So how does Putin get out of this? He’s marched his men to the top of the hill but the payoff I think he was expecting hasn’t happened. He wanted to drive a wedge between Ukraine and the west so that it was isolated and compliant. Instead Ukraine is closer to the west than ever.
Another disappointment for him must be the US response which has been surprisingly robust. Of course it is not the US who is gambling with 2-3m refugees pouring into Western Europe but the EU and, indirectly, us.
So we need to find a way of saving face for Putin so he has an alternative to war he can live with. I am not sure I am seeing it.
One glimmer of hope is that Russias internal media has been very quiet on the issue, with very little domestic sabre rattling.
I do wonder if annexing Belarus is the real objective. The Russians now have a big army there, and the recent history of protests did carry risk of a free and democratic Belarus. That would have been something that Putin would not want.
An interesting theory, and not the first time I’ve heard it mentioned. Belarus is friendly enough, and might be ‘encouraged’ to join back with Russia. Belarus GDP per capita is around 60% of that of Russia. This might be a ‘win; for Putin that doesn’t involve going into Ukraine, now that the international community is prepared to help the Ukrainians defend themselves.
See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.
Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
Johnsons history as a diplomat is not exactly encouraging. Doesn't read his briefs, doesn't understand the countries he visits, and has an inconsistency that beggars belief. He agrees with whoever he meets, and would be played with like a mouse by a cat if he meets Putin.
These are very dangerous times and we have a lying buffoon as a Prime Minister, who is deluded enough to see himself as a reincarnation of Winston Churchill.
Presumably right now BJ is scribbling some couplet by Kipling on The Great Game onto his already grubby shirt cuff.
It is unlikely world leaders take Boris at all seriously. They would appreciate and be sympathetic to his need to cut a dash in order to distract from domestic issues. They would do much the same. It's part of the playbook.
His diplomatic contributions will be quietly ignored. As usual the US, Germany and France will decide policy.
The UK's reputation for politics went out the window when we announced that our brilliant new Trade Policy was to cut ourselves off from our biggest trading market. We then elected a woman who had no ability to relate to other world leaders, appointed a buffoon as Foreign Secretary and then promoted him to PM whilst appointing a void of vacuum as the next Foreign Secretary.
(YouGov / The Times Survey; Sample Size: 1,656; 26th - 27th January 2022)
Are the Liberal Democrats nudging up in London? Could be a good May for them. How would it look if they overtook the Conservatives in the capital and former fiefdom of the prime minister?
Definite signs of Con recovery in the Midlands.
Looking bleak for unionists in Scotland
Not at all. It does not matter if the SNP got 99%, this Tory UK government will continue to refuse indyref2 and Sturgeon will continue to rule out UDI.
I know its futile to raise this, but surely you can accept the Union would be in a stronger position if Unionist parties had more support, and that if the SNP did get so much backing that would be damaging for it's long term prospects?
You're right. It is futile. The other bits are also right.
See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.
Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
And of course he was such a success as Foreign Secretary, (a lady in an iraqi prison stirs...another he threw under the bus)
Edit : Iranian
Iranian woman, Iranian prison.
British passport holder. What's your point, caller?
Iranian passport holder.
British passports aren't recognised for dual nationals in their other nation.
And she was in prison and having her sentence extended before Boris ever spoke. Blame the Iranians for her being there, nobody else.
Trying to blame Boris takes the focus off the Iranians where it belongs.
As long as we aren't trying to wash our hands of her by calling her "Iranian" as if she isn't also British.
For some people on here, there is no a*s too dirty to kiss....
(YouGov / The Times Survey; Sample Size: 1,656; 26th - 27th January 2022)
Are the Liberal Democrats nudging up in London? Could be a good May for them. How would it look if they overtook the Conservatives in the capital and former fiefdom of the prime minister?
Definite signs of Con recovery in the Midlands.
Looking bleak for unionists in Scotland
Not at all. It does not matter if the SNP got 99%, this Tory UK government will continue to refuse indyref2 and Sturgeon will continue to rule out UDI.
I know its futile to raise this, but surely you can accept the Union would be in a stronger position if Unionist parties had more support, and that if the SNP did get so much backing that would be damaging for it's long term prospects?
The Union is in a stronger position with a UK government that will refuse indyref2 with the SNP on about 50% than with a UK government that will allow indyref2 with the SNP on about 40% but still in power at Holyrood.
For as we know referendums are unpredictable. If Starmer becomes PM and needs SNP confidence and supply he would allow indyref2. This Tory government however as long as it is in power never will
In fairness to Mike, who tipped the under 50% bet, the polls have shifted in the Tories favour in the intervening week. They could easily have gone the other way. Johnson saved by the incompetence of the Metropolitan Police.
Not so. He'll go next week and we'll all be amazed we ever expected anything else
It's interesting that Boris's two biggest fans on here both live outside the UK. I suppose it was the same with Berlusconi. How we'd laugh at his Bunga Bunga parties from a safe distance
I remember hearing of the defenestration of Maggie while staying in a hostel in Borneo. The common room was mostly British and Irish, with a few Australians, Dutch and the inevitable Germans. It was in the days before phones and social media, so quite a chatty bunch, talking about plans and where to go next.
In walks a slightly shocked looking local owner, who announces that Maggie had gone, followed by a spontaneous cheer from the Brits and Irish. Foreigners often fail to understand how unpopular leaders are domestically. Something that we should consider both in Russia and Ukraine BTW.
The inverse, too. English posters about Sturgeon, and all of us about Trump.
Yes, I agree. Sturgeon often seems to poll better south of the border than north.
See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.
Fine by me. The longer Johnson lasts the deeper the hole the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party finds itself in. And the harder it becomes for Scottish Labour and the Scottish Liberal Democrats to ally themselves with thoroughly discredited ‘Muscular Unionism’.
However, I do feel sorry for the mainland Europeans being used as pawns in the British state’s transparent Divide & Rule modus operandi. Luckily, the big boys in the room, the EU and the USA, see the self-wounded beast as a shadow of what it once was.
Germany seems unaccountably nervous about Russia, despite its structural weakness, but it appears that their resolve has been successfully stiffened in recent days
Thinking back on the Graygate saga, feels like one of two things is true: 1. She has uncovered some serious shit that the police really need to dig into with a clear slate. Like Perverting the Course of Justice 2. Its a cover-up. Doesn't look good for the system to have the PM and civil service breaking the rules on such a grand scale, so go all in and have a compliant Met bury it.
Still not sure which it is. Would be good news for Boris and his off-shore fan club if it wasn't for this simple truth: there is more to come. Boris is not an honest politician, not a competent politician and is almost certain to have done a lot more than we already know. And thats not just parties, its the flat refurb, PPE contracts, the whole smash.
So the "he'll get away with this and people will move on" hope is built on this being the lot. Such hopes have been expressed before. And every time more pain is leaked to the press...
See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.
Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
And of course he was such a success as Foreign Secretary, (a lady in an iraqi prison stirs...another he threw under the bus)
Edit : Iranian
Iranian woman, Iranian prison.
British passport holder. What's your point, caller?
Iranian passport holder.
British passports aren't recognised for dual nationals in their other nation.
And she was in prison and having her sentence extended before Boris ever spoke. Blame the Iranians for her being there, nobody else.
Trying to blame Boris takes the focus off the Iranians where it belongs.
Apportionment of Johnson's share of the blame is perfectly acceptable. He blundered in and made a bad situation worse. Circumstances would have been less bad had he stfu.
Now having made such a monumental blunder, someone with a shred of decency would have moved Heaven and earth to get her out, just to right his part of the wrong.
See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.
Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
And of course he was such a success as Foreign Secretary, (a lady in an iraqi prison stirs...another he threw under the bus)
Edit : Iranian
Iranian woman, Iranian prison.
British passport holder. What's your point, caller?
A reasonable understanding of jurisdictional issues surrounding dual citizenship, is my point.
What ever the rights and (Iranian) wrongs of the case, the UK is VERY clear that it cannot intervene against the “other” country of a dual passport holder if they get into trouble in that country. No cakeism allowed.
So how does Putin get out of this? He’s marched his men to the top of the hill but the payoff I think he was expecting hasn’t happened. He wanted to drive a wedge between Ukraine and the west so that it was isolated and compliant. Instead Ukraine is closer to the west than ever.
Another disappointment for him must be the US response which has been surprisingly robust. Of course it is not the US who is gambling with 2-3m refugees pouring into Western Europe but the EU and, indirectly, us.
So we need to find a way of saving face for Putin so he has an alternative to war he can live with. I am not sure I am seeing it.
Indeed. This is not regular game playing it seems, the stakes for mustering so much on the border are damn high. Yet given one of his demands seems to be that the world invent a time machine to return to 1997 he surely cannot have expected to get that, so...what?
Ukraine not to join NATO? I recall reading years ago that would never happen precisely because of the absorption of Crimea and the east, that NATO would not want to admit a nation with an existing active territorial dispute with Russia. So what else did he think to achieve?
I also thought the aim was to get just enough of the Ukraine that Crimea was accessible by land without entering the Ukraine. That to me seemed the son back in October / November
They did build a bridge from Eastern Crimea to the mainland, but yes they are looking to take sufficient land from Eastern Ukraine to access the sea.
See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.
Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
Johnsons history as a diplomat is not exactly encouraging. Doesn't read his briefs, doesn't understand the countries he visits, and has an inconsistency that beggars belief. He agrees with whoever he meets, and would be played with like a mouse by a cat if he meets Putin.
These are very dangerous times and we have a lying buffoon as a Prime Minister, who is deluded enough to see himself as a reincarnation of Winston Churchill.
Presumably right now BJ is scribbling some couplet by Kipling on The Great Game onto his already grubby shirt cuff.
It is unlikely world leaders take Boris at all seriously. They would appreciate and be sympathetic to his need to cut a dash in order to distract from domestic issues. They would do much the same. It's part of the playbook.
His diplomatic contributions will be quietly ignored. As usual the US, Germany and France will decide policy.
The UK's reputation for politics went out the window when we announced that our brilliant new Trade Policy was to cut ourselves off from our biggest trading market. We then elected a woman who had no ability to relate to other world leaders, appointed a buffoon as Foreign Secretary and then promoted him to PM whilst appointing a void of vacuum as the next Foreign Secretary.
It is like a comedy script...
Not the only reasons, Bev, but they sure didn't help.
Regarding Ukraine. I don't think the west can claim any sort of victory. The momentum is all with Russia. The question is whether or not this is the start of an improved strategy of containment. That would start to be a bit of a setback for Putin. But it is too early to declare this.
(YouGov / The Times Survey; Sample Size: 1,656; 26th - 27th January 2022)
Are the Liberal Democrats nudging up in London? Could be a good May for them. How would it look if they overtook the Conservatives in the capital and former fiefdom of the prime minister?
Definite signs of Con recovery in the Midlands.
Looking bleak for unionists in Scotland
Not at all. It does not matter if the SNP got 99%, this Tory UK government will continue to refuse indyref2 and Sturgeon will continue to rule out UDI.
I know its futile to raise this, but surely you can accept the Union would be in a stronger position if Unionist parties had more support, and that if the SNP did get so much backing that would be damaging for it's long term prospects?
The Union is in a stronger position with a UK government that will refuse indyref2 with the SNP on about 50% than with a UK government that will allow indyref2 with the SNP on about 40% but still in power at Holyrood.
For as we know referendums are unpredictable. If Starmer becomes PM and needs SNP confidence and supply he would allow indyref2. This Tory government however as long as it is in power never will
Laughable. Your personal acceptance of immorality is one thing - the rest of us have standards. The longer this goes on, especially if the Met coverup of the Gray report is total, the worse "the union" gets up here. You keep prattling on about "this government" and indyref2 as if "this government" is permanent. It isn't.
This country is broken in so many ways. Structural inequality, corruption which is more subtle and deeper-rooted than in other corrupt countries, a broken democracy, a broken border and a deep pit of cynicism which will drive more and more people away from voting at all.
If you think that is all good news because your party is in government now, you truly are an epic fool. All governments fall. And when this one does we get to appreciate the damage it has done and wonder if it can ever be repaired.
On the previous thread (apologies Pip) HYUFD claimed that Boris was hated by Remainers because we blame him for Brexit and hated on the Left because he won in 2019.
I don't blame Boris particularly for either.
1. The Brexit win was the brainchild of Dom Cummings but what amazes me about this is that over 5 years later, the people obsessing about Brexit aren't my former remainer friends, it's Brexiteers. They go on and on and on and on and on about it. Some of the articles are pure paranoia. It's not just people like HY and Leon on here, it's writers in the Telegraph and Paul Staines on order-order etc.
Although I'm sad about what happened in 2016 I don't spend my life thinking about it. I have a thousand other things that matter more right now and I don't envisage any bandwagon to rejoin: something which again I just find the most bizarre obsession amongst Brexiteers.
I also don't 'blame' Boris. Johnson jumped late onto the andwagon for pure career opportunism. But it was a decision of the British people in a fair vote.
It's almost as if this obsession amongst Brexiteers suggests that they are paranoid? Or mentally unwell. Seriously, and that's not a term I use lightly.
2. 2019. I don't blame Boris for winning in 2019. If I were to blame anyone it would be the Labour Party for electing as a leader a man who was unfit to lead them or to present himself to the country for high office.
But, again, ultimately it was the British people who chose Boris Johnson so how am I supposed to blame Boris?
As for the man himself, many people responded brilliantly with all the flaws in Boris Johnson so there's no need for me to repeat them. He is manifestly unfit for the job in every political and moral sense.
He will take down the tory party if they don't take him down first.
Any concrete Brexit will betray the ideals of most Brexit voters, because of the ragtag coalition assembled to win in 2016.
The only possible exception is those who felt that we had to leave, no matter what or how, as from a burning building.
This isn't an argument for a quick rejoin, but it does mean that the paranoia is likely to go on for quite some time.
The paranoia is because of the perception that so many in positions of power/authority were seeking to overturn the democratically expressed views of the voters.
The personnel hasn’t changed. There will remain suspicion as a result.
By Andrew Adonis. A nutter who believes the “end of Boris” somehow means “the end of Brexit”
Nonetheless it’s an interesting read. However he ignores the greatest obstacle of all, on the road to any Irish unity. As long as there is a threat of violence, from either side, it won’t happen
The loyalists got punchy over a few customs controls in the Irish Sea. A poll on unity would lead to bombs and murders
It’s not going to happen for a generation or two, which in practical, political terms is never
Ireland should aspire to some kind of co-sovereignty, where both flags fly. The position of Ulster is already blurred. Just blur it some more
The EU doesn’t understand blurring
Otherwise the whole status of NI would have been resolved already.
On the previous thread (apologies Pip) HYUFD claimed that Boris was hated by Remainers because we blame him for Brexit and hated on the Left because he won in 2019.
I don't blame Boris particularly for either.
1. The Brexit win was the brainchild of Dom Cummings but what amazes me about this is that over 5 years later, the people obsessing about Brexit aren't my former remainer friends, it's Brexiteers. They go on and on and on and on and on about it. Some of the articles are pure paranoia. It's not just people like HY and Leon on here, it's writers in the Telegraph and Paul Staines on order-order etc.
Although I'm sad about what happened in 2016 I don't spend my life thinking about it. I have a thousand other things that matter more right now and I don't envisage any bandwagon to rejoin: something which again I just find the most bizarre obsession amongst Brexiteers.
I also don't 'blame' Boris. Johnson jumped late onto the andwagon for pure career opportunism. But it was a decision of the British people in a fair vote.
It's almost as if this obsession amongst Brexiteers suggests that they are paranoid? Or mentally unwell. Seriously, and that's not a term I use lightly.
2. 2019. I don't blame Boris for winning in 2019. If I were to blame anyone it would be the Labour Party for electing as a leader a man who was unfit to lead them or to present himself to the country for high office.
But, again, ultimately it was the British people who chose Boris Johnson so how am I supposed to blame Boris?
As for the man himself, many people responded brilliantly with all the flaws in Boris Johnson so there's no need for me to repeat them. He is manifestly unfit for the job in every political and moral sense.
He will take down the tory party if they don't take him down first.
Regarding your comment about those obsessed with Brexit you are spot on. I hadn't considered this before but all my posts on Brexit are in response to Brexiters raising the issue. I don't believe I have ever made a post on the subject since the 2019 election otherwise. Could be wrong.
OK. Let’s check that theory. It’s quite simple to do
Who is the first person to raise the question of Brexit on this brand new thread? Ah yes. A demented Remainer @heatherner in a 12 paragraph comment which is all about Brexit where he moans that it is only Brexiteers that are obsessed with Brexit
lol
Not very scientific Leon :
a) sample of 1
b) refers to a thread full of it contradicting suggestion
c) Exaggeration - 10 paras
d) Doesn't answer example I have given (admittedly also a sample of 1)
My anger at Cressida Dick and the Met is every bit as strong this morning as it was yesterday, and it has to be said she has filleted a report of profound national importance by her breathtaking incompetence
This must be the moment for the country to attack her directly, and demand the full unredacted report is issued by Sue Gray as a matter of national interest
If Dick and the unions want to protect a few junior civil servants from a FPN, and spend one million plus pounds in the process, then it has to be the catalyst for all of us across the political divide to demand her resignation
This morning media news is hardly featuring the impending release of the report, and the narrative seems to be that Dick's action has saved Boris.
Boris should have had to face the release of the complete report and then accept the consequences and we are all poorer directly because of Cressida Dick
See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.
Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
And of course he was such a success as Foreign Secretary, (a lady in an iraqi prison stirs...another he threw under the bus)
Edit : Iranian
Iranian woman, Iranian prison.
British passport holder. What's your point, caller?
Iranian passport holder.
British passports aren't recognised for dual nationals in their other nation.
And she was in prison and having her sentence extended before Boris ever spoke. Blame the Iranians for her being there, nobody else.
Trying to blame Boris takes the focus off the Iranians where it belongs.
Apportionment of Johnson's share of the blame is perfectly acceptable. He blundered in and made a bad situation worse. Circumstances would have been less bad had he stfu.
Now having made such a monumental blunder, someone with a shred of decency would have moved Heaven and earth to get her out, just to right his part of the wrong.
Or resigned
It is patently obvious what happened. He was given a briefing note which said A is doing X, but we must say she is doing Y, and couldnt be arsed to read beyond X. To say this made no difference, even if it is true, is like excusing an incompetent surgeon because the patient would probably have died anyway.
The paranoia is because of the perception that so many in positions of power/authority were seeking to overturn the democratically expressed views of the voters.
Brexiteers are paranoid the voters will find out they were sold a pup, and extract revenge
Maybe Putin's plan was to snaffle (more formally) part of the eastern mainland of Ukraine, and he's been surprised by the response by the West?
Morning MD
I doubt he's been that surprised by the response. He might gain some domestic support through this, and has obviously made a bit of a splash in Belarus. I don't know if there are any Ukrainian pro-Russian movements that might also get some oxygen? A general disincentive to any others who might be contemplating straying from the Russian embrace too?
Quite possibly though he was just seeing if the West made a major blunder and caved, and then his troops could have happily strolled in.
I just hope that the crisis has evolved as far as it's going to now though.
By Andrew Adonis. A nutter who believes the “end of Boris” somehow means “the end of Brexit”
Nonetheless it’s an interesting read. However he ignores the greatest obstacle of all, on the road to any Irish unity. As long as there is a threat of violence, from either side, it won’t happen
The loyalists got punchy over a few customs controls in the Irish Sea. A poll on unity would lead to bombs and murders
It’s not going to happen for a generation or two, which in practical, political terms is never
Ireland should aspire to some kind of co-sovereignty, where both flags fly. The position of Ulster is already blurred. Just blur it some more
The EU doesn’t understand blurring
Otherwise the whole status of NI would have been resolved already.
Yes, NI has always worked on their own special type of fudge. More blurred lines than Robin Thicke.
So how does Putin get out of this? He’s marched his men to the top of the hill but the payoff I think he was expecting hasn’t happened. He wanted to drive a wedge between Ukraine and the west so that it was isolated and compliant. Instead Ukraine is closer to the west than ever.
Another disappointment for him must be the US response which has been surprisingly robust. Of course it is not the US who is gambling with 2-3m refugees pouring into Western Europe but the EU and, indirectly, us.
So we need to find a way of saving face for Putin so he has an alternative to war he can live with. I am not sure I am seeing it.
Indeed. This is not regular game playing it seems, the stakes for mustering so much on the border are damn high. Yet given one of his demands seems to be that the world invent a time machine to return to 1997 he surely cannot have expected to get that, so...what?
Ukraine not to join NATO? I recall reading years ago that would never happen precisely because of the absorption of Crimea and the east, that NATO would not want to admit a nation with an existing active territorial dispute with Russia. So what else did he think to achieve?
It is surely simpler than that. You can't have a foreign power telling you who you may and may not enter into treaties with.
Nevertheless the West really ought to accept that Russia is a rather frightened mid-range economy increasingly surrounded by countries it does not like because they are on the whole liberal, democratic and successful. If it didn't have nukes there would be little reason to worry about it. It's unlikely to use them of course but nobody wants to play dare.
So what does it want? I suspect its deeply unpopular President simply wants to carry on as before, robbing the populace blind and buttressing his position with cronies. Occasional shows of strength help to distract from the ineptitude of the administartion and the country's continuing decline in importance on the world stage.
For some reason I started thinking about Boris and the UK at this point but I'd better stop there. Work to do.
I suspect that the Gray Report won't be as black and white as some of us expect, and others hope. As far as the birthday party is concerned it will be described as a massive error of judgment by the Cabinet, collectively, in welcoming Mrs J (was she then..... can't remember) and especially the interior designer. Giving a cake is understandable, if misguided, and the two visitors should have immediately left. However, the interior designer raises another couple of questions. What was she doing in the place at all, at the time? Even if she's a friend of Mrs J!
The Garden Party will also be a massive error by both whoever organised it and by the PM. His duty, if he's telling the truth*, was to say something like "back to desks or out!", turn round and walk back to his room.
The same applies to all the other staff drinks do's. In both cases, whoever organised them is due a large fine, and all the attenders smaller ones.
In summary the 'activities' will be described as gross errors by people who should have known better, coupled with a catastrophic failure of leadership by the top Civil Servant, and a blind eye by the PM.
(YouGov / The Times Survey; Sample Size: 1,656; 26th - 27th January 2022)
Are the Liberal Democrats nudging up in London? Could be a good May for them. How would it look if they overtook the Conservatives in the capital and former fiefdom of the prime minister?
Definite signs of Con recovery in the Midlands.
Looking bleak for unionists in Scotland
Not at all. It does not matter if the SNP got 99%, this Tory UK government will continue to refuse indyref2 and Sturgeon will continue to rule out UDI.
I know its futile to raise this, but surely you can accept the Union would be in a stronger position if Unionist parties had more support, and that if the SNP did get so much backing that would be damaging for it's long term prospects?
HYUFD does know that but he's sublimated it very deeply into his current vision of Unionism by diktat. He can't stop it popping out every so often though when he excitedly highlights the SCon vote share going up by a couple of MOE % points in a Scottish subsample.
Regarding Ukraine. I don't think the west can claim any sort of victory. The momentum is all with Russia. The question is whether or not this is the start of an improved strategy of containment. That would start to be a bit of a setback for Putin. But it is too early to declare this.
If this report of lack of enthusiasm on the streets of Moscow is accurate, it looks like Putin will have some difficulties convincing Russians to back an invasion.
See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.
Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
And of course he was such a success as Foreign Secretary, (a lady in an iraqi prison stirs...another he threw under the bus)
Edit : Iranian
Iranian woman, Iranian prison.
British passport holder. What's your point, caller?
A reasonable understanding of jurisdictional issues surrounding dual citizenship, is my point.
What ever the rights and (Iranian) wrongs of the case, the UK is VERY clear that it cannot intervene against the “other” country of a dual passport holder if they get into trouble in that country. No cakeism allowed.
In which case why was he talking about it to a public HoC committee in the first place, in circumstances where he was in fact quoted in an Iranian court 3 days later?
Johnson has gone way past inviting political disagreement, to moral disgust, and defending him in these kind of terms looks pretty borderline too.
So how does Putin get out of this? He’s marched his men to the top of the hill but the payoff I think he was expecting hasn’t happened. He wanted to drive a wedge between Ukraine and the west so that it was isolated and compliant. Instead Ukraine is closer to the west than ever.
Another disappointment for him must be the US response which has been surprisingly robust. Of course it is not the US who is gambling with 2-3m refugees pouring into Western Europe but the EU and, indirectly, us.
So we need to find a way of saving face for Putin so he has an alternative to war he can live with. I am not sure I am seeing it.
Indeed. This is not regular game playing it seems, the stakes for mustering so much on the border are damn high. Yet given one of his demands seems to be that the world invent a time machine to return to 1997 he surely cannot have expected to get that, so...what?
Ukraine not to join NATO? I recall reading years ago that would never happen precisely because of the absorption of Crimea and the east, that NATO would not want to admit a nation with an existing active territorial dispute with Russia. So what else did he think to achieve?
It is surely simpler than that. You can't have a foreign power telling you who you may and may not enter into treaties with.
Nevertheless the West really ought to accept that Russia is a rather frightened mid-range economy increasingly surrounded by countries it does not like because they are on the whole liberal, democratic and successful. If it didn't have nukes there would be little reason to worry about it. It's unlikely to use them of course but nobody wants to play dare.
So what does it want? I suspect its deeply unpopular President simply wants to carry on as before, robbing the populace blind and buttressing his position with cronies. Occasional shows of strength help to distract from the ineptitude of the administartion and the country's continuing decline in importance on the world stage.
For some reason I started thinking about Boris and the UK at this point but I'd better stop there. Work to do.
Laters.
I was thinking about how well your description fitted Boris and the UK then I read your final paragraph.
On the previous thread (apologies Pip) HYUFD claimed that Boris was hated by Remainers because we blame him for Brexit and hated on the Left because he won in 2019.
I don't blame Boris particularly for either.
1. The Brexit win was the brainchild of Dom Cummings but what amazes me about this is that over 5 years later, the people obsessing about Brexit aren't my former remainer friends, it's Brexiteers. They go on and on and on and on and on about it. Some of the articles are pure paranoia. It's not just people like HY and Leon on here, it's writers in the Telegraph and Paul Staines on order-order etc.
Although I'm sad about what happened in 2016 I don't spend my life thinking about it. I have a thousand other things that matter more right now and I don't envisage any bandwagon to rejoin: something which again I just find the most bizarre obsession amongst Brexiteers.
I also don't 'blame' Boris. Johnson jumped late onto the andwagon for pure career opportunism. But it was a decision of the British people in a fair vote.
It's almost as if this obsession amongst Brexiteers suggests that they are paranoid? Or mentally unwell. Seriously, and that's not a term I use lightly.
2. 2019. I don't blame Boris for winning in 2019. If I were to blame anyone it would be the Labour Party for electing as a leader a man who was unfit to lead them or to present himself to the country for high office.
But, again, ultimately it was the British people who chose Boris Johnson so how am I supposed to blame Boris?
As for the man himself, many people responded brilliantly with all the flaws in Boris Johnson so there's no need for me to repeat them. He is manifestly unfit for the job in every political and moral sense.
He will take down the tory party if they don't take him down first.
Any concrete Brexit will betray the ideals of most Brexit voters, because of the ragtag coalition assembled to win in 2016.
The only possible exception is those who felt that we had to leave, no matter what or how, as from a burning building.
This isn't an argument for a quick rejoin, but it does mean that the paranoia is likely to go on for quite some time.
The paranoia is because of the perception that so many in positions of power/authority were seeking to overturn the democratically expressed views of the voters.
The personnel hasn’t changed. There will remain suspicion as a result.
Which is why the paranoids are paranoid. A fundamental lack of understanding of the system in 2 ways:
1. "Should the United Kingdom Remain a Member of the European Union or Leave the European Union". We left. Brexit is over. Done. What we do *after* we leave is not Brexit and was not bound or directed by the referendum.
2. We had a referendum in the 2015 parliament which didn't bind that parliament. We then had a general election in 2017 and elected a new parliament. No parliament is bound by its successors - literally the "sovereignty" that so many parroted when asked why Brexit?
The paranoids are really going to hate what happens next. After a few years of delays we have part-implemented a new Border Operating Model that doesn't work. As traffic levels increase and we implement the rest of it in April and July it will become painfully obvious even to the least observant that the BOP adopted doesn't work. We will need to change it. Loosen it. Drop much of the checks and red tape. "BETRAYAL" will shriek the paranoids.
My anger at Cressida Dick and the Met is every bit as strong this morning as it was yesterday, and it has to be said she has filleted a report of profound national importance by her breathtaking incompetence
This must be the moment for the country to attack her directly, and demand the full unredacted report is issued by Sue Gray as a matter of national interest
If Dick and the unions want to protect a few junior civil servants from a FPN, and spend one million plus pounds in the process, then it has to be the catalyst for all of us across the political divide to demand her resignation
This morning media news is hardly featuring the impending release of the report, and the narrative seems to be that Dick's action has saved Boris.
Boris should have had to face the release of the complete report and then accept the consequences and we are all poorer directly because of Cressida Dick
Good post Big G. Re redaction of junior civil servants I wouldn't rely on the competence of the redaction. I did a FOI of BEIS a few years a go. Their competence in redaction was appalling. They got taken apart by the Information Commissioner, but one of the funniest bits was redacting email addresses but if I hovered the mouse over the redacted address I could read it anyway. Totally incompetent.
Regarding Ukraine. I don't think the west can claim any sort of victory. The momentum is all with Russia. The question is whether or not this is the start of an improved strategy of containment. That would start to be a bit of a setback for Putin. But it is too early to declare this.
I'm far from convinced Putin has ever wanted to intervene militarily. A lot of this is about pressing Zelensky and especially in his dealings with Akhmetov who I would imagine would be Putin's ideal candidate to be President of the Ukraine.
An internal political upheaval in Kiev as an excuse for a peaceful intervention might have been the Putin game plan but that was either uncovered or never got the traction within Ukraine.
My anger at Cressida Dick and the Met is every bit as strong this morning as it was yesterday, and it has to be said she has filleted a report of profound national importance by her breathtaking incompetence
This must be the moment for the country to attack her directly, and demand the full unredacted report is issued by Sue Gray as a matter of national interest
If Dick and the unions want to protect a few junior civil servants from a FPN, and spend one million plus pounds in the process, then it has to be the catalyst for all of us across the political divide to demand her resignation
This morning media news is hardly featuring the impending release of the report, and the narrative seems to be that Dick's action has saved Boris.
Boris should have had to face the release of the complete report and then accept the consequences and we are all poorer directly because of Cressida Dick
Whilst I agree with every word of this, the issue with the Met is wider than with just the Commissioner. We need to abolish the Met and found the Police Service for London. I'm surprised none of the bigwig politicians have said so yet.
So how does Putin get out of this? He’s marched his men to the top of the hill but the payoff I think he was expecting hasn’t happened. He wanted to drive a wedge between Ukraine and the west so that it was isolated and compliant. Instead Ukraine is closer to the west than ever.
Another disappointment for him must be the US response which has been surprisingly robust. Of course it is not the US who is gambling with 2-3m refugees pouring into Western Europe but the EU and, indirectly, us.
So we need to find a way of saving face for Putin so he has an alternative to war he can live with. I am not sure I am seeing it.
One glimmer of hope is that Russias internal media has been very quiet on the issue, with very little domestic sabre rattling.
I do wonder if annexing Belarus is the real objective. The Russians now have a big army there, and the recent history of protests did carry risk of a free and democratic Belarus. That would have been something that Putin would not want.
An interesting theory, and not the first time I’ve heard it mentioned. Belarus is friendly enough, and might be ‘encouraged’ to join back with Russia. Belarus GDP per capita is around 60% of that of Russia. This might be a ‘win; for Putin that doesn’t involve going into Ukraine, now that the international community is prepared to help the Ukrainians defend themselves.
Yes, and to Russians, it would be a step to reuniting the three Russias, ignoring the fact that Ukraine (Little Russia) has significant areas and population that were never Russian, but were Hapsburg Austria.
So how does Putin get out of this? He’s marched his men to the top of the hill but the payoff I think he was expecting hasn’t happened. He wanted to drive a wedge between Ukraine and the west so that it was isolated and compliant. Instead Ukraine is closer to the west than ever.
Another disappointment for him must be the US response which has been surprisingly robust. Of course it is not the US who is gambling with 2-3m refugees pouring into Western Europe but the EU and, indirectly, us.
So we need to find a way of saving face for Putin so he has an alternative to war he can live with. I am not sure I am seeing it.
I disagree.
We can offer talks - which we have - about mutual disarmament or coordination. But that’s a meaningless fig leave and everyone knows it.
His demands were extreme - he was trying to anchor the discussion in the way Trump used to - but he wasn’t expecting them to be rejected in toto.
So the options for him are:
1) back off with a fig leaf which severely weakens his position in Russia
2) stir up unrest in Donetsk and hope that the West won’t get involved. I think that he has been too overt to get away with this now. Outcome is a slapping for Russia and, probably, reincorporation of Eastern Ukraine into the country with appropriate political guarantees. Painful for Putin
3) More serious military activity involving Russia directly. I think the West becomes fully supportive of Ukraine here, even if not with official boots on the ground. Russia loses and the cost is Crimea. Possibly fatal for Putin
He has no good options. But it’s important that the West stands firm. Otherwise he’ll just try again later
@rcs1000 made a good point recently - that Putin would do well to learn a basic lesson of war. That territorial gains come at a great and potentially devastating cost, when they bring disruptive populations that are time and resource consuming to manage.
I doubt the Russians have overlooked this point. I believe that their direct territorial ambitions are limited to specific areas of strategic value. Their wider goal is to have a sphere of political influence which ultimately includes the whole continent of Europe, of which the ancient Russian nation would be placed at the centre. Such a system could be achieved without war and within a relatively short timeframe, but could potentially represent the end of western liberal civilisation as we know it.
On this analysis, ongoing military activities can be seen in context. The 'invasion of Ukraine' is not necessarily the emergence of encroaching, Hitler like monster. It is more likely part of a strategy to test of the resolve of the western alliance, fracturing its component parts as it tries to 'contain' the threat, with the long term goal being submission of the type I have described above.
The paranoia is because of the perception that so many in positions of power/authority were seeking to overturn the democratically expressed views of the voters.
Brexiteers are paranoid the voters will find out they were sold a pup, and extract revenge
I simply do not buy into your constant carping on brexit and your desire for revenge
The country has moved on, and while improvements with our relationship with the EU is desirable, there is no political will to seek to rejoin and the longer we remain outside the EU and develop other trading relationships the less likely rejoining becomes
I really hope you can in time work to persuade us to develop a better relationship with the EU without the inflammatory self defeating language you tend to us
So how does Putin get out of this? He’s marched his men to the top of the hill but the payoff I think he was expecting hasn’t happened. He wanted to drive a wedge between Ukraine and the west so that it was isolated and compliant. Instead Ukraine is closer to the west than ever.
Another disappointment for him must be the US response which has been surprisingly robust. Of course it is not the US who is gambling with 2-3m refugees pouring into Western Europe but the EU and, indirectly, us.
So we need to find a way of saving face for Putin so he has an alternative to war he can live with. I am not sure I am seeing it.
Indeed. This is not regular game playing it seems, the stakes for mustering so much on the border are damn high. Yet given one of his demands seems to be that the world invent a time machine to return to 1997 he surely cannot have expected to get that, so...what?
Ukraine not to join NATO? I recall reading years ago that would never happen precisely because of the absorption of Crimea and the east, that NATO would not want to admit a nation with an existing active territorial dispute with Russia. So what else did he think to achieve?
I also thought the aim was to get just enough of the Ukraine that Crimea was accessible by land without entering the Ukraine. That to me seemed the son back in October / November
They did build a bridge from Eastern Crimea to the mainland, but yes they are looking to take sufficient land from Eastern Ukraine to access the sea.
If they go all the way to Transnistria then they sweep up the Ukrainian naval bases at Odessa and Nikolaev. What's left of Ukraine would have no access to the Black Sea and it fixes the Crimea access and water issues. It's a huge strategic prize if it can be done and pushes the Russian border right up to Romania.
The paranoia is because of the perception that so many in positions of power/authority were seeking to overturn the democratically expressed views of the voters.
Brexiteers are paranoid the voters will find out they were sold a pup, and extract revenge
I simply do not buy into your constant carping on brexit and your desire for revenge
The country has moved on, and while improvements with our relationship with the EU is desirable, there is no political will to seek to rejoin and the longer we remain outside the EU and develop other trading relationships the less likely rejoining becomes
I really hope you can in time work to persuade us to develop a better relationship with the EU without the inflammatory self defeating language you tend to us
I'm not sure you're right about 'no political will to seek to rejoin'; there seem to be quite a few organisations around the country, notably the European Movement, which was sadly, and insanely, sidelined during the Referendum, which are campaigning for Rejoin.
By Andrew Adonis. A nutter who believes the “end of Boris” somehow means “the end of Brexit”
Nonetheless it’s an interesting read. However he ignores the greatest obstacle of all, on the road to any Irish unity. As long as there is a threat of violence, from either side, it won’t happen
The loyalists got punchy over a few customs controls in the Irish Sea. A poll on unity would lead to bombs and murders
It’s not going to happen for a generation or two, which in practical, political terms is never
Ireland should aspire to some kind of co-sovereignty, where both flags fly. The position of Ulster is already blurred. Just blur it some more
Lol. You just contradicted your separate argument. A Brexiters raising Brexit.
The paranoia is because of the perception that so many in positions of power/authority were seeking to overturn the democratically expressed views of the voters.
Brexiteers are paranoid the voters will find out they were sold a pup, and extract revenge
I simply do not buy into your constant carping on brexit and your desire for revenge
The country has moved on, and while improvements with our relationship with the EU is desirable, there is no political will to seek to rejoin and the longer we remain outside the EU and develop other trading relationships the less likely rejoining becomes
I really hope you can in time work to persuade us to develop a better relationship with the EU without the inflammatory self defeating language you tend to us
I'm not sure you're right about 'no political will to seek to rejoin'; there seem to be quite a few organisations around the country, notably the European Movement, which was sadly, and insanely, sidelined during the Referendum, which are campaigning for Rejoin.
I would certainly vote "Rejoin" because it solves so many problems.
My anger at Cressida Dick and the Met is every bit as strong this morning as it was yesterday, and it has to be said she has filleted a report of profound national importance by her breathtaking incompetence
This must be the moment for the country to attack her directly, and demand the full unredacted report is issued by Sue Gray as a matter of national interest
If Dick and the unions want to protect a few junior civil servants from a FPN, and spend one million plus pounds in the process, then it has to be the catalyst for all of us across the political divide to demand her resignation
This morning media news is hardly featuring the impending release of the report, and the narrative seems to be that Dick's action has saved Boris.
Boris should have had to face the release of the complete report and then accept the consequences and we are all poorer directly because of Cressida Dick
Whilst I agree with every word of this, the issue with the Met is wider than with just the Commissioner. We need to abolish the Met and found the Police Service for London. I'm surprised none of the bigwig politicians have said so yet.
Why said the big-wigs say such a thing? Having a Get-out-of-jail-free card is useful....
By Andrew Adonis. A nutter who believes the “end of Boris” somehow means “the end of Brexit”
Nonetheless it’s an interesting read. However he ignores the greatest obstacle of all, on the road to any Irish unity. As long as there is a threat of violence, from either side, it won’t happen
The loyalists got punchy over a few customs controls in the Irish Sea. A poll on unity would lead to bombs and murders
It’s not going to happen for a generation or two, which in practical, political terms is never
Ireland should aspire to some kind of co-sovereignty, where both flags fly. The position of Ulster is already blurred. Just blur it some more
The EU doesn’t understand blurring
Otherwise the whole status of NI would have been resolved already.
Yes, NI has always worked on their own special type of fudge. More blurred lines than Robin Thicke.
On the previous thread (apologies Pip) HYUFD claimed that Boris was hated by Remainers because we blame him for Brexit and hated on the Left because he won in 2019.
I don't blame Boris particularly for either.
1. The Brexit win was the brainchild of Dom Cummings but what amazes me about this is that over 5 years later, the people obsessing about Brexit aren't my former remainer friends, it's Brexiteers. They go on and on and on and on and on about it. Some of the articles are pure paranoia. It's not just people like HY and Leon on here, it's writers in the Telegraph and Paul Staines on order-order etc.
Although I'm sad about what happened in 2016 I don't spend my life thinking about it. I have a thousand other things that matter more right now and I don't envisage any bandwagon to rejoin: something which again I just find the most bizarre obsession amongst Brexiteers.
I also don't 'blame' Boris. Johnson jumped late onto the andwagon for pure career opportunism. But it was a decision of the British people in a fair vote.
It's almost as if this obsession amongst Brexiteers suggests that they are paranoid? Or mentally unwell. Seriously, and that's not a term I use lightly.
2. 2019. I don't blame Boris for winning in 2019. If I were to blame anyone it would be the Labour Party for electing as a leader a man who was unfit to lead them or to present himself to the country for high office.
But, again, ultimately it was the British people who chose Boris Johnson so how am I supposed to blame Boris?
As for the man himself, many people responded brilliantly with all the flaws in Boris Johnson so there's no need for me to repeat them. He is manifestly unfit for the job in every political and moral sense.
He will take down the tory party if they don't take him down first.
Regarding your comment about those obsessed with Brexit you are spot on. I hadn't considered this before but all my posts on Brexit are in response to Brexiters raising the issue. I don't believe I have ever made a post on the subject since the 2019 election otherwise. Could be wrong.
OK. Let’s check that theory. It’s quite simple to do
Who is the first person to raise the question of Brexit on this brand new thread? Ah yes. A demented Remainer @heatherner in a 12 paragraph comment which is all about Brexit where he moans that it is only Brexiteers that are obsessed with Brexit
lol
Not very scientific Leon :
a) sample of 1
b) refers to a thread full of it contradicting suggestion
c) Exaggeration - 10 paras
d) Doesn't answer example I have given (admittedly also a sample of 1)
Because it’s 3pm here and my day’s work is done and it’s actually too hot to do anything but lie inert in the pool I went and checked the last 5 threads to see who first mentions the Brexit word on each one
Yes yes. Peak Nerdery
It’s an interesting exercise. In three of the threads it is definite Remainers. @IanB2@TimS and @Heathener
@rcs1000 made a good point recently - that Putin would do well to learn a basic lesson of war. That territorial gains come at a great and potentially devastating cost, when they bring disruptive populations that are time and resource consuming to manage.
I doubt the Russians have overlooked this point. I believe that their direct territorial ambitions are limited to specific areas of strategic value. Their wider goal is to have a sphere of political influence which ultimately includes the whole continent of Europe, of which the ancient Russian nation would be placed at the centre. Such a system could be achieved without war and within a relatively short timeframe, but could potentially represent the end of western liberal civilisation as we know it.
On this analysis, ongoing military activities can be seen in context. The 'invasion of Ukraine' is not necessarily the emergence of encroaching, Hitler like monster. It is more likely part of a strategy to test of the resolve of the western alliance, fracturing its component parts as it tries to 'contain' the threat, with the long term goal being submission of the type I have described above.
If Le Pen won the French Presidency and Salvini became Italian PM they would be Putin puppets anyway. If Trump was elected again as US President in 2024 he would not be anti Putin either. Nor would a PM Farage here, neither would a PM Corbyn have been. The SPD chancellor of Germany Scholz also takes a very weak line over Putin and the Ukraine.
Putin certainly wants the old USSR and Eastern Europe back in his orbit. The West he can undermine by promoting far right and populist candidates
A federal Ireland with the North keeping Stormont and its own elections would address a lot of issues and might well be acceptable to a portion of the Unionist population. The Irish Sea border is certainly assisting people in thinking in that direction since that is almost how things stand at the moment.
The paranoia is because of the perception that so many in positions of power/authority were seeking to overturn the democratically expressed views of the voters.
Brexiteers are paranoid the voters will find out they were sold a pup, and extract revenge
I simply do not buy into your constant carping on brexit and your desire for revenge
The country has moved on, and while improvements with our relationship with the EU is desirable, there is no political will to seek to rejoin and the longer we remain outside the EU and develop other trading relationships the less likely rejoining becomes
I really hope you can in time work to persuade us to develop a better relationship with the EU without the inflammatory self defeating language you tend to us
I'm not sure you're right about 'no political will to seek to rejoin'; there seem to be quite a few organisations around the country, notably the European Movement, which was sadly, and insanely, sidelined during the Referendum, which are campaigning for Rejoin.
In reality there is no mainstream desire to rejoin, though an improved relationship from outside is fairly obvious
My anger at Cressida Dick and the Met is every bit as strong this morning as it was yesterday, and it has to be said she has filleted a report of profound national importance by her breathtaking incompetence
This must be the moment for the country to attack her directly, and demand the full unredacted report is issued by Sue Gray as a matter of national interest
If Dick and the unions want to protect a few junior civil servants from a FPN, and spend one million plus pounds in the process, then it has to be the catalyst for all of us across the political divide to demand her resignation
This morning media news is hardly featuring the impending release of the report, and the narrative seems to be that Dick's action has saved Boris.
Boris should have had to face the release of the complete report and then accept the consequences and we are all poorer directly because of Cressida Dick
I am just left with a cold fury over all this.
I keep telling myself that surely there must be a good reason why Dick has behaved like this and that in the fullness of time all will be revealed e.g. now looking into something more serious.
I am not persuading myself very well to be honest. It looks on face of it as if she has directly intervened to save a PM from falling which is utterly appalling.
The paranoia is because of the perception that so many in positions of power/authority were seeking to overturn the democratically expressed views of the voters.
Brexiteers are paranoid the voters will find out they were sold a pup, and extract revenge
I simply do not buy into your constant carping on brexit and your desire for revenge
The country has moved on, and while improvements with our relationship with the EU is desirable, there is no political will to seek to rejoin and the longer we remain outside the EU and develop other trading relationships the less likely rejoining becomes
I really hope you can in time work to persuade us to develop a better relationship with the EU without the inflammatory self defeating language you tend to us
Both extremes are daft. But the country can't move on as we're now realising with a broken border model. And fixing it doesn't involve rejoining the EU.
As always the problem is that "Brexit" means different things to different people. It will always be an issue because its impossible to make supporters of Brexit happy - did they mean Singapore Brexit or Mercantile Brexit or Workers Collective Brexit?
On the previous thread (apologies Pip) HYUFD claimed that Boris was hated by Remainers because we blame him for Brexit and hated on the Left because he won in 2019.
I don't blame Boris particularly for either.
1. The Brexit win was the brainchild of Dom Cummings but what amazes me about this is that over 5 years later, the people obsessing about Brexit aren't my former remainer friends, it's Brexiteers. They go on and on and on and on and on about it. Some of the articles are pure paranoia. It's not just people like HY and Leon on here, it's writers in the Telegraph and Paul Staines on order-order etc.
Although I'm sad about what happened in 2016 I don't spend my life thinking about it. I have a thousand other things that matter more right now and I don't envisage any bandwagon to rejoin: something which again I just find the most bizarre obsession amongst Brexiteers.
I also don't 'blame' Boris. Johnson jumped late onto the andwagon for pure career opportunism. But it was a decision of the British people in a fair vote.
It's almost as if this obsession amongst Brexiteers suggests that they are paranoid? Or mentally unwell. Seriously, and that's not a term I use lightly.
2. 2019. I don't blame Boris for winning in 2019. If I were to blame anyone it would be the Labour Party for electing as a leader a man who was unfit to lead them or to present himself to the country for high office.
But, again, ultimately it was the British people who chose Boris Johnson so how am I supposed to blame Boris?
As for the man himself, many people responded brilliantly with all the flaws in Boris Johnson so there's no need for me to repeat them. He is manifestly unfit for the job in every political and moral sense.
He will take down the tory party if they don't take him down first.
Regarding your comment about those obsessed with Brexit you are spot on. I hadn't considered this before but all my posts on Brexit are in response to Brexiters raising the issue. I don't believe I have ever made a post on the subject since the 2019 election otherwise. Could be wrong.
OK. Let’s check that theory. It’s quite simple to do
Who is the first person to raise the question of Brexit on this brand new thread? Ah yes. A demented Remainer @heatherner in a 12 paragraph comment which is all about Brexit where he moans that it is only Brexiteers that are obsessed with Brexit
lol
Not very scientific Leon :
a) sample of 1
b) refers to a thread full of it contradicting suggestion
c) Exaggeration - 10 paras
d) Doesn't answer example I have given (admittedly also a sample of 1)
Because it’s 3pm here and my day’s work is done and it’s actually too hot to do anything but lie inert in the pool I went and checked the last 5 threads to see who first mentions the Brexit word on each one
Yes yes. Peak Nerdery
It’s an interesting exercise. In three of the threads it is definite Remainers. @IanB2@TimS and @Heathener
See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.
Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
And of course he was such a success as Foreign Secretary, (a lady in an iraqi prison stirs...another he threw under the bus)
Edit : Iranian
Iranian woman, Iranian prison.
British passport holder. What's your point, caller?
Iranian passport holder.
British passports aren't recognised for dual nationals in their other nation.
And she was in prison and having her sentence extended before Boris ever spoke. Blame the Iranians for her being there, nobody else.
Trying to blame Boris takes the focus off the Iranians where it belongs.
Apportionment of Johnson's share of the blame is perfectly acceptable. He blundered in and made a bad situation worse. Circumstances would have been less bad had he stfu.
Now having made such a monumental blunder, someone with a shred of decency would have moved Heaven and earth to get her out, just to right his part of the wrong.
Or resigned
It is patently obvious what happened. He was given a briefing note which said A is doing X, but we must say she is doing Y, and couldnt be arsed to read beyond X. To say this made no difference, even if it is true, is like excusing an incompetent surgeon because the patient would probably have died anyway.
Indeed, if she is one of our spies she has been hung out to dry by Johnson in a shameful way, and if not a spy it isn't any better.
A federal Ireland with the North keeping Stormont and its own elections would address a lot of issues and might well be acceptable to a portion of the Unionist population. The Irish Sea border is certainly assisting people in thinking in that direction since that is almost how things stand at the moment.
But will not be for much longer once DUP ministers ban checks on goods going to and from NI and GB which Truss will not oppose
A federal Ireland with the North keeping Stormont and its own elections would address a lot of issues and might well be acceptable to a portion of the Unionist population. The Irish Sea border is certainly assisting people in thinking in that direction since that is almost how things stand at the moment.
But will not be for much longer once DUP ministers ban checks on goods going to and from NI and GB which Truss will not oppose
On the previous thread (apologies Pip) HYUFD claimed that Boris was hated by Remainers because we blame him for Brexit and hated on the Left because he won in 2019.
I don't blame Boris particularly for either.
1. The Brexit win was the brainchild of Dom Cummings but what amazes me about this is that over 5 years later, the people obsessing about Brexit aren't my former remainer friends, it's Brexiteers. They go on and on and on and on and on about it. Some of the articles are pure paranoia. It's not just people like HY and Leon on here, it's writers in the Telegraph and Paul Staines on order-order etc.
Although I'm sad about what happened in 2016 I don't spend my life thinking about it. I have a thousand other things that matter more right now and I don't envisage any bandwagon to rejoin: something which again I just find the most bizarre obsession amongst Brexiteers.
I also don't 'blame' Boris. Johnson jumped late onto the andwagon for pure career opportunism. But it was a decision of the British people in a fair vote.
It's almost as if this obsession amongst Brexiteers suggests that they are paranoid? Or mentally unwell. Seriously, and that's not a term I use lightly.
2. 2019. I don't blame Boris for winning in 2019. If I were to blame anyone it would be the Labour Party for electing as a leader a man who was unfit to lead them or to present himself to the country for high office.
But, again, ultimately it was the British people who chose Boris Johnson so how am I supposed to blame Boris?
As for the man himself, many people responded brilliantly with all the flaws in Boris Johnson so there's no need for me to repeat them. He is manifestly unfit for the job in every political and moral sense.
He will take down the tory party if they don't take him down first.
Regarding your comment about those obsessed with Brexit you are spot on. I hadn't considered this before but all my posts on Brexit are in response to Brexiters raising the issue. I don't believe I have ever made a post on the subject since the 2019 election otherwise. Could be wrong.
OK. Let’s check that theory. It’s quite simple to do
Who is the first person to raise the question of Brexit on this brand new thread? Ah yes. A demented Remainer @heatherner in a 12 paragraph comment which is all about Brexit where he moans that it is only Brexiteers that are obsessed with Brexit
lol
Not very scientific Leon :
a) sample of 1
b) refers to a thread full of it contradicting suggestion
c) Exaggeration - 10 paras
d) Doesn't answer example I have given (admittedly also a sample of 1)
Because it’s 3pm here and my day’s work is done and it’s actually too hot to do anything but lie inert in the pool I went and checked the last 5 threads to see who first mentions the Brexit word on each one
Yes yes. Peak Nerdery
It’s an interesting exercise. In three of the threads it is definite Remainers. @IanB2@TimS and @Heathener
@MISTY who is so new to the site it is hard to say, but I’d guess perhaps Leave, but I don’t wish to presume
So the theory that it’s brexiteers who keep bringing it up unprompted is provably and empirically wrong. Which is quite a satisfying waste of my time
As you know I am a repentant Brexiteer, I'm not out campaigning for rejoin, I just want the border to work.
Some of you are still sat in blissful ignorance of the shitshow that is the GB - EU border but you won't be forever. It gets worse every week and as people start to realise just how expensive everything now is and how we keep getting shortages - and how it isn't like that in Europe - people will start to complain.
For most people who didn;t know what the EU was never mind how trade worked, whatever they thought they was getting paying more for less was not on their list. And they won't be happy. Already a stack of examples of the same item costing lots more on our side vs theirs...
Voting intentions (23rd-26th Jan): Labour – 38% (-40) Undecided – 19% Will not vote – 18% (+10) Green Party – 8% (+7) Liberal Democrats – 4% (+1) SNP – 3% (-1) Conservatives – 2% (-1) Other – 8% (+5)
They find nearly three times as many voters switching from the Tories to the Greens (11) than to Reform (4).
15% of Conservative 2019 voters say they will now vote Labour, compared to 9% now saying Lib Dem and only 11% saying undecided/would not vote/refused.
In a reversal of what I think of as a normal split, the Tories are way behind with men 43% - 26%, but nearly level with women 37% - 36%.
And, to top it all off, the Scottish subsample will probably have Stuart Dickson agreeing with OGH that looking at Scottish subsamples is a fool's errand...(!)
I agree with the thread header, the Tories only need to get around 10000 votes on a derisory turnout of around 20% and I'll be surprised if they don't.
I think UKIP might get up to 10% and ne the only party to hold their deposit but I might even be overestimating them.
On the previous thread (apologies Pip) HYUFD claimed that Boris was hated by Remainers because we blame him for Brexit and hated on the Left because he won in 2019.
I don't blame Boris particularly for either.
1. The Brexit win was the brainchild of Dom Cummings but what amazes me about this is that over 5 years later, the people obsessing about Brexit aren't my former remainer friends, it's Brexiteers. They go on and on and on and on and on about it. Some of the articles are pure paranoia. It's not just people like HY and Leon on here, it's writers in the Telegraph and Paul Staines on order-order etc.
Although I'm sad about what happened in 2016 I don't spend my life thinking about it. I have a thousand other things that matter more right now and I don't envisage any bandwagon to rejoin: something which again I just find the most bizarre obsession amongst Brexiteers.
I also don't 'blame' Boris. Johnson jumped late onto the andwagon for pure career opportunism. But it was a decision of the British people in a fair vote.
It's almost as if this obsession amongst Brexiteers suggests that they are paranoid? Or mentally unwell. Seriously, and that's not a term I use lightly.
2. 2019. I don't blame Boris for winning in 2019. If I were to blame anyone it would be the Labour Party for electing as a leader a man who was unfit to lead them or to present himself to the country for high office.
But, again, ultimately it was the British people who chose Boris Johnson so how am I supposed to blame Boris?
As for the man himself, many people responded brilliantly with all the flaws in Boris Johnson so there's no need for me to repeat them. He is manifestly unfit for the job in every political and moral sense.
He will take down the tory party if they don't take him down first.
Regarding your comment about those obsessed with Brexit you are spot on. I hadn't considered this before but all my posts on Brexit are in response to Brexiters raising the issue. I don't believe I have ever made a post on the subject since the 2019 election otherwise. Could be wrong.
OK. Let’s check that theory. It’s quite simple to do
Who is the first person to raise the question of Brexit on this brand new thread? Ah yes. A demented Remainer @heatherner in a 12 paragraph comment which is all about Brexit where he moans that it is only Brexiteers that are obsessed with Brexit
lol
Not very scientific Leon :
a) sample of 1
b) refers to a thread full of it contradicting suggestion
c) Exaggeration - 10 paras
d) Doesn't answer example I have given (admittedly also a sample of 1)
Because it’s 3pm here and my day’s work is done and it’s actually too hot to do anything but lie inert in the pool I went and checked the last 5 threads to see who first mentions the Brexit word on each one
Yes yes. Peak Nerdery
It’s an interesting exercise. In three of the threads it is definite Remainers. @IanB2@TimS and @Heathener
@MISTY who is so new to the site it is hard to say, but I’d guess perhaps Leave, but I don’t wish to presume
So the theory that it’s brexiteers who keep bringing it up unprompted is provably and empirically wrong. Which is quite a satisfying waste of my time
Time wasted well. An early glimpse of retirement for you my friend. ;-)
I am haunted by the figure of Bill Bryson’s grandfather (IIRC) who became so bored in retirement he used to carefully fill in all the “o”s in books with a pen
Bryson found this inexplicable until he went to Tromso to look for the Northern Lights but had to wait three weeks - with nothing else to do. By the third week he got out his pen…
On the previous thread (apologies Pip) HYUFD claimed that Boris was hated by Remainers because we blame him for Brexit and hated on the Left because he won in 2019.
I don't blame Boris particularly for either.
1. The Brexit win was the brainchild of Dom Cummings but what amazes me about this is that over 5 years later, the people obsessing about Brexit aren't my former remainer friends, it's Brexiteers. They go on and on and on and on and on about it. Some of the articles are pure paranoia. It's not just people like HY and Leon on here, it's writers in the Telegraph and Paul Staines on order-order etc.
Although I'm sad about what happened in 2016 I don't spend my life thinking about it. I have a thousand other things that matter more right now and I don't envisage any bandwagon to rejoin: something which again I just find the most bizarre obsession amongst Brexiteers.
I also don't 'blame' Boris. Johnson jumped late onto the andwagon for pure career opportunism. But it was a decision of the British people in a fair vote.
It's almost as if this obsession amongst Brexiteers suggests that they are paranoid? Or mentally unwell. Seriously, and that's not a term I use lightly.
2. 2019. I don't blame Boris for winning in 2019. If I were to blame anyone it would be the Labour Party for electing as a leader a man who was unfit to lead them or to present himself to the country for high office.
But, again, ultimately it was the British people who chose Boris Johnson so how am I supposed to blame Boris?
As for the man himself, many people responded brilliantly with all the flaws in Boris Johnson so there's no need for me to repeat them. He is manifestly unfit for the job in every political and moral sense.
He will take down the tory party if they don't take him down first.
Regarding your comment about those obsessed with Brexit you are spot on. I hadn't considered this before but all my posts on Brexit are in response to Brexiters raising the issue. I don't believe I have ever made a post on the subject since the 2019 election otherwise. Could be wrong.
OK. Let’s check that theory. It’s quite simple to do
Who is the first person to raise the question of Brexit on this brand new thread? Ah yes. A demented Remainer @heatherner in a 12 paragraph comment which is all about Brexit where he moans that it is only Brexiteers that are obsessed with Brexit
lol
Not very scientific Leon :
a) sample of 1
b) refers to a thread full of it contradicting suggestion
c) Exaggeration - 10 paras
d) Doesn't answer example I have given (admittedly also a sample of 1)
Because it’s 3pm here and my day’s work is done and it’s actually too hot to do anything but lie inert in the pool I went and checked the last 5 threads to see who first mentions the Brexit word on each one
Yes yes. Peak Nerdery
It’s an interesting exercise. In three of the threads it is definite Remainers. @IanB2@TimS and @Heathener
@StuartDickson Incompetence? That's generous of you. As others have pointed out, the miraculous timing of Plod - turning up at the Cabinet Office in his size thirteens just before the Gray report was due to drop and filleting it - is a remarkable coincidence, to put it mildly.
I think this will turn out to be incompetence, rather than a strategically convenient blunder.
The perception that Johnson was saved by police corruption is not positive for anyone. Better to resolve this by a jovial slap on the wrist for all involved, and move on.
Judging by @Cyclefree and others contributions, eradicating police corruption in England is a gargantuan task, requiring an extraordinarily effective central government. That looks profoundly unlikely, even in the long-term.
Periodic incompetence exists in all individuals and organisations, even when corrupt behaviour is totally absent. That is part of the human condition. Until AI takes over…
Thats a good insight @StuartDickson, that others would do well to absorb. Incompetence (periodic or otherwise) is a permanent feature of the human condition. It is a fallacy to believe it can be eradicated.
Agreed. The aim should be threefold:-
- reduce it as much as possible - catch it early so that the problems caused are small rather than big crises - view the mistakes as opportunities to learn and improve
The problem with the police is that they are not really doing any of this and certainly not on the scale or with the intensity and focus required. And so the incompetence gets worse and worse.
Incidentally - and this may surprise you - I don't think the Met's actions yesterday are obviously a result of collusion and corruption - in the absence of evidence of this, which may eventually be forthcoming, of course.
I've been saying from the start that there was a v strong likelihood that the police might want the Gray report to be limited or halted pending their own investigation. It is very likely that their actions result from a mixture of an overreaction to their earlier slowness and incompetence and an excess of prudence, coupled with appalling media management.
See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.
Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
And of course he was such a success as Foreign Secretary, (a lady in an iraqi prison stirs...another he threw under the bus)
Edit : Iranian
Iranian woman, Iranian prison.
British passport holder. What's your point, caller?
So is Ghislaine Maxwell. We are not trying to get her out of an American prison.
A federal Ireland with the North keeping Stormont and its own elections would address a lot of issues and might well be acceptable to a portion of the Unionist population. The Irish Sea border is certainly assisting people in thinking in that direction since that is almost how things stand at the moment.
But will not be for much longer once DUP ministers ban checks on goods going to and from NI and GB which Truss will not oppose
Voting intentions (23rd-26th Jan): Labour – 38% (-40) Undecided – 19% Will not vote – 18% (+10) Green Party – 8% (+7) Liberal Democrats – 4% (+1) SNP – 3% (-1) Conservatives – 2% (-1) Other – 8% (+5)
Golly, so more Muslims in the UK will vote SNP than Con? Hasn't anyone told them that there is definitely no Islamophobia in the Tory party?
If I lived in Southend West I would happily vote Conservative as a personal protest against the murder of MPs. It doesn't affect the outcome. The argument is, nor should it.
Morning all! Storm Mental is here and whilst its not as smash your head off brutal as Arwen its still making a mess. We still haven't had the roof repaired after the last one (was supposed to happen a few weeks ago but Covid knocked everything back) so have already had to go pick up smashed ridge tiles out of the road. And our tree which was damaged by Arwen is still not felled and is swaying a little more than is comfortable.
On the previous thread (apologies Pip) HYUFD claimed that Boris was hated by Remainers because we blame him for Brexit and hated on the Left because he won in 2019.
I don't blame Boris particularly for either.
1. The Brexit win was the brainchild of Dom Cummings but what amazes me about this is that over 5 years later, the people obsessing about Brexit aren't my former remainer friends, it's Brexiteers. They go on and on and on and on and on about it. Some of the articles are pure paranoia. It's not just people like HY and Leon on here, it's writers in the Telegraph and Paul Staines on order-order etc.
Although I'm sad about what happened in 2016 I don't spend my life thinking about it. I have a thousand other things that matter more right now and I don't envisage any bandwagon to rejoin: something which again I just find the most bizarre obsession amongst Brexiteers.
I also don't 'blame' Boris. Johnson jumped late onto the andwagon for pure career opportunism. But it was a decision of the British people in a fair vote.
It's almost as if this obsession amongst Brexiteers suggests that they are paranoid? Or mentally unwell. Seriously, and that's not a term I use lightly.
2. 2019. I don't blame Boris for winning in 2019. If I were to blame anyone it would be the Labour Party for electing as a leader a man who was unfit to lead them or to present himself to the country for high office.
But, again, ultimately it was the British people who chose Boris Johnson so how am I supposed to blame Boris?
As for the man himself, many people responded brilliantly with all the flaws in Boris Johnson so there's no need for me to repeat them. He is manifestly unfit for the job in every political and moral sense.
He will take down the tory party if they don't take him down first.
Regarding your comment about those obsessed with Brexit you are spot on. I hadn't considered this before but all my posts on Brexit are in response to Brexiters raising the issue. I don't believe I have ever made a post on the subject since the 2019 election otherwise. Could be wrong.
OK. Let’s check that theory. It’s quite simple to do
Who is the first person to raise the question of Brexit on this brand new thread? Ah yes. A demented Remainer @heatherner in a 12 paragraph comment which is all about Brexit where he moans that it is only Brexiteers that are obsessed with Brexit
lol
Not very scientific Leon :
a) sample of 1
b) refers to a thread full of it contradicting suggestion
c) Exaggeration - 10 paras
d) Doesn't answer example I have given (admittedly also a sample of 1)
Because it’s 3pm here and my day’s work is done and it’s actually too hot to do anything but lie inert in the pool I went and checked the last 5 threads to see who first mentions the Brexit word on each one
Yes yes. Peak Nerdery
It’s an interesting exercise. In three of the threads it is definite Remainers. @IanB2@TimS and @Heathener
@MISTY who is so new to the site it is hard to say, but I’d guess perhaps Leave, but I don’t wish to presume
So the theory that it’s brexiteers who keep bringing it up unprompted is provably and empirically wrong. Which is quite a satisfying waste of my time
As you know I am a repentant Brexiteer, I'm not out campaigning for rejoin, I just want the border to work.
Some of you are still sat in blissful ignorance of the shitshow that is the GB - EU border but you won't be forever. It gets worse every week and as people start to realise just how expensive everything now is and how we keep getting shortages - and how it isn't like that in Europe - people will start to complain.
For most people who didn;t know what the EU was never mind how trade worked, whatever they thought they was getting paying more for less was not on their list. And they won't be happy. Already a stack of examples of the same item costing lots more on our side vs theirs...
Unfortunately the cost side of things will just be put down to general inflation and not many joe publics will connect the dots. This will be liberally helped by a string of lies from Johnson.
Shortages is another matter. But again at the moment this is obscured by covid and lockdowns across europe etc etc.
Incidentally, my pharmacy couldn't get one of my wife's medicines this week. All the wholesalers out of stock - supply issues.
Voting intentions (23rd-26th Jan): Labour – 38% (-40) Undecided – 19% Will not vote – 18% (+10) Green Party – 8% (+7) Liberal Democrats – 4% (+1) SNP – 3% (-1) Conservatives – 2% (-1) Other – 8% (+5)
On the previous thread (apologies Pip) HYUFD claimed that Boris was hated by Remainers because we blame him for Brexit and hated on the Left because he won in 2019.
I don't blame Boris particularly for either.
1. The Brexit win was the brainchild of Dom Cummings but what amazes me about this is that over 5 years later, the people obsessing about Brexit aren't my former remainer friends, it's Brexiteers. They go on and on and on and on and on about it. Some of the articles are pure paranoia. It's not just people like HY and Leon on here, it's writers in the Telegraph and Paul Staines on order-order etc.
Although I'm sad about what happened in 2016 I don't spend my life thinking about it. I have a thousand other things that matter more right now and I don't envisage any bandwagon to rejoin: something which again I just find the most bizarre obsession amongst Brexiteers.
I also don't 'blame' Boris. Johnson jumped late onto the andwagon for pure career opportunism. But it was a decision of the British people in a fair vote.
It's almost as if this obsession amongst Brexiteers suggests that they are paranoid? Or mentally unwell. Seriously, and that's not a term I use lightly.
2. 2019. I don't blame Boris for winning in 2019. If I were to blame anyone it would be the Labour Party for electing as a leader a man who was unfit to lead them or to present himself to the country for high office.
But, again, ultimately it was the British people who chose Boris Johnson so how am I supposed to blame Boris?
As for the man himself, many people responded brilliantly with all the flaws in Boris Johnson so there's no need for me to repeat them. He is manifestly unfit for the job in every political and moral sense.
He will take down the tory party if they don't take him down first.
Regarding your comment about those obsessed with Brexit you are spot on. I hadn't considered this before but all my posts on Brexit are in response to Brexiters raising the issue. I don't believe I have ever made a post on the subject since the 2019 election otherwise. Could be wrong.
OK. Let’s check that theory. It’s quite simple to do
Who is the first person to raise the question of Brexit on this brand new thread? Ah yes. A demented Remainer @heatherner in a 12 paragraph comment which is all about Brexit where he moans that it is only Brexiteers that are obsessed with Brexit
lol
Not very scientific Leon :
a) sample of 1
b) refers to a thread full of it contradicting suggestion
c) Exaggeration - 10 paras
d) Doesn't answer example I have given (admittedly also a sample of 1)
Because it’s 3pm here and my day’s work is done and it’s actually too hot to do anything but lie inert in the pool I went and checked the last 5 threads to see who first mentions the Brexit word on each one
Yes yes. Peak Nerdery
It’s an interesting exercise. In three of the threads it is definite Remainers. @IanB2@TimS and @Heathener
@MISTY who is so new to the site it is hard to say, but I’d guess perhaps Leave, but I don’t wish to presume
So the theory that it’s brexiteers who keep bringing it up unprompted is provably and empirically wrong. Which is quite a satisfying waste of my time
Which negates absolutely nothing of what I said. Do you not get the irony of you, presumably subconsciously, doing it yourself in this thread on a separate subject. I can understand Remainers being obsessed with it, because they lost. But why are Brexiters so obsessed with it. You bring it up all the time, even when it isn't the subject of the conversation. Your unrelated post today was a solid post in its own right which stood on its own merits. What was the point of the Brexit reference at the begining. It added nothing other than to put people off of a good post.
Voting intentions (23rd-26th Jan): Labour – 38% (-40) Undecided – 19% Will not vote – 18% (+10) Green Party – 8% (+7) Liberal Democrats – 4% (+1) SNP – 3% (-1) Conservatives – 2% (-1) Other – 8% (+5)
Golly, so more Muslims in the UK will vote SNP than Con? Hasn't anyone told them that there is definitely no Islamophobia in the Tory party?
There's 76000 Muslims in Scotland so the subsample here probably amounts to one person (rounded up)
My anger at Cressida Dick and the Met is every bit as strong this morning as it was yesterday, and it has to be said she has filleted a report of profound national importance by her breathtaking incompetence
This must be the moment for the country to attack her directly, and demand the full unredacted report is issued by Sue Gray as a matter of national interest
If Dick and the unions want to protect a few junior civil servants from a FPN, and spend one million plus pounds in the process, then it has to be the catalyst for all of us across the political divide to demand her resignation
This morning media news is hardly featuring the impending release of the report, and the narrative seems to be that Dick's action has saved Boris.
Boris should have had to face the release of the complete report and then accept the consequences and we are all poorer directly because of Cressida Dick
Whilst I agree with every word of this, the issue with the Met is wider than with just the Commissioner. We need to abolish the Met and found the Police Service for London. I'm surprised none of the bigwig politicians have said so yet.
Why would they. They've got their hands full saving Big Dog
They find nearly three times as many voters switching from the Tories to the Greens (11) than to Reform (4).
15% of Conservative 2019 voters say they will now vote Labour, compared to 9% now saying Lib Dem and only 11% saying undecided/would not vote/refused.
In a reversal of what I think of as a normal split, the Tories are way behind with men 43% - 26%, but nearly level with women 37% - 36%.
And, to top it all off, the Scottish subsample will probably have Stuart Dickson agreeing with OGH that looking at Scottish subsamples is a fool's errand...(!)
Looks rubbish given the latest Yougov has 5% of 2019 Tories still going RefUK and just 1% going Green
On the previous thread (apologies Pip) HYUFD claimed that Boris was hated by Remainers because we blame him for Brexit and hated on the Left because he won in 2019.
I don't blame Boris particularly for either.
1. The Brexit win was the brainchild of Dom Cummings but what amazes me about this is that over 5 years later, the people obsessing about Brexit aren't my former remainer friends, it's Brexiteers. They go on and on and on and on and on about it. Some of the articles are pure paranoia. It's not just people like HY and Leon on here, it's writers in the Telegraph and Paul Staines on order-order etc.
Although I'm sad about what happened in 2016 I don't spend my life thinking about it. I have a thousand other things that matter more right now and I don't envisage any bandwagon to rejoin: something which again I just find the most bizarre obsession amongst Brexiteers.
I also don't 'blame' Boris. Johnson jumped late onto the andwagon for pure career opportunism. But it was a decision of the British people in a fair vote.
It's almost as if this obsession amongst Brexiteers suggests that they are paranoid? Or mentally unwell. Seriously, and that's not a term I use lightly.
2. 2019. I don't blame Boris for winning in 2019. If I were to blame anyone it would be the Labour Party for electing as a leader a man who was unfit to lead them or to present himself to the country for high office.
But, again, ultimately it was the British people who chose Boris Johnson so how am I supposed to blame Boris?
As for the man himself, many people responded brilliantly with all the flaws in Boris Johnson so there's no need for me to repeat them. He is manifestly unfit for the job in every political and moral sense.
He will take down the tory party if they don't take him down first.
Regarding your comment about those obsessed with Brexit you are spot on. I hadn't considered this before but all my posts on Brexit are in response to Brexiters raising the issue. I don't believe I have ever made a post on the subject since the 2019 election otherwise. Could be wrong.
OK. Let’s check that theory. It’s quite simple to do
Who is the first person to raise the question of Brexit on this brand new thread? Ah yes. A demented Remainer @heatherner in a 12 paragraph comment which is all about Brexit where he moans that it is only Brexiteers that are obsessed with Brexit
lol
Not very scientific Leon :
a) sample of 1
b) refers to a thread full of it contradicting suggestion
c) Exaggeration - 10 paras
d) Doesn't answer example I have given (admittedly also a sample of 1)
Because it’s 3pm here and my day’s work is done and it’s actually too hot to do anything but lie inert in the pool I went and checked the last 5 threads to see who first mentions the Brexit word on each one
Yes yes. Peak Nerdery
It’s an interesting exercise. In three of the threads it is definite Remainers. @IanB2@TimS and @Heathener
@MISTY who is so new to the site it is hard to say, but I’d guess perhaps Leave, but I don’t wish to presume
So the theory that it’s brexiteers who keep bringing it up unprompted is provably and empirically wrong. Which is quite a satisfying waste of my time
As you know I am a repentant Brexiteer, I'm not out campaigning for rejoin, I just want the border to work.
Some of you are still sat in blissful ignorance of the shitshow that is the GB - EU border but you won't be forever. It gets worse every week and as people start to realise just how expensive everything now is and how we keep getting shortages - and how it isn't like that in Europe - people will start to complain.
For most people who didn;t know what the EU was never mind how trade worked, whatever they thought they was getting paying more for less was not on their list. And they won't be happy. Already a stack of examples of the same item costing lots more on our side vs theirs...
It's about damage limitation now. Problem is there is no market for it. Leavers don't think they voted for damage so there's none to limit. Remainers don't think it's their problem because they voted against.
SO we're stuck in an endless loop. Brexit is very definitely not done.
The paranoia is because of the perception that so many in positions of power/authority were seeking to overturn the democratically expressed views of the voters.
Brexiteers are paranoid the voters will find out they were sold a pup, and extract revenge
I simply do not buy into your constant carping on brexit and your desire for revenge
The country has moved on, and while improvements with our relationship with the EU is desirable, there is no political will to seek to rejoin and the longer we remain outside the EU and develop other trading relationships the less likely rejoining becomes
I really hope you can in time work to persuade us to develop a better relationship with the EU without the inflammatory self defeating language you tend to us
Both extremes are daft. But the country can't move on as we're now realising with a broken border model. And fixing it doesn't involve rejoining the EU.
As always the problem is that "Brexit" means different things to different people. It will always be an issue because its impossible to make supporters of Brexit happy - did they mean Singapore Brexit or Mercantile Brexit or Workers Collective Brexit?
But for all that a more sensible border model is in our interests, and I'd vote for it in a heartbeat, it's not going to happen.
Partly because, in the short term, it would be the opposite of Taking Back Control. But mostly because one of the paranoias is that, in the decades to come, future voters will do the political equivalent of taking an unwanted present back to the shops to exchange for a gift voucher. Hence the scrabbling round for something, anything, that will make that too difficult to contemplate. The voters of 2016 must have their Place In The History Books, and not as a comic aside, either.
The UK has got itself into a form of zugzwang where every answer to the question "how does the UK relate to the other countries of Europe?" is unpopular, unworkable or both. It would be grimly amusing if it were a satirical novel, or a report from abroad. Unfortunately, it's my country and I'm living in it.
Voting intentions (23rd-26th Jan): Labour – 38% (-40) Undecided – 19% Will not vote – 18% (+10) Green Party – 8% (+7) Liberal Democrats – 4% (+1) SNP – 3% (-1) Conservatives – 2% (-1) Other – 8% (+5)
Hasn't anyone told them that there is definitely no Islamophobia in the Tory party?
On the previous thread (apologies Pip) HYUFD claimed that Boris was hated by Remainers because we blame him for Brexit and hated on the Left because he won in 2019.
I don't blame Boris particularly for either.
1. The Brexit win was the brainchild of Dom Cummings but what amazes me about this is that over 5 years later, the people obsessing about Brexit aren't my former remainer friends, it's Brexiteers. They go on and on and on and on and on about it. Some of the articles are pure paranoia. It's not just people like HY and Leon on here, it's writers in the Telegraph and Paul Staines on order-order etc.
Although I'm sad about what happened in 2016 I don't spend my life thinking about it. I have a thousand other things that matter more right now and I don't envisage any bandwagon to rejoin: something which again I just find the most bizarre obsession amongst Brexiteers.
I also don't 'blame' Boris. Johnson jumped late onto the andwagon for pure career opportunism. But it was a decision of the British people in a fair vote.
It's almost as if this obsession amongst Brexiteers suggests that they are paranoid? Or mentally unwell. Seriously, and that's not a term I use lightly.
2. 2019. I don't blame Boris for winning in 2019. If I were to blame anyone it would be the Labour Party for electing as a leader a man who was unfit to lead them or to present himself to the country for high office.
But, again, ultimately it was the British people who chose Boris Johnson so how am I supposed to blame Boris?
As for the man himself, many people responded brilliantly with all the flaws in Boris Johnson so there's no need for me to repeat them. He is manifestly unfit for the job in every political and moral sense.
He will take down the tory party if they don't take him down first.
Regarding your comment about those obsessed with Brexit you are spot on. I hadn't considered this before but all my posts on Brexit are in response to Brexiters raising the issue. I don't believe I have ever made a post on the subject since the 2019 election otherwise. Could be wrong.
OK. Let’s check that theory. It’s quite simple to do
Who is the first person to raise the question of Brexit on this brand new thread? Ah yes. A demented Remainer @heatherner in a 12 paragraph comment which is all about Brexit where he moans that it is only Brexiteers that are obsessed with Brexit
lol
Not very scientific Leon :
a) sample of 1
b) refers to a thread full of it contradicting suggestion
c) Exaggeration - 10 paras
d) Doesn't answer example I have given (admittedly also a sample of 1)
Because it’s 3pm here and my day’s work is done and it’s actually too hot to do anything but lie inert in the pool I went and checked the last 5 threads to see who first mentions the Brexit word on each one
Yes yes. Peak Nerdery
It’s an interesting exercise. In three of the threads it is definite Remainers. @IanB2@TimS and @Heathener
@MISTY who is so new to the site it is hard to say, but I’d guess perhaps Leave, but I don’t wish to presume
So the theory that it’s brexiteers who keep bringing it up unprompted is provably and empirically wrong. Which is quite a satisfying waste of my time
Time wasted well. An early glimpse of retirement for you my friend. ;-)
I am haunted by the figure of Bill Bryson’s grandfather (IIRC) who became so bored in retirement he used to carefully fill in all the “o”s in books with a pen
Bryson found this inexplicable until he went to Tromso to look for the Northern Lights but had to wait three weeks - with nothing else to do. By the third week he got out his pen…
Bored in retirement. Don't understand the idea.
After almost 20 years of retirement I wonder why I wasted so much time at work, when there are so many interesting other things to do! And I had a job where every day was different, at least in detail!
Of course, reading and sometimes commenting on Pb is included in the 'interesting'!
If I lived in Southend West I would happily vote Conservative as a personal protest against the murder of MPs. It doesn't affect the outcome. The argument is, nor should it.
Are you *differentially* opposed to the murder of mps, and confident of getting through to the right audience?
Voting intentions (23rd-26th Jan): Labour – 38% (-40) Undecided – 19% Will not vote – 18% (+10) Green Party – 8% (+7) Liberal Democrats – 4% (+1) SNP – 3% (-1) Conservatives – 2% (-1) Other – 8% (+5)
Golly, so more Muslims in the UK will vote SNP than Con? Hasn't anyone told them that there is definitely no Islamophobia in the Tory party?
Muslims were the most solid religious voting block for Corbyn Labour in 2017 and 2019, even more than atheists. 85% of Muslims in 2017 voted Labour for example compared to 47% of atheists.
Most Christians voted Conservative as did most Jews. Catholics narrowly voted for Corbyn over May but for Boris over Corbyn, Boris being a Roman Catholic of course unlike Anglican May. Protestants voted Tory in both 2017 and 2019
A federal Ireland with the North keeping Stormont and its own elections would address a lot of issues and might well be acceptable to a portion of the Unionist population. The Irish Sea border is certainly assisting people in thinking in that direction since that is almost how things stand at the moment.
Yes, very interesting to read. What is the point in NI's membership of the UK when the UK government has separated from it against its will? I need to apply for an export license and fill in paperwork to ship products to Ballymena. What kind of "union" is that?
A federal Ireland with the North keeping Stormont and its own elections would address a lot of issues and might well be acceptable to a portion of the Unionist population. The Irish Sea border is certainly assisting people in thinking in that direction since that is almost how things stand at the moment.
But will not be for much longer once DUP ministers ban checks on goods going to and from NI and GB which Truss will not oppose
You truly are a fool They have no power to do such a thing. If they did have they would already have done so. The operation of the NI side of the GB NI hard border is with the NI Office, not the devolved administration.
See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.
Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
And of course he was such a success as Foreign Secretary, (a lady in an iraqi prison stirs...another he threw under the bus)
Edit : Iranian
Iranian woman, Iranian prison.
British passport holder. What's your point, caller?
So is Ghislaine Maxwell. We are not trying to get her out of an American prison.
So are you suggesting that Nasrani was rightfully convicted?
See Boris is off playing the statesman in Eastern Europe to save his skin. It’s so transparently cynical and pathetic you almost have to give him some credit.
Because maybe trying to avoid World War III with Putin, is a somewhat more important use of his time right now than arguing about his wife bringing a birthday cake to the office two years ago?
And of course he was such a success as Foreign Secretary, (a lady in an iraqi prison stirs...another he threw under the bus)
Edit : Iranian
Iranian woman, Iranian prison.
British passport holder. What's your point, caller?
So is Ghislaine Maxwell. We are not trying to get her out of an American prison.
So are you suggesting that Nasrani was rightfully convicted?
Comments
It is like a comedy script...
The other bits are also right.
For as we know referendums are unpredictable. If Starmer becomes PM and needs SNP confidence and supply he would allow indyref2. This Tory government however as long as it is in power never will
1. She has uncovered some serious shit that the police really need to dig into with a clear slate. Like Perverting the Course of Justice
2. Its a cover-up. Doesn't look good for the system to have the PM and civil service breaking the rules on such a grand scale, so go all in and have a compliant Met bury it.
Still not sure which it is. Would be good news for Boris and his off-shore fan club if it wasn't for this simple truth: there is more to come. Boris is not an honest politician, not a competent politician and is almost certain to have done a lot more than we already know. And thats not just parties, its the flat refurb, PPE contracts, the whole smash.
So the "he'll get away with this and people will move on" hope is built on this being the lot. Such hopes have been expressed before. And every time more pain is leaked to the press...
Now having made such a monumental blunder, someone with a shred of decency would have moved Heaven and earth to get her out, just to right his part of the wrong.
This country is broken in so many ways. Structural inequality, corruption which is more subtle and deeper-rooted than in other corrupt countries, a broken democracy, a broken border and a deep pit of cynicism which will drive more and more people away from voting at all.
If you think that is all good news because your party is in government now, you truly are an epic fool. All governments fall. And when this one does we get to appreciate the damage it has done and wonder if it can ever be repaired.
An interesting bit of kremlinology in the Guardian today:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/28/sunak-v-truss-how-pm-boris-johnson-rivals-tackled-another-tough-week
The personnel hasn’t changed. There will remain suspicion as a result.
Otherwise the whole status of NI would have been resolved already.
a) sample of 1
b) refers to a thread full of it contradicting suggestion
c) Exaggeration - 10 paras
d) Doesn't answer example I have given (admittedly also a sample of 1)
My anger at Cressida Dick and the Met is every bit as strong this morning as it was yesterday, and it has to be said she has filleted a report of profound national importance by her breathtaking incompetence
This must be the moment for the country to attack her directly, and demand the full unredacted report is issued by Sue Gray as a matter of national interest
If Dick and the unions want to protect a few junior civil servants from a FPN, and spend one million plus pounds in the process, then it has to be the catalyst for all of us across the political divide to demand her resignation
This morning media news is hardly featuring the impending release of the report, and the narrative seems to be that Dick's action has saved Boris.
Boris should have had to face the release of the complete report and then accept the consequences and we are all poorer directly because of Cressida Dick
It is patently obvious what happened. He was given a briefing note which said A is doing X, but we must say she is doing Y, and couldnt be arsed to read beyond X. To say this made no difference, even if it is true, is like excusing an incompetent surgeon because the patient would probably have died anyway.
That said, the resignation of either of them, could be what kick-starts the contest in the first place.
I doubt he's been that surprised by the response. He might gain some domestic support through this, and has obviously made a bit of a splash in Belarus. I don't know if there are any Ukrainian pro-Russian movements that might also get some oxygen? A general disincentive to any others who might be contemplating straying from the Russian embrace too?
Quite possibly though he was just seeing if the West made a major blunder and caved, and then his troops could have happily strolled in.
I just hope that the crisis has evolved as far as it's going to now though.
Nevertheless the West really ought to accept that Russia is a rather frightened mid-range economy increasingly surrounded by countries it does not like because they are on the whole liberal, democratic and successful. If it didn't have nukes there would be little reason to worry about it. It's unlikely to use them of course but nobody wants to play dare.
So what does it want? I suspect its deeply unpopular President simply wants to carry on as before, robbing the populace blind and buttressing his position with cronies. Occasional shows of strength help to distract from the ineptitude of the administartion and the country's continuing decline in importance on the world stage.
For some reason I started thinking about Boris and the UK at this point but I'd better stop there. Work to do.
Laters.
As far as the birthday party is concerned it will be described as a massive error of judgment by the Cabinet, collectively, in welcoming Mrs J (was she then..... can't remember) and especially the interior designer. Giving a cake is understandable, if misguided, and the two visitors should have immediately left.
However, the interior designer raises another couple of questions. What was she doing in the place at all, at the time? Even if she's a friend of Mrs J!
The Garden Party will also be a massive error by both whoever organised it and by the PM. His duty, if he's telling the truth*, was to say something like "back to desks or out!", turn round and walk back to his room.
The same applies to all the other staff drinks do's. In both cases, whoever organised them is due a large fine, and all the attenders smaller ones.
In summary the 'activities' will be described as gross errors by people who should have known better, coupled with a catastrophic failure of leadership by the top Civil Servant, and a blind eye by the PM.
*I know, I know.
Hat. Coat.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/29/russians-unmoved-by-threat-of-ukraine-conflict
Could Putin's antics just be sabre-rattling?
Johnson has gone way past inviting political disagreement, to moral disgust, and defending him in these kind of terms looks pretty borderline too.
Snap!
Canzini, a Lynton Crosby ally + former Tory exec, lined up for senior political adviser
Romeo, Justice perm sec, may become top civil servant in No10
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/01/28/boris-johnson-lines-sir-lynton-crosby-hard-man-high-flying-civil/
1. "Should the United Kingdom Remain a Member of the European Union or Leave the European Union". We left. Brexit is over. Done. What we do *after* we leave is not Brexit and was not bound or directed by the referendum.
2. We had a referendum in the 2015 parliament which didn't bind that parliament. We then had a general election in 2017 and elected a new parliament. No parliament is bound by its successors - literally the "sovereignty" that so many parroted when asked why Brexit?
The paranoids are really going to hate what happens next. After a few years of delays we have part-implemented a new Border Operating Model that doesn't work. As traffic levels increase and we implement the rest of it in April and July it will become painfully obvious even to the least observant that the BOP adopted doesn't work. We will need to change it. Loosen it. Drop much of the checks and red tape. "BETRAYAL" will shriek the paranoids.
An internal political upheaval in Kiev as an excuse for a peaceful intervention might have been the Putin game plan but that was either uncovered or never got the traction within Ukraine.
We can offer talks - which we have - about mutual disarmament or coordination. But that’s a meaningless fig leave and everyone knows it.
His demands were extreme - he was trying to anchor the discussion in the way Trump used to - but he wasn’t expecting them to be rejected in toto.
So the options for him are:
1) back off with a fig leaf which severely weakens his position in Russia
2) stir up unrest in Donetsk and hope that the West won’t get involved. I think that he has been too overt to get away with this now. Outcome is a slapping for Russia and, probably, reincorporation of Eastern Ukraine into the country with appropriate political guarantees. Painful for Putin
3) More serious military activity involving Russia directly. I think the West becomes fully supportive of Ukraine here, even if not with official boots on the ground. Russia loses and the cost is Crimea. Possibly fatal for Putin
He has no good options. But it’s important that the West stands firm. Otherwise he’ll just try again later
I doubt the Russians have overlooked this point. I believe that their direct territorial ambitions are limited to specific areas of strategic value. Their wider goal is to have a sphere of political influence which ultimately includes the whole continent of Europe, of which the ancient Russian nation would be placed at the centre. Such a system could be achieved without war and within a relatively short timeframe, but could potentially represent the end of western liberal civilisation as we know it.
On this analysis, ongoing military activities can be seen in context. The 'invasion of Ukraine' is not necessarily the emergence of encroaching, Hitler like monster. It is more likely part of a strategy to test of the resolve of the western alliance, fracturing its component parts as it tries to 'contain' the threat, with the long term goal being submission of the type I have described above.
The country has moved on, and while improvements with our relationship with the EU is desirable, there is no political will to seek to rejoin and the longer we remain outside the EU and develop other trading relationships the less likely rejoining becomes
I really hope you can in time work to persuade us to develop a better relationship with the EU without the inflammatory self defeating language you tend to us
"For Tories wishing to dump Boris: Gray suits."
Yes yes. Peak Nerdery
It’s an interesting exercise. In three of the threads it is definite Remainers. @IanB2 @TimS and @Heathener
The other two are
@bigjohnowls whose Brexit vote is a mystery to me
And
@MISTY who is so new to the site it is hard to say, but I’d guess perhaps Leave, but I don’t wish to presume
So the theory that it’s brexiteers who keep bringing it up unprompted is provably and empirically wrong. Which is quite a satisfying waste of my time
Putin certainly wants the old USSR and Eastern Europe back in his orbit. The West he can undermine by promoting far right and populist candidates
A federal Ireland with the North keeping Stormont and its own elections would address a lot of issues and might well be acceptable to a portion of the Unionist population. The Irish Sea border is certainly assisting people in thinking in that direction since that is almost how things stand at the moment.
I keep telling myself that surely there must be a good reason why Dick has behaved like this and that in the fullness of time all will be revealed e.g. now looking into something more serious.
I am not persuading myself very well to be honest. It looks on face of it as if she has directly intervened to save a PM from falling which is utterly appalling.
As always the problem is that "Brexit" means different things to different people. It will always be an issue because its impossible to make supporters of Brexit happy - did they mean Singapore Brexit or Mercantile Brexit or Workers Collective Brexit?
https://mobile.twitter.com/MuslimCensus/status/1487094934658293771
POLL FINDINGS Police cars revolving light
@UKLabour at risk of losing 55% of their Muslim vote from the 2019 General Election.
No idea about voodoo status of poll
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-checks-dup-liz-truss-b2002745.html
Some of you are still sat in blissful ignorance of the shitshow that is the GB - EU border but you won't be forever. It gets worse every week and as people start to realise just how expensive everything now is and how we keep getting shortages - and how it isn't like that in Europe - people will start to complain.
For most people who didn;t know what the EU was never mind how trade worked, whatever they thought they was getting paying more for less was not on their list. And they won't be happy. Already a stack of examples of the same item costing lots more on our side vs theirs...
davidallengreen
@davidallengreen
The @metpoliceuk have, of course, an interest in #PartyGate
The parties took place bang in the middle of the most heavily policed area of the UK - Whitehall
And the parties took place while @metpoliceuk
were freely handing out huge fines to those breaking Covid rules elsewhere
https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1487011221207400450
Starmer is though more popular with Jews than Corbyn was, hence Labour will likely win Barnet in May
@MuslimCensus
·
17h
Replying to
@MuslimCensus
Voting intentions (23rd-26th Jan): Labour – 38% (-40) Undecided – 19% Will not vote – 18% (+10) Green Party – 8% (+7) Liberal Democrats – 4% (+1) SNP – 3% (-1) Conservatives – 2% (-1) Other – 8% (+5)
They find nearly three times as many voters switching from the Tories to the Greens (11) than to Reform (4).
15% of Conservative 2019 voters say they will now vote Labour, compared to 9% now saying Lib Dem and only 11% saying undecided/would not vote/refused.
In a reversal of what I think of as a normal split, the Tories are way behind with men 43% - 26%, but nearly level with women 37% - 36%.
And, to top it all off, the Scottish subsample will probably have Stuart Dickson agreeing with OGH that looking at Scottish subsamples is a fool's errand...(!)
I think UKIP might get up to 10% and ne the only party to hold their deposit but I might even be overestimating them.
Bryson found this inexplicable until he went to Tromso to look for the Northern Lights but had to wait three weeks - with nothing else to do. By the third week he got out his pen…
@MISTY referred to the Tories as magpies “stealing Brexit from us” so assume s/he is a former Kipper
- reduce it as much as possible
- catch it early so that the problems caused are small rather than big crises
- view the mistakes as opportunities to learn and improve
The problem with the police is that they are not really doing any of this and certainly not on the scale or with the intensity and focus required. And so the incompetence gets worse and worse.
Incidentally - and this may surprise you - I don't think the Met's actions yesterday are obviously a result of collusion and corruption - in the absence of evidence of this, which may eventually be forthcoming, of course.
I've been saying from the start that there was a v strong likelihood that the police might want the Gray report to be limited or halted pending their own investigation. It is very likely that their actions result from a mixture of an overreaction to their earlier slowness and incompetence and an excess of prudence, coupled with appalling media management.
Shortages is another matter. But again at the moment this is obscured by covid and lockdowns across europe etc etc.
Incidentally, my pharmacy couldn't get one of my wife's medicines this week. All the wholesalers out of stock - supply issues.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/01/28/voting-intention-con-32-lab-38-26-27-jan
SO we're stuck in an endless loop. Brexit is very definitely not done.
Partly because, in the short term, it would be the opposite of Taking Back Control. But mostly because one of the paranoias is that, in the decades to come, future voters will do the political equivalent of taking an unwanted present back to the shops to exchange for a gift voucher. Hence the scrabbling round for something, anything, that will make that too difficult to contemplate. The voters of 2016 must have their Place In The History Books, and not as a comic aside, either.
The UK has got itself into a form of zugzwang where every answer to the question "how does the UK relate to the other countries of Europe?" is unpopular, unworkable or both. It would be grimly amusing if it were a satirical novel, or a report from abroad. Unfortunately, it's my country and I'm living in it.
After almost 20 years of retirement I wonder why I wasted so much time at work, when there are so many interesting other things to do!
And I had a job where every day was different, at least in detail!
Of course, reading and sometimes commenting on Pb is included in the 'interesting'!
Most Christians voted Conservative as did most Jews. Catholics narrowly voted for Corbyn over May but for Boris over Corbyn, Boris being a Roman Catholic of course unlike Anglican May. Protestants voted Tory in both 2017 and 2019
http://www.brin.ac.uk/religious-affiliation-and-party-choice-at-the-2017-general-election/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE8pPW28sOU
Republican majority in Congress, Trump as Speaker and Biden impeached.
Makes a plausible case that Putin WILL invade, en masse, between 10-20th February
https://unherd.com/2022/01/how-russia-could-invade-ukraine/