubs-curry-pg-tips-but-not-weather-what-exiles-miss-about-uk?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


Not one of them, not a single one, even mentions the possibility that they understand why the British voted to Leave on the grounds of sovereignty and democracy. Most of them claim to love the UK, they do not love it, because love means understanding. Nor does the concept that Britain is admirable BECAUSE it is different and seeks self-rule and tries to be properly democratic even enter their tiny minds

Fuck em

Your post is a great example of world leading empathy and self awareness.

More significantly the Guardian seems somewhat less interested in the 3.5m-6m who have chosen to stay: https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/07/02/are-there-really-6m-eu-citizens-living-in-the-uk/

Roughly a minimum of 10x those who chose to leave, even after Covid destroyed many EU citizens jobs here.

But, whatever. Remainers need to moan, we get that.

Brexiteers need to moan about Remainers, we get that.
Indeed it's the very lifeblood of some PBers.

And some pro-Indy Scot PBers need to moan about how bad the rest of the U.K. is, the country is awful etc etc. We get that too.

MrEd said:

Benpointer said:

Leon said:

Benpointer said:

OldKingCole said:

NickPalmer said:

Leon said:

I am haunted by the figure of Bill Bryson’s grandfather (IIRC) who became so bored in retirement he used to carefully fill in all the “o”s in books with a pen

Bryson found this inexplicable until he went to Tromso to look for the Northern Lights but had to wait three weeks - with nothing else to do. By the third week he got out his pen…

When my father retired, he was really looking forward to it - lots more time to do his favourite things, like reading French literature. After a few months, he commented that a problem was that many of his interests weren't scalable - he actually didn't want to read literature 6 or 7 hours a day. But he adjusted, gave space to second-level things that he'd never given time to at all. Towards his death, even with mild dementia, he said he was happier than he'd ever been - something that warms me whenever I think back about him.

It's one model. Another is just to defy retirement. I'm 72 next week, and have three enjoyable paid jobs and one unpaid job (CLP Chair). I can see myself scaling that back gradually if illness or just tiredness start to appear, but just switching off and doing nothing lacks appeal. Perhaps you should plan to continute knapping flints, writing about travel as you do so well, or whatever you currently enjoy, and shrug off each age milestone.

The internet helps, either way. Unless you go blind, you can pursue any interest whatever from an armchair, with any number of contacts sharing that interest. Bill Bryson's grandfather might have felt differently with that.

I retired at 65 and was told by my colleagues that after a couple of weeks they'd see me back. I think I went back to do a couple of projects for a few weeks, then called that a day. I did, though, do a couple of projects for other people, on a very part-time basis, but then at 70 called it a day, professionally. What with insurance, and professional registration fees and assorted requirements it was too demanding.
Mrs C and I did a few cricket tours, watching England, and of course spent some family time with grandchildren. As some were in Thailand we spent some time there, and used it as a base for travelling.
We had some European holidays trips, too.
Back home we both joined the u3a and took part in activities there. And we joined interest groups in the town to which we'd moved.
It's been more difficult, travelling wise over the last few year, what with the pandemic and me getting somewhat less mobile, but we both use the internet and especially Zoom and FaceTime.
And, of course, we read.

So I agree with Mr P; Bill Bryson's grandfather might have felt differently if he's had t'internet!.

My mum died suddenly last Sunday aged 84, in poor health physically (confined to her house) but mentally still sharp.

Despite the restrictions of Covid, I think her past couple of years have been some of her happiest because of one thing: FaceTime.

She couldn't/wouldn't use a computer but we persuaded her to try an iPad for FaceTime and she got the hang of it and loved seeing and chatting to her grandchildren, who were good at calling her regularly. I was able to speak to her on it most days, too.

So thank-you Apple and the internet for that.

Sorry to hear that. Glad she had a good ending

Thanks @Leon. It was, as the per the cliche, exactly as she'd have wanted to go, so she was lucky there.

Condolences on your loss @benpointer but good to hear that she went in such a way

kjh said:

kinabalu said:

kjh said:

kjh said:

IshmaelZ said:

tlg86 said:

Daveyboy1961 said:

tlg86 said:

Foxy said:

No_Offence_Alan said:

Farooq said:

Sandpit said:

Daveyboy1961 said:

Daveyboy1961 said:

Sandpit said:

Jonathan said:

See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?

And of course he was such a success as Foreign Secretary, (a lady in an iraqi prison stirs...another he threw under the bus)

Edit : Iranian

Iranian woman, Iranian prison.

British passport holder. What's your point, caller?

So is Ghislaine Maxwell. We are not trying to get her out of an American prison.

So are you suggesting that Nasrani was rightfully convicted?

I suspect she was.

Without prejudicing her possible release, could you explain why you suspect that?

Because of what Boris Johnson said. I suspect he was guilty of speaking the truth. That’s not to excuse him, a foreign sec should know what to say. But I suspect it was the truth.

If you had any serious grounds to have a belief one way or the other, you would presumably not be sharing them on here. And Johnson's position is no different whether it was true or not. Indeed if it's false he has merely dropped a uk citizen in the shit, if true he has both done that and compromised uk security.

Spot on. I have liked but wanted to comment as well, particularly as I was going to make the same post. Regardless of whether true or not what Boris said was an appalling blunder. I assume an accident, but if it were me I would struggle to live with myself knowing what I had done.

To add to that, in fairness that is probably a flaw in my own personality. I would hate to ever be in a position where what I did or said impacted other people's lives so much, but people have to (Policemen, Politicians, Lawyers, Doctors, etc, etc). I often think of David Waddington and the Stefan Kisko case because it is so sad. David Waddington later became Governor of Bermuda which had the death penalty at the time. I can't understand how he could have taken that position. It would haunt me.

That's not a flaw.

That is very kind of you @kinabalu but I think it is. Someone has to take responsibility and I am leaving it to others to do that on my behalf.

FF43 said:

Leon said:

An insightful essay about EU Europeans who quit Britain and left after the Brexit vote. What they miss, do they regret, etc


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/29/brexit-pubs-curry-pg-tips-but-not-weather-what-exiles-miss-about-uk?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


But it’s not insightful for the reasons the writer thinks

Not one of them, not a single one, even mentions the possibility that they understand why the British voted to Leave on the grounds of sovereignty and democracy. Most of them claim to love the UK, they do not love it, because love means understanding. Nor does the concept that Britain is admirable BECAUSE it is different and seeks self-rule and tries to be properly democratic even enter their tiny minds

Fuck em

What they miss, as explained in the article, was a niceness about Britain that was lost with Brexit. It was an idea, maybe an illusion. But given people expressing comments similar to yours just now, it's hardly surprising they don't think Britain is so nice now.

MrEd said:

malcolmg said:

MrEd said:

Theuniondivvie said:

DavidL said:

noneoftheabove said:

Leon said:

An insightful essay about EU Europeans who quit Britain and left after the Brexit vote. What they miss, do they regret, etc


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/29/brexit-pubs-curry-pg-tips-but-not-weather-what-exiles-miss-about-uk?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


Not one of them, not a single one, even mentions the possibility that they understand why the British voted to Leave on the grounds of sovereignty and democracy. Most of them claim to love the UK, they do not love it, because love means understanding. Nor does the concept that Britain is admirable BECAUSE it is different and seeks self-rule and tries to be properly democratic even enter their tiny minds

Fuck em

Your post is a great example of world leading empathy and self awareness.

More significantly the Guardian seems somewhat less interested in the 3.5m-6m who have chosen to stay: https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/07/02/are-there-really-6m-eu-citizens-living-in-the-uk/

Roughly a minimum of 10x those who chose to leave, even after Covid destroyed many EU citizens jobs here.

But, whatever. Remainers need to moan, we get that.

Brexiteers need to moan about Remainers, we get that.
Indeed it's the very lifeblood of some PBers.

And some pro-Indy Scot PBers need to moan about how bad the rest of the U.K. is, the country is awful etc etc. We get that too.

When I moan about the UK I am including Scotland , it is no paradise and is almost as crap as UK at present.

Funnily enough, I wasn’t thinking of you when I made that comment but more the likes of @Theuniondivvie who seems to portray Scotland as some sort of paradise as compared to the hell hole of the U.K.

MrEd said:

HYUFD said:

MrEd said:

HYUFD said:

MrEd said:

HYUFD said:

MrEd said:

IshmaelZ said:

MattW said:

IshmaelZ said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

IshmaelZ said:

Startling if true

https://mobile.twitter.com/MuslimCensus/status/1487094934658293771

POLL FINDINGS Police cars revolving light

@UKLabour at risk of losing 55% of their Muslim vote from the 2019 General Election.

No idea about voodoo status of poll

Where is it going then

Muslim Census

@MuslimCensus

·

17h

Replying to

@MuslimCensus

Voting intentions (23rd-26th Jan): Labour – 38% (-40) Undecided – 19% Will not vote – 18% (+10) Green Party – 8% (+7) Liberal Democrats – 4% (+1) SNP – 3% (-1) Conservatives – 2% (-1) Other – 8% (+5)

Aren't those self-selecting web polls?

On the one I checked, 75% of the sample was under-27, and they seem to think this is 'representative of British Muslims'.

They say they weight

https://muslimcensus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/themuslimvote-sample.pdf

If the Corbynites do form their own party, there’s an obvious structural threat to Labour here - namely the new party aligns with the Greens, effectively take it over (organisationally) and then targets the same core groups which are the bedrock of Labour support via their different ‘brands’ (urban professionals - the Greens; ethnic minority, predominately Muslim - the Corbynites). How does Labour counteract that?

By targeting the centre.

It would likely never happen absent PR anyway

Trouble with that is (a) the centre is quite mushy (b) that would mean Labour abandoning principles that even its more centrist members like eg abandoning its opposition to public schools (c) by its very nature, people in the centre don’t tend to do the heavy lifting etc because they are not enthused by a particular ideology (d) it would effectively mean the recreation of the Liberal-SDP alliance of the 80s (with Labour as the SDP) with all the negative baggage that comes with that.

New Labour won from the centre from 1997 to 2010 despite plenty of leftwingers voting Charles Kennedy LD, Green, Respect etc. It also did not abolish public schools.

The only thing keeping the 2 main parties together is FPTP. If we had PR the Corbynite left of Labour would form their own party, most of the remaining ex Remainers in the Tory party would form their own party too and RefUK would win seats as well

New Labour won not because it was centrist but because people were pissed off with the Tories and, more importantly, Labour de-toxified the brand enough where many voters did not feel threatened enough to vote against it.

If you want to look at how much people feared Labour back in 1992, consider that the Tory vote then has never been exceeded by any party ever in any election, despite the increase in the size of the electorate. That goes for the 2019 Tory victory as well.

Crucially, New Labour also combined that with a ruthless organisational and PR strategy.

1997 was an aberration in British politics caused by a very unique set of circumstances. Centrist parties generally don’t win.

The more centrist party won in 1992, 1997, 2001, 2005, 2015 and 2017 and arguably 2019. It also won most seats in 2010.

The only times since WW2 the more centrist of the 2 main parties has lost were 1945, 1950, 1964, 1966, 1974 and 1979

More centrist is not the same as centrist.

The Tories of 1992 were not centrist nor in 2017 and 2019, they were decidedly right of centre. Same goes for the GE of 2010 but Cameron moderated his stance because he needed to go into coalition.

Labour portrayed itself as centrist in 1997 but moved more left wing (particularly on cultural issues) as the elections moved on. It also remained a left wing party.

The closest it can be said a centrist party has been to political power is the Liberal-SDP alliance of the early 80s.

malcolmg said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Foxy said:

DavidL said:

noneoftheabove said:

Leon said:

An insightful essay about EU Europeans who quit Britain and left after the Brexit vote. What they miss, do they regret, etc


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/29/brexit-pubs-curry-pg-tips-but-not-weather-what-exiles-miss-about-uk?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


Not one of them, not a single one, even mentions the possibility that they understand why the British voted to Leave on the grounds of sovereignty and democracy. Most of them claim to love the UK, they do not love it, because love means understanding. Nor does the concept that Britain is admirable BECAUSE it is different and seeks self-rule and tries to be properly democratic even enter their tiny minds

Fuck em

Your post is a great example of world leading empathy and self awareness.

More significantly the Guardian seems somewhat less interested in the 3.5m-6m who have chosen to stay: https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/07/02/are-there-really-6m-eu-citizens-living-in-the-uk/

Roughly a minimum of 10x those who chose to leave, even after Covid destroyed many EU citizens jobs here.

But, whatever. Remainers need to moan, we get that.

I suspect that most Unionists will stay on in Independent Scotland too, but it doesn't mean that they will like it, and mourn their losses.

And every week that goes by by the Corruption Party in government and apparent collusion by the police and the powers that be, the more likely it is that independence will happen. For all that Blackford and the SNP call for Liar to go they really want him to stay as it is self evident to all bar a few on here the damage that the government are doing to the Union.

Lst thing Blackford and Sturgeon want is Liar to go , suits them fine in their panto roles.

kle4 said:

HYUFD said:

MrEd said:

HYUFD said:

MrEd said:

HYUFD said:

MrEd said:

IshmaelZ said:

MattW said:

IshmaelZ said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

IshmaelZ said:

Startling if true

https://mobile.twitter.com/MuslimCensus/status/1487094934658293771

POLL FINDINGS Police cars revolving light

@UKLabour at risk of losing 55% of their Muslim vote from the 2019 General Election.

No idea about voodoo status of poll

Where is it going then

Muslim Census

@MuslimCensus

·

17h

Replying to

@MuslimCensus

Voting intentions (23rd-26th Jan): Labour – 38% (-40) Undecided – 19% Will not vote – 18% (+10) Green Party – 8% (+7) Liberal Democrats – 4% (+1) SNP – 3% (-1) Conservatives – 2% (-1) Other – 8% (+5)

Aren't those self-selecting web polls?

On the one I checked, 75% of the sample was under-27, and they seem to think this is 'representative of British Muslims'.

They say they weight

https://muslimcensus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/themuslimvote-sample.pdf

If the Corbynites do form their own party, there’s an obvious structural threat to Labour here - namely the new party aligns with the Greens, effectively take it over (organisationally) and then targets the same core groups which are the bedrock of Labour support via their different ‘brands’ (urban professionals - the Greens; ethnic minority, predominately Muslim - the Corbynites). How does Labour counteract that?

By targeting the centre.

It would likely never happen absent PR anyway

Trouble with that is (a) the centre is quite mushy (b) that would mean Labour abandoning principles that even its more centrist members like eg abandoning its opposition to public schools (c) by its very nature, people in the centre don’t tend to do the heavy lifting etc because they are not enthused by a particular ideology (d) it would effectively mean the recreation of the Liberal-SDP alliance of the 80s (with Labour as the SDP) with all the negative baggage that comes with that.

New Labour won from the centre from 1997 to 2010 despite plenty of leftwingers voting Charles Kennedy LD, Green, Respect etc. It also did not abolish public schools.

The only thing keeping the 2 main parties together is FPTP. If we had PR the Corbynite left of Labour would form their own party, most of the remaining ex Remainers in the Tory party would form their own party too and RefUK would win seats as well

New Labour won not because it was centrist but because people were pissed off with the Tories and, more importantly, Labour de-toxified the brand enough where many voters did not feel threatened enough to vote against it.

If you want to look at how much people feared Labour back in 1992, consider that the Tory vote then has never been exceeded by any party ever in any election, despite the increase in the size of the electorate. That goes for the 2019 Tory victory as well.

Crucially, New Labour also combined that with a ruthless organisational and PR strategy.

1997 was an aberration in British politics caused by a very unique set of circumstances. Centrist parties generally don’t win.

The more centrist party won in 1992, 1997, 2001, 2005, 2015 and 2017 and arguably 2019. It also won most seats in 2010.

The only times since WW2 the more centrist of the 2 main parties has lost were 1945, 1950, 1964, 1966, 1974 and 1979

Am I missing something here? That's 8-6, and one of the 8 you put down as 'arguable', so it would seem that it's almost 50/50.

RochdalePioneers said:

DavidL said:

darkage said:

noneoftheabove said:

Leon said:

An insightful essay about EU Europeans who quit Britain and left after the Brexit vote. What they miss, do they regret, etc


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/29/brexit-pubs-curry-pg-tips-but-not-weather-what-exiles-miss-about-uk?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


Not one of them, not a single one, even mentions the possibility that they understand why the British voted to Leave on the grounds of sovereignty and democracy. Most of them claim to love the UK, they do not love it, because love means understanding. Nor does the concept that Britain is admirable BECAUSE it is different and seeks self-rule and tries to be properly democratic even enter their tiny minds

Fuck em

Your post is a great example of world leading empathy and self awareness.

My wife is an EU citizen and hasn't left. We are both deeply nostalgic for pre Brexit Britain.
I suppose the nostalgia we feel is similar to that felt by Brexit voters in 2016, who hoped for a return of the pre mass immigration era.
But the reality is that both worlds have passed. They are gone forever and aren't coming back. We have to make what we can of the new reality.

I think that is a realistic approach. The reality is that we will still have much higher immigration than many wanted because our economy has been fed a diet of unlimited labour for a long time and is addicted to it. The change towards higher productivity, better training, more capital investment, better wages etc will not happen overnight and possibly not even at all unless we prioritise it. We really need to focus on seeking to change these things, however we voted.

Agreed - the question is how. A starter for 10 - how do we grow productivity to drive real growth in the economy when we have just made trade difficult and goods more expensive than they need to be? Whatever efficiencies we can try to gain from productivity get more than offset in the loss of output from lower trade and higher costs.

This is why this Brexiteer keeps banging on about Boris's Border Operating Model not working. Aside from a few nutters nobody voted for Brexit because they wanted to be worse off. And yet worse off they are being made because your government are stupid and certain people provide them succour for stupid.

kle4 said:

RochdalePioneers said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

DavidL said:

noneoftheabove said:

Leon said:

An insightful essay about EU Europeans who quit Britain and left after the Brexit vote. What they miss, do they regret, etc


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/29/brexit-pubs-curry-pg-tips-but-not-weather-what-exiles-miss-about-uk?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


Not one of them, not a single one, even mentions the possibility that they understand why the British voted to Leave on the grounds of sovereignty and democracy. Most of them claim to love the UK, they do not love it, because love means understanding. Nor does the concept that Britain is admirable BECAUSE it is different and seeks self-rule and tries to be properly democratic even enter their tiny minds

Fuck em

Your post is a great example of world leading empathy and self awareness.

More significantly the Guardian seems somewhat less interested in the 3.5m-6m who have chosen to stay: https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/07/02/are-there-really-6m-eu-citizens-living-in-the-uk/

Roughly a minimum of 10x those who chose to leave, even after Covid destroyed many EU citizens jobs here.

But, whatever. Remainers need to moan, we get that.

I suspect that most Unionists will stay on in Independent Scotland too, but it doesn't mean that they will like it, and mourn their losses.

If it comes to that I am not sure what we would do to be honest. A lot depends on family which is more important than countries but I can see the balance of our family edging south over the next few years. As a Scots lawyer I will have to hang around until I retire. After that I am not so sure. But the views of those who choose to remain will still be more relevant than the views of those who choose to depart.

Scotland - at least my corner of it - is already far more welcoming to incomers than England is. I can't see how independence suddenly creates an anti-English or anti-Unionist hate that would force people out

How are you judging these things? If my corner of England is very welcoming does that prove all England is? If my corner is less so does that prove the other way?

eek said:

HYUFD said:

eek said:

RochdalePioneers said:

HYUFD said:

RochdalePioneers said:

HYUFD said:

RochdalePioneers said:

HYUFD said:

Beibheirli_C said:

eek said:

There is a great article in Sinn Feinnand Irish unity at https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/sinn-fein-and-the-re-greening-of-ireland-unification-elections-northern-ireland-republic

Well worth a read

An interesting article. Thank you for the link.

A federal Ireland with the North keeping Stormont and its own elections would address a lot of issues and might well be acceptable to a portion of the Unionist population. The Irish Sea border is certainly assisting people in thinking in that direction since that is almost how things stand at the moment.

But will not be for much longer once DUP ministers ban checks on goods going to and from NI and GB which Truss will not oppose

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-checks-dup-liz-truss-b2002745.html

You truly are a fool They have no power to do such a thing. If they did have they would already have done so. The operation of the NI side of the GB NI hard border is with the NI Office, not the devolved administration.

They do.

The DUP ministers are about to rip the Irish Sea border to pieces.

Truss has correctly made clear the UK government will not do a thing to stop them as Boris has given her responsibility for it, the NI office will be powerless if Truss rightly orders them to do nothing

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-checks-dup-liz-truss-b2002745.html

I know that you are fundamentally a parrot so won't understand this, so lets go slowly.

No, they don't. Read the article. The proposal is that the DUP "block" the checks. As they don;t have any power over them every other party on the executive has pointed out that it is a stunt. Because civil servants in the NI Office who run the border would be obliged to ignore the DUP.

Truss is saying they won't intervene because the government would implement the pull on checks. Because the NI Office runs them, not the assembly.

I have to assume that you know this, you aren't that ignorant. So you are repeating a lie thinking we are stupid. We are not. Perhaps you are?

Civil servants in NI report to the UK government. As Truss makes clear she will not block the decision of elected DUP ministers to block the checks.

And if that does not work the DUP have also made clear they will walk out of the Stormont Executive and effectively end the Good Friday Agreement until the Irish Sea border is removed

Correct - civil servants in NI report to the UK government. So Poots has zero power to order anything.

So why do you keep saying that he does?

It’s the same as his continual statements that the DUP will quite Stormont. They can’t because as soon as they do the last hurdles that are stopping abortions from occurring in NI can be removed by the Northern Ireland Secretary who needs the issue resolved before he becomes in contempt of court (latter doesn’t mean anything but the DUP quitting Stormont isn’t the win HYUFD thinks it will be.

Of course it is. It will stop DUP leakage to the TUV once the DUP quit Stormont until the Irish Sea border is removed.

Abortion is already legal in NI anyway even though the DUP opposed that. However the DUP have lost votes because of the NIP not abortion. Indeed the DUP have even won some votes from pro life Catholics over abortion

Abortions are currently not occurring in NI due to the DUP blocking hospitals from providing them.

That’s the point I’ve so far pointed out to you twice that you can’t grasp. The TUV can’t lose, stay in Stormont and the TUV talk about Borders, kill Stormont and there are a different set of issues ready to use.

RochdalePioneers said:

kle4 said:

RochdalePioneers said:

DavidL said:

Foxy said:

DavidL said:

noneoftheabove said:

Leon said:

An insightful essay about EU Europeans who quit Britain and left after the Brexit vote. What they miss, do they regret, etc


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/29/brexit-pubs-curry-pg-tips-but-not-weather-what-exiles-miss-about-uk?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other


Not one of them, not a single one, even mentions the possibility that they understand why the British voted to Leave on the grounds of sovereignty and democracy. Most of them claim to love the UK, they do not love it, because love means understanding. Nor does the concept that Britain is admirable BECAUSE it is different and seeks self-rule and tries to be properly democratic even enter their tiny minds

Fuck em

Your post is a great example of world leading empathy and self awareness.

More significantly the Guardian seems somewhat less interested in the 3.5m-6m who have chosen to stay: https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/07/02/are-there-really-6m-eu-citizens-living-in-the-uk/

Roughly a minimum of 10x those who chose to leave, even after Covid destroyed many EU citizens jobs here.

But, whatever. Remainers need to moan, we get that.

I suspect that most Unionists will stay on in Independent Scotland too, but it doesn't mean that they will like it, and mourn their losses.

If it comes to that I am not sure what we would do to be honest. A lot depends on family which is more important than countries but I can see the balance of our family edging south over the next few years. As a Scots lawyer I will have to hang around until I retire. After that I am not so sure. But the views of those who choose to remain will still be more relevant than the views of those who choose to depart.

Scotland - at least my corner of it - is already far more welcoming to incomers than England is. I can't see how independence suddenly creates an anti-English or anti-Unionist hate that would force people out

How are you judging these things? If my corner of England is very welcoming does that prove all England is? If my corner is less so does that prove the other way?

How am I judging it? I've lived in various parts of England, I've seen the way that the English national psyche has turned more insular and nasty towards the other (the rise of the BNP then UKIP then Brexit and "fuck em" upthread). That England is no longer as open and tolerant as it was feels self-evident though I know the fuck em brigade will disagree.

And Scotland? I totally accept that my corner is not automatically representative. But then again I look at the Scottish government's "New Scots" policy and them having just won a 4th term on a record vote in a record turnout and conclude that there must be some merit in my argument.

There are so many wonderful people in England. There will be many nobbers in Scotland. But the direction of travel south of the wall feels a lot worse than north of it - and I have friends living in England in despair at what is happening to society.

Benpointer said:

Leon said:

Benpointer said:

Leon said:

kjh said:

Leon said:

kjh said:

Heathener said:

On the previous thread (apologies Pip) HYUFD claimed that Boris was hated by Remainers because we blame him for Brexit and hated on the Left because he won in 2019.

I don't blame Boris particularly for either.

1. The Brexit win was the brainchild of Dom Cummings but what amazes me about this is that over 5 years later, the people obsessing about Brexit aren't my former remainer friends, it's Brexiteers. They go on and on and on and on and on about it. Some of the articles are pure paranoia. It's not just people like HY and Leon on here, it's writers in the Telegraph and Paul Staines on order-order etc.

Although I'm sad about what happened in 2016 I don't spend my life thinking about it. I have a thousand other things that matter more right now and I don't envisage any bandwagon to rejoin: something which again I just find the most bizarre obsession amongst Brexiteers.

I also don't 'blame' Boris. Johnson jumped late onto the andwagon for pure career opportunism. But it was a decision of the British people in a fair vote.

It's almost as if this obsession amongst Brexiteers suggests that they are paranoid? Or mentally unwell. Seriously, and that's not a term I use lightly.

2. 2019. I don't blame Boris for winning in 2019. If I were to blame anyone it would be the Labour Party for electing as a leader a man who was unfit to lead them or to present himself to the country for high office.

But, again, ultimately it was the British people who chose Boris Johnson so how am I supposed to blame Boris?

As for the man himself, many people responded brilliantly with all the flaws in Boris Johnson so there's no need for me to repeat them. He is manifestly unfit for the job in every political and moral sense.

He will take down the tory party if they don't take him down first.

Regarding your comment about those obsessed with Brexit you are spot on. I hadn't considered this before but all my posts on Brexit are in response to Brexiters raising the issue. I don't believe I have ever made a post on the subject since the 2019 election otherwise. Could be wrong.

OK. Let’s check that theory. It’s quite simple to do

Who is the first person to raise the question of Brexit on this brand new thread? Ah yes. A demented Remainer @heatherner in a 12 paragraph comment which is all about Brexit where he moans that it is only Brexiteers that are obsessed with Brexit

lol

Not very scientific Leon :

a) sample of 1

b) refers to a thread full of it contradicting suggestion

c) Exaggeration - 10 paras

d) Doesn't answer example I have given (admittedly also a sample of 1)

Because it’s 3pm here and my day’s work is done and it’s actually too hot to do anything but lie inert in the pool I went and checked the last 5 threads to see who first mentions the Brexit word on each one

Yes yes. Peak Nerdery

It’s an interesting exercise. In three of the threads it is definite Remainers. @IanB2 @TimS and @Heathener

The other two are

@bigjohnowls whose Brexit vote is a mystery to me

And

@MISTY who is so new to the site it is hard to say, but I’d guess perhaps Leave, but I don’t wish to presume

So the theory that it’s brexiteers who keep bringing it up unprompted is provably and empirically wrong. Which is quite a satisfying waste of my time

Time wasted well. An early glimpse of retirement for you my friend. ;-)

I am haunted by the figure of Bill Bryson’s grandfather (IIRC) who became so bored in retirement he used to carefully fill in all the “o”s in books with a pen

Bryson found this inexplicable until he went to Tromso to look for the Northern Lights but had to wait three weeks - with nothing else to do. By the third week he got out his pen…

Bit harsh on Tomsø. We went for a week a few years ago, hired a car and explored the area - the scenery is spectacular. Great seafood too (though eye-waveringly expensive).

Saw the Northern Lights on day 5 too, so all good. Will go back someday.

Edit: Lol - "eye-waveringly expensive" - I couldn't bear to look at the prices.

Benpointer said:

OldKingCole said:

NickPalmer said:

Leon said:

I am haunted by the figure of Bill Bryson’s grandfather (IIRC) who became so bored in retirement he used to carefully fill in all the “o”s in books with a pen

Bryson found this inexplicable until he went to Tromso to look for the Northern Lights but had to wait three weeks - with nothing else to do. By the third week he got out his pen…

When my father retired, he was really looking forward to it - lots more time to do his favourite things, like reading French literature. After a few months, he commented that a problem was that many of his interests weren't scalable - he actually didn't want to read literature 6 or 7 hours a day. But he adjusted, gave space to second-level things that he'd never given time to at all. Towards his death, even with mild dementia, he said he was happier than he'd ever been - something that warms me whenever I think back about him.

It's one model. Another is just to defy retirement. I'm 72 next week, and have three enjoyable paid jobs and one unpaid job (CLP Chair). I can see myself scaling that back gradually if illness or just tiredness start to appear, but just switching off and doing nothing lacks appeal. Perhaps you should plan to continute knapping flints, writing about travel as you do so well, or whatever you currently enjoy, and shrug off each age milestone.

The internet helps, either way. Unless you go blind, you can pursue any interest whatever from an armchair, with any number of contacts sharing that interest. Bill Bryson's grandfather might have felt differently with that.

I retired at 65 and was told by my colleagues that after a couple of weeks they'd see me back. I think I went back to do a couple of projects for a few weeks, then called that a day. I did, though, do a couple of projects for other people, on a very part-time basis, but then at 70 called it a day, professionally. What with insurance, and professional registration fees and assorted requirements it was too demanding.
Mrs C and I did a few cricket tours, watching England, and of course spent some family time with grandchildren. As some were in Thailand we spent some time there, and used it as a base for travelling.
We had some European holidays trips, too.
Back home we both joined the u3a and took part in activities there. And we joined interest groups in the town to which we'd moved.
It's been more difficult, travelling wise over the last few year, what with the pandemic and me getting somewhat less mobile, but we both use the internet and especially Zoom and FaceTime.
And, of course, we read.

So I agree with Mr P; Bill Bryson's grandfather might have felt differently if he's had t'internet!.

My mum died suddenly last Sunday aged 84, in poor health physically (confined to her house) but mentally still sharp.

Despite the restrictions of Covid, I think her past couple of years have been some of her happiest because of one thing: FaceTime.

She couldn't/wouldn't use a computer but we persuaded her to try an iPad for FaceTime and she got the hang of it and loved seeing and chatting to her grandchildren, who were good at calling her regularly. I was able to speak to her on it most days, too.

So thank-you Apple and the internet for that.

Pro_Rata said:

On topic:
I think extrapolating from Batley & Spen 2016 is the right approach here, and the question is - what is the worst the Tories can realistically do. So here is my back of envelope stab.

Conservative support:
- Labour retained 80% of their vote count in B&S from GE 15.
- Let's say this was 60% of Labour 2015 voters plus a decent chunk of solidarity vote LDs, Cons and even a few UKIP voters.
- The opposition being fringe to far right after a far right murder also helped drive solidarity vote in B&S. Likely to be less so where the murder is Islamist in nature.
- I don't recall the slightest hint that the fate of Corbyn rested on B&S. For Boris, there is just that - the tiniest, slightest hint - that this might be influential, but it's hardly the zeitgeist.
- So, I think sub-50% GE19 Tory turnout, plus much lower solidarity voting will halve the Tory vote, but there will be some, and I'm thinking the floor figure is around 12000.
- (Tory GE vote retention I'd certainly expect to be comfortably higher, even with abstentionism than the 34% achieved in North Shrops where LD as a ready alternative).

Others support:
- In normal circumstances and looking at B&S and Southend West over the years, the optimal ceiling vote for fringe parties is around 20% of GE turnout, which would equate to around 9000 votes.
- In B&S 2016, fringe parties won 3900 votes, something under half the 8000-10000 won in GE2015, 2019, and in BE 2021. UKIP plus ED were just shy of 8000 in SW in 2015.
- There is a decent overlap between those who would consider the fringe and those who still think Boris is a bit of a lad.
- Campaign hasn't had the sort of prominence needed to set light to a third party vote.
- That said Boris's unpopularity may drive a few who would never normally consider the fringe to do so (indeed I've said I'd consider it if I were a voter here).
- Nonetheless, I think we're suboptimal for a fringe party here and, even if I expect the vote to concentrate heavily to UKIP, I'd put a 6000 top value on what I think they can achieve.

So, I think worst realistic result for the Tories here looks about a 65/30 win over UKIP, well short of the 86/bits of B&S 2016.

Anything below 12000 and 2/3 of the vote is utterly dire territory if we're being honest.

OldKingCole said:

kle4 said:

kjh said:

kinabalu said:

kjh said:

kjh said:

IshmaelZ said:

tlg86 said:

Daveyboy1961 said:

tlg86 said:

Foxy said:

No_Offence_Alan said:

Farooq said:

Sandpit said:

Daveyboy1961 said:

Daveyboy1961 said:

Sandpit said:

Jonathan said:

See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?

And of course he was such a success as Foreign Secretary, (a lady in an iraqi prison stirs...another he threw under the bus)

Edit : Iranian

Iranian woman, Iranian prison.

British passport holder. What's your point, caller?

So is Ghislaine Maxwell. We are not trying to get her out of an American prison.

So are you suggesting that Nasrani was rightfully convicted?

I suspect she was.

Without prejudicing her possible release, could you explain why you suspect that?

Because of what Boris Johnson said. I suspect he was guilty of speaking the truth. That’s not to excuse him, a foreign sec should know what to say. But I suspect it was the truth.

If you had any serious grounds to have a belief one way or the other, you would presumably not be sharing them on here. And Johnson's position is no different whether it was true or not. Indeed if it's false he has merely dropped a uk citizen in the shit, if true he has both done that and compromised uk security.

Spot on. I have liked but wanted to comment as well, particularly as I was going to make the same post. Regardless of whether true or not what Boris said was an appalling blunder. I assume an accident, but if it were me I would struggle to live with myself knowing what I had done.

To add to that, in fairness that is probably a flaw in my own personality. I would hate to ever be in a position where what I did or said impacted other people's lives so much, but people have to (Policemen, Politicians, Lawyers, Doctors, etc, etc). I often think of David Waddington and the Stefan Kisko case because it is so sad. David Waddington later became Governor of Bermuda which had the death penalty at the time. I can't understand how he could have taken that position. It would haunt me.

That's not a flaw.

That is very kind of you @kinabalu but I think it is. Someone has to take responsibility and I am leaving it to others to do that on my behalf.

In my more sombre moments I reflect on if my own general passivity in all things is a flaw, at least to the level I take it. I don't think eschewing such responsibility is at that point, but it makes me wonder.

If there's one thing about old age it's that you can't go on fighting all the battles all the time.

kle4 said:

kjh said:

kinabalu said:

kjh said:

kjh said:

IshmaelZ said:

tlg86 said:

Daveyboy1961 said:

tlg86 said:

Foxy said:

No_Offence_Alan said:

Farooq said:

Sandpit said:

Daveyboy1961 said:

Daveyboy1961 said:

Sandpit said:

Jonathan said:

See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?

And of course he was such a success as Foreign Secretary, (a lady in an iraqi prison stirs...another he threw under the bus)

Edit : Iranian

Iranian woman, Iranian prison.

British passport holder. What's your point, caller?

So is Ghislaine Maxwell. We are not trying to get her out of an American prison.

So are you suggesting that Nasrani was rightfully convicted?

I suspect she was.

Without prejudicing her possible release, could you explain why you suspect that?

Because of what Boris Johnson said. I suspect he was guilty of speaking the truth. That’s not to excuse him, a foreign sec should know what to say. But I suspect it was the truth.

If you had any serious grounds to have a belief one way or the other, you would presumably not be sharing them on here. And Johnson's position is no different whether it was true or not. Indeed if it's false he has merely dropped a uk citizen in the shit, if true he has both done that and compromised uk security.

Spot on. I have liked but wanted to comment as well, particularly as I was going to make the same post. Regardless of whether true or not what Boris said was an appalling blunder. I assume an accident, but if it were me I would struggle to live with myself knowing what I had done.

To add to that, in fairness that is probably a flaw in my own personality. I would hate to ever be in a position where what I did or said impacted other people's lives so much, but people have to (Policemen, Politicians, Lawyers, Doctors, etc, etc). I often think of David Waddington and the Stefan Kisko case because it is so sad. David Waddington later became Governor of Bermuda which had the death penalty at the time. I can't understand how he could have taken that position. It would haunt me.

That's not a flaw.

That is very kind of you @kinabalu but I think it is. Someone has to take responsibility and I am leaving it to others to do that on my behalf.

In my more sombre moments I reflect on if my own general passivity in all things is a flaw, at least to the level I take it. I don't think eschewing such responsibility is at that point, but it makes me wonder.