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What Now? – politicalbetting.com

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,322

    The propensity for people who choose Human Resources as a profession to exhibit antisocial personality disorders is interesting.

    Simple really - do you think of Humans as interchangeable Resources? Or do you think of people as.... people?
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,658

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    One of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. I think life can be a harsher sentence.
    Especially in Dartmoor. What a depressing place.

    It’s due to shut forever in 2023. God knows what they will do with it. The architecture is kind of imperious, in a 200-year-old, Satanic way. And it’s listed. So they can’t knock it down. A hotel?!

    Specialist hotel where you experience prison life for a day and night... Could be awesome, or just shit.

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    One of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. I think life can be a harsher sentence.
    Especially in Dartmoor. What a depressing place.

    It’s due to shut forever in 2023. God knows what they will do with it. The architecture is kind of imperious, in a 200-year-old, Satanic way. And it’s listed. So they can’t knock it down. A hotel?!

    Specialist hotel where you experience prison life for a day and night... Could be awesome, or just shit.
    Already done. Oxford Prison. Can't remotely imagine staying there.
    Although the architecture is recognisably that of a prison, it's very much NOT done out like a "prison experience" hotel. It's very much a luxury hotel - and bang in the middle of Oxford, which is a rather different prospect from Dartmoor Prison, which is famously remote.
    IIRC in one of the Baltic states you can stay a night in a former prison for a “KGB experience” and get treated a little like dissidents were.
  • eek said:

    I see SKS said he thinks the next James Bond should be a woman

    Dont tell Rosie Duffield

    Isn't that just the easiest laziest answer to a completely irrelevant question for a politician to be asked.
    My answer would be more circumspect: "I'm excited to find out who the next Bond will be, it would be fun to see what they could do with a woman in the role, but I'm sure there are many male actors who would also be great choices."
    The trouble with these sorts of questions is that they get column inches and people end up saying "hasn't Keir Starmer got bigger things to worry about than the next Bond?!?" And, of course, he has - but he was just answering the question given.

    Incidentally, I absolutely don't think there should be a female Bond.

    Firstly, film makers should be creating new, strong female leads - not some sort of novelty hand-me-down of a six decade old franchise.

    Secondly, James Bond is not Dr Who - it is not, in the story, a pseudonym, and he does not regenerate. It is just a different actor playing exactly the same character. Indeed, there are occasional back-references. Of course, the huge plot hole is that Bond should now be in his 90s. But the premise of the story is simply not that Daniel Craig was given the Bond name and 007 number when Piers Brosnan retired - it is that Craig IS Brosnan etc.
    In my view Bond is actually a new 007 each time - i.e. the world of Brosnan is totally separate from the world of Craig. It doesn't work if you try to have them as a new agent stepping into being 007 as they all have the same back story. I have no issue with this - its the same as batman movies.
    They don't make much of the continuity as it is a problematic plot hole in a 60 year franchise.

    But, for example, Bond is briefly married, and very soon after widowed, in George Lazenby's only Bond outing (On Her Majesty's Secret Service). That formative experience does get back-referenced in a couple of later films with different actors as Bond.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 27,125
    As I was going to St. Ives,
    I met two tankers with two drivers
    Each tanker had four axles,
    Each axle had two wheels,
    Each wheel had eight nuts
    Tankers, axles, wheels, and nuts,
    How much fuel is in St. Ives?

    (On my way to a run, I passed two white unmarked tankers. I think they're part of the strategic reserve kept up in Fenstanton (*). So at least two are on the move...)

    (*) As any rail enthusiast knows, strategic reserves should really be kept in Box Tunnel...
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    Fine - don't kill people then.
    No argument from me. As I said even before the sentence, Couzens deserves the whole life tariff

    Indeed I think this is a rare occasion of complete PB agreement
    Is there anyone in Britain who doesn't agree with the judge on whole life?
    Will be disappointed if Spiked doesn’t have a hot take.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 607

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
    Or just buy imported meat.

    Not the end of the world either way. Meat is meat.
    British producers thank you for your support ! Next you’ll be spinning the devastating losses incurred by British fisheries into a positive .
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,143

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
    Or just buy imported meat.

    Not the end of the world either way. Meat is meat.
    Would be more expensive and has to come through customs checks too
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,883

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    I see SKS said he thinks the next James Bond should be a woman

    Dont tell Rosie Duffield

    Isn't that just the easiest laziest answer to a completely irrelevant question for a politician to be asked.
    My answer would be more circumspect: "I'm excited to find out who the next Bond will be, it would be fun to see what they could do with a woman in the role, but I'm sure there are many male actors who would also be great choices."
    The trouble with these sorts of questions is that they get column inches and people end up saying "hasn't Keir Starmer got bigger things to worry about than the next Bond?!?" And, of course, he has - but he was just answering the question given.

    Incidentally, I absolutely don't think there should be a female Bond.

    Firstly, film makers should be creating new, strong female leads - not some sort of novelty hand-me-down of a six decade old franchise.

    Secondly, James Bond is not Dr Who - it is not, in the story, a pseudonym, and he does not regenerate. It is just a different actor playing exactly the same character. Indeed, there are occasional back-references. Of course, the huge plot hole is that Bond should now be in his 90s. But the premise of the story is simply not that Daniel Craig was given the Bond name and 007 number when Piers Brosnan retired - it is that Craig IS Brosnan etc.
    Yes, Bond is like Bart Simpson. He never grows up.
    Like Bond fans.

    And Simpsons fans.

    And Dr Who fans.
    Are there still Simpson fans?
    Goodness me, yes!
    Not you, surely?
    Futurama knocks the Simpsons into a cocked hat. Some weak minor characters but Zoidberg is genius.
  • nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
    Or just buy imported meat.

    Not the end of the world either way. Meat is meat.
    British producers thank you for your support ! Next you’ll be spinning the devastating losses incurred by British fisheries into a positive .
    I will say the same for fisheries as I say for farming, driver's salaries or anything else ... Let the market sort it out.

    If our fishermen have a competitive advantage then great, exercise it, if not then c'est la vie.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,322

    As I was going to St. Ives,
    I met two tankers with two drivers
    Each tanker had four axles,
    Each axle had two wheels,
    Each wheel had eight nuts
    Tankers, axles, wheels, and nuts,
    How much fuel is in St. Ives?

    (On my way to a run, I passed two white unmarked tankers. I think they're part of the strategic reserve kept up in Fenstanton (*). So at least two are on the move...)

    (*) As any rail enthusiast knows, strategic reserves should really be kept in Box Tunnel...

    As any PB pedant knows, strategic reserves should be kept in a tunnel with an entrance next to Box Tunnel.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 33,001
    Leon said:

    Taz said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    This may seem a strange thing to say, but I suspect the average murderer is not an especially bad person. I think that in the wrong circumstances, many of us could do the same.

    But, there are people who are truly wicked, soulless really, and a real danger to the public, and not necessarily murderers, either.
    A friend of mine nearly murdered someone. He’s a big chap, 6 foot 5, genial, clever, engineering type. Likes cricket.

    But he has this terrible temper which, about every 15 years, descends into lunatic rage. I once saw him pick up a deeply irritating stupid person by the neck and ram him against a wall. Because of my friend’s size and strength he nearly strangled the fool to death. It’s only coz others pulled him away that he didn’t commit murder. Instead the victim meekly slipped away, my friend had a few days of mortified shame, and life went on

    Otherwise he’s a fine upstanding member of society. Father, hard worker, pays his taxes, etc
    What did this guy do to irritate him, out of interest?
    Its a long time back but IIRC he cheated at cricket, and was then loutishly smug about it. No joke

    My friend is a stickler for fair play. So decided to throttle him
    Your mate sounds like a tool.
    He’s really not. He’s just got a vicious temper which he generally restrains well - but for about 2 minutes every 20 years the red mist truly descends.

    There haven’t been any eruptions of late. Perhaps he’s done Anger Management
    Is he married?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    Fine - don't kill people then.
    No argument from me. As I said even before the sentence, Couzens deserves the whole life tariff

    Indeed I think this is a rare occasion of complete PB agreement
    Is there anyone in Britain who doesn't agree with the judge on whole life?
    Apart from Couzens maybe (and excluding those who think he should be executed, I guess) No.

    Thank f*ck he wasn't told to go off and read Austen and Dickens, eh?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 607

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
    Or just buy imported meat.

    Not the end of the world either way. Meat is meat.
    British producers thank you for your support ! Next you’ll be spinning the devastating losses incurred by British fisheries into a positive .
    I will say the same for fisheries as I say for farming, driver's salaries or anything else ... Let the market sort it out.

    If our fishermen have a competitive advantage then great, exercise it, if not then c'est la vie.
    The fisheries have been screwed because of Bozos deal . The NTBs in that deal is what has caused all the issues . You seem happy to see many sectors go to the wall which is rather unpatriotic given I thought voting Brexit was a badge of patriotism and all Remainers like myself were allegedly not patriotic enough !
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    Fine - don't kill people then.
    No argument from me. As I said even before the sentence, Couzens deserves the whole life tariff

    Indeed I think this is a rare occasion of complete PB agreement
    Is there anyone in Britain who doesn't agree with the judge on whole life?
    Will be disappointed if Spiked doesn’t have a hot take.
    Brendan will make it ultimately the fault of Remoaners and the Liberal Elite, but how he'll do it I don't yet know. (And he's probably still working it out himself.)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,143
    edited October 2021
    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
    Or just buy imported meat.

    Not the end of the world either way. Meat is meat.
    British producers thank you for your support ! Next you’ll be spinning the devastating losses incurred by British fisheries into a positive .
    I will say the same for fisheries as I say for farming, driver's salaries or anything else ... Let the market sort it out.

    If our fishermen have a competitive advantage then great, exercise it, if not then c'est la vie.
    The fisheries have been screwed because of Bozos deal . The NTBs in that deal is what has caused all the issues . You seem happy to see many sectors go to the wall which is rather unpatriotic given I thought voting Brexit was a badge of patriotism and all Remainers like myself were allegedly not patriotic enough !
    Mind you the fishing industry is also out of the CFP with greater control over their own waters too.

    Though I accept staying in the EEA could have achieved that while still leaving the EU and CFP, see also Norway and Iceland
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076
    edited October 2021
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    One of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. I think life can be a harsher sentence.
    Especially in Dartmoor. What a depressing place.

    It’s due to shut forever in 2023. God knows what they will do with it. The architecture is kind of imperious, in a 200-year-old, Satanic way. And it’s listed. So they can’t knock it down. A hotel?!

    Specialist hotel where you experience prison life for a day and night... Could be awesome, or just shit.

    Leon said:

    Selebian said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    One of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. I think life can be a harsher sentence.
    Especially in Dartmoor. What a depressing place.

    It’s due to shut forever in 2023. God knows what they will do with it. The architecture is kind of imperious, in a 200-year-old, Satanic way. And it’s listed. So they can’t knock it down. A hotel?!

    Specialist hotel where you experience prison life for a day and night... Could be awesome, or just shit.
    Already done. Oxford Prison. Can't remotely imagine staying there.
    Supposed to be really nice....
    Hmm ... rather missing the point surely.

    https://www.malmaison.com/locations/oxford/rooms-suites/
    We stayed there in 2019 and it was very disappointing. Crap rooms, crap service. I get that they are trying to riff off the prison theme but that was going too far. It's a shame because other Malmaisons we have stayed in (Leith for instance) have been great.

    Coincidentally we also had a bad experience in a converted prison hotel in Leiden. The rooms were basically the old cells and very small; much smaller than they looked in the photos of course.

    We're going straight from now on - no more prison (hotels) for us.
  • Very eloquent thread header @Cyclefree. Thank-you.

    Today's comments by Cressida Dick seem to strike entirely the wrong note, though tbf, I have only read the report, not heard her full speech.

    "People stopped by lone officer could ‘wave down a bus’"

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/01/police-must-win-back-public-confidence-after-sarah-everard-case-says-minister

    Is a bus actually going to stop if you wave it down?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,628
    rkrkrk said:

    kinabalu said:

    rkrkrk said:

    kinabalu said:
    Disagree. It's weak stuff from him and much less thoughtful than what he normally produces.
    What are the promises that Starmer has broken? He doesn't really say.

    All it amounts to is complaints that the left have been frozen out of certain positions and some desperately dull internal rule changes. Then he restates criticisms of whether Starmer is electable.
    He's talking about the promise to retain the radicalism of the Corbyn era. I do recall him stressing that during the leadership campaign.
    Do you think he's dropped that? Perhaps I've missed some downgrading of radicalism.
    I saw he was planning to tax private schools.
    Yes, that was heartening. I actually think he's on the right track but I get where Jones is coming from. There's so much deceit from Johnson and Starmer should maintain the difference on this. If the platform does end up very centre ground he would have misled the membership imo.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076

    Very eloquent thread header @Cyclefree. Thank-you.

    Today's comments by Cressida Dick seem to strike entirely the wrong note, though tbf, I have only read the report, not heard her full speech.

    "People stopped by lone officer could ‘wave down a bus’"

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/01/police-must-win-back-public-confidence-after-sarah-everard-case-says-minister

    Is a bus actually going to stop if you wave it down?
    Of course not. And even if they did the corrupt officer flashes his card and says "Police, move along please".

    It was a very stupid remark by CD.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,322

    Very eloquent thread header @Cyclefree. Thank-you.

    Today's comments by Cressida Dick seem to strike entirely the wrong note, though tbf, I have only read the report, not heard her full speech.

    "People stopped by lone officer could ‘wave down a bus’"

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/01/police-must-win-back-public-confidence-after-sarah-everard-case-says-minister

    Is a bus actually going to stop if you wave it down?
    Of course not. And even if they did the corrupt officer flashes his card and says "Police, move along please".

    It was a very stupid remark by CD.
    Surely, all you need is to find someone with a Lens?
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 1,711
    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
    Or just buy imported meat.

    Not the end of the world either way. Meat is meat.
    British producers thank you for your support ! Next you’ll be spinning the devastating losses incurred by British fisheries into a positive .
    A bit late there I think.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076
    edited October 2021
    Would anyone on here know to tell a faked warrant card from a real one? I've often wondered I would do.

    If I were a criminal I'd create me a simple copy and flash it if ever I got stopped by a member of the public for something.

    Why not put a QR code on them and allow those with phones to check the officer is bona fide? I appreciate Couzens would have passed that test but he's hardly likely to continue with the offence once the check by the victim has been recorded centrally.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 3,493
    edited October 2021

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    Fine - don't kill people then.
    No argument from me. As I said even before the sentence, Couzens deserves the whole life tariff

    Indeed I think this is a rare occasion of complete PB agreement
    Is there anyone in Britain who doesn't agree with the judge on whole life?
    Will be disappointed if Spiked doesn’t have a hot take.
    Brendan will make it ultimately the fault of Remoaners and the Liberal Elite, but how he'll do it I don't yet know. (And he's probably still working it out himself.)
    Won't they (Spiked and Brendan) blame it on Covid restrictions? If it hadn't been for lockdown rules, Couzens wouldn't have had an excuse to stop and 'arrest' Sarah.

    On reflection, I don't think even Spiked would dare do that.
  • nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
    Or just buy imported meat.

    Not the end of the world either way. Meat is meat.
    British producers thank you for your support ! Next you’ll be spinning the devastating losses incurred by British fisheries into a positive .
    I will say the same for fisheries as I say for farming, driver's salaries or anything else ... Let the market sort it out.

    If our fishermen have a competitive advantage then great, exercise it, if not then c'est la vie.
    The fisheries have been screwed because of Bozos deal . The NTBs in that deal is what has caused all the issues . You seem happy to see many sectors go to the wall which is rather unpatriotic given I thought voting Brexit was a badge of patriotism and all Remainers like myself were allegedly not patriotic enough !
    I never said Remainers weren't patriotic enough, I was a Remainer until a few weeks before the referendum. It was a close call for me.

    I don't believe in fake patriotism, and I don't care if stuff goes to the wall. I couldn't care less if the meat I'm eating has a Union Jack, Tricolour, the Stars and Stripes or the Southern Cross on it. It doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to me.

    If all else is equal, then I'll pick British, because why not. But if all else isn't equal then I don't care.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    Fine - don't kill people then.
    No argument from me. As I said even before the sentence, Couzens deserves the whole life tariff

    Indeed I think this is a rare occasion of complete PB agreement
    Is there anyone in Britain who doesn't agree with the judge on whole life?
    Will be disappointed if Spiked doesn’t have a hot take.
    Brendan will make it ultimately the fault of Remoaners and the Liberal Elite, but how he'll do it I don't yet know. (And he's probably still working it out himself.)
    It's an interesting exercise.
    Worrying about woke and dancing at Pride have distracted the police from examining the actual mote in their own eye?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 33,001
    kinabalu said:

    rkrkrk said:

    kinabalu said:

    rkrkrk said:

    kinabalu said:
    Disagree. It's weak stuff from him and much less thoughtful than what he normally produces.
    What are the promises that Starmer has broken? He doesn't really say.

    All it amounts to is complaints that the left have been frozen out of certain positions and some desperately dull internal rule changes. Then he restates criticisms of whether Starmer is electable.
    He's talking about the promise to retain the radicalism of the Corbyn era. I do recall him stressing that during the leadership campaign.
    Do you think he's dropped that? Perhaps I've missed some downgrading of radicalism.
    I saw he was planning to tax private schools.
    Yes, that was heartening. I actually think he's on the right track but I get where Jones is coming from. There's so much deceit from Johnson and Starmer should maintain the difference on this. If the platform does end up very centre ground he would have misled the membership imo.
    Whether he promised to nationalise John Deere or not is trivia only of interest to Leftist dweebs such as yourself.

    The most important point of Jones's article was that over the course of the past 18 months he has not landed a punch on the govt. Indeed, he has voted with them on every single occasion over that time.

    That is what is wrong with Starmer.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076

    Very eloquent thread header @Cyclefree. Thank-you.

    Today's comments by Cressida Dick seem to strike entirely the wrong note, though tbf, I have only read the report, not heard her full speech.

    "People stopped by lone officer could ‘wave down a bus’"

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/01/police-must-win-back-public-confidence-after-sarah-everard-case-says-minister

    Is a bus actually going to stop if you wave it down?
    Of course not. And even if they did the corrupt officer flashes his card and says "Police, move along please".

    It was a very stupid remark by CD.
    Surely, all you need is to find someone with a Lens?
    ... and persuade them to photograph or film you, presumably in direct disobedience to a 'police officer'.

    But you've made me think. If I ever get stopped I'll take a photo of the warrant card. It'll be on my iCloud almost immediately so traceable. Preferably WhatsApp it to a friend too; undeletable then. Timestamped too, of course.

    Of course, I am not a young attractive woman, so not really at risk from this sort of thing.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,143
    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
    Or just buy imported meat.

    Not the end of the world either way. Meat is meat.
    British producers thank you for your support ! Next you’ll be spinning the devastating losses incurred by British fisheries into a positive .
    I will say the same for fisheries as I say for farming, driver's salaries or anything else ... Let the market sort it out.

    If our fishermen have a competitive advantage then great, exercise it, if not then c'est la vie.
    The fisheries have been screwed because of Bozos deal . The NTBs in that deal is what has caused all the issues . You seem happy to see many sectors go to the wall which is rather unpatriotic given I thought voting Brexit was a badge of patriotism and all Remainers like myself were allegedly not patriotic enough !
    Philip Thompson is a libertarian free trader who I believe wants global free trade with no tariffs and customs barriers anywhere and no state subsidies for farming or industry.

    Though I don't think he has gone so far as to support free movement globally and accepts Boris' points system for migrants
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 69,325
    edited October 2021

    Very eloquent thread header @Cyclefree. Thank-you.

    Today's comments by Cressida Dick seem to strike entirely the wrong note, though tbf, I have only read the report, not heard her full speech.

    "People stopped by lone officer could ‘wave down a bus’"

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/01/police-must-win-back-public-confidence-after-sarah-everard-case-says-minister

    Is a bus actually going to stop if you wave it down?
    Of course not. And even if they did the corrupt officer flashes his card and says "Police, move along please".

    It was a very stupid remark by CD.
    Surely, all you need is to find someone with a Lens?
    I can imagine every little squirt getting arrested is going to try it on for a while yet too. I mean they do anyway, but higher chance passers by jump in on the side of the criminals
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 1,711
    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
    Or just buy imported meat.

    Not the end of the world either way. Meat is meat.
    British producers thank you for your support ! Next you’ll be spinning the devastating losses incurred by British fisheries into a positive .
    I will say the same for fisheries as I say for farming, driver's salaries or anything else ... Let the market sort it out.

    If our fishermen have a competitive advantage then great, exercise it, if not then c'est la vie.
    The fisheries have been screwed because of Bozos deal . The NTBs in that deal is what has caused all the issues . You seem happy to see many sectors go to the wall which is rather unpatriotic given I thought voting Brexit was a badge of patriotism and all Remainers like myself were allegedly not patriotic enough !
    Mind you the fishing industry is also out of the CFP with greater control over their own waters too.

    Though I accept staying in the EEA could have achieved that while still leaving the EU and CFP, see also Norway and Iceland
    Greater control to be unable to sell the fish you mean..
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076
    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
    Or just buy imported meat.

    Not the end of the world either way. Meat is meat.
    British producers thank you for your support ! Next you’ll be spinning the devastating losses incurred by British fisheries into a positive .
    I will say the same for fisheries as I say for farming, driver's salaries or anything else ... Let the market sort it out.

    If our fishermen have a competitive advantage then great, exercise it, if not then c'est la vie.
    The fisheries have been screwed because of Bozos deal . The NTBs in that deal is what has caused all the issues . You seem happy to see many sectors go to the wall which is rather unpatriotic given I thought voting Brexit was a badge of patriotism and all Remainers like myself were allegedly not patriotic enough !
    Philip Thompson is a libertarian free trader who I believe wants global free trade with no tariffs and customs barriers anywhere and no state subsidies for farming or industry.

    Though I don't think he has gone so far as to support free movement globally and accepts Boris' points system for migrants
    ... yes a strange ommission to his liberatarian ideals.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,322
    Cyclefree said:

    Have not had time to peruse the thread as have just got home with one well cat.

    But the reason I think Ms Dick needs to go is that I simply don't think she is the right person to lead through the culture change that is needed.

    You have to feel the need for it in your bones not simply intellectually, not just because it is put in your list of HR objectives. And you have to be utterly determined to do it with a passion and focus. Which you will need because there will be so many people not that keen, willing you to fail, there will be the permafrost layer of management who will need their heads beaten to get them to change, there will be so many opportunities for inertia or to do the bare minimum or simply get diverted into other things. I just think she has not got this.

    And there is another reason too. Someone different will signal the need for change in a way that someone who has been there a long time simply cannot. They will bring a new perspective. And they will give an opening to those in more junior roles who have felt frustrated or blocked or too scared to speak up and make changes. They will give them an opportunity to act. And it gives a new broom a chance to tell the blockers to get with the programme or get out.

    I have seen this, believe me, up close. In all cases, new people were needed because the old-timers were, whether they realised it or not, often part of the problem, even if they weren't actively malevolent.

    And you need outsiders involved. They see things the police won't or can't see. A lot is made of how no-one understands police work other than the police. This is to miss the point. This is about human behaviour leading to bad outcomes: greed, stupidity, cowardice, hubris, complacency etc. These are found in all sorts of organizations. Everyone makes these mistakes at some point in their lives and work. The police need to understand that the sorts of mistakes they are making have been made by others elsewhere.

    Why? To realise that they are not special. But also to realise that the perspective the outsider brings them can also help them because others have been through this and learnt how to avoid and mitigate them and survived and got better.

    Anyway, just want to get that off my chest.

    Really, if anyone in the Home Office or the Met is reading this, get in touch. You need help. Obviously, my fee for banging my head against a brick wall in SW1 will be enormous. But have you any better ideas?

    No no no.

    Promise them, that for 7 figures an hour you can deliver absolutely no change. And take years to do it.

    All you need are absolute powers. And a warrant card.

    Yes, I think the "SMT" are that stupid.
  • kinabalu said:

    rkrkrk said:

    kinabalu said:

    rkrkrk said:

    kinabalu said:
    Disagree. It's weak stuff from him and much less thoughtful than what he normally produces.
    What are the promises that Starmer has broken? He doesn't really say.

    All it amounts to is complaints that the left have been frozen out of certain positions and some desperately dull internal rule changes. Then he restates criticisms of whether Starmer is electable.
    He's talking about the promise to retain the radicalism of the Corbyn era. I do recall him stressing that during the leadership campaign.
    Do you think he's dropped that? Perhaps I've missed some downgrading of radicalism.
    I saw he was planning to tax private schools.
    Yes, that was heartening. I actually think he's on the right track but I get where Jones is coming from. There's so much deceit from Johnson and Starmer should maintain the difference on this. If the platform does end up very centre ground he would have misled the membership imo.
    What choice did he have. The membership had been radicalised in the Corbyn cult era. To rescue the party and drag it back to electability he first had to get elected and that meant securing the vote of cultists.

    So he told them what they wanted to hear. If that is a "lie" then it is a good lie. Anyway, with something of an exodus of entryists and the most hardcore of the cult he doesn't need to worry that much as the people who feel he lied have left or are leaving the party.
  • HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
    Or just buy imported meat.

    Not the end of the world either way. Meat is meat.
    British producers thank you for your support ! Next you’ll be spinning the devastating losses incurred by British fisheries into a positive .
    I will say the same for fisheries as I say for farming, driver's salaries or anything else ... Let the market sort it out.

    If our fishermen have a competitive advantage then great, exercise it, if not then c'est la vie.
    The fisheries have been screwed because of Bozos deal . The NTBs in that deal is what has caused all the issues . You seem happy to see many sectors go to the wall which is rather unpatriotic given I thought voting Brexit was a badge of patriotism and all Remainers like myself were allegedly not patriotic enough !
    Philip Thompson is a libertarian free trader who I believe wants global free trade with no tariffs and customs barriers anywhere and no state subsidies for farming or industry.

    Though I don't think he has gone so far as to support free movement globally and accepts Boris' points system for migrants
    ... yes a strange ommission to his liberatarian ideals.
    Why's it strange?

    I've said I don't care if people are free to come here so long as we eliminate the green belt and people are free to build too. Since we don't have free construction, we can't justify free movement either. The two need to go hand-in-hand.

    I back free construction though. I back the elimination of the green belt and the elimination of planning permission (though I'd keep restrictions exclusively for AONBs etc).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,197
    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    I see SKS said he thinks the next James Bond should be a woman

    Dont tell Rosie Duffield

    Isn't that just the easiest laziest answer to a completely irrelevant question for a politician to be asked.
    My answer would be more circumspect: "I'm excited to find out who the next Bond will be, it would be fun to see what they could do with a woman in the role, but I'm sure there are many male actors who would also be great choices."
    The trouble with these sorts of questions is that they get column inches and people end up saying "hasn't Keir Starmer got bigger things to worry about than the next Bond?!?" And, of course, he has - but he was just answering the question given.

    Incidentally, I absolutely don't think there should be a female Bond.

    Firstly, film makers should be creating new, strong female leads - not some sort of novelty hand-me-down of a six decade old franchise.

    Secondly, James Bond is not Dr Who - it is not, in the story, a pseudonym, and he does not regenerate. It is just a different actor playing exactly the same character. Indeed, there are occasional back-references. Of course, the huge plot hole is that Bond should now be in his 90s. But the premise of the story is simply not that Daniel Craig was given the Bond name and 007 number when Piers Brosnan retired - it is that Craig IS Brosnan etc.
    Yes, Bond is like Bart Simpson. He never grows up.
    The whole Bond 'debate' just seems really weird to me, as people conflate the positive ideas of equality and roles for women etc with 'it is time for a female Bond' as if the two matters are connected.

    It feels like some are trying a bit hard with it, as often happens with so called culture war stuff, in either direction.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 10,216
    72 hours before Couzens abducted Everard, the police received an indecent exposure exposure linked to a car registered to Couzens.

    Also, Nick Timothy of all people has an interesting thread.

    https://twitter.com/nj_timothy/status/1443879501545590785?s=21

    It is not just Wayne Couzens, the Met has been in crisis for some time. The Daniel Morgan inquiry said it was "institutionally corrupt". London is plagued by knife crime. There's the Bibaa Henry and Nicole Smallman case, and many others. What the Home Office should do:</>
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,197

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
    Or just buy imported meat.

    Not the end of the world either way. Meat is meat.
    British producers thank you for your support ! Next you’ll be spinning the devastating losses incurred by British fisheries into a positive .
    I will say the same for fisheries as I say for farming, driver's salaries or anything else ... Let the market sort it out.

    If our fishermen have a competitive advantage then great, exercise it, if not then c'est la vie.
    The fisheries have been screwed because of Bozos deal . The NTBs in that deal is what has caused all the issues . You seem happy to see many sectors go to the wall which is rather unpatriotic given I thought voting Brexit was a badge of patriotism and all Remainers like myself were allegedly not patriotic enough !
    Philip Thompson is a libertarian free trader who I believe wants global free trade with no tariffs and customs barriers anywhere and no state subsidies for farming or industry.

    Though I don't think he has gone so far as to support free movement globally and accepts Boris' points system for migrants
    ... yes a strange ommission to his liberatarian ideals.
    If you know people with entirely consistent political views then you should be aware they are automatons in disguise.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,143
    edited October 2021

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
    Or just buy imported meat.

    Not the end of the world either way. Meat is meat.
    British producers thank you for your support ! Next you’ll be spinning the devastating losses incurred by British fisheries into a positive .
    I will say the same for fisheries as I say for farming, driver's salaries or anything else ... Let the market sort it out.

    If our fishermen have a competitive advantage then great, exercise it, if not then c'est la vie.
    The fisheries have been screwed because of Bozos deal . The NTBs in that deal is what has caused all the issues . You seem happy to see many sectors go to the wall which is rather unpatriotic given I thought voting Brexit was a badge of patriotism and all Remainers like myself were allegedly not patriotic enough !
    Philip Thompson is a libertarian free trader who I believe wants global free trade with no tariffs and customs barriers anywhere and no state subsidies for farming or industry.

    Though I don't think he has gone so far as to support free movement globally and accepts Boris' points system for migrants
    ... yes a strange ommission to his liberatarian ideals.
    Why's it strange?

    I've said I don't care if people are free to come here so long as we eliminate the green belt and people are free to build too. Since we don't have free construction, we can't justify free movement either. The two need to go hand-in-hand.

    I back free construction though. I back the elimination of the green belt and the elimination of planning permission (though I'd keep restrictions exclusively for AONBs etc).
    So people are free to come here without limit if we concrete all over the green belt and most of the English countryside to build all the extra homes for them. A deeply unpopular proposal (and most people don't live within easy reach of AONB and National Parks, especially in London and the Home Counties)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,197
    Cyclefree said:

    Have not had time to peruse the thread as have just got home with one well cat.

    But the reason I think Ms Dick needs to go is that I simply don't think she is the right person to lead through the culture change that is needed.

    You have to feel the need for it in your bones not simply intellectually, not just because it is put in your list of HR objectives. And you have to be utterly determined to do it with a passion and focus. Which you will need because there will be so many people not that keen, willing you to fail, there will be the permafrost layer of management who will need their heads beaten to get them to change, there will be so many opportunities for inertia or to do the bare minimum or simply get diverted into other things. I just think she has not got this.

    And there is another reason too. Someone different will signal the need for change in a way that someone who has been there a long time simply cannot. They will bring a new perspective. And they will give an opening to those in more junior roles who have felt frustrated or blocked or too scared to speak up and make changes. They will give them an opportunity to act. And it gives a new broom a chance to tell the blockers to get with the programme or get out.

    I have seen this, believe me, up close. In all cases, new people were needed because the old-timers were, whether they realised it or not, often part of the problem, even if they weren't actively malevolent.

    And you need outsiders involved. They see things the police won't or can't see. A lot is made of how no-one understands police work other than the police. This is to miss the point. This is about human behaviour leading to bad outcomes: greed, stupidity, cowardice, hubris, complacency etc. These are found in all sorts of organizations. Everyone makes these mistakes at some point in their lives and work. The police need to understand that the sorts of mistakes they are making have been made by others elsewhere.

    Why? To realise that they are not special. But also to realise that the perspective the outsider brings them can also help them because others have been through this and learnt how to avoid and mitigate them and survived and got better.

    Anyway, just want to get that off my chest.

    Really, if anyone in the Home Office or the Met is reading this, get in touch. You need help. Obviously, my fee for banging my head against a brick wall in SW1 will be enormous. But have you any better ideas?

    Bringing in new people to shake things up, as a general position, can be a massive annoyance as you often only need to shake things up like that when things are bad not that it us automatically good.

    But in an areas like this? Very necessary.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076
    edited October 2021

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
    Or just buy imported meat.

    Not the end of the world either way. Meat is meat.
    British producers thank you for your support ! Next you’ll be spinning the devastating losses incurred by British fisheries into a positive .
    I will say the same for fisheries as I say for farming, driver's salaries or anything else ... Let the market sort it out.

    If our fishermen have a competitive advantage then great, exercise it, if not then c'est la vie.
    The fisheries have been screwed because of Bozos deal . The NTBs in that deal is what has caused all the issues . You seem happy to see many sectors go to the wall which is rather unpatriotic given I thought voting Brexit was a badge of patriotism and all Remainers like myself were allegedly not patriotic enough !
    Philip Thompson is a libertarian free trader who I believe wants global free trade with no tariffs and customs barriers anywhere and no state subsidies for farming or industry.

    Though I don't think he has gone so far as to support free movement globally and accepts Boris' points system for migrants
    ... yes a strange ommission to his liberatarian ideals.
    Why's it strange?

    I've said I don't care if people are free to come here so long as we eliminate the green belt and people are free to build too. Since we don't have free construction, we can't justify free movement either. The two need to go hand-in-hand.

    I back free construction though. I back the elimination of the green belt and the elimination of planning permission (though I'd keep restrictions exclusively for AONBs etc).
    Britain would be a very different place with unrestricted development (even exlucing the AONBs).

    More chance of my well-developed plans for a 1% pa tax on individual wealth above £1m, and I suspect that has less chance than a snowball surviving Hell.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    Fine - don't kill people then.
    No argument from me. As I said even before the sentence, Couzens deserves the whole life tariff

    Indeed I think this is a rare occasion of complete PB agreement
    Is there anyone in Britain who doesn't agree with the judge on whole life?
    Will be disappointed if Spiked doesn’t have a hot take.
    Brendan will make it ultimately the fault of Remoaners and the Liberal Elite, but how he'll do it I don't yet know. (And he's probably still working it out himself.)
    Won't they (Spiked and Brendan) blame it on Covid restrictions? If it hadn't been for lockdown rules, Couzens wouldn't have had an excuse to stop and 'arrest' Sarah.

    On reflection, I don't think even Spiked would dare do that.
    I believe Kirsty Allsop went down that line in a tweet then deleted it.
    I find as I get older my attitude to once loathed tv celebs softens, otoh if I never see Kirsty & Phil or Gordon Ramsey on the telly again that will still be too soon.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,777

    Very eloquent thread header @Cyclefree. Thank-you.

    Today's comments by Cressida Dick seem to strike entirely the wrong note, though tbf, I have only read the report, not heard her full speech.

    "People stopped by lone officer could ‘wave down a bus’"

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/01/police-must-win-back-public-confidence-after-sarah-everard-case-says-minister

    CHannelling Marie Antoinette?

    "Prenent-elles l'autobus."
  • Very eloquent thread header @Cyclefree. Thank-you.

    Today's comments by Cressida Dick seem to strike entirely the wrong note, though tbf, I have only read the report, not heard her full speech.

    "People stopped by lone officer could ‘wave down a bus’"

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/oct/01/police-must-win-back-public-confidence-after-sarah-everard-case-says-minister

    Is a bus actually going to stop if you wave it down?
    Of course not. And even if they did the corrupt officer flashes his card and says "Police, move along please".

    It was a very stupid remark by CD.
    Surely, all you need is to find someone with a Lens?
    ... and persuade them to photograph or film you, presumably in direct disobedience to a 'police officer'.

    But you've made me think. If I ever get stopped I'll take a photo of the warrant card. It'll be on my iCloud almost immediately so traceable. Preferably WhatsApp it to a friend too; undeletable then. Timestamped too, of course.

    Of course, I am not a young attractive woman, so not really at risk from this sort of thing.
    That is a good idea.
  • kinabalu said:

    rkrkrk said:

    kinabalu said:

    rkrkrk said:

    kinabalu said:
    Disagree. It's weak stuff from him and much less thoughtful than what he normally produces.
    What are the promises that Starmer has broken? He doesn't really say.

    All it amounts to is complaints that the left have been frozen out of certain positions and some desperately dull internal rule changes. Then he restates criticisms of whether Starmer is electable.
    He's talking about the promise to retain the radicalism of the Corbyn era. I do recall him stressing that during the leadership campaign.
    Do you think he's dropped that? Perhaps I've missed some downgrading of radicalism.
    I saw he was planning to tax private schools.
    Yes, that was heartening. I actually think he's on the right track but I get where Jones is coming from. There's so much deceit from Johnson and Starmer should maintain the difference on this. If the platform does end up very centre ground he would have misled the membership imo.
    What choice did he have. The membership had been radicalised in the Corbyn cult era. To rescue the party and drag it back to electability he first had to get elected and that meant securing the vote of cultists.

    So he told them what they wanted to hear. If that is a "lie" then it is a good lie. Anyway, with something of an exodus of entryists and the most hardcore of the cult he doesn't need to worry that much as the people who feel he lied have left or are leaving the party.
    Yes and Boris needed to get elected so he lied about oven ready deals and no border in the Irish Sea and foreign aid and triple locks and new coppers and new hospitals and wallpaper and buses but those were good lies.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 12,449
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    I see SKS said he thinks the next James Bond should be a woman

    Dont tell Rosie Duffield

    Isn't that just the easiest laziest answer to a completely irrelevant question for a politician to be asked.
    My answer would be more circumspect: "I'm excited to find out who the next Bond will be, it would be fun to see what they could do with a woman in the role, but I'm sure there are many male actors who would also be great choices."
    The trouble with these sorts of questions is that they get column inches and people end up saying "hasn't Keir Starmer got bigger things to worry about than the next Bond?!?" And, of course, he has - but he was just answering the question given.

    Incidentally, I absolutely don't think there should be a female Bond.

    Firstly, film makers should be creating new, strong female leads - not some sort of novelty hand-me-down of a six decade old franchise.

    Secondly, James Bond is not Dr Who - it is not, in the story, a pseudonym, and he does not regenerate. It is just a different actor playing exactly the same character. Indeed, there are occasional back-references. Of course, the huge plot hole is that Bond should now be in his 90s. But the premise of the story is simply not that Daniel Craig was given the Bond name and 007 number when Piers Brosnan retired - it is that Craig IS Brosnan etc.
    Yes, Bond is like Bart Simpson. He never grows up.
    The whole Bond 'debate' just seems really weird to me, as people conflate the positive ideas of equality and roles for women etc with 'it is time for a female Bond' as if the two matters are connected.

    It feels like some are trying a bit hard with it, as often happens with so called culture war stuff, in either direction.
    You don't say?

    FWIW my view is that there absolutely should not be a female Bond, because Bond is a male character. But I have no problem with people thinking or arguing otherwise.

    As with much of this Culture War shite, it's limited to the Culture Warriors on both sides who have far more in common with each other than the bulk of the population, who consider them morons.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,777
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
    Or just buy imported meat.

    Not the end of the world either way. Meat is meat.
    British producers thank you for your support ! Next you’ll be spinning the devastating losses incurred by British fisheries into a positive .
    I will say the same for fisheries as I say for farming, driver's salaries or anything else ... Let the market sort it out.

    If our fishermen have a competitive advantage then great, exercise it, if not then c'est la vie.
    The fisheries have been screwed because of Bozos deal . The NTBs in that deal is what has caused all the issues . You seem happy to see many sectors go to the wall which is rather unpatriotic given I thought voting Brexit was a badge of patriotism and all Remainers like myself were allegedly not patriotic enough !
    Philip Thompson is a libertarian free trader who I believe wants global free trade with no tariffs and customs barriers anywhere and no state subsidies for farming or industry.

    Though I don't think he has gone so far as to support free movement globally and accepts Boris' points system for migrants
    ... yes a strange ommission to his liberatarian ideals.
    Why's it strange?

    I've said I don't care if people are free to come here so long as we eliminate the green belt and people are free to build too. Since we don't have free construction, we can't justify free movement either. The two need to go hand-in-hand.

    I back free construction though. I back the elimination of the green belt and the elimination of planning permission (though I'd keep restrictions exclusively for AONBs etc).
    So people are free to come here without limit if we concrete all over the green belt and most of the English countryside to build all the extra homes for them. A deeply unpopular proposal (and most people don't live within easy reach of AONB and National Parks, especially in London and the Home Counties
    On the contrary, an excellent if modest proposal entirely consistent with the spirit of true Toryism. You sound just like a LD.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
    Or just buy imported meat.

    Not the end of the world either way. Meat is meat.
    British producers thank you for your support ! Next you’ll be spinning the devastating losses incurred by British fisheries into a positive .
    I will say the same for fisheries as I say for farming, driver's salaries or anything else ... Let the market sort it out.

    If our fishermen have a competitive advantage then great, exercise it, if not then c'est la vie.
    The fisheries have been screwed because of Bozos deal . The NTBs in that deal is what has caused all the issues . You seem happy to see many sectors go to the wall which is rather unpatriotic given I thought voting Brexit was a badge of patriotism and all Remainers like myself were allegedly not patriotic enough !
    Philip Thompson is a libertarian free trader who I believe wants global free trade with no tariffs and customs barriers anywhere and no state subsidies for farming or industry.

    Though I don't think he has gone so far as to support free movement globally and accepts Boris' points system for migrants
    ... yes a strange ommission to his liberatarian ideals.
    If you know people with entirely consistent political views then you should be aware they are automatons in disguise.
    My political views are 100% consistent with... my views*

    (*Today. Things could change tomorrow.)
  • Foxy said:

    eek said:

    I see SKS said he thinks the next James Bond should be a woman

    Dont tell Rosie Duffield

    Isn't that just the easiest laziest answer to a completely irrelevant question for a politician to be asked.
    My answer would be more circumspect: "I'm excited to find out who the next Bond will be, it would be fun to see what they could do with a woman in the role, but I'm sure there are many male actors who would also be great choices."
    The trouble with these sorts of questions is that they get column inches and people end up saying "hasn't Keir Starmer got bigger things to worry about than the next Bond?!?" And, of course, he has - but he was just answering the question given.

    Incidentally, I absolutely don't think there should be a female Bond.

    Firstly, film makers should be creating new, strong female leads - not some sort of novelty hand-me-down of a six decade old franchise.

    Secondly, James Bond is not Dr Who - it is not, in the story, a pseudonym, and he does not regenerate. It is just a different actor playing exactly the same character. Indeed, there are occasional back-references. Of course, the huge plot hole is that Bond should now be in his 90s. But the premise of the story is simply not that Daniel Craig was given the Bond name and 007 number when Piers Brosnan retired - it is that Craig IS Brosnan etc.
    Yes, Bond is like Bart Simpson. He never grows up.
    Like Bond fans.

    And Simpsons fans.

    And Dr Who fans.
    Are there still Simpson fans?
    Goodness me, yes!
    Not you, surely?
    Fraid so. Our youngest loves it. Even the wife chortles occasionally, and she dislikes childish content.

    Mainly repeats, but some of the newer episodes are wonderful. A few total duds, but hey, even the greats have their dips.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited October 2021

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
    Or just buy imported meat.

    Not the end of the world either way. Meat is meat.
    British producers thank you for your support ! Next you’ll be spinning the devastating losses incurred by British fisheries into a positive .
    I will say the same for fisheries as I say for farming, driver's salaries or anything else ... Let the market sort it out.

    If our fishermen have a competitive advantage then great, exercise it, if not then c'est la vie.
    The fisheries have been screwed because of Bozos deal . The NTBs in that deal is what has caused all the issues . You seem happy to see many sectors go to the wall which is rather unpatriotic given I thought voting Brexit was a badge of patriotism and all Remainers like myself were allegedly not patriotic enough !
    Philip Thompson is a libertarian free trader who I believe wants global free trade with no tariffs and customs barriers anywhere and no state subsidies for farming or industry.

    Though I don't think he has gone so far as to support free movement globally and accepts Boris' points system for migrants
    ... yes a strange ommission to his liberatarian ideals.
    Why's it strange?

    I've said I don't care if people are free to come here so long as we eliminate the green belt and people are free to build too. Since we don't have free construction, we can't justify free movement either. The two need to go hand-in-hand.

    I back free construction though. I back the elimination of the green belt and the elimination of planning permission (though I'd keep restrictions exclusively for AONBs etc).
    Britain would be a very different place with unrestricted development (even exlucing the AONBs).

    More chance of my well-developed plans for a 1% pa tax on individual wealth above £1m, and I suspect that has less chance than a snowball surviving Hell.
    Indeed it would be, but unless or until we allow unrestricted development then unrestricted migration has been a failure.

    Plus we've never had unrestricted migration, we've had for the past few years draconianly strict migration (if coming from out of Europe) combined with completely uncontrolled migration (if from within Europe). I think its fairer to be consistent - controlled migration but fair. An Austrian and an Australian, a Frenchman and a Fijian, an Italian and an Indian should all be measured equitably and not discriminated against by race or nationality.

    Do you think that's illiberal? Do you really think its strange to partner free movement with free construction as needing to go hand-in-hand to be workable?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
    Or just buy imported meat.

    Not the end of the world either way. Meat is meat.
    British producers thank you for your support ! Next you’ll be spinning the devastating losses incurred by British fisheries into a positive .
    I will say the same for fisheries as I say for farming, driver's salaries or anything else ... Let the market sort it out.

    If our fishermen have a competitive advantage then great, exercise it, if not then c'est la vie.
    The fisheries have been screwed because of Bozos deal . The NTBs in that deal is what has caused all the issues . You seem happy to see many sectors go to the wall which is rather unpatriotic given I thought voting Brexit was a badge of patriotism and all Remainers like myself were allegedly not patriotic enough !
    Philip Thompson is a libertarian free trader who I believe wants global free trade with no tariffs and customs barriers anywhere and no state subsidies for farming or industry.

    Though I don't think he has gone so far as to support free movement globally and accepts Boris' points system for migrants
    ... yes a strange ommission to his liberatarian ideals.
    Why's it strange?

    I've said I don't care if people are free to come here so long as we eliminate the green belt and people are free to build too. Since we don't have free construction, we can't justify free movement either. The two need to go hand-in-hand.

    I back free construction though. I back the elimination of the green belt and the elimination of planning permission (though I'd keep restrictions exclusively for AONBs etc).
    So people are free to come here without limit if we concrete all over the green belt and most of the English countryside to build all the extra homes for them. A deeply unpopular proposal (and most people don't live within easy reach of AONB and National Parks, especially in London and the Home Counties
    On the contrary, an excellent if modest proposal entirely consistent with the spirit of true Toryism. You sound just like a LD.
    If only most green belt wasn't in Tory voters' back yards, eh?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,818

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think 16.5 years is inappropriate for an "ordinary" murder. To give one example, my wife knows a man who will shortly be released after 18 years. He stabbed a man to death, after being worked up to it, over the course of several weeks, by his father. He did something terrible, but he's not irredeemable, IMHO. He was 19 when he did it, so he's lost a fair chunk of his life.

    OTOH, sex killers, torture killers, contract killers should be inside for decades IMHO.

    I have a number of patients in Gartree Prison, which is entirely lifers.

    Generally the prison officers like it there as lifers tend to behave, as major misbehaviour means that they stay inside. Someone on say a 3 year tariff can get away with much more, short of being convicted again, once they have done their time they are out.

    Most of the lifers I meet are rather pathetic individuals, and don't ooze threat. If you sat next to them at the bus stop you wouldn't know what they have done. Mind you, when I see them, they are chained to an escort, with a second one to hand.
    In prison parlance, people given a life sentence are said to have been ‘lifed away’. They have dead eyes and grey skin. They are inert. All hope is extinguished. Psychopaths aside they lose any sense of menace after a decade or so, and turn to human dust

    I have a friend who does NA meetings in HMP Dartmoor (which now houses just the saddest old cases, the prison is due to shut entirely, soon). He says the lifers there are absolutely pitiful. They often look 10-20 years older than their actual age

    A life sentence is a pretty scary thing
    Fine - don't kill people then.
    No argument from me. As I said even before the sentence, Couzens deserves the whole life tariff

    Indeed I think this is a rare occasion of complete PB agreement
    Is there anyone in Britain who doesn't agree with the judge on whole life?
    Will be disappointed if Spiked doesn’t have a hot take.
    Brendan will make it ultimately the fault of Remoaners and the Liberal Elite, but how he'll do it I don't yet know. (And he's probably still working it out himself.)
    Won't they (Spiked and Brendan) blame it on Covid restrictions? If it hadn't been for lockdown rules, Couzens wouldn't have had an excuse to stop and 'arrest' Sarah.

    On reflection, I don't think even Spiked would dare do that.
    Piers Corbyn was claiming that at a spectacularly inappropriate demonstration yesterday.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 10,216
    PT reminds me of Patrick Minford.

    Founder of “Economists for Brexit” who predicted that Brexit would “mostly eliminate manufacturing”.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,076
    NEW THREAD
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 12,449
    edited October 2021
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
    Or just buy imported meat.

    Not the end of the world either way. Meat is meat.
    British producers thank you for your support ! Next you’ll be spinning the devastating losses incurred by British fisheries into a positive .
    I will say the same for fisheries as I say for farming, driver's salaries or anything else ... Let the market sort it out.

    If our fishermen have a competitive advantage then great, exercise it, if not then c'est la vie.
    The fisheries have been screwed because of Bozos deal . The NTBs in that deal is what has caused all the issues . You seem happy to see many sectors go to the wall which is rather unpatriotic given I thought voting Brexit was a badge of patriotism and all Remainers like myself were allegedly not patriotic enough !
    Philip Thompson is a libertarian free trader who I believe wants global free trade with no tariffs and customs barriers anywhere and no state subsidies for farming or industry.

    Though I don't think he has gone so far as to support free movement globally and accepts Boris' points system for migrants
    ... yes a strange ommission to his liberatarian ideals.
    Why's it strange?

    I've said I don't care if people are free to come here so long as we eliminate the green belt and people are free to build too. Since we don't have free construction, we can't justify free movement either. The two need to go hand-in-hand.

    I back free construction though. I back the elimination of the green belt and the elimination of planning permission (though I'd keep restrictions exclusively for AONBs etc).
    So people are free to come here without limit if we concrete all over the green belt and most of the English countryside to build all the extra homes for them. A deeply unpopular proposal (and most people don't live within easy reach of AONB and National Parks, especially in London and the Home Counties
    Back to GCSE Geography class for you!

    How about the South Downs, New Forest, Dedham Vale, Broads, Surrey Hills, North Wessex Downs, High Weald, Chilterns, Cotswolds... I mean these are just of the top of my head!

    (P.S. I absolutely agree with you about the green belt however!)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 22,322

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    I see SKS said he thinks the next James Bond should be a woman

    Dont tell Rosie Duffield

    Isn't that just the easiest laziest answer to a completely irrelevant question for a politician to be asked.
    My answer would be more circumspect: "I'm excited to find out who the next Bond will be, it would be fun to see what they could do with a woman in the role, but I'm sure there are many male actors who would also be great choices."
    The trouble with these sorts of questions is that they get column inches and people end up saying "hasn't Keir Starmer got bigger things to worry about than the next Bond?!?" And, of course, he has - but he was just answering the question given.

    Incidentally, I absolutely don't think there should be a female Bond.

    Firstly, film makers should be creating new, strong female leads - not some sort of novelty hand-me-down of a six decade old franchise.

    Secondly, James Bond is not Dr Who - it is not, in the story, a pseudonym, and he does not regenerate. It is just a different actor playing exactly the same character. Indeed, there are occasional back-references. Of course, the huge plot hole is that Bond should now be in his 90s. But the premise of the story is simply not that Daniel Craig was given the Bond name and 007 number when Piers Brosnan retired - it is that Craig IS Brosnan etc.
    Yes, Bond is like Bart Simpson. He never grows up.
    Like Bond fans.

    And Simpsons fans.

    And Dr Who fans.
    Are there still Simpson fans?
    Goodness me, yes!
    Not you, surely?
    Fraid so. Our youngest loves it. Even the wife chortles occasionally, and she dislikes childish content.

    Mainly repeats, but some of the newer episodes are wonderful. A few total duds, but hey, even the greats have their dips.
    Everyone wants to work for Hank Scorpio!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,143

    PT reminds me of Patrick Minford.

    Founder of “Economists for Brexit” who predicted that Brexit would “mostly eliminate manufacturing”.

    Had we gone to No Deal and tariffs on manufacturing exports to the EU that might have been the case, now we have an EU trade deal the impact of Brexit has been more on services with NTBs. Plus of course manufacturing can take advantage of new trade deals with the likes of Australia to expand exports
  • kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    eek said:

    I see SKS said he thinks the next James Bond should be a woman

    Dont tell Rosie Duffield

    Isn't that just the easiest laziest answer to a completely irrelevant question for a politician to be asked.
    My answer would be more circumspect: "I'm excited to find out who the next Bond will be, it would be fun to see what they could do with a woman in the role, but I'm sure there are many male actors who would also be great choices."
    The trouble with these sorts of questions is that they get column inches and people end up saying "hasn't Keir Starmer got bigger things to worry about than the next Bond?!?" And, of course, he has - but he was just answering the question given.

    Incidentally, I absolutely don't think there should be a female Bond.

    Firstly, film makers should be creating new, strong female leads - not some sort of novelty hand-me-down of a six decade old franchise.

    Secondly, James Bond is not Dr Who - it is not, in the story, a pseudonym, and he does not regenerate. It is just a different actor playing exactly the same character. Indeed, there are occasional back-references. Of course, the huge plot hole is that Bond should now be in his 90s. But the premise of the story is simply not that Daniel Craig was given the Bond name and 007 number when Piers Brosnan retired - it is that Craig IS Brosnan etc.
    Yes, Bond is like Bart Simpson. He never grows up.
    The whole Bond 'debate' just seems really weird to me, as people conflate the positive ideas of equality and roles for women etc with 'it is time for a female Bond' as if the two matters are connected.

    It feels like some are trying a bit hard with it, as often happens with so called culture war stuff, in either direction.
    You don't say?

    FWIW my view is that there absolutely should not be a female Bond, because Bond is a male character. But I have no problem with people thinking or arguing otherwise.

    As with much of this Culture War shite, it's limited to the Culture Warriors on both sides who have far more in common with each other than the bulk of the population, who consider them morons.
    As with much of this PB politics geek shite, it's limited to the partisans on all sides who have far more in common with each other than the bulk of the population, who consider them morons.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,143
    edited October 2021
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
    Or just buy imported meat.

    Not the end of the world either way. Meat is meat.
    British producers thank you for your support ! Next you’ll be spinning the devastating losses incurred by British fisheries into a positive .
    I will say the same for fisheries as I say for farming, driver's salaries or anything else ... Let the market sort it out.

    If our fishermen have a competitive advantage then great, exercise it, if not then c'est la vie.
    The fisheries have been screwed because of Bozos deal . The NTBs in that deal is what has caused all the issues . You seem happy to see many sectors go to the wall which is rather unpatriotic given I thought voting Brexit was a badge of patriotism and all Remainers like myself were allegedly not patriotic enough !
    Philip Thompson is a libertarian free trader who I believe wants global free trade with no tariffs and customs barriers anywhere and no state subsidies for farming or industry.

    Though I don't think he has gone so far as to support free movement globally and accepts Boris' points system for migrants
    ... yes a strange ommission to his liberatarian ideals.
    Why's it strange?

    I've said I don't care if people are free to come here so long as we eliminate the green belt and people are free to build too. Since we don't have free construction, we can't justify free movement either. The two need to go hand-in-hand.

    I back free construction though. I back the elimination of the green belt and the elimination of planning permission (though I'd keep restrictions exclusively for AONBs etc).
    So people are free to come here without limit if we concrete all over the green belt and most of the English countryside to build all the extra homes for them. A deeply unpopular proposal (and most people don't live within easy reach of AONB and National Parks, especially in London and the Home Counties
    On the contrary, an excellent if modest proposal entirely consistent with the spirit of true Toryism. You sound just like a LD.
    No, the Liberals are traditionally the party of the free market more than the Tories who have often been protectionist (even if LD councillors and by election candidates go full NIMBY to get elected).

    Boris backed down on his planning proposals because of opposition from backbench Tory MPs
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,628

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:
    It is a powerful piece. But I think Owen Jones is being rather naïve. There are two views about Starmer's leadership campaign:

    1. He lied through his teeth.
    2. He did what he needed to do to win (i.e. not alienate the left too much).

    I'm not comfortable with either, but the proof of the pudding..... He won.
    Yes, I'm with you on balance. I sense Starmer's instincts are sound, that he has a big chance of next PM and could end up being a good one. It's just that if Labour lose the edge which the likes of Jones imo bring, I will miss that. I think the prospect of a Labour government should make people anxious, so long as it's the right people feeling that way.
    Owen Jones may change his mind on Starmer. Didn't he have a bit of a rollercoaster ride with Corbyn? I agree with the thrust of what you're saying, but we should be aiming to make a significant minority anxious, not a majority. We'll be able to tell if Starmer is hitting the right notes by the level of hysteria on PB.
    He did! Called for Jez to go because he looked like a loser. Then came GE17 and Owen's been overcompensating ever since.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,143
    edited October 2021

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
    Or just buy imported meat.

    Not the end of the world either way. Meat is meat.
    British producers thank you for your support ! Next you’ll be spinning the devastating losses incurred by British fisheries into a positive .
    I will say the same for fisheries as I say for farming, driver's salaries or anything else ... Let the market sort it out.

    If our fishermen have a competitive advantage then great, exercise it, if not then c'est la vie.
    The fisheries have been screwed because of Bozos deal . The NTBs in that deal is what has caused all the issues . You seem happy to see many sectors go to the wall which is rather unpatriotic given I thought voting Brexit was a badge of patriotism and all Remainers like myself were allegedly not patriotic enough !
    Philip Thompson is a libertarian free trader who I believe wants global free trade with no tariffs and customs barriers anywhere and no state subsidies for farming or industry.

    Though I don't think he has gone so far as to support free movement globally and accepts Boris' points system for migrants
    ... yes a strange ommission to his liberatarian ideals.
    Why's it strange?

    I've said I don't care if people are free to come here so long as we eliminate the green belt and people are free to build too. Since we don't have free construction, we can't justify free movement either. The two need to go hand-in-hand.

    I back free construction though. I back the elimination of the green belt and the elimination of planning permission (though I'd keep restrictions exclusively for AONBs etc).
    So people are free to come here without limit if we concrete all over the green belt and most of the English countryside to build all the extra homes for them. A deeply unpopular proposal (and most people don't live within easy reach of AONB and National Parks, especially in London and the Home Counties
    Back to GCSE Geography class for you!

    How about the South Downs, New Forest, Dedham Vale, Broads, Surrey Hills, North Wessex Downs, High Weald, Chilterns, Cotswolds... I mean these are just of the top of my head!

    (P.S. I absolutely agree with you about the green belt however!)
    Of those only the Surrey Hills is fully in the Home Counties, of the rest part of the Chilterns and Dedham Vale and High Weald and a tiny fraction of the North Wessex Downs and no National Parks are in London and the Home Counties (ie Essex, Hertfordshire, Bucks, Kent, Surrey and Berkshire)
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,806
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
    Or just buy imported meat.

    Not the end of the world either way. Meat is meat.
    British producers thank you for your support ! Next you’ll be spinning the devastating losses incurred by British fisheries into a positive .
    I will say the same for fisheries as I say for farming, driver's salaries or anything else ... Let the market sort it out.

    If our fishermen have a competitive advantage then great, exercise it, if not then c'est la vie.
    The fisheries have been screwed because of Bozos deal . The NTBs in that deal is what has caused all the issues . You seem happy to see many sectors go to the wall which is rather unpatriotic given I thought voting Brexit was a badge of patriotism and all Remainers like myself were allegedly not patriotic enough !
    Philip Thompson is a libertarian free trader who I believe wants global free trade with no tariffs and customs barriers anywhere and no state subsidies for farming or industry.

    Though I don't think he has gone so far as to support free movement globally and accepts Boris' points system for migrants
    ... yes a strange ommission to his liberatarian ideals.
    Why's it strange?

    I've said I don't care if people are free to come here so long as we eliminate the green belt and people are free to build too. Since we don't have free construction, we can't justify free movement either. The two need to go hand-in-hand.

    I back free construction though. I back the elimination of the green belt and the elimination of planning permission (though I'd keep restrictions exclusively for AONBs etc).
    So people are free to come here without limit if we concrete all over the green belt and most of the English countryside to build all the extra homes for them. A deeply unpopular proposal (and most people don't live within easy reach of AONB and National Parks, especially in London and the Home Counties)
    Now here is a dilemma as I agree with both @HYUFD and @Philip_Thompson (I know I'm a LD and so you should expect nothing different that I support both sides of the argument).

    I believe in free movement of goods and labour in theory. However with different countries at different levels of prosperity that is not possible with labour as there would be mass migration. There is not the infrastructure to support that and I don't want the greenbelt destroyed. Once we do it's gone forever.

    I did like what we had in the EU. Introducing countries under but close to our level of prosperity, causing immigration and bringing those countries up to our level fairly quickly after which the movement would balance out nicely.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 38,274

    TimS said:

    Council elections are fascinating, and local government deserves more attention and more respect.

    I've often wondered why no major democracies have a pyramidal form of representation, where everyone elects their local councillors, and those then select representatives to act as MPs for multi-member constituences. It would strengthen the ties between local and national representation, remove duplication, provide for something closer to PR while maintaining (very) local links between the MP and the constituents, and open up a much bigger and more diverse political talent pool allowing people to rise through the ranks.

    Other side benefits would be the virtual end of well connected candidates being parachuted into safe seats. One downside might be that it would put off ambitious high profile individuals who might not want to start at the bottom - the likes of Rory Stewart for example, or Glenda Jackson back in the day.

    Or, alternatively, maybe local councillors would choose MPs who they consider most likely to act in the best interests of local councillors.
    That would be an improvement
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 12,449
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    BREAKING: The UK is facing a Christmas this year without pigs in blankets due to a shortage of staff
    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1443881748270551044?s=20

    Presumably this is just for shop bought versions; I assume a shortage of sausages or bacon would have been reported more widely.
    There seems to be a shortage of abbatoir workers all round at present, some may well face a nut roast Christmas even if they are meat eaters
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58749841
    Or just buy imported meat.

    Not the end of the world either way. Meat is meat.
    British producers thank you for your support ! Next you’ll be spinning the devastating losses incurred by British fisheries into a positive .
    I will say the same for fisheries as I say for farming, driver's salaries or anything else ... Let the market sort it out.

    If our fishermen have a competitive advantage then great, exercise it, if not then c'est la vie.
    The fisheries have been screwed because of Bozos deal . The NTBs in that deal is what has caused all the issues . You seem happy to see many sectors go to the wall which is rather unpatriotic given I thought voting Brexit was a badge of patriotism and all Remainers like myself were allegedly not patriotic enough !
    Philip Thompson is a libertarian free trader who I believe wants global free trade with no tariffs and customs barriers anywhere and no state subsidies for farming or industry.

    Though I don't think he has gone so far as to support free movement globally and accepts Boris' points system for migrants
    ... yes a strange ommission to his liberatarian ideals.
    Why's it strange?

    I've said I don't care if people are free to come here so long as we eliminate the green belt and people are free to build too. Since we don't have free construction, we can't justify free movement either. The two need to go hand-in-hand.

    I back free construction though. I back the elimination of the green belt and the elimination of planning permission (though I'd keep restrictions exclusively for AONBs etc).
    So people are free to come here without limit if we concrete all over the green belt and most of the English countryside to build all the extra homes for them. A deeply unpopular proposal (and most people don't live within easy reach of AONB and National Parks, especially in London and the Home Counties
    Back to GCSE Geography class for you!

    How about the South Downs, New Forest, Dedham Vale, Broads, Surrey Hills, North Wessex Downs, High Weald, Chilterns, Cotswolds... I mean these are just of the top of my head!

    (P.S. I absolutely agree with you about the green belt however!)
    Of those only the Surrey Hills is fully in the Home Counties, of the rest part of the Chilterns and Dedham Vale and High Weald and a tiny fraction of the North Wessex Downs and no National Parks are in London and the Home Counties (ie Essex, Hertfordshire, Bucks, Kent, Surrey and Berkshire)
    Your OP says 'within easy reach of' not 'in'. You do make me chuckle sometimes.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited October 2021
    NEW THREAD
This discussion has been closed.