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What Now? – politicalbetting.com

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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,191

    Latest French Opinion Poll making things look a bit more interesting.

    Macron 23%

    Le Pen 16%

    Bertrand 14%

    Melenchon 13%

    Zemmour 13%

    (Harris 24-27th Sept.)

    https://harris-interactive.fr/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2021/09/Rapport-Harris-Vague-15-Intentions-de-vote-Presidentielle-2022-Challenges.pdf

    Zemmour isn't a confirmed candidate but he is really eating into Le Pen's vote so somebody who could actually beat Macron might make the final two (unless it's Zemmour himself).

    Barnier?
    Likely won't get the centre right nomination, Bertrand will likely win the support of Les Republicains in their party convention to pick their candidate in December.

    Bertrand v Macron would be neck and neck in the second round, whereas Le Pen v Macron would still see Macron win by about 10%

  • LeonLeon Posts: 15,066
    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    One of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. I think life can be a harsher sentence.
    Especially in Dartmoor. What a depressing place.

    It’s due to shut forever in 2023. God knows what they will do with it. The architecture is kind of imperious, in a 200-year-old, Satanic way. And it’s listed. So they can’t knock it down. A hotel?!

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 18,564
    RobD said:

    I don't get it. There's a shortage of HGV drivers and the government is being criticised for trying to address that shortage.

    No, they are being criticised for fucking it up, again.

    Sending letters to Germans who are not going to drive HGVs doesn't solve the problem.

    “Global Britain” https://twitter.com/daantjehug/status/1443695175600050176
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,681
    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    One of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. I think life can be a harsher sentence.
    Especially in Dartmoor. What a depressing place.

    It’s due to shut forever in 2023. God knows what they will do with it. The architecture is kind of imperious, in a 200-year-old, Satanic way. And it’s listed. So they can’t knock it down. A hotel?!

    Madame Tussauds should buy it and make it a REALLY hardcore place to visit and stay, amongst the tales of the horrific acts of violence in Britain's crime landscape.

    "We do hope you enjoy your stay in the Shipman suite...."
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 3,162
    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    One of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. I think life can be a harsher sentence.
    Especially in Dartmoor. What a depressing place.

    It’s due to shut forever in 2023. God knows what they will do with it. The architecture is kind of imperious, in a 200-year-old, Satanic way. And it’s listed. So they can’t knock it down. A hotel?!

    Care home. Probably not the worst, either...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,191

    Pub chain Wetherspoon reports record loss

    Oh dear how sad never mind

    Wetherspoon's is a big employer in most small towns and cities outside London.

    So yes that is bad news for the economy actually if it leads to job losses.

    However the loss was almost entirely down to the 19 weeks of lockdown it faced like most pubs and hospitality venues, so hopefully its profits will pick up again now lockdown has ended
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,832

    eek said:

    I see SKS said he thinks the next James Bond should be a woman

    Dont tell Rosie Duffield

    Isn't that just the easiest laziest answer to a completely irrelevant question for a politician to be asked.
    My answer would be more circumspect: "I'm excited to find out who the next Bond will be, it would be fun to see what they could do with a woman in the role, but I'm sure there are many male actors who would also be great choices."
    The trouble with these sorts of questions is that they get column inches and people end up saying "hasn't Keir Starmer got bigger things to worry about than the next Bond?!?" And, of course, he has - but he was just answering the question given.

    Incidentally, I absolutely don't think there should be a female Bond.

    Firstly, film makers should be creating new, strong female leads - not some sort of novelty hand-me-down of a six decade old franchise.

    Secondly, James Bond is not Dr Who - it is not, in the story, a pseudonym, and he does not regenerate. It is just a different actor playing exactly the same character. Indeed, there are occasional back-references. Of course, the huge plot hole is that Bond should now be in his 90s. But the premise of the story is simply not that Daniel Craig was given the Bond name and 007 number when Piers Brosnan retired - it is that Craig IS Brosnan etc.
    Yes, Bond is like Bart Simpson. He never grows up.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,798
    edited October 2021

    Latest French Opinion Poll making things look a bit more interesting.

    Macron 23%

    Le Pen 16%

    Bertrand 14%

    Melenchon 13%

    Zemmour 13%

    (Harris 24-27th Sept.)

    https://harris-interactive.fr/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2021/09/Rapport-Harris-Vague-15-Intentions-de-vote-Presidentielle-2022-Challenges.pdf

    Zemmour isn't a confirmed candidate but he is really eating into Le Pen's vote so somebody who could actually beat Macron might make the final two (unless it's Zemmour himself).

    With Le Pen + Zemmour + Melenchon on 42%, the anti-system candidates are gaining.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 15,066
    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    This may seem a strange thing to say, but I suspect the average murderer is not an especially bad person. I think that in the wrong circumstances, many of us could do the same.

    But, there are people who are truly wicked, soulless really, and a real danger to the public, and not necessarily murderers, either.
    A friend of mine nearly murdered someone. He’s a big chap, 6 foot 5, genial, clever, engineering type. Likes cricket.

    But he has this terrible temper which, about every 15 years, descends into lunatic rage. I once saw him pick up a deeply irritating stupid person by the neck and ram him against a wall. Because of my friend’s size and strength he nearly strangled the fool to death. It’s only coz others pulled him away that he didn’t commit murder. Instead the victim meekly slipped away, my friend had a few days of mortified shame, and life went on

    Otherwise he’s a fine upstanding member of society. Father, hard worker, pays his taxes, etc
    What did this guy do to irritate him, out of interest?
    Its a long time back but IIRC he cheated at cricket, and was then loutishly smug about it. No joke

    My friend is a stickler for fair play. So decided to throttle him
    Your mate sounds like a tool.
    He’s really not. He’s just got a vicious temper which he generally restrains well - but for about 2 minutes every 20 years the red mist truly descends.

    There haven’t been any eruptions of late. Perhaps he’s done Anger Management
  • dixiedean said:

    On the excellent header, I'm inclined to agree that Cressida Dick needs to go, and quickly. This is a necessary, but not sufficient, start to reforming the Met.

    Obviously top leadership is crucial to shaping organisational culture. But so also is the leadership provided by second and third tier managers/leaders, who have to give expression to the values and behaviours demanded by The Leader.

    Now I'm only guessing, so apologies for that, but I have a strong suspicion that in an organisation as large as, and with the history of, the Met, the problem lies as much with other leaders as it does with the Top Leader. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Met needs a root and branch clear-out of all those managers/leaders that are more supportive of the Met's dodgy canteen culture than they are of the values and behaviours demanded by the top.

    Trouble is. That is a decades long process.
    Unless you bring in leaders outwith the Police force. And I can't see that being practically feasible.
    There will be more than a few Establishment figures saying the problem with the police is that none of them did PPE at Oxford. Even in the New Labour years, some seemed to despair that highly-paid jobs were being dished out to working class oiks made good.
  • Carnyx said:

    Irvine Welch is looking like a prescient novelist. The main character in 'Filth' now seems far less cartoonish, and didn't Welch also have a Jimmy Savile-esque character long before that truth came out?

    Wasn't the main character in Filth a tapeworm? (great book, BTW. Welsh is a genius).
    Ingteresting thing about tapeworms - they have a set of genitalia on each segment. IIRC the 'younger' sewgments near the head are male and the older ones near the end female, so after fertilisation between segments of the same or other worms cohabiting the gut, the final segments drop off and pass aweay into the faeces. I can't remember if Mr Irvine, or indeed any other artist, has riffed on this, though.
    Maybe Blair is a tapeworm after all. Look at Iraq - he fucked himself then ended up in the shit.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 46,480
    Anecdata on fuel:

    Queue of about 15 cars at Sainsbury's in my nearest small town. I cycled serenely past them.
  • eekeek Posts: 17,650
    edited October 2021
    HYUFD said:

    Pub chain Wetherspoon reports record loss

    Oh dear how sad never mind

    Wetherspoon's is a big employer in most small towns and cities outside London.

    So yes that is bad news for the economy actually if it leads to job losses.

    However the loss was almost entirely down to the 19 weeks of lockdown it faced like most pubs and hospitality venues, so hopefully its profits will pick up again now lockdown has ended
    By no definition can a pub be a big employer in a town / city.

    It's only big because it's got pubs in every town and city and 40 jobs times 950 pubs is a lot of people.

    And as with a lot of low paid jobs in the service sector the reason why the number of jobs is so high is because a lot of people are part time....
  • TazTaz Posts: 3,104
    kinabalu said:

    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:
    Starmer only lied to lunatics, trots and entryists in order to take over the party. He will be practically applauded by ex-Labour voters for having now told said trots where to get off.
    I am no fan of Starmer but he has had a decent week, his speech was too long, but if he is antagonising the likes of Owen Jones he cannot be doing anything wrong.
    This is the sentiment I was referring to. The more the left complains the better, is how I think he's looking at things. I don't like it myself, then again what I'd like even less is several more years of Boris Johnson, so if Keir is calling this right, electorally, and so long as the policies are not insipid, I'm happy enough. Didn't vote for him as leader, my pref was Nandy, but I hope he can succeed, pull off the trick of winning on a platform worth winning on.
    Although I vote labour because I think my local MP is a good guy Starmer has alot to do to win the red wall back and not being Corbyn is only one of the things he needs to do.

    Until he has a coherent vision, not just empty words or criticising the Tories, as to how he will improve our declining Northern former Red Wall towns and how he is going to improve peoples lives in these regions he has little chance.

    I have seen scant evidence of him speaking to people like me and communities like mine. Labour needs to re-engage with its former heartlands. I suspect one problem is many of its membership and activists hold these communities in the same contempt Dura Ace and his Extremist Green friends do (as opposed to mainstream Greens)
  • LeonLeon Posts: 15,066
    Jonathan said:

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    One of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. I think life can be a harsher sentence.
    Especially in Dartmoor. What a depressing place.

    It’s due to shut forever in 2023. God knows what they will do with it. The architecture is kind of imperious, in a 200-year-old, Satanic way. And it’s listed. So they can’t knock it down. A hotel?!

    Wetherspoons
    That’s actually a genius idea. Wetherspoon’s does have a chain of cheapish hotels, often in spectacular converted buildings (like the pubs)

    And it’s precisely what Dartmoor needs. A big cheap hotel in the middle which doesn’t blight the landscape (as it’s already there)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,191
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pub chain Wetherspoon reports record loss

    Oh dear how sad never mind

    Wetherspoon's is a big employer in most small towns and cities outside London.

    So yes that is bad news for the economy actually if it leads to job losses.

    However the loss was almost entirely down to the 19 weeks of lockdown it faced like most pubs and hospitality venues, so hopefully its profits will pick up again now lockdown has ended
    By no definition can a pub be a big employer in a town / city.

    It's only big because it's got pubs in every town and city and 40 jobs times 950 pubs is a lot of people.
    If you are a small town of say 10,000 people then one Wetherspoons actually will be a pretty big employer and presence on the high street, plus taking account of local suppliers too.

    In larger cities of course there are often several Wetherspoons across the city
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,979
    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    Which is why I think there's no need for the death penalty.

    A life sentence also takes your life but forces you to live it as well - arguably worse.
    I think that being forced to stew with your own regrets for years on end is an underrated punishment.

    I think I'd opt for execution in preference to life in a US Super-Max prison.
    I'm no woolly liberal but I think some US prisons are borderline inhumane.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 17,252
    HYUFD said:

    Pub chain Wetherspoon reports record loss

    Oh dear how sad never mind

    Wetherspoon's is a big employer in most small towns and cities outside London.

    So yes that is bad news for the economy actually if it leads to job losses.

    However the loss was almost entirely down to the 19 weeks of lockdown it faced like most pubs and hospitality venues, so hopefully its profits will pick up again now lockdown has ended
    Hopefully not. It is a leech on the diversity of choice for drinking. Scene of frequent disorder. And enthusiastic purveyor of misinformation. Closes smaller pubs and cafes.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347
    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    I see SKS said he thinks the next James Bond should be a woman

    Dont tell Rosie Duffield

    Isn't that just the easiest laziest answer to a completely irrelevant question for a politician to be asked.
    My answer would be more circumspect: "I'm excited to find out who the next Bond will be, it would be fun to see what they could do with a woman in the role, but I'm sure there are many male actors who would also be great choices."
    The trouble with these sorts of questions is that they get column inches and people end up saying "hasn't Keir Starmer got bigger things to worry about than the next Bond?!?" And, of course, he has - but he was just answering the question given.

    Incidentally, I absolutely don't think there should be a female Bond.

    Firstly, film makers should be creating new, strong female leads - not some sort of novelty hand-me-down of a six decade old franchise.

    Secondly, James Bond is not Dr Who - it is not, in the story, a pseudonym, and he does not regenerate. It is just a different actor playing exactly the same character. Indeed, there are occasional back-references. Of course, the huge plot hole is that Bond should now be in his 90s. But the premise of the story is simply not that Daniel Craig was given the Bond name and 007 number when Piers Brosnan retired - it is that Craig IS Brosnan etc.
    Yes, Bond is like Bart Simpson. He never grows up.
    Hence Archer - just renewed for another season BTW.....
  • Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    This may seem a strange thing to say, but I suspect the average murderer is not an especially bad person. I think that in the wrong circumstances, many of us could do the same.

    But, there are people who are truly wicked, soulless really, and a real danger to the public, and not necessarily murderers, either.
    A friend of mine nearly murdered someone. He’s a big chap, 6 foot 5, genial, clever, engineering type. Likes cricket.

    But he has this terrible temper which, about every 15 years, descends into lunatic rage. I once saw him pick up a deeply irritating stupid person by the neck and ram him against a wall. Because of my friend’s size and strength he nearly strangled the fool to death. It’s only coz others pulled him away that he didn’t commit murder. Instead the victim meekly slipped away, my friend had a few days of mortified shame, and life went on

    Otherwise he’s a fine upstanding member of society. Father, hard worker, pays his taxes, etc
    What did this guy do to irritate him, out of interest?
    Its a long time back but IIRC he cheated at cricket, and was then loutishly smug about it. No joke

    My friend is a stickler for fair play. So decided to throttle him
    Your mate sounds like a tool.
    He’s really not. He’s just got a vicious temper which he generally restrains well - but for about 2 minutes every 20 years the red mist truly descends.

    There haven’t been any eruptions of late. Perhaps he’s done Anger Management
    Of course, in baseball there's a huge and longstanding 'honour culture' - cheat at that and you get those scenes where the opposing team runs on the pitch and starts a riot.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,832
    edited October 2021
    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    One of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. I think life can be a harsher sentence.
    Especially in Dartmoor. What a depressing place.

    It’s due to shut forever in 2023. God knows what they will do with it. The architecture is kind of imperious, in a 200-year-old, Satanic way. And it’s listed. So they can’t knock it down. A hotel?!

    I have stayed in the Breakwater Hotel in Cape Town, which was the old Cape Town (whites only!) Prison. Great location on the waterfront.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 15,066

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    Which is why I think there's no need for the death penalty.

    A life sentence also takes your life but forces you to live it as well - arguably worse.
    I think that being forced to stew with your own regrets for years on end is an underrated punishment.

    I think I'd opt for execution in preference to life in a US Super-Max prison.
    I'm no woolly liberal but I think some US prisons are borderline inhumane.
    Check max security Israeli prisons. They have actual dungeons. Lightless cells several storeys underground. You never see the day, from one decade to the next
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 5,565
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    On investigation, it turns out the average life sentence actually served in the UK is 16.5 years. That seems a bit low to me. 20 is more imposing. But I don’t believe every murderer needs to be banged up til they croak. Couzens is an unusual case that DOES demand that

    There are about 60 "life means life" convicts in the UK, I believe. That's actually more than I would have guessed. I'd thought it was just a handful.
    Its a pretty extreme sentence. But necessary in some cases

    There have been attempts to get these sentences deemed inhumane: at the ECHR

    https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/fs_life_sentences_eng.pdf
    If we as a society are not prepared to rid ourselves of scum like Couzens by the noose (or whatever method is chosen) then I'm afraid we do need full-life tariffs. Its not deterrence. He wasn't thinking he'd get caught. Its just that he has no place in our society.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,191
    edited October 2021

    dixiedean said:

    On the excellent header, I'm inclined to agree that Cressida Dick needs to go, and quickly. This is a necessary, but not sufficient, start to reforming the Met.

    Obviously top leadership is crucial to shaping organisational culture. But so also is the leadership provided by second and third tier managers/leaders, who have to give expression to the values and behaviours demanded by The Leader.

    Now I'm only guessing, so apologies for that, but I have a strong suspicion that in an organisation as large as, and with the history of, the Met, the problem lies as much with other leaders as it does with the Top Leader. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Met needs a root and branch clear-out of all those managers/leaders that are more supportive of the Met's dodgy canteen culture than they are of the values and behaviours demanded by the top.

    Trouble is. That is a decades long process.
    Unless you bring in leaders outwith the Police force. And I can't see that being practically feasible.
    There will be more than a few Establishment figures saying the problem with the police is that none of them did PPE at Oxford. Even in the New Labour years, some seemed to despair that highly-paid jobs were being dished out to working class oiks made good.
    Lord Paddick, ex Met with a postgrad degree from Cambridge has I see been on saying the police are still not pro LGBT enough and gender diverse enough.

    The issue with Couzens was more he was a pyschopath who was not picked up on earlier despite odd behaviour and earlier complaints against him
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 3,497

    Anecdata on fuel:

    Queue of about 15 cars at Sainsbury's in my nearest small town. I cycled serenely past them.

    No queues at my local garage. Because it's closed. Still major problems down here on the south coast, despite those claiming it's over. The worst thing is that the gridlocks caused by fuel queues are disrupting the buses severely. Daughter has had to get a taxi to work because of no buses on three days this week.
  • Pub chain Wetherspoon reports record loss

    Oh dear how sad never mind

    Well, I got barred from my local Wetherspoon's when the first lockdown ended, so that couldn't have helped.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 46,480
    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    One of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. I think life can be a harsher sentence.
    Especially in Dartmoor. What a depressing place.

    It’s due to shut forever in 2023. God knows what they will do with it. The architecture is kind of imperious, in a 200-year-old, Satanic way. And it’s listed. So they can’t knock it down. A hotel?!

    There was a powerful documentary on a few years ago (Storyville series I think) which followed life in a Russian prison for hardened murderers and so on who could not be executed. I think the Russians had got rid of death penalty, but I may be wrong on that.

    Anyway it was grim. Bleak beyond imagination really. Out in Siberia. Nearest town hundreds of miles. The most basic conditions. Cells the size of a dining room table, appalling temperatures, dire food and so on.

    They were allowed a family visit.

    Once every five years!

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 18,564
    My cartoon Friday @TheTimes. Paltry poultry…..#Christmas #turkeysupplies #johnsongovernment https://twitter.com/BrookesTimes/status/1443901494357549059/photo/1
  • StockyStocky Posts: 7,662

    Anecdata on fuel:

    Queue of about 15 cars at Sainsbury's in my nearest small town. I cycled serenely past them.

    I passed garage and no fuel. Hour and a half in gym and then passed same garage and all pumps working. Yeah. They must fill up quickly when a tanker arrives!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,681

    Latest French Opinion Poll making things look a bit more interesting.

    Macron 23%

    Le Pen 16%

    Bertrand 14%

    Melenchon 13%

    Zemmour 13%

    (Harris 24-27th Sept.)

    https://harris-interactive.fr/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2021/09/Rapport-Harris-Vague-15-Intentions-de-vote-Presidentielle-2022-Challenges.pdf

    Zemmour isn't a confirmed candidate but he is really eating into Le Pen's vote so somebody who could actually beat Macron might make the final two (unless it's Zemmour himself).

    Barnier?
    poll offered 3 different options for the LR candidate assuming only 1 stood.. Bertrand scored 14%, Pecresse 12%, Barnier 8%. I only gave the Bertrand numbers above as he scored most and the selection method they have chosen is thought to favour him getting the nod.
    Thanks.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 69,335
    edited October 2021
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    This may seem a strange thing to say, but I suspect the average murderer is not an especially bad person. I think that in the wrong circumstances, many of us could do the same.

    But, there are people who are truly wicked, soulless really, and a real danger to the public, and not necessarily murderers, either.
    A friend of mine nearly murdered someone. He’s a big chap, 6 foot 5, genial, clever, engineering type. Likes cricket.

    But he has this terrible temper which, about every 15 years, descends into lunatic rage. I once saw him pick up a deeply irritating stupid person by the neck and ram him against a wall. Because of my friend’s size and strength he nearly strangled the fool to death. It’s only coz others pulled him away that he didn’t commit murder. Instead the victim meekly slipped away, my friend had a few days of mortified shame, and life went on

    Otherwise he’s a fine upstanding member of society. Father, hard worker, pays his taxes, etc
    What did this guy do to irritate him, out of interest?
    Its a long time back but IIRC he cheated at cricket, and was then loutishly smug about it. No joke

    My friend is a stickler for fair play. So decided to throttle him
    Your mate sounds like a tool.
    He’s really not. He’s just got a vicious temper which he generally restrains well - but for about 2 minutes every 20 years the red mist truly descends.

    There haven’t been any eruptions of late. Perhaps he’s done Anger Management
    Was Stuart Broad OK ?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHhZb-cBKwc
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,651
    rkrkrk said:

    kinabalu said:
    Disagree. It's weak stuff from him and much less thoughtful than what he normally produces.
    What are the promises that Starmer has broken? He doesn't really say.

    All it amounts to is complaints that the left have been frozen out of certain positions and some desperately dull internal rule changes. Then he restates criticisms of whether Starmer is electable.
    He's talking about the promise to retain the radicalism of the Corbyn era. I do recall him stressing that during the leadership campaign.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 5,565
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    Fine - don't kill people then.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,191
    edited October 2021
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pub chain Wetherspoon reports record loss

    Oh dear how sad never mind

    Wetherspoon's is a big employer in most small towns and cities outside London.

    So yes that is bad news for the economy actually if it leads to job losses.

    However the loss was almost entirely down to the 19 weeks of lockdown it faced like most pubs and hospitality venues, so hopefully its profits will pick up again now lockdown has ended
    Hopefully not. It is a leech on the diversity of choice for drinking. Scene of frequent disorder. And enthusiastic purveyor of misinformation. Closes smaller pubs and cafes.
    It provides cheap food and drink and is a big employer.

    Pubs and cafes popular with locals, in a scenic location or with history and with an attractive menu and entertainment will still survive despite Wetherspoons. Generic pubs won't. Customers will either go to Wetherspoons if they just want a fry up or drink or else buy or order in drinks from the supermarket as they did during lockdown
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    On the excellent header, I'm inclined to agree that Cressida Dick needs to go, and quickly. This is a necessary, but not sufficient, start to reforming the Met.

    Obviously top leadership is crucial to shaping organisational culture. But so also is the leadership provided by second and third tier managers/leaders, who have to give expression to the values and behaviours demanded by The Leader.

    Now I'm only guessing, so apologies for that, but I have a strong suspicion that in an organisation as large as, and with the history of, the Met, the problem lies as much with other leaders as it does with the Top Leader. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Met needs a root and branch clear-out of all those managers/leaders that are more supportive of the Met's dodgy canteen culture than they are of the values and behaviours demanded by the top.

    Trouble is. That is a decades long process.
    Unless you bring in leaders outwith the Police force. And I can't see that being practically feasible.
    There will be more than a few Establishment figures saying the problem with the police is that none of them did PPE at Oxford. Even in the New Labour years, some seemed to despair that highly-paid jobs were being dished out to working class oiks made good.
    Lord Paddick, ex Met with a postgrad degree from Cambridge has I see been on saying the police are still not pro LGBT enough and gender diverse enough.

    The issue with Couzens was more he was a pyschopath who was not picked up on earlier despite odd behaviour
    Constable Savage is undoubtedly alive, well, passed his diversity courses and is out arresting people for ordering "black" coffee. Black people, probably.

    The issue people had with the police is the uniform (ha), protect-the-instutution, nothing-is-wrong policy that the SMT presented to the politicians.

    Which is why, at one point, there was talking of importing an American as head cop for the Met....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 69,335
    edited October 2021
    Lol my colleague's just been pinged and has been given a message to self isolate. He's my lift back from the office this afternoon :o !

    What's the rules around this ?

    The app has given no clue as to when his 10 days should have started
  • Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    One of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. I think life can be a harsher sentence.
    I always thought one of the more persuasive arguments against the death penalty was the damage it did to society as much as the termination of a life. If justice is essentially reduced to an eye for an eye we're fcuked.
    Not that I'm saying we're not fcuked just to be clear..
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 5,565
    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Yes I basically agree. Imagine a boy who joins a south London gang at 15 then stabs a rival to death in a fracas, age 20. If he gets out 17 years later I’d say that’s probably fair. He did a terrible thing and has lost the best years of his life as a result. Now he gets a chance to be a decent citizen and repay

    Any murder accompanied by, say, rape, should be 25 years minimum. Likewise terrorism

    I remember reading a study of jail sentences. There is a length of sentence after which almost no one ever reoffends, I believe it is about 15 years (but I need to check). In essence, if you spend that long in prison it changes you - breaks you, perhaps. You never want to go back inside. Psychos are different of course, they cannot be helped

    That’s why I was surprised by the guy who did 18 years then murdered again. Incredibly unusual

    Most psychopaths go through life without offending. You probably know one or two.
    Quite a lot of high flying academics are psychopaths. Can be uttering charming when they want, are driven, work single mindedly on stuff, but ultimately its all about them. I know several from my career.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 3,162
    kinabalu said:

    Taz said:

    kinabalu said:
    Starmer only lied to lunatics, trots and entryists in order to take over the party. He will be practically applauded by ex-Labour voters for having now told said trots where to get off.
    I am no fan of Starmer but he has had a decent week, his speech was too long, but if he is antagonising the likes of Owen Jones he cannot be doing anything wrong.
    This is the sentiment I was referring to. The more the left complains the better, is how I think he's looking at things. I don't like it myself, then again what I'd like even less is several more years of Boris Johnson, so if Keir is calling this right, electorally, and so long as the policies are not insipid, I'm happy enough. Didn't vote for him as leader, my pref was Nandy, but I hope he can succeed, pull off the trick of winning on a platform worth winning on.
    The point here, I think, is that Starmer hasn't really put out any policies yet, let alone a manifesto. So who says he was lying in the leadership contest?

    Or did he promise an infinite tolerance approach to antisemitism and internal sabotage* of Labour's election chances?

    *not sure whether deliberate or not - do those causing trouble want Labour to do badly in the hop of toppling Starmer, or do they really not think they're doing harm (same questions apply, of course, to those who rebelled under Corbyn - and different questions to those who did not)
  • dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Yes I basically agree. Imagine a boy who joins a south London gang at 15 then stabs a rival to death in a fracas, age 20. If he gets out 17 years later I’d say that’s probably fair. He did a terrible thing and has lost the best years of his life as a result. Now he gets a chance to be a decent citizen and repay

    Any murder accompanied by, say, rape, should be 25 years minimum. Likewise terrorism

    I remember reading a study of jail sentences. There is a length of sentence after which almost no one ever reoffends, I believe it is about 15 years (but I need to check). In essence, if you spend that long in prison it changes you - breaks you, perhaps. You never want to go back inside. Psychos are different of course, they cannot be helped

    That’s why I was surprised by the guy who did 18 years then murdered again. Incredibly unusual

    Most psychopaths go through life without offending. You probably know one or two.
    Quite a lot of high flying academics are psychopaths. Can be uttering charming when they want, are driven, work single mindedly on stuff, but ultimately its all about them. I know several from my career.
    The finance industry says hi.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 26,097

    Sean_F said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    Which is why I think there's no need for the death penalty.

    A life sentence also takes your life but forces you to live it as well - arguably worse.
    I think that being forced to stew with your own regrets for years on end is an underrated punishment.

    I think I'd opt for execution in preference to life in a US Super-Max prison.
    I'm no woolly liberal but I think some US prisons are borderline inhumane.
    Howard Marks was quite interesting on the matter.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347

    eek said:

    I see SKS said he thinks the next James Bond should be a woman

    Dont tell Rosie Duffield

    Isn't that just the easiest laziest answer to a completely irrelevant question for a politician to be asked.
    James Bond should not be a woman. If you want an equivalent, exciting, powerful, dramatic female agent, write one and make that film.
    Been done - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2406566/

    She is an alcoholic (vodka for choice), investigates by proving the bad guys until they try and kill her. Stays in posh hotels and is a fashion snob, unlike those around her. Wins brutal fights by the skin of her teeth. Oh, and is a womaniser.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 15,066

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    Fine - don't kill people then.
    No argument from me. As I said even before the sentence, Couzens deserves the whole life tariff

    Indeed I think this is a rare occasion of complete PB agreement
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 26,097

    Pub chain Wetherspoon reports record loss

    Oh dear how sad never mind

    Well, I got barred from my local Wetherspoon's when the first lockdown ended, so that couldn't have helped.
    What did you do? Go in wearing an EU label button?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 5,565

    eek said:

    I see SKS said he thinks the next James Bond should be a woman

    Dont tell Rosie Duffield

    Isn't that just the easiest laziest answer to a completely irrelevant question for a politician to be asked.
    My answer would be more circumspect: "I'm excited to find out who the next Bond will be, it would be fun to see what they could do with a woman in the role, but I'm sure there are many male actors who would also be great choices."
    The trouble with these sorts of questions is that they get column inches and people end up saying "hasn't Keir Starmer got bigger things to worry about than the next Bond?!?" And, of course, he has - but he was just answering the question given.

    Incidentally, I absolutely don't think there should be a female Bond.

    Firstly, film makers should be creating new, strong female leads - not some sort of novelty hand-me-down of a six decade old franchise.

    Secondly, James Bond is not Dr Who - it is not, in the story, a pseudonym, and he does not regenerate. It is just a different actor playing exactly the same character. Indeed, there are occasional back-references. Of course, the huge plot hole is that Bond should now be in his 90s. But the premise of the story is simply not that Daniel Craig was given the Bond name and 007 number when Piers Brosnan retired - it is that Craig IS Brosnan etc.
    In my view Bond is actually a new 007 each time - i.e. the world of Brosnan is totally separate from the world of Craig. It doesn't work if you try to have them as a new agent stepping into being 007 as they all have the same back story. I have no issue with this - its the same as batman movies.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,191
    edited October 2021
    HYUFD said:

    Latest French Opinion Poll making things look a bit more interesting.

    Macron 23%

    Le Pen 16%

    Bertrand 14%

    Melenchon 13%

    Zemmour 13%

    (Harris 24-27th Sept.)

    https://harris-interactive.fr/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2021/09/Rapport-Harris-Vague-15-Intentions-de-vote-Presidentielle-2022-Challenges.pdf

    Zemmour isn't a confirmed candidate but he is really eating into Le Pen's vote so somebody who could actually beat Macron might make the final two (unless it's Zemmour himself).

    Barnier?
    Barnier likely won't get the centre right nomination, Bertrand will likely win the support of Les Republicains in their party convention to pick their candidate in December.

    Bertrand v Macron would be neck and neck in the second round, whereas Le Pen v Macron would still see Macron win by about 10%

    Note too Barnier is only on 8% to 14% for Bertrand.

    So if Barnier was Les Republicains candidate it would still likely be Le Pen v Macron, if Bertrand was LR candidate though it might be Bertrand v Macron
    https://harris-interactive.fr/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2021/09/Rapport-Harris-Vague-15-Intentions-de-vote-Presidentielle-2022-Challenges.pdf
  • Pub chain Wetherspoon reports record loss

    Oh dear how sad never mind

    Well, I got barred from my local Wetherspoon's when the first lockdown ended, so that couldn't have helped.
    Did they catch a whiff of remainer off you?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 5,565
    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    One of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. I think life can be a harsher sentence.
    Especially in Dartmoor. What a depressing place.

    It’s due to shut forever in 2023. God knows what they will do with it. The architecture is kind of imperious, in a 200-year-old, Satanic way. And it’s listed. So they can’t knock it down. A hotel?!

    Specialist hotel where you experience prison life for a day and night... Could be awesome, or just shit.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Yes I basically agree. Imagine a boy who joins a south London gang at 15 then stabs a rival to death in a fracas, age 20. If he gets out 17 years later I’d say that’s probably fair. He did a terrible thing and has lost the best years of his life as a result. Now he gets a chance to be a decent citizen and repay

    Any murder accompanied by, say, rape, should be 25 years minimum. Likewise terrorism

    I remember reading a study of jail sentences. There is a length of sentence after which almost no one ever reoffends, I believe it is about 15 years (but I need to check). In essence, if you spend that long in prison it changes you - breaks you, perhaps. You never want to go back inside. Psychos are different of course, they cannot be helped

    That’s why I was surprised by the guy who did 18 years then murdered again. Incredibly unusual

    Most psychopaths go through life without offending. You probably know one or two.
    Quite a lot of high flying academics are psychopaths. Can be uttering charming when they want, are driven, work single mindedly on stuff, but ultimately its all about them. I know several from my career.
    The finance industry says hi.
    Someone I worked with moved from academia to the oil industry. He went through the political scene like a chainsaw through cheese.

    When you have ben trained to fight to the death for a few hundred quid in funding.....
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 17,252

    dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Yes I basically agree. Imagine a boy who joins a south London gang at 15 then stabs a rival to death in a fracas, age 20. If he gets out 17 years later I’d say that’s probably fair. He did a terrible thing and has lost the best years of his life as a result. Now he gets a chance to be a decent citizen and repay

    Any murder accompanied by, say, rape, should be 25 years minimum. Likewise terrorism

    I remember reading a study of jail sentences. There is a length of sentence after which almost no one ever reoffends, I believe it is about 15 years (but I need to check). In essence, if you spend that long in prison it changes you - breaks you, perhaps. You never want to go back inside. Psychos are different of course, they cannot be helped

    That’s why I was surprised by the guy who did 18 years then murdered again. Incredibly unusual

    Most psychopaths go through life without offending. You probably know one or two.
    Quite a lot of high flying academics are psychopaths. Can be uttering charming when they want, are driven, work single mindedly on stuff, but ultimately its all about them. I know several from my career.
    Surgeons and CEO's are heavily represented. Both require a particular level of emotional detachment.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    This may seem a strange thing to say, but I suspect the average murderer is not an especially bad person. I think that in the wrong circumstances, many of us could do the same.

    But, there are people who are truly wicked, soulless really, and a real danger to the public, and not necessarily murderers, either.
    A friend of mine nearly murdered someone. He’s a big chap, 6 foot 5, genial, clever, engineering type. Likes cricket.

    But he has this terrible temper which, about every 15 years, descends into lunatic rage. I once saw him pick up a deeply irritating stupid person by the neck and ram him against a wall. Because of my friend’s size and strength he nearly strangled the fool to death. It’s only coz others pulled him away that he didn’t commit murder. Instead the victim meekly slipped away, my friend had a few days of mortified shame, and life went on

    Otherwise he’s a fine upstanding member of society. Father, hard worker, pays his taxes, etc
    What did this guy do to irritate him, out of interest?
    Its a long time back but IIRC he cheated at cricket, and was then loutishly smug about it. No joke

    My friend is a stickler for fair play. So decided to throttle him
    Your mate sounds like a tool.
    He’s really not. He’s just got a vicious temper which he generally restrains well - but for about 2 minutes every 20 years the red mist truly descends.

    There haven’t been any eruptions of late. Perhaps he’s done Anger Management
    Was Stuart Broad OK ?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHhZb-cBKwc
    Michael Clarke had no right to complain there, the only time he walks is if he's out of petrol.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347
    edited October 2021
    deleted
  • lols
    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/only-four-per-cent-of-britons-think-brexit-has-gone-very-well/ar-AAP0NVg?ocid=entnewsntp.

    Some of those ostriches, sorry 4%, post regularly on here. I know, I know, we all have to accept that we have left, but it won't stop those of us who knew it was pointless laughing at the gullible fools who believed "it is going to be great"
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,808

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    One of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. I think life can be a harsher sentence.
    Especially in Dartmoor. What a depressing place.

    It’s due to shut forever in 2023. God knows what they will do with it. The architecture is kind of imperious, in a 200-year-old, Satanic way. And it’s listed. So they can’t knock it down. A hotel?!

    Specialist hotel where you experience prison life for a day and night... Could be awesome, or just shit.

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    One of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. I think life can be a harsher sentence.
    Especially in Dartmoor. What a depressing place.

    It’s due to shut forever in 2023. God knows what they will do with it. The architecture is kind of imperious, in a 200-year-old, Satanic way. And it’s listed. So they can’t knock it down. A hotel?!

    Specialist hotel where you experience prison life for a day and night... Could be awesome, or just shit.
    Already done. Oxford Prison. Can't remotely imagine staying there.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 18,564

    In my view Bond is actually a new 007 each time - i.e. the world of Brosnan is totally separate from the world of Craig. It doesn't work if you try to have them as a new agent stepping into being 007 as they all have the same back story. I have no issue with this - its the same as batman movies.

    The real star of this James Bond era is Eva Green for haunting the damn dude through five separate movies
    https://twitter.com/kylebuchanan/status/1442977823820484609
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,651
    edited October 2021

    kinabalu said:
    It is a powerful piece. But I think Owen Jones is being rather naïve. There are two views about Starmer's leadership campaign:

    1. He lied through his teeth.
    2. He did what he needed to do to win (i.e. not alienate the left too much).

    I'm not comfortable with either, but the proof of the pudding..... He won.
    Yes, I'm with you on balance. I sense Starmer's instincts are sound, that he has a big chance of next PM and could end up being a good one. It's just that if Labour lose the edge which the likes of Jones imo bring, I will miss that. I think the prospect of a Labour government should make people anxious, so long as it's the right people feeling that way.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 69,335
    Pulpstar said:

    Lol my colleague's just been pinged and has been given a message to self isolate. He's my lift back from the office this afternoon :o !

    What's the rules around this ?

    The app has given no clue as to when his 10 days should have started

    Lol now he's put in that he's double jabbed to the website and they've told him he doesn't need to isolate. But the "ping" was from the NHS, and he's double jabbed on err... their systems.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 18,564
    No end in sight to the fuel crisis in my neck of the woods, despite ministers’ protestations. Both petrol stations in my West Sussex town have been dry for two days now. Anecdotally from friends, the same true across the South - long long queues and many petrol stations closed. https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1443905717346480129/photo/1
  • Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    This may seem a strange thing to say, but I suspect the average murderer is not an especially bad person. I think that in the wrong circumstances, many of us could do the same.

    But, there are people who are truly wicked, soulless really, and a real danger to the public, and not necessarily murderers, either.
    A friend of mine nearly murdered someone. He’s a big chap, 6 foot 5, genial, clever, engineering type. Likes cricket.

    But he has this terrible temper which, about every 15 years, descends into lunatic rage. I once saw him pick up a deeply irritating stupid person by the neck and ram him against a wall. Because of my friend’s size and strength he nearly strangled the fool to death. It’s only coz others pulled him away that he didn’t commit murder. Instead the victim meekly slipped away, my friend had a few days of mortified shame, and life went on

    Otherwise he’s a fine upstanding member of society. Father, hard worker, pays his taxes, etc
    What did this guy do to irritate him, out of interest?
    Its a long time back but IIRC he cheated at cricket, and was then loutishly smug about it. No joke

    My friend is a stickler for fair play. So decided to throttle him
    Your mate sounds like a tool.
    Should have been charged with assault
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    One of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. I think life can be a harsher sentence.
    Especially in Dartmoor. What a depressing place.

    It’s due to shut forever in 2023. God knows what they will do with it. The architecture is kind of imperious, in a 200-year-old, Satanic way. And it’s listed. So they can’t knock it down. A hotel?!

    Specialist hotel where you experience prison life for a day and night... Could be awesome, or just shit.

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    One of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. I think life can be a harsher sentence.
    Especially in Dartmoor. What a depressing place.

    It’s due to shut forever in 2023. God knows what they will do with it. The architecture is kind of imperious, in a 200-year-old, Satanic way. And it’s listed. So they can’t knock it down. A hotel?!

    Specialist hotel where you experience prison life for a day and night... Could be awesome, or just shit.
    Already done. Oxford Prison. Can't remotely imagine staying there.
    Supposed to be really nice....
  • dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Yes I basically agree. Imagine a boy who joins a south London gang at 15 then stabs a rival to death in a fracas, age 20. If he gets out 17 years later I’d say that’s probably fair. He did a terrible thing and has lost the best years of his life as a result. Now he gets a chance to be a decent citizen and repay

    Any murder accompanied by, say, rape, should be 25 years minimum. Likewise terrorism

    I remember reading a study of jail sentences. There is a length of sentence after which almost no one ever reoffends, I believe it is about 15 years (but I need to check). In essence, if you spend that long in prison it changes you - breaks you, perhaps. You never want to go back inside. Psychos are different of course, they cannot be helped

    That’s why I was surprised by the guy who did 18 years then murdered again. Incredibly unusual

    Most psychopaths go through life without offending. You probably know one or two.
    Quite a lot of high flying academics are psychopaths. Can be uttering charming when they want, are driven, work single mindedly on stuff, but ultimately its all about them. I know several from my career.
    Sociopaths perhaps, rather than psychopaths.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 12,466

    eek said:

    I see SKS said he thinks the next James Bond should be a woman

    Dont tell Rosie Duffield

    Isn't that just the easiest laziest answer to a completely irrelevant question for a politician to be asked.
    James Bond should not be a woman. If you want an equivalent, exciting, powerful, dramatic female agent, write one and make that film.
    Been done - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2406566/

    She is an alcoholic (vodka for choice), investigates by proving the bad guys until they try and kill her. Stays in posh hotels and is a fashion snob, unlike those around her. Wins brutal fights by the skin of her teeth. Oh, and is a womaniser.
    Atomic Blonde is a crap film. Rubbish.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 15,066
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:
    It is a powerful piece. But I think Owen Jones is being rather naïve. There are two views about Starmer's leadership campaign:

    1. He lied through his teeth.
    2. He did what he needed to do to win (i.e. not alienate the left too much).

    I'm not comfortable with either, but the proof of the pudding..... He won.
    Yes, I'm with you on balance. I sense Starmer's instincts are sound, that he has a big chance of next PM and could end up being a good one. It's just that if Labour lose the edge which the likes of Jones imo bring, I will miss that. I think the prospect of a Labour government should make people anxious, so long as it's the right people feeling that way.
    The truly intriguing thing about the Owen Jones piece is that it’s just one of many anti-Starmer hit jobs in the Guardian. They’ve run dozens, indeed probably more negative articles than positive

    As the paper of record for Labour, it’s a striking decision
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,808

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    One of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. I think life can be a harsher sentence.
    Especially in Dartmoor. What a depressing place.

    It’s due to shut forever in 2023. God knows what they will do with it. The architecture is kind of imperious, in a 200-year-old, Satanic way. And it’s listed. So they can’t knock it down. A hotel?!

    Specialist hotel where you experience prison life for a day and night... Could be awesome, or just shit.

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    One of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. I think life can be a harsher sentence.
    Especially in Dartmoor. What a depressing place.

    It’s due to shut forever in 2023. God knows what they will do with it. The architecture is kind of imperious, in a 200-year-old, Satanic way. And it’s listed. So they can’t knock it down. A hotel?!

    Specialist hotel where you experience prison life for a day and night... Could be awesome, or just shit.
    Already done. Oxford Prison. Can't remotely imagine staying there.
    Supposed to be really nice....
    It's certainly convenient for the station, though the brewery with attached pub next door to the prison is no more (happy memories of roaming the area when visiting friends - did you know Roger Bacon is buried at the back of M&S? the area between the then M&S and Oxpens (?) used to be rubble + car park - but there was a memorial plaque on the arse of M&S. One of my favourite Oxonian spots).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347

    eek said:

    I see SKS said he thinks the next James Bond should be a woman

    Dont tell Rosie Duffield

    Isn't that just the easiest laziest answer to a completely irrelevant question for a politician to be asked.
    James Bond should not be a woman. If you want an equivalent, exciting, powerful, dramatic female agent, write one and make that film.
    Been done - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2406566/

    She is an alcoholic (vodka for choice), investigates by proving the bad guys until they try and kill her. Stays in posh hotels and is a fashion snob, unlike those around her. Wins brutal fights by the skin of her teeth. Oh, and is a womaniser.
    Atomic Blonde is a crap film. Rubbish.
    The plot is junk - but there have been far worse Bond films. Die Another Day?

    The characters are fun, and the evocation of a certain period of history is brilliantly done.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 12,466
    Pulpstar said:

    Lol my colleague's just been pinged and has been given a message to self isolate. He's my lift back from the office this afternoon :o !

    What's the rules around this ?

    The app has given no clue as to when his 10 days should have started

    WTF? You mean some people are still using the app?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,770
    Mr. Foremain, even now, I have no idea what the difference is meant to be.

    One suggestion I liked was that psychopaths are capable of empathy and genuinely caring for people, but can switch that off at will if they want to, whereas sociopaths just cannot do it at all.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,808

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    One of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. I think life can be a harsher sentence.
    Especially in Dartmoor. What a depressing place.

    It’s due to shut forever in 2023. God knows what they will do with it. The architecture is kind of imperious, in a 200-year-old, Satanic way. And it’s listed. So they can’t knock it down. A hotel?!

    Specialist hotel where you experience prison life for a day and night... Could be awesome, or just shit.

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    One of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. I think life can be a harsher sentence.
    Especially in Dartmoor. What a depressing place.

    It’s due to shut forever in 2023. God knows what they will do with it. The architecture is kind of imperious, in a 200-year-old, Satanic way. And it’s listed. So they can’t knock it down. A hotel?!

    Specialist hotel where you experience prison life for a day and night... Could be awesome, or just shit.
    Already done. Oxford Prison. Can't remotely imagine staying there.
    Supposed to be really nice....
    Hmm ... rather missing the point surely.

    https://www.malmaison.com/locations/oxford/rooms-suites/
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 3,497
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:
    It is a powerful piece. But I think Owen Jones is being rather naïve. There are two views about Starmer's leadership campaign:

    1. He lied through his teeth.
    2. He did what he needed to do to win (i.e. not alienate the left too much).

    I'm not comfortable with either, but the proof of the pudding..... He won.
    Yes, I'm with you on balance. I sense Starmer's instincts are sound, that he has a big chance of next PM and could end up being a good one. It's just that if Labour lose the edge which the likes of Jones imo bring, I will miss that. I think the prospect of a Labour government should make people anxious, so long as it's the right people feeling that way.
    Owen Jones may change his mind on Starmer. Didn't he have a bit of a rollercoaster ride with Corbyn? I agree with the thrust of what you're saying, but we should be aiming to make a significant minority anxious, not a majority. We'll be able to tell if Starmer is hitting the right notes by the level of hysteria on PB.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 12,466
    edited October 2021

    eek said:

    I see SKS said he thinks the next James Bond should be a woman

    Dont tell Rosie Duffield

    Isn't that just the easiest laziest answer to a completely irrelevant question for a politician to be asked.
    James Bond should not be a woman. If you want an equivalent, exciting, powerful, dramatic female agent, write one and make that film.
    Been done - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2406566/

    She is an alcoholic (vodka for choice), investigates by proving the bad guys until they try and kill her. Stays in posh hotels and is a fashion snob, unlike those around her. Wins brutal fights by the skin of her teeth. Oh, and is a womaniser.
    Atomic Blonde is a crap film. Rubbish.
    The plot is junk - but there have been far worse Bond films. Die Another Day?

    The characters are fun, and the evocation of a certain period of history is brilliantly done.
    Nah. It's really disappointing. Over-stylised tosh – which is a shame as the concept was excellent. The tragedy is that there's a real risk that moviemakers will avoid trying it again.

    (P.S. Yes, it's arguably marginally better than Die Another Day – but that is the epitome of damning by faint praise)
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 5,565

    Anecdata on fuel:

    Queue of about 15 cars at Sainsbury's in my nearest small town. I cycled serenely past them.

    Judging by the google trick, all the fuel stations in Warminster (my locale) now have fuel.
  • Foxy said:

    eek said:

    I see SKS said he thinks the next James Bond should be a woman

    Dont tell Rosie Duffield

    Isn't that just the easiest laziest answer to a completely irrelevant question for a politician to be asked.
    My answer would be more circumspect: "I'm excited to find out who the next Bond will be, it would be fun to see what they could do with a woman in the role, but I'm sure there are many male actors who would also be great choices."
    The trouble with these sorts of questions is that they get column inches and people end up saying "hasn't Keir Starmer got bigger things to worry about than the next Bond?!?" And, of course, he has - but he was just answering the question given.

    Incidentally, I absolutely don't think there should be a female Bond.

    Firstly, film makers should be creating new, strong female leads - not some sort of novelty hand-me-down of a six decade old franchise.

    Secondly, James Bond is not Dr Who - it is not, in the story, a pseudonym, and he does not regenerate. It is just a different actor playing exactly the same character. Indeed, there are occasional back-references. Of course, the huge plot hole is that Bond should now be in his 90s. But the premise of the story is simply not that Daniel Craig was given the Bond name and 007 number when Piers Brosnan retired - it is that Craig IS Brosnan etc.
    Yes, Bond is like Bart Simpson. He never grows up.
    Like Bond fans.

    And Simpsons fans.

    And Dr Who fans.
  • Foxy said:

    eek said:

    I see SKS said he thinks the next James Bond should be a woman

    Dont tell Rosie Duffield

    Isn't that just the easiest laziest answer to a completely irrelevant question for a politician to be asked.
    My answer would be more circumspect: "I'm excited to find out who the next Bond will be, it would be fun to see what they could do with a woman in the role, but I'm sure there are many male actors who would also be great choices."
    The trouble with these sorts of questions is that they get column inches and people end up saying "hasn't Keir Starmer got bigger things to worry about than the next Bond?!?" And, of course, he has - but he was just answering the question given.

    Incidentally, I absolutely don't think there should be a female Bond.

    Firstly, film makers should be creating new, strong female leads - not some sort of novelty hand-me-down of a six decade old franchise.

    Secondly, James Bond is not Dr Who - it is not, in the story, a pseudonym, and he does not regenerate. It is just a different actor playing exactly the same character. Indeed, there are occasional back-references. Of course, the huge plot hole is that Bond should now be in his 90s. But the premise of the story is simply not that Daniel Craig was given the Bond name and 007 number when Piers Brosnan retired - it is that Craig IS Brosnan etc.
    Yes, Bond is like Bart Simpson. He never grows up.
    Like Bond fans.

    And Simpsons fans.

    And Dr Who fans.
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    This may seem a strange thing to say, but I suspect the average murderer is not an especially bad person. I think that in the wrong circumstances, many of us could do the same.

    But, there are people who are truly wicked, soulless really, and a real danger to the public, and not necessarily murderers, either.
    A friend of mine nearly murdered someone. He’s a big chap, 6 foot 5, genial, clever, engineering type. Likes cricket.

    But he has this terrible temper which, about every 15 years, descends into lunatic rage. I once saw him pick up a deeply irritating stupid person by the neck and ram him against a wall. Because of my friend’s size and strength he nearly strangled the fool to death. It’s only coz others pulled him away that he didn’t commit murder. Instead the victim meekly slipped away, my friend had a few days of mortified shame, and life went on

    Otherwise he’s a fine upstanding member of society. Father, hard worker, pays his taxes, etc
    What did this guy do to irritate him, out of interest?
    Its a long time back but IIRC he cheated at cricket, and was then loutishly smug about it. No joke

    My friend is a stickler for fair play. So decided to throttle him
    Your mate sounds like a tool.
    He’s really not. He’s just got a vicious temper which he generally restrains well - but for about 2 minutes every 20 years the red mist truly descends.

    There haven’t been any eruptions of late. Perhaps he’s done Anger Management
    Prisons are full of morons like him.
  • Foxy said:

    eek said:

    I see SKS said he thinks the next James Bond should be a woman

    Dont tell Rosie Duffield

    Isn't that just the easiest laziest answer to a completely irrelevant question for a politician to be asked.
    My answer would be more circumspect: "I'm excited to find out who the next Bond will be, it would be fun to see what they could do with a woman in the role, but I'm sure there are many male actors who would also be great choices."
    The trouble with these sorts of questions is that they get column inches and people end up saying "hasn't Keir Starmer got bigger things to worry about than the next Bond?!?" And, of course, he has - but he was just answering the question given.

    Incidentally, I absolutely don't think there should be a female Bond.

    Firstly, film makers should be creating new, strong female leads - not some sort of novelty hand-me-down of a six decade old franchise.

    Secondly, James Bond is not Dr Who - it is not, in the story, a pseudonym, and he does not regenerate. It is just a different actor playing exactly the same character. Indeed, there are occasional back-references. Of course, the huge plot hole is that Bond should now be in his 90s. But the premise of the story is simply not that Daniel Craig was given the Bond name and 007 number when Piers Brosnan retired - it is that Craig IS Brosnan etc.
    Yes, Bond is like Bart Simpson. He never grows up.
    Like Bond fans.

    And Simpsons fans.

    And Dr Who fans.
    Are there still Simpson fans?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,347

    eek said:

    I see SKS said he thinks the next James Bond should be a woman

    Dont tell Rosie Duffield

    Isn't that just the easiest laziest answer to a completely irrelevant question for a politician to be asked.
    James Bond should not be a woman. If you want an equivalent, exciting, powerful, dramatic female agent, write one and make that film.
    Been done - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2406566/

    She is an alcoholic (vodka for choice), investigates by proving the bad guys until they try and kill her. Stays in posh hotels and is a fashion snob, unlike those around her. Wins brutal fights by the skin of her teeth. Oh, and is a womaniser.
    Atomic Blonde is a crap film. Rubbish.
    The plot is junk - but there have been far worse Bond films. Die Another Day?

    The characters are fun, and the evocation of a certain period of history is brilliantly done.
    Nah. It's really disappointing. Over-stylised tosh – which is a shame as the concept was excellent. The tragedy is that there's a real risk that moviemakers will avoid trying it again.

    (P.S. Yes, it's arguably marginally better than Die Another Day – but that is the epitome of damning by faint praise)
    Die Another Day was uniformly shit in every respect.

    Atomic Blonde just needed a better overall plot. The setting, music, fight scenes & characters all were good-to-excellent.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 9,143
    edited October 2021
    O/T great article by @Cyclefree . One sentence stood out which I believe to be very important:

    "The police seem to think that because theirs is a critical public function everything they do is in the public interest and therefore it is impermissible to attack them"

    The interesting thing is that this doesn't just apply to the police, but to other sections of society also. The most notable example is the medical profession. Put a medic on the TV, even a rep from those bastions of self interest, the BMA, and you can be pretty sure that there will be deference shown to them by journos and no challenge to what they say, whatsoever. The other morning there was a GP on BBC Breakfast who moaned and moaned about how stressful the job was. No one pointed out that similarly remunerated professions also have people burning out, or that they have the most secure jobs in the world, huge eye watering pension schemes and they are the best paid GPs in Europe bar Switzerland.

    Some people in some chosen walks of life still seem to get an easy ride from the media. There needs to more balance and less deference.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,647
    Having had a chat to a number of people this morning - many I wouldn’t say were ever anti police or anti establishment - I think the met (and wider police force) have got a serious issue that they don’t seem to be acknowledging
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 5,565

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    I see SKS said he thinks the next James Bond should be a woman

    Dont tell Rosie Duffield

    Isn't that just the easiest laziest answer to a completely irrelevant question for a politician to be asked.
    My answer would be more circumspect: "I'm excited to find out who the next Bond will be, it would be fun to see what they could do with a woman in the role, but I'm sure there are many male actors who would also be great choices."
    The trouble with these sorts of questions is that they get column inches and people end up saying "hasn't Keir Starmer got bigger things to worry about than the next Bond?!?" And, of course, he has - but he was just answering the question given.

    Incidentally, I absolutely don't think there should be a female Bond.

    Firstly, film makers should be creating new, strong female leads - not some sort of novelty hand-me-down of a six decade old franchise.

    Secondly, James Bond is not Dr Who - it is not, in the story, a pseudonym, and he does not regenerate. It is just a different actor playing exactly the same character. Indeed, there are occasional back-references. Of course, the huge plot hole is that Bond should now be in his 90s. But the premise of the story is simply not that Daniel Craig was given the Bond name and 007 number when Piers Brosnan retired - it is that Craig IS Brosnan etc.
    Yes, Bond is like Bart Simpson. He never grows up.
    Like Bond fans.

    And Simpsons fans.

    And Dr Who fans.
    Are there still Simpson fans?
    Nah - moved on to Family Guy now...
  • dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Yes I basically agree. Imagine a boy who joins a south London gang at 15 then stabs a rival to death in a fracas, age 20. If he gets out 17 years later I’d say that’s probably fair. He did a terrible thing and has lost the best years of his life as a result. Now he gets a chance to be a decent citizen and repay

    Any murder accompanied by, say, rape, should be 25 years minimum. Likewise terrorism

    I remember reading a study of jail sentences. There is a length of sentence after which almost no one ever reoffends, I believe it is about 15 years (but I need to check). In essence, if you spend that long in prison it changes you - breaks you, perhaps. You never want to go back inside. Psychos are different of course, they cannot be helped

    That’s why I was surprised by the guy who did 18 years then murdered again. Incredibly unusual

    Most psychopaths go through life without offending. You probably know one or two.
    Quite a lot of high flying academics are psychopaths. Can be uttering charming when they want, are driven, work single mindedly on stuff, but ultimately its all about them. I know several from my career.
    The finance industry says hi.
    And private schools. Staff riddled with psychopaths.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,191
    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20
  • Mr. Foremain, even now, I have no idea what the difference is meant to be.

    One suggestion I liked was that psychopaths are capable of empathy and genuinely caring for people, but can switch that off at will if they want to, whereas sociopaths just cannot do it at all.

    It is a fine line. This article attempts to explain: https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-a-sociopath-380184
  • Foxy said:

    eek said:

    I see SKS said he thinks the next James Bond should be a woman

    Dont tell Rosie Duffield

    Isn't that just the easiest laziest answer to a completely irrelevant question for a politician to be asked.
    My answer would be more circumspect: "I'm excited to find out who the next Bond will be, it would be fun to see what they could do with a woman in the role, but I'm sure there are many male actors who would also be great choices."
    The trouble with these sorts of questions is that they get column inches and people end up saying "hasn't Keir Starmer got bigger things to worry about than the next Bond?!?" And, of course, he has - but he was just answering the question given.

    Incidentally, I absolutely don't think there should be a female Bond.

    Firstly, film makers should be creating new, strong female leads - not some sort of novelty hand-me-down of a six decade old franchise.

    Secondly, James Bond is not Dr Who - it is not, in the story, a pseudonym, and he does not regenerate. It is just a different actor playing exactly the same character. Indeed, there are occasional back-references. Of course, the huge plot hole is that Bond should now be in his 90s. But the premise of the story is simply not that Daniel Craig was given the Bond name and 007 number when Piers Brosnan retired - it is that Craig IS Brosnan etc.
    Yes, Bond is like Bart Simpson. He never grows up.
    Like Bond fans.

    And Simpsons fans.

    And Dr Who fans.
    Are there still Simpson fans?
    Goodness me, yes!
  • dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Yes I basically agree. Imagine a boy who joins a south London gang at 15 then stabs a rival to death in a fracas, age 20. If he gets out 17 years later I’d say that’s probably fair. He did a terrible thing and has lost the best years of his life as a result. Now he gets a chance to be a decent citizen and repay

    Any murder accompanied by, say, rape, should be 25 years minimum. Likewise terrorism

    I remember reading a study of jail sentences. There is a length of sentence after which almost no one ever reoffends, I believe it is about 15 years (but I need to check). In essence, if you spend that long in prison it changes you - breaks you, perhaps. You never want to go back inside. Psychos are different of course, they cannot be helped

    That’s why I was surprised by the guy who did 18 years then murdered again. Incredibly unusual

    Most psychopaths go through life without offending. You probably know one or two.
    Quite a lot of high flying academics are psychopaths. Can be uttering charming when they want, are driven, work single mindedly on stuff, but ultimately its all about them. I know several from my career.
    The finance industry says hi.
    And private schools. Staff riddled with psychopaths.
    As someone who went to a bog standard comp but sent my kids to independent schools I would say my anecdotal experience was completely the reverse.
  • Foxy said:

    eek said:

    I see SKS said he thinks the next James Bond should be a woman

    Dont tell Rosie Duffield

    Isn't that just the easiest laziest answer to a completely irrelevant question for a politician to be asked.
    My answer would be more circumspect: "I'm excited to find out who the next Bond will be, it would be fun to see what they could do with a woman in the role, but I'm sure there are many male actors who would also be great choices."
    The trouble with these sorts of questions is that they get column inches and people end up saying "hasn't Keir Starmer got bigger things to worry about than the next Bond?!?" And, of course, he has - but he was just answering the question given.

    Incidentally, I absolutely don't think there should be a female Bond.

    Firstly, film makers should be creating new, strong female leads - not some sort of novelty hand-me-down of a six decade old franchise.

    Secondly, James Bond is not Dr Who - it is not, in the story, a pseudonym, and he does not regenerate. It is just a different actor playing exactly the same character. Indeed, there are occasional back-references. Of course, the huge plot hole is that Bond should now be in his 90s. But the premise of the story is simply not that Daniel Craig was given the Bond name and 007 number when Piers Brosnan retired - it is that Craig IS Brosnan etc.
    Yes, Bond is like Bart Simpson. He never grows up.
    Like Bond fans.

    And Simpsons fans.

    And Dr Who fans.
    Are there still Simpson fans?
    Goodness me, yes!
    Not you, surely?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 5,565

    Having had a chat to a number of people this morning - many I wouldn’t say were ever anti police or anti establishment - I think the met (and wider police force) have got a serious issue that they don’t seem to be acknowledging

    Its the cameras isn't it? Up till say 10 years ago it was rare that Police miss-behaviour would be caught on film, and most people tended to believe the police, rather than the complainant. I mean, the police wouldn't lie would they. This is counter to the evidence that in fact they would, often because they believed it was the right thing to do (we think we have the culprit, but can't prove it, lets fit him up...) Now so often it is getting recorded and then put out there on the internet for us all to see, and the scales are falling from the eyes. The police have a massive problem now. They do routinely deal with the scum of society, but sometimes they end up treating everyone as if they are scum.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,281
    kinabalu said:

    rkrkrk said:

    kinabalu said:
    Disagree. It's weak stuff from him and much less thoughtful than what he normally produces.
    What are the promises that Starmer has broken? He doesn't really say.

    All it amounts to is complaints that the left have been frozen out of certain positions and some desperately dull internal rule changes. Then he restates criticisms of whether Starmer is electable.
    He's talking about the promise to retain the radicalism of the Corbyn era. I do recall him stressing that during the leadership campaign.
    Do you think he's dropped that? Perhaps I've missed some downgrading of radicalism.
    I saw he was planning to tax private schools.
  • dixiedean said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Yes I basically agree. Imagine a boy who joins a south London gang at 15 then stabs a rival to death in a fracas, age 20. If he gets out 17 years later I’d say that’s probably fair. He did a terrible thing and has lost the best years of his life as a result. Now he gets a chance to be a decent citizen and repay

    Any murder accompanied by, say, rape, should be 25 years minimum. Likewise terrorism

    I remember reading a study of jail sentences. There is a length of sentence after which almost no one ever reoffends, I believe it is about 15 years (but I need to check). In essence, if you spend that long in prison it changes you - breaks you, perhaps. You never want to go back inside. Psychos are different of course, they cannot be helped

    That’s why I was surprised by the guy who did 18 years then murdered again. Incredibly unusual

    Most psychopaths go through life without offending. You probably know one or two.
    Quite a lot of high flying academics are psychopaths. Can be uttering charming when they want, are driven, work single mindedly on stuff, but ultimately its all about them. I know several from my career.
    The finance industry says hi.
    And private schools. Staff riddled with psychopaths.
    You can omit “private” from that sentence…
  • Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    One of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. I think life can be a harsher sentence.
    Especially in Dartmoor. What a depressing place.

    It’s due to shut forever in 2023. God knows what they will do with it. The architecture is kind of imperious, in a 200-year-old, Satanic way. And it’s listed. So they can’t knock it down. A hotel?!

    Specialist hotel where you experience prison life for a day and night... Could be awesome, or just shit.

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    One of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. I think life can be a harsher sentence.
    Especially in Dartmoor. What a depressing place.

    It’s due to shut forever in 2023. God knows what they will do with it. The architecture is kind of imperious, in a 200-year-old, Satanic way. And it’s listed. So they can’t knock it down. A hotel?!

    Specialist hotel where you experience prison life for a day and night... Could be awesome, or just shit.
    Already done. Oxford Prison. Can't remotely imagine staying there.
    Although the architecture is recognisably that of a prison, it's very much NOT done out like a "prison experience" hotel. It's very much a luxury hotel - and bang in the middle of Oxford, which is a rather different prospect from Dartmoor Prison, which is famously remote.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 46,480
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    Fine - don't kill people then.
    No argument from me. As I said even before the sentence, Couzens deserves the whole life tariff

    Indeed I think this is a rare occasion of complete PB agreement
    Is there anyone in Britain who doesn't agree with the judge on whole life?
  • HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
  • The propensity for people who choose Human Resources as a profession to exhibit antisocial personality disorders is interesting.
  • HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    If we have power cuts it won't just be the pigs that will be in blankets for xmas!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,191
    edited October 2021

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,658
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    Fine - don't kill people then.
    No argument from me. As I said even before the sentence, Couzens deserves the whole life tariff

    Indeed I think this is a rare occasion of complete PB agreement
    Agreed. I am resolutely opposed to the death penalty, but I have no problem with whole-life tariffs for the very worst cases, in fact I’d say they’re not imposed often enough. (BTW here in the US there is no parole at federal level, so if you get a life sentence for a federal offense you are automatically on a life-means-life sentence, with maybe eventual Presidential clemency as your only hope of getting out.)

    There is, of course, the problem of life prisoners who carry on being violent once inside, like Charles Bronson (who took the actor’s name). I think for those cases the option of absolute solitary confinement has to exist as a further deterrent.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
    Or just buy imported meat.

    Not the end of the world either way. Meat is meat.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,078
    Very eloquent thread header @Cyclefree. Thank-you.

    Today's comments by Cressida Dick seem to strike entirely the wrong note, though tbf, I have only read the report, not heard her full speech.

    "People stopped by lone officer could ‘wave down a bus’"

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/01/police-must-win-back-public-confidence-after-sarah-everard-case-says-minister
This discussion has been closed.