Who cares? He rescued some dogs. Indeed my non Tory voting sister normally hates Boris but actually agreed with this rescue of Pen Farthing's dogs
I did too. There was never clear evidence that the flight reduced the number of evacuated refugees or that it had put anyone at risk. The hostility was a coalition of people who don't like the Tories and people who think it's soppy to like animals.
Whether the truth is being told by BJ is a separate issue.
Very much mostly the former. This one never passed what I think of as "the opposite test": if the government had done the opposite, the same people would have found a way to complain about that too.
How many times are Tories and Corbyn Tories going to post this poll this evening?
If you dont like Polls reverting to small Labour leads or even Tories retaking the lead i would stay off here for the next month or two Pete
"Any other leader would be 20pts ahead" - Blair
Lionel?
I think he is dead but his corpse has more charisma than SKS
I am no Starmer enthusiast, however compared to what came before he is head and shoulders better. He may well get a caning against Johnson or who may come next. Starmer has not (yet) led his party into the outrageous racist disrepute your boy did, which is a huge feather in his cap.
Did you never worry back in the day about a "real" socialist like Len enjoying the luxury lifestyle with his tied homes and chauffeur driven limousines and more on his Union expense account, spending hard working members' subs?
You mentioned Nellist earlier, and hats off to Nellist for his stand on taking his MPs salary. But Nellist was a blinkered idealogue, he never ever made a difference because he was lost in his Marxist wonderland.
Give me vision fairness and hope everyday.
SKS offers the square route of FA
He does. All labour are offering currently are soundbites and slogans.
Labour seem to be taking the approach that the Tories are rubbish so people will support them.
In the nineties Blair made new labour look like a govt in waiting as a contrast to the Tories. With a couple of exceptions you cannot really say that about SKS labour.
Yes, still some work still to do, and Starmer does seem to recognise this. With each reshuffle the Labour frontbench gets stronger and more plausible, on current trends he will peak at the right time for the GE.
There’s a lot,of,work to do, time is passing quickly, and if they just think the so called red wall are merely sinners who will repent and return I think they are sadly mistaken. They need to listen to these communities instead of telling them what they think they want and taking them for granted as they have historically,voted labour. I always vote labour in general elections. At the moment I am planning not to vote.
Polling of the "Red Wall" says otherwise, and turning Tory voters into non voters is a degree of progress.
I know a number of SAs that have moved to the UK and every single one of them say its because of the incredible high levels of violent crime and not just theoretical on paper numbers, everybody they know in SA have been a victim and often despite living in rich gates areas with private security.
Fwiw, Francis, I was in Hilton, a suburb of PMB generally referred to as 'a white enclave'. It isn't 'gated' though, and I didn't notice any of these. You certainly notice a mix of whites and blacks around generally and you don't feel inclined to cross the road if you see a group of young black males walking towards you.
The only time I froze a bit was when I saw a heavily armed security guard outside a bank, but that was because of a pending delivery and the fact that banks remain a soft target for armed robbers. Apart from that I can't recall seeing anybody but a policeman with a gun. That would not be true in many parts of the 1st World, notably the USA where it is common to see guns in civilian hands.
The malls were generally friendly and warm places to visit. I'm sure I could have found some nastier spots easily enough, but I would have had to go look for them.
I'm not disputing your friends' experiences. I can only report my own honestly and fairly.
The thing is the stats back up my friends experiences as the norm not yours.
My BIL is South African, now working in London. As far as I can tell the reason he and many of his friends left is to make money, rather than to escape from crime. Many of them have hopes to return in later life.
My wife is South African and there's not a chance in hell she'd return nor any of her family. The crime she talks about there is utterly horrific. A world unimaginable to this country.
In the past year two of her friends have been murdered. Separate, unrelated incidents. A third was shot but survived a couple of years ago.
My wife is South African, and she has a very similar experience (including multiple homicides). The rate of violent death there is off the charts.
Who cares? He rescued some dogs. Indeed my non Tory voting sister normally hates Boris but actually agreed with this rescue of Pen Farthing's dogs
I did too. There was never clear evidence that the flight reduced the number of evacuated refugees or that it had put anyone at risk. The hostility was a coalition of people who don't like the Tories and people who think it's soppy to like animals.
Whether the truth is being told by BJ is a separate issue.
Very much mostly the former. This one never passed what I think of as "the opposite test": if the government had done the opposite, the same people would have found a way to complain about that too.
Well, yes. Flying animals into a war zone is horrible.
I'd be very happy to pay for a ticket for our chihuahua.
It had revenue of £50 million. Its operating costs were £40 million. So a surplus.
But - that doesn't include the £24 million bribe advance made to the counties to allow the thing to be held.
So - in reality it made a loss of £14 million.
Ticket sales were 510,000. The last pre-pandemic year of the Vitality Blast had ticket sales of 950,000.
However you look at it, that's a pretty disastrous failure. One more season like that and the ECB will be running out of cash.
Not that it has prevented the ECB swooning over its success or paying themselves millions in undeserved bonuses.
About the only success was in women's cricket, where the double headers meant there was an attendance of 267,000 as against 27,000 in the last year of the Kia Super League.
I know a number of SAs that have moved to the UK and every single one of them say its because of the incredible high levels of violent crime and not just theoretical on paper numbers, everybody they know in SA have been a victim and often despite living in rich gates areas with private security.
Fwiw, Francis, I was in Hilton, a suburb of PMB generally referred to as 'a white enclave'. It isn't 'gated' though, and I didn't notice any of these. You certainly notice a mix of whites and blacks around generally and you don't feel inclined to cross the road if you see a group of young black males walking towards you.
The only time I froze a bit was when I saw a heavily armed security guard outside a bank, but that was because of a pending delivery and the fact that banks remain a soft target for armed robbers. Apart from that I can't recall seeing anybody but a policeman with a gun. That would not be true in many parts of the 1st World, notably the USA where it is common to see guns in civilian hands.
The malls were generally friendly and warm places to visit. I'm sure I could have found some nastier spots easily enough, but I would have had to go look for them.
I'm not disputing your friends' experiences. I can only report my own honestly and fairly.
The thing is the stats back up my friends experiences as the norm not yours.
My BIL is South African, now working in London. As far as I can tell the reason he and many of his friends left is to make money, rather than to escape from crime. Many of them have hopes to return in later life.
My wife is South African and there's not a chance in hell she'd return nor any of her family. The crime she talks about there is utterly horrific. A world unimaginable to this country.
In the past year two of her friends have been murdered. Separate, unrelated incidents. A third was shot but survived a couple of years ago.
My wife is South African, and she has a very similar experience (including multiple homicides). The rate of violent death there is off the charts.
I'm not a pet dog person. They smell for starters, but not so bad as foxes. But working dogs can be powerfully effective, guarding or herding, and providing doting yappy companionship to the old or infirm. I wonder how many heavy thinkers like Einstein, Newton, Hans Bethe, Schopenhauer, etc, had pet dogs. Stop-start thinking can be difficult, or at least I find it so.
Having said all that I think it would have been wonderfully primitive (atavistic?) to have the company of a middle-sized mongrel to accompany me on my long cross country runs. Can such dogs run long distances?
Sounds like you need a border collie. They never get tired, just fitter.
He's a big jessie, he's from Scotland, I can deal with him, I've dealt with ex prisoners before.
I seem to recall when they did up one the town centre pubs in St. Andrews from being very much a locals pub to one that subsequently attracted a posh student crowd that Ferguson and his mates visited one evening very early after the renovation.
There was then quite a bit of further renovation.
I've never heard that story but I wonder if it was the Central? That used to be a proper pub back in the day but got tarted up and became a bit of a yah watering hole IIRC.
Yes, it was the Central. Got done up, iirc, fairly early in my undergrad days. All hearsay on my part, I never saw the event nor the extent of the damage, but I think I remember it closing again for a little bit. Would've been when Dunc was still at Dundee United.
Who cares? He rescued some dogs. Indeed my non Tory voting sister normally hates Boris but actually agreed with this rescue of Pen Farthing's dogs
I did too. There was never clear evidence that the flight reduced the number of evacuated refugees or that it had put anyone at risk. The hostility was a coalition of people who don't like the Tories and people who think it's soppy to like animals.
Whether the truth is being told by BJ is a separate issue.
Yes, and just as the farce of the Johnson regime is reduced to questions over what constitutes a birthday party, the fiasco of the collapse of the NATO backed regime in Afghanistan is reduced to arguments about emails and dogs.
It's as if we cannot bear to look at the real issues.
A couple of moments are just a mite too fanservicey, but given the whole thing was made off the back of nostalgia that was expected and it was surprisingly good.
Who cares? He rescued some dogs. Indeed my non Tory voting sister normally hates Boris but actually agreed with this rescue of Pen Farthing's dogs
I did too. There was never clear evidence that the flight reduced the number of evacuated refugees or that it had put anyone at risk. The hostility was a coalition of people who don't like the Tories and people who think it's soppy to like animals.
Whether the truth is being told by BJ is a separate issue.
Very much mostly the former. This one never passed what I think of as "the opposite test": if the government had done the opposite, the same people would have found a way to complain about that too.
Well, yes. Flying animals into a war zone is horrible.
I'd be very happy to pay for a ticket for our chihuahua.
I'm not a pet dog person. They smell for starters, but not so bad as foxes. But working dogs can be powerfully effective, guarding or herding, and providing doting yappy companionship to the old or infirm. I wonder how many heavy thinkers like Einstein, Newton, Hans Bethe, Schopenhauer, etc, had pet dogs. Stop-start thinking can be difficult, or at least I find it so.
Having said all that I think it would have been wonderfully primitive (atavistic?) to have the company of a middle-sized mongrel to accompany me on my long cross country runs. Can such dogs run long distances?
Some dogs are quite happy to do so. Primitive hounds like mine don't like to be far from their owner, being pack animals. Terriers are more willful, scent hounds more distractable, some breeds lack the nessecary endurance etc.
Wonder if a border collie or b. c. crossbreed would do?
Who cares? He rescued some dogs. Indeed my non Tory voting sister normally hates Boris but actually agreed with this rescue of Pen Farthing's dogs
I did too. There was never clear evidence that the flight reduced the number of evacuated refugees or that it had put anyone at risk. The hostility was a coalition of people who don't like the Tories and people who think it's soppy to like animals.
Whether the truth is being told by BJ is a separate issue.
Very much mostly the former. This one never passed what I think of as "the opposite test": if the government had done the opposite, the same people would have found a way to complain about that too.
Well, yes. Flying animals into a war zone is horrible.
I'd be very happy to pay for a ticket for our chihuahua.
I’d gladly do likewise for any neighbourhood cat that shits on my lawn.
I know a number of SAs that have moved to the UK and every single one of them say its because of the incredible high levels of violent crime and not just theoretical on paper numbers, everybody they know in SA have been a victim and often despite living in rich gates areas with private security.
Fwiw, Francis, I was in Hilton, a suburb of PMB generally referred to as 'a white enclave'. It isn't 'gated' though, and I didn't notice any of these. You certainly notice a mix of whites and blacks around generally and you don't feel inclined to cross the road if you see a group of young black males walking towards you.
The only time I froze a bit was when I saw a heavily armed security guard outside a bank, but that was because of a pending delivery and the fact that banks remain a soft target for armed robbers. Apart from that I can't recall seeing anybody but a policeman with a gun. That would not be true in many parts of the 1st World, notably the USA where it is common to see guns in civilian hands.
The malls were generally friendly and warm places to visit. I'm sure I could have found some nastier spots easily enough, but I would have had to go look for them.
I'm not disputing your friends' experiences. I can only report my own honestly and fairly.
The thing is the stats back up my friends experiences as the norm not yours.
My BIL is South African, now working in London. As far as I can tell the reason he and many of his friends left is to make money, rather than to escape from crime. Many of them have hopes to return in later life.
My wife is South African and there's not a chance in hell she'd return nor any of her family. The crime she talks about there is utterly horrific. A world unimaginable to this country.
In the past year two of her friends have been murdered. Separate, unrelated incidents. A third was shot but survived a couple of years ago.
My wife is South African, and she has a very similar experience (including multiple homicides). The rate of violent death there is off the charts.
Does she get down to South Los Angeles much?
You mean Orange County?
Possibly. I was thinking of Chesterfield Sq and east of Inglewood generally.
I'm not a pet dog person. They smell for starters, but not so bad as foxes. But working dogs can be powerfully effective, guarding or herding, and providing doting yappy companionship to the old or infirm. I wonder how many heavy thinkers like Einstein, Newton, Hans Bethe, Schopenhauer, etc, had pet dogs. Stop-start thinking can be difficult, or at least I find it so.
Having said all that I think it would have been wonderfully primitive (atavistic?) to have the company of a middle-sized mongrel to accompany me on my long cross country runs. Can such dogs run long distances?
Some dogs are quite happy to do so. Primitive hounds like mine don't like to be far from their owner, being pack animals. Terriers are more willful, scent hounds more distractable, some breeds lack the nessecary endurance etc.
Wonder if a border collie or b. c. crossbreed would do?
Collie for sure. My sisters one will happily do 50 miles (she took him on a marathon, he went back and forward the whole time. 50 is a rough guess). Apparently still keen to go out later that day too. On the other hand our Spanish podenco looks the part but has actively contributed to my running worsening as she is slow and more keen on sniffs than miles.
Who cares? He rescued some dogs. Indeed my non Tory voting sister normally hates Boris but actually agreed with this rescue of Pen Farthing's dogs
I did too. There was never clear evidence that the flight reduced the number of evacuated refugees or that it had put anyone at risk. The hostility was a coalition of people who don't like the Tories and people who think it's soppy to like animals.
Whether the truth is being told by BJ is a separate issue.
Very much mostly the former. This one never passed what I think of as "the opposite test": if the government had done the opposite, the same people would have found a way to complain about that too.
Well, yes. Flying animals into a war zone is horrible.
I'd be very happy to pay for a ticket for our chihuahua.
I’d gladly do likewise for any neighbourhood cat that shits on my lawn.
I'm not a pet dog person. They smell for starters, but not so bad as foxes. But working dogs can be powerfully effective, guarding or herding, and providing doting yappy companionship to the old or infirm. I wonder how many heavy thinkers like Einstein, Newton, Hans Bethe, Schopenhauer, etc, had pet dogs. Stop-start thinking can be difficult, or at least I find it so.
Having said all that I think it would have been wonderfully primitive (atavistic?) to have the company of a middle-sized mongrel to accompany me on my long cross country runs. Can such dogs run long distances?
Some dogs are quite happy to do so. Primitive hounds like mine don't like to be far from their owner, being pack animals. Terriers are more willful, scent hounds more distractable, some breeds lack the nessecary endurance etc.
Wonder if a border collie or b. c. crossbreed would do?
Ours is a BC mix and I strongly recommend one. They are not quite as obsessive as pure BCs and have a generally calmer and more compliant nature.
They are smart though, so you have to be a bit careful. Mine often posts on PB in my absence.
I'm not a pet dog person. They smell for starters, but not so bad as foxes. But working dogs can be powerfully effective, guarding or herding, and providing doting yappy companionship to the old or infirm. I wonder how many heavy thinkers like Einstein, Newton, Hans Bethe, Schopenhauer, etc, had pet dogs. Stop-start thinking can be difficult, or at least I find it so.
Having said all that I think it would have been wonderfully primitive (atavistic?) to have the company of a middle-sized mongrel to accompany me on my long cross country runs. Can such dogs run long distances?
Some dogs are quite happy to do so. Primitive hounds like mine don't like to be far from their owner, being pack animals. Terriers are more willful, scent hounds more distractable, some breeds lack the nessecary endurance etc.
Wonder if a border collie or b. c. crossbreed would do?
Ours is a BC mix and I strongly recommend one. They are not quite as obsessive as pure BCs and have a generally calmer and more compliant nature.
They are smart though, so you have to be a bit careful. Mine often posts on PB in my absence.
Yep, pure BCs can have very strong characters. They'll be ordering their favourite food when you aren't looking. Friend's mutt was a BC/lurcher cross - very pleasant combination actually.
I'm not a pet dog person. They smell for starters, but not so bad as foxes. But working dogs can be powerfully effective, guarding or herding, and providing doting yappy companionship to the old or infirm. I wonder how many heavy thinkers like Einstein, Newton, Hans Bethe, Schopenhauer, etc, had pet dogs. Stop-start thinking can be difficult, or at least I find it so.
Having said all that I think it would have been wonderfully primitive (atavistic?) to have the company of a middle-sized mongrel to accompany me on my long cross country runs. Can such dogs run long distances?
Some dogs are quite happy to do so. Primitive hounds like mine don't like to be far from their owner, being pack animals. Terriers are more willful, scent hounds more distractable, some breeds lack the nessecary endurance etc.
Wonder if a border collie or b. c. crossbreed would do?
Ours is a BC mix and I strongly recommend one. They are not quite as obsessive as pure BCs and have a generally calmer and more compliant nature.
They are smart though, so you have to be a bit careful. Mine often posts on PB in my absence.
My owner's English pointer is forever posting on here!
I'm not a pet dog person. They smell for starters, but not so bad as foxes. But working dogs can be powerfully effective, guarding or herding, and providing doting yappy companionship to the old or infirm. I wonder how many heavy thinkers like Einstein, Newton, Hans Bethe, Schopenhauer, etc, had pet dogs. Stop-start thinking can be difficult, or at least I find it so.
Einstein was a sailor and spent many hours on his sailboat. Probably a relaxing place for quiet contemplation
Who cares? He rescued some dogs. Indeed my non Tory voting sister normally hates Boris but actually agreed with this rescue of Pen Farthing's dogs
I did too. There was never clear evidence that the flight reduced the number of evacuated refugees or that it had put anyone at risk. The hostility was a coalition of people who don't like the Tories and people who think it's soppy to like animals.
Whether the truth is being told by BJ is a separate issue.
Yes, and just as the farce of the Johnson regime is reduced to questions over what constitutes a birthday party, the fiasco of the collapse of the NATO backed regime in Afghanistan is reduced to arguments about emails and dogs.
It's as if we cannot bear to look at the real issues.
Sanctions. Rather than why there are so many without the skills, sobriety, health or self-confidence to hold down a job.
I know a number of SAs that have moved to the UK and every single one of them say its because of the incredible high levels of violent crime and not just theoretical on paper numbers, everybody they know in SA have been a victim and often despite living in rich gates areas with private security.
Fwiw, Francis, I was in Hilton, a suburb of PMB generally referred to as 'a white enclave'. It isn't 'gated' though, and I didn't notice any of these. You certainly notice a mix of whites and blacks around generally and you don't feel inclined to cross the road if you see a group of young black males walking towards you.
The only time I froze a bit was when I saw a heavily armed security guard outside a bank, but that was because of a pending delivery and the fact that banks remain a soft target for armed robbers. Apart from that I can't recall seeing anybody but a policeman with a gun. That would not be true in many parts of the 1st World, notably the USA where it is common to see guns in civilian hands.
The malls were generally friendly and warm places to visit. I'm sure I could have found some nastier spots easily enough, but I would have had to go look for them.
I'm not disputing your friends' experiences. I can only report my own honestly and fairly.
The thing is the stats back up my friends experiences as the norm not yours.
My BIL is South African, now working in London. As far as I can tell the reason he and many of his friends left is to make money, rather than to escape from crime. Many of them have hopes to return in later life.
My wife is South African and there's not a chance in hell she'd return nor any of her family. The crime she talks about there is utterly horrific. A world unimaginable to this country.
In the past year two of her friends have been murdered. Separate, unrelated incidents. A third was shot but survived a couple of years ago.
My wife is South African, and she has a very similar experience (including multiple homicides). The rate of violent death there is off the charts.
Your wife has experienced multiple homicides?
I am assuming that unless you married either a zombie or psychopath, a fairly significant section on 'among friends and family' was missing.
Of course not. It was a biscuit for tax purposes...
That's a hole they don't want to go down, given the years of legal wrangling to determine what was cake or biscuit. If one slice remains, and can be shown to be cake, that woule be a lie that brings them down, Capone style.
I know a number of SAs that have moved to the UK and every single one of them say its because of the incredible high levels of violent crime and not just theoretical on paper numbers, everybody they know in SA have been a victim and often despite living in rich gates areas with private security.
Fwiw, Francis, I was in Hilton, a suburb of PMB generally referred to as 'a white enclave'. It isn't 'gated' though, and I didn't notice any of these. You certainly notice a mix of whites and blacks around generally and you don't feel inclined to cross the road if you see a group of young black males walking towards you.
The only time I froze a bit was when I saw a heavily armed security guard outside a bank, but that was because of a pending delivery and the fact that banks remain a soft target for armed robbers. Apart from that I can't recall seeing anybody but a policeman with a gun. That would not be true in many parts of the 1st World, notably the USA where it is common to see guns in civilian hands.
The malls were generally friendly and warm places to visit. I'm sure I could have found some nastier spots easily enough, but I would have had to go look for them.
I'm not disputing your friends' experiences. I can only report my own honestly and fairly.
The thing is the stats back up my friends experiences as the norm not yours.
My BIL is South African, now working in London. As far as I can tell the reason he and many of his friends left is to make money, rather than to escape from crime. Many of them have hopes to return in later life.
My wife is South African and there's not a chance in hell she'd return nor any of her family. The crime she talks about there is utterly horrific. A world unimaginable to this country.
In the past year two of her friends have been murdered. Separate, unrelated incidents. A third was shot but survived a couple of years ago.
My wife is South African, and she has a very similar experience (including multiple homicides). The rate of violent death there is off the charts.
Your wife has experienced multiple homicides?
I am assuming that unless you married either a zombie or psychopath, a fairly significant section on 'among friends and family' was missing.
More lives than Boris Johnson....
Antifreeze apparently would do it
I read that as "Antifrank"...
Whatever happened to him?
Posted simultaneously with Frank. Both vanished in a puff of pixels.
Wasting yet more time doing yet more fucking customs forms this time to export products which are zero tariff zero quota zero VAT from one place to another to declare that its the same fucking standards on one side of the border as it is on the other.
Seriously, this is why the Border Operating Model doesn't work and why we're completely gumming up our border so that everything takes an eternity to get through. Pointless red tape to declare that no tariff is payable, that no vat is payable, that no standards are different because our standards are their standards are our fucking standards. What is the point in all this?
Before some arse says "but you voted for this", no I didn't. "This" is the Boris Brexit deal. Where after decades of cutting red tape cost and petty bureaucracy the Tory party decided to fuck all that off and impose as much as possible. Not because we actually have diverged and there is anything to check. But because we might want to do so at some point in the future.
Madness. And still prannocks say "but this is much better for the country than we had before". Is it fuck.
This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.
And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.
So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.
And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.
So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
If either May or Boris had gone for full EEA and full free movement then no way would the Tories have won a majority in 2019 and Brexit would not have got done as Farage's Brexit Party would have got about 15-20% of the vote. The Leave vote would thus still have been split rather than united as it was in December 2019 behind Boris' Brexit Deal
I know how much you love quoting polls as if they are the only thing in the world that matters so here is one that I quoted in a PB thread header the day after Leave won the referendum.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit with 45% opposing. I would contend that this would indicate that overall there would be a clear majority of the country that would choose EFTA/EEA over complete separation from the Single Market."
The Government governs for the whole country not just those who won one particular side of a vote. It was incumbent upon them to seek a compromise, especially given that it was likely a majority of the electorate would have been happy with a soft Brexit. That we didn't do that was entirely due to a PM who did not understand Brexit and thought it was all about keeping the 'furrners' out followed by a PM who would have trouble finding the fluff in his belly button without a map and instructions.
So most Leave voters opposed EEA/EFTA, compared to the vast majority of Leave voters who voted for Boris' Deal in 2019.
Thanks for confirming I was absolutely right and Remain would have won in 2016 if the alternative was just Leave to EEA and keep free movement as most Leavers would not have bothered to turn out to vote Leave for just EEA
Nope you are not right and that is not what the figures showed. Given that almost half of Leave voters wanted to remain in the EEA and, given that we were leaving, a large majority of Remain voters would have wanted to minimise the damage as they saw it, then there would have been - and I contend still will be - a clear majority in favour of EFTA/EEA membership. I have the figures behind me. You have nothing but your rather singular views.
99% of Remain voters would still have voted Remain over Leave to EEA in the 2016 referendum. However plenty of working class Leave voters in the North and Midlands would have stayed home if Leave promised to keep free movement still and stay in the EEA.
So Remain would have won the referendum with about 60% of the vote and we would still be in the EU and no compromise would have been needed as there would have been no Brexit.
You won on the back of immigration control promises, EEA alone was never going to get you over 50% given we were outside the Eurozone in the EU anyway
We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely
A Starmer government may well do a version of that, especially if reliant on LD confidence and supply. Though given he needs the redwall seats I doubt he would agree to full free movement again. In a generation or two even the Tories might accept that to get back to power.
However the Tories now will not touch it with a bargepole given the threat of leakage to Farage and Tice. Plus Boris' current deal still has immigration just using a points system not free movement and trade deals with the EU and beyond anyway
Sorry I just realised I made a mistake. I was actually quoting you.
That full post should have been:
In June 2016 in response to my thread on joining the EEA HYUFD said:
"No, just realpolitik. We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely"
You were the one agreeing with me and advocating EFTA after the referendum.
What happened to you?
I had just voted Remain and Cameron was still Tory leader and PM (May did not even become PM until July 2016).
Most Remainers at that time would have accepted EEA as the closest alternative to Remain on offer. However they still would have voted for Remain over EEA in the Referendum if that was the main basis of the Leave campaign.
However over 5 years later, I am quite happy with the Boris Deal which respects the Leave vote in full, including ending free movement and replacing it with a points system and allowing us to do our own trade deals while still having a trade deal with the EU. I would have opposed No Deal Brexit yes but I actually think the Boris Deal is in many respects better than EEA
And yet you persist in your claim that there was no support for EFTA in spite of the fact that not only do the polls reform that point show you to be wrong (and we know how much you love polling to support a case) and that even you were claiming that was the way to go. It seems to me that the only thing you are consistent in is your undying, unqualified support for the Tory party irrespective of their policies.
"Denmark will lift nearly all Covid restrictions within days and return to 'life as we knew it before corona' after vaccine programme proved a 'super-weapon' – despite soaring cases
Denmark will remove all domestic Covid-19 restrictions from next Tuesday The Danish PM said the country's high vaccination rate was behind the decision She said that the milder Omicron variant was no longer 'threatening to society' The move has set a precedent for other European countries to follow suit despite high case numbers across the continent"
Interestingly, the government in Denmark is centre-left but the move commands cross-partisan support. All mainstream parties support it AIUI. It’s an encouraging development.
Just been sent this with the message 'They [Team Boris] are shitting all over Rishi, this makes a leadership challenge more likely. I wonder if Rishi walks?'
Rishi Sunak has been accused of blocking plans to invoke Article 16 by allies of the Prime Minister who say he is a “nominal Brexiteer” who has stalled progress on the Northern Ireland Protocol.
The claims come amid rising tensions over the Chancellor’s proposed 1.25 percentage point rise in National Insurance Contributions (NICs) as Boris Johnson’s premiership continues to hang by a thread pending the publication of Sue Gray’s “partygate” report.
On Thursday night, sources close to Mr Sunak were forced to deny reports that he had passed off the proposed £12 billion Health and Social Care levy as “the Prime Minister’s tax”, before insisting: “He is delivering on Brexit as Chancellor,” in response to suggestions that he has been “captured” by the “remainer” Treasury.
How many times are Tories and Corbyn Tories going to post this poll this evening?
If you dont like Polls reverting to small Labour leads or even Tories retaking the lead i would stay off here for the next month or two Pete
"Any other leader would be 20pts ahead" - Blair
Lionel?
I think he is dead but his corpse has more charisma than SKS
I am no Starmer enthusiast, however compared to what came before he is head and shoulders better. He may well get a caning against Johnson or who may come next. Starmer has not (yet) led his party into the outrageous racist disrepute your boy did, which is a huge feather in his cap.
Did you never worry back in the day about a "real" socialist like Len enjoying the luxury lifestyle with his tied homes and chauffeur driven limousines and more on his Union expense account, spending hard working members' subs?
You mentioned Nellist earlier, and hats off to Nellist for his stand on taking his MPs salary. But Nellist was a blinkered idealogue, he never ever made a difference because he was lost in his Marxist wonderland.
Give me vision fairness and hope everyday.
SKS offers the square route of FA
He does. All labour are offering currently are soundbites and slogans.
Labour seem to be taking the approach that the Tories are rubbish so people will support them.
In the nineties Blair made new labour look like a govt in waiting as a contrast to the Tories. With a couple of exceptions you cannot really say that about SKS labour.
Yes, still some work still to do, and Starmer does seem to recognise this. With each reshuffle the Labour frontbench gets stronger and more plausible, on current trends he will peak at the right time for the GE.
There’s a lot,of,work to do, time is passing quickly, and if they just think the so called red wall are merely sinners who will repent and return I think they are sadly mistaken. They need to listen to these communities instead of telling them what they think they want and taking them for granted as they have historically,voted labour. I always vote labour in general elections. At the moment I am planning not to vote.
Who cares? He rescued some dogs. Indeed my non Tory voting sister normally hates Boris but actually agreed with this rescue of Pen Farthing's dogs
I did too. There was never clear evidence that the flight reduced the number of evacuated refugees or that it had put anyone at risk. The hostility was a coalition of people who don't like the Tories and people who think it's soppy to like animals.
Whether the truth is being told by BJ is a separate issue.
Very much mostly the former. This one never passed what I think of as "the opposite test": if the government had done the opposite, the same people would have found a way to complain about that too.
Well, yes. Flying animals into a war zone is horrible.
I'd be very happy to pay for a ticket for our chihuahua.
We have two miniature schnauzers. Although we love them to bits, I think the Taliban would be less likely to kill them than they would translators working for the west. Endangered humans should be saved before dogs.
Wasting yet more time doing yet more fucking customs forms this time to export products which are zero tariff zero quota zero VAT from one place to another to declare that its the same fucking standards on one side of the border as it is on the other.
Seriously, this is why the Border Operating Model doesn't work and why we're completely gumming up our border so that everything takes an eternity to get through. Pointless red tape to declare that no tariff is payable, that no vat is payable, that no standards are different because our standards are their standards are our fucking standards. What is the point in all this?
Before some arse says "but you voted for this", no I didn't. "This" is the Boris Brexit deal. Where after decades of cutting red tape cost and petty bureaucracy the Tory party decided to fuck all that off and impose as much as possible. Not because we actually have diverged and there is anything to check. But because we might want to do so at some point in the future.
Madness. And still prannocks say "but this is much better for the country than we had before". Is it fuck.
This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.
And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.
So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.
And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.
So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
If either May or Boris had gone for full EEA and full free movement then no way would the Tories have won a majority in 2019 and Brexit would not have got done as Farage's Brexit Party would have got about 15-20% of the vote. The Leave vote would thus still have been split rather than united as it was in December 2019 behind Boris' Brexit Deal
I know how much you love quoting polls as if they are the only thing in the world that matters so here is one that I quoted in a PB thread header the day after Leave won the referendum.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit with 45% opposing. I would contend that this would indicate that overall there would be a clear majority of the country that would choose EFTA/EEA over complete separation from the Single Market."
The Government governs for the whole country not just those who won one particular side of a vote. It was incumbent upon them to seek a compromise, especially given that it was likely a majority of the electorate would have been happy with a soft Brexit. That we didn't do that was entirely due to a PM who did not understand Brexit and thought it was all about keeping the 'furrners' out followed by a PM who would have trouble finding the fluff in his belly button without a map and instructions.
So most Leave voters opposed EEA/EFTA, compared to the vast majority of Leave voters who voted for Boris' Deal in 2019.
Thanks for confirming I was absolutely right and Remain would have won in 2016 if the alternative was just Leave to EEA and keep free movement as most Leavers would not have bothered to turn out to vote Leave for just EEA
Nope you are not right and that is not what the figures showed. Given that almost half of Leave voters wanted to remain in the EEA and, given that we were leaving, a large majority of Remain voters would have wanted to minimise the damage as they saw it, then there would have been - and I contend still will be - a clear majority in favour of EFTA/EEA membership. I have the figures behind me. You have nothing but your rather singular views.
99% of Remain voters would still have voted Remain over Leave to EEA in the 2016 referendum. However plenty of working class Leave voters in the North and Midlands would have stayed home if Leave promised to keep free movement still and stay in the EEA.
So Remain would have won the referendum with about 60% of the vote and we would still be in the EU and no compromise would have been needed as there would have been no Brexit.
You won on the back of immigration control promises, EEA alone was never going to get you over 50% given we were outside the Eurozone in the EU anyway
We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely
A Starmer government may well do a version of that, especially if reliant on LD confidence and supply. Though given he needs the redwall seats I doubt he would agree to full free movement again. In a generation or two even the Tories might accept that to get back to power.
However the Tories now will not touch it with a bargepole given the threat of leakage to Farage and Tice. Plus Boris' current deal still has immigration just using a points system not free movement and trade deals with the EU and beyond anyway
Sorry I just realised I made a mistake. I was actually quoting you.
That full post should have been:
In June 2016 in response to my thread on joining the EEA HYUFD said:
"No, just realpolitik. We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely"
You were the one agreeing with me and advocating EFTA after the referendum.
What happened to you?
"Absolutely no one is talking about leaving the Single Market".
Daniel Hannan.
Dan Hannan advocated staying in the EEA both before and after the referendum. Indeed he still does advocate it.
And it was Hannan himslf , ofcourse, who with Matthew Ellliott, actually created Vote Leave, at Lord Leach's house in 2012, then called Business for Britain, and with dosh from hedgefunder Crispin Odey. A strange basis run and win a campaign on, and none too democratic.
Straw man attacks seem to be your style. And of course changing tack when you have been shown to be wrong about your facts.
Just been sent this with the message 'They [Team Boris] are shitting all over Rishi, this makes a leadership challenge more likely. I wonder if Rishi walks?'
Rishi Sunak has been accused of blocking plans to invoke Article 16 by allies of the Prime Minister who say he is a “nominal Brexiteer” who has stalled progress on the Northern Ireland Protocol.
The claims come amid rising tensions over the Chancellor’s proposed 1.25 percentage point rise in National Insurance Contributions (NICs) as Boris Johnson’s premiership continues to hang by a thread pending the publication of Sue Gray’s “partygate” report.
On Thursday night, sources close to Mr Sunak were forced to deny reports that he had passed off the proposed £12 billion Health and Social Care levy as “the Prime Minister’s tax”, before insisting: “He is delivering on Brexit as Chancellor,” in response to suggestions that he has been “captured” by the “remainer” Treasury.
If he wants the crown he is going to have to seize it, because otherwise times will have moved on and he will not be the 'coming man' anymore. He will be the clapped out CoE who presided over a cost of living nightmare.
Of course not. It was a biscuit for tax purposes...
That's a hole they don't want to go down, given the years of legal wrangling to determine what was cake or biscuit. If one slice remains, and can be shown to be cake, that woule be a lie that brings them down, Capone style.
Just been sent this with the message 'They [Team Boris] are shitting all over Rishi, this makes a leadership challenge more likely. I wonder if Rishi walks?'
Rishi Sunak has been accused of blocking plans to invoke Article 16 by allies of the Prime Minister who say he is a “nominal Brexiteer” who has stalled progress on the Northern Ireland Protocol.
The claims come amid rising tensions over the Chancellor’s proposed 1.25 percentage point rise in National Insurance Contributions (NICs) as Boris Johnson’s premiership continues to hang by a thread pending the publication of Sue Gray’s “partygate” report.
On Thursday night, sources close to Mr Sunak were forced to deny reports that he had passed off the proposed £12 billion Health and Social Care levy as “the Prime Minister’s tax”, before insisting: “He is delivering on Brexit as Chancellor,” in response to suggestions that he has been “captured” by the “remainer” Treasury.
If he wants the crown he is going to have to seize it, because otherwise times will have moved on and he will not be the 'coming man' anymore. He will be the clapped out CoE who presided over a cost of living nightmare.
He hardly helped himself today by slashing the time you can search for jobs in your own field from 3 months to 1 for recently redundant skilled workers.
Boris also knows the greatest threat to his premiership at present is not even Starmer, the next general election is at least 2 years away, it is Sunak.
Sunak is the only Tory who sometimes polls better than Boris, if Boris removes the Sunak threat he is safe, all other alternatives in the Tories poll worse than Boris
Wasting yet more time doing yet more fucking customs forms this time to export products which are zero tariff zero quota zero VAT from one place to another to declare that its the same fucking standards on one side of the border as it is on the other.
Seriously, this is why the Border Operating Model doesn't work and why we're completely gumming up our border so that everything takes an eternity to get through. Pointless red tape to declare that no tariff is payable, that no vat is payable, that no standards are different because our standards are their standards are our fucking standards. What is the point in all this?
Before some arse says "but you voted for this", no I didn't. "This" is the Boris Brexit deal. Where after decades of cutting red tape cost and petty bureaucracy the Tory party decided to fuck all that off and impose as much as possible. Not because we actually have diverged and there is anything to check. But because we might want to do so at some point in the future.
Madness. And still prannocks say "but this is much better for the country than we had before". Is it fuck.
This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.
And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.
So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.
And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.
So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
If either May or Boris had gone for full EEA and full free movement then no way would the Tories have won a majority in 2019 and Brexit would not have got done as Farage's Brexit Party would have got about 15-20% of the vote. The Leave vote would thus still have been split rather than united as it was in December 2019 behind Boris' Brexit Deal
I know how much you love quoting polls as if they are the only thing in the world that matters so here is one that I quoted in a PB thread header the day after Leave won the referendum.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit with 45% opposing. I would contend that this would indicate that overall there would be a clear majority of the country that would choose EFTA/EEA over complete separation from the Single Market."
The Government governs for the whole country not just those who won one particular side of a vote. It was incumbent upon them to seek a compromise, especially given that it was likely a majority of the electorate would have been happy with a soft Brexit. That we didn't do that was entirely due to a PM who did not understand Brexit and thought it was all about keeping the 'furrners' out followed by a PM who would have trouble finding the fluff in his belly button without a map and instructions.
So most Leave voters opposed EEA/EFTA, compared to the vast majority of Leave voters who voted for Boris' Deal in 2019.
Thanks for confirming I was absolutely right and Remain would have won in 2016 if the alternative was just Leave to EEA and keep free movement as most Leavers would not have bothered to turn out to vote Leave for just EEA
Nope you are not right and that is not what the figures showed. Given that almost half of Leave voters wanted to remain in the EEA and, given that we were leaving, a large majority of Remain voters would have wanted to minimise the damage as they saw it, then there would have been - and I contend still will be - a clear majority in favour of EFTA/EEA membership. I have the figures behind me. You have nothing but your rather singular views.
99% of Remain voters would still have voted Remain over Leave to EEA in the 2016 referendum. However plenty of working class Leave voters in the North and Midlands would have stayed home if Leave promised to keep free movement still and stay in the EEA.
So Remain would have won the referendum with about 60% of the vote and we would still be in the EU and no compromise would have been needed as there would have been no Brexit.
You won on the back of immigration control promises, EEA alone was never going to get you over 50% given we were outside the Eurozone in the EU anyway
We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely
A Starmer government may well do a version of that, especially if reliant on LD confidence and supply. Though given he needs the redwall seats I doubt he would agree to full free movement again. In a generation or two even the Tories might accept that to get back to power.
However the Tories now will not touch it with a bargepole given the threat of leakage to Farage and Tice. Plus Boris' current deal still has immigration just using a points system not free movement and trade deals with the EU and beyond anyway
Sorry I just realised I made a mistake. I was actually quoting you.
That full post should have been:
In June 2016 in response to my thread on joining the EEA HYUFD said:
"No, just realpolitik. We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely"
You were the one agreeing with me and advocating EFTA after the referendum.
What happened to you?
I had just voted Remain and Cameron was still Tory leader and PM (May did not even become PM until July 2016).
Most Remainers at that time would have accepted EEA as the closest alternative to Remain on offer. However they still would have voted for Remain over EEA in the Referendum if that was the main basis of the Leave campaign.
However over 5 years later, I am quite happy with the Boris Deal which respects the Leave vote in full, including ending free movement and replacing it with a points system and allowing us to do our own trade deals while still having a trade deal with the EU. I would have opposed No Deal Brexit yes but I actually think the Boris Deal is in many respects better than EEA
And yet you persist in your claim that there was no support for EFTA in spite of the fact that not only do the polls reform that point show you to be wrong (and we know how much you love polling to support a case) and that even you were claiming that was the way to go. It seems to me that the only thing you are consistent in is your undying, unqualified support for the Tory party irrespective of their policies.
If the 2016 EU referendum was straight Remain or Leave to EFTA with free movement, Remain would have won.
Working class Leavers would have stayed home rather than vote for EEA so it would not have been an issue as we would still be in the EU
The NI rise was a badly-designed response to the need to raise more dosh, but scrapping it would be even dumber. Once again it would make Tory MPs who supported the government line look stupid, it wouldn't be a well-targeted way of helping those who are going to be very badly hit by the cost of living crisis, and it would add to the impression that the government is just as fiscally irresponsible as Labour.
He's a big jessie, he's from Scotland, I can deal with him, I've dealt with ex prisoners before.
I seem to recall when they did up one the town centre pubs in St. Andrews from being very much a locals pub to one that subsequently attracted a posh student crowd that Ferguson and his mates visited one evening very early after the renovation.
There was then quite a bit of further renovation.
I've never heard that story but I wonder if it was the Central? That used to be a proper pub back in the day but got tarted up and became a bit of a yah watering hole IIRC.
Yes, it was the Central. Got done up, iirc, fairly early in my undergrad days. All hearsay on my part, I never saw the event nor the extent of the damage, but I think I remember it closing again for a little bit. Would've been when Dunc was still at Dundee United.
If I ever went on Mastermind my specialist subject could be St Andrews pubs. Going up for half term, might see if I can drop in on one of them next month.
He's a big jessie, he's from Scotland, I can deal with him, I've dealt with ex prisoners before.
I seem to recall when they did up one the town centre pubs in St. Andrews from being very much a locals pub to one that subsequently attracted a posh student crowd that Ferguson and his mates visited one evening very early after the renovation.
There was then quite a bit of further renovation.
I've never heard that story but I wonder if it was the Central? That used to be a proper pub back in the day but got tarted up and became a bit of a yah watering hole IIRC.
Yes, it was the Central. Got done up, iirc, fairly early in my undergrad days. All hearsay on my part, I never saw the event nor the extent of the damage, but I think I remember it closing again for a little bit. Would've been when Dunc was still at Dundee United.
If I ever went on Mastermind my specialist subject could be St Andrews pubs. Going up for half term, might see if I can drop in on one of them next month.
The NI rise was a badly-designed response to the need to raise more dosh, but scrapping it would be even dumber. Once again it would make Tory MPs who supported the government line look stupid, it wouldn't be a well-targeted way of helping those who are going to be very badly hit by the cost of living crisis, and it would add to the impression that the government is just as fiscally irresponsible as Labour.
Boris was not elected to be fiscally responsible, he was elected to get Brexit done and beat Corbyn on a low tax, high spend manifesto.
He's a big jessie, he's from Scotland, I can deal with him, I've dealt with ex prisoners before.
I seem to recall when they did up one the town centre pubs in St. Andrews from being very much a locals pub to one that subsequently attracted a posh student crowd that Ferguson and his mates visited one evening very early after the renovation.
There was then quite a bit of further renovation.
I've never heard that story but I wonder if it was the Central? That used to be a proper pub back in the day but got tarted up and became a bit of a yah watering hole IIRC.
Yes, it was the Central. Got done up, iirc, fairly early in my undergrad days. All hearsay on my part, I never saw the event nor the extent of the damage, but I think I remember it closing again for a little bit. Would've been when Dunc was still at Dundee United.
If I ever went on Mastermind my specialist subject could be St Andrews pubs. Going up for half term, might see if I can drop in on one of them next month.
Only one?
Ha ha. I'm going up with my wife and kids, let's see what I can get away with.
Apparently Biden told the Ukrainian President Zelensky that a Russian attack, and a full on one at that, was coming in the days ahead. Zelensky reportedly told him he doesn't buy it that this is the case and the US is overreacting. Whether that is a rejection of its proximity or of any actual attack of note isn't clear.
Someone is right, someone is wrong. Take your pick. US intelligence reports are the final phase of Russian preparation, the rapid ship of troops to the pre-positioned equipment, is now underway but the Ukrainians don't seem convinced that this is either a) as advanced as the US claim and/or b) that the Russian's intend to use it.
Wasting yet more time doing yet more fucking customs forms this time to export products which are zero tariff zero quota zero VAT from one place to another to declare that its the same fucking standards on one side of the border as it is on the other.
Seriously, this is why the Border Operating Model doesn't work and why we're completely gumming up our border so that everything takes an eternity to get through. Pointless red tape to declare that no tariff is payable, that no vat is payable, that no standards are different because our standards are their standards are our fucking standards. What is the point in all this?
Before some arse says "but you voted for this", no I didn't. "This" is the Boris Brexit deal. Where after decades of cutting red tape cost and petty bureaucracy the Tory party decided to fuck all that off and impose as much as possible. Not because we actually have diverged and there is anything to check. But because we might want to do so at some point in the future.
Madness. And still prannocks say "but this is much better for the country than we had before". Is it fuck.
This is what you voted for. They literally said we'd leave the Single Market and Customs Union during the campaign.
And there isn't a single non-EU EEA nation in the Customs Union anyway.
So if you wanted to leave the EU but still have all EU benefits then I'm sorry but that's your own mistake.
And we actually have diverged. UK customs rules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. UK tariff schedules are not 100% the same as EU ones anymore. So the divergence is very real which is what we voted for.
So fill in the forms and quit moaning.
There was no need to leave the Single Market when we left the EU. That is a specific decision taken by he post-referendum Government. The EEA always was and still is an option - indeed the best option. It is only he idiocy of the Governments since 2016 that has prevented it being seriously considered.
If either May or Boris had gone for full EEA and full free movement then no way would the Tories have won a majority in 2019 and Brexit would not have got done as Farage's Brexit Party would have got about 15-20% of the vote. The Leave vote would thus still have been split rather than united as it was in December 2019 behind Boris' Brexit Deal
I know how much you love quoting polls as if they are the only thing in the world that matters so here is one that I quoted in a PB thread header the day after Leave won the referendum.
"A Yougov poll on 8th June showed that 42% of Leave supporters would prefer the EFTA/EEA route post-Brexit with 45% opposing. I would contend that this would indicate that overall there would be a clear majority of the country that would choose EFTA/EEA over complete separation from the Single Market."
The Government governs for the whole country not just those who won one particular side of a vote. It was incumbent upon them to seek a compromise, especially given that it was likely a majority of the electorate would have been happy with a soft Brexit. That we didn't do that was entirely due to a PM who did not understand Brexit and thought it was all about keeping the 'furrners' out followed by a PM who would have trouble finding the fluff in his belly button without a map and instructions.
So most Leave voters opposed EEA/EFTA, compared to the vast majority of Leave voters who voted for Boris' Deal in 2019.
Thanks for confirming I was absolutely right and Remain would have won in 2016 if the alternative was just Leave to EEA and keep free movement as most Leavers would not have bothered to turn out to vote Leave for just EEA
Nope you are not right and that is not what the figures showed. Given that almost half of Leave voters wanted to remain in the EEA and, given that we were leaving, a large majority of Remain voters would have wanted to minimise the damage as they saw it, then there would have been - and I contend still will be - a clear majority in favour of EFTA/EEA membership. I have the figures behind me. You have nothing but your rather singular views.
99% of Remain voters would still have voted Remain over Leave to EEA in the 2016 referendum. However plenty of working class Leave voters in the North and Midlands would have stayed home if Leave promised to keep free movement still and stay in the EEA.
So Remain would have won the referendum with about 60% of the vote and we would still be in the EU and no compromise would have been needed as there would have been no Brexit.
You won on the back of immigration control promises, EEA alone was never going to get you over 50% given we were outside the Eurozone in the EU anyway
We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely
A Starmer government may well do a version of that, especially if reliant on LD confidence and supply. Though given he needs the redwall seats I doubt he would agree to full free movement again. In a generation or two even the Tories might accept that to get back to power.
However the Tories now will not touch it with a bargepole given the threat of leakage to Farage and Tice. Plus Boris' current deal still has immigration just using a points system not free movement and trade deals with the EU and beyond anyway
Sorry I just realised I made a mistake. I was actually quoting you.
That full post should have been:
In June 2016 in response to my thread on joining the EEA HYUFD said:
"No, just realpolitik. We can still try for an EFTA deal with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liechtenstein which preserves some elements of the single market and free movement. UKIP may protest a little but the referendum was about leaving the EU not ending all immigration and trade completely"
You were the one agreeing with me and advocating EFTA after the referendum.
What happened to you?
"Absolutely no one is talking about leaving the Single Market".
Daniel Hannan.
Dan Hannan advocated staying in the EEA both before and after the referendum. Indeed he still does advocate it.
And it was Hannan himslf , ofcourse, who with Matthew Ellliott, actually created Vote Leave, at Lord Leach's house in 2012, then called Business for Britain, and with dosh from hedgefunder Crispin Odey. A strange basis run and win a campaign on, and none too democratic.
Straw man attacks seem to be your style. And of course changing tack when you have been shown to be wrong about your facts.
In what way have I been proven wrong on any of the facts, or created any straw men ?
If anything, your addition that Hannan is *still* claming to support the EEA, makes the whole thing even more bizarre than before, and my case even stronger ; I certainly can't see how it contradicts it.
He organised the entire Vote Leave infrastructure, won a referendum, claiming as you say even now to support EEA all along, and then hailed Boris's "extraordimary Brexit deal" in 2019. What on earth is going on there ?
How many times are Tories and Corbyn Tories going to post this poll this evening?
If you dont like Polls reverting to small Labour leads or even Tories retaking the lead i would stay off here for the next month or two Pete
"Any other leader would be 20pts ahead" - Blair
Lionel?
I think he is dead but his corpse has more charisma than SKS
I am no Starmer enthusiast, however compared to what came before he is head and shoulders better. He may well get a caning against Johnson or who may come next. Starmer has not (yet) led his party into the outrageous racist disrepute your boy did, which is a huge feather in his cap.
Did you never worry back in the day about a "real" socialist like Len enjoying the luxury lifestyle with his tied homes and chauffeur driven limousines and more on his Union expense account, spending hard working members' subs?
You mentioned Nellist earlier, and hats off to Nellist for his stand on taking his MPs salary. But Nellist was a blinkered idealogue, he never ever made a difference because he was lost in his Marxist wonderland.
Give me vision fairness and hope everyday.
SKS offers the square route of FA
He does. All labour are offering currently are soundbites and slogans.
Labour seem to be taking the approach that the Tories are rubbish so people will support them.
In the nineties Blair made new labour look like a govt in waiting as a contrast to the Tories. With a couple of exceptions you cannot really say that about SKS labour.
This is true. Mind you, all the Conservatives have offered so far has been soundbites and slogans and it hasn't done them any apparent harm in terms of popularity - Partygate is a different issue from a lack of any policies. You might afford the Opposition that luxury, but governments are surely supposed to make choices and do stuff.
Just been sent this with the message 'They [Team Boris] are shitting all over Rishi, this makes a leadership challenge more likely. I wonder if Rishi walks?'
Rishi Sunak has been accused of blocking plans to invoke Article 16 by allies of the Prime Minister who say he is a “nominal Brexiteer” who has stalled progress on the Northern Ireland Protocol.
The claims come amid rising tensions over the Chancellor’s proposed 1.25 percentage point rise in National Insurance Contributions (NICs) as Boris Johnson’s premiership continues to hang by a thread pending the publication of Sue Gray’s “partygate” report.
On Thursday night, sources close to Mr Sunak were forced to deny reports that he had passed off the proposed £12 billion Health and Social Care levy as “the Prime Minister’s tax”, before insisting: “He is delivering on Brexit as Chancellor,” in response to suggestions that he has been “captured” by the “remainer” Treasury.
If he wants the crown he is going to have to seize it, because otherwise times will have moved on and he will not be the 'coming man' anymore. He will be the clapped out CoE who presided over a cost of living nightmare.
He hardly helped himself today by slashing the time you can search for jobs in your own field from 3 months to 1 for recently redundant skilled workers.
Boris also knows the greatest threat to his premiership at present is not even Starmer, the next general election is at least 2 years away, it is Sunak.
Sunak is the only Tory who sometimes polls better than Boris, if Boris removes the Sunak threat he is safe, all other alternatives in the Tories poll worse than Boris
But having politically assassinated the saboteurs in his own party he needs something fiendish to win GE2024, assuming his popularity remains in the toilet. Perhaps a populist illiberal policy like capital punishment, or a winnable war, or gerrymandered elections? If those turn out to be the options, I'll take gerrymandered elections.
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It's as if we cannot bear to look at the real issues.
On the other hand our Spanish podenco looks the part but has actively contributed to my running worsening as she is slow and more keen on sniffs than miles.
Maybe the day the Gray report finally comes out?
They are smart though, so you have to be a bit careful. Mine often posts on PB in my absence.
Allie Hodgkins-Brown
@AllieHBNews
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Friday’s GUARDIAN: “Treasury alarm as PM refuses to confirm national insurance rise” #TomorrowsPapersToday
Surely requires a bill to repeal?
Can you imagine Thatcher running her government like this?
Rishi Sunak has been accused of blocking plans to invoke Article 16 by allies of the Prime Minister who say he is a “nominal Brexiteer” who has stalled progress on the Northern Ireland Protocol.
The claims come amid rising tensions over the Chancellor’s proposed 1.25 percentage point rise in National Insurance Contributions (NICs) as Boris Johnson’s premiership continues to hang by a thread pending the publication of Sue Gray’s “partygate” report.
On Thursday night, sources close to Mr Sunak were forced to deny reports that he had passed off the proposed £12 billion Health and Social Care levy as “the Prime Minister’s tax”, before insisting: “He is delivering on Brexit as Chancellor,” in response to suggestions that he has been “captured” by the “remainer” Treasury.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/01/27/rishi-sunak-fighting-hard-stop-invoking-article-16-claim-boris/
England 27 Jan
Denmark 1 Feb
Noises suggest it will be a race between Scotland and France next?
I wonder what Wor Dom can bring to the table?
Boris also knows the greatest threat to his premiership at present is not even Starmer, the next general election is at least 2 years away, it is Sunak.
Sunak is the only Tory who sometimes polls better than Boris, if Boris removes the Sunak threat he is safe, all other alternatives in the Tories poll worse than Boris
Working class Leavers would have stayed home rather than vote for EEA so it would not have been an issue as we would still be in the EU
https://twitter.com/SJAMcBride/status/1486828587382722564?s=20&t=GZC_BfuGXtDWo1pAM1-bSg
Even the IFS said the LDs were the only party committed to reduce the national debt as a fraction of national income in their 2019 manifesto
https://election2019.ifs.org.uk/article/liberal-democrat-manifesto-an-initial-reaction-from-ifs
Apparently Biden told the Ukrainian President Zelensky that a Russian attack, and a full on one at that, was coming in the days ahead. Zelensky reportedly told him he doesn't buy it that this is the case and the US is overreacting. Whether that is a rejection of its proximity or of any actual attack of note isn't clear.
Someone is right, someone is wrong. Take your pick. US intelligence reports are the final phase of Russian preparation, the rapid ship of troops to the pre-positioned equipment, is now underway but the Ukrainians don't seem convinced that this is either a) as advanced as the US claim and/or b) that the Russian's intend to use it.
If anything, your addition that Hannan is *still* claming to support the EEA, makes the whole thing even more bizarre than before, and my case even stronger ; I certainly can't see how it contradicts it.
He organised the entire Vote Leave infrastructure, won a referendum, claiming as you say even now to support EEA all along, and then hailed Boris's "extraordimary Brexit deal" in 2019. What on earth is going on there ?