Will the panickers stop panicking when their tanks are full? – politicalbetting.com
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eek said:
Has the army been sent in? The statement is that they will be and that will be may have provisos against it.Scott_xP said:
Read a newspapersquareroot2 said:We havent mobilised the army.
I read that quickly and thought you were saying the 'army may be sent in but the Provos were against it'.
Now that really would be a return to the 1970s 😬0 -
Except he had the poster in question spot on.Benpointer said:
When did the East Coast Main Line stop running? I missed that.TOPPING said:
LOL. It is when it is.Benpointer said:
Narrow minded people generally don't realise that driving a car is not the only way to travel.Nigel_Foremain said:
Narrow minded people generally don't travel muchTOPPING said:
How many miles a week do you drive?MarqueeMark said:
There is no fuel shortage.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:
...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.
A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.
Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
But good point otherwise, those cycle lanes on the A1(M) are full to brimming.
I live in a small village, no public transport, so I know about how essential cars can be.
But to equate driving few miles with being narrow-minded, as @Nigel_Foremain did is, er, very narrow-minded imho.1 -
As Reagan said: If you're explaining, you're losing.Stuartinromford said:
And psychologically foolish.Scott_xP said:
The taboo is breaking.TimS said:I sort of agree, but sort of don't. This one won't do it, but given the taboo surrounding even uttering the word Brexit despite most of the visions of project fear unfolding before our eyes there needs to be some kind of electoral protest party out there to keep pressure on the opposition.
The Express headline today is "Don't blame Brexit" and I think IDS penned a Telegraph column with the same line
Pathetic whiny pleading from the architects suggests that they think people are in fact joining the dots...
It's like saying "don't think of an elephant"... Inevitably you have nothing but pachyderms in your head.1 -
v sensible. We are probably at the peak (trough?) of petrol non availability. We hope, obvs.eek said:
This is again the prisoner's dilemma but it's not that exact variant where you need to move instantly because in this case there is no finite limit as we know deliveries are continuing.TOPPING said:
It's interesting - because ofc the longer one leaves it the less wiggle room there is to find a station.eek said:
My car probably has fuel for 50 miles in it. As it will take a few days for stations to be refilled and I don't need it today I will set off tomorrow afternoon or Wednesday to try and find some fuel.TOPPING said:
Well I know that you don't drive any miles in the UK per weekSandpit said:
Well quite.MarqueeMark said:
There is no fuel shortage.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.
A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.
Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
What it appears happened is that a single fuel distributor in Kent lost a few drivers to a rival, which caused a handful of petrol stations to run out before their delivery. This was first noticed on Thursday.
Followed by the Tw@tterati and some of the MSM shouting loudly “Don’t talk about PANIC BUYING”, and three days later we unsurprisingly have a self-fulfilling prophecy of queues for petrol everywhere.
But come back to my example: You have six days of petrol left in your car. Do you tough it out and wait for whatever the HMF fuel tanker equivalent of the Green Goddesses or do you go looking for petrol.
Facebook will probably tell me when things arrive but I'm not in any hurry provided a have it before Saturday.
My point is, cf queuing outside Northern Rock, it is eminently rational for people to "panic buy" in such circumstances.
Unless of course you are sitting in your garden looking out over a charming vista counting insects and not driving anywhere.
So it's more a matter of deciding when is the best guess that a petrol station will have had a fuel delivery and people have stopped immediately panicking. Which is why I'm not doing anything about it today as it would be a fools errand.0 -
Covid was a thing that happened to us, and the Government made a bad fist of it.Jonathan said:The CV19 situation taught us that bad things happen, which the government can't control. That memory is raw and people, rightly or wrongly, are taking responsibility for themselves by creating a local cache.
The government would have been better advised to swing the other way and do things that are reassuring, rather than 'crisis, what crisis'.
Brexit was a thing the Government entirely did to us, and they fucked that up even worse.1 -
You have absolutely no way of knowing that.Sandpit said:
Oh indeed, but what we are seeing is a bunch of selfish tw@ts who don’t really need fuel for a few days, getting in the way of those who do.TOPPING said:
What we've learned from the past 18 months is that some jobs can't be done from home.Sandpit said:
The answer is, it depends on what those six days of fuel are for.TOPPING said:
Well I know that you don't drive any miles in the UK per weekSandpit said:
Well quite.MarqueeMark said:
There is no fuel shortage.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.
A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.
Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
What it appears happened is that a single fuel distributor in Kent lost a few drivers to a rival, which caused a handful of petrol stations to run out before their delivery. This was first noticed on Thursday.
Followed by the Tw@tterati and some of the MSM shouting loudly “Don’t talk about PANIC BUYING”, and three days later we unsurprisingly have a self-fulfilling prophecy of queues for petrol everywhere.
But come back to my example: You have six days of petrol left in your car. Do you tough it out and wait for whatever the HMF fuel tanker equivalent of the Green Goddesses or do you go looking for petrol.
If I’m spending the next six days taking a sick relative to their chemotherapy on the other side of the country, then yes I worry about fuel. I’ll drive around all night and brim the 75 litre tank at every opportunity.
If I’m spending the next six days driving to the office, or to meet friends, then I’m not too worried, if I run out, I’ll work from home until everyone’s stopped panicking.
Surely one thing we’ve all learned over the past 18 months, is that life can be lived remotely when required.
Personally, I live about 15 miles from the office. A tank will last about three weeks if I don’t go anywhere else.
"Driving to the office" when your office is a hospital ward of bus depot or...or...
But yes to the majority of PBers it is all a fuss over nothing because we can retire to the study to do our work.1 -
Dropped in for fuel last night when out testing the heating in a hoose.eek said:
My car probably has fuel for 50 miles in it. As it will take a few days for stations to be refilled and I don't need it today I will set off tomorrow afternoon or Wednesday to try and find some fuel.TOPPING said:
Well I know that you don't drive any miles in the UK per weekSandpit said:
Well quite.MarqueeMark said:
There is no fuel shortage.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.
A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.
Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
What it appears happened is that a single fuel distributor in Kent lost a few drivers to a rival, which caused a handful of petrol stations to run out before their delivery. This was first noticed on Thursday.
Followed by the Tw@tterati and some of the MSM shouting loudly “Don’t talk about PANIC BUYING”, and three days later we unsurprisingly have a self-fulfilling prophecy of queues for petrol everywhere.
But come back to my example: You have six days of petrol left in your car. Do you tough it out and wait for whatever the HMF fuel tanker equivalent of the Green Goddesses or do you go looking for petrol.
Facebook will probably tell me when things arrive but I'm not in any hurry provided a have it before Saturday.
Our local ASDA - not sure. Our local Morrisons is out of diesel (though it let me have me some dregs), but still has petrol. About 4 cars in the station at 9pm.
No idea on the restocking situation.
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Have you not F***ed off yet slimeball.Nigel_Foremain said:
Says the man who still (in spite of everything that is known about him) supports the fat little toad known as "Wee Eck" . Such a great judge of character you are Malc lol.malcolmg said:
She looks better than StarmerMikeL said:Anyone who thinks Lab would have any chance whatsoever under Rayner take a look at the front pages - all with the same picture of her - she looks totally inconceivable as a possible PM.
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Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.
There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html
At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark3 -
I'll have a guess that fuel shortages are like food (aka bottled water) shortages, unaffordable housing, train strikes and exploitative business whining they can't get people to work for minimum wages very much a London & South-East issue.tlg86 said:Fuel anecdote. Driving back from football yesterday, my friend was on the phone to his brother who had just managed to fill up. The person in front of him filled up two jerry cans. Whilst he was filling up, he heard the bloke next to him hit the clicker pretty quickly. So he had a look to see how much he had put in. £12.
The numpties filling up with well over half a tank are obviously contributing to the traffic jams, but this will soon be over.0 -
Not to be smug or complacent but I have a full tank. Couldn't be fuller.0
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I keep reading bollocks like this. Which compares and contrasts from the non-shortages being reported across the EEA.MarqueeMark said:
There is no fuel shortage.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.
A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.
Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
The cat is now out of the bag. We need them more than they need us. I agree that shouting abuse won't work. Neither frankly will "we did tell you". But "this is a Brexit issue" will sink in until all bar the most obstinate accept that the method our departure has been sub-optimal.
None of these issues are a result of having left the EU. They are a result of having left the EEA and CU with no idea how stuff works or a plan of what to do next. We aren't going to rejoin. But we may reconnect all of the parallel aligned ports that we arbitrarily chose to sever.4 -
There's only so much fuel people can put in their tanks. Once all the panickers have their tanks brim full, demand will drop below normal for a few weeks.TOPPING said:
v sensible. We are probably at the peak (trough?) of petrol non availability. We hope, obvs.eek said:
This is again the prisoner's dilemma but it's not that exact variant where you need to move instantly because in this case there is no finite limit as we know deliveries are continuing.TOPPING said:
It's interesting - because ofc the longer one leaves it the less wiggle room there is to find a station.eek said:
My car probably has fuel for 50 miles in it. As it will take a few days for stations to be refilled and I don't need it today I will set off tomorrow afternoon or Wednesday to try and find some fuel.TOPPING said:
Well I know that you don't drive any miles in the UK per weekSandpit said:
Well quite.MarqueeMark said:
There is no fuel shortage.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.
A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.
Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
What it appears happened is that a single fuel distributor in Kent lost a few drivers to a rival, which caused a handful of petrol stations to run out before their delivery. This was first noticed on Thursday.
Followed by the Tw@tterati and some of the MSM shouting loudly “Don’t talk about PANIC BUYING”, and three days later we unsurprisingly have a self-fulfilling prophecy of queues for petrol everywhere.
But come back to my example: You have six days of petrol left in your car. Do you tough it out and wait for whatever the HMF fuel tanker equivalent of the Green Goddesses or do you go looking for petrol.
Facebook will probably tell me when things arrive but I'm not in any hurry provided a have it before Saturday.
My point is, cf queuing outside Northern Rock, it is eminently rational for people to "panic buy" in such circumstances.
Unless of course you are sitting in your garden looking out over a charming vista counting insects and not driving anywhere.
So it's more a matter of deciding when is the best guess that a petrol station will have had a fuel delivery and people have stopped immediately panicking. Which is why I'm not doing anything about it today as it would be a fools errand.
And 'normal' now is still, I suspect, less than 'normal' was pre-covid.0 -
One other notable feature of the German results is that the Junior partner of the coalition came out on top. Not often that we see that.NickPalmer said:
I think you can't ignore the Green surge, even if it fell short of what seemed likely at one point. The "not very big 2" getting together to rule would look dated immediately. On paper a grand SPD/CDU/Green coalition would work better, but I'd have thought the FDP claim on a small share of government was much better than the CDU claim on a big share after a disastrous result.Rob_downunder said:
It's always difficult to read messages from fragmented electoral results, but doesn't the most accurate reading from the German people seem to be "we'd like more of the same please, but with Scholz as chancellor instead of the other chap?"NickPalmer said:
I don't think so - difficult to spend an election campaigning against someone, win handsomely, and then invite them into a coalition. The FDP and Greens have different priorities but not totally conflicting ones - the Greens are centrist on economics (and frankly barely interested) but want lots of green initiatives, the FDP are classic (i.e. right-wing, as you say) liberals on econimics and agnostic on greenery (and similarly barely interested). Neither of them have indulged in the culture war nonsense, and they were both being polite about each other last night. An SPD/Green/FDP coalition looks natural. You can still get 1.37 odds for it on Betfair. You can get 10 on Rob's bet if you want a saver. None of the other possibilities look at all likely.Rob_downunder said:RE German Elections:
My instinct says Scholz will probably push for a reverse 'grand coalition' with the CDU, as an SPD/Green coalition isn't enough for a majority, and the FDP seem (economically at least) to the right of the CDU/CSU.6 -
- Grant Shapps relaxed rules in July to let HGV drivers work longer hours
- in the first month of the relaxation, just 517 of the UK’s roughly 300,000 active HGV drivers notified the Department for Transport that they intended to use the scheme
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/09/26/shapps-plan-let-truckers-work-longer-hours-fall-flat/0 -
Change of leaders. Shows how much they matter.Foxy said:
One other notable feature of the German results is that the Junior partner of the coalition came out on top. Not often that we see that.NickPalmer said:
I think you can't ignore the Green surge, even if it fell short of what seemed likely at one point. The "not very big 2" getting together to rule would look dated immediately. On paper a grand SPD/CDU/Green coalition would work better, but I'd have thought the FDP claim on a small share of government was much better than the CDU claim on a big share after a disastrous result.Rob_downunder said:
It's always difficult to read messages from fragmented electoral results, but doesn't the most accurate reading from the German people seem to be "we'd like more of the same please, but with Scholz as chancellor instead of the other chap?"NickPalmer said:
I don't think so - difficult to spend an election campaigning against someone, win handsomely, and then invite them into a coalition. The FDP and Greens have different priorities but not totally conflicting ones - the Greens are centrist on economics (and frankly barely interested) but want lots of green initiatives, the FDP are classic (i.e. right-wing, as you say) liberals on econimics and agnostic on greenery (and similarly barely interested). Neither of them have indulged in the culture war nonsense, and they were both being polite about each other last night. An SPD/Green/FDP coalition looks natural. You can still get 1.37 odds for it on Betfair. You can get 10 on Rob's bet if you want a saver. None of the other possibilities look at all likely.Rob_downunder said:RE German Elections:
My instinct says Scholz will probably push for a reverse 'grand coalition' with the CDU, as an SPD/Green coalition isn't enough for a majority, and the FDP seem (economically at least) to the right of the CDU/CSU.1 -
You can get drums of oxygenated 110RON race fuel delivered from various web sites. It is at least 4 quid/litre though!TOPPING said:
Yes as I said, it is entirely rational to join the "panic buying", cf Northern Rock.turbotubbs said:
There is no fuel shortage in the country. There is a (hopefully temporary) shortage at the pumps, triggered by the media, and then by panic buying. Interesting on the radio just now, the comment that once the 'run' starts, you are being rational to join the panic if you need fuel. This is the argument that @IshmaelZ was running with, and I understand it. I just wish the initial people weren't so selfish.TOPPING said:
Not a question directed at you but good to know.Benpointer said:
Since we retired and with the covid effect, the Mrs P. and I have done about 3,000 miles in total in the past year, across our three cars.TOPPING said:
How many miles a week do you drive?MarqueeMark said:
There is no fuel shortage.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.
A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.
Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
I am interested in the weekly mileage of those shouting loudest about there being no fuel shortage.
But I am also loving your no shortage "in the country" vs shortage "at the pumps".
Where, if I may be so bold, and appreciating that several of my friends are sticking red diesel from the farm in their cars, do you buy petrol if not "at the pumps"?
https://aaoil.co.uk/product/sunoco-260gt-plus-109ron-99mon-4-8-oxygen/
The ECU and shitty narrow band lambda sensors on your average shitbox won't be able to keep the combustion stoich though so order with caution.1 -
A few years ago the SPD was dead and buried. Labour need to look and learn.Foxy said:
One other notable feature of the German results is that the Junior partner of the coalition came out on top. Not often that we see that.NickPalmer said:
I think you can't ignore the Green surge, even if it fell short of what seemed likely at one point. The "not very big 2" getting together to rule would look dated immediately. On paper a grand SPD/CDU/Green coalition would work better, but I'd have thought the FDP claim on a small share of government was much better than the CDU claim on a big share after a disastrous result.Rob_downunder said:
It's always difficult to read messages from fragmented electoral results, but doesn't the most accurate reading from the German people seem to be "we'd like more of the same please, but with Scholz as chancellor instead of the other chap?"NickPalmer said:
I don't think so - difficult to spend an election campaigning against someone, win handsomely, and then invite them into a coalition. The FDP and Greens have different priorities but not totally conflicting ones - the Greens are centrist on economics (and frankly barely interested) but want lots of green initiatives, the FDP are classic (i.e. right-wing, as you say) liberals on econimics and agnostic on greenery (and similarly barely interested). Neither of them have indulged in the culture war nonsense, and they were both being polite about each other last night. An SPD/Green/FDP coalition looks natural. You can still get 1.37 odds for it on Betfair. You can get 10 on Rob's bet if you want a saver. None of the other possibilities look at all likely.Rob_downunder said:RE German Elections:
My instinct says Scholz will probably push for a reverse 'grand coalition' with the CDU, as an SPD/Green coalition isn't enough for a majority, and the FDP seem (economically at least) to the right of the CDU/CSU.2 -
You will be housebound thenNigel_Foremain said:
Narrow minded people generally don't travel muchTOPPING said:
How many miles a week do you drive?MarqueeMark said:
There is no fuel shortage.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.
A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.
Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".1 -
Its government strategy to run down anything fossil fuel related and has been for years.MattW said:Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.
There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html
At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark0 -
I like the Jamaica coalition, I think it's my ideal form of government. It's a wide spectrum of well-intentioned people, which inevitably means there are lots of bad ideas, but for each of the bad ideas there's someone in another party who can explain why it's bad and hopefully stop them doing it.0
-
And then in three days time when the stations have been refuelled and there is no issue anymore as all the idiots have full tanks and all the stations are working ... What do you do then other than clean the egg off your face.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
The 2000 fuel crisis only lasted weeks because stations were NOT being refilled. They are today. Even then despite weeks of disruption, the 2001 election wasn't exactly fortuitous for the Opposition now was it?0 -
Thats a very good point, but what do you think they could do to reassure at this point?Jonathan said:
The government would be well advised to stop blaming the media or the people and start thinking why people lack confidence and how it might rebuild it.turbotubbs said:
There is no fuel shortage in the country. There is a (hopefully temporary) shortage at the pumps, triggered by the media, and then by panic buying. Interesting on the radio just now, the comment that once the 'run' starts, you are being rational to join the panic if you need fuel. This is the argument that @IshmaelZ was running with, and I understand it. I just wish the initial people weren't so selfish.TOPPING said:
Not a question directed at you but good to know.Benpointer said:
Since we retired and with the covid effect, the Mrs P. and I have done about 3,000 miles in total in the past year, across our three cars.TOPPING said:
How many miles a week do you drive?MarqueeMark said:
There is no fuel shortage.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.
A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.
Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
I am interested in the weekly mileage of those shouting loudest about there being no fuel shortage.
The CV19 situation taught us that bad things happen, which the government can't control. That memory is raw and people, rightly or wrongly, are taking responsibility for themselves by creating a local cache.
The government would have been better advised to swing the other way and do things that are reassuring, rather than 'crisis, what crisis'.0 -
There's an interesting parallel in the blame game between this and the financial crisis. Both are international problems, with the UK appearing to be suffering more than some others.
In the financial crisis Brown's defence was exactly that this was global, had started in the US, that Britain is doing its best to weather the storm. Cameron's mantra, repeatedly, was to lay all the blame for the crisis squarely on Brown's shoulders. It worked a trick.
Same now, if Labour has any sense. It's an international issue exacerbated by particularly British factors notably including Brexit. They should take a leaf out of Cameron's book. But they won't, because they're frit of the mythological red wall voters they are so desperate to placate.0 -
From the blockquotes the 'poster in question' looks to be you.TOPPING said:
Except he had the poster in question spot on.Benpointer said:
When did the East Coast Main Line stop running? I missed that.TOPPING said:
LOL. It is when it is.Benpointer said:
Narrow minded people generally don't realise that driving a car is not the only way to travel.Nigel_Foremain said:
Narrow minded people generally don't travel muchTOPPING said:
How many miles a week do you drive?MarqueeMark said:
There is no fuel shortage.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.
A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.
Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
But good point otherwise, those cycle lanes on the A1(M) are full to brimming.
I live in a small village, no public transport, so I know about how essential cars can be.
But to equate driving few miles with being narrow-minded, as @Nigel_Foremain did is, er, very narrow-minded imho.0 -
Yes, this inaccurate conflation of driver with supply shortages in the EU is being repeated across the media, including even on the BBC, and really should have been knocked on the head by now. This is exactly the kind of role Starmer could have been taking, and marrying with a line about "incompetent handling of Brexit", if he hadn't hamstrung himself by backing rather than abstaining on the deal. In a vacuum, myths persist.RochdalePioneers said:
I keep reading bollocks like this. Which compares and contrasts from the non-shortages being reported across the EEA.MarqueeMark said:
There is no fuel shortage.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.
A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.
Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
The cat is now out of the bag. We need them more than they need us. I agree that shouting abuse won't work. Neither frankly will "we did tell you". But "this is a Brexit issue" will sink in until all bar the most obstinate accept that the method our departure has been sub-optimal.
None of these issues are a result of having left the EU. They are a result of having left the EEA and CU with no idea how stuff works or a plan of what to do next. We aren't going to rejoin. But we may reconnect all of the parallel aligned ports that we arbitrarily chose to sever.
0 -
Re OGH's question, I think it does have to settle down in terms of fuel buying. Even if people with almost full tanks keep topping up, you still reach equilibrium unless they actually drive a lot more to find stations to top up. Whereas people were topping up say 35L (for easy maths) every week, if they top up 5L every day instead then they'll buy the same fuel. The shortage now is everyone with say space for 30L topping up ASAP when most would have waited a few days at least. That fuel sold now should mean less demand when they would normally have topped up. The question is, how long does it take to get to that equilibrium (i.e. how long until everyone fills up wouldn't normally have done so). The longer it goes on, the more people will panic buy. It doesn't necessarily end until everyone has panic bought once.
There could still be queues at fuel stations even after the equilibrium point as everyone topping up 5L is very inefficient use of the stations. But there should, barring a worsening of the distribution problems, be fuel there (after queueing) within a few (depending on above) days.
We're good for at least a couple of weeks, from refuelling well over a week ago. We won't be topping up until we're in the red, which is about 70 miles. I have a lot of sympathy for those commuting by car, those who were low on fuel and those with big trips planned who will be getting twitchy.0 -
Plus all the EU vehicles and drivers that used to be an integral part of the UK's logistics network. Arbitrarily banning cabotage because they don't understand it has made a bad situation worse.TOPPING said:Let's revise the numbers again.
Our apparent shortage: 100,000.
Of which,
50,000 residual have had it for years have evidently lived with it.
25,000 fewer tests Covid.
25,000 Brexit we got the foreigners to go home.
And again, there are similar shortages of drivers in parts of Europe. It has not created problems like we have here because of the vast labour pool able to work anywhere and fill in the gaps. We don't have access to that hence the unique to the UK problem.1 -
Punitive penury ?noneoftheabove said:
Its true, they nearly all voted remain, and most voted Labour, Green or LD, if they could even be bothered to get out of bed in time. I concur, it's disgusting treacherous behaviour and bravo brave Sir Boris for taxing them into punary.Nigelb said:
Disgusting if true.noneoftheabove said:I see in the FT that the government are planning to raise some more tax. The target? Young workers of course, with the repayment threshold moving down from £27,295 to around £20-23k. Serves them right for not voting for Brexit or Boris.
I applaud the neologism.0 -
Of course there really is a shortage of HGV drivers but the way the propaganda has been run is akin to an exercise, or preparation, or build-up.
Those geniuses who believe that the author of Grant Shapps's tweets (or Shapps himself, if they think he writes them) didn't know that telling a crowd "don't panic" causes them to panic are sweetly amusing... At least that would be one way of putting it.
In reality, nobody at that level of the administration is so stupid as not to understand that well-known fact. It's quite an easy thing for politicians to grasp because when you have contempt for the population you are nine-tenths of the way there.
The same point could be made about toilet paper in 2020. Toilet paper is an emotional subject in Britain because prudish Daily Mail readers think bums are rude (ooh er, missus!), and also because if you have to use something else to do the job then you'll be dealing with bodily waste for a few seconds more than you do normally, the very idea of which gives about half the British population a frisson of delighted disgust - as also does the "surfacing" of bottomwiping into the realm of the social. To look through your net curtains and wonder how your neighbour is wiping his bum is petty bourgeois heaven. Meanwhile you can buy 120 toilet rolls for your own family and think how terrible it is that "some people" do things like that.
My purpose here is not so much to be comical as to point up something about a certain moment of time last year when the army were preparing to deliver supplies (and in some cases actually delivering them) to hospitals and the army were also talking to supermarket companies, including at local level, about food distribution. Such developments were by no means a joke. They were extremely serious and they were preparation for the kind of emergency that would dwarf anything we have seen not since the Three-Day Week and its far less severe successor the Winter of Discontent but since WW2. And at the said moment of time, about half the population were obediently wondering whether they'd have to wipe their bums with newspaper or in their shower with their hands. Hats off to the nudge unit. Attention was mostly directed away from the other shelves in the supermarkets.
The alternative explanation for the current whipping up of the "panic at the pumps" is that the government plans to solve the problem fast and thereby look good in the VI polls. The problems with this explanation are that the problem is unlikely to be solved fast, and halfway through a parliament who gives a toss about VI polls?
Those who have so planet-helpily reduced their carbon footprint by going all-electric in their homes (as it used to be called) may like to consider what they'll cook on in the event of prolonged power cuts...
0 -
Wot, not skyr?isam said:The cornerstone of any nutritious breakfast
EXCLUSIVE: Keir Starmer is fired up for day three of Labour conference, fuelled by… FISH AND CHEESE
More of this vital journalism on @TimesRadio from 10am live from Brighton
https://twitter.com/mattchorley/status/1442392346889539585?s=210 -
The army gambit probably is to create one day's headline to suggest Johnson is doing something about the fuel crisis.eek said:
Has the army been sent in? The statement is that they will be and that will be may have provisos against it.Scott_xP said:
Read a newspapersquareroot2 said:We havent mobilised the army.
BTW is the same set of soldiers concurrently driving ambulances to deal with that other crisis?0 -
The first thing to do is stop blaming people. Take a line saying "the last few years have been tough and it is understandable that people want to make sure they are secure. The govt gets that and these are the measures we are taking to get us through the next few days as petrol is distributed around the country..."turbotubbs said:
Thats a very good point, but what do you think they could do to reassure at this point?Jonathan said:
The government would be well advised to stop blaming the media or the people and start thinking why people lack confidence and how it might rebuild it.turbotubbs said:
There is no fuel shortage in the country. There is a (hopefully temporary) shortage at the pumps, triggered by the media, and then by panic buying. Interesting on the radio just now, the comment that once the 'run' starts, you are being rational to join the panic if you need fuel. This is the argument that @IshmaelZ was running with, and I understand it. I just wish the initial people weren't so selfish.TOPPING said:
Not a question directed at you but good to know.Benpointer said:
Since we retired and with the covid effect, the Mrs P. and I have done about 3,000 miles in total in the past year, across our three cars.TOPPING said:
How many miles a week do you drive?MarqueeMark said:
There is no fuel shortage.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.
A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.
Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
I am interested in the weekly mileage of those shouting loudest about there being no fuel shortage.
The CV19 situation taught us that bad things happen, which the government can't control. That memory is raw and people, rightly or wrongly, are taking responsibility for themselves by creating a local cache.
The government would have been better advised to swing the other way and do things that are reassuring, rather than 'crisis, what crisis'.0 -
Utter tosh.Sandpit said:Another day of some of the most irresponsible journalism of the past two years - and that is really saying something.
There’s a certain section of the media - most of whom live in London, and whose idea of private transport is when the boss gets them an Addison Lee for the day to take them around - who seem to think that it’s justifiable to stoke a run on petrol, which will lead to key workers being unable to work, and as we have seen some minor social disturbances, if it means they can use the crisis they made up to bash the government.
At this point they’re shouting fire in a crowded theatre, and there isn’t a fire except for the one they lit themselves.
You're effectively arguing that the media ought not to report unsupplied service stations.2 -
I just don't think the latter comment is necessarily true. My suspicion is that there is now little or no benefit in monetary terms for doing a degree. Certainly this is my experience, many of my Russell Group friends seem to have either developed various debilitating mental health issues which make them unable to work; carry out low paid work in the education/culture sector; or do unglamorous vocational careers (like myself). There are a few big winners, but they are not the norm. Perhaps I was just a bit unfortunate in my choice of friends.rcs1000 said:
Surely, who pays for something should bear some relation to who benefits from it?darkage said:
You are comparing student loans to a car loan; so it is really a false comparison. Student loans are there to facilitate higher education, which has a wider societal benefit that goes beyond other consumer goods; and for which there are a longstanding principle of access for all based on merit, secured by government intervention in the market.rcs1000 said:
So, between 1.5% and 4.5% for unsecured personal debt, where repayments are automatically paused in the event of unemployment, is a bad deal?darkage said:With regard to student loan repayment issue; it is worth reflecting on how we got in to this mess. Many people on here view the coalition years (2010-2015) as a glorious example of strong and mature government. My view to the contrary is that this was the worst government in living history.
The student loans are nothing but a con. The degree courses people were directed in to going on, at £9k per annum to go on were, in a very, very large number of cases, completely and utterly useless and a waste of 3 years of young peoples lives when they could have been doing something economically productive instead. The con gets worse when one looks at the repayment system. The absolute scandal is the interest rates, they are set at RPI, which is 1.5%, not the actual bank of england interest rate which is 0.1%. The interest rate increases to 4.5% when students start earning any significant salary. It is effectively a system of cynical exploitation of young people.
There is a lot of anger about this, it is the one policy area where it is possible to sympathise with people like Andrea Rayner.
And, don't people who choose to do degrees in Film Studies bear some responsibility for their choices? Or do only you get to choose?
Personally, I have no objection to the principle of paying for higher education. However, the government should not under any circumstances be able to profit from it, as it is now doing, under a system of loans administered by the government through taxation.
And the higher up the education stack you go, the more it is the individual that benefits. Is it so very unreasonable to ask them to contribute?
There is also a problem of opportunity cost, whilst you are doing a degree, you are not earning; nor are you automatically gaining useful skills. So, I don't think there is necessarily a major benefit for individuals. Much of the actual benefit from university expansion is to the universities themselves and the higher education sector. Also to the communities universities are located in; they can play a significant role in regeneration. I am not dismissing this, but it is unfair to then rinse out graduates on average salaries for the rest of their lives to pay for such benefit. Such initiatives should really be funded by general taxation.
I've never objected to fees, I think they are desirable for the reason you point out; but for the majority of courses they should have been limited to £3k per year; which is reasonable for 6 hours a week of lectures for 20 weeks in a year, and access to associated resources (which is what most courses actually are). If someone lived at home (as a lot of people end up doing long after they graduate), this could be largely funded by part time work with no need for much in the way of a loan.
0 -
I'm unsure it is. I talked about he goal of 50% to university, and you talked about tertiary education. These are not, and should not be, the same.Foxy said:
That is pretty much what I said. The problem is not the numbers going, but rather the poor quality of much British Tertiary education, and the emphasis on a partying life away from home.JosiasJessop said:
Except tertiary education != universities. From your link;Foxy said:
Except that sort of figure for Tertiary education is the norm in nearly all competitor economies. It reaches 69% in South Korea. Italy and Germany are the exceptions in the developed world.JosiasJessop said:
And the funding comes down to the idea that 50% of kids need to go to university. IMV that was always an insane target, and has massively skewed expectations, education and the jobs market.RochdalePioneers said:
For all of the flap, the change in tuition fees was a positive step in allowing poorer students access. Instead of fees up front it was hypothecated fees when earning.rcs1000 said:
So, between 1.5% and 4.5% for unsecured personal debt, where repayments are automatically paused in the event of unemployment, is a bad deal?darkage said:With regard to student loan repayment issue; it is worth reflecting on how we got in to this mess. Many people on here view the coalition years (2010-2015) as a glorious example of strong and mature government. My view to the contrary is that this was the worst government in living history.
The student loans are nothing but a con. The degree courses people were directed in to going on, at £9k per annum to go on were, in a very, very large number of cases, completely and utterly useless and a waste of 3 years of young peoples lives when they could have been doing something economically productive instead. The con gets worse when one looks at the repayment system. The absolute scandal is the interest rates, they are set at RPI, which is 1.5%, not the actual bank of england interest rate which is 0.1%. The interest rate increases to 4.5% when students start earning any significant salary. It is effectively a system of cynical exploitation of young people.
There is a lot of anger about this, it is the one policy area where it is possible to sympathise with people like Andrea Rayner.
And, don't people who choose to do degrees in Film Studies bear some responsibility for their choices? Or do only you get to choose?
The issue was funding for universities. With the government contribution to uni teaching cut by 78%, we've seen institutions both get it in the neck for charging the "maximum" £9k a year and offering poor tuition due to a lack of money.
Anyway, think what these £9k fees are. Instead of the government handing money to the universities, it hands it to student loans who pay it to universities. We know that in this era of bankism debt is an asset. How much "asset" was added to bank balance sheets in this way? a very quiet way to keep injecting cash into a broken banking system.
IMV everything else leads on from that.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_education_attainment
Maybe Britons are thicker than other nations, but that doesn't bode well for the future.
The problem perhaps is more the poor quality of many courses, particularly in terms of contact time with students, so little value added.
I think that the cost of Tertiary education is quite inflated in Britain by two factors: Universities use undergraduate fees to subsidise other things, and second that British students want to live a good lifestyle away from home. Few go to nearby Universities. The student loan system barely covers rent, and not even close to that in London and a number of other cities.
" The World Bank, for example, defines tertiary education as including universities as well as institutions that teach specific capacities of higher learning such as colleges, technical training institutes, community colleges, nursing schools, research laboratories, centers of excellence, and distance learning centers."
That's where we're going wrong. Universities are just one strand of tertiary education, and yet they've grown to dominate. We'd be much better sorted with other types as well, in particular on-job training.
We need plumbers. I see no need for plumbers to go to university; they'd be much better served with an apprenticeship and then a C&G. We have too much university, and not enough apprenticeships and other further education.3 -
If the Government are going to charge students a commercial level of interest on their debt, then they should offer them commercial terms - including the opportunity to refinance, overpay, underpay, wrap it into a mortgage, take a payment holiday etc.
At present, the Government is trying to have it both ways: it's effectively a compulsory tax of 9% above c.£27k a year - with penalties for early repayment - *and* they are charging commercial interest on it.2 -
Which is an interesting point. I assue you're going about your life humming contentedly and every time someone mentions the fuel crisis you look wise like Gandalf smoking a pipe and note that you just plug in at home/workFoxy said:
I have an electric car...kinabalu said:Not to be smug or complacent but I have a full tank. Couldn't be fuller.
Will get people thinking. There are different kinds of range anxiety, afterall. 0 -
Good morningMattW said:
If there are no implications, I would decide on Wednesday :-) . It may have eased by then.OldKingCole said:Good morning everybody. I wonder what the PB brains trust would advise. Mrs C and I are on holiday some 350 miles from home. We have, thanks to topping up when we arrived last Thursday, more than enough fuel to get home.
However, part of the plans for the holiday include a week-long visit to N Wales, starting on Thursday, adding a further 275 or so miles to our trip.
I am beginning to wonder; should we call off the N Wales leg?
On reflection, wasn't @Big_G_NorthWales saying that his boss only drives 165 miles a year?
So go via Llandudno with a piece of hose, and no one will notice your crime for weeks
Indeed my dear lady wife did 165 miles all last year
My family has not had a problem getting fuel though there have been queues
I have watched both the BBC and Sky this morning reporting from filling stations and in both cases the supply was not an issue and the queues were less
Indeed the message from the owners was we have supply and do not panic buy
Furthermore Sky are reporting the head of the petrol retailers association has said that the whistle blower who revealed fuel shortages, sparking panic buying was 'completely and utterly irresponsible'
Please @OldKingCole come to beautiful North Wales and maybe even pop into Llandudno and enjoy the promenade and shopping areas
2 -
The point being the issue is not that the country is running out of fuel, but there is an issue getting the reserves to the pumps. You may think I am making a silly point, but this issue would not have arisen without the media stoking the fire, in my view, quite deliberately. I mean the bbc sending our 'Phil McCann' for gods sake?TOPPING said:
Yes as I said, it is entirely rational to join the "panic buying", cf Northern Rock.turbotubbs said:
There is no fuel shortage in the country. There is a (hopefully temporary) shortage at the pumps, triggered by the media, and then by panic buying. Interesting on the radio just now, the comment that once the 'run' starts, you are being rational to join the panic if you need fuel. This is the argument that @IshmaelZ was running with, and I understand it. I just wish the initial people weren't so selfish.TOPPING said:
Not a question directed at you but good to know.Benpointer said:
Since we retired and with the covid effect, the Mrs P. and I have done about 3,000 miles in total in the past year, across our three cars.TOPPING said:
How many miles a week do you drive?MarqueeMark said:
There is no fuel shortage.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.
A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.
Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
I am interested in the weekly mileage of those shouting loudest about there being no fuel shortage.
But I am also loving your no shortage "in the country" vs shortage "at the pumps".
Where, if I may be so bold, and appreciating that several of my friends are sticking red diesel from the farm in their cars, do you buy petrol if not "at the pumps"?1 -
I think it was utterly disgraceful that they reported that a few petrol stations had been closed due to something that had been going on for weeks.Nigelb said:
Utter tosh.Sandpit said:Another day of some of the most irresponsible journalism of the past two years - and that is really saying something.
There’s a certain section of the media - most of whom live in London, and whose idea of private transport is when the boss gets them an Addison Lee for the day to take them around - who seem to think that it’s justifiable to stoke a run on petrol, which will lead to key workers being unable to work, and as we have seen some minor social disturbances, if it means they can use the crisis they made up to bash the government.
At this point they’re shouting fire in a crowded theatre, and there isn’t a fire except for the one they lit themselves.
You're effectively arguing that the media ought not to report unsupplied service stations.
We have freedom of speech. We don't have the right to shout fire in a crowded room.4 -
The years when I did 80,000 are long behind me....TOPPING said:
How many miles a week do you drive?MarqueeMark said:
There is no fuel shortage.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.
A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.
Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".0 -
No, because for all its faults later on, the first term of the Blair government got back to it's usual competence. The current situation is that the Johnson regime is demonstrating its usual incompetence, lack of planning and winging it.Philip_Thompson said:
And then in three days time when the stations have been refuelled and there is no issue anymore as all the idiots have full tanks and all the stations are working ... What do you do then other than clean the egg off your face.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
The 2000 fuel crisis only lasted weeks because stations were NOT being refilled. They are today. Even then despite weeks of disruption, the 2001 election wasn't exactly fortuitous for the Opposition now was it?0 -
It's not entirely rational unless you need the fuel. And if you need the fuel, you'd have been filling up anyway so won't be changing the demand.TOPPING said:
Yes as I said, it is entirely rational to join the "panic buying", cf Northern Rock.turbotubbs said:
There is no fuel shortage in the country. There is a (hopefully temporary) shortage at the pumps, triggered by the media, and then by panic buying. Interesting on the radio just now, the comment that once the 'run' starts, you are being rational to join the panic if you need fuel. This is the argument that @IshmaelZ was running with, and I understand it. I just wish the initial people weren't so selfish.TOPPING said:
Not a question directed at you but good to know.Benpointer said:
Since we retired and with the covid effect, the Mrs P. and I have done about 3,000 miles in total in the past year, across our three cars.TOPPING said:
How many miles a week do you drive?MarqueeMark said:
There is no fuel shortage.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.
A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.
Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
I am interested in the weekly mileage of those shouting loudest about there being no fuel shortage.
But I am also loving your no shortage "in the country" vs shortage "at the pumps".
Where, if I may be so bold, and appreciating that several of my friends are sticking red diesel from the farm in their cars, do you buy petrol if not "at the pumps"?
People topping up "just in case" for fuel they won't need for another week or two by which time the stations would be full again are not being logical.2 -
Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.MattW said:Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.
There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html
At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark
Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.2 -
They don't normally. It's not uncommon for some stations somewhere in the country not to have a type of fuel or even to be sold out.Nigelb said:
Utter tosh.Sandpit said:Another day of some of the most irresponsible journalism of the past two years - and that is really saying something.
There’s a certain section of the media - most of whom live in London, and whose idea of private transport is when the boss gets them an Addison Lee for the day to take them around - who seem to think that it’s justifiable to stoke a run on petrol, which will lead to key workers being unable to work, and as we have seen some minor social disturbances, if it means they can use the crisis they made up to bash the government.
At this point they’re shouting fire in a crowded theatre, and there isn’t a fire except for the one they lit themselves.
You're effectively arguing that the media ought not to report unsupplied service stations.
But that doesn't suit an agenda normally so it isn't commented upon when it happens.0 -
Interestingly on the constituency first vote the CDU/CSU are actually ahead on 143 constituencies to 121 for the SPD with almost all results in.tlg86 said:
According to Wiki, they are comfortably over the threshold with 402 seats (368 needed for a majority):DavidL said:
Does that mean that SDP/CDU is short of a majority or does the "wasted" votes on those who didn't reach the threshold get them over the line?tlg86 said:Combined share of the SPD and Union over the last six elections...
2002 - 77.0%
2005 - 69.4%
2009 - 56.8%
2013 - 67.2%
2017 - 53.4%
2021 - 49.8%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_German_federal_election#Preliminary_results
I never thought it had much of a chance, but worth noting that SPD + Green + Die Linke = 363, leaving it five short of a majority.
The media are calling the Greens kingmakers. I actually think it's the FDP that will decide the outcome.
So if Germany had FPTP the Union would be ahead on seats and Laschet would be chancellor.
It is the 105 list seats the SPD have won to just 53 for the CDU that will likely make Scholz chancellor.
As far as I can see this will be the first German election since 1969 where the party which won most constituencies did not win most seats overall.
Then it was the Union which won most seats overall despite the SPD winning most constituencies but SPD leader Brandt became chancellor nonetheless in a deal with the FDP unlike it seems Laschet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_German_federal_election#Preliminary_results0 -
ONS:
People who had received one or two doses of a coronavirus vaccine were less likely to test positive for coronavirus (COVID-19) in the fortnight ending 11 September 2021.
People living in a household of three or more occupants were more likely to test positive for COVID-19 in the fortnight ending 11 September 2021.
Those in younger age groups were more likely to test positive for COVID-19 in the fortnight ending 11 September 2021.
People who never wore a face covering in enclosed spaces were more likely to test positive for COVID-19 in the fortnight ending 11 September 2021.
Those who reported socially distanced contact with 11 or more people aged 18 to 69 years outside their household were more likely to test positive for COVID-19, in the fortnight ending 11 September 2021.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveytechnicalarticle/analysisofpopulationsintheukbyriskoftestingpositiveforcovid19september20210 -
Is that the same Petrol Retailers Association that has "warned that as many as two-thirds of its membership of nearly 5,500 independent outlets are out of fuel, with the rest of them 'partly dry and running out soon'"?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Good morningMattW said:
If there are no implications, I would decide on Wednesday :-) . It may have eased by then.OldKingCole said:Good morning everybody. I wonder what the PB brains trust would advise. Mrs C and I are on holiday some 350 miles from home. We have, thanks to topping up when we arrived last Thursday, more than enough fuel to get home.
However, part of the plans for the holiday include a week-long visit to N Wales, starting on Thursday, adding a further 275 or so miles to our trip.
I am beginning to wonder; should we call off the N Wales leg?
On reflection, wasn't @Big_G_NorthWales saying that his boss only drives 165 miles a year?
So go via Llandudno with a piece of hose, and no one will notice your crime for weeks
Indeed my dear lady wife did 165 miles all last year
My family has not had a problem getting fuel though there have been queues
I have watched both the BBC and Sky this morning reporting from filling stations and in both cases the supply was not an issue and the queues were less
Indeed the message from the owners was we have supply and do not panic buy
Furthermore Sky are reporting the head of the petrol retailers association has said that the whistle blower who revealed fuel shortages, sparking panic buying was 'completely and utterly irresponsible'
Please @OldKingCole come to beautiful North Wales and maybe even pop into Llandudno and enjoy the promenade and shopping areas
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-587016200 -
Wouldn't need an HGV licence for the ambulances.FF43 said:
The army gambit probably is to create one day's headline to suggest Johnson is doing something about the fuel crisis.eek said:
Has the army been sent in? The statement is that they will be and that will be may have provisos against it.Scott_xP said:
Read a newspapersquareroot2 said:We havent mobilised the army.
BTW is the same set of soldiers concurrently driving ambulances to deal with that other crisis?
I do wonder though if the squaddies are happy with being the dogsbody of last resort, rather than training for their day job.0 -
Good morning PB.
Tory Scum GIN checking in for duty!
7 -
Yes. Most people only have a 1-2 vehicles, and only a minority will try and fill jerry cans on top (5%? 10%?). Once their tanks are full, then what?TOPPING said:Interesting re fuel. Yesterday on a trip I would say that approx 80% of petrol stations on the midlands stretch of the A1 were cordoned off no fuel.
So what should people do - wait for it to blow over (3-10 days?) and carry on as normal or go seek petrol now because if they have six days of fuel left they are at significant risk.
There's a limit to how much fuel can be panic bought, particularly since travel is only at 90% of pre-Covid levels and others will be conservative in their travel, so although demand has surged over the last few days - as future demand has been brought forward - it will naturally tail-off this week.0 -
Mr. Sandpit, a blind fixation on 'green' things and consideration of coal and gas as sinful has plagued governments of all colours.0
-
I imagine they migh be happier doing this than trying to sort evacuees from terrorists on the gat at Kabul airport tbh.Foxy said:
Wouldn't need an HGV licence for the ambulances.FF43 said:
The army gambit probably is to create one day's headline to suggest Johnson is doing something about the fuel crisis.eek said:
Has the army been sent in? The statement is that they will be and that will be may have provisos against it.Scott_xP said:
Read a newspapersquareroot2 said:We havent mobilised the army.
BTW is the same set of soldiers concurrently driving ambulances to deal with that other crisis?
I do wonder though if the squaddies are happy with being the dogsbody of last resort, rather than training for their day job.0 -
Sky business confirming Rolls Royce have built all the engines for the the UK nucleur submarine fleet going back 60 years and will benefit from AUKUS agreement1
-
Indeed.Philip_Thompson said:
They don't normally. It's not uncommon for some stations somewhere in the country not to have a type of fuel or even to be sold out.Nigelb said:
Utter tosh.Sandpit said:Another day of some of the most irresponsible journalism of the past two years - and that is really saying something.
There’s a certain section of the media - most of whom live in London, and whose idea of private transport is when the boss gets them an Addison Lee for the day to take them around - who seem to think that it’s justifiable to stoke a run on petrol, which will lead to key workers being unable to work, and as we have seen some minor social disturbances, if it means they can use the crisis they made up to bash the government.
At this point they’re shouting fire in a crowded theatre, and there isn’t a fire except for the one they lit themselves.
You're effectively arguing that the media ought not to report unsupplied service stations.
But that doesn't suit an agenda normally so it isn't commented upon when it happens.
@Sandpit - Your only error is to blame evil wicked journalists with an anti-government "agenda". They were visibly egged on by the DfT.0 -
What the hell still runs on that stuff, ‘80s historics and drag racers?Dura_Ace said:
You can get drums of oxygenated 110RON race fuel delivered from various web sites. It is at least 4 quid/litre though!TOPPING said:
Yes as I said, it is entirely rational to join the "panic buying", cf Northern Rock.turbotubbs said:
There is no fuel shortage in the country. There is a (hopefully temporary) shortage at the pumps, triggered by the media, and then by panic buying. Interesting on the radio just now, the comment that once the 'run' starts, you are being rational to join the panic if you need fuel. This is the argument that @IshmaelZ was running with, and I understand it. I just wish the initial people weren't so selfish.TOPPING said:
Not a question directed at you but good to know.Benpointer said:
Since we retired and with the covid effect, the Mrs P. and I have done about 3,000 miles in total in the past year, across our three cars.TOPPING said:
How many miles a week do you drive?MarqueeMark said:
There is no fuel shortage.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.
A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.
Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
I am interested in the weekly mileage of those shouting loudest about there being no fuel shortage.
But I am also loving your no shortage "in the country" vs shortage "at the pumps".
Where, if I may be so bold, and appreciating that several of my friends are sticking red diesel from the farm in their cars, do you buy petrol if not "at the pumps"?
https://aaoil.co.uk/product/sunoco-260gt-plus-109ron-99mon-4-8-oxygen/
The ECU and shitty narrow band lambda sensors on your average shitbox won't be able to keep the combustion stoich though so order with caution.
Even F1 has been on pretty much standard Super 98 for more than a decade, after the fuel wars of the ‘90s led to all sorts of horrible potions being used as fuel.0 -
Yeah, they should just get on and trash the planet - who cares?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Sandpit, a blind fixation on 'green' things and consideration of coal and gas as sinful has plagued governments of all colours.
0 -
Never been in the army, but I've always wondered what a soldier does for his job, outside of his initial training? I live on Salisbury Plain so am surrounded by the military, and for sure there are training exercises a lot of the time. But surely a soldier doesn't do 38 hours a week of training to fight, week in, week out do they? Or am I exposing my ignorance?Foxy said:
Wouldn't need an HGV licence for the ambulances.FF43 said:
The army gambit probably is to create one day's headline to suggest Johnson is doing something about the fuel crisis.eek said:
Has the army been sent in? The statement is that they will be and that will be may have provisos against it.Scott_xP said:
Read a newspapersquareroot2 said:We havent mobilised the army.
BTW is the same set of soldiers concurrently driving ambulances to deal with that other crisis?
I do wonder though if the squaddies are happy with being the dogsbody of last resort, rather than training for their day job.0 -
The only surprise is that Mr Putin is doing it now and didn't start doing it a few years back which makes me wonder if the stories about production issues in Russia a couple of weeks back are true.Sandpit said:
Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.MattW said:Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.
There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html
At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark
Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.0 -
There remains a hardcore absolutist mindset on both sides.WhisperingOracle said:
Yes, this inaccurate conflation of driver with supply shortages in the EU is being repeated across the media, including even on the BBC, and really should have been knocked on the head by now. This is exactly the kind of role Starmer could have been taking, and marrying with a line about "incompetent handling of Brexit", if he hadn't hamstrung himself by backing rather than abstaining on the deal. In a vacuum, myths persist.RochdalePioneers said:
I keep reading bollocks like this. Which compares and contrasts from the non-shortages being reported across the EEA.MarqueeMark said:
There is no fuel shortage.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.
A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.
Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
The cat is now out of the bag. We need them more than they need us. I agree that shouting abuse won't work. Neither frankly will "we did tell you". But "this is a Brexit issue" will sink in until all bar the most obstinate accept that the method our departure has been sub-optimal.
None of these issues are a result of having left the EU. They are a result of having left the EEA and CU with no idea how stuff works or a plan of what to do next. We aren't going to rejoin. But we may reconnect all of the parallel aligned ports that we arbitrarily chose to sever.
Brexit is immaculate, please don't blame this (Brexit) crisis on Brexit, its the fault of that truck guy who is a remoaner. And they have a shortage of drivers in Germany so there.
Or
Brexit is a catastrofuck, you must have been stupid to vote for it, and when you can't heat your house or put Christmas dinner on the table I will be there to shout abuse at you. And then you will vote Labour.
It is the *application* of Brexit that is our problem. We quit the energy market and allowed our gas monopoly to cut its losses on gas storage and then wonder why we're at the mercy of spot prices like the advice we ignored warned us we would be. We imprison an airfield full of forrin truckers over Christmas with no food or toilets and then wonder why having told them to fuck off they have fucked off. We demand 3rd party status where we have to do customs and standards checks then wonder why its expensive and slow to import stuff and why our EU customers have switched to someone else.
It can all be fixed when there is the will to fix it. For now both sets of absolutists are enjoying the chaos. As Transport Secretary Michael Green said yesterday we are lucky to have Brexit as it allows us to fix the lack of EU drivers by issuing visas for them to come here and work.2 -
We should be fracking like the Americans are: domestic supply and lower prices.Sandpit said:
Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.MattW said:Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.
There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html
At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark
Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.3 -
OT Regarding the German election, is there any other possible outcome beyond an SPD/Green/FDP coalition with Scholz as Chancellor?
Genuine question - I know next to nothing of German politics.0 -
Is it rational or irrational to trust
Michael GreenGrant Shapps and Boris Johnson?0 -
Notwithstanding, they have made that statement this morning seemingly backing up Shapps, who by the way is hopelessBenpointer said:
Is that the same Petrol Retailers Association that has "warned that as many as two-thirds of its membership of nearly 5,500 independent outlets are out of fuel, with the rest of them 'partly dry and running out soon'"?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Good morningMattW said:
If there are no implications, I would decide on Wednesday :-) . It may have eased by then.OldKingCole said:Good morning everybody. I wonder what the PB brains trust would advise. Mrs C and I are on holiday some 350 miles from home. We have, thanks to topping up when we arrived last Thursday, more than enough fuel to get home.
However, part of the plans for the holiday include a week-long visit to N Wales, starting on Thursday, adding a further 275 or so miles to our trip.
I am beginning to wonder; should we call off the N Wales leg?
On reflection, wasn't @Big_G_NorthWales saying that his boss only drives 165 miles a year?
So go via Llandudno with a piece of hose, and no one will notice your crime for weeks
Indeed my dear lady wife did 165 miles all last year
My family has not had a problem getting fuel though there have been queues
I have watched both the BBC and Sky this morning reporting from filling stations and in both cases the supply was not an issue and the queues were less
Indeed the message from the owners was we have supply and do not panic buy
Furthermore Sky are reporting the head of the petrol retailers association has said that the whistle blower who revealed fuel shortages, sparking panic buying was 'completely and utterly irresponsible'
Please @OldKingCole come to beautiful North Wales and maybe even pop into Llandudno and enjoy the promenade and shopping areas
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-587016200 -
How’s about governments get out of the student finance market altogether, and let students argue with a bank manager as to the relative costs and benefits of the course they wish to take, with course and salary data to back it up?Casino_Royale said:If the Government are going to charge students a commercial level of interest on their debt, then they should offer them commercial terms - including the opportunity to refinance, overpay, underpay, wrap it into a mortgage, take a payment holiday etc.
At present, the Government is trying to have it both ways: it's effectively a compulsory tax of 9% above c.£27k a year - with penalties for early repayment - *and* they are charging commercial interest on it.0 -
Yes, off to the IoW this week to sort out my MiL's funeral and affairs. Glad that we are not going in my Fiat 500, but rather the e-niro. It does 270 miles on a charge, and the IoW is about 175 door to door, so plenty of spareSelebian said:
Which is an interesting point. I assue you're going about your life humming contentedly and every time someone mentions the fuel crisis you look wise like Gandalf smoking a pipe and note that you just plug in at home/workFoxy said:
I have an electric car...kinabalu said:Not to be smug or complacent but I have a full tank. Couldn't be fuller.
Will get people thinking. There are different kinds of range anxiety, afterall.
Fine until the power cuts start anyway! At least the wind is blowing again.2 -
Indeed and it shows by your dismissal of those people who still do need to drive trying to get the fuel to do so.MarqueeMark said:
The years when I did 80,000 are long behind me....TOPPING said:
How many miles a week do you drive?MarqueeMark said:
There is no fuel shortage.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.
A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.
Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".0 -
I imagine that every independent has increased prices as much as they can and are happy to encourage panic buying for the extra profits.Benpointer said:
Is that the same Petrol Retailers Association that has "warned that as many as two-thirds of its membership of nearly 5,500 independent outlets are out of fuel, with the rest of them 'partly dry and running out soon'"?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Good morningMattW said:
If there are no implications, I would decide on Wednesday :-) . It may have eased by then.OldKingCole said:Good morning everybody. I wonder what the PB brains trust would advise. Mrs C and I are on holiday some 350 miles from home. We have, thanks to topping up when we arrived last Thursday, more than enough fuel to get home.
However, part of the plans for the holiday include a week-long visit to N Wales, starting on Thursday, adding a further 275 or so miles to our trip.
I am beginning to wonder; should we call off the N Wales leg?
On reflection, wasn't @Big_G_NorthWales saying that his boss only drives 165 miles a year?
So go via Llandudno with a piece of hose, and no one will notice your crime for weeks
Indeed my dear lady wife did 165 miles all last year
My family has not had a problem getting fuel though there have been queues
I have watched both the BBC and Sky this morning reporting from filling stations and in both cases the supply was not an issue and the queues were less
Indeed the message from the owners was we have supply and do not panic buy
Furthermore Sky are reporting the head of the petrol retailers association has said that the whistle blower who revealed fuel shortages, sparking panic buying was 'completely and utterly irresponsible'
Please @OldKingCole come to beautiful North Wales and maybe even pop into Llandudno and enjoy the promenade and shopping areas
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620
Given the low margins they work on it should be a nice wealth transfer to them from fuckwits.2 -
... but not in any Tory MPs back-yard obvs.Fishing said:
We should be fracking like the Americans are: domestic supply and lower prices.Sandpit said:
Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.MattW said:Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.
There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html
At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark
Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.1 -
Strange isn't it that a 'Newspaper' like the Express which makes no pretence at being other than a propaganda sheet should break such an elementary rule. Maybe propagandists are suffering recruitment problems like the rest of the country or perhaps they're all working for the Telegraph.Farooq said:
I saw that headline in the newsagent this morning, and thought it was a monumental own-goal. Putting "blame" and "Brexit" on a huge headline in the middle of a... shall we call it a distribution crisis?... looks like self trolling.Scott_xP said:
The taboo is breaking.TimS said:I sort of agree, but sort of don't. This one won't do it, but given the taboo surrounding even uttering the word Brexit despite most of the visions of project fear unfolding before our eyes there needs to be some kind of electoral protest party out there to keep pressure on the opposition.
The Express headline today is "Don't blame Brexit" and I think IDS penned a Telegraph column with the same line
Pathetic whiny pleading from the architects suggests that they think people are in fact joining the dots...
Ok, I'm sure the article will set out some arguments, but almost everyone who goes to the papers section isn't buying the Express, so the headline is all they'll see.2 -
Shapps retains his post not because of competence, but rather his willingness to defend the indefensible on camera. Today's job is to piss on the public and tell them that it is just a bit of rain.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Notwithstanding, they have made that statement this morning seemingly backing up Shapps, who by the way is hopelessBenpointer said:
Is that the same Petrol Retailers Association that has "warned that as many as two-thirds of its membership of nearly 5,500 independent outlets are out of fuel, with the rest of them 'partly dry and running out soon'"?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Good morningMattW said:
If there are no implications, I would decide on Wednesday :-) . It may have eased by then.OldKingCole said:Good morning everybody. I wonder what the PB brains trust would advise. Mrs C and I are on holiday some 350 miles from home. We have, thanks to topping up when we arrived last Thursday, more than enough fuel to get home.
However, part of the plans for the holiday include a week-long visit to N Wales, starting on Thursday, adding a further 275 or so miles to our trip.
I am beginning to wonder; should we call off the N Wales leg?
On reflection, wasn't @Big_G_NorthWales saying that his boss only drives 165 miles a year?
So go via Llandudno with a piece of hose, and no one will notice your crime for weeks
Indeed my dear lady wife did 165 miles all last year
My family has not had a problem getting fuel though there have been queues
I have watched both the BBC and Sky this morning reporting from filling stations and in both cases the supply was not an issue and the queues were less
Indeed the message from the owners was we have supply and do not panic buy
Furthermore Sky are reporting the head of the petrol retailers association has said that the whistle blower who revealed fuel shortages, sparking panic buying was 'completely and utterly irresponsible'
Please @OldKingCole come to beautiful North Wales and maybe even pop into Llandudno and enjoy the promenade and shopping areas
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-587016200 -
The government bowed to pressure from the Green lobby and was reluctant to be seen to committing ourselves to hydrocarbon dependency going forward. Which would be fine, except that we do have that dependency and it is aggravating an international problem in this country. Unless and until we have adequate alternative supplies and storage capacity we need to improve the storage of gas in this country. It is just mad not to.Sandpit said:
Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.MattW said:Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.
There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html
At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark
Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.3 -
Well first of all we have no idea about the motives or fuel tank levels of the people buying or trying to buy fuel now. All we know is that there are queues. It is entirely rational for people who fear for their supply of necessary fuel to try to buy it, to queue to buy it, or to drive around trying to find it to buy.Philip_Thompson said:
It's not entirely rational unless you need the fuel. And if you need the fuel, you'd have been filling up anyway so won't be changing the demand.TOPPING said:
Yes as I said, it is entirely rational to join the "panic buying", cf Northern Rock.turbotubbs said:
There is no fuel shortage in the country. There is a (hopefully temporary) shortage at the pumps, triggered by the media, and then by panic buying. Interesting on the radio just now, the comment that once the 'run' starts, you are being rational to join the panic if you need fuel. This is the argument that @IshmaelZ was running with, and I understand it. I just wish the initial people weren't so selfish.TOPPING said:
Not a question directed at you but good to know.Benpointer said:
Since we retired and with the covid effect, the Mrs P. and I have done about 3,000 miles in total in the past year, across our three cars.TOPPING said:
How many miles a week do you drive?MarqueeMark said:
There is no fuel shortage.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.
A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.
Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
I am interested in the weekly mileage of those shouting loudest about there being no fuel shortage.
But I am also loving your no shortage "in the country" vs shortage "at the pumps".
Where, if I may be so bold, and appreciating that several of my friends are sticking red diesel from the farm in their cars, do you buy petrol if not "at the pumps"?
People topping up "just in case" for fuel they won't need for another week or two by which time the stations would be full again are not being logical.
Because you might not need the fuel today but, as per a couple of PB posters on here, they have a couple of days supply only and they need to make a call as to whether to try to find some now (with a fuller tank so they can drive around trying to find it) or to wait and hope that the crisis will be over by, in one case, this coming Wednesday.
It is of course also entirely rational for PBers who don't drive to determine that all these people trying buy fuel are irrational "panickers".
How many miles a week do you drive, Philip?0 -
I see it is still being asked of Labour politicians at their conference this morning with both Rachel Reeves and Sadig Khan put on the spot and apparently Starmer avoiding the journalistsGIN1138 said:Good morning PB.
Tory Scum GIN checking in for duty!
They have announced they will abolish business rates but have not said how they are to recoup the 30 billion lost revenue2 -
We regulate the energy market. So we could have instructed Centrica to stop whining about the cost of storage. Especially when the government's own report on post-Brexit energy said that if we quit the EU energy market we will be reliant on storage to mitigate against spot prices.Sandpit said:
Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.MattW said:Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.
There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html
At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark
Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.
Once again they either didn't read the report, or understand the report, or care, or a combination of all of them. And yet people support Beaker because Kermit the Frog.
Come on Labour. I know we drifted apart. But is this shithousery redux conference the best you can do?0 -
Hill climbs, time attack. Anything where there isn't a spec. fuel or where there is a spec. fuel but the testing is lax.Sandpit said:
What the hell still runs on that stuff, ‘80s historics and drag racers?Dura_Ace said:
You can get drums of oxygenated 110RON race fuel delivered from various web sites. It is at least 4 quid/litre though!TOPPING said:
Yes as I said, it is entirely rational to join the "panic buying", cf Northern Rock.turbotubbs said:
There is no fuel shortage in the country. There is a (hopefully temporary) shortage at the pumps, triggered by the media, and then by panic buying. Interesting on the radio just now, the comment that once the 'run' starts, you are being rational to join the panic if you need fuel. This is the argument that @IshmaelZ was running with, and I understand it. I just wish the initial people weren't so selfish.TOPPING said:
Not a question directed at you but good to know.Benpointer said:
Since we retired and with the covid effect, the Mrs P. and I have done about 3,000 miles in total in the past year, across our three cars.TOPPING said:
How many miles a week do you drive?MarqueeMark said:
There is no fuel shortage.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.
A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.
Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
I am interested in the weekly mileage of those shouting loudest about there being no fuel shortage.
But I am also loving your no shortage "in the country" vs shortage "at the pumps".
Where, if I may be so bold, and appreciating that several of my friends are sticking red diesel from the farm in their cars, do you buy petrol if not "at the pumps"?
https://aaoil.co.uk/product/sunoco-260gt-plus-109ron-99mon-4-8-oxygen/
The ECU and shitty narrow band lambda sensors on your average shitbox won't be able to keep the combustion stoich though so order with caution.
It's good on turbo motors that run a lot of boost and a lot of ignition advance.
I got beat in a time attack by an Evo V RS with a 2.2 stroker 4G63 running on that stuff. The wild eyed driver reckoned it was putting down 700+whp. He had the look of somebody who was never going to blink again.1 -
Change is as good as a rest. I was a prison warder at one point during my career in HMF.Foxy said:
Wouldn't need an HGV licence for the ambulances.FF43 said:
The army gambit probably is to create one day's headline to suggest Johnson is doing something about the fuel crisis.eek said:
Has the army been sent in? The statement is that they will be and that will be may have provisos against it.Scott_xP said:
Read a newspapersquareroot2 said:We havent mobilised the army.
BTW is the same set of soldiers concurrently driving ambulances to deal with that other crisis?
I do wonder though if the squaddies are happy with being the dogsbody of last resort, rather than training for their day job.0 -
You'll be suggesting price-capping next! ;-)another_richard said:
I imagine that every independent has increased prices as much as they can and are happy to encourage panic buying for the extra profits.Benpointer said:
Is that the same Petrol Retailers Association that has "warned that as many as two-thirds of its membership of nearly 5,500 independent outlets are out of fuel, with the rest of them 'partly dry and running out soon'"?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Good morningMattW said:
If there are no implications, I would decide on Wednesday :-) . It may have eased by then.OldKingCole said:Good morning everybody. I wonder what the PB brains trust would advise. Mrs C and I are on holiday some 350 miles from home. We have, thanks to topping up when we arrived last Thursday, more than enough fuel to get home.
However, part of the plans for the holiday include a week-long visit to N Wales, starting on Thursday, adding a further 275 or so miles to our trip.
I am beginning to wonder; should we call off the N Wales leg?
On reflection, wasn't @Big_G_NorthWales saying that his boss only drives 165 miles a year?
So go via Llandudno with a piece of hose, and no one will notice your crime for weeks
Indeed my dear lady wife did 165 miles all last year
My family has not had a problem getting fuel though there have been queues
I have watched both the BBC and Sky this morning reporting from filling stations and in both cases the supply was not an issue and the queues were less
Indeed the message from the owners was we have supply and do not panic buy
Furthermore Sky are reporting the head of the petrol retailers association has said that the whistle blower who revealed fuel shortages, sparking panic buying was 'completely and utterly irresponsible'
Please @OldKingCole come to beautiful North Wales and maybe even pop into Llandudno and enjoy the promenade and shopping areas
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620
Given the low margins they work on it should be a nice wealth transfer to them from fuckwits.0 -
You have to wonder why Shapps bothers. Does he really think he will be rewarded if he loyally defends the party line? He must still harbour political ambition. A Shapps in no10 or no11 perhaps? I doubt his whole political career has been building to this moment.Foxy said:
Shapps retains his post not because of competence, but rather his willingness to defend the indefensible on camera. Today's job is to piss on the public and tell them that it is just a bit of rain.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Notwithstanding, they have made that statement this morning seemingly backing up Shapps, who by the way is hopelessBenpointer said:
Is that the same Petrol Retailers Association that has "warned that as many as two-thirds of its membership of nearly 5,500 independent outlets are out of fuel, with the rest of them 'partly dry and running out soon'"?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Good morningMattW said:
If there are no implications, I would decide on Wednesday :-) . It may have eased by then.OldKingCole said:Good morning everybody. I wonder what the PB brains trust would advise. Mrs C and I are on holiday some 350 miles from home. We have, thanks to topping up when we arrived last Thursday, more than enough fuel to get home.
However, part of the plans for the holiday include a week-long visit to N Wales, starting on Thursday, adding a further 275 or so miles to our trip.
I am beginning to wonder; should we call off the N Wales leg?
On reflection, wasn't @Big_G_NorthWales saying that his boss only drives 165 miles a year?
So go via Llandudno with a piece of hose, and no one will notice your crime for weeks
Indeed my dear lady wife did 165 miles all last year
My family has not had a problem getting fuel though there have been queues
I have watched both the BBC and Sky this morning reporting from filling stations and in both cases the supply was not an issue and the queues were less
Indeed the message from the owners was we have supply and do not panic buy
Furthermore Sky are reporting the head of the petrol retailers association has said that the whistle blower who revealed fuel shortages, sparking panic buying was 'completely and utterly irresponsible'
Please @OldKingCole come to beautiful North Wales and maybe even pop into Llandudno and enjoy the promenade and shopping areas
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-587016200 -
+1 - the answer should have been we don't need this capacity long term so we would be happy for it to close in 2030....DavidL said:
The government bowed to pressure from the Green lobby and was reluctant to be seen to committing ourselves to hydrocarbon dependency going forward. Which would be fine, except that we do have that dependency and it is aggravating an international problem in this country. Unless and until we have adequate alternative supplies and storage capacity we need to improve the storage of gas in this country. It is just mad not to.Sandpit said:
Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.MattW said:Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.
There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html
At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark
Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.0 -
Absolutely right. And it creates an opening (which nobody will take) to make a coherent argument for a renegotiated EU deal involving regulatory alignment and customs union membership.RochdalePioneers said:
There remains a hardcore absolutist mindset on both sides.WhisperingOracle said:
Yes, this inaccurate conflation of driver with supply shortages in the EU is being repeated across the media, including even on the BBC, and really should have been knocked on the head by now. This is exactly the kind of role Starmer could have been taking, and marrying with a line about "incompetent handling of Brexit", if he hadn't hamstrung himself by backing rather than abstaining on the deal. In a vacuum, myths persist.RochdalePioneers said:
I keep reading bollocks like this. Which compares and contrasts from the non-shortages being reported across the EEA.MarqueeMark said:
There is no fuel shortage.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.
A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.
Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
The cat is now out of the bag. We need them more than they need us. I agree that shouting abuse won't work. Neither frankly will "we did tell you". But "this is a Brexit issue" will sink in until all bar the most obstinate accept that the method our departure has been sub-optimal.
None of these issues are a result of having left the EU. They are a result of having left the EEA and CU with no idea how stuff works or a plan of what to do next. We aren't going to rejoin. But we may reconnect all of the parallel aligned ports that we arbitrarily chose to sever.
Brexit is immaculate, please don't blame this (Brexit) crisis on Brexit, its the fault of that truck guy who is a remoaner. And they have a shortage of drivers in Germany so there.
Or
Brexit is a catastrofuck, you must have been stupid to vote for it, and when you can't heat your house or put Christmas dinner on the table I will be there to shout abuse at you. And then you will vote Labour.
It is the *application* of Brexit that is our problem. We quit the energy market and allowed our gas monopoly to cut its losses on gas storage and then wonder why we're at the mercy of spot prices like the advice we ignored warned us we would be. We imprison an airfield full of forrin truckers over Christmas with no food or toilets and then wonder why having told them to fuck off they have fucked off. We demand 3rd party status where we have to do customs and standards checks then wonder why its expensive and slow to import stuff and why our EU customers have switched to someone else.
It can all be fixed when there is the will to fix it. For now both sets of absolutists are enjoying the chaos. As Transport Secretary Michael Green said yesterday we are lucky to have Brexit as it allows us to fix the lack of EU drivers by issuing visas for them to come here and work.
My sense from polling is that immigration is a much less salient issue than it was, even when the home office seem to be trying to exploit it, no bonfire of regulations has taken place - we are essentially in dynamic alignment anyway - and nobody now believes that a golden era of transformational trade deals with giants like the US or China is round the corner.1 -
Was he sniffing it as well as putting it in the car?Dura_Ace said:
Hill climbs, time attack. Anything where there isn't a spec. fuel or where there is a spec. fuel but the testing is lax.Sandpit said:
What the hell still runs on that stuff, ‘80s historics and drag racers?Dura_Ace said:
You can get drums of oxygenated 110RON race fuel delivered from various web sites. It is at least 4 quid/litre though!TOPPING said:
Yes as I said, it is entirely rational to join the "panic buying", cf Northern Rock.turbotubbs said:
There is no fuel shortage in the country. There is a (hopefully temporary) shortage at the pumps, triggered by the media, and then by panic buying. Interesting on the radio just now, the comment that once the 'run' starts, you are being rational to join the panic if you need fuel. This is the argument that @IshmaelZ was running with, and I understand it. I just wish the initial people weren't so selfish.TOPPING said:
Not a question directed at you but good to know.Benpointer said:
Since we retired and with the covid effect, the Mrs P. and I have done about 3,000 miles in total in the past year, across our three cars.TOPPING said:
How many miles a week do you drive?MarqueeMark said:
There is no fuel shortage.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.
A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.
Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
I am interested in the weekly mileage of those shouting loudest about there being no fuel shortage.
But I am also loving your no shortage "in the country" vs shortage "at the pumps".
Where, if I may be so bold, and appreciating that several of my friends are sticking red diesel from the farm in their cars, do you buy petrol if not "at the pumps"?
https://aaoil.co.uk/product/sunoco-260gt-plus-109ron-99mon-4-8-oxygen/
The ECU and shitty narrow band lambda sensors on your average shitbox won't be able to keep the combustion stoich though so order with caution.
It's good on turbo motors that run a lot of boost and a lot of ignition advance.
I got beat in a time attack by an Evo V RS with a 2.2 stroker 4G63 running on that stuff. The wild eyed driver reckoned it was putting down 700+whp. He had the look of somebody who was never going to blink again.2 -
Government has been happy to outsource our carbon emissions to other countries.DavidL said:
The government bowed to pressure from the Green lobby and was reluctant to be seen to committing ourselves to hydrocarbon dependency going forward. Which would be fine, except that we do have that dependency and it is aggravating an international problem in this country. Unless and until we have adequate alternative supplies and storage capacity we need to improve the storage of gas in this country. It is just mad not to.Sandpit said:
Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.MattW said:Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.
There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html
At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark
Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.1 -
Driving out of Leeds on Saturday an EG garage had prices at £1.45 a litre (but sold out) while the BP garage a mile later was £1.38 and still had people filling upanother_richard said:
I imagine that every independent has increased prices as much as they can and are happy to encourage panic buying for the extra profits.Benpointer said:
Is that the same Petrol Retailers Association that has "warned that as many as two-thirds of its membership of nearly 5,500 independent outlets are out of fuel, with the rest of them 'partly dry and running out soon'"?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Good morningMattW said:
If there are no implications, I would decide on Wednesday :-) . It may have eased by then.OldKingCole said:Good morning everybody. I wonder what the PB brains trust would advise. Mrs C and I are on holiday some 350 miles from home. We have, thanks to topping up when we arrived last Thursday, more than enough fuel to get home.
However, part of the plans for the holiday include a week-long visit to N Wales, starting on Thursday, adding a further 275 or so miles to our trip.
I am beginning to wonder; should we call off the N Wales leg?
On reflection, wasn't @Big_G_NorthWales saying that his boss only drives 165 miles a year?
So go via Llandudno with a piece of hose, and no one will notice your crime for weeks
Indeed my dear lady wife did 165 miles all last year
My family has not had a problem getting fuel though there have been queues
I have watched both the BBC and Sky this morning reporting from filling stations and in both cases the supply was not an issue and the queues were less
Indeed the message from the owners was we have supply and do not panic buy
Furthermore Sky are reporting the head of the petrol retailers association has said that the whistle blower who revealed fuel shortages, sparking panic buying was 'completely and utterly irresponsible'
Please @OldKingCole come to beautiful North Wales and maybe even pop into Llandudno and enjoy the promenade and shopping areas
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620
Given the low margins they work on it should be a nice wealth transfer to them from fuckwits.1 -
How about Sebastian Fox? The nice thing about the Secretary of State for Transport is that he is a walking advert for STV and multi-member constituencies. The idea is that if you dislike Grant Shapps you can go and see Michael Green or Sebastian Fox instead. Its just that he inhabits all three in the same body.Jonathan said:Is it rational or irrational to trust
Michael GreenGrant Shapps and Boris Johnson?
A bit like Jame McAvoy only less kidnappy.0 -
I largely agree with youRochdalePioneers said:
There remains a hardcore absolutist mindset on both sides.WhisperingOracle said:
Yes, this inaccurate conflation of driver with supply shortages in the EU is being repeated across the media, including even on the BBC, and really should have been knocked on the head by now. This is exactly the kind of role Starmer could have been taking, and marrying with a line about "incompetent handling of Brexit", if he hadn't hamstrung himself by backing rather than abstaining on the deal. In a vacuum, myths persist.RochdalePioneers said:
I keep reading bollocks like this. Which compares and contrasts from the non-shortages being reported across the EEA.MarqueeMark said:
There is no fuel shortage.TimS said:
When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.squareroot2 said:
Yawn...Scott_xP said:...
This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.
The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.
There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.
A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.
Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
The cat is now out of the bag. We need them more than they need us. I agree that shouting abuse won't work. Neither frankly will "we did tell you". But "this is a Brexit issue" will sink in until all bar the most obstinate accept that the method our departure has been sub-optimal.
None of these issues are a result of having left the EU. They are a result of having left the EEA and CU with no idea how stuff works or a plan of what to do next. We aren't going to rejoin. But we may reconnect all of the parallel aligned ports that we arbitrarily chose to sever.
Brexit is immaculate, please don't blame this (Brexit) crisis on Brexit, its the fault of that truck guy who is a remoaner. And they have a shortage of drivers in Germany so there.
Or
Brexit is a catastrofuck, you must have been stupid to vote for it, and when you can't heat your house or put Christmas dinner on the table I will be there to shout abuse at you. And then you will vote Labour.
It is the *application* of Brexit that is our problem. We quit the energy market and allowed our gas monopoly to cut its losses on gas storage and then wonder why we're at the mercy of spot prices like the advice we ignored warned us we would be. We imprison an airfield full of forrin truckers over Christmas with no food or toilets and then wonder why having told them to fuck off they have fucked off. We demand 3rd party status where we have to do customs and standards checks then wonder why its expensive and slow to import stuff and why our EU customers have switched to someone else.
It can all be fixed when there is the will to fix it. For now both sets of absolutists are enjoying the chaos. As Transport Secretary Michael Green said yesterday we are lucky to have Brexit as it allows us to fix the lack of EU drivers by issuing visas for them to come here and work.0 -
Mr. Pointer, lights going out in the UK due to performative expressions of virtue while China burns coal galore may make some in the UK feel good about themselves but all they'll achieve in practical turns* is economic flagellation.
The purpose of energy policy is to keep the lights on. The wind not always blowing is something I've pointed out for quite a while. Sufficient capacity must be maintained to keep energy flowing.
Edited extra bit: *terms, even1 -
One of the key benefits of a free market is liquidity- flex in the system to address peaks and troughs in demand. That's so useful that it's overall worth the cost of the dumb stuff that a free market sometimes throws up.RochdalePioneers said:
Plus all the EU vehicles and drivers that used to be an integral part of the UK's logistics network. Arbitrarily banning cabotage because they don't understand it has made a bad situation worse.TOPPING said:Let's revise the numbers again.
Our apparent shortage: 100,000.
Of which,
50,000 residual have had it for years have evidently lived with it.
25,000 fewer tests Covid.
25,000 Brexit we got the foreigners to go home.
And again, there are similar shortages of drivers in parts of Europe. It has not created problems like we have here because of the vast labour pool able to work anywhere and fill in the gaps. We don't have access to that hence the unique to the UK problem.
The current government's current direction has made the GB market less liquid than it used to be. So spikes are more likely to turn into crises. The invisible hand needs some space in which to operate.1 -
This conference is serving a very useful function. Its reminding people why they thought....nah.RochdalePioneers said:
We regulate the energy market. So we could have instructed Centrica to stop whining about the cost of storage. Especially when the government's own report on post-Brexit energy said that if we quit the EU energy market we will be reliant on storage to mitigate against spot prices.Sandpit said:
Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.MattW said:Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.
There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html
At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark
Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.
Once again they either didn't read the report, or understand the report, or care, or a combination of all of them. And yet people support Beaker because Kermit the Frog.
Come on Labour. I know we drifted apart. But is this shithousery redux conference the best you can do?1 -
0
-
I was once and briefly OIC catering at Heron. Being sure to observe the time tested military adage of "Never do a shitty job well" I made sure that I made a complete brexit of it and was rapidly relieved.TOPPING said:
Change is as good as a rest. I was a prison warder at one point during my career in HMF.Foxy said:
Wouldn't need an HGV licence for the ambulances.FF43 said:
The army gambit probably is to create one day's headline to suggest Johnson is doing something about the fuel crisis.eek said:
Has the army been sent in? The statement is that they will be and that will be may have provisos against it.Scott_xP said:
Read a newspapersquareroot2 said:We havent mobilised the army.
BTW is the same set of soldiers concurrently driving ambulances to deal with that other crisis?
I do wonder though if the squaddies are happy with being the dogsbody of last resort, rather than training for their day job.1 -
Yes. I suspect if I'd graduated with £50k of debt 15 years ago I'd want to make modest payments in the early years (I'd probably still have £40k by now) but add it to a (re)mortgage in my late 30s and pay it off at just 1-2% interest over a longer timeframe.Sandpit said:
How’s about governments get out of the student finance market altogether, and let students argue with a bank manager as to the relative costs and benefits of the course they wish to take, with course and salary data to back it up?Casino_Royale said:If the Government are going to charge students a commercial level of interest on their debt, then they should offer them commercial terms - including the opportunity to refinance, overpay, underpay, wrap it into a mortgage, take a payment holiday etc.
At present, the Government is trying to have it both ways: it's effectively a compulsory tax of 9% above c.£27k a year - with penalties for early repayment - *and* they are charging commercial interest on it.
As it was, I graduated with £12k of debt at basic CPI and I'd paid that off in full by the age of 29, which greatly helped with my living costs when I bought my first home (basically, I had £150 extra disposal a month).0 -
Indeed. Wasn't there a time that the Tories opposed Ed Milibands proposed gas price cap as dangerous interference in the market?Stuartinromford said:
One of the key benefits of a free market is liquidity- flex in the system to address peaks and troughs in demand. That's so useful that it's overall worth the cost of the dumb stuff that a free market sometimes throws up.RochdalePioneers said:
Plus all the EU vehicles and drivers that used to be an integral part of the UK's logistics network. Arbitrarily banning cabotage because they don't understand it has made a bad situation worse.TOPPING said:Let's revise the numbers again.
Our apparent shortage: 100,000.
Of which,
50,000 residual have had it for years have evidently lived with it.
25,000 fewer tests Covid.
25,000 Brexit we got the foreigners to go home.
And again, there are similar shortages of drivers in parts of Europe. It has not created problems like we have here because of the vast labour pool able to work anywhere and fill in the gaps. We don't have access to that hence the unique to the UK problem.
The current government's current direction has made the GB market less liquid than it used to be. So spikes are more likely to turn into crises. The invisible hand needs some space in which to operate.0 -
In civvy life, never make a good cup of tea.Dura_Ace said:
I was once and briefly OIC catering at Heron. Being sure to observe the time tested military adage of "Never do a shitty job well" I made sure that I made a complete brexit of it and was rapidly relieved.TOPPING said:
Change is as good as a rest. I was a prison warder at one point during my career in HMF.Foxy said:
Wouldn't need an HGV licence for the ambulances.FF43 said:
The army gambit probably is to create one day's headline to suggest Johnson is doing something about the fuel crisis.eek said:
Has the army been sent in? The statement is that they will be and that will be may have provisos against it.Scott_xP said:
Read a newspapersquareroot2 said:We havent mobilised the army.
BTW is the same set of soldiers concurrently driving ambulances to deal with that other crisis?
I do wonder though if the squaddies are happy with being the dogsbody of last resort, rather than training for their day job.0 -
Dr. Foxy, price caps were stupid then, and they're stupid now.
The PM's an imbecile allergic to not being liked so he tells people any old bullshit he thinks they want to hear, and sprays money up the wall for a single morning's headlines. It's the principle reason he's unfit for the office.0 -
Cuckoo, back in your box looney tunesFishing said:
We should be fracking like the Americans are: domestic supply and lower prices.Sandpit said:
Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.MattW said:Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.
There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html
At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark
Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.0 -
To be fair the initial story appears to have come from a BP briefing to the government and wasn't intended to have been publicised, it was disclosed at a meeting and then leaked to the press. The press liking a "panic" and a "cover-up" immediately went into overdrive. The public have then created a real shortage by going en masse to the petrol stations to fill their tanks.Jonathan said:The governments messaging has been poor. "Don't panic! There is plenty of fuel in depots" is not the greatest message when the issue it is more difficult than usual to get fuel from depots to pumps.
1
This discussion has been closed.