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The Tories should sweep the board in Southend West – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,707
edited February 2022 in General
imageThe Tories should sweep the board in Southend West – politicalbetting.com

Double digit poll deficits. The Parliamentary Party in open civil war*. On the wrong side of the public on the biggest issues of the day. Yes: October 2016 was a terrible time for Labour to defend a by-election in Batley and Spen.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,208
    First and I agree with Pip Moss. Turnout could be very low.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,074
    My name is Robert Smithson, and I agree with this header.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    edited January 2022
    I agree with Pip.

    In fairness to Mike, who tipped the <50% bet, the polls have shifted in the Tories favour in the intervening week. They could easily have gone the other way. Johnson saved by the incompetence of the Metropolitan Police.
  • Options
    pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,134
    tlg86 said:

    First and I agree with Pip Moss. Turnout could be very low.

    Indeed. A quick Google reveals turnout in Batley & Spen was 25.8%; the post-War record is 18.2% for Manchester Central in 2012. I wonder if there's any danger of the latter being broken?
  • Options
    HeathenerHeathener Posts: 5,422
    edited January 2022
    On the previous thread (apologies Pip) HYUFD claimed that Boris was hated by Remainers because we blame him for Brexit and hated on the Left because he won in 2019.

    I don't blame Boris particularly for either.

    1. The Brexit win was the brainchild of Dom Cummings but what amazes me about this is that over 5 years later, the people obsessing about Brexit aren't my former remainer friends, it's Brexiteers. They go on and on and on and on and on about it. Some of the articles are pure paranoia. It's not just people like HY and Leon on here, it's writers in the Telegraph and Paul Staines on order-order etc.

    Although I'm sad about what happened in 2016 I don't spend my life thinking about it. I have a thousand other things that matter more right now and I don't envisage any bandwagon to rejoin: something which again I just find the most bizarre obsession amongst Brexiteers.

    I also don't 'blame' Boris. Johnson jumped late onto the andwagon for pure career opportunism. But it was a decision of the British people in a fair vote.

    It's almost as if this obsession amongst Brexiteers suggests that they are paranoid? Or mentally unwell. Seriously, and that's not a term I use lightly.

    2. 2019. I don't blame Boris for winning in 2019. If I were to blame anyone it would be the Labour Party for electing as a leader a man who was unfit to lead them or to present himself to the country for high office.

    But, again, ultimately it was the British people who chose Boris Johnson so how am I supposed to blame Boris?

    As for the man himself, many people responded brilliantly with all the flaws in Boris Johnson so there's no need for me to repeat them. He is manifestly unfit for the job in every political and moral sense.

    He will take down the tory party if they don't take him down first.
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,801
    pigeon said:

    @StuartDickson Incompetence? That's generous of you. As others have pointed out, the miraculous timing of Plod - turning up at the Cabinet Office in his size thirteens just before the Gray report was due to drop and filleting it - is a remarkable coincidence, to put it mildly.

    I think this will turn out to be incompetence, rather than a strategically convenient blunder.

    The perception that Johnson was saved by police corruption is not positive for anyone. Better to resolve this by a jovial slap on the wrist for all involved, and move on.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,078
    Mornin' all! Bit brighter this morning as we inch towards February.

    On topic, just had a quick look at the Southend Echo's website and there's no mention of election activity whatsoever. Shall try and contact my grandson and his wife, both Southend W voters, over the weekend, and get a thought or two.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    darkage said:

    pigeon said:

    @StuartDickson Incompetence? That's generous of you. As others have pointed out, the miraculous timing of Plod - turning up at the Cabinet Office in his size thirteens just before the Gray report was due to drop and filleting it - is a remarkable coincidence, to put it mildly.

    I think this will turn out to be incompetence, rather than a strategically convenient blunder.

    The perception that Johnson was saved by police corruption is not positive for anyone. Better to resolve this by a jovial slap on the wrist for all involved, and move on.
    Judging by @Cyclefree and others contributions, eradicating police corruption in England is a gargantuan task, requiring an extraordinarily effective central government. That looks profoundly unlikely, even in the long-term.

    Periodic incompetence exists in all individuals and organisations, even when corrupt behaviour is totally absent. That is part of the human condition. Until AI takes over…
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,572

    Mornin' all! Bit brighter this morning as we inch towards February.

    On topic, just had a quick look at the Southend Echo's website and there's no mention of election activity whatsoever. Shall try and contact my grandson and his wife, both Southend W voters, over the weekend, and get a thought or two.

    Brightness is a key to the “sense of winter ending”

    The first staging post is when sunset is after 5pm. This year in London that will be 7 February. The other is when “last light” is after 6pm. That’s 21 February.

    Getting there!

    Down in Cornwall you can get the first balmy winds of spring in the 3rd week of February

    Last winter/sprint was the opposite of balmy, however. I seem to recall it lasting until May
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,801

    darkage said:

    pigeon said:

    @StuartDickson Incompetence? That's generous of you. As others have pointed out, the miraculous timing of Plod - turning up at the Cabinet Office in his size thirteens just before the Gray report was due to drop and filleting it - is a remarkable coincidence, to put it mildly.

    I think this will turn out to be incompetence, rather than a strategically convenient blunder.

    The perception that Johnson was saved by police corruption is not positive for anyone. Better to resolve this by a jovial slap on the wrist for all involved, and move on.
    Judging by @Cyclefree and others contributions, eradicating police corruption in England is a gargantuan task, requiring an extraordinarily effective central government. That looks profoundly unlikely, even in the long-term.

    Periodic incompetence exists in all individuals and organisations, even when corrupt behaviour is totally absent. That is part of the human condition. Until AI takes over…
    Thats a good insight @StuartDickson, that others would do well to absorb.
    Incompetence (periodic or otherwise) is a permanent feature of the human condition. It is a fallacy to believe it can be eradicated.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,029
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Jonathan said:

    See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

    Fine by me. The longer Johnson lasts the deeper the hole the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party finds itself in. And the harder it becomes for Scottish Labour and the Scottish Liberal Democrats to ally themselves with thoroughly discredited ‘Muscular Unionism’.

    However, I do feel sorry for the mainland Europeans being used as pawns in the British state’s transparent Divide & Rule modus operandi. Luckily, the big boys in the room, the EU and the USA, see the self-wounded beast as a shadow of what it once was.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,842
    pigeon said:

    tlg86 said:

    First and I agree with Pip Moss. Turnout could be very low.

    Indeed. A quick Google reveals turnout in Batley & Spen was 25.8%; the post-War record is 18.2% for Manchester Central in 2012. I wonder if there's any danger of the latter being broken?
    I think the postal votes and Tories will turnout, as will the various right wing splinter factions.

    I am on turnout of 30-40%, and 40%+; Tory vote share over 80%., for the price of a pizza in a box.

    If I lived there I would spoil my ballot.

    Stinker of a headache this morning.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    eek said:
    Latest polls:

    Ireland
    SF 34%
    FF 24%
    FG 22%

    N Ireland
    SF 25%
    DUP 17%
    All 14%
    UUP 14%
    TUV 12%
    SDLP 11%
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    pigeon said:

    @StuartDickson Incompetence? That's generous of you. As others have pointed out, the miraculous timing of Plod - turning up at the Cabinet Office in his size thirteens just before the Gray report was due to drop and filleting it - is a remarkable coincidence, to put it mildly.

    I think this will turn out to be incompetence, rather than a strategically convenient blunder.

    The perception that Johnson was saved by police corruption is not positive for anyone. Better to resolve this by a jovial slap on the wrist for all involved, and move on.
    Judging by @Cyclefree and others contributions, eradicating police corruption in England is a gargantuan task, requiring an extraordinarily effective central government. That looks profoundly unlikely, even in the long-term.

    Periodic incompetence exists in all individuals and organisations, even when corrupt behaviour is totally absent. That is part of the human condition. Until AI takes over…
    Thats a good insight @StuartDickson, that others would do well to absorb.
    Incompetence (periodic or otherwise) is a permanent feature of the human condition. It is a fallacy to believe it can be eradicated.
    It is a matter of scale.

    I am perhaps incompetent 10% of the time.
    You are perhaps incompetent 5% of the time.
    Robert Smithson is perhaps incompetent 2% of the time.
    Fair dos. We’re probably fairly typical.

    What is hard to stomach is when a head of government is incompetent 80% of the time. But Conservative MPs seem to be quite relaxed about that.
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,021
    Jonathan said:

    See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

    Given his track record as FS, he’s bound to trigger a Russian invasion while he’s there.
  • Options
    Heathener said:

    On the previous thread (apologies Pip) HYUFD claimed that Boris was hated by Remainers because we blame him for Brexit and hated on the Left because he won in 2019.

    I don't blame Boris particularly for either.

    1. The Brexit win was the brainchild of Dom Cummings but what amazes me about this is that over 5 years later, the people obsessing about Brexit aren't my former remainer friends, it's Brexiteers. They go on and on and on and on and on about it. Some of the articles are pure paranoia. It's not just people like HY and Leon on here, it's writers in the Telegraph and Paul Staines on order-order etc.

    Although I'm sad about what happened in 2016 I don't spend my life thinking about it. I have a thousand other things that matter more right now and I don't envisage any bandwagon to rejoin: something which again I just find the most bizarre obsession amongst Brexiteers.

    I also don't 'blame' Boris. Johnson jumped late onto the andwagon for pure career opportunism. But it was a decision of the British people in a fair vote.

    It's almost as if this obsession amongst Brexiteers suggests that they are paranoid? Or mentally unwell. Seriously, and that's not a term I use lightly.

    2. 2019. I don't blame Boris for winning in 2019. If I were to blame anyone it would be the Labour Party for electing as a leader a man who was unfit to lead them or to present himself to the country for high office.

    But, again, ultimately it was the British people who chose Boris Johnson so how am I supposed to blame Boris?

    As for the man himself, many people responded brilliantly with all the flaws in Boris Johnson so there's no need for me to repeat them. He is manifestly unfit for the job in every political and moral sense.

    He will take down the tory party if they don't take him down first.

    Any concrete Brexit will betray the ideals of most Brexit voters, because of the ragtag coalition assembled to win in 2016.

    The only possible exception is those who felt that we had to leave, no matter what or how, as from a burning building.

    This isn't an argument for a quick rejoin, but it does mean that the paranoia is likely to go on for quite some time.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    edited January 2022

    Jonathan said:

    See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

    Fine by me. The longer Johnson lasts the deeper the hole the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party finds itself in. And the harder it becomes for Scottish Labour and the Scottish Liberal Democrats to ally themselves with thoroughly discredited ‘Muscular Unionism’.

    However, I do feel sorry for the mainland Europeans being used as pawns in the British state’s transparent Divide & Rule modus operandi. Luckily, the big boys in the room, the EU and the USA, see the self-wounded beast as a shadow of what it once was.
    Whilst inevitably you view all this through the lens of independence, you’re unfair and short sighted.

    You’re unfair because it is unreasonable to tarnish unionists with the same brush as Boris. You may like to discredit unionists generally in the game of politics, but Boris is out on his own now. On the whole unionists, are decent people you just happen to disagree with on a point you care about. Boris isn’t decent.

    If you think you can escape all this madness and problems this man in number 10 through independence you’re sadly mistaken. Having a this sort of untrustworthy government in England will make an independent Scotlands life very difficult. You will just be even less able to influence it. Much as Brexit has left the U.K. with less influence.

    That’s not an argument against independence, just a assertion that there is work to be done you cannot escape and to claim that Boris is somehow representative of England or Unionism will shoot yourself in the foot.
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Latest YouGov breakdown:

    London
    Lab 47%
    Con 21%
    LD 16%
    Grn 9%

    Rest of South
    Con 39%
    Lab 35%
    LD 13%
    Grn 8%

    Midlands and Wales
    Lab 40%
    Con 35%
    LD 9%

    North
    Lab 44%
    Con 32%
    Grn 7%
    LD 7%

    Scotland
    SNP 53%
    Lab 18%
    Con 18%
    LD 6%

    (YouGov / The Times Survey; Sample Size: 1,656; 26th - 27th January 2022)

    Are the Liberal Democrats nudging up in London? Could be a good May for them. How would it look if they overtook the Conservatives in the capital and former fiefdom of the prime minister?

    Definite signs of Con recovery in the Midlands.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,842
    eek said:
    It is indeed. As good as a PB header 😀
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,572
    eek said:
    By Andrew Adonis. A nutter who believes the “end of Boris” somehow means “the end of Brexit”


    Nonetheless it’s an interesting read. However he ignores the greatest obstacle of all, on the road to any Irish unity. As long as there is a threat of violence, from either side, it won’t happen

    The loyalists got punchy over a few customs controls in the Irish Sea. A poll on unity would lead to bombs and murders

    It’s not going to happen for a generation or two, which in practical, political terms is never

    Ireland should aspire to some kind of co-sovereignty, where both flags fly. The position of Ulster is already blurred. Just blur it some more
  • Options
    StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Heathener said:

    On the previous thread (apologies Pip) HYUFD claimed that Boris was hated by Remainers because we blame him for Brexit and hated on the Left because he won in 2019.

    I don't blame Boris particularly for either.

    1. The Brexit win was the brainchild of Dom Cummings but what amazes me about this is that over 5 years later, the people obsessing about Brexit aren't my former remainer friends, it's Brexiteers. They go on and on and on and on and on about it. Some of the articles are pure paranoia. It's not just people like HY and Leon on here, it's writers in the Telegraph and Paul Staines on order-order etc.

    Although I'm sad about what happened in 2016 I don't spend my life thinking about it. I have a thousand other things that matter more right now and I don't envisage any bandwagon to rejoin: something which again I just find the most bizarre obsession amongst Brexiteers.

    I also don't 'blame' Boris. Johnson jumped late onto the andwagon for pure career opportunism. But it was a decision of the British people in a fair vote.

    It's almost as if this obsession amongst Brexiteers suggests that they are paranoid? Or mentally unwell. Seriously, and that's not a term I use lightly.

    2. 2019. I don't blame Boris for winning in 2019. If I were to blame anyone it would be the Labour Party for electing as a leader a man who was unfit to lead them or to present himself to the country for high office.

    But, again, ultimately it was the British people who chose Boris Johnson so how am I supposed to blame Boris?

    As for the man himself, many people responded brilliantly with all the flaws in Boris Johnson so there's no need for me to repeat them. He is manifestly unfit for the job in every political and moral sense.

    He will take down the tory party if they don't take him down first.

    Any concrete Brexit will betray the ideals of most Brexit voters, because of the ragtag coalition assembled to win in 2016.

    The only possible exception is those who felt that we had to leave, no matter what or how, as from a burning building.

    This isn't an argument for a quick rejoin, but it does mean that the paranoia is likely to go on for quite some time.
    The paranoia will never stop. Irrespective of future central government policy, international treaties or membership of international bodies, there will always be a significant minority of Burning Building Bampots. They should not be pandered to or humoured, let alone welcomed into the Cabinet and 10 Downing Street. They should be sidelined and comprehensively ignored.

    One day the English centre-right will grow up. But only post-PR and post-dissolution.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,453
    edited January 2022
    So England still can't post 300 in a Test.

    The only side to have done that on this tour are the Lions, when Bracey scored 113 and Foakes 73 in a losing cause.

    And got sent home for their troubles on the basis England were amply covered. So amply that Sam Billings had to be called up.

    Whoever is making the decisions on tour parties needs to be not only sacked but barred from working in English cricket. Try and get them coaching the Aussies.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,951
    Jonathan said:

    See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

    Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,842
    Leon said:

    eek said:
    By Andrew Adonis. A nutter who believes the “end of Boris” somehow means “the end of Brexit”


    Nonetheless it’s an interesting read. However he ignores the greatest obstacle of all, on the road to any Irish unity. As long as there is a threat of violence, from either side, it won’t happen

    The loyalists got punchy over a few customs controls in the Irish Sea. A poll on unity would lead to bombs and murders

    It’s not going to happen for a generation or two, which in practical, political terms is never

    Ireland should aspire to some kind of co-sovereignty, where both flags fly. The position of Ulster is already blurred. Just blur it some more
    No, that hybrid status was made history by Brexit. There has to be a border now, on sea or on land, and only one of those is credible.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

    Fine by me. The longer Johnson lasts the deeper the hole the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party finds itself in. And the harder it becomes for Scottish Labour and the Scottish Liberal Democrats to ally themselves with thoroughly discredited ‘Muscular Unionism’.

    However, I do feel sorry for the mainland Europeans being used as pawns in the British state’s transparent Divide & Rule modus operandi. Luckily, the big boys in the room, the EU and the USA, see the self-wounded beast as a shadow of what it once was.
    Whilst inevitably you view all this through the lens of independence, you’re unfair and short sighted.

    You’re unfair because it is unreasonable to tarnish unionists with the same brush as Boris. You may like to discredit unionists generally in the game of politics, but Boris is out on his own now. On the whole unionists, are decent people you just happen to disagree with on a point you care about. Boris isn’t decent.

    If you think you can escape all this madness and problems this man in number 10 through independence you’re sadly mistaken. Having a this sort of untrustworthy government in England will make an independent Scotlands life very difficult. You will just be even less able to influence it. Much as Brexit has left the U.K. with less influence.

    That’s not an argument against independence, just a assertion that there is work to be done you cannot escape and to claim that Boris is somehow representative of England or Unionism will shoot yourself in the foot.
    It's completely reasonable to associated those who say they will vote for Boris with Boris. Which is a third of the country.

    He's not isolated. He is legion.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,453
    edited January 2022
    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

    Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
    Agreed. The one carries a ten grand fine, the other has the potential to blow up the planet.

    However, the logic fails because Boris Johnson is most unlikely to make things better. It's more probable on past form he will make some silly gaffe about Ukraine being Russia's borderland and precipitate the invasion.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,750
    Morning all.

    Just watching a France24 Sat AM programme about how to make Cheese Fondu.

    Coming soon, Prawn Cocktails ...

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,453
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:
    By Andrew Adonis. A nutter who believes the “end of Boris” somehow means “the end of Brexit”


    Nonetheless it’s an interesting read. However he ignores the greatest obstacle of all, on the road to any Irish unity. As long as there is a threat of violence, from either side, it won’t happen

    The loyalists got punchy over a few customs controls in the Irish Sea. A poll on unity would lead to bombs and murders

    It’s not going to happen for a generation or two, which in practical, political terms is never

    Ireland should aspire to some kind of co-sovereignty, where both flags fly. The position of Ulster is already blurred. Just blur it some more
    No, that hybrid status was made history by Brexit. There has to be a border now, on sea or on land, and only one of those is credible.
    The problem is actually that neither of them is credible. Something that neither the EU nor London nor even Dublin appear willing or able to grasp.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,408
    MattW said:

    Morning all.

    Just watching a France24 Sat AM programme about how to make Cheese Fondu.

    Coming soon, Prawn Cocktails ...

    With baked Alaska for pudding?
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

    Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
    Boris made a statement to the house saying the matter was important. He apologised to the Queen. Was he insincere? Do you believe that the matter of him breaking the rules he set are unimportant?

    Quite frankly he would have more impact on the outside world and Putin if people could believe a word he says. He is demonstrably untrustworthy.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,572
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:
    By Andrew Adonis. A nutter who believes the “end of Boris” somehow means “the end of Brexit”


    Nonetheless it’s an interesting read. However he ignores the greatest obstacle of all, on the road to any Irish unity. As long as there is a threat of violence, from either side, it won’t happen

    The loyalists got punchy over a few customs controls in the Irish Sea. A poll on unity would lead to bombs and murders

    It’s not going to happen for a generation or two, which in practical, political terms is never

    Ireland should aspire to some kind of co-sovereignty, where both flags fly. The position of Ulster is already blurred. Just blur it some more
    No, that hybrid status was made history by Brexit. There has to be a border now, on sea or on land, and only one of those is credible.
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:
    By Andrew Adonis. A nutter who believes the “end of Boris” somehow means “the end of Brexit”


    Nonetheless it’s an interesting read. However he ignores the greatest obstacle of all, on the road to any Irish unity. As long as there is a threat of violence, from either side, it won’t happen

    The loyalists got punchy over a few customs controls in the Irish Sea. A poll on unity would lead to bombs and murders

    It’s not going to happen for a generation or two, which in practical, political terms is never

    Ireland should aspire to some kind of co-sovereignty, where both flags fly. The position of Ulster is already blurred. Just blur it some more
    No, that hybrid status was made history by Brexit. There has to be a border now, on sea or on land, and only one of those is credible.
    Great! An obscure Leicester doctor has solved the Irish problem which has vexed politicians across the british isles for 300 years

    You are wasted as a quack
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,842
    edited January 2022
    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

    Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
    Johnsons history as a diplomat is not exactly encouraging. Doesn't read his briefs, doesn't understand the countries he visits, and has an inconsistency that beggars belief. He agrees with whoever he meets, and would be played with like a mouse by a cat if he meets Putin.

    These are very dangerous times and we have a lying buffoon as a Prime Minister, who is deluded enough to see himself as a reincarnation of Winston Churchill.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,842
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:
    By Andrew Adonis. A nutter who believes the “end of Boris” somehow means “the end of Brexit”


    Nonetheless it’s an interesting read. However he ignores the greatest obstacle of all, on the road to any Irish unity. As long as there is a threat of violence, from either side, it won’t happen

    The loyalists got punchy over a few customs controls in the Irish Sea. A poll on unity would lead to bombs and murders

    It’s not going to happen for a generation or two, which in practical, political terms is never

    Ireland should aspire to some kind of co-sovereignty, where both flags fly. The position of Ulster is already blurred. Just blur it some more
    No, that hybrid status was made history by Brexit. There has to be a border now, on sea or on land, and only one of those is credible.
    The problem is actually that neither of them is credible. Something that neither the EU nor London nor even Dublin appear willing or able to grasp.
    Rejoining the CU and SM pretty much resolves the issue.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,215
    There was no cake...

    🎂 Carrie Johnson sent messages to Downing Street staff offering to bring a cake to a birthday party for the Prime Minister that she instigated during the first lockdown, the Sue Gray inquiry has been told

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/01/28/carrie-johnson-offered-bring-cake-boris-johnsons-lockdown-busting/?utm_content=politics&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1643444703-1
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,572
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:
    By Andrew Adonis. A nutter who believes the “end of Boris” somehow means “the end of Brexit”


    Nonetheless it’s an interesting read. However he ignores the greatest obstacle of all, on the road to any Irish unity. As long as there is a threat of violence, from either side, it won’t happen

    The loyalists got punchy over a few customs controls in the Irish Sea. A poll on unity would lead to bombs and murders

    It’s not going to happen for a generation or two, which in practical, political terms is never

    Ireland should aspire to some kind of co-sovereignty, where both flags fly. The position of Ulster is already blurred. Just blur it some more
    No, that hybrid status was made history by Brexit. There has to be a border now, on sea or on land, and only one of those is credible.
    The problem is actually that neither of them is credible. Something that neither the EU nor London nor even Dublin appear willing or able to grasp.
    Rejoining the CU and SM pretty much resolves the issue.
    Sorry, I thought Irish unity was the only solution

    Confused now
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,453
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:
    By Andrew Adonis. A nutter who believes the “end of Boris” somehow means “the end of Brexit”


    Nonetheless it’s an interesting read. However he ignores the greatest obstacle of all, on the road to any Irish unity. As long as there is a threat of violence, from either side, it won’t happen

    The loyalists got punchy over a few customs controls in the Irish Sea. A poll on unity would lead to bombs and murders

    It’s not going to happen for a generation or two, which in practical, political terms is never

    Ireland should aspire to some kind of co-sovereignty, where both flags fly. The position of Ulster is already blurred. Just blur it some more
    No, that hybrid status was made history by Brexit. There has to be a border now, on sea or on land, and only one of those is credible.
    The problem is actually that neither of them is credible. Something that neither the EU nor London nor even Dublin appear willing or able to grasp.
    Rejoining the CU and SM pretty much resolves the issue.
    After the vaccines farrago, that simply isn't going to happen. The EU have demonstrated again - just as they did over BSE, but not many people noticed - that they do not care about rules and will do whatever suits them, regardless of how many laws they break or lies they tell. Moreover, it showed them as malevolent.

    We cannot join an organisation like that unless we have some say over its direction. Which will never happen unless we are (a) full members and (b) have at least an equal, preferably greater, say than France and Germany.

    Incidentally one of the ironies of Brexit is we have ended up with a government very much in the image of the worst aspects of the EU - corrupt, lazy, incompetent, run by failures and retreads for their own benefit, incapable of following rules and sodding everything up in the name of an ideology they can neither understand nor feel able to express in full.

    But that irony is less pressing than the problem of Northern Ireland.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,572
    Was it ALL planned by Boris? Fascinating clip


    https://twitter.com/aiannucci/status/1487325505925832704?s=21
  • Options
    Scott_xP said:

    There was no cake...

    🎂 Carrie Johnson sent messages to Downing Street staff offering to bring a cake to a birthday party for the Prime Minister that she instigated during the first lockdown, the Sue Gray inquiry has been told

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/01/28/carrie-johnson-offered-bring-cake-boris-johnsons-lockdown-busting/?utm_content=politics&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1643444703-1

    Noel Edmonds on Brass Eye was right all along - cake is an illegal substance after all! Don't eat cake or it will bring trouble kids
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,801
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

    Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
    Johnsons history as a diplomat is not exactly encouraging. Doesn't read his briefs, doesn't understand the countries he visits, and has an inconsistency that beggars belief. He agrees with whoever he meets, and would be played with like a mouse by a cat if he meets Putin.

    These are very dangerous times and we have a lying buffoon as a Prime Minister, who is deluded enough to see himself as a reincarnation of Winston Churchill.
    That was my reaction as well. Having him turn up in Ukraine is probably not going to do anything to avoid WW3.

    More likely to either aggravate tensions or result in national humiliation, going on his past performance.

  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,958
    Leon said:

    Was it ALL planned by Boris? Fascinating clip


    https://twitter.com/aiannucci/status/1487325505925832704?s=21

    Johnson needs to have a convenient cycle crash with some remainer dog walker in St James park.

    Or a high profile affair (with a police officer, ideally).

    Small fire at Chequers? Or set off a grenade is Estonia.
  • Options
    state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,422
    edited January 2022
    OT - If there are markets (not seen them but laddies generally do these sort) abut who comes second etc I think out of the minnows the Heritage Party might do well given most of the others are to the right of the tories . Now the Heritage party probably is as well but to those liberal type voters who still want to vote but wont vote for UKIP etc ,the heritage party sounds like the political wing of the Local History Society and therefore harmless enough to vote for it in the absence of anything else.
  • Options
    Dura_Ace said:

    Jonathan said:

    See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

    A chronically lazy, pathological liar with zero attention to detail is just what this delicate situation demands.
    Minor entertainment to be had speculating on how far he’ll go on the cosplay front: a helmet or full camo?
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,215
    Boris Johnson’s idea of producing another scandal or outrage every week, refusing to ever resign + thus exhausting and bewildering your critics - was central to Donald Trump’s approach. And to the populist style worldwide. But it is vital to call it out + reject it. #disgusting
    https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1487342161616150531
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,958
    Windy like.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,125
    darkage said:

    pigeon said:

    @StuartDickson Incompetence? That's generous of you. As others have pointed out, the miraculous timing of Plod - turning up at the Cabinet Office in his size thirteens just before the Gray report was due to drop and filleting it - is a remarkable coincidence, to put it mildly.

    I think this will turn out to be incompetence, rather than a strategically convenient blunder.

    The perception that Johnson was saved by police corruption is not positive for anyone. Better to resolve this by a jovial slap on the wrist for all involved, and move on.
    I disagree, it is far too convenient.
  • Options
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:
    By Andrew Adonis. A nutter who believes the “end of Boris” somehow means “the end of Brexit”


    Nonetheless it’s an interesting read. However he ignores the greatest obstacle of all, on the road to any Irish unity. As long as there is a threat of violence, from either side, it won’t happen

    The loyalists got punchy over a few customs controls in the Irish Sea. A poll on unity would lead to bombs and murders

    It’s not going to happen for a generation or two, which in practical, political terms is never

    Ireland should aspire to some kind of co-sovereignty, where both flags fly. The position of Ulster is already blurred. Just blur it some more
    No, that hybrid status was made history by Brexit. There has to be a border now, on sea or on land, and only one of those is credible.
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:
    By Andrew Adonis. A nutter who believes the “end of Boris” somehow means “the end of Brexit”


    Nonetheless it’s an interesting read. However he ignores the greatest obstacle of all, on the road to any Irish unity. As long as there is a threat of violence, from either side, it won’t happen

    The loyalists got punchy over a few customs controls in the Irish Sea. A poll on unity would lead to bombs and murders

    It’s not going to happen for a generation or two, which in practical, political terms is never

    Ireland should aspire to some kind of co-sovereignty, where both flags fly. The position of Ulster is already blurred. Just blur it some more
    No, that hybrid status was made history by Brexit. There has to be a border now, on sea or on land, and only one of those is credible.
    Great! An obscure Leicester doctor has solved the Irish problem which has vexed politicians across the british isles for 300 years

    You are wasted as a quack
    Obscure dildo hewers otoh..
  • Options
    Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,398
    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

    Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
    And of course he was such a success as Foreign Secretary, (a lady in an iraqi prison stirs...another he threw under the bus)



  • Options
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:
    By Andrew Adonis. A nutter who believes the “end of Boris” somehow means “the end of Brexit”


    Nonetheless it’s an interesting read. However he ignores the greatest obstacle of all, on the road to any Irish unity. As long as there is a threat of violence, from either side, it won’t happen

    The loyalists got punchy over a few customs controls in the Irish Sea. A poll on unity would lead to bombs and murders

    It’s not going to happen for a generation or two, which in practical, political terms is never

    Ireland should aspire to some kind of co-sovereignty, where both flags fly. The position of Ulster is already blurred. Just blur it some more
    No, that hybrid status was made history by Brexit. There has to be a border now, on sea or on land, and only one of those is credible.
    The problem is actually that neither of them is credible. Something that neither the EU nor London nor even Dublin appear willing or able to grasp.
    Rejoining the CU and SM pretty much resolves the issue.
    As does invoking Article 16, refusing to implement a Sea Border and calling the EU's bluff that there needs to be a border anywhere.

    We need a Schrödinger's Northern Ireland where it's both in the UK market, and the EU market, and the rules are different and there's no border anywhere.

    Just don't peak in the box.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 33,215
    NEW: Brand Boris permanently damaged with voters, say pollsters, as Johnson fights to stave off confidence vote

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/brand-boris-permanently-damaged-with-voters-say-pollsters-as-johnson-fights-to-stave-off-confidence-vote
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

    Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
    Johnsons history as a diplomat is not exactly encouraging. Doesn't read his briefs, doesn't understand the countries he visits, and has an inconsistency that beggars belief. He agrees with whoever he meets, and would be played with like a mouse by a cat if he meets Putin.

    These are very dangerous times and we have a lying buffoon as a Prime Minister, who is deluded enough to see himself as a reincarnation of Winston Churchill.
    This is surely Boris's 1945 moment*.

    *Russia takes Eastern Europe
  • Options
    Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,398

    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

    Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
    And of course he was such a success as Foreign Secretary, (a lady in an iraqi prison stirs...another he threw under the bus)



    Edit : Iranian
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,040

    OT - If there are markets (not seen them but laddies generally do these sort) abut who comes second etc I think out of the minnows the Heritage Party might do well given most of the others are to the right of the tories . Now the Heritage party probably is as well but to those liberal type voters who still want to vote but wont vote for UKIP etc ,the heritage party sounds like the political wing of the Local History Society and therefore harmless enough to vote for it in the absence of anything else.

    HP are poujadists who should be violently deplatformed at every opportunity. They only got 2% in Hartlepool which is the stupidest place in Britain so it's hard to imagine them doing better anywhere else.
  • Options
    kjhkjh Posts: 10,686
    Heathener said:

    On the previous thread (apologies Pip) HYUFD claimed that Boris was hated by Remainers because we blame him for Brexit and hated on the Left because he won in 2019.

    I don't blame Boris particularly for either.

    1. The Brexit win was the brainchild of Dom Cummings but what amazes me about this is that over 5 years later, the people obsessing about Brexit aren't my former remainer friends, it's Brexiteers. They go on and on and on and on and on about it. Some of the articles are pure paranoia. It's not just people like HY and Leon on here, it's writers in the Telegraph and Paul Staines on order-order etc.

    Although I'm sad about what happened in 2016 I don't spend my life thinking about it. I have a thousand other things that matter more right now and I don't envisage any bandwagon to rejoin: something which again I just find the most bizarre obsession amongst Brexiteers.

    I also don't 'blame' Boris. Johnson jumped late onto the andwagon for pure career opportunism. But it was a decision of the British people in a fair vote.

    It's almost as if this obsession amongst Brexiteers suggests that they are paranoid? Or mentally unwell. Seriously, and that's not a term I use lightly.

    2. 2019. I don't blame Boris for winning in 2019. If I were to blame anyone it would be the Labour Party for electing as a leader a man who was unfit to lead them or to present himself to the country for high office.

    But, again, ultimately it was the British people who chose Boris Johnson so how am I supposed to blame Boris?

    As for the man himself, many people responded brilliantly with all the flaws in Boris Johnson so there's no need for me to repeat them. He is manifestly unfit for the job in every political and moral sense.

    He will take down the tory party if they don't take him down first.

    Regarding your comment about those obsessed with Brexit you are spot on. I hadn't considered this before but all my posts on Brexit are in response to Brexiters raising the issue. I don't believe I have ever made a post on the subject since the 2019 election otherwise. Could be wrong.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,125

    Latest YouGov breakdown:

    London
    Lab 47%
    Con 21%
    LD 16%
    Grn 9%

    Rest of South
    Con 39%
    Lab 35%
    LD 13%
    Grn 8%

    Midlands and Wales
    Lab 40%
    Con 35%
    LD 9%

    North
    Lab 44%
    Con 32%
    Grn 7%
    LD 7%

    Scotland
    SNP 53%
    Lab 18%
    Con 18%
    LD 6%

    (YouGov / The Times Survey; Sample Size: 1,656; 26th - 27th January 2022)

    Are the Liberal Democrats nudging up in London? Could be a good May for them. How would it look if they overtook the Conservatives in the capital and former fiefdom of the prime minister?

    Definite signs of Con recovery in the Midlands.

    Looking bleak for unionists in Scotland
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:
    By Andrew Adonis. A nutter who believes the “end of Boris” somehow means “the end of Brexit”


    Nonetheless it’s an interesting read. However he ignores the greatest obstacle of all, on the road to any Irish unity. As long as there is a threat of violence, from either side, it won’t happen

    The loyalists got punchy over a few customs controls in the Irish Sea. A poll on unity would lead to bombs and murders

    It’s not going to happen for a generation or two, which in practical, political terms is never

    Ireland should aspire to some kind of co-sovereignty, where both flags fly. The position of Ulster is already blurred. Just blur it some more
    No, that hybrid status was made history by Brexit. There has to be a border now, on sea or on land, and only one of those is credible.
    The problem is actually that neither of them is credible. Something that neither the EU nor London nor even Dublin appear willing or able to grasp.
    Rejoining the CU and SM pretty much resolves the issue.
    As does invoking Article 16, refusing to implement a Sea Border and calling the EU's bluff that there needs to be a border anywhere.

    We need a Schrödinger's Northern Ireland where it's both in the UK market, and the EU market, and the rules are different and there's no border anywhere.

    Just don't peak in the box.
    The waveform collapses due to observers* being inside the box.

    *The people who... actually live there?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,408
    So how does Putin get out of this? He’s marched his men to the top of the hill but the payoff I think he was expecting hasn’t happened. He wanted to drive a wedge between Ukraine and the west so that it was isolated and compliant. Instead Ukraine is closer to the west than ever.

    Another disappointment for him must be the US response which has been surprisingly robust. Of course it is not the US who is gambling with 2-3m refugees pouring into Western Europe but the EU and, indirectly, us.

    So we need to find a way of saving face for Putin so he has an alternative to war he can live with. I am not sure I am seeing it.

  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    Eabhal said:

    Windy like.

    True that. SSEN showing dozens of power outages in Aberdeenshire and adjacent. Just waiting for it to go off here again.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,125
    Eabhal said:

    Windy like.

    Just been out running about the street collecting assorted rubbish, cans , bottles etc as all the bins went flying. Howled all night but seems to be getting worse. Stopped raining though.
  • Options
    state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,422
    edited January 2022
    Dura_Ace said:

    OT - If there are markets (not seen them but laddies generally do these sort) abut who comes second etc I think out of the minnows the Heritage Party might do well given most of the others are to the right of the tories . Now the Heritage party probably is as well but to those liberal type voters who still want to vote but wont vote for UKIP etc ,the heritage party sounds like the political wing of the Local History Society and therefore harmless enough to vote for it in the absence of anything else.

    HP are poujadists who should be violently deplatformed at every opportunity. They only got 2% in Hartlepool which is the stupidest place in Britain so it's hard to imagine them doing better anywhere else.
    I suppose my point is that most voters will not know anything about them until they vote , they wlll probably not know they even existed until they get the ballot paper - The name sounds harmless enough amongst a see of nationalist parties so will attract votes albeit probably by innocent ignorance as you say. Anyway just a hunch - i so like to look at these more novelty markets - got Lord Buckethead right anyway in the London major election
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,960
    edited January 2022
    malcolmg said:

    Latest YouGov breakdown:

    London
    Lab 47%
    Con 21%
    LD 16%
    Grn 9%

    Rest of South
    Con 39%
    Lab 35%
    LD 13%
    Grn 8%

    Midlands and Wales
    Lab 40%
    Con 35%
    LD 9%

    North
    Lab 44%
    Con 32%
    Grn 7%
    LD 7%

    Scotland
    SNP 53%
    Lab 18%
    Con 18%
    LD 6%

    (YouGov / The Times Survey; Sample Size: 1,656; 26th - 27th January 2022)

    Are the Liberal Democrats nudging up in London? Could be a good May for them. How would it look if they overtook the Conservatives in the capital and former fiefdom of the prime minister?

    Definite signs of Con recovery in the Midlands.

    Looking bleak for unionists in Scotland
    Especially as a chunk of Labour voters are pro-indy. (People won't be voting for SNP domestic policies at Holyrood in Westminster elections, so the reverse shouldn't be applying to any great degree.)

    Edit: But subsamples, presumably, mind.

    Morning, Malky. Windy outside from Storm Malik but no damage to our place - blue sky in between the scudding clouds. Hope RP, Eabhal et al are OK.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,299
    edited January 2022
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

    Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
    Johnsons history as a diplomat is not exactly encouraging. Doesn't read his briefs, doesn't understand the countries he visits, and has an inconsistency that beggars belief. He agrees with whoever he meets, and would be played with like a mouse by a cat if he meets Putin.

    These are very dangerous times and we have a lying buffoon as a Prime Minister, who is deluded enough to see himself as a reincarnation of Winston Churchill.
    Presumably right now BJ is scribbling some couplet by Kipling on The Great Game onto his already grubby shirt cuff.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    DavidL said:

    So how does Putin get out of this? He’s marched his men to the top of the hill but the payoff I think he was expecting hasn’t happened. He wanted to drive a wedge between Ukraine and the west so that it was isolated and compliant. Instead Ukraine is closer to the west than ever.

    Another disappointment for him must be the US response which has been surprisingly robust. Of course it is not the US who is gambling with 2-3m refugees pouring into Western Europe but the EU and, indirectly, us.

    So we need to find a way of saving face for Putin so he has an alternative to war he can live with. I am not sure I am seeing it.

    Annexing Belarus. In a "friendly" way. Return to hacking, espionage, divisive propaganda, and kompromat for a few years.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,572
    kjh said:

    Heathener said:

    On the previous thread (apologies Pip) HYUFD claimed that Boris was hated by Remainers because we blame him for Brexit and hated on the Left because he won in 2019.

    I don't blame Boris particularly for either.

    1. The Brexit win was the brainchild of Dom Cummings but what amazes me about this is that over 5 years later, the people obsessing about Brexit aren't my former remainer friends, it's Brexiteers. They go on and on and on and on and on about it. Some of the articles are pure paranoia. It's not just people like HY and Leon on here, it's writers in the Telegraph and Paul Staines on order-order etc.

    Although I'm sad about what happened in 2016 I don't spend my life thinking about it. I have a thousand other things that matter more right now and I don't envisage any bandwagon to rejoin: something which again I just find the most bizarre obsession amongst Brexiteers.

    I also don't 'blame' Boris. Johnson jumped late onto the andwagon for pure career opportunism. But it was a decision of the British people in a fair vote.

    It's almost as if this obsession amongst Brexiteers suggests that they are paranoid? Or mentally unwell. Seriously, and that's not a term I use lightly.

    2. 2019. I don't blame Boris for winning in 2019. If I were to blame anyone it would be the Labour Party for electing as a leader a man who was unfit to lead them or to present himself to the country for high office.

    But, again, ultimately it was the British people who chose Boris Johnson so how am I supposed to blame Boris?

    As for the man himself, many people responded brilliantly with all the flaws in Boris Johnson so there's no need for me to repeat them. He is manifestly unfit for the job in every political and moral sense.

    He will take down the tory party if they don't take him down first.

    Regarding your comment about those obsessed with Brexit you are spot on. I hadn't considered this before but all my posts on Brexit are in response to Brexiters raising the issue. I don't believe I have ever made a post on the subject since the 2019 election otherwise. Could be wrong.
    OK. Let’s check that theory. It’s quite simple to do

    Who is the first person to raise the question of Brexit on this brand new thread? Ah yes. A demented Remainer @heatherner in a 12 paragraph comment which is all about Brexit where he moans that it is only Brexiteers that are obsessed with Brexit

    lol
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,906
    It's interesting that Boris's two biggest fans on here both live outside the UK. I suppose it was the same with Berlusconi. How we'd laugh at his Bunga Bunga parties from a safe distance
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    rcs1000 said:

    My name is Robert Smithson, and I agree with this header.

    My name is redacted - but only to protect my essential purity and innocence - and I agree with this header.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,951

    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

    Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
    And of course he was such a success as Foreign Secretary, (a lady in an iraqi prison stirs...another he threw under the bus)

    Edit : Iranian
    Iranian woman, Iranian prison.
  • Options
    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:
    By Andrew Adonis. A nutter who believes the “end of Boris” somehow means “the end of Brexit”


    Nonetheless it’s an interesting read. However he ignores the greatest obstacle of all, on the road to any Irish unity. As long as there is a threat of violence, from either side, it won’t happen

    The loyalists got punchy over a few customs controls in the Irish Sea. A poll on unity would lead to bombs and murders

    It’s not going to happen for a generation or two, which in practical, political terms is never

    Ireland should aspire to some kind of co-sovereignty, where both flags fly. The position of Ulster is already blurred. Just blur it some more
    No, that hybrid status was made history by Brexit. There has to be a border now, on sea or on land, and only one of those is credible.
    The problem is actually that neither of them is credible. Something that neither the EU nor London nor even Dublin appear willing or able to grasp.
    Rejoining the CU and SM pretty much resolves the issue.
    As does invoking Article 16, refusing to implement a Sea Border and calling the EU's bluff that there needs to be a border anywhere.

    We need a Schrödinger's Northern Ireland where it's both in the UK market, and the EU market, and the rules are different and there's no border anywhere.

    Just don't peak in the box.
    The waveform collapses due to observers* being inside the box.

    *The people who... actually live there?
    The people inside the box are metaphorical cats who can be Irish, or British, or both simultaneously.

    The observers we don't need are inspectors, lawyers and associated others trying to ensure that NI rules strictly and 100% comply with either EU or UK rules and that in Barnier's words the "integrity" of the border isn't compromised.
  • Options
    RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,978
    edited January 2022
    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Brand Boris permanently damaged with voters, say pollsters, as Johnson fights to stave off confidence vote

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/brand-boris-permanently-damaged-with-voters-say-pollsters-as-johnson-fights-to-stave-off-confidence-vote

    Of course he is. But that doesn’t stop some of the more deluded MPs (and loyalist voters) putting their fingers in their ears and ploughing on regardless.

    The May elections will be a bloodbath
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,125
    @stodge @MoonRabbit
    My first pass for horses today. Cheltenham looks lik eit will be great racing.

    Treble, all short odds but a treble gets you 4-1
    Third Time Lucki 1:35 Doncaster
    Chantry House 2:30 Cheltenham
    Champ 3:05 Cheltenham

    Oscar Elite EW bet 1:20 Cheltenham
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:
    By Andrew Adonis. A nutter who believes the “end of Boris” somehow means “the end of Brexit”


    Nonetheless it’s an interesting read. However he ignores the greatest obstacle of all, on the road to any Irish unity. As long as there is a threat of violence, from either side, it won’t happen

    The loyalists got punchy over a few customs controls in the Irish Sea. A poll on unity would lead to bombs and murders

    It’s not going to happen for a generation or two, which in practical, political terms is never

    Ireland should aspire to some kind of co-sovereignty, where both flags fly. The position of Ulster is already blurred. Just blur it some more
    No, that hybrid status was made history by Brexit. There has to be a border now, on sea or on land, and only one of those is credible.
    The problem is actually that neither of them is credible. Something that neither the EU nor London nor even Dublin appear willing or able to grasp.
    Rejoining the CU and SM pretty much resolves the issue.
    As does invoking Article 16, refusing to implement a Sea Border and calling the EU's bluff that there needs to be a border anywhere.

    We need a Schrödinger's Northern Ireland where it's both in the UK market, and the EU market, and the rules are different and there's no border anywhere.

    Just don't peak in the box.
    The waveform collapses due to observers* being inside the box.

    *The people who... actually live there?
    The people inside the box are metaphorical cats who can be Irish, or British, or both simultaneously.

    The observers we don't need are inspectors, lawyers and associated others trying to ensure that NI rules strictly and 100% comply with either EU or UK rules and that in Barnier's words the "integrity" of the border isn't compromised.
    At least your understanding of trade is on the same level as your understanding of physics.
    What level, you ask? Don't open that box, either.
  • Options
    BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 18,822
    edited January 2022
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    eek said:
    By Andrew Adonis. A nutter who believes the “end of Boris” somehow means “the end of Brexit”


    Nonetheless it’s an interesting read. However he ignores the greatest obstacle of all, on the road to any Irish unity. As long as there is a threat of violence, from either side, it won’t happen

    The loyalists got punchy over a few customs controls in the Irish Sea. A poll on unity would lead to bombs and murders

    It’s not going to happen for a generation or two, which in practical, political terms is never

    Ireland should aspire to some kind of co-sovereignty, where both flags fly. The position of Ulster is already blurred. Just blur it some more
    No, that hybrid status was made history by Brexit. There has to be a border now, on sea or on land, and only one of those is credible.
    The problem is actually that neither of them is credible. Something that neither the EU nor London nor even Dublin appear willing or able to grasp.
    Rejoining the CU and SM pretty much resolves the issue.
    As does invoking Article 16, refusing to implement a Sea Border and calling the EU's bluff that there needs to be a border anywhere.

    We need a Schrödinger's Northern Ireland where it's both in the UK market, and the EU market, and the rules are different and there's no border anywhere.

    Just don't peak in the box.
    The waveform collapses due to observers* being inside the box.

    *The people who... actually live there?
    The people inside the box are metaphorical cats who can be Irish, or British, or both simultaneously.

    The observers we don't need are inspectors, lawyers and associated others trying to ensure that NI rules strictly and 100% comply with either EU or UK rules and that in Barnier's words the "integrity" of the border isn't compromised.
    At least your understanding of trade is on the same level as your understanding of physics.
    What level, you ask? Don't open that box, either.
    Or your understanding of the word metaphorical.
  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

    Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
    And of course he was such a success as Foreign Secretary, (a lady in an iraqi prison stirs...another he threw under the bus)

    Edit : Iranian
    Iranian woman, Iranian prison.
    British passport holder. What's your point, caller?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,842
    DavidL said:

    So how does Putin get out of this? He’s marched his men to the top of the hill but the payoff I think he was expecting hasn’t happened. He wanted to drive a wedge between Ukraine and the west so that it was isolated and compliant. Instead Ukraine is closer to the west than ever.

    Another disappointment for him must be the US response which has been surprisingly robust. Of course it is not the US who is gambling with 2-3m refugees pouring into Western Europe but the EU and, indirectly, us.

    So we need to find a way of saving face for Putin so he has an alternative to war he can live with. I am not sure I am seeing it.

    One glimmer of hope is that Russias internal media has been very quiet on the issue, with very little domestic sabre rattling.

    I do wonder if annexing Belarus is the real objective. The Russians now have a big army there, and the recent history of protests did carry risk of a free and democratic Belarus. That would have been something that Putin would not want.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,175
    The Tories will win Southend West on what will likely be a low turnout but not sure it will be quite so comfortable.

    UKIP are standing for starters which they did not in Batley and Spand they are a recognised national party, getting 12% nationally in 2015 and 17% in Southend West. The pro cannabis legalisation Pyschadaelic party will also likely get a few votes from left liberals
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,175
    Tom Tugendhat confirms he will stand for Tory leader and PM if Boris goes

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1487335579490697217?s=20&t=zNnJV8gWrvK-XspN8id0UA
  • Options
    Farooq said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

    Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
    And of course he was such a success as Foreign Secretary, (a lady in an iraqi prison stirs...another he threw under the bus)

    Edit : Iranian
    Iranian woman, Iranian prison.
    British passport holder. What's your point, caller?
    Iranian passport holder.

    British passports aren't recognised for dual nationals in their other nation.

    And she was in prison and having her sentence extended before Boris ever spoke. Blame the Iranians for her being there, nobody else.

    Trying to blame Boris takes the focus off the Iranians where it belongs.
  • Options
    Morning all! Storm Mental is here and whilst its not as smash your head off brutal as Arwen its still making a mess. We still haven't had the roof repaired after the last one (was supposed to happen a few weeks ago but Covid knocked everything back) so have already had to go pick up smashed ridge tiles out of the road. And our tree which was damaged by Arwen is still not felled and is swaying a little more than is comfortable.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,453
    malcolmg said:

    Latest YouGov breakdown:

    London
    Lab 47%
    Con 21%
    LD 16%
    Grn 9%

    Rest of South
    Con 39%
    Lab 35%
    LD 13%
    Grn 8%

    Midlands and Wales
    Lab 40%
    Con 35%
    LD 9%

    North
    Lab 44%
    Con 32%
    Grn 7%
    LD 7%

    Scotland
    SNP 53%
    Lab 18%
    Con 18%
    LD 6%

    (YouGov / The Times Survey; Sample Size: 1,656; 26th - 27th January 2022)

    Are the Liberal Democrats nudging up in London? Could be a good May for them. How would it look if they overtook the Conservatives in the capital and former fiefdom of the prime minister?

    Definite signs of Con recovery in the Midlands.

    Looking bleak for unionists in Scotland
    Really? 53% support a party you keep telling us doesn't want independence.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,175

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Brand Boris permanently damaged with voters, say pollsters, as Johnson fights to stave off confidence vote

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/brand-boris-permanently-damaged-with-voters-say-pollsters-as-johnson-fights-to-stave-off-confidence-vote

    Of course he is. But that doesn’t stop some of the more deluded MPs (and loyalist voters) putting their fingers in their ears and ploughing on regardless.

    The May elections will be a bloodbath
    If the Tories hold Westminster and Kensington and Chelsea in May, which on current polls they will, Boris loyalists can point to that given London is the only area of England where all council seats are up, apart from a handful of counties delayed from last year
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,906
    HYUFD said:

    Tom Tugendhat confirms he will stand for Tory leader and PM if Boris goes

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1487335579490697217?s=20&t=zNnJV8gWrvK-XspN8id0UA

    I like him! I saw him a few weeks ago being interviewed. He seemed so un-spivvy I could hardly recognise him as a Tory
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,061
    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    pigeon said:

    @StuartDickson Incompetence? That's generous of you. As others have pointed out, the miraculous timing of Plod - turning up at the Cabinet Office in his size thirteens just before the Gray report was due to drop and filleting it - is a remarkable coincidence, to put it mildly.

    I think this will turn out to be incompetence, rather than a strategically convenient blunder.

    The perception that Johnson was saved by police corruption is not positive for anyone. Better to resolve this by a jovial slap on the wrist for all involved, and move on.
    Judging by @Cyclefree and others contributions, eradicating police corruption in England is a gargantuan task, requiring an extraordinarily effective central government. That looks profoundly unlikely, even in the long-term.

    Periodic incompetence exists in all individuals and organisations, even when corrupt behaviour is totally absent. That is part of the human condition. Until AI takes over…
    Thats a good insight @StuartDickson, that others would do well to absorb.
    Incompetence (periodic or otherwise) is a permanent feature of the human condition. It is a fallacy to believe it can be eradicated.
    That's true, and the same applies to corruption.

    However that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep trying to eradicate it. We're not perfect but we can aspire to high standards at least and require those we give power over us to be better than average in these and other matters.
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    So how does Putin get out of this? He’s marched his men to the top of the hill but the payoff I think he was expecting hasn’t happened. He wanted to drive a wedge between Ukraine and the west so that it was isolated and compliant. Instead Ukraine is closer to the west than ever.

    Another disappointment for him must be the US response which has been surprisingly robust. Of course it is not the US who is gambling with 2-3m refugees pouring into Western Europe but the EU and, indirectly, us.

    So we need to find a way of saving face for Putin so he has an alternative to war he can live with. I am not sure I am seeing it.

    Dunno about that, Putin seems to have most of the Western world scurrying about with panic in their breasties. I think he’d be relatively chuffed with progress so far.

    Insofar as Russian vox pops are worth anything, from what I’ve heard on R4 there seems to be a significant section of Russians who are willing to say they don’t think there’ll be a war or it would be stupid if there was one. Perhaps Putin the wise statesman and peacemaker might have his fans.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,175
    malcolmg said:

    Latest YouGov breakdown:

    London
    Lab 47%
    Con 21%
    LD 16%
    Grn 9%

    Rest of South
    Con 39%
    Lab 35%
    LD 13%
    Grn 8%

    Midlands and Wales
    Lab 40%
    Con 35%
    LD 9%

    North
    Lab 44%
    Con 32%
    Grn 7%
    LD 7%

    Scotland
    SNP 53%
    Lab 18%
    Con 18%
    LD 6%

    (YouGov / The Times Survey; Sample Size: 1,656; 26th - 27th January 2022)

    Are the Liberal Democrats nudging up in London? Could be a good May for them. How would it look if they overtook the Conservatives in the capital and former fiefdom of the prime minister?

    Definite signs of Con recovery in the Midlands.

    Looking bleak for unionists in Scotland
    Not at all. It does not matter if the SNP got 99%, this Tory UK government will continue to refuse indyref2 and Sturgeon will continue to rule out UDI.

  • Options
    FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    Farooq said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

    Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
    And of course he was such a success as Foreign Secretary, (a lady in an iraqi prison stirs...another he threw under the bus)

    Edit : Iranian
    Iranian woman, Iranian prison.
    British passport holder. What's your point, caller?
    Iranian passport holder.

    British passports aren't recognised for dual nationals in their other nation.

    And she was in prison and having her sentence extended before Boris ever spoke. Blame the Iranians for her being there, nobody else.

    Trying to blame Boris takes the focus off the Iranians where it belongs.
    As long as we aren't trying to wash our hands of her by calling her "Iranian" as if she isn't also British.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,951
    Farooq said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

    Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
    And of course he was such a success as Foreign Secretary, (a lady in an iraqi prison stirs...another he threw under the bus)

    Edit : Iranian
    Iranian woman, Iranian prison.
    British passport holder. What's your point, caller?
    A reasonable understanding of jurisdictional issues surrounding dual citizenship, is my point.
  • Options

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Jonathan said:

    See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.

    Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
    Johnsons history as a diplomat is not exactly encouraging. Doesn't read his briefs, doesn't understand the countries he visits, and has an inconsistency that beggars belief. He agrees with whoever he meets, and would be played with like a mouse by a cat if he meets Putin.

    These are very dangerous times and we have a lying buffoon as a Prime Minister, who is deluded enough to see himself as a reincarnation of Winston Churchill.
    Presumably right now BJ is scribbling some couplet by Kipling on The Great Game onto his already grubby shirt cuff.
    It is unlikely world leaders take Boris at all seriously. They would appreciate and be sympathetic to his need to cut a dash in order to distract from domestic issues. They would do much the same. It's part of the playbook.

    His diplomatic contributions will be quietly ignored. As usual the US, Germany and France will decide policy.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,842
    Roger said:

    It's interesting that Boris's two biggest fans on here both live outside the UK. I suppose it was the same with Berlusconi. How we'd laugh at his Bunga Bunga parties from a safe distance

    I remember hearing of the defenestration of Maggie while staying in a hostel in Borneo. The common room was mostly British and Irish, with a few Australians, Dutch and the inevitable Germans. It was in the days before phones and social media, so quite a chatty bunch, talking about plans and where to go next.

    In walks a slightly shocked looking local owner, who announces that Maggie had gone, followed by a spontaneous cheer from the Brits and Irish. Foreigners often fail to understand how unpopular leaders are domestically. Something that we should consider both in Russia and Ukraine BTW.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,061
    DavidL said:

    So how does Putin get out of this? He’s marched his men to the top of the hill but the payoff I think he was expecting hasn’t happened. He wanted to drive a wedge between Ukraine and the west so that it was isolated and compliant. Instead Ukraine is closer to the west than ever.

    Another disappointment for him must be the US response which has been surprisingly robust. Of course it is not the US who is gambling with 2-3m refugees pouring into Western Europe but the EU and, indirectly, us.

    So we need to find a way of saving face for Putin so he has an alternative to war he can live with. I am not sure I am seeing it.

    Indeed. This is not regular game playing it seems, the stakes for mustering so much on the border are damn high. Yet given one of his demands seems to be that the world invent a time machine to return to 1997 he surely cannot have expected to get that, so...what?

    Ukraine not to join NATO? I recall reading years ago that would never happen precisely because of the absorption of Crimea and the east, that NATO would not want to admit a nation with an existing active territorial dispute with Russia. So what else did he think to achieve?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,175
    Leon said:

    eek said:
    By Andrew Adonis. A nutter who believes the “end of Boris” somehow means “the end of Brexit”


    Nonetheless it’s an interesting read. However he ignores the greatest obstacle of all, on the road to any Irish unity. As long as there is a threat of violence, from either side, it won’t happen

    The loyalists got punchy over a few customs controls in the Irish Sea. A poll on unity would lead to bombs and murders

    It’s not going to happen for a generation or two, which in practical, political terms is never

    Ireland should aspire to some kind of co-sovereignty, where both flags fly. The position of Ulster is already blurred. Just blur it some more
    Exactly and Unionist Parties still win more votes combined than Nationalist Parties in NI and more MLAs
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,013
    Good morning, everyone.

    Maybe Putin's plan was to snaffle (more formally) part of the eastern mainland of Ukraine, and he's been surprised by the response by the West?
  • Options
    EabhalEabhal Posts: 5,958
    Foxy said:

    Roger said:

    It's interesting that Boris's two biggest fans on here both live outside the UK. I suppose it was the same with Berlusconi. How we'd laugh at his Bunga Bunga parties from a safe distance

    I remember hearing of the defenestration of Maggie while staying in a hostel in Borneo. The common room was mostly British and Irish, with a few Australians, Dutch and the inevitable Germans. It was in the days before phones and social media, so quite a chatty bunch, talking about plans and where to go next.

    In walks a slightly shocked looking local owner, who announces that Maggie had gone, followed by a spontaneous cheer from the Brits and Irish. Foreigners often fail to understand how unpopular leaders are domestically. Something that we should consider both in Russia and Ukraine BTW.
    The inverse, too. English posters about Sturgeon, and all of us about Trump.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,061
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    Latest YouGov breakdown:

    London
    Lab 47%
    Con 21%
    LD 16%
    Grn 9%

    Rest of South
    Con 39%
    Lab 35%
    LD 13%
    Grn 8%

    Midlands and Wales
    Lab 40%
    Con 35%
    LD 9%

    North
    Lab 44%
    Con 32%
    Grn 7%
    LD 7%

    Scotland
    SNP 53%
    Lab 18%
    Con 18%
    LD 6%

    (YouGov / The Times Survey; Sample Size: 1,656; 26th - 27th January 2022)

    Are the Liberal Democrats nudging up in London? Could be a good May for them. How would it look if they overtook the Conservatives in the capital and former fiefdom of the prime minister?

    Definite signs of Con recovery in the Midlands.

    Looking bleak for unionists in Scotland
    Not at all. It does not matter if the SNP got 99%, this Tory UK government will continue to refuse indyref2 and Sturgeon will continue to rule out UDI.

    I know its futile to raise this, but surely you can accept the Union would be in a stronger position if Unionist parties had more support, and that if the SNP did get so much backing that would be damaging for it's long term prospects?
  • Options
    darkagedarkage Posts: 4,801
    kle4 said:

    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    pigeon said:

    @StuartDickson Incompetence? That's generous of you. As others have pointed out, the miraculous timing of Plod - turning up at the Cabinet Office in his size thirteens just before the Gray report was due to drop and filleting it - is a remarkable coincidence, to put it mildly.

    I think this will turn out to be incompetence, rather than a strategically convenient blunder.

    The perception that Johnson was saved by police corruption is not positive for anyone. Better to resolve this by a jovial slap on the wrist for all involved, and move on.
    Judging by @Cyclefree and others contributions, eradicating police corruption in England is a gargantuan task, requiring an extraordinarily effective central government. That looks profoundly unlikely, even in the long-term.

    Periodic incompetence exists in all individuals and organisations, even when corrupt behaviour is totally absent. That is part of the human condition. Until AI takes over…
    Thats a good insight @StuartDickson, that others would do well to absorb.
    Incompetence (periodic or otherwise) is a permanent feature of the human condition. It is a fallacy to believe it can be eradicated.
    That's true, and the same applies to corruption.

    However that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep trying to eradicate it. We're not perfect but we can aspire to high standards at least and require those we give power over us to be better than average in these and other matters.
    I agree.

    The danger is that we lose sight of the objective of truth; and that incompetence and corruption become an accepted part of public life. However, that is exactly the road Johnson is leading us down. He makes small gains for the purpose of survival and convenience, at the expense of great long term damage.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,029
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    So how does Putin get out of this? He’s marched his men to the top of the hill but the payoff I think he was expecting hasn’t happened. He wanted to drive a wedge between Ukraine and the west so that it was isolated and compliant. Instead Ukraine is closer to the west than ever.

    Another disappointment for him must be the US response which has been surprisingly robust. Of course it is not the US who is gambling with 2-3m refugees pouring into Western Europe but the EU and, indirectly, us.

    So we need to find a way of saving face for Putin so he has an alternative to war he can live with. I am not sure I am seeing it.

    Indeed. This is not regular game playing it seems, the stakes for mustering so much on the border are damn high. Yet given one of his demands seems to be that the world invent a time machine to return to 1997 he surely cannot have expected to get that, so...what?

    Ukraine not to join NATO? I recall reading years ago that would never happen precisely because of the absorption of Crimea and the east, that NATO would not want to admit a nation with an existing active territorial dispute with Russia. So what else did he think to achieve?
    I also thought the aim was to get just enough of the Ukraine that Crimea was accessible by land without entering the Ukraine. That to me seemed the son back in October / November
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,061
    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Latest YouGov breakdown:

    London
    Lab 47%
    Con 21%
    LD 16%
    Grn 9%

    Rest of South
    Con 39%
    Lab 35%
    LD 13%
    Grn 8%

    Midlands and Wales
    Lab 40%
    Con 35%
    LD 9%

    North
    Lab 44%
    Con 32%
    Grn 7%
    LD 7%

    Scotland
    SNP 53%
    Lab 18%
    Con 18%
    LD 6%

    (YouGov / The Times Survey; Sample Size: 1,656; 26th - 27th January 2022)

    Are the Liberal Democrats nudging up in London? Could be a good May for them. How would it look if they overtook the Conservatives in the capital and former fiefdom of the prime minister?

    Definite signs of Con recovery in the Midlands.

    Looking bleak for unionists in Scotland
    Really? 53% support a party you keep telling us doesn't want independence.
    I think he puts that on its leadership not rank and file support.
This discussion has been closed.