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Truss once again topping the CONHome ratings – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited October 5 in General
imageTruss once again topping the CONHome ratings – politicalbetting.com

As we pointed out here the September CONHome Cabinet rankings seemed to be a good indicator of who would get sacked in the re-shuffle and who would do well. We have now got the latest figures which once again have Liz Truss right at the top with Grant Shapps now taking bottom place with Patel not far above.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,890
    First - for a change
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 11,591
    "Rishi-Liz battle"

    Do we know what their relationship is like?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,963
    Third like Lord Frost.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,035
    edited October 5
    Random thought - I wonder if it could be in Boris's interests to let Sunak do what he think needs to be done to raise taxes, then sack him and install a new Chancellor. That might to some extent restore his credit, particularly if the new Chancellor can start off with a token tax cut or two.

    That would be a true Machiavellian move - getting rid of a rival and boosting his support in the party at the same time.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,963
    Priti Patel in trouble there.

    Failure to sack Cressida Dick, and to stop the Channel boat crossings.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,281
    Sandpit said:

    Priti Patel in trouble there.

    Failure to sack Cressida Dick, and to stop the Channel boat crossings.

    Failure to stop Insulate Britain will trump both of those.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,950

    "Rishi-Liz battle"

    Do we know what their relationship is like?

    Don't start rumours, please...
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,277

    Sandpit said:

    Priti Patel in trouble there.

    Failure to sack Cressida Dick, and to stop the Channel boat crossings.

    Failure to stop Insulate Britain will trump both of those.
    She is about to give her conference speech

    Her reception will be interesting especially on cross channel migrants
  • I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 11,591
    Nigelb said:

    "Rishi-Liz battle"

    Do we know what their relationship is like?

    Don't start rumours, please...
    Not that sort of relationship!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,950
    Mogg is also pretty popular - and has zero chance of becoming leader.
    I think Truss is more likely a decent trading bet than a real favourite for the leadership.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,890
    The fact that JRM is up there says a lot about Tory Party members.

    Here's how it's gonna play out in 2024:

    Johnson narrowly fails to achieve a majority. Starmer cobbles together a 'government of losers'. Johnson resigns. JRM elected Tory leader. Starmer calls a 2nd election.

    Tory's toast or Tories toast?
  • eekeek Posts: 15,790

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
  • "Rishi-Liz battle"

    Do we know what their relationship is like?

    I did read a while back that it was quite friendly, he succeeded her as Chief Secretary and was based around that and the transition.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,060

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    Anyone would think that being imprisoned on an airfield at Christmas with no food or toilets would be welcomed by these eastern european peasants. Bloody ingrates.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 33,950

    Nigelb said:

    "Rishi-Liz battle"

    Do we know what their relationship is like?

    Don't start rumours, please...
    Not that sort of relationship!
    Too much time reading @TheScreamingEagles posts has dirtied my mind, clearly.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 11,591
    Nigelb said:

    Mogg is also pretty popular - and has zero chance of becoming leader.
    I think Truss is more likely a decent trading bet than a real favourite for the leadership.

    Truss did Boris' warm up speech in 2019.

    I left that room utterly convinced that she could win a two horse race.

    I see there's a risk that she doesn't make it that far though.
  • Nigelb said:

    Mogg is also pretty popular - and has zero chance of becoming leader.
    I think Truss is more likely a decent trading bet than a real favourite for the leadership.

    He's been banging the drum pretty loudly against tax rises, probably the only one, that will make him popular.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,281

    Nigelb said:

    Mogg is also pretty popular - and has zero chance of becoming leader.
    I think Truss is more likely a decent trading bet than a real favourite for the leadership.

    Truss did Boris' warm up speech in 2019.

    I left that room utterly convinced that she could win a two horse race.

    I see there's a risk that she doesn't make it that far though.
    A went to a fringe event I think from memory in 2015 where she was one of the speakers. One of the subjects being addressed was the UK's low productivity.

    I left that room convinced that she could be a real contender.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 97,823
    edited October 5
    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,280
    HYUFD said:

    Leon said:

    Can I be the first PB Nat to suggest that the Chinese invasion of Taiwan, and the ensuing global war which will wipe out maybe a third of humanity, rendering much of the globe uninhabitable, can only be good for the cause of Scottish independence? And will actually increase SNP representation at Holyrood?

    No, they will still not get indyref2. Even if we face a nuclear holocaust if we Tories are in government and any of us are still alive we will still not give Sturgeon indyref2.

    Indeed the loss of Taiwanese independence and return to unity with China would suggest a global trend in the opposite direction
    You are HAL 9000 and I claim my five pounds.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 6,444
    The top of those rankings is a real horror show. Apart from Ben Wallace, who I have never heard of, Nadhim Zahawi is the first in the list who is not a genuine fruitcake or appalling second rate hack. When did the politicians in this country become so poor quality?
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    "Rishi-Liz battle"

    Do we know what their relationship is like?

    Don't start rumours, please...
    Not that sort of relationship!
    Too much time reading @TheScreamingEagles posts has dirtied my mind, clearly.
    Fake news.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,281

    The top of those rankings is a real horror show. Apart from Ben Wallace, who I have never heard of, Nadhim Zahawi is the first in the list who is not a genuine fruitcake or appalling second rate hack. When did the politicians in this country become so poor quality?

    Shows how out of touch you are, you probably just oppose them because they're Tories.

    The only fruitcake or hack ahead of Zahawi is Mogg.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,403
    How come the Magnificent Muscly Man is so low in these ratings? Is he not loved by his own?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,060

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,277
    Sky breaking

    330,000 children were victims of sex abuse within France’s Catholic Church since 1950
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 6,444

    The top of those rankings is a real horror show. Apart from Ben Wallace, who I have never heard of, Nadhim Zahawi is the first in the list who is not a genuine fruitcake or appalling second rate hack. When did the politicians in this country become so poor quality?

    Shows how out of touch you are, you probably just oppose them because they're Tories.

    The only fruitcake or hack ahead of Zahawi is Mogg.
    Maybe I'm being too harsh on Sunak, although I think EOTHO was a disastrous idea that probably killed people. But Truss? Frost? I would worry about them running the school tombola. The Tories have plenty of smart people in their ranks, but the top of this list looks like a freak show.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,351
    Mr. Pioneers, I agree with much of that. The PM is inadequate, unless one is seeking advice on infidelity, but worth recalling the muppetry is green-related. Fittingly, given the war on gas and internal combustion engines.
  • The top of those rankings is a real horror show. Apart from Ben Wallace, who I have never heard of, Nadhim Zahawi is the first in the list who is not a genuine fruitcake or appalling second rate hack. When did the politicians in this country become so poor quality?

    Ben Wallace is the Defence secretary, who appears to be competent.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 6,444

    The top of those rankings is a real horror show. Apart from Ben Wallace, who I have never heard of, Nadhim Zahawi is the first in the list who is not a genuine fruitcake or appalling second rate hack. When did the politicians in this country become so poor quality?

    Ben Wallace is the Defence secretary, who appears to be competent.
    Yes I can't comment on him as I have never heard of him.
  • eekeek Posts: 15,790

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    But it does allow the Government to throw the problem back into the industry's face, you asked for permits - we gave you what you asked for.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,281
    edited October 5

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 6,444

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    EU freedom of movement = the Atlantic slave trade. Well, it's a view, as they say.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,534
    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    50m
    Watched the first episode of the New Labour documentary last night. Contrast between scope and scale of change back then, and cautious incrementalism under display from Keir Starmer, was brutal.

    ===


    Yep. Starmer only scratching the edges so far.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,966
    edited October 5
    kinabalu said:

    How come the Magnificent Muscly Man is so low in these ratings? Is he not loved by his own?

    Yes, I thought the same. We're always told, with some justification, that Boris's lovable rogue persona tickles the fancy of vast swathes of the country. And yet the most ardent Tories in this poll seem not to be as enamoured as the voters. I can only guess that the Tories polled are skewed to the fiscally dry, traditional values branch of the party.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 31,931

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    All I believe @RP was saying was that there will inevitably be a perhaps painful transition period. Where things such as shortages, price hikes, etc will feature until a new equilibrium is reached.

    It is not a question of whether this high wage, high price, high tax economy is a good or bad thing; we can discuss that later when we look at the economics of such a strategy.

    It is a question of whether people realise that moving to a high wage, high price, high tax economy involves some "can't get to there from here" adjustments. They might be painful; we shall see. We will also see whether the govt can see through the pain without caving so we can get to a high wage, high...well you get the point.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,534
    Mogg on Insulate: "They are willing to risk people's lives, when they haven't even bothered to insulate their own homes."
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,281

    The top of those rankings is a real horror show. Apart from Ben Wallace, who I have never heard of, Nadhim Zahawi is the first in the list who is not a genuine fruitcake or appalling second rate hack. When did the politicians in this country become so poor quality?

    Shows how out of touch you are, you probably just oppose them because they're Tories.

    The only fruitcake or hack ahead of Zahawi is Mogg.
    Maybe I'm being too harsh on Sunak, although I think EOTHO was a disastrous idea that probably killed people. But Truss? Frost? I would worry about them running the school tombola. The Tories have plenty of smart people in their ranks, but the top of this list looks like a freak show.
    Frost has done an absolutely fantastic job in the negotiations with the EU getting a deal that could be brought through Parliament, something Robbins utterly failed to do. Getting a zero-tariff, zero-quota trade deal that we were told was cherrypicking and impossible. And now he's dealing with Article 16, using the powers he negotiated in the first round of negotiations.

    That has shown tremendous talent, while Barnier etc have moved on he is stood there having nearly finished cleaning up the horlicks that Robbins and May made of the whole thing agreeing to deal with NI first.

    As for Truss - her performance over the past couple of years has been excellent, just excellent. She did more for our international relations than Raab ever did - and her predecessor Liam Fox too who failed to sign the rollover deals she managed to get.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 31,931
    And thanks to Mike for including my name in the header.

    S'much appreciated.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,060
    I was back in Rochdale yesterday managing the removers as my parents are moving up here (after 41 years in the same house). Whilst I've seen how busy the town is getting over the years, it really hit home yesterday with absurd traffic levels.

    Quite simply there are too many cars, too many houses, too many people. For 20 years the council have allowed houses to be built and built and built along the Rochdale > Littleborough road to the point where its now ludicrously busy.

    New houses means you need new roads. New schools. New infrastructure. But there has been none of that. Just people piled on top of people so that you can barely move. Yes I know my perspective has shifted having moved to the country. But at which point do councils have a requirement to actually stop and plan rather than just let developments go up everywhere?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,281

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    EU freedom of movement = the Atlantic slave trade. Well, it's a view, as they say.
    Treating people as a commodity and shipping them around for minimum wage is a modern day comparable mindset, yes.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,488
    edited October 5

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    EU freedom of movement = the Atlantic slave trade. Well, it's a view, as they say.
    I daresay the Africans would have preferred FOM and to be treated as citizens, sorry subjects, of HMTQ equal to the natives, both in the UK and in the Empire (which would include UK registered ships). And for slave trade sugar to be declared illegal much as [edit] blood diamonds and ivory have been/will be in the EU.

    I have some dim recollection that many of the the worst victims of modern slavery come/came from non-EU countries, not entirely surprisingly (i.e. as illegals, their gangmasters had an automatic hold on them).
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,277

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    We are witnessing the most profound change to our country in decades and if it works it will see the country transformed but I believe for this to succeed it needs more than a one term conservative administration

    And here is the question, will the people be patient to give this change the time it needs or will those wanting to go back to free movement from the EU actually win through and rejoin the single market

  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,060
    eek said:

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    But it does allow the Government to throw the problem back into the industry's face, you asked for permits - we gave you what you asked for.
    No they didn't. 5,000 for each was nowhere near enough, on terms that were prohibitively tight. Industry will throw it back at them - we asked for people, you agreed we could have them and then you fucked it up.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,060

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    Its a problem for people expecting a nice Christmas...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,281

    I was back in Rochdale yesterday managing the removers as my parents are moving up here (after 41 years in the same house). Whilst I've seen how busy the town is getting over the years, it really hit home yesterday with absurd traffic levels.

    Quite simply there are too many cars, too many houses, too many people. For 20 years the council have allowed houses to be built and built and built along the Rochdale > Littleborough road to the point where its now ludicrously busy.

    New houses means you need new roads. New schools. New infrastructure. But there has been none of that. Just people piled on top of people so that you can barely move. Yes I know my perspective has shifted having moved to the country. But at which point do councils have a requirement to actually stop and plan rather than just let developments go up everywhere?

    And yet you still advocate for even more immigration to fill minimum wage jobs? Rather than have businesses raise pay rates or invest in automation?

    Do you not see the flagrant hypocrisy? How can you have "stop and plan" if there's free movement? You can't "plan" when ten million people net have arrived in a few years.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,963

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    50m
    Watched the first episode of the New Labour documentary last night. Contrast between scope and scale of change back then, and cautious incrementalism under display from Keir Starmer, was brutal.

    ===


    Yep. Starmer only scratching the edges so far.

    At this point in Blair’s leadership, he was pushing through the Clause 4 reforms that defined Blairism in the eyes of the party.

    What’s Starmer’s Clause 4?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,207
    I think this might be a local peak for Truss. Foreign Secretary is a really difficult job to make an impression with. All the important bits, with potential for crowd-pleasing, are handled by other ministers: trade deals, EU-baiting, defence cooperation. And the PM will swoop in for the highlights of the rest of international diplomacy.

    It leaves the Foreign Secretary with the task of cancelling their holiday to look impotent in the face of the latest international crisis. Though at least Truss will probably be capable enough to do both parts of that job, unlike Raab, who was only able to manage the latter.

    If she manages to make more of the job and maintains a strong positive profile, then she will have done well.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 6,444

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    EU freedom of movement = the Atlantic slave trade. Well, it's a view, as they say.
    Treating people as a commodity and shipping them around for minimum wage is a modern day comparable mindset, yes.
    So what you are saying is that Freedom is Slavery, right? I'm sure I've heard that line before somewhere... 🤔
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,281
    edited October 5

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    Its a problem for people expecting a nice Christmas...
    Christmas trading begins in earnest in four weeks yesterday.

    There isn't time to be pratting around with visas etc, it isn't happening. The door has been opened and there's nothing there.

    Companies that want stock on shelves need to pay whatever it takes. Any companies that fail to do so, hopefully they lose profits and market share to those that do. Consumers will take their hard earned money to whichever company manages to have stock available - Amazon don't seem to have any issues with availability.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,963
    edited October 5

    eek said:

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    But it does allow the Government to throw the problem back into the industry's face, you asked for permits - we gave you what you asked for.
    No they didn't. 5,000 for each was nowhere near enough, on terms that were prohibitively tight. Industry will throw it back at them - we asked for people, you agreed we could have them and then you fucked it up.
    So industry can’t be bothered to go looking for recruits for the visas they were offered, but want yet more visas made available?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,277

    I was back in Rochdale yesterday managing the removers as my parents are moving up here (after 41 years in the same house). Whilst I've seen how busy the town is getting over the years, it really hit home yesterday with absurd traffic levels.

    Quite simply there are too many cars, too many houses, too many people. For 20 years the council have allowed houses to be built and built and built along the Rochdale > Littleborough road to the point where its now ludicrously busy.

    New houses means you need new roads. New schools. New infrastructure. But there has been none of that. Just people piled on top of people so that you can barely move. Yes I know my perspective has shifted having moved to the country. But at which point do councils have a requirement to actually stop and plan rather than just let developments go up everywhere?

    Moving to the Broch is quite a contrast to be fair
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,772
    edited October 5

    Mogg on Insulate: "They are willing to risk people's lives, when they haven't even bothered to insulate their own homes."

    Rather concise for him. However, spot on.

    Given that he has been correctly pointedly personal at them, does anyone know what the EPCs are on Mogg's Houses?

    (These things are overwhelmingly public,)
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,281

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    EU freedom of movement = the Atlantic slave trade. Well, it's a view, as they say.
    Treating people as a commodity and shipping them around for minimum wage is a modern day comparable mindset, yes.
    So what you are saying is that Freedom is Slavery, right? I'm sure I've heard that line before somewhere... 🤔
    No Freedom is not Slavery.

    Employers thinking they can evade paying a good wage by just ship people over in shitty conditions instead . . . you don't see the parallel or issue with that?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,917

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    EU freedom of movement = the Atlantic slave trade. Well, it's a view, as they say.
    Treating people as a commodity and shipping them around for minimum wage is a modern day comparable mindset, yes.

    Giving people the right to live, work and study in 30 European countries is in no conceivable way comparable to slavery.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,894

    The top of those rankings is a real horror show. Apart from Ben Wallace, who I have never heard of, Nadhim Zahawi is the first in the list who is not a genuine fruitcake or appalling second rate hack. When did the politicians in this country become so poor quality?

    July 4, 1387. At 12.36
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,060
    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    All I believe @RP was saying was that there will inevitably be a perhaps painful transition period. Where things such as shortages, price hikes, etc will feature until a new equilibrium is reached.

    It is not a question of whether this high wage, high price, high tax economy is a good or bad thing; we can discuss that later when we look at the economics of such a strategy.

    It is a question of whether people realise that moving to a high wage, high price, high tax economy involves some "can't get to there from here" adjustments. They might be painful; we shall see. We will also see whether the govt can see through the pain without caving so we can get to a high wage, high...well you get the point.
    Yes. We have gone all the way through the stages of Brexiteer denial. This won't happen its just Project Fear, then this is absolutely not happening, then this is happening but its happening elsewhere please don't blame Brexit, now its a designed-in feature. Its good that we have growing shortages because the economy is in transition.

    So the test will be how many people will be happy to suffer the consequences of this transition. The promise was jam tomorrow, the offer has now been changed to an empty jam jar.

    The reason why the botched visas scheme is a problem is simple. In doing so the government has recognised that this transition is going to be bloody awful. But in not offering enough visas or visas on terms that anyone will accept it can't just blame industry who say "give us people" as the government agree they need people.

    They should do one of two things. Hold the line. Yes this will be a rough winter, yes there will shortages and outages and less stuff available will cost you more, but the jam we promised is coming. OR, try and pass the blame for the rough winter onto greedy business leaders whose fault it is. They appear to be riding both horses.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,506
    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    The PM said it was 127 on Breakfast.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,917

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    Its a problem for people expecting a nice Christmas...

    It's a problem for people on fixed incomes who do not have the ability to negotiate inflation-busting pay rises. In other words, the principal Tory voting demographic.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 34,894

    The top of those rankings is a real horror show. Apart from Ben Wallace, who I have never heard of, Nadhim Zahawi is the first in the list who is not a genuine fruitcake or appalling second rate hack. When did the politicians in this country become so poor quality?

    Ben Wallace is the Defence secretary, who appears to be competent.
    Yes I can't comment on him as I have never heard of him.
    TBF I’m not sure I’d want the Defence Secretary on the front pages the whole time!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,468
    edited October 5
    Yes, if Boris wins the next general election then the next Tory leader would likely be one of Truss or Sunak who would then of course become the next PM.

    However, if Boris loses the next general election and Starmer becomes PM, probably of a minority Labour government then others will come into play too. In particular Jacob Rees-Mogg, now on a +66% approval rating in the ConHome Tory party members survey even ahead of Rishi, would be a contender to be leader of the Conservative party and leader of the opposition to a PM Starmer. Ben Wallace must also be a contender as well in such circumstances given his solid performance as Defence Secretary and popularity with the membership
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,277

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    Its a problem for people expecting a nice Christmas...
    Last Christmas we were isolated on our own not allowed to be with our family

    This Christmas we will be together as a family once more and to be honest if we cannot get turkey then we will find an alternative

    It most certainly will be a joyous Christmas no matter if a few other things are unavailable as well
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,868
    Sandpit said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    50m
    Watched the first episode of the New Labour documentary last night. Contrast between scope and scale of change back then, and cautious incrementalism under display from Keir Starmer, was brutal.

    ===


    Yep. Starmer only scratching the edges so far.

    At this point in Blair’s leadership, he was pushing through the Clause 4 reforms that defined Blairism in the eyes of the party.

    What’s Starmer’s Clause 4?
    He tells the urban middle class that their lifestyle has been dependent upon exploitation for too long and that they will now have to pay more so that said exploitation can end.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,281
    edited October 5

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    EU freedom of movement = the Atlantic slave trade. Well, it's a view, as they say.
    Treating people as a commodity and shipping them around for minimum wage is a modern day comparable mindset, yes.

    Giving people the right to live, work and study in 30 European countries is in no conceivable way comparable to slavery.

    Shipping people in so that 12 working adults live in a 3 bedroom home, in order to pay them a pittance because they're desperate and evade having to offer good terms and conditions is the same mindset and is comparable though.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,488

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    The PM said it was 127 on Breakfast.
    Maybe the ones who downloaded the application forms?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,280
    Charles said:

    PJH said:

    mickydroy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Robinson doing a robust job of combatting the PM's pitiful bluster on R4 this morning

    We may be a few years yet before the public see through the bluster and the jokes and realise they have been totally had. But they will and the fall will be brutal.
    I totally agree, that when the reckoning happens to the Tory party, it will be brutal, and they will go down to a drubbing, we have never seen before, but I have to add a but first, they need to win the next election first. Then the one after that they will be turned on, anyone but Tory party will walk it
    I've been thinking along these lines too. I reckon the next election will be a good one to lose, as I can see the Tories managing to kick most of the cans far enough down the road to get re-elected. Then the chickens will all come home to roost. (Sorry for mixed metaphors).

    If Labour win, they will get no credit from the actions they will have to take to clear up the mess (a bit like 1974).
    As it happens, Labour have too big a mountain to climb to win in 2023/4. They might deprive the Tories of majority. That is entirely possible especially if the economic shit coming is as dire as I think it will be. So a minority Labour administration gets the blame for failing to clear up the mess. I can see some of the more thoughtful Tories thinking that might be a better way to go.

    It’s never a good election to lose
    Except if you’re Ruth Davidson.

    According to the media, she won every election she ever lost.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,689

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    EU freedom of movement = the Atlantic slave trade. Well, it's a view, as they say.
    Treating people as a commodity and shipping them around for minimum wage is a modern day comparable mindset, yes.
    They tend to ship themselves, though. As someone said, the only thing worse for poor countries than being exploited, is not being exploited. And it doesn't look like minimum wage when you turn it into zlotys.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,060

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    Its a problem for people expecting a nice Christmas...

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    We are witnessing the most profound change to our country in decades and if it works it will see the country transformed but I believe for this to succeed it needs more than a one term conservative administration

    And here is the question, will the people be patient to give this change the time it needs or will those wanting to go back to free movement from the EU actually win through and rejoin the single market

    I think you need to step back from big concepts like "free movement" and "single market". Those won't be front of wind this winter if this plays out as badly as even the government now say it will. Most people are not that ideological. "What works" is what they want. And the government are refusing to do what it takes.

    I don't get their inflexibility on these things. Not just the labour force where they are riding both horses and in danger of falling between them into the mud. Javid is refusing to use private hospitals to clear the NHS backlog. Why not? Public money paid to private firms to deliver public service that the monolith has failed to do.

    You'd think they'd be all over this. Blair did it without hesitation - do what works when in crisis. Are the government really trying to pretend there is no NHS crisis the same way they are denying there is a fuel crisis or an energy crisis or a manufacturing crisis or a logistics crisis?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 6,444

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    EU freedom of movement = the Atlantic slave trade. Well, it's a view, as they say.
    Treating people as a commodity and shipping them around for minimum wage is a modern day comparable mindset, yes.
    So what you are saying is that Freedom is Slavery, right? I'm sure I've heard that line before somewhere... 🤔
    No Freedom is not Slavery.

    Employers thinking they can evade paying a good wage by just ship people over in shitty conditions instead . . . you don't see the parallel or issue with that?
    Frankly I don't, and if you genuinely think the two are equivalent then you don't know much about the slave trade, or EU FoM, or quite likely both. All joking aside the comparison is insulting and simply confirms the extent to which Brexiteers like you have become detached from reality.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,772
    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    What was the process for this?

    Does rather remind me of "nothing done in X months" type of complaints, when the minimal process actually takes X+3 months. Often happens.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,281

    Charles said:

    PJH said:

    mickydroy said:

    IanB2 said:

    Robinson doing a robust job of combatting the PM's pitiful bluster on R4 this morning

    We may be a few years yet before the public see through the bluster and the jokes and realise they have been totally had. But they will and the fall will be brutal.
    I totally agree, that when the reckoning happens to the Tory party, it will be brutal, and they will go down to a drubbing, we have never seen before, but I have to add a but first, they need to win the next election first. Then the one after that they will be turned on, anyone but Tory party will walk it
    I've been thinking along these lines too. I reckon the next election will be a good one to lose, as I can see the Tories managing to kick most of the cans far enough down the road to get re-elected. Then the chickens will all come home to roost. (Sorry for mixed metaphors).

    If Labour win, they will get no credit from the actions they will have to take to clear up the mess (a bit like 1974).
    As it happens, Labour have too big a mountain to climb to win in 2023/4. They might deprive the Tories of majority. That is entirely possible especially if the economic shit coming is as dire as I think it will be. So a minority Labour administration gets the blame for failing to clear up the mess. I can see some of the more thoughtful Tories thinking that might be a better way to go.

    It’s never a good election to lose
    Except if you’re Ruth Davidson.

    According to the media, she won every election she ever lost.
    "You are HAL 9000 and I claim my five pounds."

    How many times have you robotically parroted that same message? She's not even a part of the conversation?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,966
    Sandpit said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    50m
    Watched the first episode of the New Labour documentary last night. Contrast between scope and scale of change back then, and cautious incrementalism under display from Keir Starmer, was brutal.

    ===


    Yep. Starmer only scratching the edges so far.

    At this point in Blair’s leadership, he was pushing through the Clause 4 reforms that defined Blairism in the eyes of the party.

    What’s Starmer’s Clause 4?
    Acceptance of Brexit - Make Brexit Work.
  • eekeek Posts: 15,790
    MattW said:

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    What was the process for this?

    Does rather remind me of "nothing done in X months" type of complaints, when the minimal process actually takes X+3 months. Often happens.
    Agencies / Companies pick up the phone and ask do you want to come back? Do you know anyone who can do x and wants to work in the UK?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,468

    The fact that JRM is up there says a lot about Tory Party members.

    Here's how it's gonna play out in 2024:

    Johnson narrowly fails to achieve a majority. Starmer cobbles together a 'government of losers'. Johnson resigns. JRM elected Tory leader. Starmer calls a 2nd election.

    Tory's toast or Tories toast?

    If JRM is the Tory Corbyn and Starmer tried to do a May 2017 snap election to get a landslide against him it may not work out as he planned, as May discovered too
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,281
    edited October 5
    IshmaelZ said:

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    EU freedom of movement = the Atlantic slave trade. Well, it's a view, as they say.
    Treating people as a commodity and shipping them around for minimum wage is a modern day comparable mindset, yes.
    They tend to ship themselves, though. As someone said, the only thing worse for poor countries than being exploited, is not being exploited. And it doesn't look like minimum wage when you turn it into zlotys.
    Yes getting a dozen plus people in a tiny shitty flat in order to all work for minimum wage were willingly shipped.

    But employers were facilitating the shipping. There were companies who were not even bothering to look in this country for staff as it was cheaper and easier to fly in staff from abroad and given them shitty beds in crowded flats and they had to work in conditions not exactly far from modern day slavery.

    That's why now that such migration has been halted the largest squealing is from employers who can't get away with shipping people like commodities instead of from people themselves.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,917

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    EU freedom of movement = the Atlantic slave trade. Well, it's a view, as they say.
    Treating people as a commodity and shipping them around for minimum wage is a modern day comparable mindset, yes.

    Giving people the right to live, work and study in 30 European countries is in no conceivable way comparable to slavery.

    Shipping people in so that 12 working adults live in a 3 bedroom home, in order to pay them a pittance because they're desperate and evade having to offer good terms and conditions is the same mindset and is comparable though.

    Shipping in implies those who came had no choice. They did. Slaves didn't. As a country, we chose to allow 12 adults to live in three bedroom houses and to make it as hard as possible for employees to organise collectively in order to secure good wages and working conditions. That had nothing to do with freedom of movement.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,963

    Sandpit said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    50m
    Watched the first episode of the New Labour documentary last night. Contrast between scope and scale of change back then, and cautious incrementalism under display from Keir Starmer, was brutal.

    ===


    Yep. Starmer only scratching the edges so far.

    At this point in Blair’s leadership, he was pushing through the Clause 4 reforms that defined Blairism in the eyes of the party.

    What’s Starmer’s Clause 4?
    Acceptance of Brexit - Make Brexit Work.
    That’s just a slogan with no detailled policy behind it.

    Blair’s Clause 4 charges were serious actual policy, that he had to do the hard work of selling to his own party.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 4,506
    MattW said:

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    What was the process for this?

    Does rather remind me of "nothing done in X months" type of complaints, when the minimal process actually takes X+3 months. Often happens.
    The PM says that they asked the hauliers to give them the names of the drivers they wanted visas for and the government would sort it. They provided 127. So far.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 6,444
    Charles said:

    The top of those rankings is a real horror show. Apart from Ben Wallace, who I have never heard of, Nadhim Zahawi is the first in the list who is not a genuine fruitcake or appalling second rate hack. When did the politicians in this country become so poor quality?

    Ben Wallace is the Defence secretary, who appears to be competent.
    Yes I can't comment on him as I have never heard of him.
    TBF I’m not sure I’d want the Defence Secretary on the front pages the whole time!
    Yes maybe it's one of those jobs where it's a mark of success if you're not a household name.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,088

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    EU freedom of movement = the Atlantic slave trade. Well, it's a view, as they say.
    Treating people as a commodity and shipping them around for minimum wage is a modern day comparable mindset, yes.

    Giving people the right to live, work and study in 30 European countries is in no conceivable way comparable to slavery.

    Shipping people in so that 12 working adults live in a 3 bedroom home, in order to pay them a pittance because they're desperate and evade having to offer good terms and conditions is the same mindset and is comparable though.
    Mind you, with Polish labourers, you never see watermelon smiles....
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 31,931
    edited October 5

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    All I believe @RP was saying was that there will inevitably be a perhaps painful transition period. Where things such as shortages, price hikes, etc will feature until a new equilibrium is reached.

    It is not a question of whether this high wage, high price, high tax economy is a good or bad thing; we can discuss that later when we look at the economics of such a strategy.

    It is a question of whether people realise that moving to a high wage, high price, high tax economy involves some "can't get to there from here" adjustments. They might be painful; we shall see. We will also see whether the govt can see through the pain without caving so we can get to a high wage, high...well you get the point.
    Yes. We have gone all the way through the stages of Brexiteer denial. This won't happen its just Project Fear, then this is absolutely not happening, then this is happening but its happening elsewhere please don't blame Brexit, now its a designed-in feature. Its good that we have growing shortages because the economy is in transition.

    So the test will be how many people will be happy to suffer the consequences of this transition. The promise was jam tomorrow, the offer has now been changed to an empty jam jar.

    The reason why the botched visas scheme is a problem is simple. In doing so the government has recognised that this transition is going to be bloody awful. But in not offering enough visas or visas on terms that anyone will accept it can't just blame industry who say "give us people" as the government agree they need people.

    They should do one of two things. Hold the line. Yes this will be a rough winter, yes there will shortages and outages and less stuff available will cost you more, but the jam we promised is coming. OR, try and pass the blame for the rough winter onto greedy business leaders whose fault it is. They appear to be riding both horses.
    Yep but as we are aware no government, no politician can admit blatantly obvious truths such as this will hurt but the destination may well be sunlit.

    Instead it is relying on people not noticing or caring at the planning stage (now), and also on people blindly parroting the strategy of saying this bug is now a feature (eg. @PT).

    Tomorrow will come, however and, as the oldest economic/mathematical rule states, you can't get to there from here.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 569
    edited October 5

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    EU freedom of movement = the Atlantic slave trade. Well, it's a view, as they say.
    Treating people as a commodity and shipping them around for minimum wage is a modern day comparable mindset, yes.

    Giving people the right to live, work and study in 30 European countries is in no conceivable way comparable to slavery.

    Exactly . The key thing is choice and if people want to move they can . This freedom now flushed down the toilet and celebrated as if it’s a big win by the Brexit cult . Brits are now second class citizens in Europe with less freedoms than 27 other countries in the EU .
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,281

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    EU freedom of movement = the Atlantic slave trade. Well, it's a view, as they say.
    Treating people as a commodity and shipping them around for minimum wage is a modern day comparable mindset, yes.

    Giving people the right to live, work and study in 30 European countries is in no conceivable way comparable to slavery.

    Shipping people in so that 12 working adults live in a 3 bedroom home, in order to pay them a pittance because they're desperate and evade having to offer good terms and conditions is the same mindset and is comparable though.

    Shipping in implies those who came had no choice. They did. Slaves didn't. As a country, we chose to allow 12 adults to live in three bedroom houses and to make it as hard as possible for employees to organise collectively in order to secure good wages and working conditions. That had nothing to do with freedom of movement.

    People can 'have a choice' to engage with modern day slavery, but that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

    Especially when employers have 'bonded' the people they've shipped in putting them in debt to pay for their shipping transport, accomodation etc and then make them work off their debts.

    You're in complete denial if you think modern day slavery doesn't exist and that free movement didn't facilitate it. And the reason all the complaints now are coming from employers and not people show who is suffering now the flow of modern day slavery has been brought to a halt.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,060

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    EU freedom of movement = the Atlantic slave trade. Well, it's a view, as they say.
    Treating people as a commodity and shipping them around for minimum wage is a modern day comparable mindset, yes.

    Giving people the right to live, work and study in 30 European countries is in no conceivable way comparable to slavery.

    Shipping people in so that 12 working adults live in a 3 bedroom home, in order to pay them a pittance because they're desperate and evade having to offer good terms and conditions is the same mindset and is comparable though.

    Shipping in implies those who came had no choice. They did. Slaves didn't. As a country, we chose to allow 12 adults to live in three bedroom houses and to make it as hard as possible for employees to organise collectively in order to secure good wages and working conditions. That had nothing to do with freedom of movement.

    Yes. FOM provides a labour pool when you can't attract local labour. The pay and conditions are not a direct result of FOM - we can still pay sane wages and not force 6 in a room conditions.

    "Ah but an endless labour pool allows people to be exploited". Yes and no - a restricted labour pool also offers the same opportunity of the legislative and societal framework allows it to be so. Have workers of whatever origin unionised and protected by working time regulations and HSE laws and the exploitation doesn't have to be there. It isn't elsewhere in western Europe with FOM.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 6,444
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    50m
    Watched the first episode of the New Labour documentary last night. Contrast between scope and scale of change back then, and cautious incrementalism under display from Keir Starmer, was brutal.

    ===


    Yep. Starmer only scratching the edges so far.

    At this point in Blair’s leadership, he was pushing through the Clause 4 reforms that defined Blairism in the eyes of the party.

    What’s Starmer’s Clause 4?
    Acceptance of Brexit - Make Brexit Work.
    That’s just a slogan with no detailled policy behind it.

    Blair’s Clause 4 charges were serious actual policy, that he had to do the hard work of selling to his own party.
    No they were pure centrist virtue signalling. Necessary, useful work perhaps, and I agreed with the change, but it really just aligned de jure and de facto policy positions.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,772

    MattW said:

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    What was the process for this?

    Does rather remind me of "nothing done in X months" type of complaints, when the minimal process actually takes X+3 months. Often happens.
    The PM says that they asked the hauliers to give them the names of the drivers they wanted visas for and the government would sort it. They provided 127. So far.
    So where is the 27 from?

    Are we in journos can't count territory? Or just reporting of very early numbers?

    :smile:
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,035
    edited October 5

    (((Dan Hodges)))
    @DPJHodges
    ·
    50m
    Watched the first episode of the New Labour documentary last night. Contrast between scope and scale of change back then, and cautious incrementalism under display from Keir Starmer, was brutal.

    ===


    Yep. Starmer only scratching the edges so far.

    Blair didn't stand to lead the Labour Party on, and wasn't elected on, a far left platform I suppose.

    Nor was he was committed to Trot politics as Starmer was in less opportunistic days.7

    Starmer is Kinnock, not Blair.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,917

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    EU freedom of movement = the Atlantic slave trade. Well, it's a view, as they say.
    Treating people as a commodity and shipping them around for minimum wage is a modern day comparable mindset, yes.

    Giving people the right to live, work and study in 30 European countries is in no conceivable way comparable to slavery.

    Shipping people in so that 12 working adults live in a 3 bedroom home, in order to pay them a pittance because they're desperate and evade having to offer good terms and conditions is the same mindset and is comparable though.

    Shipping in implies those who came had no choice. They did. Slaves didn't. As a country, we chose to allow 12 adults to live in three bedroom houses and to make it as hard as possible for employees to organise collectively in order to secure good wages and working conditions. That had nothing to do with freedom of movement.

    People can 'have a choice' to engage with modern day slavery, but that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

    Especially when employers have 'bonded' the people they've shipped in putting them in debt to pay for their shipping transport, accomodation etc and then make them work off their debts.

    You're in complete denial if you think modern day slavery doesn't exist and that free movement didn't facilitate it. And the reason all the complaints now are coming from employers and not people show who is suffering now the flow of modern day slavery has been brought to a halt.

    Slavery is illegal.

    I hear plenty of people complaining about not being able to find petrol or products in the shops.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,488

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    EU freedom of movement = the Atlantic slave trade. Well, it's a view, as they say.
    Treating people as a commodity and shipping them around for minimum wage is a modern day comparable mindset, yes.

    Giving people the right to live, work and study in 30 European countries is in no conceivable way comparable to slavery.

    Shipping people in so that 12 working adults live in a 3 bedroom home, in order to pay them a pittance because they're desperate and evade having to offer good terms and conditions is the same mindset and is comparable though.

    Shipping in implies those who came had no choice. They did. Slaves didn't. As a country, we chose to allow 12 adults to live in three bedroom houses and to make it as hard as possible for employees to organise collectively in order to secure good wages and working conditions. That had nothing to do with freedom of movement.

    People can 'have a choice' to engage with modern day slavery, but that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

    Especially when employers have 'bonded' the people they've shipped in putting them in debt to pay for their shipping transport, accomodation etc and then make them work off their debts.

    You're in complete denial if you think modern day slavery doesn't exist and that free movement didn't facilitate it. And the reason all the complaints now are coming from employers and not people show who is suffering now the flow of modern day slavery has been brought to a halt.
    But many/most of the victims in the UK are from outwith the EU.

    It's the lack of immigration controls, which you have justified to me on this site, that has been the problem.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,131

    Nigelb said:

    Mogg is also pretty popular - and has zero chance of becoming leader.
    I think Truss is more likely a decent trading bet than a real favourite for the leadership.

    He's been banging the drum pretty loudly against tax rises, probably the only one, that will make him popular.
    I wouldn't be so quick to write him off as a leadership contender. Similar to Boris Johnson, he has a persona/character well developed. He's popular with the membership. He's appeared on HIGNFY and is probably one of the best known members of Cabinet.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,060
    One thought I have had for years is that the government could have driven the kind of industrial transformation that Beaker is now such an advocate of. Instead of just piling on a Corporation Tax cut they could have made it conditional.

    Let big companies only pay 19% tax if they are a living wage employer. If they maintain no forced waiving of working time rules. If they give proper maternity and sick pay. That would have had a huge impact on pay and working conditions.

    Instead we have people like Johnson triumphing the slashing of both corporation taxes and corporate responsibility, then working why companies are paying low wages and imposing poor conditions as direct result of their own policies to deliver exactly that.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 6,444

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    EU freedom of movement = the Atlantic slave trade. Well, it's a view, as they say.
    Treating people as a commodity and shipping them around for minimum wage is a modern day comparable mindset, yes.

    Giving people the right to live, work and study in 30 European countries is in no conceivable way comparable to slavery.

    Shipping people in so that 12 working adults live in a 3 bedroom home, in order to pay them a pittance because they're desperate and evade having to offer good terms and conditions is the same mindset and is comparable though.

    Shipping in implies those who came had no choice. They did. Slaves didn't. As a country, we chose to allow 12 adults to live in three bedroom houses and to make it as hard as possible for employees to organise collectively in order to secure good wages and working conditions. That had nothing to do with freedom of movement.

    Yes. FOM provides a labour pool when you can't attract local labour. The pay and conditions are not a direct result of FOM - we can still pay sane wages and not force 6 in a room conditions.

    "Ah but an endless labour pool allows people to be exploited". Yes and no - a restricted labour pool also offers the same opportunity of the legislative and societal framework allows it to be so. Have workers of whatever origin unionised and protected by working time regulations and HSE laws and the exploitation doesn't have to be there. It isn't elsewhere in western Europe with FOM.
    Yes the practices that (ultra free marketeer) PT is attacking are simply the results of unfettered free market capitalism. My first job, back in the day when Tories decried the minimum wage as a tax on jobs and an attack on freedom, paid £1.50 an hour. Not a Pole or a Romanian in sight. Just good old fashioned British exploitative employers. Free market capitalism at work.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 35,917
    nico679 said:

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    EU freedom of movement = the Atlantic slave trade. Well, it's a view, as they say.
    Treating people as a commodity and shipping them around for minimum wage is a modern day comparable mindset, yes.

    Giving people the right to live, work and study in 30 European countries is in no conceivable way comparable to slavery.

    Exactly . The key thing is choice and if people want to move they can . This freedom now flushed down the toilet and celebrated as if it’s a big win by the Brexit cult . Brits are now second class citizens in Europe with less freedoms than 27 other countries in the EU .

    We are second class citizens in our own country. Anyone who holds an Irish passport in the UK has won life's great lottery!

    This is a profoundly illiberal government that is systematically taking rights away from UK citizens - freedom of movement is just one.

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,689

    Charles said:

    The top of those rankings is a real horror show. Apart from Ben Wallace, who I have never heard of, Nadhim Zahawi is the first in the list who is not a genuine fruitcake or appalling second rate hack. When did the politicians in this country become so poor quality?

    Ben Wallace is the Defence secretary, who appears to be competent.
    Yes I can't comment on him as I have never heard of him.
    TBF I’m not sure I’d want the Defence Secretary on the front pages the whole time!
    Yes maybe it's one of those jobs where it's a mark of success if you're not a household name.
    He had a run in with Carrie about flying pet dogs out of Afghanistan.

    That withdrawal was only a month ago, but we seem to have forgotten all about it. Doubt the Afghans have.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,488
    On topic, Stephen Bush of Statesman's email this morning - an interesting comment:

    "The central reason why Patel's stock is not as high as it once was among Conservative activists is the perception that her department is failing: that she is unable to prevent more people coming here on boats in search of a better life, that we have de facto decriminalised most crimes other than murder and speeding, that the Metropolitan Police is poorly run, and so on.

    Now, the wheel of politics has plenty of turns and it's possible that this time next year we're once again talking about how much activists and MPs love Priti Patel. But the concern among some MPs who believe - rightly in my view - that Patel was integral to their 2019 re-election is that the fall in the Home Secretary's stock among party activists is the first sign that the government's advantage as far as crime and security is concerned might once again be about to come under serious threat in the country as a whole."
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,281

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    EU freedom of movement = the Atlantic slave trade. Well, it's a view, as they say.
    Treating people as a commodity and shipping them around for minimum wage is a modern day comparable mindset, yes.

    Giving people the right to live, work and study in 30 European countries is in no conceivable way comparable to slavery.

    Shipping people in so that 12 working adults live in a 3 bedroom home, in order to pay them a pittance because they're desperate and evade having to offer good terms and conditions is the same mindset and is comparable though.

    Shipping in implies those who came had no choice. They did. Slaves didn't. As a country, we chose to allow 12 adults to live in three bedroom houses and to make it as hard as possible for employees to organise collectively in order to secure good wages and working conditions. That had nothing to do with freedom of movement.

    People can 'have a choice' to engage with modern day slavery, but that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

    Especially when employers have 'bonded' the people they've shipped in putting them in debt to pay for their shipping transport, accomodation etc and then make them work off their debts.

    You're in complete denial if you think modern day slavery doesn't exist and that free movement didn't facilitate it. And the reason all the complaints now are coming from employers and not people show who is suffering now the flow of modern day slavery has been brought to a halt.

    Slavery is illegal.

    I hear plenty of people complaining about not being able to find petrol or products in the shops.

    Slavery is illegal.

    Modern day slavery absolutely does exist.

    If you think it doesn't, you need to educate yourself.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,281
    edited October 5

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    EU freedom of movement = the Atlantic slave trade. Well, it's a view, as they say.
    Treating people as a commodity and shipping them around for minimum wage is a modern day comparable mindset, yes.

    Giving people the right to live, work and study in 30 European countries is in no conceivable way comparable to slavery.

    Shipping people in so that 12 working adults live in a 3 bedroom home, in order to pay them a pittance because they're desperate and evade having to offer good terms and conditions is the same mindset and is comparable though.

    Shipping in implies those who came had no choice. They did. Slaves didn't. As a country, we chose to allow 12 adults to live in three bedroom houses and to make it as hard as possible for employees to organise collectively in order to secure good wages and working conditions. That had nothing to do with freedom of movement.

    Yes. FOM provides a labour pool when you can't attract local labour. The pay and conditions are not a direct result of FOM - we can still pay sane wages and not force 6 in a room conditions.

    "Ah but an endless labour pool allows people to be exploited". Yes and no - a restricted labour pool also offers the same opportunity of the legislative and societal framework allows it to be so. Have workers of whatever origin unionised and protected by working time regulations and HSE laws and the exploitation doesn't have to be there. It isn't elsewhere in western Europe with FOM.
    Yes the practices that (ultra free marketeer) PT is attacking are simply the results of unfettered free market capitalism. My first job, back in the day when Tories decried the minimum wage as a tax on jobs and an attack on freedom, paid £1.50 an hour. Not a Pole or a Romanian in sight. Just good old fashioned British exploitative employers. Free market capitalism at work.
    I have no problems with the market finding a free market rate and £1.50 per hour before the minimum wage existed isn't that different to the £2.00 I was paid in my first job post-minimum wage.

    But employers paying to ship people around like they are commodities and putting people into debt to pay for them to be shipped around . . . I don't view that as part of the free market.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,060

    eek said:

    I am shocked.

    Only 27 fuel tanker drivers from the EU have applied to work in Britain under the government’s emergency scheme to tackle the petrol crisis, ministers have been told.

    It means only a fraction of the 300 visas available for HGV drivers in the fuel industry are set to be taken up in a setback to efforts to replenish supplies.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/supply-crisis-military-moves-in-with-tanker-deliveries-to-petrol-stations-d00gls0bc

    I'm surprised they actually managed to find 27.
    Who would have thought Brexit and the associated rhetoric would put off people coming to the UK.
    The problem for the government is that they have both caved into pressure to make the points-based migration system offer visas to people we need, and have made it so appallingly unattractive that nobody is interested.

    The clear aim of the new migration system is not to allow migration. Hence all the comments over the last few days about the need to transition the economy. But rhetoric doesn't put fuel in petrol tanks or turkeys on the Christmas table, so better use the new migration system.

    The problem is that by making it 5,000 only and fuck off at Christmas, we are being shunned. Saying "we need a painful transition, suck it up for Britain" would be one thing. But instead they panicked, tried to open the door and nobody is coming. Which makes it their fault. Had they toed the line and said no, they could have tried to blame industry. Now they can't as they have accepted that people are needed.

    No wonder he quoted the Muppet Show. They really are.
    Who's that a problem for?

    Its a problem for Remoaners who wanted freedom of movement restored.
    Its a problem for employers who wanted a return to people being shipped like a commodity in a 21st century triangular trade.

    For those who want employers to improve both pay and conditions for their employees - and conditions are reportedly just as critical as pay - this is not a problem.

    The 'door' to bringing people in as a solution has been opened and behind that door was a goat not a car. Time for those who were calling for movement as the solution to switch.

    Deal with pay and conditions. Quit whining.
    EU freedom of movement = the Atlantic slave trade. Well, it's a view, as they say.
    Treating people as a commodity and shipping them around for minimum wage is a modern day comparable mindset, yes.

    Giving people the right to live, work and study in 30 European countries is in no conceivable way comparable to slavery.

    Shipping people in so that 12 working adults live in a 3 bedroom home, in order to pay them a pittance because they're desperate and evade having to offer good terms and conditions is the same mindset and is comparable though.

    Shipping in implies those who came had no choice. They did. Slaves didn't. As a country, we chose to allow 12 adults to live in three bedroom houses and to make it as hard as possible for employees to organise collectively in order to secure good wages and working conditions. That had nothing to do with freedom of movement.

    People can 'have a choice' to engage with modern day slavery, but that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

    Especially when employers have 'bonded' the people they've shipped in putting them in debt to pay for their shipping transport, accomodation etc and then make them work off their debts.

    You're in complete denial if you think modern day slavery doesn't exist and that free movement didn't facilitate it. And the reason all the complaints now are coming from employers and not people show who is suffering now the flow of modern day slavery has been brought to a halt.

    Slavery is illegal.

    I hear plenty of people complaining about not being able to find petrol or products in the shops.

    Slavery is illegal.

    Modern day slavery absolutely does exist.

    If you think it doesn't, you need to educate yourself.
    There have been plenty of cases of trafficked women having their passports taken and forced to work as prostitutes. Literal sex slaves. "you need to educate yourself" - FFS why do you post this self-satisfied guff?
This discussion has been closed.