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Remember this from the 2016 referendum campaign? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited October 7 in General
Remember this from the 2016 referendum campaign? – politicalbetting.com

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  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,691
    First, like Steve Bruce in the sack race.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,602
    edited October 7
    Second like Labour Remain
  • tlg86 said:

    First, like Steve Bruce in the sack race.

    I've advised Steve Bruce to not go to any embassies.
  • tlg86 said:

    First, like Steve Bruce in the sack race.

    I'm sure he'll leave with an adequate sack of gold
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,963
    FPT:
    Italian Vineyards are hiring machines, as they can’t get the staff.
    https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/21/10/07/1547245/robots-take-over-italys-vineyards-as-wineries-struggle-with-covid-19-worker-shortages

    (Insert “Because of Brexit” joke here).
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,283
    Farooq said:

    Omnium said:

    Farooq said:

    Omnium said:

    Farooq said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:


    There was even churn in your head, when you went from "absolutely happy to leave the EU by voting YES" to "how dare they drag us out of the EU by voting Leave", in the space of just two years

    It's fitting that someone who always was and always will be a tourist in Scotland can barely fill a postcard with any real insight on the place.
    You seem oddly bitter
    There's nothing odd about it. Look at the attitudes of remainers.
    There is a definite echo....


    To be fair to TUD - and Nats - and indeed Remainers, it must be very hard to have a much-valued political identity denied, or taken away. If indyref had gone YES I can imagine we'd have very depressed NO-voters on here. Sad either way

    My takeaway from the last ten years of turmoil is NO MORE BLOODY REFERENDUMS. Certainly on constitutional matters. They are bitterly divisive. We have an ancient parliament, much revered around the world, through which we express our democratic rights. It has served us pretty well for 800 years.

    Let it go back to doing that, now it has all its powers restored from Brussels. Enough turbulence and bile.
    Served who pretty well for 800 years?
    You and all of your ancestors. Me and all of my ancestors. Leon and all of his ancestors. We're all here to comment so the past can't have been that bad.

    The past by definition has served us all well. We may have nasty stories to tell, or we may have nasty secrets - I'm sure if you dig back far enough we all have both.

    Probably best to fix our eyes on the future, and that's not about leave/remain.
    Everything that ever happened is right.. and the proof is Leon exists?
    No.

    "We" can't moan so much about everything that has ever happened.

    Stuff that's happened just "is".

    I thought we were praising our glorious past, not moaning?
    Wait, does Leon even exist? So confused right now.
    Pull yourself together. Not everything is about your @Leon obsession.
    Au contraire. 806 years of English history has been leading to exactly this moment. All our greatest hours: Dunkirk! Suez! The Somme! Yorktown! are mere paving slabs on the road that has lead us to this. This! This best of all possible worlds! For God, Leon, and St George!
    For God, Sean, and St George!
  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,709

    Farooq said:

    Omnium said:

    Farooq said:

    Omnium said:

    Farooq said:

    Omnium said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:


    There was even churn in your head, when you went from "absolutely happy to leave the EU by voting YES" to "how dare they drag us out of the EU by voting Leave", in the space of just two years

    It's fitting that someone who always was and always will be a tourist in Scotland can barely fill a postcard with any real insight on the place.
    You seem oddly bitter
    There's nothing odd about it. Look at the attitudes of remainers.
    There is a definite echo....


    To be fair to TUD - and Nats - and indeed Remainers, it must be very hard to have a much-valued political identity denied, or taken away. If indyref had gone YES I can imagine we'd have very depressed NO-voters on here. Sad either way

    My takeaway from the last ten years of turmoil is NO MORE BLOODY REFERENDUMS. Certainly on constitutional matters. They are bitterly divisive. We have an ancient parliament, much revered around the world, through which we express our democratic rights. It has served us pretty well for 800 years.

    Let it go back to doing that, now it has all its powers restored from Brussels. Enough turbulence and bile.
    Served who pretty well for 800 years?
    You and all of your ancestors. Me and all of my ancestors. Leon and all of his ancestors. We're all here to comment so the past can't have been that bad.

    The past by definition has served us all well. We may have nasty stories to tell, or we may have nasty secrets - I'm sure if you dig back far enough we all have both.

    Probably best to fix our eyes on the future, and that's not about leave/remain.
    Everything that ever happened is right.. and the proof is Leon exists?
    No.

    "We" can't moan so much about everything that has ever happened.

    Stuff that's happened just "is".

    I thought we were praising our glorious past, not moaning?
    Wait, does Leon even exist? So confused right now.
    Pull yourself together. Not everything is about your @Leon obsession.
    Au contraire. 806 years of English history has been leading to exactly this moment. All our greatest hours: Dunkirk! Suez! The Somme! Yorktown! are mere paving slabs on the road that has lead us to this. This! This best of all possible worlds! For God, Leon, and St George!
    For God, Sean, and St George!
    I think he pronounces the L in Leon as 'Sh' and the 'o' as 'or'
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,095
    Sandpit said:

    I remember Day 1 of the referendum campaign, when the Remain campaign Chair, Sir Stuart Rose, proudly told a room full of business leaders that leaving the EU will lead to wages going up for the low paid.

    Congratulations, Sir Stuart.

    I remember thinking "That's a Ratner Moment".....
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 12,887
    edited October 7
    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,437
    Sandpit said:

    FPT:
    Italian Vineyards are hiring machines, as they can’t get the staff.
    https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/21/10/07/1547245/robots-take-over-italys-vineyards-as-wineries-struggle-with-covid-19-worker-shortages

    (Insert “Because of Brexit” joke here).

    Well. It obviously isn't because of a surfeit of cheap Eastern European labour.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,476
    ...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,896
    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I thought the German Constitutional Court had ruled a couple of times that EU law didn’t have primacy over German Fundamental Law
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,963

    Sandpit said:

    I remember Day 1 of the referendum campaign, when the Remain campaign Chair, Sir Stuart Rose, proudly told a room full of business leaders that leaving the EU will lead to wages going up for the low paid.

    Congratulations, Sir Stuart.

    I remember thinking "That's a Ratner Moment".....
    It was the classic non-politician mistake, of speaking to the audience in the room rather than the wider public.

    Funnily enough, he never appeared in public for the rest of the campaign - except to repeat his comments in front of a Select Commitee hearing!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,437
    Toon heaving with ecstatic fans.
    First time in years.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,526
    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654
    Why isnt there a video with the lies of Remain.. just for balance?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,286
    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I thought the German Constitutional Court had ruled a couple of times that EU law didn’t have primacy over German Fundamental Law
    The reason the UK wasn't a good fit for the EU is that we actually respected the supremacy of EU law, rather than just ignoring it and overriding it when it doesn't suit our interests.

    Though for the Poles to outright say it, rather than just ignore the EU when it doesn't suit them like France and Germany, is a new step.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,437
    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    Rather ironic we pushed and pushed for expansion eastwards. Then buggered off.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,535
    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Ouch!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,963
    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    To lose lose one member in a decade is a little careless. To lose two is existential, as the rats leave the sinking ship.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,535
    It's starting to feel like Johnson's speech has bombed.

    But it will make no difference as he has framed the next election.

    Only the forthcoming economic shitstorm can unseat him now.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,709
    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    What's Obama doing in Boris' Cabinet?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 12,887
    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I thought the German Constitutional Court had ruled a couple of times that EU law didn’t have primacy over German Fundamental Law
    I think the Polish case forms around the Polish judiciary being a tool of the ruling party and not enacting the rule of law. The EU objects to this. But it's precisely that tool of the ruling party who decides on the instruction of their masters that it gets precedence on what passes for law in Poland.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,868
    dixiedean said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    Rather ironic we pushed and pushed for expansion eastwards. Then buggered off.
    The UK wanted wider to stop deeper but got wider and deeper.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,602
    dixiedean said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    Rather ironic we pushed and pushed for expansion eastwards. Then buggered off.
    Drang nach Osten :lol:
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,969

    Why isnt there a video with the lies of Remain.. just for balance?

    Remain lost.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 464
    dixiedean said:

    Toon heaving with ecstatic fans.
    First time in years.

    losing their heads already?
  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,709

    dixiedean said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    Rather ironic we pushed and pushed for expansion eastwards. Then buggered off.
    The UK wanted wider to stop deeper but got wider and deeper.
    I had that exact same thought, then continued it. It was Maggie's long play - set the EU on a path of not just deeper, but wider also, knowing the two were incompatible, then have the UK leave so it could watch from the sidelines as the whole edifice folded.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,286
    TimT said:

    dixiedean said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    Rather ironic we pushed and pushed for expansion eastwards. Then buggered off.
    The UK wanted wider to stop deeper but got wider and deeper.
    I had that exact same thought, then continued it. It was Maggie's long play - set the EU on a path of not just deeper, but wider also, knowing the two were incompatible, then have the UK leave so it could watch from the sidelines as the whole edifice folded.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 12,887
    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    The Poles love the EU. More than anyone else as I recall. But I agree with your suggestion. As with all membership organizations, the EU does need a way to cut members loose that don't share its values.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,423
    I heard the new owners of Newcastle paid for the club in bags stuffed full of Khash.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 464
    edited October 7
    TimT said:

    dixiedean said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    Rather ironic we pushed and pushed for expansion eastwards. Then buggered off.
    The UK wanted wider to stop deeper but got wider and deeper.
    I had that exact same thought, then continued it. It was Maggie's long play - set the EU on a path of not just deeper, but wider also, knowing the two were incompatible, then have the UK leave so it could watch from the sidelines as the whole edifice folded.
    The woman was omnipotent. Did she predict Boris shitting on fiscal conservatism, in 79 or 82?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,868
    Sandpit said:

    FPT:
    Italian Vineyards are hiring machines, as they can’t get the staff.
    https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/21/10/07/1547245/robots-take-over-italys-vineyards-as-wineries-struggle-with-covid-19-worker-shortages

    (Insert “Because of Brexit” joke here).

    Even with unemployment being double what it is in the UK and youth unemployment being over 25%.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,709

    TimT said:

    dixiedean said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    Rather ironic we pushed and pushed for expansion eastwards. Then buggered off.
    The UK wanted wider to stop deeper but got wider and deeper.
    I had that exact same thought, then continued it. It was Maggie's long play - set the EU on a path of not just deeper, but wider also, knowing the two were incompatible, then have the UK leave so it could watch from the sidelines as the whole edifice folded.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37iHSwA1SwE
    LOL. I guess my FCO past is showing through ...
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,766

    Why isnt there a video with the lies of Remain.. just for balance?

    Remain lost.
    Take back control, but do not take responsibility. You win, you own it.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,286
    FF43 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    The Poles love the EU. More than anyone else as I recall. But I agree with your suggestion. As with all membership organizations, the EU does need a way to cut members loose that don't share its values.
    EU values is a bit oxymoronic though isn't it?

    The EU has no values, its just pure politics as to self-interest of whoever is speaking at the time.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,602

    Why isnt there a video with the lies of Remain.. just for balance?

    Remain lost.
    LEAVE 52%
    REMAIN 48%

    :innocent:
  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,709

    TimT said:

    dixiedean said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    Rather ironic we pushed and pushed for expansion eastwards. Then buggered off.
    The UK wanted wider to stop deeper but got wider and deeper.
    I had that exact same thought, then continued it. It was Maggie's long play - set the EU on a path of not just deeper, but wider also, knowing the two were incompatible, then have the UK leave so it could watch from the sidelines as the whole edifice folded.
    The woman was omnipotent. Did she predict Boris shitting on fiscal conservatism, in 79 or 82?
    LOL. My comment was not entirely serious. :D
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654

    Why isnt there a video with the lies of Remain.. just for balance?

    Remain lost.

    Why isnt there a video with the lies of Remain.. just for balance?

    Remain lost.
    Well would you believe it. So if Remain had won would you be running this?

    Did you see the You gov poll where Labours vote has dropped considerably, people still support the Tories, and Labour are now less popular than Corbyn's loony.left.. takes some effort to get that bad... Green vote is increasing amd the Lib Dems are shipwecked with an unimpressive leader. who is going to challenge Boris???.. if not from within his own Party.?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,677

    TimT said:

    dixiedean said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    Rather ironic we pushed and pushed for expansion eastwards. Then buggered off.
    The UK wanted wider to stop deeper but got wider and deeper.
    I had that exact same thought, then continued it. It was Maggie's long play - set the EU on a path of not just deeper, but wider also, knowing the two were incompatible, then have the UK leave so it could watch from the sidelines as the whole edifice folded.
    The woman was omnipotent. Did she predict Boris shitting on fiscal conservatism, in 79 or 82?
    Who says she isn’t using Boris as a vessel? ;)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,423

    Why isnt there a video with the lies of Remain.. just for balance?

    The remain campaign definitely had less lies. The likes of Stuart Rose's frank truths sank it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,526

    Sandpit said:

    FPT:
    Italian Vineyards are hiring machines, as they can’t get the staff.
    https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/21/10/07/1547245/robots-take-over-italys-vineyards-as-wineries-struggle-with-covid-19-worker-shortages

    (Insert “Because of Brexit” joke here).

    Even with unemployment being double what it is in the UK and youth unemployment being over 25%.
    Italian young people live at home, and don't want to work in the fields.

    It's not an uncommon problem in the Western world.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,535

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    6m
    INDEPENDENT DIGITAL: 60,000 could die from flu this winter #TomorrowsPapersToday
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,286
    The video in the thread header is quite relevant to today isn't it? It was spot on.

    The deficit is bad now, but that's after taking back control of our income. Just imagine how much worse it would have been if we hadn't stopped paying the EU?

    How much worse would our deficit be if we were responsible for paying towards the EU bailout for Covid as well as for the EU budget contributions and for Covid?

    We got out just in time to save the NHS didn't we?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,418
    Hadn't seen that ad before - they must have known the 5 new member stuff was hokum, but otherwise it's quite impressive - can see why it was effective.

    This may be of interest to @Cyclefree though with luck her daughter is not in a similar position -:

    https://labourlist.org/2021/10/leaving-my-pub-i-made-it-through-lockdowns-but-cant-survive-the-recovery/

    The point about businesses not being protected from fire-and-hire mistreatment is a strong one.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,677


    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    6m
    INDEPENDENT DIGITAL: 60,000 could die from flu this winter #TomorrowsPapersToday

    Could. Bloody hell.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,868

    TimT said:

    dixiedean said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    Rather ironic we pushed and pushed for expansion eastwards. Then buggered off.
    The UK wanted wider to stop deeper but got wider and deeper.
    I had that exact same thought, then continued it. It was Maggie's long play - set the EU on a path of not just deeper, but wider also, knowing the two were incompatible, then have the UK leave so it could watch from the sidelines as the whole edifice folded.
    The woman was omnipotent. Did she predict Boris shitting on fiscal conservatism, in 79 or 82?
    Fiscal conservatism died when the banks were bailed out ** since when its been just about who got the best places at the trough.

    ** well it died earlier when Gordon Brown thought he'd abolished 'boom and bust' but had only abolished the boom part.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,526
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    To lose lose one member in a decade is a little careless. To lose two is existential, as the rats leave the sinking ship.
    Actually, I don't think that's true at all.

    I think the EU would be a lot better off it only had countries that were broadly committed to "Ever Closer Union". Otherwise it will be forever attempting little carve outs.

    I think they would also be wise to make it clear that treaty commitments are treaty commitments. If you can't do the time, don't do the... you know.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,535
    TimT said:

    TimT said:

    dixiedean said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    Rather ironic we pushed and pushed for expansion eastwards. Then buggered off.
    The UK wanted wider to stop deeper but got wider and deeper.
    I had that exact same thought, then continued it. It was Maggie's long play - set the EU on a path of not just deeper, but wider also, knowing the two were incompatible, then have the UK leave so it could watch from the sidelines as the whole edifice folded.
    The woman was omnipotent. Did she predict Boris shitting on fiscal conservatism, in 79 or 82?
    LOL. My comment was not entirely serious. :D
    I think Thatch would have hated Johnson. His glib manner, the mindless banter, the jokes, the recklessness, the appalling attention to work and detail, the less than wholehearted focus on family life.

    She was a deeply serious woman brought up in a strict Methodist household.

  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,709
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    To lose lose one member in a decade is a little careless. To lose two is existential, as the rats leave the sinking ship.
    Actually, I don't think that's true at all.

    I think the EU would be a lot better off it only had countries that were broadly committed to "Ever Closer Union". Otherwise it will be forever attempting little carve outs.

    I think they would also be wise to make it clear that treaty commitments are treaty commitments. If you can't do the time, don't do the... you know.
    Which countries do you think would prefer the UK's lighter touch? Just Sweden and Denmark? Can't really see the Eastern 6 preferring it without the monetary transfers.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654

    It's starting to feel like Johnson's speech has bombed.

    But it will make no difference as he has framed the next election.

    Only the forthcoming economic shitstorm can unseat him now.

    To feel to whom? You ?
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 464
    RobD said:

    TimT said:

    dixiedean said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    Rather ironic we pushed and pushed for expansion eastwards. Then buggered off.
    The UK wanted wider to stop deeper but got wider and deeper.
    I had that exact same thought, then continued it. It was Maggie's long play - set the EU on a path of not just deeper, but wider also, knowing the two were incompatible, then have the UK leave so it could watch from the sidelines as the whole edifice folded.
    The woman was omnipotent. Did she predict Boris shitting on fiscal conservatism, in 79 or 82?
    Who says she isn’t using Boris as a vessel? ;)
    I'm sure she'd be filling him up if she could.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,418
    RobD said:


    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    6m
    INDEPENDENT DIGITAL: 60,000 could die from flu this winter #TomorrowsPapersToday

    Could. Bloody hell.
    The government should make media use of the word "could" illegal...
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,551
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I thought the German Constitutional Court had ruled a couple of times that EU law didn’t have primacy over German Fundamental Law
    That is correct.

    EU law has supremacy over national law only to the extent agreed in the treaties. If the EU claims powers that are not envisaged in its treaties, and which contradict national law (or countries' constitutions), then that it is the duty of national courts to slap the EU down.

    When countries join the EU, they make certain treaty commitments regarding their legal systems, and the maintenance of an independent judiciary. I think there is a good case that Poland (and Hungary) are no longer in compliance with their treaty commitments.

    I would suggest that the solution to this is that Poland and Hungary should cease to be members of the EU. They clearly aren't interested in "the project".

    And I would suggest that the UK should take the lead in creating a lighter-touch, less political free trade area. One that - in the fullness of time - would hopefully have a very close relationship with the EU. One that was about a single currency and political integration, and one that was solely about free trade.

    Done right, I could see a number of non-Eurozone members choose our grouping over the EU. And the EU, stripped of all the complexity of managing two groups of members, who will often have opposing interests.
    But Poles are the ones with the most favourable view of the EU. Why should they leave an organisation that is trying to defend an independent judiciary?

    https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/the-european-union/


  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,709

    TimT said:

    TimT said:

    dixiedean said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    Rather ironic we pushed and pushed for expansion eastwards. Then buggered off.
    The UK wanted wider to stop deeper but got wider and deeper.
    I had that exact same thought, then continued it. It was Maggie's long play - set the EU on a path of not just deeper, but wider also, knowing the two were incompatible, then have the UK leave so it could watch from the sidelines as the whole edifice folded.
    The woman was omnipotent. Did she predict Boris shitting on fiscal conservatism, in 79 or 82?
    LOL. My comment was not entirely serious. :D
    I think Thatch would have hated Johnson. His glib manner, the mindless banter, the jokes, the recklessness, the appalling attention to work and detail, the less than wholehearted focus on family life.

    She was a deeply serious woman brought up in a strict Methodist household.

    I think that is right. She would not even have made him one of the vegetables.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654
    edited October 7
    RobD said:


    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    6m
    INDEPENDENT DIGITAL: 60,000 could die from flu this winter #TomorrowsPapersToday

    Could. Bloody hell.
    Thousands die from flu every year. .. but
    critically personal sanitation is a lot better than it was. I think the story is more scary than factually based. We MIGHT get a new Asian flu that might kill.millions....its just speculation.imho.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,526
    TimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    To lose lose one member in a decade is a little careless. To lose two is existential, as the rats leave the sinking ship.
    Actually, I don't think that's true at all.

    I think the EU would be a lot better off it only had countries that were broadly committed to "Ever Closer Union". Otherwise it will be forever attempting little carve outs.

    I think they would also be wise to make it clear that treaty commitments are treaty commitments. If you can't do the time, don't do the... you know.
    Which countries do you think would prefer the UK's lighter touch? Just Sweden and Denmark? Can't really see the Eastern 6 preferring it without the monetary transfers.
    Well, that's the thing with the Eastern 6. They want:

    - free movement so that their people can remit money home
    - no Euro
    - fiscal transfers from Brussels
    - to do things that are not allowed in the treaties

    And it's their call. They can choose the EU or our lighter touch regime. Or nothing at all. But they don't get to dictate that the rules only apply to them.

    It will be a difficult call for them. Poland is very Atlanticist. I could see them joining with us. Hungary and Czechia, on the other hand, would probably stay with the EU. The Baltics have all joined the Euro, so they've kind of made their decision.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,868
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT:
    Italian Vineyards are hiring machines, as they can’t get the staff.
    https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/21/10/07/1547245/robots-take-over-italys-vineyards-as-wineries-struggle-with-covid-19-worker-shortages

    (Insert “Because of Brexit” joke here).

    Even with unemployment being double what it is in the UK and youth unemployment being over 25%.
    Italian young people live at home, and don't want to work in the fields.

    It's not an uncommon problem in the Western world.
    Looking at European unemployment rates the difference between the Mediterranean countries and Eastern Europe is noticeable:

    Greece 14.6%
    Spain 14.3%
    Italy 9.3%
    France 7.9%

    Bulgaria 5.9%
    Romania 5.1%
    Hungary 4.3%
    Poland 3.4%

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/268830/unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

    Now there's going to be many factors involved but I wonder if that explains why the number of Eastern Europeans working in the UK has been falling but the number of Western Europeans has been increasing.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,677
    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I thought the German Constitutional Court had ruled a couple of times that EU law didn’t have primacy over German Fundamental Law
    That is correct.

    EU law has supremacy over national law only to the extent agreed in the treaties. If the EU claims powers that are not envisaged in its treaties, and which contradict national law (or countries' constitutions), then that it is the duty of national courts to slap the EU down.

    When countries join the EU, they make certain treaty commitments regarding their legal systems, and the maintenance of an independent judiciary. I think there is a good case that Poland (and Hungary) are no longer in compliance with their treaty commitments.

    I would suggest that the solution to this is that Poland and Hungary should cease to be members of the EU. They clearly aren't interested in "the project".

    And I would suggest that the UK should take the lead in creating a lighter-touch, less political free trade area. One that - in the fullness of time - would hopefully have a very close relationship with the EU. One that was about a single currency and political integration, and one that was solely about free trade.

    Done right, I could see a number of non-Eurozone members choose our grouping over the EU. And the EU, stripped of all the complexity of managing two groups of members, who will often have opposing interests.
    But Poles are the ones with the most favourable view of the EU. Why should they leave an organisation that is trying to defend an independent judiciary?

    https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/the-european-union/


    Who would have an unfavourable view of an organisation bunging them £10bn a year?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,526
    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I thought the German Constitutional Court had ruled a couple of times that EU law didn’t have primacy over German Fundamental Law
    That is correct.

    EU law has supremacy over national law only to the extent agreed in the treaties. If the EU claims powers that are not envisaged in its treaties, and which contradict national law (or countries' constitutions), then that it is the duty of national courts to slap the EU down.

    When countries join the EU, they make certain treaty commitments regarding their legal systems, and the maintenance of an independent judiciary. I think there is a good case that Poland (and Hungary) are no longer in compliance with their treaty commitments.

    I would suggest that the solution to this is that Poland and Hungary should cease to be members of the EU. They clearly aren't interested in "the project".

    And I would suggest that the UK should take the lead in creating a lighter-touch, less political free trade area. One that - in the fullness of time - would hopefully have a very close relationship with the EU. One that was about a single currency and political integration, and one that was solely about free trade.

    Done right, I could see a number of non-Eurozone members choose our grouping over the EU. And the EU, stripped of all the complexity of managing two groups of members, who will often have opposing interests.
    But Poles are the ones with the most favourable view of the EU. Why should they leave an organisation that is trying to defend an independent judiciary?

    https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/the-european-union/


    They elected a government with a stated goal of ignoring EU rules.

    You either join a club and abide by its rules, or you don't join the club.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,535
    Rashford comes out against UC cut. Interview on BBC Breakfast tomorrow.

    Government and Sunak in particular about to be hit by the full broadside.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,868


    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    6m
    INDEPENDENT DIGITAL: 60,000 could die from flu this winter #TomorrowsPapersToday

    Is he offering odds ?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,535

    RobD said:


    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    6m
    INDEPENDENT DIGITAL: 60,000 could die from flu this winter #TomorrowsPapersToday

    Could. Bloody hell.
    Thousands die from flu every year. .. but
    critically personal sanitation is a lot better than it was. I think the story is more scary than factually based. We MIGHT get a new Asian flu that might kill.millions....its just speculation.imho.

    It's a plant to get uptake on the vaccine to be honest imho.

    But fair enough, there could be a massive problem if we don't.

    I actually think flu is quite probably going to be a bigger issue for NHS this winter than covid.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,526

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT:
    Italian Vineyards are hiring machines, as they can’t get the staff.
    https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/21/10/07/1547245/robots-take-over-italys-vineyards-as-wineries-struggle-with-covid-19-worker-shortages

    (Insert “Because of Brexit” joke here).

    Even with unemployment being double what it is in the UK and youth unemployment being over 25%.
    Italian young people live at home, and don't want to work in the fields.

    It's not an uncommon problem in the Western world.
    Looking at European unemployment rates the difference between the Mediterranean countries and Eastern Europe is noticeable:

    Greece 14.6%
    Spain 14.3%
    Italy 9.3%
    France 7.9%

    Bulgaria 5.9%
    Romania 5.1%
    Hungary 4.3%
    Poland 3.4%

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/268830/unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

    Now there's going to be many factors involved but I wonder if that explains why the number of Eastern Europeans working in the UK has been falling but the number of Western Europeans has been increasing.
    Well, a lot of those countries unemployment rates are low because all the people of working age left to earn money abroad. The Polish diaspora is much larger than the Greek one.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654
    Pulpstar said:

    Why isnt there a video with the lies of Remain.. just for balance?

    The remain campaign definitely had less lies. The likes of Stuart Rose's frank truths sank it.
    Errrr fewer lies pls # grammar police
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,014
    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    How unlike the ECJ, which is a rigorously independent court with absolutely no vested interest in extending the remit of EU law, and thus its own power, into every corner of national life, and with no desire to enable a truly united Europe

    What fucking cant and bollocks
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,437
    @stocky, @squareroot2,@Pulpstar.
    Completely missed the Super League GF discussion I was tagged in the other morning.
    I agree Saints probably should be slight favourites, given they've been there, done that more than once. Can't make it more than 55-60% though.
    11-5 represents outstanding value for a Catalans win therefore.
    One thing from today. SL Player of the Year Sam Tomkins is in the Dragons 21 after injury.
    IF he plays that is another big plus. He's done it before several times. And against Saints, too.
    The other thing is that means Arthur Mourgue plays somewhere other than full-back. He's a huge, unpredictable young talent who can do almost anything with ball in hand. Except catch a high ball. Which is quite a drawback if he plays full back.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,206
    RobD said:

    TimT said:

    dixiedean said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    Rather ironic we pushed and pushed for expansion eastwards. Then buggered off.
    The UK wanted wider to stop deeper but got wider and deeper.
    I had that exact same thought, then continued it. It was Maggie's long play - set the EU on a path of not just deeper, but wider also, knowing the two were incompatible, then have the UK leave so it could watch from the sidelines as the whole edifice folded.
    The woman was omnipotent. Did she predict Boris shitting on fiscal conservatism, in 79 or 82?
    Who says she isn’t using Boris as a vessel? ;)
    The pellet with the poison’s in the vessel with the pizzle
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,677
    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    How unlike the ECJ, which is a rigorously independent court with absolutely no vested interest in extending the remit of EU law, and thus its own power, into every corner of national life, and with no desire to enable a truly united Europe

    What fucking cant and bollocks
    Doesn’t it even have the express objective to further the European project?
  • kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I thought the German Constitutional Court had ruled a couple of times that EU law didn’t have primacy over German Fundamental Law
    That is correct.

    EU law has supremacy over national law only to the extent agreed in the treaties. If the EU claims powers that are not envisaged in its treaties, and which contradict national law (or countries' constitutions), then that it is the duty of national courts to slap the EU down.

    When countries join the EU, they make certain treaty commitments regarding their legal systems, and the maintenance of an independent judiciary. I think there is a good case that Poland (and Hungary) are no longer in compliance with their treaty commitments.

    I would suggest that the solution to this is that Poland and Hungary should cease to be members of the EU. They clearly aren't interested in "the project".

    And I would suggest that the UK should take the lead in creating a lighter-touch, less political free trade area. One that - in the fullness of time - would hopefully have a very close relationship with the EU. One that was about a single currency and political integration, and one that was solely about free trade.

    Done right, I could see a number of non-Eurozone members choose our grouping over the EU. And the EU, stripped of all the complexity of managing two groups of members, who will often have opposing interests.
    But Poles are the ones with the most favourable view of the EU. Why should they leave an organisation that is trying to defend an independent judiciary?

    https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/the-european-union/


    Who would have an unfavourable view of an organisation bunging them £10bn a year?
    The Scottish government?
    You beat me to it
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,535
    I think flu deaths is normally ≈ 20 - 30K with about 2K - 2.5K peak winter per week.

    So 60K would bd twice. which is a shitstorm for NHS as it currently is.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,677
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I thought the German Constitutional Court had ruled a couple of times that EU law didn’t have primacy over German Fundamental Law
    That is correct.

    EU law has supremacy over national law only to the extent agreed in the treaties. If the EU claims powers that are not envisaged in its treaties, and which contradict national law (or countries' constitutions), then that it is the duty of national courts to slap the EU down.

    When countries join the EU, they make certain treaty commitments regarding their legal systems, and the maintenance of an independent judiciary. I think there is a good case that Poland (and Hungary) are no longer in compliance with their treaty commitments.

    I would suggest that the solution to this is that Poland and Hungary should cease to be members of the EU. They clearly aren't interested in "the project".

    And I would suggest that the UK should take the lead in creating a lighter-touch, less political free trade area. One that - in the fullness of time - would hopefully have a very close relationship with the EU. One that was about a single currency and political integration, and one that was solely about free trade.

    Done right, I could see a number of non-Eurozone members choose our grouping over the EU. And the EU, stripped of all the complexity of managing two groups of members, who will often have opposing interests.
    But Poles are the ones with the most favourable view of the EU. Why should they leave an organisation that is trying to defend an independent judiciary?

    https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/the-european-union/


    Who would have an unfavourable view of an organisation bunging them £10bn a year?
    The Scottish government?
    I think you'll find that it's Scotland that's subsidising the UK to the tune of £10bn a year.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,014
    dixiedean said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    httpLeaving s://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    Rather ironic we pushed and pushed for expansion eastwards. Then buggered off.
    Leaving behind an EU which resolutely speaks English, rather than French, which was the supreme language of the EU when we first joined

    Our entire EU membership can be seen as an act of comical cultural sabotage of the French. No wonder they stole our vaccines
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,677

    I think flu deaths is normally ≈ 20 - 30K with about 2K - 2.5K peak winter per week.

    So 60K would bd twice. which is a shitstorm for NHS as it currently is.

    May I remind you of the accuracy of previous predictions and projections relating to other diseases?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,468
    edited October 7

    Rashford comes out against UC cut. Interview on BBC Breakfast tomorrow.

    Government and Sunak in particular about to be hit by the full broadside.

    Interesting debate between Edwina Currie and Gary Neville on GMB yesterday.

    https://youtu.be/7LwUgsRtSQA

    Overall there is a split on party lines. 50% of Conservative voters want the £20 UC uplift to end next month, just 17% want it to be permanent.

    63% of Labour voters want the UC uplift to be made permanent, only 10% want it to come to an end next month
    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/economy/articles-reports/2021/10/01/britons-want-keep-20-universal-credit-uplift-least
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,526
    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    How unlike the ECJ, which is a rigorously independent court with absolutely no vested interest in extending the remit of EU law, and thus its own power, into every corner of national life, and with no desire to enable a truly united Europe

    What fucking cant and bollocks
    Doesn’t it even have the express objective to further the European project?
    I thought it did. But Googling is not helping me find an actual reference to this, other than a line in a Civitas report about a majority of the ECJ's ruling increasing the power of the EU/EC. (Of course, if we're going to be pedantic, most of the ECJ's rulings are incredibly technical. But of the "real" cases, I'm sure that's completely correct.)
  • RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I thought the German Constitutional Court had ruled a couple of times that EU law didn’t have primacy over German Fundamental Law
    That is correct.

    EU law has supremacy over national law only to the extent agreed in the treaties. If the EU claims powers that are not envisaged in its treaties, and which contradict national law (or countries' constitutions), then that it is the duty of national courts to slap the EU down.

    When countries join the EU, they make certain treaty commitments regarding their legal systems, and the maintenance of an independent judiciary. I think there is a good case that Poland (and Hungary) are no longer in compliance with their treaty commitments.

    I would suggest that the solution to this is that Poland and Hungary should cease to be members of the EU. They clearly aren't interested in "the project".

    And I would suggest that the UK should take the lead in creating a lighter-touch, less political free trade area. One that - in the fullness of time - would hopefully have a very close relationship with the EU. One that was about a single currency and political integration, and one that was solely about free trade.

    Done right, I could see a number of non-Eurozone members choose our grouping over the EU. And the EU, stripped of all the complexity of managing two groups of members, who will often have opposing interests.
    But Poles are the ones with the most favourable view of the EU. Why should they leave an organisation that is trying to defend an independent judiciary?

    https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/the-european-union/


    Who would have an unfavourable view of an organisation bunging them £10bn a year?
    The Scottish government?
    I think you'll find that it's Scotland that's subsidising the UK to the tune of £10bn a year.
    Please provide links to support that. I am genuinely interested how the GERS figures can be that wrong if you are correct.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,757

    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I thought the German Constitutional Court had ruled a couple of times that EU law didn’t have primacy over German Fundamental Law
    That is correct.

    EU law has supremacy over national law only to the extent agreed in the treaties. If the EU claims powers that are not envisaged in its treaties, and which contradict national law (or countries' constitutions), then that it is the duty of national courts to slap the EU down.

    When countries join the EU, they make certain treaty commitments regarding their legal systems, and the maintenance of an independent judiciary. I think there is a good case that Poland (and Hungary) are no longer in compliance with their treaty commitments.

    I would suggest that the solution to this is that Poland and Hungary should cease to be members of the EU. They clearly aren't interested in "the project".

    And I would suggest that the UK should take the lead in creating a lighter-touch, less political free trade area. One that - in the fullness of time - would hopefully have a very close relationship with the EU. One that was about a single currency and political integration, and one that was solely about free trade.

    Done right, I could see a number of non-Eurozone members choose our grouping over the EU. And the EU, stripped of all the complexity of managing two groups of members, who will often have opposing interests.
    But Poles are the ones with the most favourable view of the EU. Why should they leave an organisation that is trying to defend an independent judiciary?

    https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/the-european-union/


    Who would have an unfavourable view of an organisation bunging them £10bn a year?
    The Scottish government?
    I think you'll find that it's Scotland that's subsidising the UK to the tune of £10bn a year.
    Please provide links to support that. I am genuinely interested how the GERS figures can be that wrong if you are correct.
    I have a suspicion RobD was preempting a reply to my jest with that comment.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,890
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I thought the German Constitutional Court had ruled a couple of times that EU law didn’t have primacy over German Fundamental Law
    That is correct.

    EU law has supremacy over national law only to the extent agreed in the treaties. If the EU claims powers that are not envisaged in its treaties, and which contradict national law (or countries' constitutions), then that it is the duty of national courts to slap the EU down.

    When countries join the EU, they make certain treaty commitments regarding their legal systems, and the maintenance of an independent judiciary. I think there is a good case that Poland (and Hungary) are no longer in compliance with their treaty commitments.

    I would suggest that the solution to this is that Poland and Hungary should cease to be members of the EU. They clearly aren't interested in "the project".

    And I would suggest that the UK should take the lead in creating a lighter-touch, less political free trade area. One that - in the fullness of time - would hopefully have a very close relationship with the EU. One that was about a single currency and political integration, and one that was solely about free trade.

    Done right, I could see a number of non-Eurozone members choose our grouping over the EU. And the EU should do better too, when stripped of all the complexity of managing two groups of members, who will often have opposing interests.
    I'm afraid this is LeaverFantasyLand.

    There already a lighter-touch, less political free trade area called EFTA and we chose not to be part of that.

    Why would Poland, for example, choose to align with the UK? Are we going to send them the subsidies or allow them the freedom of movement they get from the EU? No.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,513
    One thing I am not clued up on is the idea of the immune system being weakened over the last 18 months by not being so exposed to pathogens. Lots of people suggesting this, but how true is it? Does the immune system need constant work outs?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,535
    Betting post?




  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,757

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I thought the German Constitutional Court had ruled a couple of times that EU law didn’t have primacy over German Fundamental Law
    That is correct.

    EU law has supremacy over national law only to the extent agreed in the treaties. If the EU claims powers that are not envisaged in its treaties, and which contradict national law (or countries' constitutions), then that it is the duty of national courts to slap the EU down.

    When countries join the EU, they make certain treaty commitments regarding their legal systems, and the maintenance of an independent judiciary. I think there is a good case that Poland (and Hungary) are no longer in compliance with their treaty commitments.

    I would suggest that the solution to this is that Poland and Hungary should cease to be members of the EU. They clearly aren't interested in "the project".

    And I would suggest that the UK should take the lead in creating a lighter-touch, less political free trade area. One that - in the fullness of time - would hopefully have a very close relationship with the EU. One that was about a single currency and political integration, and one that was solely about free trade.

    Done right, I could see a number of non-Eurozone members choose our grouping over the EU. And the EU should do better too, when stripped of all the complexity of managing two groups of members, who will often have opposing interests.
    I'm afraid this is LeaverFantasyLand.
    No it's PB, though perhaps it sometimes appears the same?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,677

    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I thought the German Constitutional Court had ruled a couple of times that EU law didn’t have primacy over German Fundamental Law
    That is correct.

    EU law has supremacy over national law only to the extent agreed in the treaties. If the EU claims powers that are not envisaged in its treaties, and which contradict national law (or countries' constitutions), then that it is the duty of national courts to slap the EU down.

    When countries join the EU, they make certain treaty commitments regarding their legal systems, and the maintenance of an independent judiciary. I think there is a good case that Poland (and Hungary) are no longer in compliance with their treaty commitments.

    I would suggest that the solution to this is that Poland and Hungary should cease to be members of the EU. They clearly aren't interested in "the project".

    And I would suggest that the UK should take the lead in creating a lighter-touch, less political free trade area. One that - in the fullness of time - would hopefully have a very close relationship with the EU. One that was about a single currency and political integration, and one that was solely about free trade.

    Done right, I could see a number of non-Eurozone members choose our grouping over the EU. And the EU, stripped of all the complexity of managing two groups of members, who will often have opposing interests.
    But Poles are the ones with the most favourable view of the EU. Why should they leave an organisation that is trying to defend an independent judiciary?

    https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/the-european-union/


    Who would have an unfavourable view of an organisation bunging them £10bn a year?
    The Scottish government?
    I think you'll find that it's Scotland that's subsidising the UK to the tune of £10bn a year.
    Please provide links to support that. I am genuinely interested how the GERS figures can be that wrong if you are correct.
    I may have omitted an emoji from that post, apologies.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,757

    Betting post?

    Boris has flaws, we all know that, but is not sniffing out a threat to his position one of them?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,014
    RobD said:

    Leon said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    How unlike the ECJ, which is a rigorously independent court with absolutely no vested interest in extending the remit of EU law, and thus its own power, into every corner of national life, and with no desire to enable a truly united Europe

    What fucking cant and bollocks
    Doesn’t it even have the express objective to further the European project?
    Quite possibly

    Buried deep in the EU Constitut, sorry Lisbon Treaty, is a requirement for EU Commissioners to have "an EU vocation" - ie they must be fully committed to Ever Closer Union and a United Europe

    In other words, you can't be part of the rule-making, law-creating part of the EU government if you are eurosceptic.

    Of course that makes sense if your absolute intent is to create a United States of Europe, but it is a democratic outrage if you are a country with wide eurosceptic sentiment. Half of your people - or whatever - can never be in the government. Not allowed

    We were always going to exit, in the end. It seems others may follow, eventually. The EU shit is hitting the fan of the nation-state, the disbelief can no longer be suspended, the dream no longer sustained. Hard choices await
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,437
    edited October 7

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I thought the German Constitutional Court had ruled a couple of times that EU law didn’t have primacy over German Fundamental Law
    That is correct.

    EU law has supremacy over national law only to the extent agreed in the treaties. If the EU claims powers that are not envisaged in its treaties, and which contradict national law (or countries' constitutions), then that it is the duty of national courts to slap the EU down.

    When countries join the EU, they make certain treaty commitments regarding their legal systems, and the maintenance of an independent judiciary. I think there is a good case that Poland (and Hungary) are no longer in compliance with their treaty commitments.

    I would suggest that the solution to this is that Poland and Hungary should cease to be members of the EU. They clearly aren't interested in "the project".

    And I would suggest that the UK should take the lead in creating a lighter-touch, less political free trade area. One that - in the fullness of time - would hopefully have a very close relationship with the EU. One that was about a single currency and political integration, and one that was solely about free trade.

    Done right, I could see a number of non-Eurozone members choose our grouping over the EU. And the EU should do better too, when stripped of all the complexity of managing two groups of members, who will often have opposing interests.
    I'm afraid this is LeaverFantasyLand.

    There already a lighter-touch, less political free trade area called EFTA and we chose not to be part of that.

    Why would Poland, for example, choose to align with the UK? Are we going to send them the subsidies or allow them the freedom of movement they get from the EU? No.
    Yep. They correctly foresaw 10 001 of the last one countries to leave the EU.
    That nation A, B, C, right through to Z is leaving any moment now is a trope akin to the day of rapture is nigh.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,890

    One thing I am not clued up on is the idea of the immune system being weakened over the last 18 months by not being so exposed to pathogens. Lots of people suggesting this, but how true is it? Does the immune system need constant work outs?

    With flu isn't it simply the case that the virus is continually mutating, therefore the longer you go without being in contact the latest flu variants the more likely you are to encounter a markedly different variety and the less beneficial your previously acquired immune response will be?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 7,197

    It's starting to feel like Johnson's speech has bombed.

    But it will make no difference as he has framed the next election.

    Only the forthcoming economic shitstorm can unseat him now.

    Curiously, Boris's speech was better received on the Left (typical Boris but set the right tone) than on the Right (economic and political disaster area). Ultimately though I think Boris will prevail. What's left of the Thatcherite consensus will whither and die.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,551

    One thing I am not clued up on is the idea of the immune system being weakened over the last 18 months by not being so exposed to pathogens. Lots of people suggesting this, but how true is it? Does the immune system need constant work outs?

    It is more that several infectious viruses that have been held at bay will hit simultaneously.

    Covid will still be the big one. It is a long time in ICU, typically 3 weeks. A cardiac surgery or similar is usually out the next day, or day two. A covid case postpones a dozen major surgeries.

    Flu cases are only a couple of days in ICU, if they get there at all.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,437

    One thing I am not clued up on is the idea of the immune system being weakened over the last 18 months by not being so exposed to pathogens. Lots of people suggesting this, but how true is it? Does the immune system need constant work outs?

    Dunno. But I was slain by a very mild cold for two weeks.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,468

    It's starting to feel like Johnson's speech has bombed.

    But it will make no difference as he has framed the next election.

    Only the forthcoming economic shitstorm can unseat him now.

    Curiously, Boris's speech was better received on the Left (typical Boris but set the right tone) than on the Right (economic and political disaster area). Ultimately though I think Boris will prevail. What's left of the Thatcherite consensus will whither and die.
    The last bit of Thatcherism Boris and Sunak are currently pursuing is to end the UC and welfare uplift.

    If Boris caves into the left on that too then fiscal conservatives will go beserk (personally I would keep the uplift for a few months through the winter and end it in the Spring if unemployment remains low)
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,880
    Well I’ve had a few shandys on the #cans

    What a day
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,880
    Absolute carnage round st james park
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,868
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT:
    Italian Vineyards are hiring machines, as they can’t get the staff.
    https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/21/10/07/1547245/robots-take-over-italys-vineyards-as-wineries-struggle-with-covid-19-worker-shortages

    (Insert “Because of Brexit” joke here).

    Even with unemployment being double what it is in the UK and youth unemployment being over 25%.
    Italian young people live at home, and don't want to work in the fields.

    It's not an uncommon problem in the Western world.
    Looking at European unemployment rates the difference between the Mediterranean countries and Eastern Europe is noticeable:

    Greece 14.6%
    Spain 14.3%
    Italy 9.3%
    France 7.9%

    Bulgaria 5.9%
    Romania 5.1%
    Hungary 4.3%
    Poland 3.4%

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/268830/unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

    Now there's going to be many factors involved but I wonder if that explains why the number of Eastern Europeans working in the UK has been falling but the number of Western Europeans has been increasing.
    Well, a lot of those countries unemployment rates are low because all the people of working age left to earn money abroad. The Polish diaspora is much larger than the Greek one.
    Sure, that one of the factors I referred to.

    But I am curious that the number of Western Europeans working in the UK continues to increase - who they are and where they are working I'd like to know. They're obviously not working on farms or washing cars.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,513
    Foxy said:

    One thing I am not clued up on is the idea of the immune system being weakened over the last 18 months by not being so exposed to pathogens. Lots of people suggesting this, but how true is it? Does the immune system need constant work outs?

    It is more that several infectious viruses that have been held at bay will hit simultaneously.

    Covid will still be the big one. It is a long time in ICU, typically 3 weeks. A cardiac surgery or similar is usually out the next day, or day two. A covid case postpones a dozen major surgeries.

    Flu cases are only a couple of days in ICU, if they get there at all.
    So not actually more susceptible but just arriving concurrently. Cheers
This discussion has been closed.