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Remember this from the 2016 referendum campaign? – politicalbetting.com

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  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,979
    Went to my local BP garage at 6.45am this morning - zero queue and petrol all available, but still restricted to 20 litres each. He said that'd go next week.

    It's fizzling out.
  • CR - things I love about England:
    Sense of humour - eg Peter Kay, Peep Show, the Fast Show, Yes Minister
    Music - eg the Beatles, the Stone Roses, Rolling Stones, Amy Winehouse
    Literature - Shakespeare, Orwell, Greene
    Ability to absorb other cultures - British Asian food, Black British music from Two Tone to Grime, Jewish humour
    Countryside - beaches of Cornwall, Yorkshire Dales, Lake District, Kent
    London - greatest city on earth
    My English wife and kids and parents
    The England football team
    Dissenting spirit - the Tolpuddle martyrs, peasant revolt, Greenham Common, Kinder Scout trespass, Battle of Cable Street
    Taking the piss

    What about right-leaning posters? I sometimes get the impression with you guys that you love England in principle but not in practice.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,979

    Foxy said:

    I'd like to hear what some of our liberal-left regulars love about England?

    It would be nice to find some common ground.

    I love its niche sub-cultures.

    I am not a scooterist, but seeing the scooter festival on the Isle of Wight in all its eccentricity in August is a real pleasure.
    But that is not a typically English attribute. All nations have niche sub-cultures. It is pretty much a prerequisite to being defined as a nation: a richness of texture.

    The raggarbil sub-culture of Värmland, Dalarna etc is just as eccentric, and is also valued by other Swedes who would never dream of taking part themselves.

    I do not self-define as left, although I do as liberal, and I could list lots of things that I love about England. But I don’t think Casino Royale was inviting external contributions from non-English posters.
    Try me.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,979
    Foxy said:

    FF43 said:

    It's starting to feel like Johnson's speech has bombed.

    But it will make no difference as he has framed the next election.

    Only the forthcoming economic shitstorm can unseat him now.

    Curiously, Boris's speech was better received on the Left (typical Boris but set the right tone) than on the Right (economic and political disaster area). Ultimately though I think Boris will prevail. What's left of the Thatcherite consensus will whither and die.
    It finally struck home this week. The Conservative Party is no more, except in name. It's the Boris Party. If you are a Conservative with values that match, you might well mourn the loss.
    Yes, there is no party for the fiscally sane or pro-business. Just a party of those who love the taste of Johnsons shoe polish.
    There was and you still decided to abandon it in 2012 as you threw a strop over Lansley's NHS reforms and the prospective junior doctor contract changes. Think you were happy about the pension changes for consultants so they weren't disincentivised to continue working though.

    Interests. Always interests.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,979

    CR - things I love about England:
    Sense of humour - eg Peter Kay, Peep Show, the Fast Show, Yes Minister
    Music - eg the Beatles, the Stone Roses, Rolling Stones, Amy Winehouse
    Literature - Shakespeare, Orwell, Greene
    Ability to absorb other cultures - British Asian food, Black British music from Two Tone to Grime, Jewish humour
    Countryside - beaches of Cornwall, Yorkshire Dales, Lake District, Kent
    London - greatest city on earth
    My English wife and kids and parents
    The England football team
    Dissenting spirit - the Tolpuddle martyrs, peasant revolt, Greenham Common, Kinder Scout trespass, Battle of Cable Street
    Taking the piss

    What about right-leaning posters? I sometimes get the impression with you guys that you love England in principle but not in practice.

    Thanks. Interesting list.

    I will respond later.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    RobD said:


    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    6m
    INDEPENDENT DIGITAL: 60,000 could die from flu this winter #TomorrowsPapersToday

    Could. Bloody hell.
    Thousands die from flu every year. .. but
    critically personal sanitation is a lot better than it was. I think the story is more scary than factually based. We MIGHT get a new Asian flu that might kill.millions....its just speculation.imho.

    My flu jab this year was a quadrivalent.

    Which means they don’t have a clue what is coming…
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I thought the German Constitutional Court had ruled a couple of times that EU law didn’t have primacy over German Fundamental Law
    That is correct.

    EU law has supremacy over national law only to the extent agreed in the treaties. If the EU claims powers that are not envisaged in its treaties, and which contradict national law (or countries' constitutions), then that it is the duty of national courts to slap the EU down.

    When countries join the EU, they make certain treaty commitments regarding their legal systems, and the maintenance of an independent judiciary. I think there is a good case that Poland (and Hungary) are no longer in compliance with their treaty commitments.

    I would suggest that the solution to this is that Poland and Hungary should cease to be members of the EU. They clearly aren't interested in "the project".

    And I would suggest that the UK should take the lead in creating a lighter-touch, less political free trade area. One that - in the fullness of time - would hopefully have a very close relationship with the EU. One that was about a single currency and political integration, and one that was solely about free trade.

    Done right, I could see a number of non-Eurozone members choose our grouping over the EU. And the EU, stripped of all the complexity of managing two groups of members, who will often have opposing interests.
    But Poles are the ones with the most favourable view of the EU. Why should they leave an organisation that is trying to defend an independent judiciary?

    https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/the-european-union/


    They elected a government with a stated goal of ignoring EU rules.

    You either join a club and abide by its rules, or you don't join the club.
    I don’t know.

    Joining a club but ignoring its rules when you want to sounds pretty rational if you can get away with it
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,106

    Went to my local BP garage at 6.45am this morning - zero queue and petrol all available, but still restricted to 20 litres each. He said that'd go next week.

    It's fizzling out.

    Alas not yet over in Sussex. Filling stations still running out sporadically. Queues still long.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Rashford comes out against UC cut. Interview on BBC Breakfast tomorrow.

    Government and Sunak in particular about to be hit by the full broadside.

    I hear Graham Stringer is going to defect.

    May be he should stand in the by-election?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,106
    edited October 2021
    This week confirmed that Boris is doing to the Conservatives what Trump has done to the republicans.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,803
    edited October 2021
    The challenges facing "Zero COVID" nations exiting that strategy:

    Lawrence Wong, Singapore’s finance minister and a chair of the country’s Covid-19 task force, said the lesson for “Covid-naive societies” like Singapore, New Zealand and Australia is to be ready for large waves of infections, “regardless of the vaccine coverage.”

    “Once you open up, more social interactions will happen,” he said. “And given the inherently highly transmissible nature of the Delta variant, you will get big clusters emerging.”

    The vaccines have worked to keep most of the population out of the hospital, with 98.4 percent of cases presenting mild or no symptoms. The deaths have occurred mostly in seniors, usually with comorbidities, and account for 0.2 percent of the cases over the past 28 days.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/08/world/asia/singapore-vaccine-covid.html?smid=tw-share

    Friends in Singapore think the government has over-reacted, with no pressure on ICU capacity. They are reacting to the wrong metric.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 33,478
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    To lose lose one member in a decade is a little careless. To lose two is existential, as the rats leave the sinking ship.
    Actually, I don't think that's true at all.

    I think the EU would be a lot better off it only had countries that were broadly committed to "Ever Closer Union". Otherwise it will be forever attempting little carve outs.

    I think they would also be wise to make it clear that treaty commitments are treaty commitments. If you can't do the time, don't do the... you know.
    I can see the logic of where you're coming from however without the laggard members the rest would actually have to do it and one by one they'd all do what France and the Netherlands did when it was time to shit or get off the pot. The people of Europe don't want a United States of Europe. It's an incredibly unpopular idea for the EU to become a country and for countries to become states within it. The political will probably exists at the very top to make it happen but the people loathe the idea of their countries becomes regional outposts of Brussels. Time and again the people have pushed back and when it comes down to it the French people would put someone like Zemmour or Le Pen into office if they was the only candidates who said no to the USE (and he wouldn't be because the likes of Macron aren't idiotic and would also pull back from it knowing how unpopular it would be).

    From there who knows what happens? I don't see a scenario where the EU ever becomes a country, it would mean France, Italy, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Greece and maybe even Germany voting against the idea. Ordinary people love their national identity far, far too much to let it be subsumed by the EU. Imagine trying to tell a French person that after the USE that they would no longer be equal with the UK, reduced to mere statehood. It would be a national humiliation any politician who suggested it wild quickly find themselves hanging from a tree.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    One thing I am not clued up on is the idea of the immune system being weakened over the last 18 months by not being so exposed to pathogens. Lots of people suggesting this, but how true is it? Does the immune system need constant work outs?

    Flu mutates every year so you need exposure to it.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,906
    Nigelb said:

    TimT said:

    One thing I am not clued up on is the idea of the immune system being weakened over the last 18 months by not being so exposed to pathogens. Lots of people suggesting this, but how true is it? Does the immune system need constant work outs?

    With flu isn't it simply the case that the virus is continually mutating, therefore the longer you go without being in contact the latest flu variants the more likely you are to encounter a markedly different variety and the less beneficial your previously acquired immune response will be?
    No, actually. That would be more true for viruses with more continuous evolutionary paths, like coronaviruses. Flus have that, but the major thing is that they completely flip the H and N proteins between multiple versions of each. So evolution of phenotype is not smooth, but jumps from one to the other. That is why exposure to last year's flu does not confer protection against this year's.

    So with flu, the key is not whether this year's flu is similar to last year's, but whether the H and N proteins have been seen in a generation or not.
    The rate of flu vaccination in the over 60s is also likely to be higher than normal, I think ?
    The problem though is anticipating the flu strain. We normally get 6 months notice because we see what the Australians get in their winter, but not this year.
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,847
    Charles said:

    Rashford comes out against UC cut. Interview on BBC Breakfast tomorrow.

    Government and Sunak in particular about to be hit by the full broadside.

    I hear Graham Stringer is going to defect.

    May be he should stand in the by-election?
    I thought that was old and dead news. Has there been a change?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 36,111

    Went to my local BP garage at 6.45am this morning - zero queue and petrol all available, but still restricted to 20 litres each. He said that'd go next week.

    It's fizzling out.

    That’ll be because there isn’t actually a shortage of petrol, and people aren’t doing any more driving (except at the margins, driving around looking for petrol!), so once everyone has a full tank things quickly get back to normal.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,106
    edited October 2021
    England

    London
    The Coast (Sussex, Cornwall, Norfolk)
    The Hills (The downs, Cumbria, Yorkshire, Peaks)

    Democracy
    Social Liberalism and Standing up for the underdog
    radicalism (NHS)

    Creativity (music, art, theatre, comedy, BBC)
    Engineering and Science
    History (cathedrals, museums, architecture)
    Sport

    ….
  • TazTaz Posts: 3,115
    Charles said:

    Rashford comes out against UC cut. Interview on BBC Breakfast tomorrow.

    Government and Sunak in particular about to be hit by the full broadside.

    I hear Graham Stringer is going to defect.

    May be he should stand in the by-election?
    Here's the link from the BBC website to Saint Marcus's latest BBC Breakfast appearance, for those who are interested.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-58833429
  • Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    httpLeaving s://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    Rather ironic we pushed and pushed for expansion eastwards. Then buggered off.
    Leaving behind an EU which resolutely speaks English, rather than French, which was the supreme language of the EU when we first joined

    Our entire EU membership can be seen as an act of comical cultural sabotage of the French. No wonder they stole our vaccines
    Fuck's sake get over the French already. Jesus.
    The French obsession exhibited by certain PBers is a weird infatuation, as if they were denied French citizenship in their formative years, and have never got over it.
    More like a sibling rivalry.
    Indeed. The reason the French infuriate the English is because they are so similar. And vice versa.

    Arrogance
    Entitlement
    Hypocrisy
    Faux rage
    Sneakiness
    Unreliability
    Delusions of grandeur
    Bullying
    Condescending

    Peas in a pod.
    Ah yes, another English expert speaking from his home in Sweden. ;)

    Besides, I don't really see that list being true of either the English or the French. Or, at least, they're applicable in various ways to most countries, in that they're common aspects of human nature.
    Breaking news: the French and the English are human beings.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 36,111
    Taz said:

    Charles said:

    Rashford comes out against UC cut. Interview on BBC Breakfast tomorrow.

    Government and Sunak in particular about to be hit by the full broadside.

    I hear Graham Stringer is going to defect.

    May be he should stand in the by-election?
    Here's the link from the BBC website to Saint Marcus's latest BBC Breakfast appearance, for those who are interested.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-58833429
    Does he have an opinion on how the £6bn of public spending he’s advocating, should be raised?
  • TazTaz Posts: 3,115
    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Charles said:

    Rashford comes out against UC cut. Interview on BBC Breakfast tomorrow.

    Government and Sunak in particular about to be hit by the full broadside.

    I hear Graham Stringer is going to defect.

    May be he should stand in the by-election?
    Here's the link from the BBC website to Saint Marcus's latest BBC Breakfast appearance, for those who are interested.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-58833429
    Does he have an opinion on how the £6bn of public spending he’s advocating, should be raised?
    Taxing the bankers bonuses ?

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 33,478
    Interesting to see that Ireland has very quietly announced that it is raising corporation tax to 15% in 2023 to align with Biden's global minimum tax initiative.

    I do wonder how the parasite countries will keep going with the "taxed in country of business" rules because it means Apple UK paying UK corporation tax rather than whatever 0.1% deal they have with Ireland.
  • eekeek Posts: 17,737
    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Charles said:

    Rashford comes out against UC cut. Interview on BBC Breakfast tomorrow.

    Government and Sunak in particular about to be hit by the full broadside.

    I hear Graham Stringer is going to defect.

    May be he should stand in the by-election?
    Here's the link from the BBC website to Saint Marcus's latest BBC Breakfast appearance, for those who are interested.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-58833429
    Does he have an opinion on how the £6bn of public spending he’s advocating, should be raised?
    Nope, but that’s not his problem.

    The worrying thing for the government is that the working poor now have a champion who gets airtime
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,906
    MaxPB said:

    Interesting to see that Ireland has very quietly announced that it is raising corporation tax to 15% in 2023 to align with Biden's global minimum tax initiative.

    I do wonder how the parasite countries will keep going with the "taxed in country of business" rules because it means Apple UK paying UK corporation tax rather than whatever 0.1% deal they have with Ireland.

    Well done Mr Biden.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 27,150

    Leon said:

    dixiedean said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    httpLeaving s://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    Rather ironic we pushed and pushed for expansion eastwards. Then buggered off.
    Leaving behind an EU which resolutely speaks English, rather than French, which was the supreme language of the EU when we first joined

    Our entire EU membership can be seen as an act of comical cultural sabotage of the French. No wonder they stole our vaccines
    Fuck's sake get over the French already. Jesus.
    The French obsession exhibited by certain PBers is a weird infatuation, as if they were denied French citizenship in their formative years, and have never got over it.
    More like a sibling rivalry.
    Indeed. The reason the French infuriate the English is because they are so similar. And vice versa.

    Arrogance
    Entitlement
    Hypocrisy
    Faux rage
    Sneakiness
    Unreliability
    Delusions of grandeur
    Bullying
    Condescending

    Peas in a pod.
    Ah yes, another English expert speaking from his home in Sweden. ;)

    Besides, I don't really see that list being true of either the English or the French. Or, at least, they're applicable in various ways to most countries, in that they're common aspects of human nature.
    Breaking news: the French and the English are human beings.
    Wow. I never knew that. I thought we were Homo Superior... ;)

    But seriously, so you accept that your list of negatives might apply equally to ... oh, let's pick a nation at random... Scotland?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,979

    Things I love about England (not as a lefty, but perhaps as a liberal):

    I cannot define any particular reason, and there are things that I don't particularly like about it. However, it is my home. I feel happy here, in any part of it. England is like a comfort blanket, warm and pleasant. Whenever I've travelled elsewhere, I find myself thinking of home.

    I could point to our rich history, that lays over the land like a tapestry. But other countries have just as much of that, if not more. I could point to the friendliness of the people, but most countries have that as well, if you approach as a friend. I could point out the fact we punch above our weight: but other countries do that as well. I could point out that I love exploring it by foot, seeking out unusual nooks and crannies. But other countries would offer that as well.

    I just love England (and, also the UK - I have a fond affinity for Scotland; for some reason, less so for Wales or NI).

    It is, and always will be, my home.

    Yes, I feel much the same.

    I think it has to start with a love of its physicality - its geography, topography, and features; its sense of place. To that I could add all its human-added features on top: pubs, churches, thatched cottages, vernacular architecture, the beauty of its groomed gardens, postboxes and post offices, and roadsigns, the patchwork quilt of farmed arable land, the hedgerows, the network of footpaths and byways, its lush deciduous woods, its chalk rivers, the echoes of familiar wildlife, and its deep rich and multilayered history going back well over 1,000 years - and more. You know you're part of something strong, timeless, stable and deep-rooted. Safe.

    When I fly back to the UK and see the white cliffs underneath the plane as I cross the channel I get the same feeling I do as when I go to my mum and dad's for Christmas - it's the warm familiarity and pleasantly cocooned feeling of being back home. And it's marvellous.
  • eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Charles said:

    Rashford comes out against UC cut. Interview on BBC Breakfast tomorrow.

    Government and Sunak in particular about to be hit by the full broadside.

    I hear Graham Stringer is going to defect.

    May be he should stand in the by-election?
    Here's the link from the BBC website to Saint Marcus's latest BBC Breakfast appearance, for those who are interested.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-58833429
    Does he have an opinion on how the £6bn of public spending he’s advocating, should be raised?
    Nope, but that’s not his problem.

    The worrying thing for the government is that the working poor now have a champion who gets airtime
    The relief for the government is that champion is a footballer and not a rival politician.

    When is Labour going to find a Rashford? Instead of Keir Mogadon Starmer?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,906
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Charles said:

    Rashford comes out against UC cut. Interview on BBC Breakfast tomorrow.

    Government and Sunak in particular about to be hit by the full broadside.

    I hear Graham Stringer is going to defect.

    May be he should stand in the by-election?
    Here's the link from the BBC website to Saint Marcus's latest BBC Breakfast appearance, for those who are interested.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-58833429
    Does he have an opinion on how the £6bn of public spending he’s advocating, should be raised?
    Nope, but that’s not his problem.

    The worrying thing for the government is that the working poor now have a champion who gets airtime
    Starmer looking increasingly relaxed on BBC Breakfast too:

    "You don't turn on the poorest as you come out of a pandemic."

    Labour leader, Sir Keir Starmer talks to #BBCBreakfast after Marcus Rashford criticised the government for bringing an end to the temporary £20 increase to universal credit.

    More here: https://t.co/ZzmUGPA9gH https://t.co/ogPwcMyjaO
  • Graham Stringer? A Tory MP? Great! He is 71 though so probably not standing next time. Any of his younger more angry colleagues want to join him?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,106
    Things that hold England back

    Class and inequality
    Poverty
    Short termism
    Underinvestment in utilities and infrastructure (roads, rails)
    Weird legacy ideological gimmicks (fake energy markets)
    Nostalgia
    Housing (and private rental in particular)
    Talent sucked into banking rather than productive economy
    Neglected towns
    Legacy print media and commentators.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,686

    Things I love about England (not as a lefty, but perhaps as a liberal):

    I cannot define any particular reason, and there are things that I don't particularly like about it. However, it is my home. I feel happy here, in any part of it. England is like a comfort blanket, warm and pleasant. Whenever I've travelled elsewhere, I find myself thinking of home.

    I could point to our rich history, that lays over the land like a tapestry. But other countries have just as much of that, if not more. I could point to the friendliness of the people, but most countries have that as well, if you approach as a friend. I could point out the fact we punch above our weight: but other countries do that as well. I could point out that I love exploring it by foot, seeking out unusual nooks and crannies. But other countries would offer that as well.

    I just love England (and, also the UK - I have a fond affinity for Scotland; for some reason, less so for Wales or NI).

    It is, and always will be, my home.

    Having seen large parts of the planet, I think England is like Baby Bear's porridge - it's not too hot, not too cold - it's just right.

    Any adventure abroad is perfectly rounded off by coming home here.

    And they speak English, damn it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 35,353
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimT said:

    One thing I am not clued up on is the idea of the immune system being weakened over the last 18 months by not being so exposed to pathogens. Lots of people suggesting this, but how true is it? Does the immune system need constant work outs?

    With flu isn't it simply the case that the virus is continually mutating, therefore the longer you go without being in contact the latest flu variants the more likely you are to encounter a markedly different variety and the less beneficial your previously acquired immune response will be?
    No, actually. That would be more true for viruses with more continuous evolutionary paths, like coronaviruses. Flus have that, but the major thing is that they completely flip the H and N proteins between multiple versions of each. So evolution of phenotype is not smooth, but jumps from one to the other. That is why exposure to last year's flu does not confer protection against this year's.

    So with flu, the key is not whether this year's flu is similar to last year's, but whether the H and N proteins have been seen in a generation or not.
    The rate of flu vaccination in the over 60s is also likely to be higher than normal, I think ?
    The problem though is anticipating the flu strain. We normally get 6 months notice because we see what the Australians get in their winter, but not this year.
    Understood, which is why the 60k worst case estimate is not ridiculous - equally the numbers could be abnormally low.
  • TazTaz Posts: 3,115
    Meat consumption has fallen in the last 10 years by 17%.

    Although this is not anywhere near enough for the National Food Strategy which seems to have endorsements from various celebrity chefs and Quangocrats.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58831636
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,686

    Graham Stringer? A Tory MP? Great! He is 71 though so probably not standing next time. Any of his younger more angry colleagues want to join him?

    Could he be an outrider for Andy Burnham to do the same?
  • Taz said:

    Meat consumption has fallen in the last 10 years by 17%.

    Although this is not anywhere near enough for the National Food Strategy which seems to have endorsements from various celebrity chefs and Quangocrats.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58831636

    That's a shame to see such a big contraction in meat consumption and I will ensure I do my bit to keep the rate up.

    F**k the vegan extremists infiltrating 'science' for their own agenda.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 35,353

    Things I love about England (not as a lefty, but perhaps as a liberal):

    I cannot define any particular reason, and there are things that I don't particularly like about it. However, it is my home. I feel happy here, in any part of it. England is like a comfort blanket, warm and pleasant. Whenever I've travelled elsewhere, I find myself thinking of home.

    I could point to our rich history, that lays over the land like a tapestry. But other countries have just as much of that, if not more. I could point to the friendliness of the people, but most countries have that as well, if you approach as a friend. I could point out the fact we punch above our weight: but other countries do that as well. I could point out that I love exploring it by foot, seeking out unusual nooks and crannies. But other countries would offer that as well.

    I just love England (and, also the UK - I have a fond affinity for Scotland; for some reason, less so for Wales or NI).

    It is, and always will be, my home.

    One thing I like (contrast with the US, for example) is that it's still possible for those on the right and left to talk with each other in a semi rational manner.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 4,616
    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    Spot on. If the EU has primacy it can act; if it doesn't it is a busted flush.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 27,150

    Things I love about England (not as a lefty, but perhaps as a liberal):

    I cannot define any particular reason, and there are things that I don't particularly like about it. However, it is my home. I feel happy here, in any part of it. England is like a comfort blanket, warm and pleasant. Whenever I've travelled elsewhere, I find myself thinking of home.

    I could point to our rich history, that lays over the land like a tapestry. But other countries have just as much of that, if not more. I could point to the friendliness of the people, but most countries have that as well, if you approach as a friend. I could point out the fact we punch above our weight: but other countries do that as well. I could point out that I love exploring it by foot, seeking out unusual nooks and crannies. But other countries would offer that as well.

    I just love England (and, also the UK - I have a fond affinity for Scotland; for some reason, less so for Wales or NI).

    It is, and always will be, my home.

    Having seen large parts of the planet, I think England is like Baby Bear's porridge - it's not too hot, not too cold - it's just right.

    Any adventure abroad is perfectly rounded off by coming home here.

    And they speak English, damn it.
    Actually, that's one thing I'd mention about the UK: the climate. I hate being too warm; heat just doesn't suit me. And whilst cold never used to bother me, when I passed forty, I started feeling it in my bones.

    The UK's climate is just about right. We don't particularly get the extremes of hot, cold, wind or rain that other countries do. And that suits me fine.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 35,353

    Things I love about England (not as a lefty, but perhaps as a liberal):

    I cannot define any particular reason, and there are things that I don't particularly like about it. However, it is my home. I feel happy here, in any part of it. England is like a comfort blanket, warm and pleasant. Whenever I've travelled elsewhere, I find myself thinking of home.

    I could point to our rich history, that lays over the land like a tapestry. But other countries have just as much of that, if not more. I could point to the friendliness of the people, but most countries have that as well, if you approach as a friend. I could point out the fact we punch above our weight: but other countries do that as well. I could point out that I love exploring it by foot, seeking out unusual nooks and crannies. But other countries would offer that as well.

    I just love England (and, also the UK - I have a fond affinity for Scotland; for some reason, less so for Wales or NI).

    It is, and always will be, my home.

    Having seen large parts of the planet, I think England is like Baby Bear's porridge - it's not too hot, not too cold - it's just right.

    Any adventure abroad is perfectly rounded off by coming home here.

    And they speak English, damn it.
    So does everyone else, almost.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,803

    Things I love about England (not as a lefty, but perhaps as a liberal):

    I cannot define any particular reason, and there are things that I don't particularly like about it. However, it is my home. I feel happy here, in any part of it. England is like a comfort blanket, warm and pleasant. Whenever I've travelled elsewhere, I find myself thinking of home.

    I could point to our rich history, that lays over the land like a tapestry. But other countries have just as much of that, if not more. I could point to the friendliness of the people, but most countries have that as well, if you approach as a friend. I could point out the fact we punch above our weight: but other countries do that as well. I could point out that I love exploring it by foot, seeking out unusual nooks and crannies. But other countries would offer that as well.

    I just love England (and, also the UK - I have a fond affinity for Scotland; for some reason, less so for Wales or NI).

    It is, and always will be, my home.

    Yes, I feel much the same.

    I think it has to start with a love of its physicality - its geography, topography, and features; its sense of place. To that I could add all its human-added features on top: pubs, churches, thatched cottages, vernacular architecture, the beauty of its groomed gardens, postboxes and post offices, and roadsigns, the patchwork quilt of farmed arable land, the hedgerows, the network of footpaths and byways, its lush deciduous woods, its chalk rivers, the echoes of familiar wildlife, and its deep rich and multilayered history going back well over 1,000 years - and more. You know you're part of something strong, timeless, stable and deep-rooted. Safe.

    When I fly back to the UK and see the white cliffs underneath the plane as I cross the channel I get the same feeling I do as when I go to my mum and dad's for Christmas - it's the warm familiarity and pleasantly cocooned feeling of being back home. And it's marvellous.
    I once travelled up the ECML to Newcastle listening to a Texan astonished at the variety of countryside and scenery.
  • I love England because it is where I am from. For all its faults and failures, it is my family in a way that nowhere else could ever be. I am invested in it like nowhere else on earth. Although there are many other places for which I have very deep affection they can never be a part of me like England is.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,778
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Jessop, I'd prefer it to be a bit cooler, but the weather's pretty good. I remember a Portuguese dentist saying she much preferred it here.
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,847
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimT said:

    One thing I am not clued up on is the idea of the immune system being weakened over the last 18 months by not being so exposed to pathogens. Lots of people suggesting this, but how true is it? Does the immune system need constant work outs?

    With flu isn't it simply the case that the virus is continually mutating, therefore the longer you go without being in contact the latest flu variants the more likely you are to encounter a markedly different variety and the less beneficial your previously acquired immune response will be?
    No, actually. That would be more true for viruses with more continuous evolutionary paths, like coronaviruses. Flus have that, but the major thing is that they completely flip the H and N proteins between multiple versions of each. So evolution of phenotype is not smooth, but jumps from one to the other. That is why exposure to last year's flu does not confer protection against this year's.

    So with flu, the key is not whether this year's flu is similar to last year's, but whether the H and N proteins have been seen in a generation or not.
    The rate of flu vaccination in the over 60s is also likely to be higher than normal, I think ?
    The problem though is anticipating the flu strain. We normally get 6 months notice because we see what the Australians get in their winter, but not this year.
    Understood, which is why the 60k worst case estimate is not ridiculous - equally the numbers could be abnormally low.
    I think the Uk mistake is the abandonment of masks - here in Spain they remain completely compulsory in shps, offices, etc. Although not perfect they will prevent a lot of infections imho.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,979
    Nigelb said:

    Things I love about England (not as a lefty, but perhaps as a liberal):

    I cannot define any particular reason, and there are things that I don't particularly like about it. However, it is my home. I feel happy here, in any part of it. England is like a comfort blanket, warm and pleasant. Whenever I've travelled elsewhere, I find myself thinking of home.

    I could point to our rich history, that lays over the land like a tapestry. But other countries have just as much of that, if not more. I could point to the friendliness of the people, but most countries have that as well, if you approach as a friend. I could point out the fact we punch above our weight: but other countries do that as well. I could point out that I love exploring it by foot, seeking out unusual nooks and crannies. But other countries would offer that as well.

    I just love England (and, also the UK - I have a fond affinity for Scotland; for some reason, less so for Wales or NI).

    It is, and always will be, my home.

    One thing I like (contrast with the US, for example) is that it's still possible for those on the right and left to talk with each other in a semi rational manner.
    Yes, I'd agree with that. Not on social media though.

    On a 1:1 basis I can have a reasonable discussion with anyone - often it starts a bit tense though, and I can tell those who've been in social media echo chambers as they start off by broadcasting axioms as absolute truths and you have to gradually break it down.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,686

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Jessop, I'd prefer it to be a bit cooler

    Take your hat and coat off in summer then.....
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 18,634
    Taz said:

    Here's the link from the BBC website to Saint Marcus's latest BBC Breakfast appearance, for those who are interested.

    That's Doctor Saint Marcus
  • TazTaz Posts: 3,115

    Taz said:

    Meat consumption has fallen in the last 10 years by 17%.

    Although this is not anywhere near enough for the National Food Strategy which seems to have endorsements from various celebrity chefs and Quangocrats.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58831636

    That's a shame to see such a big contraction in meat consumption and I will ensure I do my bit to keep the rate up.

    F**k the vegan extremists infiltrating 'science' for their own agenda.
    You just know a Meat Tax is coming too and further taxes. All from Boris's chum, Henry Dimbleby.

    https://www.thegrocer.co.uk/health/what-henry-dimblebys-national-food-strategy-means-for-food-businesses/657992.article

    The team all are cut from the same cloth too.

    https://www.nationalfoodstrategy.org/team-2021/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 35,353

    Taz said:

    Meat consumption has fallen in the last 10 years by 17%.

    Although this is not anywhere near enough for the National Food Strategy which seems to have endorsements from various celebrity chefs and Quangocrats.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58831636

    That's a shame to see such a big contraction in meat consumption and I will ensure I do my bit to keep the rate up.

    F**k the vegan extremists infiltrating 'science' for their own agenda.
    That's a very odd comment, which makes you sound an extremist carnivore.
    (I eat a great deal less meat than I used to, enjoy it more when I do, and am healthier as a result.)
  • TazTaz Posts: 3,115
    Scott_xP said:

    Taz said:

    Here's the link from the BBC website to Saint Marcus's latest BBC Breakfast appearance, for those who are interested.

    That's Doctor Saint Marcus
    Correction appreciated, and noted for future reference.
  • Graham Stringer? A Tory MP? Great! He is 71 though so probably not standing next time. Any of his younger more angry colleagues want to join him?

    Good morning

    Is this the remnants of last week's non story or is it actually happening
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,106

    I love England because it is where I am from. For all its faults and failures, it is my family in a way that nowhere else could ever be. I am invested in it like nowhere else on earth. Although there are many other places for which I have very deep affection they can never be a part of me like England is.

    Indeed, it’s home. Such a complex culture. Delightful and infuriating at times.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 26,122
    Good morning everyone.
    As the son of a Welshman, although I was born in England I was, as a child, always taught to think of myself as Welsh, and although I've only lived there for a year or so, I always get a feeling of 'coming home' whenever I cross the border into Wales.

    I get a similar feeling (don't laugh) when the Heathrow or Stansted bound plane on which I'm travelling crosses the coast at Clacton.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 35,353

    Nigelb said:

    Things I love about England (not as a lefty, but perhaps as a liberal):

    I cannot define any particular reason, and there are things that I don't particularly like about it. However, it is my home. I feel happy here, in any part of it. England is like a comfort blanket, warm and pleasant. Whenever I've travelled elsewhere, I find myself thinking of home.

    I could point to our rich history, that lays over the land like a tapestry. But other countries have just as much of that, if not more. I could point to the friendliness of the people, but most countries have that as well, if you approach as a friend. I could point out the fact we punch above our weight: but other countries do that as well. I could point out that I love exploring it by foot, seeking out unusual nooks and crannies. But other countries would offer that as well.

    I just love England (and, also the UK - I have a fond affinity for Scotland; for some reason, less so for Wales or NI).

    It is, and always will be, my home.

    One thing I like (contrast with the US, for example) is that it's still possible for those on the right and left to talk with each other in a semi rational manner.
    Yes, I'd agree with that. Not on social media though.

    On a 1:1 basis I can have a reasonable discussion with anyone - often it starts a bit tense though, and I can tell those who've been in social media echo chambers as they start off by broadcasting axioms as absolute truths and you have to gradually break it down.
    That's the fault of social media, largely. Facebook in particular is an abomination.

    We manage fairly well on here.
  • Taz said:

    Meat consumption has fallen in the last 10 years by 17%.

    Although this is not anywhere near enough for the National Food Strategy which seems to have endorsements from various celebrity chefs and Quangocrats.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58831636

    I expect it will continue and see it across our family
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,906
    edited October 2021

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Jessop, I'd prefer it to be a bit cooler, but the weather's pretty good. I remember a Portuguese dentist saying she much preferred it here.

    It's all that hopping about with your wiffle stick that gets you hot. Sit down with a pint.
  • felix said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimT said:

    One thing I am not clued up on is the idea of the immune system being weakened over the last 18 months by not being so exposed to pathogens. Lots of people suggesting this, but how true is it? Does the immune system need constant work outs?

    With flu isn't it simply the case that the virus is continually mutating, therefore the longer you go without being in contact the latest flu variants the more likely you are to encounter a markedly different variety and the less beneficial your previously acquired immune response will be?
    No, actually. That would be more true for viruses with more continuous evolutionary paths, like coronaviruses. Flus have that, but the major thing is that they completely flip the H and N proteins between multiple versions of each. So evolution of phenotype is not smooth, but jumps from one to the other. That is why exposure to last year's flu does not confer protection against this year's.

    So with flu, the key is not whether this year's flu is similar to last year's, but whether the H and N proteins have been seen in a generation or not.
    The rate of flu vaccination in the over 60s is also likely to be higher than normal, I think ?
    The problem though is anticipating the flu strain. We normally get 6 months notice because we see what the Australians get in their winter, but not this year.
    Understood, which is why the 60k worst case estimate is not ridiculous - equally the numbers could be abnormally low.
    I think the Uk mistake is the abandonment of masks - here in Spain they remain completely compulsory in shps, offices, etc. Although not perfect they will prevent a lot of infections imho.

    I spent three days in Dublin this week and three in London. The contrast in mask wearing was stark. In Ireland, you have to wear them in shops and on public transport etc, and they check vaccine certificates before they let you into restaurants. In London, mask wearing seemed pretty non-existent - even on the tube.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 26,122
    felix said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimT said:

    One thing I am not clued up on is the idea of the immune system being weakened over the last 18 months by not being so exposed to pathogens. Lots of people suggesting this, but how true is it? Does the immune system need constant work outs?

    With flu isn't it simply the case that the virus is continually mutating, therefore the longer you go without being in contact the latest flu variants the more likely you are to encounter a markedly different variety and the less beneficial your previously acquired immune response will be?
    No, actually. That would be more true for viruses with more continuous evolutionary paths, like coronaviruses. Flus have that, but the major thing is that they completely flip the H and N proteins between multiple versions of each. So evolution of phenotype is not smooth, but jumps from one to the other. That is why exposure to last year's flu does not confer protection against this year's.

    So with flu, the key is not whether this year's flu is similar to last year's, but whether the H and N proteins have been seen in a generation or not.
    The rate of flu vaccination in the over 60s is also likely to be higher than normal, I think ?
    The problem though is anticipating the flu strain. We normally get 6 months notice because we see what the Australians get in their winter, but not this year.
    Understood, which is why the 60k worst case estimate is not ridiculous - equally the numbers could be abnormally low.
    I think the Uk mistake is the abandonment of masks - here in Spain they remain completely compulsory in shps, offices, etc. Although not perfect they will prevent a lot of infections imho.
    Still required in Wales.
    Or they were earlier this week.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 35,042
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I think the EU would do better as a smaller grouping, and the Poles don't really want to be part of "the project" anyway.

    Why not split amicably now?
    To lose lose one member in a decade is a little careless. To lose two is existential, as the rats leave the sinking ship.
    It is only the rats that are leaving though, the ship still seems to be cruising along serenely. Slim pickings for rats onboard.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,686
    Dura_Ace said:

    I'd like to hear what some of our liberal-left regulars love about England?

    It would be nice to find some common ground.

    Multi-faceted and complex sense of humour.
    Cultural superpower for centuries.
    Natural communists with a great aptitude for queueing in a decorous manner.
    Highly secular society
    Socialised medicine
    Great variety in distinct regional accents, idiom and accents
    Genuine and unpretentious capacity for self mockery

    10 or 20 years ago I would have said, and I would not have been lying, that I admired the low key and subtle nature of British patriotic expression but that has gone now with the rise of performative nationalism such as the annual poppyfest and the ongoing million fleg march of the tories.
    I'd add great trail-blazers in business, in industry, in science, in technology - and in thought.

    I think you overdo worries about the flegs though. There were far more crosses of St George flying from cars during football tournaments when Blair was PM....
  • Taz said:

    Meat consumption has fallen in the last 10 years by 17%.

    Although this is not anywhere near enough for the National Food Strategy which seems to have endorsements from various celebrity chefs and Quangocrats.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58831636

    That's a shame to see such a big contraction in meat consumption and I will ensure I do my bit to keep the rate up.

    F**k the vegan extremists infiltrating 'science' for their own agenda.
    The rise and rise of plant-based is Good News for meat lovers. It was simply impossible to keep up with demands for land and water use to feed a growing world population with meat. That meant that pressures on both the environment and on producers resulted in cheaper lower quality meat.

    Plant-Based is £600m+ in the UK, growing double-digit percentages year after year after year with no signs of slowing. That creates the breathing room the meat industry needs to get its house in order. Once plant-based sweeps away the need for shite meat - the Iceland value own brand end of the market - meat can go back to being quality.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 48,064
    edited October 2021

    felix said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimT said:

    One thing I am not clued up on is the idea of the immune system being weakened over the last 18 months by not being so exposed to pathogens. Lots of people suggesting this, but how true is it? Does the immune system need constant work outs?

    With flu isn't it simply the case that the virus is continually mutating, therefore the longer you go without being in contact the latest flu variants the more likely you are to encounter a markedly different variety and the less beneficial your previously acquired immune response will be?
    No, actually. That would be more true for viruses with more continuous evolutionary paths, like coronaviruses. Flus have that, but the major thing is that they completely flip the H and N proteins between multiple versions of each. So evolution of phenotype is not smooth, but jumps from one to the other. That is why exposure to last year's flu does not confer protection against this year's.

    So with flu, the key is not whether this year's flu is similar to last year's, but whether the H and N proteins have been seen in a generation or not.
    The rate of flu vaccination in the over 60s is also likely to be higher than normal, I think ?
    The problem though is anticipating the flu strain. We normally get 6 months notice because we see what the Australians get in their winter, but not this year.
    Understood, which is why the 60k worst case estimate is not ridiculous - equally the numbers could be abnormally low.
    I think the Uk mistake is the abandonment of masks - here in Spain they remain completely compulsory in shps, offices, etc. Although not perfect they will prevent a lot of infections imho.
    Still required in Wales.
    Or they were earlier this week.
    In the main mask wearing in this part of Wales has disappeared and it is much reduced in the supermarkets, though of course it does seem to be observed in medical locations

    And no enforcement anywhere

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,906

    felix said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimT said:

    One thing I am not clued up on is the idea of the immune system being weakened over the last 18 months by not being so exposed to pathogens. Lots of people suggesting this, but how true is it? Does the immune system need constant work outs?

    With flu isn't it simply the case that the virus is continually mutating, therefore the longer you go without being in contact the latest flu variants the more likely you are to encounter a markedly different variety and the less beneficial your previously acquired immune response will be?
    No, actually. That would be more true for viruses with more continuous evolutionary paths, like coronaviruses. Flus have that, but the major thing is that they completely flip the H and N proteins between multiple versions of each. So evolution of phenotype is not smooth, but jumps from one to the other. That is why exposure to last year's flu does not confer protection against this year's.

    So with flu, the key is not whether this year's flu is similar to last year's, but whether the H and N proteins have been seen in a generation or not.
    The rate of flu vaccination in the over 60s is also likely to be higher than normal, I think ?
    The problem though is anticipating the flu strain. We normally get 6 months notice because we see what the Australians get in their winter, but not this year.
    Understood, which is why the 60k worst case estimate is not ridiculous - equally the numbers could be abnormally low.
    I think the Uk mistake is the abandonment of masks - here in Spain they remain completely compulsory in shps, offices, etc. Although not perfect they will prevent a lot of infections imho.

    I spent three days in Dublin this week and three in London. The contrast in mask wearing was stark. In Ireland, you have to wear them in shops and on public transport etc, and they check vaccine certificates before they let you into restaurants. In London, mask wearing seemed pretty non-existent - even on the tube.

    It's government policy to pretend covid is over.

    Still masked in hospital though, and people do so without objection. I ran some errands in town the other day. Lots of people coughing, mostly young.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 35,042
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I thought the German Constitutional Court had ruled a couple of times that EU law didn’t have primacy over German Fundamental Law
    That is correct.

    EU law has supremacy over national law only to the extent agreed in the treaties. If the EU claims powers that are not envisaged in its treaties, and which contradict national law (or countries' constitutions), then that it is the duty of national courts to slap the EU down.

    When countries join the EU, they make certain treaty commitments regarding their legal systems, and the maintenance of an independent judiciary. I think there is a good case that Poland (and Hungary) are no longer in compliance with their treaty commitments.

    I would suggest that the solution to this is that Poland and Hungary should cease to be members of the EU. They clearly aren't interested in "the project".

    And I would suggest that the UK should take the lead in creating a lighter-touch, less political free trade area. One that - in the fullness of time - would hopefully have a very close relationship with the EU. One that was about a single currency and political integration, and one that was solely about free trade.

    Done right, I could see a number of non-Eurozone members choose our grouping over the EU. And the EU, stripped of all the complexity of managing two groups of members, who will often have opposing interests.
    But Poles are the ones with the most favourable view of the EU. Why should they leave an organisation that is trying to defend an independent judiciary?

    https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/the-european-union/


    Who would have an unfavourable view of an organisation bunging them £10bn a year?
    The Scottish government?
    I think you'll find that it's Scotland that's subsidising the UK to the tune of £10bn a year.
    Please provide links to support that. I am genuinely interested how the GERS figures can be that wrong if you are correct.
    I have a suspicion RobD was preempting a reply to my jest with that comment.
    Also the Fcukwit asking for proof when all that is available are the fake English GERS crap. They are complete bollox , all borrowing is by the UK (English) parliament and using their dodgy money laundering skills they apportion thhheir debt to Scotland and clowns like the fcukwit above whine and try to pretend it is fact.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,119
    edited October 2021
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    In a strongly-worded initial reaction, the European Commission said the decision on Thursday raised “serious concerns”. It reaffirmed that “EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions”.


    That's the Guardian today on the Poland constitutional case. Just a reminder that those who think the EU is not an emerging state, and those who think everyone else is wonderfully happy with this conflicted and oxymoronic nightmare may be mistaken.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/07/polish-court-rules-that-eu-laws-incompatible-with-its-constitution


    BTW, the SNP are unhappy with the UK having control over the Scottish constitutional settlement, while wanting the EU to 'have primacy over (Scottish) national law, including constitutional provisions'. Fascinating.

    The problem with this analysis is that the Polish Constitutional Court isn't an independent body that deliberates before coming to reasoned and objective judgment. It's a kangaroo court stuffed with ruling party stooges who do precisely what they are told by their government masters.

    It is a massive problem for the EU however. A bigger threat to them in my view than Brexit. It can't really function if members don't respect the rule of law and and have a strong and independent judiciary.
    I thought the German Constitutional Court had ruled a couple of times that EU law didn’t have primacy over German Fundamental Law
    That is correct.

    EU law has supremacy over national law only to the extent agreed in the treaties. If the EU claims powers that are not envisaged in its treaties, and which contradict national law (or countries' constitutions), then that it is the duty of national courts to slap the EU down.

    When countries join the EU, they make certain treaty commitments regarding their legal systems, and the maintenance of an independent judiciary. I think there is a good case that Poland (and Hungary) are no longer in compliance with their treaty commitments.

    I would suggest that the solution to this is that Poland and Hungary should cease to be members of the EU. They clearly aren't interested in "the project".

    And I would suggest that the UK should take the lead in creating a lighter-touch, less political free trade area. One that - in the fullness of time - would hopefully have a very close relationship with the EU. One that was about a single currency and political integration, and one that was solely about free trade.

    Done right, I could see a number of non-Eurozone members choose our grouping over the EU. And the EU, stripped of all the complexity of managing two groups of members, who will often have opposing interests.
    But Poles are the ones with the most favourable view of the EU. Why should they leave an organisation that is trying to defend an independent judiciary?

    https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/14/the-european-union/


    Who would have an unfavourable view of an organisation bunging them £10bn a year?
    The Scottish government?
    The Welsh government?

    Both sides in Northern Ireland?

    Most countries we give foreign aid to?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    FF43 said:

    It's starting to feel like Johnson's speech has bombed.

    But it will make no difference as he has framed the next election.

    Only the forthcoming economic shitstorm can unseat him now.

    Curiously, Boris's speech was better received on the Left (typical Boris but set the right tone) than on the Right (economic and political disaster area). Ultimately though I think Boris will prevail. What's left of the Thatcherite consensus will whither and die.
    It finally struck home this week. The Conservative Party is no more, except in name. It's the Boris Party. If you are a Conservative with values that match, you might well mourn the loss.
    The Conservative party stopped being a 'conservative' party in the 80s. Thatcher was far too radical for that. They reinvented themselves as a neoliberal party under Thatcher; it's the death of that we are seeing now.

    What next? With Johnson in charge who knows - nothing good that's for sure.
    Nice conversation on people-who-would-never-vote-Tory about how the Tory Party is dead.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,836

    I love England because it is where I am from. For all its faults and failures, it is my family in a way that nowhere else could ever be. I am invested in it like nowhere else on earth. Although there are many other places for which I have very deep affection they can never be a part of me like England is.

    I don't get it. Where you are born is an accident of life. I love stuff from England and hate stuff from England just like I do for everywhere.

    The only bias I have is generally supporting England or GB in sporting events and even that can be lost if not played in a sporting way.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,686
    Nigelb said:

    Things I love about England (not as a lefty, but perhaps as a liberal):

    I cannot define any particular reason, and there are things that I don't particularly like about it. However, it is my home. I feel happy here, in any part of it. England is like a comfort blanket, warm and pleasant. Whenever I've travelled elsewhere, I find myself thinking of home.

    I could point to our rich history, that lays over the land like a tapestry. But other countries have just as much of that, if not more. I could point to the friendliness of the people, but most countries have that as well, if you approach as a friend. I could point out the fact we punch above our weight: but other countries do that as well. I could point out that I love exploring it by foot, seeking out unusual nooks and crannies. But other countries would offer that as well.

    I just love England (and, also the UK - I have a fond affinity for Scotland; for some reason, less so for Wales or NI).

    It is, and always will be, my home.

    Having seen large parts of the planet, I think England is like Baby Bear's porridge - it's not too hot, not too cold - it's just right.

    Any adventure abroad is perfectly rounded off by coming home here.

    And they speak English, damn it.
    So does everyone else, almost.
    Not the places I went!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 35,042
    FF43 said:

    It's starting to feel like Johnson's speech has bombed.

    But it will make no difference as he has framed the next election.

    Only the forthcoming economic shitstorm can unseat him now.

    Curiously, Boris's speech was better received on the Left (typical Boris but set the right tone) than on the Right (economic and political disaster area). Ultimately though I think Boris will prevail. What's left of the Thatcherite consensus will whither and die.
    It finally struck home this week. The Conservative Party is no more, except in name. It's the Boris Party. If you are a Conservative with values that match, you might well mourn the loss.
    Not many of them left, with values I mean.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 26,122

    felix said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimT said:

    One thing I am not clued up on is the idea of the immune system being weakened over the last 18 months by not being so exposed to pathogens. Lots of people suggesting this, but how true is it? Does the immune system need constant work outs?

    With flu isn't it simply the case that the virus is continually mutating, therefore the longer you go without being in contact the latest flu variants the more likely you are to encounter a markedly different variety and the less beneficial your previously acquired immune response will be?
    No, actually. That would be more true for viruses with more continuous evolutionary paths, like coronaviruses. Flus have that, but the major thing is that they completely flip the H and N proteins between multiple versions of each. So evolution of phenotype is not smooth, but jumps from one to the other. That is why exposure to last year's flu does not confer protection against this year's.

    So with flu, the key is not whether this year's flu is similar to last year's, but whether the H and N proteins have been seen in a generation or not.
    The rate of flu vaccination in the over 60s is also likely to be higher than normal, I think ?
    The problem though is anticipating the flu strain. We normally get 6 months notice because we see what the Australians get in their winter, but not this year.
    Understood, which is why the 60k worst case estimate is not ridiculous - equally the numbers could be abnormally low.
    I think the Uk mistake is the abandonment of masks - here in Spain they remain completely compulsory in shps, offices, etc. Although not perfect they will prevent a lot of infections imho.
    Still required in Wales.
    Or they were earlier this week.
    In the main mask wearing in this part of Wales has disappeared even in much reduced in the supermarkets, though of course it does seem to be observed in medical locations

    Mrs C and I were in Anglesey until last Tuesday and masks in shops and when entering or leaving restaurants seemed to be normal practice. In fact, when I went to pay for petrol not wearing one I realised I wouldn't be let in to the shop area without one, so had to go back to the car to get it.
    They'd only let me have £30 worth, but as that was all I needed.......
  • TazTaz Posts: 3,115

    Taz said:

    Meat consumption has fallen in the last 10 years by 17%.

    Although this is not anywhere near enough for the National Food Strategy which seems to have endorsements from various celebrity chefs and Quangocrats.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58831636

    I expect it will continue and see it across our family
    We do, we eat vegetarian/vegan twice a week, not through any deliberate desire to do anything altruistic but more for a balanced diet and for variety and for a healthy diet.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,119

    felix said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimT said:

    One thing I am not clued up on is the idea of the immune system being weakened over the last 18 months by not being so exposed to pathogens. Lots of people suggesting this, but how true is it? Does the immune system need constant work outs?

    With flu isn't it simply the case that the virus is continually mutating, therefore the longer you go without being in contact the latest flu variants the more likely you are to encounter a markedly different variety and the less beneficial your previously acquired immune response will be?
    No, actually. That would be more true for viruses with more continuous evolutionary paths, like coronaviruses. Flus have that, but the major thing is that they completely flip the H and N proteins between multiple versions of each. So evolution of phenotype is not smooth, but jumps from one to the other. That is why exposure to last year's flu does not confer protection against this year's.

    So with flu, the key is not whether this year's flu is similar to last year's, but whether the H and N proteins have been seen in a generation or not.
    The rate of flu vaccination in the over 60s is also likely to be higher than normal, I think ?
    The problem though is anticipating the flu strain. We normally get 6 months notice because we see what the Australians get in their winter, but not this year.
    Understood, which is why the 60k worst case estimate is not ridiculous - equally the numbers could be abnormally low.
    I think the Uk mistake is the abandonment of masks - here in Spain they remain completely compulsory in shps, offices, etc. Although not perfect they will prevent a lot of infections imho.

    I spent three days in Dublin this week and three in London. The contrast in mask wearing was stark. In Ireland, you have to wear them in shops and on public transport etc, and they check vaccine certificates before they let you into restaurants. In London, mask wearing seemed pretty non-existent - even on the tube.

    I saw the same contrast coming back from California last month.

    Such a relief to bin the mask. Almost made up for the weather.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,906

    Dura_Ace said:

    I'd like to hear what some of our liberal-left regulars love about England?

    It would be nice to find some common ground.

    Multi-faceted and complex sense of humour.
    Cultural superpower for centuries.
    Natural communists with a great aptitude for queueing in a decorous manner.
    Highly secular society
    Socialised medicine
    Great variety in distinct regional accents, idiom and accents
    Genuine and unpretentious capacity for self mockery

    10 or 20 years ago I would have said, and I would not have been lying, that I admired the low key and subtle nature of British patriotic expression but that has gone now with the rise of performative nationalism such as the annual poppyfest and the ongoing million fleg march of the tories.
    I'd add great trail-blazers in business, in industry, in science, in technology - and in thought.

    I think you overdo worries about the flegs though. There were far more crosses of St George flying from cars during football tournaments when Blair was PM....
    Yes, but during a football tournament is different.

    As we enter the season of Poppymas, we do see the awful mawkishness of British kitsch.

    This is a good site to follow to appreciate the joys:

    https://twitter.com/giantpoppywatch/status/1446147261826732034?t=_T2gKNm1-uzfhUe6RTqOVQ&s=19
  • TazTaz Posts: 3,115

    Taz said:

    Meat consumption has fallen in the last 10 years by 17%.

    Although this is not anywhere near enough for the National Food Strategy which seems to have endorsements from various celebrity chefs and Quangocrats.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58831636

    That's a shame to see such a big contraction in meat consumption and I will ensure I do my bit to keep the rate up.

    F**k the vegan extremists infiltrating 'science' for their own agenda.
    The rise and rise of plant-based is Good News for meat lovers. It was simply impossible to keep up with demands for land and water use to feed a growing world population with meat. That meant that pressures on both the environment and on producers resulted in cheaper lower quality meat.

    Plant-Based is £600m+ in the UK, growing double-digit percentages year after year after year with no signs of slowing. That creates the breathing room the meat industry needs to get its house in order. Once plant-based sweeps away the need for shite meat - the Iceland value own brand end of the market - meat can go back to being quality.
    Heather Mills was investing in a couple of disused factories in the North East for her Vbites range. The old Coty factory in Northumberland and the Walkers factory in Peterlee.

    It is definitely a growing industry.

    The Vegan and Vegetarian range in my local sainsburys is growing considerably. It is three times the size it was when I first started buying the Cauldron Cumberland sausages three years ago.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    FPT:
    Italian Vineyards are hiring machines, as they can’t get the staff.
    https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/21/10/07/1547245/robots-take-over-italys-vineyards-as-wineries-struggle-with-covid-19-worker-shortages

    (Insert “Because of Brexit” joke here).

    Even with unemployment being double what it is in the UK and youth unemployment being over 25%.
    Italian young people live at home, and don't want to work in the fields.

    It's not an uncommon problem in the Western world.
    Looking at European unemployment rates the difference between the Mediterranean countries and Eastern Europe is noticeable:

    Greece 14.6%
    Spain 14.3%
    Italy 9.3%
    France 7.9%

    Bulgaria 5.9%
    Romania 5.1%
    Hungary 4.3%
    Poland 3.4%

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/268830/unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/

    Now there's going to be many factors involved but I wonder if that explains why the number of Eastern Europeans working in the UK has been falling but the number of Western Europeans has been increasing.
    Well, a lot of those countries unemployment rates are low because all the people of working age left to earn money abroad. The Polish diaspora is much larger than the Greek one.
    Sure, that one of the factors I referred to.

    But I am curious that the number of Western Europeans working in the UK continues to increase - who they are and where they are working I'd like to know. They're obviously not working on farms or washing cars.
    OK.

    Here's an interesting question. What has been the absolute change in the number of people employed between 2004 (when the eight were admitted) and now, for those countries.

    Spain: from 17.7m to 20.0m
    France: 26.2m to 28.7m
    Italy: 22.3m to 23.4m
    Greece: 4.4m to 3.9m
    Poland: 13.6m to 16.5m
    Hungary: 3.9m to 4.6m

    I didn't do Bulgaria and Romania as they joined the EU much later.

    (It's amazing how much better everyone else has done than Greece, isn't it?)
    Greece was the one where Goldman cooked the books and locked them into the Euro at a devastatingly uncompetitive rate right? That Greece?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 38,343

    Went to my local BP garage at 6.45am this morning - zero queue and petrol all available, but still restricted to 20 litres each. He said that'd go next week.

    It's fizzling out.

    Turkeys are next. I was at the turkey farm yesterday for our weekly dog training, and their flock (or whatever the right term is) is only half the size of previous years. When it comes to ordering time there’s going to be a rush
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,847

    felix said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimT said:

    One thing I am not clued up on is the idea of the immune system being weakened over the last 18 months by not being so exposed to pathogens. Lots of people suggesting this, but how true is it? Does the immune system need constant work outs?

    With flu isn't it simply the case that the virus is continually mutating, therefore the longer you go without being in contact the latest flu variants the more likely you are to encounter a markedly different variety and the less beneficial your previously acquired immune response will be?
    No, actually. That would be more true for viruses with more continuous evolutionary paths, like coronaviruses. Flus have that, but the major thing is that they completely flip the H and N proteins between multiple versions of each. So evolution of phenotype is not smooth, but jumps from one to the other. That is why exposure to last year's flu does not confer protection against this year's.

    So with flu, the key is not whether this year's flu is similar to last year's, but whether the H and N proteins have been seen in a generation or not.
    The rate of flu vaccination in the over 60s is also likely to be higher than normal, I think ?
    The problem though is anticipating the flu strain. We normally get 6 months notice because we see what the Australians get in their winter, but not this year.
    Understood, which is why the 60k worst case estimate is not ridiculous - equally the numbers could be abnormally low.
    I think the Uk mistake is the abandonment of masks - here in Spain they remain completely compulsory in shps, offices, etc. Although not perfect they will prevent a lot of infections imho.

    I spent three days in Dublin this week and three in London. The contrast in mask wearing was stark. In Ireland, you have to wear them in shops and on public transport etc, and they check vaccine certificates before they let you into restaurants. In London, mask wearing seemed pretty non-existent - even on the tube.

    I don't know why there is this difference - maybe it's similar to the hostility to ID cards in the UK - I understand it because I remain English despite 12 years in Spain but most of my Spanish friends see only the benefits and the practicalities - they value freedom of course but not as an absolute.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,803
    A variation on the "Tories are dying out" myth:

    https://twitter.com/AgentP22/status/1446372280846725157?s=20
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 33,478
    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    TimT said:

    One thing I am not clued up on is the idea of the immune system being weakened over the last 18 months by not being so exposed to pathogens. Lots of people suggesting this, but how true is it? Does the immune system need constant work outs?

    With flu isn't it simply the case that the virus is continually mutating, therefore the longer you go without being in contact the latest flu variants the more likely you are to encounter a markedly different variety and the less beneficial your previously acquired immune response will be?
    No, actually. That would be more true for viruses with more continuous evolutionary paths, like coronaviruses. Flus have that, but the major thing is that they completely flip the H and N proteins between multiple versions of each. So evolution of phenotype is not smooth, but jumps from one to the other. That is why exposure to last year's flu does not confer protection against this year's.

    So with flu, the key is not whether this year's flu is similar to last year's, but whether the H and N proteins have been seen in a generation or not.
    The rate of flu vaccination in the over 60s is also likely to be higher than normal, I think ?
    The problem though is anticipating the flu strain. We normally get 6 months notice because we see what the Australians get in their winter, but not this year.
    Understood, which is why the 60k worst case estimate is not ridiculous - equally the numbers could be abnormally low.
    I think the Uk mistake is the abandonment of masks - here in Spain they remain completely compulsory in shps, offices, etc. Although not perfect they will prevent a lot of infections imho.

    I spent three days in Dublin this week and three in London. The contrast in mask wearing was stark. In Ireland, you have to wear them in shops and on public transport etc, and they check vaccine certificates before they let you into restaurants. In London, mask wearing seemed pretty non-existent - even on the tube.

    It's government policy to pretend covid is over.

    Still masked in hospital though, and people do so without objection. I ran some errands in town the other day. Lots of people coughing, mostly young.
    No, aiui the strategy is that the government is of the opinion that everyone in the country will eventually get COVID and they think it's better for people to get it now than in December/January. A thousand infections today reduces the number of infections in December by 950.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,906
    edited October 2021
    IanB2 said:

    Went to my local BP garage at 6.45am this morning - zero queue and petrol all available, but still restricted to 20 litres each. He said that'd go next week.

    It's fizzling out.

    Turkeys are next. I was at the turkey farm yesterday for our weekly dog training, and their flock (or whatever the right term is) is only half the size of previous years. When it comes to ordering time there’s going to be a rush
    I did my Christmas order last week from M and S. After all, it isn't hard to know what the plan is. No harm in being first in the queue.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,119
    edited October 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Germany today

    22,000 cases and 411 deaths

    A statistical blip? Or their luck running out?

    Well, hard to know for sure. They're nowhere near as vaccinated (particularly in the East) as France/Spain/Italy/etc., so they're potentially pretty vulnerable.

    I wouldn't be surprised if they had a nasty Autumn in Thuringia/Mecklenerg/etc.
    411 deaths is a huge leap from their "normal", tho their number of daily deaths WAS slowly rising, likewise cases

    As we all know one of the habits of Covid is to seek out countries which have been a *tiny bit smug* about their Covid handling, and give them a spanking. As a lesson. Perhaps now it is Germany's turn
    Having spent nearly three weeks there this year, I don’t think smug is a fair description. It’s the only place I have been where observance of precautions is consistent, and challenged if you forget; in towns and cities I kept coming across free testing points and vaccination stations, with small queues of properly distanced people waiting for them.

    If Germany’s figures do go poor (and a sudden jump in daily deaths is more likely to be random fluctuation since a worsening situation should see a progressive change) the more accurate conclusion is that the new variant is sufficiently contagious that we are now wasting our time with all the precautions.
    Germany really is a tale of two countries. In the West - in Bremen, Bonn, Cologne, Hamburg, etc - vaccine take up is in the 90s. In the East - Mecklenburg, Pomerania, Thuringia - it's in the high 50s or low 60s.
    So is the UK. Take up amongst blacks is much lower than amongst whites, and among non-whites generally to a lesser extent.

    This is the latest paper I could find on that:

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(21)00157-5/fulltext
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Interesting to see that Ireland has very quietly announced that it is raising corporation tax to 15% in 2023 to align with Biden's global minimum tax initiative.

    I do wonder how the parasite countries will keep going with the "taxed in country of business" rules because it means Apple UK paying UK corporation tax rather than whatever 0.1% deal they have with Ireland.

    Interesting to note too that the first major thing Ireland's 'allies' in the EU have done post-Brexit is force it to raise corporation tax and to smash their business model.

    Who could have foreseen that? 🤔
    You must be mistaken, there's no way that the EU would ever do that to Ireland. Unity of the 27, Brexit means Brexit, Northern Ireland, Unity, UNITY!

    I am taking a small amount of joy over Ireland getting ritually shafted by their EU "allies" over this tax stuff and soon the NI protocol as the EU decides that trade with the UK is worth more to the 26 than Irish membership is and really, it's probably better for Ireland to leave the EU and sort out it's border issues with the UK separately and outside of the EU.

    Add in Biden the Irishman proposing this tax initiative and also clearly giving no fucks about the situation with the Irish border other than a bit of lip service for the Irish democratic caucus and you can't help but smile after the last five years of Varadker pompously banging on about a United Ireland and overriding the unionist/republican consensus in NI.
    After hubris comes nemesis goes the saying.

    The issue was Varadkar's hubris.
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,847

    Nigelb said:

    Things I love about England (not as a lefty, but perhaps as a liberal):

    I cannot define any particular reason, and there are things that I don't particularly like about it. However, it is my home. I feel happy here, in any part of it. England is like a comfort blanket, warm and pleasant. Whenever I've travelled elsewhere, I find myself thinking of home.

    I could point to our rich history, that lays over the land like a tapestry. But other countries have just as much of that, if not more. I could point to the friendliness of the people, but most countries have that as well, if you approach as a friend. I could point out the fact we punch above our weight: but other countries do that as well. I could point out that I love exploring it by foot, seeking out unusual nooks and crannies. But other countries would offer that as well.

    I just love England (and, also the UK - I have a fond affinity for Scotland; for some reason, less so for Wales or NI).

    It is, and always will be, my home.

    Having seen large parts of the planet, I think England is like Baby Bear's porridge - it's not too hot, not too cold - it's just right.

    Any adventure abroad is perfectly rounded off by coming home here.

    And they speak English, damn it.
    So does everyone else, almost.
    Not the places I went!
    Yes - I live in a part of Spain which although coastal does not have a huge number of English people. More English is now spoken than when I came but to live here comfortably you do need tolerably good Spanish. In many of our local villages there is little English spoken.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 38,343
    edited October 2021

    CR - things I love about England:
    Sense of humour - eg Peter Kay, Peep Show, the Fast Show, Yes Minister
    Music - eg the Beatles, the Stone Roses, Rolling Stones, Amy Winehouse
    Literature - Shakespeare, Orwell, Greene
    Ability to absorb other cultures - British Asian food, Black British music from Two Tone to Grime, Jewish humour
    Countryside - beaches of Cornwall, Yorkshire Dales, Lake District, Kent
    London - greatest city on earth
    My English wife and kids and parents
    The England football team
    Dissenting spirit - the Tolpuddle martyrs, peasant revolt, Greenham Common, Kinder Scout trespass, Battle of Cable Street
    Taking the piss

    What about right-leaning posters? I sometimes get the impression with you guys that you love England in principle but not in practice.

    You have a very good point. Remember the reaction from some Tories to the 2012 opening ceremony, until they quickly piped down once they realised how almost everyone else saw it as a creative and national triumph?

    And you could add tolerance, individualism and eccentricity (and acceptance thereof), sense of justice and fair play, support for the underdog, our long history of science and invention, the media especially the BBC, etc. And, yes, the NHS. Personally I’d add our natural scepticism about religion and superstition.

    Those who think it’s just about the Queen and the flag and a few nuclear submarines plus the royal tournament thingy where soldiers carry a cannon over a wall are really selling us short.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 2,344

    IanB2 said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Germany today

    22,000 cases and 411 deaths

    A statistical blip? Or their luck running out?

    Well, hard to know for sure. They're nowhere near as vaccinated (particularly in the East) as France/Spain/Italy/etc., so they're potentially pretty vulnerable.

    I wouldn't be surprised if they had a nasty Autumn in Thuringia/Mecklenerg/etc.
    411 deaths is a huge leap from their "normal", tho their number of daily deaths WAS slowly rising, likewise cases

    As we all know one of the habits of Covid is to seek out countries which have been a *tiny bit smug* about their Covid handling, and give them a spanking. As a lesson. Perhaps now it is Germany's turn
    Having spent nearly three weeks there this year, I don’t think smug is a fair description. It’s the only place I have been where observance of precautions is consistent, and challenged if you forget; in towns and cities I kept coming across free testing points and vaccination stations, with small queues of properly distanced people waiting for them.

    If Germany’s figures do go poor (and a sudden jump in daily deaths is more likely to be random fluctuation since a worsening situation should see a progressive change) the more accurate conclusion is that the new variant is sufficiently contagious that we are now wasting our time with all the precautions.
    Agreed re Germans’ behaviour: conformance to the rules is astounding. Definitely not “smug” as Sean claims. Like most things, they take Covid very seriously.
    Haven't heard Merkel going on about world beating anything. Imagine if Britain had Germany's relatively somewhat better numbers compared to some neighbours, Johnson would be claiming credit every day

    Also Leon's death figures are just wrong.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,836
    kjh said:

    I love England because it is where I am from. For all its faults and failures, it is my family in a way that nowhere else could ever be. I am invested in it like nowhere else on earth. Although there are many other places for which I have very deep affection they can never be a part of me like England is.

    I don't get it. Where you are born is an accident of life. I love stuff from England and hate stuff from England just like I do for everywhere.

    The only bias I have is generally supporting England or GB in sporting events and even that can be lost if not played in a sporting way.
    So what I like about UK:

    Pubs
    Humour
    Sport
    Weather (my wife disagrees)
    Food
    I suspect culture is also positive but I am a philistine
    Countryside (where not ruined)
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,803
    Britain's transport minister Grant Shapps said on Friday there was still no exact date on when the United States would open for travellers from the United Kingdom, beyond guidance of early November.

    Asked on Sky News if he had a specific date for the U.S. reopening, Shapps said: "I don't. I've been speaking to my opposite number, I spoke to the American ambassador a couple of days ago, they're still working through the technicalities of that."


    https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/britain-says-exact-date-us-travel-reopening-still-not-known-2021-10-08/
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,906

    A variation on the "Tories are dying out" myth:

    https://twitter.com/AgentP22/status/1446372280846725157?s=20

    I think she is right though. While in general people become more right wing with age, that doesn't equate to Unionism.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,119

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Interesting to see that Ireland has very quietly announced that it is raising corporation tax to 15% in 2023 to align with Biden's global minimum tax initiative.

    I do wonder how the parasite countries will keep going with the "taxed in country of business" rules because it means Apple UK paying UK corporation tax rather than whatever 0.1% deal they have with Ireland.

    Interesting to note too that the first major thing Ireland's 'allies' in the EU have done post-Brexit is force it to raise corporation tax and to smash their business model.

    Who could have foreseen that? 🤔
    You must be mistaken, there's no way that the EU would ever do that to Ireland. Unity of the 27, Brexit means Brexit, Northern Ireland, Unity, UNITY!

    I am taking a small amount of joy over Ireland getting ritually shafted by their EU "allies" over this tax stuff and soon the NI protocol as the EU decides that trade with the UK is worth more to the 26 than Irish membership is and really, it's probably better for Ireland to leave the EU and sort out it's border issues with the UK separately and outside of the EU.

    Add in Biden the Irishman proposing this tax initiative and also clearly giving no fucks about the situation with the Irish border other than a bit of lip service for the Irish democratic caucus and you can't help but smile after the last five years of Varadker pompously banging on about a United Ireland and overriding the unionist/republican consensus in NI.
    After hubris comes nemesis goes the saying.

    The issue was Varadkar's hubris.
    We should cut our corporation tax rate to 14.5% from 2023, not raise it.

    Just to troll the Irish.

    And useless Biden, of course.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 36,111

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Interesting to see that Ireland has very quietly announced that it is raising corporation tax to 15% in 2023 to align with Biden's global minimum tax initiative.

    I do wonder how the parasite countries will keep going with the "taxed in country of business" rules because it means Apple UK paying UK corporation tax rather than whatever 0.1% deal they have with Ireland.

    Interesting to note too that the first major thing Ireland's 'allies' in the EU have done post-Brexit is force it to raise corporation tax and to smash their business model.

    Who could have foreseen that? 🤔
    You must be mistaken, there's no way that the EU would ever do that to Ireland. Unity of the 27, Brexit means Brexit, Northern Ireland, Unity, UNITY!

    I am taking a small amount of joy over Ireland getting ritually shafted by their EU "allies" over this tax stuff and soon the NI protocol as the EU decides that trade with the UK is worth more to the 26 than Irish membership is and really, it's probably better for Ireland to leave the EU and sort out it's border issues with the UK separately and outside of the EU.

    Add in Biden the Irishman proposing this tax initiative and also clearly giving no fucks about the situation with the Irish border other than a bit of lip service for the Irish democratic caucus and you can't help but smile after the last five years of Varadker pompously banging on about a United Ireland and overriding the unionist/republican consensus in NI.
    After hubris comes nemesis goes the saying.

    The issue was Varadkar's hubris.
    Enda Kenny had the right idea, to put the border issue on one side and negotiate it carefully and sensitively.

    Then Varadkar and Barnier decided to go for the bull-in-a-china-shop approach, and put the border front and centre of the negotiations, negotiations which mostly involved people with little understanding of the unique challenges around Northern Ireland.
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,847

    A variation on the "Tories are dying out" myth:

    https://twitter.com/AgentP22/status/1446372280846725157?s=20

    Abuse of the elderly simply for being old seems one of the last things allowed with impunity - certainly quite evident on here at times.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,906

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Interesting to see that Ireland has very quietly announced that it is raising corporation tax to 15% in 2023 to align with Biden's global minimum tax initiative.

    I do wonder how the parasite countries will keep going with the "taxed in country of business" rules because it means Apple UK paying UK corporation tax rather than whatever 0.1% deal they have with Ireland.

    Interesting to note too that the first major thing Ireland's 'allies' in the EU have done post-Brexit is force it to raise corporation tax and to smash their business model.

    Who could have foreseen that? 🤔
    You must be mistaken, there's no way that the EU would ever do that to Ireland. Unity of the 27, Brexit means Brexit, Northern Ireland, Unity, UNITY!

    I am taking a small amount of joy over Ireland getting ritually shafted by their EU "allies" over this tax stuff and soon the NI protocol as the EU decides that trade with the UK is worth more to the 26 than Irish membership is and really, it's probably better for Ireland to leave the EU and sort out it's border issues with the UK separately and outside of the EU.

    Add in Biden the Irishman proposing this tax initiative and also clearly giving no fucks about the situation with the Irish border other than a bit of lip service for the Irish democratic caucus and you can't help but smile after the last five years of Varadker pompously banging on about a United Ireland and overriding the unionist/republican consensus in NI.
    After hubris comes nemesis goes the saying.

    The issue was Varadkar's hubris.
    Well, let's see. What I understood from Sefcovic was that he was willing to discuss how to implement the NI protocol, he was not going to remove it.
  • Nigelb said:

    Taz said:

    Meat consumption has fallen in the last 10 years by 17%.

    Although this is not anywhere near enough for the National Food Strategy which seems to have endorsements from various celebrity chefs and Quangocrats.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58831636

    That's a shame to see such a big contraction in meat consumption and I will ensure I do my bit to keep the rate up.

    F**k the vegan extremists infiltrating 'science' for their own agenda.
    That's a very odd comment, which makes you sound an extremist carnivore.
    (I eat a great deal less meat than I used to, enjoy it more when I do, and am healthier as a result.)
    I'm not an extremist carnivore, I'm a human omnivore who really enjoys meat - just as humans have evolved to do. We're top of the food chain for a reason and there is nothing more natural in the world than an animal eating another animal.

    F**k vegans trying to suppress my right to eat as much meat as I like and those abusing 'science' for their own vegan agenda.

    I try and moderate my processed carb intake, not my protein intake, and am healthier as a result.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,836
    IanB2 said:

    Went to my local BP garage at 6.45am this morning - zero queue and petrol all available, but still restricted to 20 litres each. He said that'd go next week.

    It's fizzling out.

    Turkeys are next. I was at the turkey farm yesterday for our weekly dog training, and their flock (or whatever the right term is) is only half the size of previous years. When it comes to ordering time there’s going to be a rush
    It is going to be a laugh if people panic buy turkeys.
  • kjh said:

    I love England because it is where I am from. For all its faults and failures, it is my family in a way that nowhere else could ever be. I am invested in it like nowhere else on earth. Although there are many other places for which I have very deep affection they can never be a part of me like England is.

    I don't get it. Where you are born is an accident of life. I love stuff from England and hate stuff from England just like I do for everywhere.

    The only bias I have is generally supporting England or GB in sporting events and even that can be lost if not played in a sporting way.

    Who you are born to is also an accident of life, but you do tend to love your Mum and Dad. I am invested in England in a way that I am not anywhere else. It's where I come from, where my kids come from, where my parents and grandparents etc came from. That has created something inside me that I just cannot feel for anywhere else. Perhaps it is irrational (though I don't think so), but it is what it is.

This discussion has been closed.