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What Now? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited October 1 in General
imageWhat Now? – politicalbetting.com

If not already done, the sentencing remarks of Lord Justice Fulford should be read by every MP, Cabinet Minister, police chief, Police & Crime Commissioner and anyone else involved in our criminal justice system. Paragraphs 19 and 23 set out eloquently – in words which should be taken particularly to heart by the Home Secretary and the Justice Secretary – the importance of law and order and what happens when trust in the police is undermined. As the Judge put it – “the authority of the police is to a truly significant extent dependant on the public’s consent and the power of officers to detain, arrest and otherwise control important aspects of our lives is only effective because of the critical trust that we repose in the constabulary, that they will act lawfully and in the best interests of society.” That trust has been severely undermined by Couzens’ crimes. Read Sarah Everard mother’s statement if you need proof: “In the evenings, at the time she was abducted, I let out a silent scream: Don’t get in the car, Sarah. Don’t believe him. Run!” It will not be just her who thinks the police cannot be believed. The damage done to policing is incalculable.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,241
    Off-topic:

    An interesting video from an ex-lorry driver on why he won't return to the business:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa1LfTziVBo

    TL;DR: he loves driving lorries, but it's just not a very pleasant job.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,241
    On-topic: some rambling early-morning thoughts.

    Thanks, Ms Free, for an interesting threader.

    There's so much to be said about this case, and the way it reflects on the (lack of) professionalism within the police. It's not a case of lack of funding, or of bobbies on the beat: it's a case of a culture within the force that appears to be totally borken.

    And that starts at the top.

    I also think the idea of bringing in senior officers who are not police is a good one. The greasy pole appears to well and truly in place within the police forces, and fresh blood - and fresh eyes - at the top could be positive.

    The public also need to accept that policing is a difficult job, one many of us would not want to do. Imagine having to tell someone that their child has died. Or deal with the scene of a tragic accident with multiple fatalities. Imagine having to deal with people you would not want to associate with in normal circumstances - people who range from wrong 'uns to the malignly evil. Imagine going to work knowing there is a chance you might be spat at, hit, stabbed, or even, in extreme cases, killed on duty.

    But police also have considerable power over us all, and that means they should always fulfil their roles professionally and fairly, according to the law.

    Mostly that happens. But 'mostly' is not good enough.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,368
    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,726

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,241
    felix said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
    We're talking about Dickson of Stockholm Green here. In his mind, the biggest crime in the world is being English ...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,130
    edited October 1
    felix said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
    Quite. That would mean a huge institutional reform not necessarily targeted at improving police culture. It’s an argument for another day.

    One thing which should certainly be dome is a mandatory re-vetting of officers who move from one force to another, something not currently done.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248
    edited October 1
    One other obvious step to tighten things up as discussed on previous threads by @Stuartinromford is to demand a clean enhanced DBS for all officers as a condition of employment.

    That would have caught Couzens and I think the one who killed Ian Tomlinson as well.

    It would also have blocked Dick from being Commissioner.

    It’s extraordinary that that's required of schoolteachers but not police officers.

    Otherwise @Cyclefree has covered most of the points with her usual eloquence. I am wondering if the only way out of this mess would be to stand down the Met and start again. But no politician would have the courage to do that.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,744

    I also think the idea of bringing in senior officers who are not police is a good one. The greasy pole appears to well and truly in place within the police forces, and fresh blood - and fresh eyes - at the top could be positive.

    All good stuff Mr Jessop, but I want to highlight this bit. One person who never gets mentioned is Tom Winsor:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Winsor

    A close friend of mine is a police officer and he has zero respect for Winsor on the grounds that he has no idea what it's like to be a cop.

    I think an outside perspective is always helpful, but imposing non-police management on the rank and file could lead to outright revolt.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248
    edited October 1
    tlg86 said:

    I also think the idea of bringing in senior officers who are not police is a good one. The greasy pole appears to well and truly in place within the police forces, and fresh blood - and fresh eyes - at the top could be positive.

    All good stuff Mr Jessop, but I want to highlight this bit. One person who never gets mentioned is Tom Winsor:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Winsor

    A close friend of mine is a police officer and he has zero respect for Winsor on the grounds that he has no idea what it's like to be a cop.

    I think an outside perspective is always helpful, but imposing non-police management on the rank and file could lead to outright revolt.
    Until 1948 all senior police officers were ex-army (or later, Air Force) imported directly into the top ranks.

    We could revive this process and make @Dura_Ace Commissioner* on the basis that everyone in the Met would at least get roasted - ah, hang on, speeding offences. As you were.

    *Yes, I know he was in the navy.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,744
    @ydoethur - I'd be careful talking about the Tomlinson case like that. The cop was found not guilty (yes, I know, unlawful killing, but still).
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,535

    felix said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
    We're talking about Dickson of Stockholm Green here. In his mind, the biggest crime in the world is being English ...
    He is also very forgiving of a police force that has become a tool of an SNP state....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248
    tlg86 said:

    @ydoethur - I'd be careful talking about the Tomlinson case like that. The cop was found not guilty (yes, I know, unlawful killing, but still).

    I don’t think there’s any dispute that he killed him. If I’d said ‘murdered’ you would have a point.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,744
    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    @ydoethur - I'd be careful talking about the Tomlinson case like that. The cop was found not guilty (yes, I know, unlawful killing, but still).

    I don’t think there’s any dispute that he killed him. If I’d said ‘murdered’ you would have a point.
    Well, the jury disagree with you. And their view is all that matters.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,241
    tlg86 said:

    I also think the idea of bringing in senior officers who are not police is a good one. The greasy pole appears to well and truly in place within the police forces, and fresh blood - and fresh eyes - at the top could be positive.

    All good stuff Mr Jessop, but I want to highlight this bit. One person who never gets mentioned is Tom Winsor:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Winsor

    A close friend of mine is a police officer and he has zero respect for Winsor on the grounds that he has no idea what it's like to be a cop.

    I think an outside perspective is always helpful, but imposing non-police management on the rank and file could lead to outright revolt.
    Promoting through the ranks isn't working, either. From what I've read, the role of (say) Chief Constable is a world away from polished-shoes-on-the-ground policing, with very different skills required.

    The number of Chief Constable / Deputy Chief Constables / Assistant Chief Constables that have been sacked or suspended is quite staggering.

    The troubled Cleveland force, for instance, has had seven Chief Constables in ten years...
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-57929724
    The current guy's predecessor is facing a few problems over the Heath affair. But after resigning, he went on to be an advisor to another force's PCC. Revolving door, anyone?
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-58071728
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248
    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    @ydoethur - I'd be careful talking about the Tomlinson case like that. The cop was found not guilty (yes, I know, unlawful killing, but still).

    I don’t think there’s any dispute that he killed him. If I’d said ‘murdered’ you would have a point.
    Well, the jury disagree with you. And their view is all that matters.
    As I remember they said that he died of a heart attack due to the actions of the officer. So they didn’t dispute that he killed him, just that it wasn’t the sole cause of death.

    Wasn’t there controversy about that because he’d been accused of using excessive force before? Or am I conflating that with the case in Lancashire where a woman was repeatedly punched in the face?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248
    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    @ydoethur - I'd be careful talking about the Tomlinson case like that. The cop was found not guilty (yes, I know, unlawful killing, but still).

    I don’t think there’s any dispute that he killed him. If I’d said ‘murdered’ you would have a point.
    Well, the jury disagree with you. And their view is all that matters.
    I don’t know who off topiced that, but it wasn’t me. It seems entirely relevant to the header even if I think the view expressed isn’t correct.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248

    felix said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
    We're talking about Dickson of Stockholm Green here. In his mind, the biggest crime in the world is being English ...
    He is also very forgiving of a police force that has become a tool of an SNP state....
    Wasn’t just Starmer and Johnson who had toolmakers for fathers…
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,490
    Hear hear.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,744
    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    @ydoethur - I'd be careful talking about the Tomlinson case like that. The cop was found not guilty (yes, I know, unlawful killing, but still).

    I don’t think there’s any dispute that he killed him. If I’d said ‘murdered’ you would have a point.
    Well, the jury disagree with you. And their view is all that matters.
    As I remember they said that he died of a heart attack due to the actions of the officer. So they didn’t dispute that he killed him, just that it wasn’t the sole cause of death.

    Wasn’t there controversy about that because he’d been accused of using excessive force before? Or am I conflating that with the case in Lancashire where a woman was repeatedly punched in the face?
    Ultimately, everyone dies of cardiac arrest. I'd just be careful about saying "he killed him". Perhaps his actions were the straw that broke the camel's back, but so what? He was acquitted of manslaughter, which is all that matters.

    Doesn't mean he should have been in the police, of course.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,368
    felix said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
    Nope. Don’t be silly.

    However, there are many other advantages to national police forces, not least the crucial cultural issue Cyclefree raises. Start with a blank slate in cultural terms, and keep the old shits out of the new organisation.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,573
    Good thread header Cyclefree. There are issues in our Police that really need tackling, though at least we can all agree they're nothing like some other nations like the United States ...

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ... Oh.

    But seriously, just because things are worse elsewhere, and could be worse here, is not a reason not to demand better here.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,368

    felix said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
    We're talking about Dickson of Stockholm Green here. In his mind, the biggest crime in the world is being English ...
    He is also very forgiving of a police force that has become a tool of an SNP state....
    *All* police forces are tools of their respective states. And the Scottish state is the tool of the Scottish people, not of any one party. They can choose whoever they like to run their state. They chose the SNP for the job, as recently as May. Lovely fresh mandate.

    (… and pedantically, it is currently an SNP/Green state.)
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,856
    Morning.

    Excellent piece.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,368

    felix said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
    We're talking about Dickson of Stockholm Green here. In his mind, the biggest crime in the world is being English ...
    England used to be the country of the stiff upper lip. Now it is characterised by immense chips on shoulders.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248

    felix said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
    We're talking about Dickson of Stockholm Green here. In his mind, the biggest crime in the world is being English ...
    He is also very forgiving of a police force that has become a tool of an SNP state....
    *All* police forces are tools of their respective states. And the Scottish state is the tool of the Scottish people, not of any one party. They can choose whoever they like to run their state. They chose the SNP for the job, as recently as May. Lovely fresh mandate.

    (… and pedantically, it is currently an SNP/Green state.)
    I love the smell of partisan naivety in the morning :smile:

    Have a good day.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,319
    You: Oh but Alistair, stop saying the US is a short step away from disaster and that the GOP plan to steal the next election, you are besmirching the fine name of a noble Party who are dedicated to democracy

    Reality: https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1441395730631954434?s=19
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,920
    edited October 1
    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    I also think the idea of bringing in senior officers who are not police is a good one. The greasy pole appears to well and truly in place within the police forces, and fresh blood - and fresh eyes - at the top could be positive.

    All good stuff Mr Jessop, but I want to highlight this bit. One person who never gets mentioned is Tom Winsor:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Winsor

    A close friend of mine is a police officer and he has zero respect for Winsor on the grounds that he has no idea what it's like to be a cop.

    I think an outside perspective is always helpful, but imposing non-police management on the rank and file could lead to outright revolt.
    Until 1948 all senior police officers were ex-army (or later, Air Force) imported directly into the top ranks.

    We could revive this process and make @Dura_Ace Commissioner* on the basis that everyone in the Met would at least get roasted - ah, hang on, speeding offences. As you were.

    *Yes, I know he was in the navy.
    I've also been arrested though never charged for assault (hunt sabbing) and firearms offences (administrative cock up not by me).

    It's quite a CV.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,119
    Yes we can reform the police or make whatever changes you like. But they reflect the culture of the people they police, and sadly there remains a men's rights over women's rights basic thread which we haven't yet eradicated. As there is with endemic racism.

    I hope that horror show cases like this can make people Stop and Think. One starter for 10 is the response to lunatics who start attacking women or worse. The focus should not be on women, how they can protect themselves, not walk there, don't wear that, don't be "provocative".

    The focus should be on men and by men. Don't ban men from the streets as one group suggested yesterday, the opposite. Reclaim the streets. Most men are not bad, we despise the bad ones as much. So if someone is prowling, we should be out there. Don't give safe space to these predators, leave them nowhere to hide. We can make negative, derogatory and superior attitudes by men towards women ("incel" FFS like its their right to have a woman sleep with them) as socially unacceptable as drink driving.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,972
    Great piece. I have no idea what's in it for Priti Patel in keeping her in place.

    I can only assume she has too many other battles going on, and isn't confident she'd find any obviously better candidate.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,744

    Yes we can reform the police or make whatever changes you like. But they reflect the culture of the people they police, and sadly there remains a men's rights over women's rights basic thread which we haven't yet eradicated. As there is with endemic racism.

    I hope that horror show cases like this can make people Stop and Think. One starter for 10 is the response to lunatics who start attacking women or worse. The focus should not be on women, how they can protect themselves, not walk there, don't wear that, don't be "provocative".

    The focus should be on men and by men. Don't ban men from the streets as one group suggested yesterday, the opposite. Reclaim the streets. Most men are not bad, we despise the bad ones as much. So if someone is prowling, we should be out there. Don't give safe space to these predators, leave them nowhere to hide. We can make negative, derogatory and superior attitudes by men towards women ("incel" FFS like its their right to have a woman sleep with them) as socially unacceptable as drink driving.

    BiB - are you advocating vigilantism? I can assure you that one way to really piss of the police is to do that!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,241

    felix said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
    We're talking about Dickson of Stockholm Green here. In his mind, the biggest crime in the world is being English ...
    England used to be the country of the stiff upper lip. Now it is characterised by immense chips on shoulders.
    LOL. Yet again, you show us your English expertise, through the prism of your pro-Scottish mania from your home in Sweden ... ;)
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,744

    Great piece. I have no idea what's in it for Priti Patel in keeping her in place.

    I can only assume she has too many other battles going on, and isn't confident she'd find any obviously better candidate.

    Perhaps no one wanted the job before yesterday. It's easy to apologise for the past (see Tony Blair and David Cameron), but still. Can't have been much fun for Ms Dick.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,119
    tlg86 said:

    Yes we can reform the police or make whatever changes you like. But they reflect the culture of the people they police, and sadly there remains a men's rights over women's rights basic thread which we haven't yet eradicated. As there is with endemic racism.

    I hope that horror show cases like this can make people Stop and Think. One starter for 10 is the response to lunatics who start attacking women or worse. The focus should not be on women, how they can protect themselves, not walk there, don't wear that, don't be "provocative".

    The focus should be on men and by men. Don't ban men from the streets as one group suggested yesterday, the opposite. Reclaim the streets. Most men are not bad, we despise the bad ones as much. So if someone is prowling, we should be out there. Don't give safe space to these predators, leave them nowhere to hide. We can make negative, derogatory and superior attitudes by men towards women ("incel" FFS like its their right to have a woman sleep with them) as socially unacceptable as drink driving.

    BiB - are you advocating vigilantism? I can assure you that one way to really piss of the police is to do that!
    No no no, not vigilantism at all. Predators operate in the shadows. Lets shine some light. If we have people on the streets there are less corners for them to be.

    The police ask for volunteers sometimes for searches. Do the same when there have been assaults. Walk the streets with the police. A community in solidarity, not in fear.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,972

    Great piece. I have no idea what's in it for Priti Patel in keeping her in place.

    I can only assume she has too many other battles going on, and isn't confident she'd find any obviously better candidate.

    Edit: also if she sacks Dick for her failings maybe she fears there will be more pressure for her to go for hers.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,798
    Alistair said:

    You: Oh but Alistair, stop saying the US is a short step away from disaster and that the GOP plan to steal the next election, you are besmirching the fine name of a noble Party who are dedicated to democracy

    Reality: https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1441395730631954434?s=19

    If Trump won, he can’t stand again.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,304
    "Instead, we have a Dick as Head of what is meant to be our premier police force."

    Possible typo? Seems to be a superfluous "as" in this sentence.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,744

    tlg86 said:

    Yes we can reform the police or make whatever changes you like. But they reflect the culture of the people they police, and sadly there remains a men's rights over women's rights basic thread which we haven't yet eradicated. As there is with endemic racism.

    I hope that horror show cases like this can make people Stop and Think. One starter for 10 is the response to lunatics who start attacking women or worse. The focus should not be on women, how they can protect themselves, not walk there, don't wear that, don't be "provocative".

    The focus should be on men and by men. Don't ban men from the streets as one group suggested yesterday, the opposite. Reclaim the streets. Most men are not bad, we despise the bad ones as much. So if someone is prowling, we should be out there. Don't give safe space to these predators, leave them nowhere to hide. We can make negative, derogatory and superior attitudes by men towards women ("incel" FFS like its their right to have a woman sleep with them) as socially unacceptable as drink driving.

    BiB - are you advocating vigilantism? I can assure you that one way to really piss of the police is to do that!
    No no no, not vigilantism at all. Predators operate in the shadows. Lets shine some light. If we have people on the streets there are less corners for them to be.

    The police ask for volunteers sometimes for searches. Do the same when there have been assaults. Walk the streets with the police. A community in solidarity, not in fear.
    How is a woman supposed to differentiate between men who are out walking the streets for their protection and potential attackers?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 4,269
    Is the Met simply too big to be managed, let alone reformed? A county out in the sticks is a couple of boroughs in London.

    My concern with dumping Dick is that I can imagine a charismatic cleaner-upper being appointed and that charisma dissipating as you go down the layers and out from the centre of town. And then we're back at self-regulation by individual coppers, which is clearly not working.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654
    edited October 1
    I am surprised as Ms Cyclefree's insult at the end.

    If I think back to the 60s and 70s , bar the obvious loons, we had respect for our politicians and principles in charge of bodies such as the police.

    Changing the deckchairs will not help. Trust and respect has largely gone and isn't coming back anytime soon.

    I feel sorry for grass roots cops who continually arrest people yet the justice system does everything possible to avoid locking them up.

    Perhaps that's because drugs are more freely available in prison than outside....





  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 5,614

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    You do know that the US has about as many police forces as Scotland has police officers, don’t you?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,573
    Jonathan said:

    Alistair said:

    You: Oh but Alistair, stop saying the US is a short step away from disaster and that the GOP plan to steal the next election, you are besmirching the fine name of a noble Party who are dedicated to democracy

    Reality: https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1441395730631954434?s=19

    If Trump won, he can’t stand again.
    Technically speaking isn't the limit two terms, not two victories?

    So if you were to be batshit crazy and operating from the premise that he'd won a second victory, then by 'the deep state' denying him his second term and inaugurating Biden, he'd now be entitled to seek a third 'victory'.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 4,755

    felix said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
    We're talking about Dickson of Stockholm Green here. In his mind, the biggest crime in the world is being English ...
    England used to be the country of the stiff upper lip. Now it is characterised by immense chips on shoulders.
    LOL. Yet again, you show us your English expertise, through the prism of your pro-Scottish mania from your home in Sweden ... ;)
    I am also not sure Russia is a good example, only recently renamed from the Soviet era militsiya, and Italy I know has local police forces as well as the Caribeneri.

    Having local police forces responding to local needs is a central tenet of English liberalism, I find the idea of a single state-run police force rather troubling. Who polices Police Scotland? And if we had a single police force, it would be basically the Met writ large, and, er, that's what we seem to be saying is corrupt and incompetent.

    Scotland of course is moving towards being a one-party state, so a single national police force makes sense.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 16,798

    Jonathan said:

    Alistair said:

    You: Oh but Alistair, stop saying the US is a short step away from disaster and that the GOP plan to steal the next election, you are besmirching the fine name of a noble Party who are dedicated to democracy

    Reality: https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1441395730631954434?s=19

    If Trump won, he can’t stand again.
    Technically speaking isn't the limit two terms, not two victories?

    So if you were to be batshit crazy and operating from the premise that he'd won a second victory, then by 'the deep state' denying him his second term and inaugurating Biden, he'd now be entitled to seek a third 'victory'.
    I would not put anything past that crowd,
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,573

    felix said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
    We're talking about Dickson of Stockholm Green here. In his mind, the biggest crime in the world is being English ...
    England used to be the country of the stiff upper lip. Now it is characterised by immense chips on shoulders.
    LOL. Yet again, you show us your English expertise, through the prism of your pro-Scottish mania from your home in Sweden ... ;)
    I am also not sure Russia is a good example, only recently renamed from the Soviet era militsiya, and Italy I know has local police forces as well as the Caribeneri.

    Having local police forces responding to local needs is a central tenet of English liberalism, I find the idea of a single state-run police force rather troubling. Who polices Police Scotland? And if we had a single police force, it would be basically the Met writ large, and, er, that's what we seem to be saying is corrupt and incompetent.

    Scotland of course is moving towards being a one-party state, so a single national police force makes sense.
    Yes the idea that the Met could be fixed by making it nationwide is . . . interesting to say the least.

    Try a new head of the Met but if that doesn't work then breaking up the Met might be a better solution.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,130

    Great piece. I have no idea what's in it for Priti Patel in keeping her in place.

    I can only assume she has too many other battles going on, and isn't confident she'd find any obviously better candidate.

    So effectively another abdication of responsibility.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,119
    DavidL said:

    For me, the problem is not so much the shocking revelations of this case, it is the mindset of an institution, and indeed a political class, that thought Cressida Dick was even a credible candidate for the position of Head of the Met in the first place. From the manslaughter of Charles de Menezes, the jaw dropping incompetence in Operation Midland and the blatant and identified obstruction of the Morgan inquiry it is painfully obvious that she should have been sacked long before she made the top chair. Is it really any surprise that the incompetence, genuinely weird political misjudgements (Extinction rebellion and the handling of the Sarah Everard commemoration to name just 2 examples) have continued?

    Was the fact that she was a woman and gay more important to our right on politicians? I mean, for god's sake. The decision to renew her contract not even a month ago with this pending, is one of the more inexplicable political decisions in recent times. Dick is not the only one who should be considering her position.

    I'm not here to defend the Commissioner - would be very happy to see her resign. But there does appear to be a concerted campaign against her that is outsized vs the issue. Would - an example - a different commissioner have meant that this "man" would have been screened and caught out before he committed this heinous crime?
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,726
    A lot of very understandable knee jerk reactions to the horror of this awful man. My own view is that most people and policeman are not monsters. Some are and it's fiendishly difficult to prevent them doing their worst.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,304
    edited October 1

    DavidL said:

    For me, the problem is not so much the shocking revelations of this case, it is the mindset of an institution, and indeed a political class, that thought Cressida Dick was even a credible candidate for the position of Head of the Met in the first place. From the manslaughter of Charles de Menezes, the jaw dropping incompetence in Operation Midland and the blatant and identified obstruction of the Morgan inquiry it is painfully obvious that she should have been sacked long before she made the top chair. Is it really any surprise that the incompetence, genuinely weird political misjudgements (Extinction rebellion and the handling of the Sarah Everard commemoration to name just 2 examples) have continued?

    Was the fact that she was a woman and gay more important to our right on politicians? I mean, for god's sake. The decision to renew her contract not even a month ago with this pending, is one of the more inexplicable political decisions in recent times. Dick is not the only one who should be considering her position.

    I'm not here to defend the Commissioner - would be very happy to see her resign. But there does appear to be a concerted campaign against her that is outsized vs the issue. Would - an example - a different commissioner have meant that this "man" would have been screened and caught out before he committed this heinous crime?
    Her personal culpability in this particular case seems much, much less than in the first 3 examples that I have given where she was explicitly in charge and found seriously wanting in judgement, common sense and decency.

    And, in fairness, the police investigation in this case seems to have been exemplary with particular officers named for high praise in the sentencing remarks as @Carnyx pointed out yesterday. Rather than this the report on the Morgan case which named her in terms as a major source of the obstruction should have resulted in dismissal.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,573

    DavidL said:

    For me, the problem is not so much the shocking revelations of this case, it is the mindset of an institution, and indeed a political class, that thought Cressida Dick was even a credible candidate for the position of Head of the Met in the first place. From the manslaughter of Charles de Menezes, the jaw dropping incompetence in Operation Midland and the blatant and identified obstruction of the Morgan inquiry it is painfully obvious that she should have been sacked long before she made the top chair. Is it really any surprise that the incompetence, genuinely weird political misjudgements (Extinction rebellion and the handling of the Sarah Everard commemoration to name just 2 examples) have continued?

    Was the fact that she was a woman and gay more important to our right on politicians? I mean, for god's sake. The decision to renew her contract not even a month ago with this pending, is one of the more inexplicable political decisions in recent times. Dick is not the only one who should be considering her position.

    I'm not here to defend the Commissioner - would be very happy to see her resign. But there does appear to be a concerted campaign against her that is outsized vs the issue. Would - an example - a different commissioner have meant that this "man" would have been screened and caught out before he committed this heinous crime?
    This alone would not for me be reason for her to resign. As horrendous as it is, if none of the red flags had reached her desk there's no way she could have known.

    This, combined with the culture she's allowed to be in the Met, combined with the cover-up the Morgan Inquiry found, combined with de Menzies, combined with Midland . . . different story.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 14,119

    DavidL said:

    For me, the problem is not so much the shocking revelations of this case, it is the mindset of an institution, and indeed a political class, that thought Cressida Dick was even a credible candidate for the position of Head of the Met in the first place. From the manslaughter of Charles de Menezes, the jaw dropping incompetence in Operation Midland and the blatant and identified obstruction of the Morgan inquiry it is painfully obvious that she should have been sacked long before she made the top chair. Is it really any surprise that the incompetence, genuinely weird political misjudgements (Extinction rebellion and the handling of the Sarah Everard commemoration to name just 2 examples) have continued?

    Was the fact that she was a woman and gay more important to our right on politicians? I mean, for god's sake. The decision to renew her contract not even a month ago with this pending, is one of the more inexplicable political decisions in recent times. Dick is not the only one who should be considering her position.

    I'm not here to defend the Commissioner - would be very happy to see her resign. But there does appear to be a concerted campaign against her that is outsized vs the issue. Would - an example - a different commissioner have meant that this "man" would have been screened and caught out before he committed this heinous crime?
    This alone would not for me be reason for her to resign. As horrendous as it is, if none of the red flags had reached her desk there's no way she could have known.

    This, combined with the culture she's allowed to be in the Met, combined with the cover-up the Morgan Inquiry found, combined with de Menzies, combined with Midland . . . different story.
    Yes, so we're back into the institutional culture problem. As the police (all forces) draw more of certain groups of people in than other groups there is a risk of being unbalanced. All the more reason why the leadership from the very top needs to be robust.

    For me though this does feel like a bit of a blind alley. This case was so exceptional because it was that crime by a serving police officer - hence the exceptional sentence. If only the crime was an exception - it isn't. It isn't the police culture we need to change, but our own.

    Until women are equal to men we will keep this horrible problem. Yes its a small minority of men, but they are fuelled by a society that amplifies their "rights" and "needs" as overriding those of others. We managed to make drink driving completely unacceptable when it used to be the norm. We can make "incel" and "phwoar" and"just a bit of fun" completely unacceptable if we try.

    This won't 100% eradicate these kind of crimes because a very small number of people are unsaveable in this life. But we can shine light into the darkness.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,368

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    You do know that the US has about as many police forces as Scotland has police officers, don’t you?
    Yes, I do. There is no need to be infantile or patronising, nor to play the straw man card. PB standard fare.

    The fact is that the US has national police. England doesn’t.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,897

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    You do know that the US has about as many police forces as Scotland has police officers, don’t you?
    Yes, I do. There is no need to be infantile or patronising, nor to play the straw man card. PB standard fare.

    The fact is that the US has national police. England doesn’t.
    Why do we need a national police force?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 24,572

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    You do know that the US has about as many police forces as Scotland has police officers, don’t you?
    And of course that the Met alone has almost twice as many officers as the whole of Police Scotland.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,744

    DavidL said:

    For me, the problem is not so much the shocking revelations of this case, it is the mindset of an institution, and indeed a political class, that thought Cressida Dick was even a credible candidate for the position of Head of the Met in the first place. From the manslaughter of Charles de Menezes, the jaw dropping incompetence in Operation Midland and the blatant and identified obstruction of the Morgan inquiry it is painfully obvious that she should have been sacked long before she made the top chair. Is it really any surprise that the incompetence, genuinely weird political misjudgements (Extinction rebellion and the handling of the Sarah Everard commemoration to name just 2 examples) have continued?

    Was the fact that she was a woman and gay more important to our right on politicians? I mean, for god's sake. The decision to renew her contract not even a month ago with this pending, is one of the more inexplicable political decisions in recent times. Dick is not the only one who should be considering her position.

    I'm not here to defend the Commissioner - would be very happy to see her resign. But there does appear to be a concerted campaign against her that is outsized vs the issue. Would - an example - a different commissioner have meant that this "man" would have been screened and caught out before he committed this heinous crime?
    This alone would not for me be reason for her to resign. As horrendous as it is, if none of the red flags had reached her desk there's no way she could have known.

    This, combined with the culture she's allowed to be in the Met, combined with the cover-up the Morgan Inquiry found, combined with de Menzies, combined with Midland . . . different story.
    Yes, so we're back into the institutional culture problem. As the police (all forces) draw more of certain groups of people in than other groups there is a risk of being unbalanced. All the more reason why the leadership from the very top needs to be robust.

    For me though this does feel like a bit of a blind alley. This case was so exceptional because it was that crime by a serving police officer - hence the exceptional sentence. If only the crime was an exception - it isn't. It isn't the police culture we need to change, but our own.

    Until women are equal to men we will keep this horrible problem. Yes its a small minority of men, but they are fuelled by a society that amplifies their "rights" and "needs" as overriding those of others. We managed to make drink driving completely unacceptable when it used to be the norm. We can make "incel" and "phwoar" and"just a bit of fun" completely unacceptable if we try.

    This won't 100% eradicate these kind of crimes because a very small number of people are unsaveable in this life. But we can shine light into the darkness.
    It does concern me that Couzens may have only got a proper life sentence because he was a police officer. For sure, that's an aggravating factor, but his actions alone ought to have been more than enough to ensure that he would never be released.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,476

    DavidL said:

    For me, the problem is not so much the shocking revelations of this case, it is the mindset of an institution, and indeed a political class, that thought Cressida Dick was even a credible candidate for the position of Head of the Met in the first place. From the manslaughter of Charles de Menezes, the jaw dropping incompetence in Operation Midland and the blatant and identified obstruction of the Morgan inquiry it is painfully obvious that she should have been sacked long before she made the top chair. Is it really any surprise that the incompetence, genuinely weird political misjudgements (Extinction rebellion and the handling of the Sarah Everard commemoration to name just 2 examples) have continued?

    Was the fact that she was a woman and gay more important to our right on politicians? I mean, for god's sake. The decision to renew her contract not even a month ago with this pending, is one of the more inexplicable political decisions in recent times. Dick is not the only one who should be considering her position.

    I'm not here to defend the Commissioner - would be very happy to see her resign. But there does appear to be a concerted campaign against her that is outsized vs the issue. Would - an example - a different commissioner have meant that this "man" would have been screened and caught out before he committed this heinous crime?
    This alone would not for me be reason for her to resign. As horrendous as it is, if none of the red flags had reached her desk there's no way she could have known.

    This, combined with the culture she's allowed to be in the Met, combined with the cover-up the Morgan Inquiry found, combined with de Menzies, combined with Midland . . . different story.
    I've not followed this as closely as Cyclefree and others here, and I don't have a qualified opinion about Cressida Dick (who I've never met). But in general terms I'm more convinced by the list of actions that Cyclefree sets out than the focus by many on Dick. It's a consistent fault in our culture that we boil controversies down to the failings of one individual (simpler, and avoids troubling questions about the system).

    That's dangerous, because if we ultimately succeed in making her resign, an impression may be created that the problem is solved. It's like addressing tax avoidance by saying "let's crack down on Amazon". I'd rather that Dick was told that her continuation in the job depends on implementing the kind of systemic actions that Cyclefree sets out.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,487

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    Not sure Scottish example is a good one. They just appear to be a tool of the nutters running the country, undermanned supposedly until their lords and masters call and suddenly unlimited resources for niche projects.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,573

    DavidL said:

    For me, the problem is not so much the shocking revelations of this case, it is the mindset of an institution, and indeed a political class, that thought Cressida Dick was even a credible candidate for the position of Head of the Met in the first place. From the manslaughter of Charles de Menezes, the jaw dropping incompetence in Operation Midland and the blatant and identified obstruction of the Morgan inquiry it is painfully obvious that she should have been sacked long before she made the top chair. Is it really any surprise that the incompetence, genuinely weird political misjudgements (Extinction rebellion and the handling of the Sarah Everard commemoration to name just 2 examples) have continued?

    Was the fact that she was a woman and gay more important to our right on politicians? I mean, for god's sake. The decision to renew her contract not even a month ago with this pending, is one of the more inexplicable political decisions in recent times. Dick is not the only one who should be considering her position.

    I'm not here to defend the Commissioner - would be very happy to see her resign. But there does appear to be a concerted campaign against her that is outsized vs the issue. Would - an example - a different commissioner have meant that this "man" would have been screened and caught out before he committed this heinous crime?
    This alone would not for me be reason for her to resign. As horrendous as it is, if none of the red flags had reached her desk there's no way she could have known.

    This, combined with the culture she's allowed to be in the Met, combined with the cover-up the Morgan Inquiry found, combined with de Menzies, combined with Midland . . . different story.
    Yes, so we're back into the institutional culture problem. As the police (all forces) draw more of certain groups of people in than other groups there is a risk of being unbalanced. All the more reason why the leadership from the very top needs to be robust.

    For me though this does feel like a bit of a blind alley. This case was so exceptional because it was that crime by a serving police officer - hence the exceptional sentence. If only the crime was an exception - it isn't. It isn't the police culture we need to change, but our own.

    Until women are equal to men we will keep this horrible problem. Yes its a small minority of men, but they are fuelled by a society that amplifies their "rights" and "needs" as overriding those of others. We managed to make drink driving completely unacceptable when it used to be the norm. We can make "incel" and "phwoar" and"just a bit of fun" completely unacceptable if we try.

    This won't 100% eradicate these kind of crimes because a very small number of people are unsaveable in this life. But we can shine light into the darkness.
    Is there a single person here who thinks "incel" is acceptable?

    Aren't the "incel" crowd unsociable, unacceptable loners and weirdos already to be frank? What more specifically do you want to do?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,368

    felix said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
    We're talking about Dickson of Stockholm Green here. In his mind, the biggest crime in the world is being English ...
    England used to be the country of the stiff upper lip. Now it is characterised by immense chips on shoulders.
    LOL. Yet again, you show us your English expertise, through the prism of your pro-Scottish mania from your home in Sweden ... ;)
    Why can Scots or Swedes not be experts on England? What a bizarre concept. Is expertise in an area solely limited to inhabitants of that area? Often the opposite is the case. Distance gives perspective.

    Funnily enough, PB is jam-packed full of experts on Scotland. However, it soon becomes apparent that most of them haven’t completed Chapter One of their copies of ‘Scotland for Dummies’.

    And why on earth should a Scot not be “pro-Scottish”? It would be very odd if I was not.

    Your entire post just reeks of psychological projection.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,487

    DavidL said:

    For me, the problem is not so much the shocking revelations of this case, it is the mindset of an institution, and indeed a political class, that thought Cressida Dick was even a credible candidate for the position of Head of the Met in the first place. From the manslaughter of Charles de Menezes, the jaw dropping incompetence in Operation Midland and the blatant and identified obstruction of the Morgan inquiry it is painfully obvious that she should have been sacked long before she made the top chair. Is it really any surprise that the incompetence, genuinely weird political misjudgements (Extinction rebellion and the handling of the Sarah Everard commemoration to name just 2 examples) have continued?

    Was the fact that she was a woman and gay more important to our right on politicians? I mean, for god's sake. The decision to renew her contract not even a month ago with this pending, is one of the more inexplicable political decisions in recent times. Dick is not the only one who should be considering her position.

    I'm not here to defend the Commissioner - would be very happy to see her resign. But there does appear to be a concerted campaign against her that is outsized vs the issue. Would - an example - a different commissioner have meant that this "man" would have been screened and caught out before he committed this heinous crime?
    Unfortunately she has a long list of failures to her name, proven to be useless and promoted well beyond her level of competence. The fish rots from the head. She must have some serious buddies.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,368

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    You do know that the US has about as many police forces as Scotland has police officers, don’t you?
    Yes, I do. There is no need to be infantile or patronising, nor to play the straw man card. PB standard fare.

    The fact is that the US has national police. England doesn’t.
    Why do we need a national police force?
    To solve many of the issues Cyclefree raises in her article. Read it. It’s a good one.

    English law enforcement is broken. It needs fixing.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,573

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    You do know that the US has about as many police forces as Scotland has police officers, don’t you?
    Yes, I do. There is no need to be infantile or patronising, nor to play the straw man card. PB standard fare.

    The fact is that the US has national police. England doesn’t.
    So you're doubling down on the notion that you wish English policing was more like US policing? 🤔

    Pass, thanks.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,291

    felix said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
    We're talking about Dickson of Stockholm Green here. In his mind, the biggest crime in the world is being English ...
    England used to be the country of the stiff upper lip. Now it is characterised by immense chips on shoulders.
    LOL. Yet again, you show us your English expertise, through the prism of your pro-Scottish mania from your home in Sweden ... ;)
    Why can Scots or Swedes not be experts on England? What a bizarre concept. Is expertise in an area solely limited to inhabitants of that area? Often the opposite is the case. Distance gives perspective.

    Funnily enough, PB is jam-packed full of experts on Scotland. However, it soon becomes apparent that most of them haven’t completed Chapter One of their copies of ‘Scotland for Dummies’.

    And why on earth should a Scot not be “pro-Scottish”? It would be very odd if I was not.

    Your entire post just reeks of psychological projection.
    A national police force just means that you don't have anyone to call in, when the scandals get too big to ignore.

    Police Scotland has been happily applying that system for a while.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,288
    The police are never going to clean up their act if they cannot admit to having a problem, and the clearest way to establish that they have a problem is for the person in charge to show some leadership by realising that the corporate failure in this case was so large, and the shock to public confidence so serious, that responsibility has to be established by resigning.

    How can it be that a serving police officer uses his warrant card to kidnap, rape and murder a woman and no-one in a position of authority is at all responsible?

    What are leadership positions for?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,487

    felix said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
    We're talking about Dickson of Stockholm Green here. In his mind, the biggest crime in the world is being English ...
    He is also very forgiving of a police force that has become a tool of an SNP state....
    *All* police forces are tools of their respective states. And the Scottish state is the tool of the Scottish people, not of any one party. They can choose whoever they like to run their state. They chose the SNP for the job, as recently as May. Lovely fresh mandate.

    (… and pedantically, it is currently an SNP/Green state.)
    Stuart , that is just pure bollox of the highest order. They will be laughing in the aisles.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,368

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    You do know that the US has about as many police forces as Scotland has police officers, don’t you?
    Yes, I do. There is no need to be infantile or patronising, nor to play the straw man card. PB standard fare.

    The fact is that the US has national police. England doesn’t.
    So you're doubling down on the notion that you wish English policing was more like US policing? 🤔

    Pass, thanks.
    Nope. Again playing the straw man.

    How about all of England’s nearest neighbours - Scotland, Ireland, Iceland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, the Netherlands, France? Why do they all choose national police? Are they all wrong and England right? Maybe. But please show your workings.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,241

    felix said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
    We're talking about Dickson of Stockholm Green here. In his mind, the biggest crime in the world is being English ...
    England used to be the country of the stiff upper lip. Now it is characterised by immense chips on shoulders.
    LOL. Yet again, you show us your English expertise, through the prism of your pro-Scottish mania from your home in Sweden ... ;)
    Why can Scots or Swedes not be experts on England? What a bizarre concept. Is expertise in an area solely limited to inhabitants of that area? Often the opposite is the case. Distance gives perspective.

    Funnily enough, PB is jam-packed full of experts on Scotland. However, it soon becomes apparent that most of them haven’t completed Chapter One of their copies of ‘Scotland for Dummies’.

    And why on earth should a Scot not be “pro-Scottish”? It would be very odd if I was not.

    Your entire post just reeks of psychological projection.
    It's funny that the second line of your post makes the point I was making. Lots of us on here get told we cannot be 'Scottish experts' because we don't live there, and therefore our opinions don't count. Meanwhile, a Scot living in Sweden can projectile vomit bile over the English he evidently hates.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,286
    edited October 1
    Good Morning all.
    One could have more confidence in police leadership if this were a one off, as Ms Cyclefree points out. However this case is just another in a recent series of major police errors; for example, the South Yorkshire force has not exactly covered itself with glory recently. And anyone whom watched the recent TV programme on the Cardiff Three would be concerned.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,368

    felix said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
    We're talking about Dickson of Stockholm Green here. In his mind, the biggest crime in the world is being English ...
    England used to be the country of the stiff upper lip. Now it is characterised by immense chips on shoulders.
    LOL. Yet again, you show us your English expertise, through the prism of your pro-Scottish mania from your home in Sweden ... ;)
    Why can Scots or Swedes not be experts on England? What a bizarre concept. Is expertise in an area solely limited to inhabitants of that area? Often the opposite is the case. Distance gives perspective.

    Funnily enough, PB is jam-packed full of experts on Scotland. However, it soon becomes apparent that most of them haven’t completed Chapter One of their copies of ‘Scotland for Dummies’.

    And why on earth should a Scot not be “pro-Scottish”? It would be very odd if I was not.

    Your entire post just reeks of psychological projection.
    A national police force just means that you don't have anyone to call in, when the scandals get too big to ignore.

    Police Scotland has been happily applying that system for a while.
    That old chestnut.

    Jocks = bad

    One day England will move on. Nobody is holding their breath.

    If the English wanted someone bigger to call in when their scandals got too big they shouldn’t have left the EU.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,219



    Yes, so we're back into the institutional culture problem. As the police (all forces) draw more of certain groups of people in than other groups there is a risk of being unbalanced. All the more reason why the leadership from the very top needs to be robust.

    For me though this does feel like a bit of a blind alley. This case was so exceptional because it was that crime by a serving police officer - hence the exceptional sentence. If only the crime was an exception - it isn't. It isn't the police culture we need to change, but our own.

    Until women are equal to men we will keep this horrible problem. Yes its a small minority of men, but they are fuelled by a society that amplifies their "rights" and "needs" as overriding those of others. We managed to make drink driving completely unacceptable when it used to be the norm. We can make "incel" and "phwoar" and"just a bit of fun" completely unacceptable if we try.

    This won't 100% eradicate these kind of crimes because a very small number of people are unsaveable in this life. But we can shine light into the darkness.

    Incels, though, are viewed in a similar light to paedophiles. They are derided and despised, and mix only with their own kind.

    But, I think you're on to something. I commented the other day about websites that are dedicated to (mocked up) pictures of young, attractive, women, being burned at the stake or tortured in a variety of imaginitive ways. That can't be healthy.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,573

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    You do know that the US has about as many police forces as Scotland has police officers, don’t you?
    Yes, I do. There is no need to be infantile or patronising, nor to play the straw man card. PB standard fare.

    The fact is that the US has national police. England doesn’t.
    So you're doubling down on the notion that you wish English policing was more like US policing? 🤔

    Pass, thanks.
    Nope. Again playing the straw man.

    How about all of England’s nearest neighbours - Scotland, Ireland, Iceland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, the Netherlands, France? Why do they all choose national police? Are they all wrong and England right? Maybe. But please show your workings.
    Half of those are even smaller than the Met so not especially relevant.

    But for the rest, yes. It results in a Police force even more institutionalised and even more out of touch. The bigger it gets, it becomes even more ossified and even more resistant to change. Even harder to root out problems. Corrupt a nationwide police force (via politics or a malign culture) and the entire nation's policing is now corrupted.

    Breaking up the Met which is a bit too big for its boots, would be better than making it nationwide.

    Small is better, it makes it easier to root out problems and if they set in then they only set in for a small institution rather than nationwide.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,368

    felix said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
    We're talking about Dickson of Stockholm Green here. In his mind, the biggest crime in the world is being English ...
    England used to be the country of the stiff upper lip. Now it is characterised by immense chips on shoulders.
    LOL. Yet again, you show us your English expertise, through the prism of your pro-Scottish mania from your home in Sweden ... ;)
    Why can Scots or Swedes not be experts on England? What a bizarre concept. Is expertise in an area solely limited to inhabitants of that area? Often the opposite is the case. Distance gives perspective.

    Funnily enough, PB is jam-packed full of experts on Scotland. However, it soon becomes apparent that most of them haven’t completed Chapter One of their copies of ‘Scotland for Dummies’.

    And why on earth should a Scot not be “pro-Scottish”? It would be very odd if I was not.

    Your entire post just reeks of psychological projection.
    It's funny that the second line of your post makes the point I was making. Lots of us on here get told we cannot be 'Scottish experts' because we don't live there, and therefore our opinions don't count. Meanwhile, a Scot living in Sweden can projectile vomit bile over the English he evidently hates.
    Wrong. I am an Anglophile. I wish England and the English well. Including her law enforcement capacity.

    My problem with PB Jock-experts is that most of them haven’t got the faintest scoobie about Scottish society, culture, economics, history, electoral behaviour or public affairs.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 5,614

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    You do know that the US has about as many police forces as Scotland has police officers, don’t you?
    Yes, I do. There is no need to be infantile or patronising, nor to play the straw man card. PB standard fare.

    The fact is that the US has national police. England doesn’t.
    The US has several national police forces.

    Are you suggesting that the USA is a better model for policing than the UK?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 24,572

    felix said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
    We're talking about Dickson of Stockholm Green here. In his mind, the biggest crime in the world is being English ...
    England used to be the country of the stiff upper lip. Now it is characterised by immense chips on shoulders.
    LOL. Yet again, you show us your English expertise, through the prism of your pro-Scottish mania from your home in Sweden ... ;)
    Why can Scots or Swedes not be experts on England? What a bizarre concept. Is expertise in an area solely limited to inhabitants of that area? Often the opposite is the case. Distance gives perspective.

    Funnily enough, PB is jam-packed full of experts on Scotland. However, it soon becomes apparent that most of them haven’t completed Chapter One of their copies of ‘Scotland for Dummies’.

    And why on earth should a Scot not be “pro-Scottish”? It would be very odd if I was not.

    Your entire post just reeks of psychological projection.
    A national police force just means that you don't have anyone to call in, when the scandals get too big to ignore.

    Police Scotland has been happily applying that system for a while.
    That old chestnut.

    Jocks = bad

    One day England will move on. Nobody is holding their breath.

    If the English wanted someone bigger to call in when their scandals got too big they shouldn’t have left the EU.
    But sadly Police Scotland continues to be the gift that keeps on giving. And I say that as someone who is very pro-Independence. They are a bad advert for the police, for Scotland and for Independence.

    On this I agree with PT. When it comes to policing smaller, localised and decentralised is better.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586

    DavidL said:

    For me, the problem is not so much the shocking revelations of this case, it is the mindset of an institution, and indeed a political class, that thought Cressida Dick was even a credible candidate for the position of Head of the Met in the first place. From the manslaughter of Charles de Menezes, the jaw dropping incompetence in Operation Midland and the blatant and identified obstruction of the Morgan inquiry it is painfully obvious that she should have been sacked long before she made the top chair. Is it really any surprise that the incompetence, genuinely weird political misjudgements (Extinction rebellion and the handling of the Sarah Everard commemoration to name just 2 examples) have continued?

    Was the fact that she was a woman and gay more important to our right on politicians? I mean, for god's sake. The decision to renew her contract not even a month ago with this pending, is one of the more inexplicable political decisions in recent times. Dick is not the only one who should be considering her position.

    I'm not here to defend the Commissioner - would be very happy to see her resign. But there does appear to be a concerted campaign against her that is outsized vs the issue. Would - an example - a different commissioner have meant that this "man" would have been screened and caught out before he committed this heinous crime?
    This alone would not for me be reason for her to resign. As horrendous as it is, if none of the red flags had reached her desk there's no way she could have known.

    This, combined with the culture she's allowed to be in the Met, combined with the cover-up the Morgan Inquiry found, combined with de Menzies, combined with Midland . . . different story.
    Yes, so we're back into the institutional culture problem. As the police (all forces) draw more of certain groups of people in than other groups there is a risk of being unbalanced. All the more reason why the leadership from the very top needs to be robust.

    For me though this does feel like a bit of a blind alley. This case was so exceptional because it was that crime by a serving police officer - hence the exceptional sentence. If only the crime was an exception - it isn't. It isn't the police culture we need to change, but our own.

    Until women are equal to men we will keep this horrible problem. Yes its a small minority of men, but they are fuelled by a society that amplifies their "rights" and "needs" as overriding those of others. We managed to make drink driving completely unacceptable when it used to be the norm. We can make "incel" and "phwoar" and"just a bit of fun" completely unacceptable if we try.

    This won't 100% eradicate these kind of crimes because a very small number of people are unsaveable in this life. But we can shine light into the darkness.
    Is there a single person here who thinks "incel" is acceptable?

    Aren't the "incel" crowd unsociable, unacceptable loners and weirdos already to be frank? What more specifically do you want to do?
    Indeed and Couzens was a police officer married with children, on the outside he was perfectly normal, not an incel at all.

    That was also what made him so dangerous
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,573

    felix said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
    We're talking about Dickson of Stockholm Green here. In his mind, the biggest crime in the world is being English ...
    England used to be the country of the stiff upper lip. Now it is characterised by immense chips on shoulders.
    LOL. Yet again, you show us your English expertise, through the prism of your pro-Scottish mania from your home in Sweden ... ;)
    Why can Scots or Swedes not be experts on England? What a bizarre concept. Is expertise in an area solely limited to inhabitants of that area? Often the opposite is the case. Distance gives perspective.

    Funnily enough, PB is jam-packed full of experts on Scotland. However, it soon becomes apparent that most of them haven’t completed Chapter One of their copies of ‘Scotland for Dummies’.

    And why on earth should a Scot not be “pro-Scottish”? It would be very odd if I was not.

    Your entire post just reeks of psychological projection.
    A national police force just means that you don't have anyone to call in, when the scandals get too big to ignore.

    Police Scotland has been happily applying that system for a while.
    That old chestnut.

    Jocks = bad

    One day England will move on. Nobody is holding their breath.

    If the English wanted someone bigger to call in when their scandals got too big they shouldn’t have left the EU.
    There's nothing "Jock" about it. Scotland's policing was better when Scotland's policing was divided up, rather than all institutionalised into a single monolithic unionism.

    Its funny I believe in Scottish independece because I believe small is better. Every argument you use is in favour of bigger is better and unionism.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,368
    edited October 1
    Sean_F said:




    Yes, so we're back into the institutional culture problem. As the police (all forces) draw more of certain groups of people in than other groups there is a risk of being unbalanced. All the more reason why the leadership from the very top needs to be robust.

    For me though this does feel like a bit of a blind alley. This case was so exceptional because it was that crime by a serving police officer - hence the exceptional sentence. If only the crime was an exception - it isn't. It isn't the police culture we need to change, but our own.

    Until women are equal to men we will keep this horrible problem. Yes its a small minority of men, but they are fuelled by a society that amplifies their "rights" and "needs" as overriding those of others. We managed to make drink driving completely unacceptable when it used to be the norm. We can make "incel" and "phwoar" and"just a bit of fun" completely unacceptable if we try.

    This won't 100% eradicate these kind of crimes because a very small number of people are unsaveable in this life. But we can shine light into the darkness.

    Incels, though, are viewed in a similar light to paedophiles. They are derided and despised, and mix only with their own kind.

    But, I think you're on to something. I commented the other day about websites that are dedicated to (mocked up) pictures of young, attractive, women, being burned at the stake or tortured in a variety of imaginitive ways. That can't be healthy.

    It doesn’t help that the English government is headed by a boor and a cad. Symbols matter.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,291

    felix said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
    We're talking about Dickson of Stockholm Green here. In his mind, the biggest crime in the world is being English ...
    England used to be the country of the stiff upper lip. Now it is characterised by immense chips on shoulders.
    LOL. Yet again, you show us your English expertise, through the prism of your pro-Scottish mania from your home in Sweden ... ;)
    Why can Scots or Swedes not be experts on England? What a bizarre concept. Is expertise in an area solely limited to inhabitants of that area? Often the opposite is the case. Distance gives perspective.

    Funnily enough, PB is jam-packed full of experts on Scotland. However, it soon becomes apparent that most of them haven’t completed Chapter One of their copies of ‘Scotland for Dummies’.

    And why on earth should a Scot not be “pro-Scottish”? It would be very odd if I was not.

    Your entire post just reeks of psychological projection.
    A national police force just means that you don't have anyone to call in, when the scandals get too big to ignore.

    Police Scotland has been happily applying that system for a while.
    That old chestnut.

    Jocks = bad

    One day England will move on. Nobody is holding their breath.

    If the English wanted someone bigger to call in when their scandals got too big they shouldn’t have left the EU.
    It's not being anti-Scottish. It's being anti-Police Scotland.

    Every single country on earth has a problem with police corruption and law breaking. The question is what you do about it.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,368

    felix said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
    We're talking about Dickson of Stockholm Green here. In his mind, the biggest crime in the world is being English ...
    England used to be the country of the stiff upper lip. Now it is characterised by immense chips on shoulders.
    LOL. Yet again, you show us your English expertise, through the prism of your pro-Scottish mania from your home in Sweden ... ;)
    Why can Scots or Swedes not be experts on England? What a bizarre concept. Is expertise in an area solely limited to inhabitants of that area? Often the opposite is the case. Distance gives perspective.

    Funnily enough, PB is jam-packed full of experts on Scotland. However, it soon becomes apparent that most of them haven’t completed Chapter One of their copies of ‘Scotland for Dummies’.

    And why on earth should a Scot not be “pro-Scottish”? It would be very odd if I was not.

    Your entire post just reeks of psychological projection.
    A national police force just means that you don't have anyone to call in, when the scandals get too big to ignore.

    Police Scotland has been happily applying that system for a while.
    That old chestnut.

    Jocks = bad

    One day England will move on. Nobody is holding their breath.

    If the English wanted someone bigger to call in when their scandals got too big they shouldn’t have left the EU.
    But sadly Police Scotland continues to be the gift that keeps on giving. And I say that as someone who is very pro-Independence. They are a bad advert for the police, for Scotland and for Independence.

    On this I agree with PT. When it comes to policing smaller, localised and decentralised is better.
    How can Police Scotland be a bad advert for independence? They are a product of the Union.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,241
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    For me, the problem is not so much the shocking revelations of this case, it is the mindset of an institution, and indeed a political class, that thought Cressida Dick was even a credible candidate for the position of Head of the Met in the first place. From the manslaughter of Charles de Menezes, the jaw dropping incompetence in Operation Midland and the blatant and identified obstruction of the Morgan inquiry it is painfully obvious that she should have been sacked long before she made the top chair. Is it really any surprise that the incompetence, genuinely weird political misjudgements (Extinction rebellion and the handling of the Sarah Everard commemoration to name just 2 examples) have continued?

    Was the fact that she was a woman and gay more important to our right on politicians? I mean, for god's sake. The decision to renew her contract not even a month ago with this pending, is one of the more inexplicable political decisions in recent times. Dick is not the only one who should be considering her position.

    I'm not here to defend the Commissioner - would be very happy to see her resign. But there does appear to be a concerted campaign against her that is outsized vs the issue. Would - an example - a different commissioner have meant that this "man" would have been screened and caught out before he committed this heinous crime?
    This alone would not for me be reason for her to resign. As horrendous as it is, if none of the red flags had reached her desk there's no way she could have known.

    This, combined with the culture she's allowed to be in the Met, combined with the cover-up the Morgan Inquiry found, combined with de Menzies, combined with Midland . . . different story.
    Yes, so we're back into the institutional culture problem. As the police (all forces) draw more of certain groups of people in than other groups there is a risk of being unbalanced. All the more reason why the leadership from the very top needs to be robust.

    For me though this does feel like a bit of a blind alley. This case was so exceptional because it was that crime by a serving police officer - hence the exceptional sentence. If only the crime was an exception - it isn't. It isn't the police culture we need to change, but our own.

    Until women are equal to men we will keep this horrible problem. Yes its a small minority of men, but they are fuelled by a society that amplifies their "rights" and "needs" as overriding those of others. We managed to make drink driving completely unacceptable when it used to be the norm. We can make "incel" and "phwoar" and"just a bit of fun" completely unacceptable if we try.

    This won't 100% eradicate these kind of crimes because a very small number of people are unsaveable in this life. But we can shine light into the darkness.
    Is there a single person here who thinks "incel" is acceptable?

    Aren't the "incel" crowd unsociable, unacceptable loners and weirdos already to be frank? What more specifically do you want to do?
    Indeed and Couzens was a police officer married with children, on the outside he was perfectly normal, not an incel at all.

    That was also what made him so dangerous
    Except, apparently, his colleagues called him 'the rapist'. I'm unsure why that was, but it's an indication that others could see he had issues.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,291

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    You do know that the US has about as many police forces as Scotland has police officers, don’t you?
    Yes, I do. There is no need to be infantile or patronising, nor to play the straw man card. PB standard fare.

    The fact is that the US has national police. England doesn’t.
    So you're doubling down on the notion that you wish English policing was more like US policing? 🤔

    Pass, thanks.
    Nope. Again playing the straw man.

    How about all of England’s nearest neighbours - Scotland, Ireland, Iceland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, the Netherlands, France? Why do they all choose national police? Are they all wrong and England right? Maybe. But please show your workings.
    The French have multiple police forces. Which spend a fair bit of time investigating each other for corruption.

    You should ask an Irish person what they think about corruption in the Guards. I haven't met a single one who is happy about it.

    The American system, like their health care, appears to be an attempt to create the worst overall result possible.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,744
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    For me, the problem is not so much the shocking revelations of this case, it is the mindset of an institution, and indeed a political class, that thought Cressida Dick was even a credible candidate for the position of Head of the Met in the first place. From the manslaughter of Charles de Menezes, the jaw dropping incompetence in Operation Midland and the blatant and identified obstruction of the Morgan inquiry it is painfully obvious that she should have been sacked long before she made the top chair. Is it really any surprise that the incompetence, genuinely weird political misjudgements (Extinction rebellion and the handling of the Sarah Everard commemoration to name just 2 examples) have continued?

    Was the fact that she was a woman and gay more important to our right on politicians? I mean, for god's sake. The decision to renew her contract not even a month ago with this pending, is one of the more inexplicable political decisions in recent times. Dick is not the only one who should be considering her position.

    I'm not here to defend the Commissioner - would be very happy to see her resign. But there does appear to be a concerted campaign against her that is outsized vs the issue. Would - an example - a different commissioner have meant that this "man" would have been screened and caught out before he committed this heinous crime?
    This alone would not for me be reason for her to resign. As horrendous as it is, if none of the red flags had reached her desk there's no way she could have known.

    This, combined with the culture she's allowed to be in the Met, combined with the cover-up the Morgan Inquiry found, combined with de Menzies, combined with Midland . . . different story.
    Yes, so we're back into the institutional culture problem. As the police (all forces) draw more of certain groups of people in than other groups there is a risk of being unbalanced. All the more reason why the leadership from the very top needs to be robust.

    For me though this does feel like a bit of a blind alley. This case was so exceptional because it was that crime by a serving police officer - hence the exceptional sentence. If only the crime was an exception - it isn't. It isn't the police culture we need to change, but our own.

    Until women are equal to men we will keep this horrible problem. Yes its a small minority of men, but they are fuelled by a society that amplifies their "rights" and "needs" as overriding those of others. We managed to make drink driving completely unacceptable when it used to be the norm. We can make "incel" and "phwoar" and"just a bit of fun" completely unacceptable if we try.

    This won't 100% eradicate these kind of crimes because a very small number of people are unsaveable in this life. But we can shine light into the darkness.
    Is there a single person here who thinks "incel" is acceptable?

    Aren't the "incel" crowd unsociable, unacceptable loners and weirdos already to be frank? What more specifically do you want to do?
    Indeed and Couzens was a police officer married with children, on the outside he was perfectly normal, not an incel at all.

    That was also what made him so dangerous
    He was also 48, so someone who grew up without the internet.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,487
    This is typical Tory practice and people wonder why the police are crap

    Malcolm Offord was rejected by the voters during the Holyrood election.
    Despite this he has been handed an unelected peerage in the house of lords as a U.K. gov minister Under the secretary of State for Scotland office.
    Amazing what £150,000 donation to the Cons party gets you!
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 12,003
    HYUFD said:

    DavidL said:

    For me, the problem is not so much the shocking revelations of this case, it is the mindset of an institution, and indeed a political class, that thought Cressida Dick was even a credible candidate for the position of Head of the Met in the first place. From the manslaughter of Charles de Menezes, the jaw dropping incompetence in Operation Midland and the blatant and identified obstruction of the Morgan inquiry it is painfully obvious that she should have been sacked long before she made the top chair. Is it really any surprise that the incompetence, genuinely weird political misjudgements (Extinction rebellion and the handling of the Sarah Everard commemoration to name just 2 examples) have continued?

    Was the fact that she was a woman and gay more important to our right on politicians? I mean, for god's sake. The decision to renew her contract not even a month ago with this pending, is one of the more inexplicable political decisions in recent times. Dick is not the only one who should be considering her position.

    I'm not here to defend the Commissioner - would be very happy to see her resign. But there does appear to be a concerted campaign against her that is outsized vs the issue. Would - an example - a different commissioner have meant that this "man" would have been screened and caught out before he committed this heinous crime?
    This alone would not for me be reason for her to resign. As horrendous as it is, if none of the red flags had reached her desk there's no way she could have known.

    This, combined with the culture she's allowed to be in the Met, combined with the cover-up the Morgan Inquiry found, combined with de Menzies, combined with Midland . . . different story.
    Yes, so we're back into the institutional culture problem. As the police (all forces) draw more of certain groups of people in than other groups there is a risk of being unbalanced. All the more reason why the leadership from the very top needs to be robust.

    For me though this does feel like a bit of a blind alley. This case was so exceptional because it was that crime by a serving police officer - hence the exceptional sentence. If only the crime was an exception - it isn't. It isn't the police culture we need to change, but our own.

    Until women are equal to men we will keep this horrible problem. Yes its a small minority of men, but they are fuelled by a society that amplifies their "rights" and "needs" as overriding those of others. We managed to make drink driving completely unacceptable when it used to be the norm. We can make "incel" and "phwoar" and"just a bit of fun" completely unacceptable if we try.

    This won't 100% eradicate these kind of crimes because a very small number of people are unsaveable in this life. But we can shine light into the darkness.
    Is there a single person here who thinks "incel" is acceptable?

    Aren't the "incel" crowd unsociable, unacceptable loners and weirdos already to be frank? What more specifically do you want to do?
    Indeed and Couzens was a police officer married with children, on the outside he was perfectly normal, not an incel at all.

    That was also what made him so dangerous
    How many perfectly normal men have the nickname "The rapist" amongst their colleagues?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    Most US police are state police, the FBI is more a Federal intelligence and Security agency
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,368

    felix said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
    We're talking about Dickson of Stockholm Green here. In his mind, the biggest crime in the world is being English ...
    England used to be the country of the stiff upper lip. Now it is characterised by immense chips on shoulders.
    LOL. Yet again, you show us your English expertise, through the prism of your pro-Scottish mania from your home in Sweden ... ;)
    Why can Scots or Swedes not be experts on England? What a bizarre concept. Is expertise in an area solely limited to inhabitants of that area? Often the opposite is the case. Distance gives perspective.

    Funnily enough, PB is jam-packed full of experts on Scotland. However, it soon becomes apparent that most of them haven’t completed Chapter One of their copies of ‘Scotland for Dummies’.

    And why on earth should a Scot not be “pro-Scottish”? It would be very odd if I was not.

    Your entire post just reeks of psychological projection.
    A national police force just means that you don't have anyone to call in, when the scandals get too big to ignore.

    Police Scotland has been happily applying that system for a while.
    That old chestnut.

    Jocks = bad

    One day England will move on. Nobody is holding their breath.

    If the English wanted someone bigger to call in when their scandals got too big they shouldn’t have left the EU.
    It's not being anti-Scottish. It's being anti-Police Scotland.

    Every single country on earth has a problem with police corruption and law breaking. The question is what you do about it.
    Cyclefree provides the answer: change the culture.

    Bloody hard, time consuming and expensive. But it is doable.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,487

    malcolmg said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    Not sure Scottish example is a good one. They just appear to be a tool of the nutters running the country, undermanned supposedly until their lords and masters call and suddenly unlimited resources for niche projects.
    But the utter perfection of the Police Scotland system is that they investigate themselves. This is because there are no other police forces to investigate them.

    An truly independent investigation body would be anti-police because it wouldn't understand the "culture".

    Calling in an English police force for an investigation would be anti-Scottish, and anti-police.

    Therefore they *must* investigate themselves.

    It's a heavy burden. But Police Scotland nobly rise to the challenge.

    Lessons Will Be Learned.
    I am not holding my breath on that one. Way it is going they are just a tool of the state.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 5,288
    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    For me, the problem is not so much the shocking revelations of this case, it is the mindset of an institution, and indeed a political class, that thought Cressida Dick was even a credible candidate for the position of Head of the Met in the first place. From the manslaughter of Charles de Menezes, the jaw dropping incompetence in Operation Midland and the blatant and identified obstruction of the Morgan inquiry it is painfully obvious that she should have been sacked long before she made the top chair. Is it really any surprise that the incompetence, genuinely weird political misjudgements (Extinction rebellion and the handling of the Sarah Everard commemoration to name just 2 examples) have continued?

    Was the fact that she was a woman and gay more important to our right on politicians? I mean, for god's sake. The decision to renew her contract not even a month ago with this pending, is one of the more inexplicable political decisions in recent times. Dick is not the only one who should be considering her position.

    I'm not here to defend the Commissioner - would be very happy to see her resign. But there does appear to be a concerted campaign against her that is outsized vs the issue. Would - an example - a different commissioner have meant that this "man" would have been screened and caught out before he committed this heinous crime?
    This alone would not for me be reason for her to resign. As horrendous as it is, if none of the red flags had reached her desk there's no way she could have known.

    This, combined with the culture she's allowed to be in the Met, combined with the cover-up the Morgan Inquiry found, combined with de Menzies, combined with Midland . . . different story.
    Yes, so we're back into the institutional culture problem. As the police (all forces) draw more of certain groups of people in than other groups there is a risk of being unbalanced. All the more reason why the leadership from the very top needs to be robust.

    For me though this does feel like a bit of a blind alley. This case was so exceptional because it was that crime by a serving police officer - hence the exceptional sentence. If only the crime was an exception - it isn't. It isn't the police culture we need to change, but our own.

    Until women are equal to men we will keep this horrible problem. Yes its a small minority of men, but they are fuelled by a society that amplifies their "rights" and "needs" as overriding those of others. We managed to make drink driving completely unacceptable when it used to be the norm. We can make "incel" and "phwoar" and"just a bit of fun" completely unacceptable if we try.

    This won't 100% eradicate these kind of crimes because a very small number of people are unsaveable in this life. But we can shine light into the darkness.
    It does concern me that Couzens may have only got a proper life sentence because he was a police officer. For sure, that's an aggravating factor, but his actions alone ought to have been more than enough to ensure that he would never be released.
    Given the planning and that the attack was on a complete stranger, it seems almost certain that he would have repeated the crime if he'd not been caught.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,241

    felix said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
    We're talking about Dickson of Stockholm Green here. In his mind, the biggest crime in the world is being English ...
    England used to be the country of the stiff upper lip. Now it is characterised by immense chips on shoulders.
    LOL. Yet again, you show us your English expertise, through the prism of your pro-Scottish mania from your home in Sweden ... ;)
    Why can Scots or Swedes not be experts on England? What a bizarre concept. Is expertise in an area solely limited to inhabitants of that area? Often the opposite is the case. Distance gives perspective.

    Funnily enough, PB is jam-packed full of experts on Scotland. However, it soon becomes apparent that most of them haven’t completed Chapter One of their copies of ‘Scotland for Dummies’.

    And why on earth should a Scot not be “pro-Scottish”? It would be very odd if I was not.

    Your entire post just reeks of psychological projection.
    It's funny that the second line of your post makes the point I was making. Lots of us on here get told we cannot be 'Scottish experts' because we don't live there, and therefore our opinions don't count. Meanwhile, a Scot living in Sweden can projectile vomit bile over the English he evidently hates.
    Wrong. I am an Anglophile. I wish England and the English well. Including her law enforcement capacity.

    My problem with PB Jock-experts is that most of them haven’t got the faintest scoobie about Scottish society, culture, economics, history, electoral behaviour or public affairs.
    LOL. You're not an Anglophile. Far from. Your posts are drenched in a dislike (at best) for England.

    If you really are an Anglophile, you might want to consider your words more carefully in future ...
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 12,003

    The police are never going to clean up their act if they cannot admit to having a problem, and the clearest way to establish that they have a problem is for the person in charge to show some leadership by realising that the corporate failure in this case was so large, and the shock to public confidence so serious, that responsibility has to be established by resigning.

    How can it be that a serving police officer uses his warrant card to kidnap, rape and murder a woman and no-one in a position of authority is at all responsible?

    What are leadership positions for?

    On the specific, I am not sure how a chief constable can stop officers using a warrant card for nefarious purposes apart from requiring officers to hand them in at the end of each shift. And to be honest, if someone showed me a plausible warrant card I would have no idea if it was real or not. I think the warrant card part of the story is probably impossible to fix.

    From the header "Over half of Met officers who have committed sexual misconduct have kept their jobs." That is the kind of thing that can be quickly and easily fixed.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,586
    edited October 1
    Partner of woman kicked out of Labour's conference, Labour's changed because 'Starmer's wife is Jewish'.

    https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/labour-changed-as-starmers-wife-is-jewish-says-partner-of-woman-kicked-out/

    Doesn't look like they will be allowed back, correctly
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,668
    edited October 1
    Thanks for the header @Cyclefree. I think it seems odd and very worrying there is a view in Whitehall of 'who else is there?'.

    Are they saying none of the other Chief Constables across whole of UK are fit to be promoted to the "top" job? That's usually what happens.

    If so, why are so many mediocre people becoming Chiefs?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,744

    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    For me, the problem is not so much the shocking revelations of this case, it is the mindset of an institution, and indeed a political class, that thought Cressida Dick was even a credible candidate for the position of Head of the Met in the first place. From the manslaughter of Charles de Menezes, the jaw dropping incompetence in Operation Midland and the blatant and identified obstruction of the Morgan inquiry it is painfully obvious that she should have been sacked long before she made the top chair. Is it really any surprise that the incompetence, genuinely weird political misjudgements (Extinction rebellion and the handling of the Sarah Everard commemoration to name just 2 examples) have continued?

    Was the fact that she was a woman and gay more important to our right on politicians? I mean, for god's sake. The decision to renew her contract not even a month ago with this pending, is one of the more inexplicable political decisions in recent times. Dick is not the only one who should be considering her position.

    I'm not here to defend the Commissioner - would be very happy to see her resign. But there does appear to be a concerted campaign against her that is outsized vs the issue. Would - an example - a different commissioner have meant that this "man" would have been screened and caught out before he committed this heinous crime?
    This alone would not for me be reason for her to resign. As horrendous as it is, if none of the red flags had reached her desk there's no way she could have known.

    This, combined with the culture she's allowed to be in the Met, combined with the cover-up the Morgan Inquiry found, combined with de Menzies, combined with Midland . . . different story.
    Yes, so we're back into the institutional culture problem. As the police (all forces) draw more of certain groups of people in than other groups there is a risk of being unbalanced. All the more reason why the leadership from the very top needs to be robust.

    For me though this does feel like a bit of a blind alley. This case was so exceptional because it was that crime by a serving police officer - hence the exceptional sentence. If only the crime was an exception - it isn't. It isn't the police culture we need to change, but our own.

    Until women are equal to men we will keep this horrible problem. Yes its a small minority of men, but they are fuelled by a society that amplifies their "rights" and "needs" as overriding those of others. We managed to make drink driving completely unacceptable when it used to be the norm. We can make "incel" and "phwoar" and"just a bit of fun" completely unacceptable if we try.

    This won't 100% eradicate these kind of crimes because a very small number of people are unsaveable in this life. But we can shine light into the darkness.
    It does concern me that Couzens may have only got a proper life sentence because he was a police officer. For sure, that's an aggravating factor, but his actions alone ought to have been more than enough to ensure that he would never be released.
    Given the planning and that the attack was on a complete stranger, it seems almost certain that he would have repeated the crime if he'd not been caught.
    That's an interesting point. The guidance on whole life sentences includes:

    (a) the murder of two or more persons, where each murder involves any of the following— (i)a substantial degree of premeditation or planning, (ii)the abduction of the victim, or (iii)sexual or sadistic conduct...

    But as you say, he was caught after one (or, at least, one that we know of). I think it would perfectly reasonable for a judge to come to the conclusion that he would more than likely have done it again had he not been caught.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,291
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    Not sure Scottish example is a good one. They just appear to be a tool of the nutters running the country, undermanned supposedly until their lords and masters call and suddenly unlimited resources for niche projects.
    But the utter perfection of the Police Scotland system is that they investigate themselves. This is because there are no other police forces to investigate them.

    An truly independent investigation body would be anti-police because it wouldn't understand the "culture".

    Calling in an English police force for an investigation would be anti-Scottish, and anti-police.

    Therefore they *must* investigate themselves.

    It's a heavy burden. But Police Scotland nobly rise to the challenge.

    Lessons Will Be Learned.
    I am not holding my breath on that one. Way it is going they are just a tool of the state.
    Which is the old police trick - they loved this one under Blair.

    For those who don't know - under Blair, the investigation into various green and similar groups were used to claim (by the Police) that theses were "threats" they were dealing with. Meanwhile the head-chopping-fanclub was left strictly alone....

    This ended up with the comedy of trying to portray Fathers For Justice as a terrorist group, while at a certain university, the police NFA's a group holding bomb making lessons.....

    Politically useful (dealing with all those nasty threats), they could be left to their own devices.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 12,003

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    You do know that the US has about as many police forces as Scotland has police officers, don’t you?
    Yes, I do. There is no need to be infantile or patronising, nor to play the straw man card. PB standard fare.

    The fact is that the US has national police. England doesn’t.
    So you're doubling down on the notion that you wish English policing was more like US policing? 🤔

    Pass, thanks.
    Nope. Again playing the straw man.

    How about all of England’s nearest neighbours - Scotland, Ireland, Iceland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, the Netherlands, France? Why do they all choose national police? Are they all wrong and England right? Maybe. But please show your workings.
    The French have multiple police forces. Which spend a fair bit of time investigating each other for corruption.

    You should ask an Irish person what they think about corruption in the Guards. I haven't met a single one who is happy about it.

    The American system, like their health care, appears to be an attempt to create the worst overall result possible.
    How long before we are offered an Australian style police force as a solution?

    With no-one caring if we already have one, or how it works, but knowing that Australia is sunny with beaches.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,291

    felix said:

    Too many ugly old pike befouling tiny fish ponds.

    Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.

    They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.

    ...because not one of those countries have any problems with rape or any other crimes??
    We're talking about Dickson of Stockholm Green here. In his mind, the biggest crime in the world is being English ...
    England used to be the country of the stiff upper lip. Now it is characterised by immense chips on shoulders.
    LOL. Yet again, you show us your English expertise, through the prism of your pro-Scottish mania from your home in Sweden ... ;)
    Why can Scots or Swedes not be experts on England? What a bizarre concept. Is expertise in an area solely limited to inhabitants of that area? Often the opposite is the case. Distance gives perspective.

    Funnily enough, PB is jam-packed full of experts on Scotland. However, it soon becomes apparent that most of them haven’t completed Chapter One of their copies of ‘Scotland for Dummies’.

    And why on earth should a Scot not be “pro-Scottish”? It would be very odd if I was not.

    Your entire post just reeks of psychological projection.
    A national police force just means that you don't have anyone to call in, when the scandals get too big to ignore.

    Police Scotland has been happily applying that system for a while.
    That old chestnut.

    Jocks = bad

    One day England will move on. Nobody is holding their breath.

    If the English wanted someone bigger to call in when their scandals got too big they shouldn’t have left the EU.
    It's not being anti-Scottish. It's being anti-Police Scotland.

    Every single country on earth has a problem with police corruption and law breaking. The question is what you do about it.
    Cyclefree provides the answer: change the culture.

    Bloody hard, time consuming and expensive. But it is doable.
    In the long run, what you need is a very active anti-corruption investigative unit. Preferably from outside the police.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 4,405
    edited October 1

    The police are never going to clean up their act if they cannot admit to having a problem, and the clearest way to establish that they have a problem is for the person in charge to show some leadership by realising that the corporate failure in this case was so large, and the shock to public confidence so serious, that responsibility has to be established by resigning.

    How can it be that a serving police officer uses his warrant card to kidnap, rape and murder a woman and no-one in a position of authority is at all responsible?

    What are leadership positions for?

    Good question.

    Firstly, this is not over yet, so we must wait and see.

    Secondly there is no agreed culture in our society about vicarious liability from the top for the faults of subordinates. Crichel Down was a long time ago, as was Lord Carrington's resignation.

    ATM the leadership position of "I am the right person to sort this mess" seems as strong as "I was at the top so I must resign".

    It is possible for a police officer to abuse that position egregiously and no-one else know anything relevant in advance.

    There are lots of comments about this case and who knew what and who should have acted thus, but if there is fault from others they are entitled to have that proved. The Mail is not that forum, nor is PB.

    A final question: How long would any Home Secretary last if they were vicariously liable for everything that happened on their watch? More or less than 10 minutes?

This discussion has been closed.