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What Now? – politicalbetting.com
What Now? – politicalbetting.com
If not already done, the sentencing remarks of Lord Justice Fulford should be read by every MP, Cabinet Minister, police chief, Police & Crime Commissioner and anyone else involved in our criminal justice system. Paragraphs 19 and 23 set out eloquently – in words which should be taken particularly to heart by the Home Secretary and the Justice Secretary – the importance of law and order and what happens when trust in the police is undermined. As the Judge put it – “the authority of the police is to a truly significant extent dependant on the public’s consent and the power of officers to detain, arrest and otherwise control important aspects of our lives is only effective because of the critical trust that we repose in the constabulary, that they will act lawfully and in the best interests of society.” That trust has been severely undermined by Couzens’ crimes. Read Sarah Everard mother’s statement if you need proof: “In the evenings, at the time she was abducted, I let out a silent scream: Don’t get in the car, Sarah. Don’t believe him. Run!” It will not be just her who thinks the police cannot be believed. The damage done to policing is incalculable.
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An interesting video from an ex-lorry driver on why he won't return to the business:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa1LfTziVBo
TL;DR: he loves driving lorries, but it's just not a very pleasant job.
Thanks, Ms Free, for an interesting threader.
There's so much to be said about this case, and the way it reflects on the (lack of) professionalism within the police. It's not a case of lack of funding, or of bobbies on the beat: it's a case of a culture within the force that appears to be totally borken.
And that starts at the top.
I also think the idea of bringing in senior officers who are not police is a good one. The greasy pole appears to well and truly in place within the police forces, and fresh blood - and fresh eyes - at the top could be positive.
The public also need to accept that policing is a difficult job, one many of us would not want to do. Imagine having to tell someone that their child has died. Or deal with the scene of a tragic accident with multiple fatalities. Imagine having to deal with people you would not want to associate with in normal circumstances - people who range from wrong 'uns to the malignly evil. Imagine going to work knowing there is a chance you might be spat at, hit, stabbed, or even, in extreme cases, killed on duty.
But police also have considerable power over us all, and that means they should always fulfil their roles professionally and fairly, according to the law.
Mostly that happens. But 'mostly' is not good enough.
Time for England to follow Denmark, Finland, France, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, the Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Scotland, Spain, Sweden, the United States and many other countries and establish an English national police force.
They could call them the Antediluvian Imperial Bobbys, to keep JRM happy. Bung a plc on the end and the Tory snouts will love the new trough.
One thing which should certainly be dome is a mandatory re-vetting of officers who move from one force to another, something not currently done.
That would have caught Couzens and I think the one who killed Ian Tomlinson as well.
It would also have blocked Dick from being Commissioner.
It’s extraordinary that that's required of schoolteachers but not police officers.
Otherwise @Cyclefree has covered most of the points with her usual eloquence. I am wondering if the only way out of this mess would be to stand down the Met and start again. But no politician would have the courage to do that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Winsor
A close friend of mine is a police officer and he has zero respect for Winsor on the grounds that he has no idea what it's like to be a cop.
I think an outside perspective is always helpful, but imposing non-police management on the rank and file could lead to outright revolt.
We could revive this process and make @Dura_Ace Commissioner* on the basis that everyone in the Met would at least get roasted - ah, hang on, speeding offences. As you were.
*Yes, I know he was in the navy.
The number of Chief Constable / Deputy Chief Constables / Assistant Chief Constables that have been sacked or suspended is quite staggering.
The troubled Cleveland force, for instance, has had seven Chief Constables in ten years...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-57929724
The current guy's predecessor is facing a few problems over the Heath affair. But after resigning, he went on to be an advisor to another force's PCC. Revolving door, anyone?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-58071728
Wasn’t there controversy about that because he’d been accused of using excessive force before? Or am I conflating that with the case in Lancashire where a woman was repeatedly punched in the face?
Your every action is scrutinised. If you slip up, it's front page news. You have to jump through 1,000 hoops to put even the most obviously guilty man behind bars.
If I was a policeman, I'd probably feel the world was against me.
The problem is that this kind of situation results in people putting loyalty to the group ahead of loyalty to the truth, or to what is morally right. If you see a colleague being attacked in the press, you rush to defend him. The union stands up to defend him. And senior officers follow suit.
Because it's a difficult job, and people on the outside can't understand.
Unfortunately, when you put your critical faculties away, and elevate loyalty to the group above all, well, that's when terrible shit happens. Otherwise good people cover up terrible atrocities, because they don't want to do *their* group down.
It's exactly the same kind of mentality that results in so many moderate Muslims defending terrorists. Terrorist who - it should be noted - would feel no compunction about murdering said moderate.
@Cyclefree is right. Those who exercise power over their fellow citizens need to be held to higher standards. Yes, we need to be aware that people are in shitty situations, and will sometimes react poorly. But we cannot have a situation where policemen attempt to fit up members of the cabinet, or who perjure themselves to bring prosecutions against innocent people (whose lives seem far more scarred than those of the police), or who look out for a colleague jokingly called "rapist".
Doesn't mean he should have been in the police, of course.
However, there are many other advantages to national police forces, not least the crucial cultural issue Cyclefree raises. Start with a blank slate in cultural terms, and keep the old shits out of the new organisation.
But seriously, just because things are worse elsewhere, and could be worse here, is not a reason not to demand better here.
(… and pedantically, it is currently an SNP/Green state.)
Excellent piece.
Have a good day.
Reality: https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1441395730631954434?s=19
It's quite a CV.
I hope that horror show cases like this can make people Stop and Think. One starter for 10 is the response to lunatics who start attacking women or worse. The focus should not be on women, how they can protect themselves, not walk there, don't wear that, don't be "provocative".
The focus should be on men and by men. Don't ban men from the streets as one group suggested yesterday, the opposite. Reclaim the streets. Most men are not bad, we despise the bad ones as much. So if someone is prowling, we should be out there. Don't give safe space to these predators, leave them nowhere to hide. We can make negative, derogatory and superior attitudes by men towards women ("incel" FFS like its their right to have a woman sleep with them) as socially unacceptable as drink driving.
I can only assume she has too many other battles going on, and isn't confident she'd find any obviously better candidate.
The police ask for volunteers sometimes for searches. Do the same when there have been assaults. Walk the streets with the police. A community in solidarity, not in fear.
Possible typo? Seems to be a superfluous "as" in this sentence.
My concern with dumping Dick is that I can imagine a charismatic cleaner-upper being appointed and that charisma dissipating as you go down the layers and out from the centre of town. And then we're back at self-regulation by individual coppers, which is clearly not working.
If I think back to the 60s and 70s , bar the obvious loons, we had respect for our politicians and principles in charge of bodies such as the police.
Changing the deckchairs will not help. Trust and respect has largely gone and isn't coming back anytime soon.
I feel sorry for grass roots cops who continually arrest people yet the justice system does everything possible to avoid locking them up.
Perhaps that's because drugs are more freely available in prison than outside....
So if you were to be batshit crazy and operating from the premise that he'd won a second victory, then by 'the deep state' denying him his second term and inaugurating Biden, he'd now be entitled to seek a third 'victory'.
Having local police forces responding to local needs is a central tenet of English liberalism, I find the idea of a single state-run police force rather troubling. Who polices Police Scotland? And if we had a single police force, it would be basically the Met writ large, and, er, that's what we seem to be saying is corrupt and incompetent.
Scotland of course is moving towards being a one-party state, so a single national police force makes sense.
Was the fact that she was a woman and gay more important to our right on politicians? I mean, for god's sake. The decision to renew her contract not even a month ago with this pending, is one of the more inexplicable political decisions in recent times. Dick is not the only one who should be considering her position.
Try a new head of the Met but if that doesn't work then breaking up the Met might be a better solution.
And, in fairness, the police investigation in this case seems to have been exemplary with particular officers named for high praise in the sentencing remarks as @Carnyx pointed out yesterday. Rather than this the report on the Morgan case which named her in terms as a major source of the obstruction should have resulted in dismissal.
This, combined with the culture she's allowed to be in the Met, combined with the cover-up the Morgan Inquiry found, combined with de Menzies, combined with Midland . . . different story.
For me though this does feel like a bit of a blind alley. This case was so exceptional because it was that crime by a serving police officer - hence the exceptional sentence. If only the crime was an exception - it isn't. It isn't the police culture we need to change, but our own.
Until women are equal to men we will keep this horrible problem. Yes its a small minority of men, but they are fuelled by a society that amplifies their "rights" and "needs" as overriding those of others. We managed to make drink driving completely unacceptable when it used to be the norm. We can make "incel" and "phwoar" and"just a bit of fun" completely unacceptable if we try.
This won't 100% eradicate these kind of crimes because a very small number of people are unsaveable in this life. But we can shine light into the darkness.
The fact is that the US has national police. England doesn’t.
That's dangerous, because if we ultimately succeed in making her resign, an impression may be created that the problem is solved. It's like addressing tax avoidance by saying "let's crack down on Amazon". I'd rather that Dick was told that her continuation in the job depends on implementing the kind of systemic actions that Cyclefree sets out.
Aren't the "incel" crowd unsociable, unacceptable loners and weirdos already to be frank? What more specifically do you want to do?
Funnily enough, PB is jam-packed full of experts on Scotland. However, it soon becomes apparent that most of them haven’t completed Chapter One of their copies of ‘Scotland for Dummies’.
And why on earth should a Scot not be “pro-Scottish”? It would be very odd if I was not.
Your entire post just reeks of psychological projection.
English law enforcement is broken. It needs fixing.
Pass, thanks.
Police Scotland has been happily applying that system for a while.
How can it be that a serving police officer uses his warrant card to kidnap, rape and murder a woman and no-one in a position of authority is at all responsible?
What are leadership positions for?
How about all of England’s nearest neighbours - Scotland, Ireland, Iceland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, the Netherlands, France? Why do they all choose national police? Are they all wrong and England right? Maybe. But please show your workings.
One could have more confidence in police leadership if this were a one off, as Ms Cyclefree points out. However this case is just another in a recent series of major police errors; for example, the South Yorkshire force has not exactly covered itself with glory recently. And anyone whom watched the recent TV programme on the Cardiff Three would be concerned.
Jocks = bad
One day England will move on. Nobody is holding their breath.
If the English wanted someone bigger to call in when their scandals got too big they shouldn’t have left the EU.
Yes, so we're back into the institutional culture problem. As the police (all forces) draw more of certain groups of people in than other groups there is a risk of being unbalanced. All the more reason why the leadership from the very top needs to be robust.
For me though this does feel like a bit of a blind alley. This case was so exceptional because it was that crime by a serving police officer - hence the exceptional sentence. If only the crime was an exception - it isn't. It isn't the police culture we need to change, but our own.
Until women are equal to men we will keep this horrible problem. Yes its a small minority of men, but they are fuelled by a society that amplifies their "rights" and "needs" as overriding those of others. We managed to make drink driving completely unacceptable when it used to be the norm. We can make "incel" and "phwoar" and"just a bit of fun" completely unacceptable if we try.
This won't 100% eradicate these kind of crimes because a very small number of people are unsaveable in this life. But we can shine light into the darkness.
Incels, though, are viewed in a similar light to paedophiles. They are derided and despised, and mix only with their own kind.
But, I think you're on to something. I commented the other day about websites that are dedicated to (mocked up) pictures of young, attractive, women, being burned at the stake or tortured in a variety of imaginitive ways. That can't be healthy.
But for the rest, yes. It results in a Police force even more institutionalised and even more out of touch. The bigger it gets, it becomes even more ossified and even more resistant to change. Even harder to root out problems. Corrupt a nationwide police force (via politics or a malign culture) and the entire nation's policing is now corrupted.
Breaking up the Met which is a bit too big for its boots, would be better than making it nationwide.
Small is better, it makes it easier to root out problems and if they set in then they only set in for a small institution rather than nationwide.
An truly independent investigation body would be anti-police because it wouldn't understand the "culture".
Calling in an English police force for an investigation would be anti-Scottish, and anti-police.
Therefore they *must* investigate themselves.
It's a heavy burden. But Police Scotland nobly rise to the challenge.
Lessons Will Be Learned.
My problem with PB Jock-experts is that most of them haven’t got the faintest scoobie about Scottish society, culture, economics, history, electoral behaviour or public affairs.
Are you suggesting that the USA is a better model for policing than the UK?
On this I agree with PT. When it comes to policing smaller, localised and decentralised is better.
That was also what made him so dangerous
Its funny I believe in Scottish independece because I believe small is better. Every argument you use is in favour of bigger is better and unionism.
Every single country on earth has a problem with police corruption and law breaking. The question is what you do about it.
You should ask an Irish person what they think about corruption in the Guards. I haven't met a single one who is happy about it.
The American system, like their health care, appears to be an attempt to create the worst overall result possible.
Malcolm Offord was rejected by the voters during the Holyrood election.
Despite this he has been handed an unelected peerage in the house of lords as a U.K. gov minister Under the secretary of State for Scotland office.
Amazing what £150,000 donation to the Cons party gets you!
Bloody hard, time consuming and expensive. But it is doable.
If you really are an Anglophile, you might want to consider your words more carefully in future ...
From the header "Over half of Met officers who have committed sexual misconduct have kept their jobs." That is the kind of thing that can be quickly and easily fixed.
https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/labour-changed-as-starmers-wife-is-jewish-says-partner-of-woman-kicked-out/
Doesn't look like they will be allowed back, correctly
Are they saying none of the other Chief Constables across whole of UK are fit to be promoted to the "top" job? That's usually what happens.
If so, why are so many mediocre people becoming Chiefs?
(a) the murder of two or more persons, where each murder involves any of the following— (i)a substantial degree of premeditation or planning, (ii)the abduction of the victim, or (iii)sexual or sadistic conduct...
But as you say, he was caught after one (or, at least, one that we know of). I think it would perfectly reasonable for a judge to come to the conclusion that he would more than likely have done it again had he not been caught.
For those who don't know - under Blair, the investigation into various green and similar groups were used to claim (by the Police) that theses were "threats" they were dealing with. Meanwhile the head-chopping-fanclub was left strictly alone....
This ended up with the comedy of trying to portray Fathers For Justice as a terrorist group, while at a certain university, the police NFA's a group holding bomb making lessons.....
Politically useful (dealing with all those nasty threats), they could be left to their own devices.
With no-one caring if we already have one, or how it works, but knowing that Australia is sunny with beaches.
Firstly, this is not over yet, so we must wait and see.
Secondly there is no agreed culture in our society about vicarious liability from the top for the faults of subordinates. Crichel Down was a long time ago, as was Lord Carrington's resignation.
ATM the leadership position of "I am the right person to sort this mess" seems as strong as "I was at the top so I must resign".
It is possible for a police officer to abuse that position egregiously and no-one else know anything relevant in advance.
There are lots of comments about this case and who knew what and who should have acted thus, but if there is fault from others they are entitled to have that proved. The Mail is not that forum, nor is PB.
A final question: How long would any Home Secretary last if they were vicariously liable for everything that happened on their watch? More or less than 10 minutes?