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The front pages that should frighten ministers – politicalbetting.com

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  • Scott_xP said:

    Cabinet source tells me the PM “doesn’t want headlines about Christmas being cancelled”.
    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1441404316636508162

    What a piss weak PM.

    Need someone with balls to take over. Preferably Truss.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 25,994

    eek said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
    So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
    The problem with your argument is that it's not the freeloaders who are falling out.

    Its the greater hassle fuel and coolchain hauliers who have immediate problems because the extra money they pay is now not worth the extra hassle.
    The biggie was when the pay fiesta hit the tanker drivers. I assume that Hoyer et al have responded with their own pay rises so they will recruit drivers back which will fill the gaps. Until the next round of poaching when we go back to shortages again and again.

    Thing is, if you are an ADR driver the country really needs you driving fuel and toxic chemicals, not sofas. "Just pay more" is fine and they will and are. But as you lose and then poach back drivers you have gaps and that means fuel shortages.
    Then maybe don't lose them. Maybe pay them more in the first place and when they hand in their notice, maybe stop and think "oh I'll need to pay even more than this".

    If you keep having pathetically small pay rises under the circumstances then yes that will be a problem. Its a problem you need to fix though not have the state fix it for you.
    38% is "pathetically small"?

    How much should a pay rise be to (a) keep existing drivers and (b) cover any and all possible pay rises by competitors? I've managed a lot of salary budgets and recruited talent where you have to pay to keep them. Never managed a speculative +80% or +180% just in case the rival down the road increases their offer.
    I can remember when Tories (in general) such as PT would have denounced such pay rises as inflationary, holding the country to ransom, etc. etc.

  • eek said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
    So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
    The problem with your argument is that it's not the freeloaders who are falling out.

    Its the greater hassle fuel and coolchain hauliers who have immediate problems because the extra money they pay is now not worth the extra hassle.
    The biggie was when the pay fiesta hit the tanker drivers. I assume that Hoyer et al have responded with their own pay rises so they will recruit drivers back which will fill the gaps. Until the next round of poaching when we go back to shortages again and again.

    Thing is, if you are an ADR driver the country really needs you driving fuel and toxic chemicals, not sofas. "Just pay more" is fine and they will and are. But as you lose and then poach back drivers you have gaps and that means fuel shortages.
    Then maybe don't lose them. Maybe pay them more in the first place and when they hand in their notice, maybe stop and think "oh I'll need to pay even more than this".

    If you keep having pathetically small pay rises under the circumstances then yes that will be a problem. Its a problem you need to fix though not have the state fix it for you.
    38% is "pathetically small"?

    How much should a pay rise be to (a) keep existing drivers and (b) cover any and all possible pay rises by competitors? I've managed a lot of salary budgets and recruited talent where you have to pay to keep them. Never managed a speculative +80% or +180% just in case the rival down the road increases their offer.
    Have a look at the Premier League wage inflation and copy that. Sure it won't cause any problems with knock on cost of living increases for the other 99% who are not lorry drivers.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 6,996
    edited September 2021
    isam said:


    Tory lead with YouGov up to seven points on eve of Labour conference

    CON 39 (n/c)
    LAB 32 (-3)
    LD 10 (+3)
    GREEN 9 (+2)
    REF UK 3 (n/c)

    Number of Con-Lab switchers halved since Labour lead a fortnight ago, fewer 2019 Tories don't know

    One in five Lab voters backing other parties

    In this crisis labour's polling must be of great concern to their supporters

    The question is why

    And on the fuel shortages, as has been commented on here, a few filling stations closed will not impact on the public

    It would have to be widespread across the country and causing huge queues

    The people at war with Sir Keir's Labour, the Corbynites, have gone Green. Is it too simplistic to assume they just come back? They hate him more than they do Tories
    What interests me is that a few may be moving to the LD's, too. As discussed earlier, I think some may be perceiving him as both anti-EU and vaguely illiberal, especially with what will look to a number of people like machine politics on this new voting system issue.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 42,730
    Carnyx said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    Remainers dont like the idea of the oi polloi getting more money
    Please, it's either oi poloi or the poloi, not the oi poloi. Standards at PB are really slipping.
    Rough breathing at the start, so it's hoi. And it needs to be written properly, with the diacritical marks: ὁἱ πολλοί
    Us plebs don't care.
  • Also interesting that policy advisers for government is an eligible occupation, whilst the people who deliver are our food is not. Perhaps given the governments performance we actually do need to import some talent there.
    Would be good to have a flood of cheap Romanian policy advisers, living eight to a caravan in a dirty field round the back of Whitehall. Whatever those guys are getting paid right now, it's too much.
  • Carnyx said:

    Far be it from me to jump on any bandwagon, but I have to say that We have just done a Tesco shop and I am pleased to say that the shelves were looking quite well stocked. I didn't go for diesel though...luckily, there was an enormouse queue!! (West Wales)

    Were they getting ratty about having to wait?
    v good.
  • eek said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
    So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
    The problem with your argument is that it's not the freeloaders who are falling out.

    Its the greater hassle fuel and coolchain hauliers who have immediate problems because the extra money they pay is now not worth the extra hassle.
    The biggie was when the pay fiesta hit the tanker drivers. I assume that Hoyer et al have responded with their own pay rises so they will recruit drivers back which will fill the gaps. Until the next round of poaching when we go back to shortages again and again.

    Thing is, if you are an ADR driver the country really needs you driving fuel and toxic chemicals, not sofas. "Just pay more" is fine and they will and are. But as you lose and then poach back drivers you have gaps and that means fuel shortages.
    Then maybe don't lose them. Maybe pay them more in the first place and when they hand in their notice, maybe stop and think "oh I'll need to pay even more than this".

    If you keep having pathetically small pay rises under the circumstances then yes that will be a problem. Its a problem you need to fix though not have the state fix it for you.
    38% is "pathetically small"?

    How much should a pay rise be to (a) keep existing drivers and (b) cover any and all possible pay rises by competitors? I've managed a lot of salary budgets and recruited talent where you have to pay to keep them. Never managed a speculative +80% or +180% just in case the rival down the road increases their offer.
    If you haven't filled your vacancies then yes it is.

    The benchmark I'm using is I know truckers in the States can be on over $100k per annum. What did your piddly 38% (34% if we exclude the 2.5% inflation only rise) pay rise in the circumstances increase pay upto out of curiosity?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 24,543
    Wow, he said the B word on live TV...

    Haulage boss Rob Hollyman says he has a number of lost drivers as they now fear the Brexit legislations no longer afford them access to the UK.
    https://trib.al/yuvyStI
    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1441403186066206721/video/1
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 25,994

    Scott_xP said:

    Cabinet source tells me the PM “doesn’t want headlines about Christmas being cancelled”.
    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1441404316636508162

    What a piss weak PM.

    Need someone with balls to take over. Preferably Truss.
    Or a Scottish Presbyterian who has the right attitude to Christmas. So much simpler. Though I don't think the English have quite forgiven the last time someone cancelled Christmas.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,466

    Carnyx said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    Remainers dont like the idea of the oi polloi getting more money
    Please, it's either oi poloi or the poloi, not the oi poloi. Standards at PB are really slipping.
    Rough breathing at the start, so it's hoi. And it needs to be written properly, with the diacritical marks: ὁἱ πολλοί
    Well, obviously. I didn't want to be too much of a Remoaner elitist.
    Carnyx said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    Remainers dont like the idea of the oi polloi getting more money
    Please, it's either oi poloi or the poloi, not the oi poloi. Standards at PB are really slipping.
    Rough breathing at the start, so it's hoi. And it needs to be written properly, with the diacritical marks: ὁἱ πολλοί
    Tut, tut, tut. The nominative of the definite article does not have an accent.
    Of course, since Ancient Greek was an ergative-absolutive language, you're talking about the ergative case, not the nominative. An easy mistake to make ;)
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 24,543
    Panic buying at fuel stations suggests that Brexit is helping fulfil the dreams of some to bring us back to 1973
    https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/1441405273260707840
  • eek said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
    So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
    The problem with your argument is that it's not the freeloaders who are falling out.

    Its the greater hassle fuel and coolchain hauliers who have immediate problems because the extra money they pay is now not worth the extra hassle.
    The biggie was when the pay fiesta hit the tanker drivers. I assume that Hoyer et al have responded with their own pay rises so they will recruit drivers back which will fill the gaps. Until the next round of poaching when we go back to shortages again and again.

    Thing is, if you are an ADR driver the country really needs you driving fuel and toxic chemicals, not sofas. "Just pay more" is fine and they will and are. But as you lose and then poach back drivers you have gaps and that means fuel shortages.
    Then maybe don't lose them. Maybe pay them more in the first place and when they hand in their notice, maybe stop and think "oh I'll need to pay even more than this".

    If you keep having pathetically small pay rises under the circumstances then yes that will be a problem. Its a problem you need to fix though not have the state fix it for you.
    38% is "pathetically small"?

    How much should a pay rise be to (a) keep existing drivers and (b) cover any and all possible pay rises by competitors? I've managed a lot of salary budgets and recruited talent where you have to pay to keep them. Never managed a speculative +80% or +180% just in case the rival down the road increases their offer.
    Have a look at the Premier League wage inflation and copy that. Sure it won't cause any problems with knock on cost of living increases for the other 99% who are not lorry drivers.
    Actually even better, have a look at Derby County's finances. Go large or go home.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 42,730

    eek said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
    So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
    The problem with your argument is that it's not the freeloaders who are falling out.

    Its the greater hassle fuel and coolchain hauliers who have immediate problems because the extra money they pay is now not worth the extra hassle.
    The biggie was when the pay fiesta hit the tanker drivers. I assume that Hoyer et al have responded with their own pay rises so they will recruit drivers back which will fill the gaps. Until the next round of poaching when we go back to shortages again and again.

    Thing is, if you are an ADR driver the country really needs you driving fuel and toxic chemicals, not sofas. "Just pay more" is fine and they will and are. But as you lose and then poach back drivers you have gaps and that means fuel shortages.
    Then maybe don't lose them. Maybe pay them more in the first place and when they hand in their notice, maybe stop and think "oh I'll need to pay even more than this".

    If you keep having pathetically small pay rises under the circumstances then yes that will be a problem. Its a problem you need to fix though not have the state fix it for you.
    38% is "pathetically small"?

    ...
    Is Philip actually a union leader ?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 9,347
    Scott_xP said:

    Visa relaxation to avert growing HGV crisis now a highly likely outcome from this afternoon's meeting of cabinet ministers. am told

    All as part of a wider package of measures

    First reported by the FT


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    The central tenet of Brexit abandoned at the first whiff of gunsmoke.

    The BoZo fanbois must be so proud...

    Central tenet of Brexit is no more heading to political union, no more heading to EU army, no more pressure to ultimately join the Euro. You may think it was all about immigration, and for some I am sure that was the case, but it wasn't the central tenet for every leave voter.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,466
    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    Remainers dont like the idea of the oi polloi getting more money
    Please, it's either oi poloi or the poloi, not the oi poloi. Standards at PB are really slipping.
    Rough breathing at the start, so it's hoi. And it needs to be written properly, with the diacritical marks: ὁἱ πολλοί
    Us pleb's don't care.
    FTFY
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 25,994
    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    Remainers dont like the idea of the oi polloi getting more money
    Please, it's either oi poloi or the poloi, not the oi poloi. Standards at PB are really slipping.
    Rough breathing at the start, so it's hoi. And it needs to be written properly, with the diacritical marks: ὁἱ πολλοί
    Us plebs don't care.
    Neither did the patricians, a few pro-Greek enthusiasts aside (obvs v. unsound chaps).
  • Carnyx said:

    Far be it from me to jump on any bandwagon, but I have to say that We have just done a Tesco shop and I am pleased to say that the shelves were looking quite well stocked. I didn't go for diesel though...luckily, there was an enormouse queue!! (West Wales)

    Were they getting ratty about having to wait?
    I managed to squeak past.
  • Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    Remainers dont like the idea of the oi polloi getting more money
    Please, it's either oi poloi or the poloi, not the oi poloi. Standards at PB are really slipping.
    Rough breathing at the start, so it's hoi. And it needs to be written properly, with the diacritical marks: ὁἱ πολλοί
    Well, obviously. I didn't want to be too much of a Remoaner elitist.
    Carnyx said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    Remainers dont like the idea of the oi polloi getting more money
    Please, it's either oi poloi or the poloi, not the oi poloi. Standards at PB are really slipping.
    Rough breathing at the start, so it's hoi. And it needs to be written properly, with the diacritical marks: ὁἱ πολλοί
    Tut, tut, tut. The nominative of the definite article does not have an accent.
    Of course, since Ancient Greek was an ergative-absolutive language, you're talking about the ergative case, not the nominative. An easy mistake to make ;)
    ergative-absolutive? The mind boggles!
  • Also interesting that policy advisers for government is an eligible occupation, whilst the people who deliver are our food is not. Perhaps given the governments performance we actually do need to import some talent there.
    Would be good to have a flood of cheap Romanian policy advisers, living eight to a caravan in a dirty field round the back of Whitehall. Whatever those guys are getting paid right now, it's too much.
    Along the same lines. I'm sure you can find plenty of qualified, talented, and under valued Indian, Mexican, Iranian etc business leaders. Would cut the top FTSE pay packets nicely.

    Better for share holders you see...
  • Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
    So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
    The problem with your argument is that it's not the freeloaders who are falling out.

    Its the greater hassle fuel and coolchain hauliers who have immediate problems because the extra money they pay is now not worth the extra hassle.
    The biggie was when the pay fiesta hit the tanker drivers. I assume that Hoyer et al have responded with their own pay rises so they will recruit drivers back which will fill the gaps. Until the next round of poaching when we go back to shortages again and again.

    Thing is, if you are an ADR driver the country really needs you driving fuel and toxic chemicals, not sofas. "Just pay more" is fine and they will and are. But as you lose and then poach back drivers you have gaps and that means fuel shortages.
    Then maybe don't lose them. Maybe pay them more in the first place and when they hand in their notice, maybe stop and think "oh I'll need to pay even more than this".

    If you keep having pathetically small pay rises under the circumstances then yes that will be a problem. Its a problem you need to fix though not have the state fix it for you.
    38% is "pathetically small"?

    ...
    Is Philip actually a union leader ?
    No need for a union, just pay the market rate.

    As a Liverpool fan I'm entirely content to see Mo Salah paid whatever he asks for because we need him and we can afford him.

    If Hoyer need drivers, then sorry but they need the same attitude.

    Whatever the market rate is, just f***ing pay it already. Stop whinging that pay has gone up from a pathetic amount to 1.1x pathetic.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Visa relaxation to avert growing HGV crisis now a highly likely outcome from this afternoon's meeting of cabinet ministers. am told

    All as part of a wider package of measures

    First reported by the FT


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    The central tenet of Brexit abandoned at the first whiff of gunsmoke.

    The BoZo fanbois must be so proud...

    Central tenet of Brexit is no more heading to political union, no more heading to EU army, no more pressure to ultimately join the Euro. You may think it was all about immigration, and for some I am sure that was the case, but it wasn't the central tenet for every leave voter.
    paper tigers
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 25,994

    Farooq said:

    Carnyx said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    Remainers dont like the idea of the oi polloi getting more money
    Please, it's either oi poloi or the poloi, not the oi poloi. Standards at PB are really slipping.
    Rough breathing at the start, so it's hoi. And it needs to be written properly, with the diacritical marks: ὁἱ πολλοί
    Well, obviously. I didn't want to be too much of a Remoaner elitist.
    Carnyx said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    Remainers dont like the idea of the oi polloi getting more money
    Please, it's either oi poloi or the poloi, not the oi poloi. Standards at PB are really slipping.
    Rough breathing at the start, so it's hoi. And it needs to be written properly, with the diacritical marks: ὁἱ πολλοί
    Tut, tut, tut. The nominative of the definite article does not have an accent.
    Of course, since Ancient Greek was an ergative-absolutive language, you're talking about the ergative case, not the nominative. An easy mistake to make ;)
    ergative-absolutive? The mind boggles!
    It must be Friday afternoon with the sun over the yardarm early.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 24,543
    My bit on shortages, deploying the army, Kermit, Tim Martin, a “fuck economics” type of prime minister … the full cavalcade of delights https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/24/uk-prime-minister-shortage-crisis-boris-johnson-new-york
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 6,996
    edited September 2021
    It does have to be said that immigration figured at the top of all Leave voters' surveys. The vote was around the time of the European migration crisis, and that's what gave Leave the edge and lifted Europe to a position of priority in voters' concerns it had never been. Hence our debate is still frozen to a certain extent in 2015, and Theresa May's red lines the following year that got us into this tricky pickle.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    MaxPB said:

    I see @Casino_Royale has trouble with the word “econometricians”.

    Perhaps he discovered an undercover “woke” cell at HM Treasury or something.

    1½ hours to think about it and (still) no answers, just more ad hominem.

    I rest my case, ladies and gentlemen.
    It must be difficult watching a two decade argument get smashed up in just a few months. The issue here is that the evidence has changed but people are dogmatically sticking to their views.

    Tbh, the evidence from Switzerland has always been pretty clear. Have large barriers at the bottom of the market and very few at that top. Everyone wins that way.
    Perfect

  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,466
    Scott_xP said:

    My bit on shortages, deploying the army, Kermit, Tim Martin, a “fuck economics” type of prime minister … the full cavalcade of delights https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/24/uk-prime-minister-shortage-crisis-boris-johnson-new-york

    this polo-shirted Struwwelpeter, this miscast Green Man, this ghost of cirrhosis future
    She has a way with words
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,910
    isam said:


    Tory lead with YouGov up to seven points on eve of Labour conference

    CON 39 (n/c)
    LAB 32 (-3)
    LD 10 (+3)
    GREEN 9 (+2)
    REF UK 3 (n/c)

    Number of Con-Lab switchers halved since Labour lead a fortnight ago, fewer 2019 Tories don't know

    One in five Lab voters backing other parties

    In this crisis labour's polling must be of great concern to their supporters

    The question is why

    And on the fuel shortages, as has been commented on here, a few filling stations closed will not impact on the public

    It would have to be widespread across the country and causing huge queues

    The people at war with Sir Keir's Labour, the Corbynites, have gone Green. Is it too simplistic to assume they just come back? They hate him more than they do Tories
    We'll have to wait and see, but my instinct is they will do as they have done in the past.

    Funnily enough, this might be mentioned in the Saturday morning article I wrote last night...
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,177
    edited September 2021
    Farooq said:


    Of course, since Ancient Greek was an ergative-absolutive language, you're talking about the ergative case, not the nominative. An easy mistake to make ;)

    No it isn't. Subjects of transitive and intransitive verbs behave identically in Greek; in E-A languages subjects of intransitive verbs behave like objects of transitive ones.

    Not sure how an antiTERF would reword that.
  • Quincel said:

    isam said:


    Tory lead with YouGov up to seven points on eve of Labour conference

    CON 39 (n/c)
    LAB 32 (-3)
    LD 10 (+3)
    GREEN 9 (+2)
    REF UK 3 (n/c)

    Number of Con-Lab switchers halved since Labour lead a fortnight ago, fewer 2019 Tories don't know

    One in five Lab voters backing other parties

    In this crisis labour's polling must be of great concern to their supporters

    The question is why

    And on the fuel shortages, as has been commented on here, a few filling stations closed will not impact on the public

    It would have to be widespread across the country and causing huge queues

    The people at war with Sir Keir's Labour, the Corbynites, have gone Green. Is it too simplistic to assume they just come back? They hate him more than they do Tories
    We'll have to wait and see, but my instinct is they will do as they have done in the past.

    Funnily enough, this might be mentioned in the Saturday morning article I wrote last night...
    Also depends on where these Lab-Green switchers are. It could be a nightmare for Labour, but if it's taking five thousand off the majority in Islington whilst gaining votes in marginals, that does them no harm at all. We just don't know.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 4,083
    edited September 2021

    Scott_xP said:

    Cabinet source tells me the PM “doesn’t want headlines about Christmas being cancelled”.
    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1441404316636508162

    What a piss weak PM.

    Need someone with balls to take over. Preferably Truss.
    Of course, if someone* with Balls** had taken over, we could have enjoyed chaos rather than... this :wink:
    *Ed
    **Ed

    PS: I assume Sunak is better for your book than Truss, given you made the tip? Very selfless of you, if so :smile:
  • It does have to be said that immigration figured at the top of all Leave voters' surveys. The vote was around the time of the European migration crisis, and that's what gave Leave the edge and lifted Europe to a position of priority in voters' concerns it had never been. Hence our debate is still frozen to a certain extent in 2015, and Theresa May's red lines the following year that got us into this tricky pickle.

    This is why debating or putting arguments made no difference to them. They hate the fact that foreigners over here are doing their jobs. Now the foreigners aren't here, some of them are going to have to get out and do their jobs.
  • Nigelb said:

    eek said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
    So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
    The problem with your argument is that it's not the freeloaders who are falling out.

    Its the greater hassle fuel and coolchain hauliers who have immediate problems because the extra money they pay is now not worth the extra hassle.
    The biggie was when the pay fiesta hit the tanker drivers. I assume that Hoyer et al have responded with their own pay rises so they will recruit drivers back which will fill the gaps. Until the next round of poaching when we go back to shortages again and again.

    Thing is, if you are an ADR driver the country really needs you driving fuel and toxic chemicals, not sofas. "Just pay more" is fine and they will and are. But as you lose and then poach back drivers you have gaps and that means fuel shortages.
    Then maybe don't lose them. Maybe pay them more in the first place and when they hand in their notice, maybe stop and think "oh I'll need to pay even more than this".

    If you keep having pathetically small pay rises under the circumstances then yes that will be a problem. Its a problem you need to fix though not have the state fix it for you.
    38% is "pathetically small"?

    ...
    Is Philip actually a union leader ?
    No need for a union, just pay the market rate.

    As a Liverpool fan I'm entirely content to see Mo Salah paid whatever he asks for because we need him and we can afford him.

    If Hoyer need drivers, then sorry but they need the same attitude.

    Whatever the market rate is, just f***ing pay it already. Stop whinging that pay has gone up from a pathetic amount to 1.1x pathetic.
    They were paying the market rate. And then with every pay rise they were paying the new market rate. The problem isn't people paying below market. Its the labour shortage driving the market rate every upwards on a rolling basis.

    As others have said, this kind of workers refuse to work without endless double digit pay rises so fuck the management is exactly the kind of policy you Tories are against.

    You only support it now - in a wonderful act of defend anything - because you can't accept any downsides to Brexit. Indeed you were giving it the full huzzah as shortages increased.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 35,988
    edited September 2021

    eek said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
    So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
    The problem with your argument is that it's not the freeloaders who are falling out.

    Its the greater hassle fuel and coolchain hauliers who have immediate problems because the extra money they pay is now not worth the extra hassle.
    The biggie was when the pay fiesta hit the tanker drivers. I assume that Hoyer et al have responded with their own pay rises so they will recruit drivers back which will fill the gaps. Until the next round of poaching when we go back to shortages again and again.

    Thing is, if you are an ADR driver the country really needs you driving fuel and toxic chemicals, not sofas. "Just pay more" is fine and they will and are. But as you lose and then poach back drivers you have gaps and that means fuel shortages.
    Then maybe don't lose them. Maybe pay them more in the first place and when they hand in their notice, maybe stop and think "oh I'll need to pay even more than this".

    If you keep having pathetically small pay rises under the circumstances then yes that will be a problem. Its a problem you need to fix though not have the state fix it for you.
    38% is "pathetically small"?

    How much should a pay rise be to (a) keep existing drivers and (b) cover any and all possible pay rises by competitors? I've managed a lot of salary budgets and recruited talent where you have to pay to keep them. Never managed a speculative +80% or +180% just in case the rival down the road increases their offer.
    If you haven't filled your vacancies then yes it is.

    The benchmark I'm using is I know truckers in the States can be on over $100k per annum. What did your piddly 38% (34% if we exclude the 2.5% inflation only rise) pay rise in the circumstances increase pay upto out of curiosity?
    "Your piddly 38% pay rise"

    Careful. Your trolling about this is very high grade but you've now become complacent. And this is just to see how much you can get away with. Don't blow it.
  • PJHPJH Posts: 205

    So, we are letting EU workers back into the country because we need them, while ensuring that UK citizens still have no freedom of movement benefits; and we are letting EU goods into the country unchecked, while UK exports are subject to third country customs checks before they can enter the single market. It's almost as if the government is entirely clueless.

    This will be repeated a hundredfold over the next year or two. Nobody on the Brexit side has ever been able to articulate what our strategy as a nation will be in the future.

    To all the people cheering pay rises for low earners (and quite right too) there is no recognition that it will come at a cost to higher earners like me and I suspect most of us on here. Either the cost of basics will rise accordingly and we will all have less disposable income, or costs will rise to the point where some sectors are no longer economic and the jobs disappear altogether. I'm in IT, which won't be able to pay a special premium just because I'm in the UK because in the new post-Covid world I am competing with people from lower cost countries whose cost base is unchanged. Maybe that's no bad thing morally if it levels others up nearer to me.

    So - where are these sectors that we will be focussing on where we now have a previously withheld advantage outside the EU? Which ones are we going to cease bothering with because they are no longer economic? (Agriculture?)

    These questions haven't even been considered which explains the embarrassing lack of planning of how we move from A to B and therefore why the government is continually caught by surprise by each issue in turn.
  • It does have to be said that immigration figured at the top of all Leave voters' surveys. The vote was around the time of the European migration crisis, and that's what gave Leave the edge and lifted Europe to a position of priority in voters' concerns it had never been. Hence our debate is still frozen to a certain extent in 2015, and Theresa May's red lines the following year that got us into this tricky pickle.

    This is why debating or putting arguments made no difference to them. They hate the fact that foreigners over here are doing their jobs. Now the foreigners aren't here, some of them are going to have to get out and do their jobs.
    The only ones unhappy are Remoaners who've moved from arguing that "this wasn't keeping pay rates down" to arguing "look at pay rates going up, won't somebody think of inflation"

    Other than zeal of the convert Remoaner Rochdale I haven't seen even a single Leaver objecting to people getting pay rises.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,466
    IshmaelZ said:

    Farooq said:


    Of course, since Ancient Greek was an ergative-absolutive language, you're talking about the ergative case, not the nominative. An easy mistake to make ;)

    No it isn't. Subjects of transitive and intransitive verbs behave identically in Greek; in E-A languages subjects of intransitive verbs behave like objects of transitive ones.
    You're probably right, I just made up some plausible-sounding bollocks to see if anyone noticed. It could have been true or false, I had no idea either way.

    Much like those who say Brexit has driven up the wages of the low paid.
  • It does have to be said that immigration figured at the top of all Leave voters' surveys. The vote was around the time of the European migration crisis, and that's what gave Leave the edge and lifted Europe to a position of priority in voters' concerns it had never been. Hence our debate is still frozen to a certain extent in 2015, and Theresa May's red lines the following year that got us into this tricky pickle.

    This is why debating or putting arguments made no difference to them. They hate the fact that foreigners over here are doing their jobs. Now the foreigners aren't here, some of them are going to have to get out and do their jobs.
    The only ones unhappy are Remoaners who've moved from arguing that "this wasn't keeping pay rates down" to arguing "look at pay rates going up, won't somebody think of inflation"

    Other than zeal of the convert Remoaner Rochdale I haven't seen even a single Leaver objecting to people getting pay rises.
    i never mentioned pay.
  • PJHPJH Posts: 205

    isam said:


    Tory lead with YouGov up to seven points on eve of Labour conference

    CON 39 (n/c)
    LAB 32 (-3)
    LD 10 (+3)
    GREEN 9 (+2)
    REF UK 3 (n/c)

    Number of Con-Lab switchers halved since Labour lead a fortnight ago, fewer 2019 Tories don't know

    One in five Lab voters backing other parties

    In this crisis labour's polling must be of great concern to their supporters

    The question is why

    And on the fuel shortages, as has been commented on here, a few filling stations closed will not impact on the public

    It would have to be widespread across the country and causing huge queues

    The people at war with Sir Keir's Labour, the Corbynites, have gone Green. Is it too simplistic to assume they just come back? They hate him more than they do Tories
    What interests me is that a few may be moving to the LD's, too. As discussed earlier, I think some may be perceiving him as both anti-EU and vaguely illiberal, especially with what will look to a number of people like machine politics on this new voting system issue.
    I agree with that - I find the Labour party inherently illiberal in instinct, and why should I trust a party to protect a democracy if it doesn't even have OMOV internally?
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,262
    PJH said:

    isam said:


    Tory lead with YouGov up to seven points on eve of Labour conference

    CON 39 (n/c)
    LAB 32 (-3)
    LD 10 (+3)
    GREEN 9 (+2)
    REF UK 3 (n/c)

    Number of Con-Lab switchers halved since Labour lead a fortnight ago, fewer 2019 Tories don't know

    One in five Lab voters backing other parties

    In this crisis labour's polling must be of great concern to their supporters

    The question is why

    And on the fuel shortages, as has been commented on here, a few filling stations closed will not impact on the public

    It would have to be widespread across the country and causing huge queues

    The people at war with Sir Keir's Labour, the Corbynites, have gone Green. Is it too simplistic to assume they just come back? They hate him more than they do Tories
    What interests me is that a few may be moving to the LD's, too. As discussed earlier, I think some may be perceiving him as both anti-EU and vaguely illiberal, especially with what will look to a number of people like machine politics on this new voting system issue.
    I agree with that - I find the Labour party inherently illiberal in instinct, and why should I trust a party to protect a democracy if it doesn't even have OMOV internally?
    The one thing you won't find in the LDs is liberalism!
  • eekeek Posts: 20,666

    It does have to be said that immigration figured at the top of all Leave voters' surveys. The vote was around the time of the European migration crisis, and that's what gave Leave the edge and lifted Europe to a position of priority in voters' concerns it had never been. Hence our debate is still frozen to a certain extent in 2015, and Theresa May's red lines the following year that got us into this tricky pickle.

    This is why debating or putting arguments made no difference to them. They hate the fact that foreigners over here are doing their jobs. Now the foreigners aren't here, some of them are going to have to get out and do their jobs.
    The only ones unhappy are Remoaners who've moved from arguing that "this wasn't keeping pay rates down" to arguing "look at pay rates going up, won't somebody think of inflation"

    Other than zeal of the convert Remoaner Rochdale I haven't seen even a single Leaver objecting to people getting pay rises.
    Where has @RochdalePioneers objected to pay rises, his point has been that it wouldn’t solve the lack of HGV drivers and it hasn’t. All it has done is create merry-go-round of drivers moving to another company for a bit more pay.

    The one thing it hasn’t done (which you claim it should have done) is bring retired drivers back into the industry.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    Quincel said:

    isam said:


    Tory lead with YouGov up to seven points on eve of Labour conference

    CON 39 (n/c)
    LAB 32 (-3)
    LD 10 (+3)
    GREEN 9 (+2)
    REF UK 3 (n/c)

    Number of Con-Lab switchers halved since Labour lead a fortnight ago, fewer 2019 Tories don't know

    One in five Lab voters backing other parties

    In this crisis labour's polling must be of great concern to their supporters

    The question is why

    And on the fuel shortages, as has been commented on here, a few filling stations closed will not impact on the public

    It would have to be widespread across the country and causing huge queues

    The people at war with Sir Keir's Labour, the Corbynites, have gone Green. Is it too simplistic to assume they just come back? They hate him more than they do Tories
    We'll have to wait and see, but my instinct is they will do as they have done in the past.

    Funnily enough, this might be mentioned in the Saturday morning article I wrote last night...
    Have you seen the tables from the Sir Keir Opinium Poll?

    Do you think the Labour Party has got better or worse since Keir Starmer became leader?

    Age
    18-34 Better 23 Worse 24
    35-44 Better 31 Worse 20
    45-54 Better 30 Worse 22
    55-64 Better 33 Worse 20
    65+ Better 36 Worse 17


  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 28,945

    Also interesting that policy advisers for government is an eligible occupation, whilst the people who deliver are our food is not. Perhaps given the governments performance we actually do need to import some talent there.
    Would be good to have a flood of cheap Romanian policy advisers, living eight to a caravan in a dirty field round the back of Whitehall. Whatever those guys are getting paid right now, it's too much.
    Along the same lines. I'm sure you can find plenty of qualified, talented, and under valued Indian, Mexican, Iranian etc business leaders. Would cut the top FTSE pay packets nicely.

    Better for share holders you see...
    Once, at a general meeting to discuss the company policy about outsourcing, I voiced the opinion that outsourcing should start at the top.

    This didn't go down well with the MD - but I was leaving the company anyway...
  • Russell T Davies to return as Doctor Who Showrunner
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 23,447
    Course. If we rea

    Russell T Davies to return as Doctor Who Showrunner

    The retired are being tempted back into their old jobs.
    Brexit bonus.
  • TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
    So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
    The problem with your argument is that it's not the freeloaders who are falling out.

    Its the greater hassle fuel and coolchain hauliers who have immediate problems because the extra money they pay is now not worth the extra hassle.
    The biggie was when the pay fiesta hit the tanker drivers. I assume that Hoyer et al have responded with their own pay rises so they will recruit drivers back which will fill the gaps. Until the next round of poaching when we go back to shortages again and again.

    Thing is, if you are an ADR driver the country really needs you driving fuel and toxic chemicals, not sofas. "Just pay more" is fine and they will and are. But as you lose and then poach back drivers you have gaps and that means fuel shortages.
    Then maybe don't lose them. Maybe pay them more in the first place and when they hand in their notice, maybe stop and think "oh I'll need to pay even more than this".

    If you keep having pathetically small pay rises under the circumstances then yes that will be a problem. Its a problem you need to fix though not have the state fix it for you.
    38% is "pathetically small"?

    How much should a pay rise be to (a) keep existing drivers and (b) cover any and all possible pay rises by competitors? I've managed a lot of salary budgets and recruited talent where you have to pay to keep them. Never managed a speculative +80% or +180% just in case the rival down the road increases their offer.
    If you haven't filled your vacancies then yes it is.

    The benchmark I'm using is I know truckers in the States can be on over $100k per annum. What did your piddly 38% (34% if we exclude the 2.5% inflation only rise) pay rise in the circumstances increase pay upto out of curiosity?
    "Your piddly 38% pay rise"

    Careful. Your trolling about this is very high grade but you've now become complacent. And this is just to see how much you can get away with. Don't blow it.
    I'm not trolling.

    For months now Rochdale and others have been saying that there's this humongous crisis in the industry with 100,000 extra staff needed. The refrain time and again was pay more to get the vacancies paid.

    I for one did not mean a 38% pay rise as being the limit for that. Yes if it means a 100% pay rise or more to fill the vacancies then JFDI applies.

    If you want to increase the pool of drivers by 33% then I see no reason why they must be paid less than MPs for instance.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    edited September 2021

    So, we are letting EU workers back into the country because we need them, while ensuring that UK citizens still have no freedom of movement benefits; and we are letting EU goods into the country unchecked, while UK exports are subject to third country customs checks before they can enter the single market. It's almost as if the government is entirely clueless.

    "we are letting EU workers back into the country because we need them"

    Yes, perfect.

    What was driving wages down, causing the referendum and Leave vote, was letting EU workers in when we didn't need them. So a pay rise for British workers, and if there still aren't enough to fill the vacancies, then we open it up to the EU.

    Working like a dream, exactly what I hoped would happen when I joined UKIP and campaigned for the referendum
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 42,730
    eek said:

    It does have to be said that immigration figured at the top of all Leave voters' surveys. The vote was around the time of the European migration crisis, and that's what gave Leave the edge and lifted Europe to a position of priority in voters' concerns it had never been. Hence our debate is still frozen to a certain extent in 2015, and Theresa May's red lines the following year that got us into this tricky pickle.

    This is why debating or putting arguments made no difference to them. They hate the fact that foreigners over here are doing their jobs. Now the foreigners aren't here, some of them are going to have to get out and do their jobs.
    The only ones unhappy are Remoaners who've moved from arguing that "this wasn't keeping pay rates down" to arguing "look at pay rates going up, won't somebody think of inflation"

    Other than zeal of the convert Remoaner Rochdale I haven't seen even a single Leaver objecting to people getting pay rises.
    Where has @RochdalePioneers objected to pay rises, his point has been that it wouldn’t solve the lack of HGV drivers and it hasn’t. All it has done is create merry-go-round of drivers moving to another company for a bit more pay.

    The one thing it hasn’t done (which you claim it should have done) is bring retired drivers back into the industry.
    What Philip is failing to acknowledge is that this form of Brexit has brought in its wake economic dislocations (hopefully temporary), and introduced additional market inefficiencies (some temporary, some perhaps permanent).

    Some will benefit, some certainly won't, but whatever else it is, 'perfect' it isn't.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 9,347
    Now that should cheer the nation up as we huddle round candles, with breadcrumbs and mouldy veg for tea, for the 1 hour a week of electricity and TV...

    Then wakes up, and realises he isn't inside the pathetic remoaner dream of how to punish leavers...
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 4,083
    Completely off-topic: my autistic train-obsessed nephew has just sent me a video of a train going past captioned 'Deltic!'. Thanks to previous discussions on PB, I was able to reply semi-knowledgeably rather than simply asking "what's a Deltic?" :smile:

    (I'm not yet equipped to judge whether it is, indeed, a Deltic, but I think I'll take his word for it)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 28,945
    eek said:

    It does have to be said that immigration figured at the top of all Leave voters' surveys. The vote was around the time of the European migration crisis, and that's what gave Leave the edge and lifted Europe to a position of priority in voters' concerns it had never been. Hence our debate is still frozen to a certain extent in 2015, and Theresa May's red lines the following year that got us into this tricky pickle.

    This is why debating or putting arguments made no difference to them. They hate the fact that foreigners over here are doing their jobs. Now the foreigners aren't here, some of them are going to have to get out and do their jobs.
    The only ones unhappy are Remoaners who've moved from arguing that "this wasn't keeping pay rates down" to arguing "look at pay rates going up, won't somebody think of inflation"

    Other than zeal of the convert Remoaner Rochdale I haven't seen even a single Leaver objecting to people getting pay rises.
    Where has @RochdalePioneers objected to pay rises, his point has been that it wouldn’t solve the lack of HGV drivers and it hasn’t. All it has done is create merry-go-round of drivers moving to another company for a bit more pay.

    The one thing it hasn’t done (which you claim it should have done) is bring retired drivers back into the industry.
    I advocate the re-introduction of the 1515 act that defined maximum pay for agricultural workers at 4d a day.

    Lets be generous and give the truck drivers a full half-shilling. Proving they doff their caps nicely.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 23,447

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
    So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
    The problem with your argument is that it's not the freeloaders who are falling out.

    Its the greater hassle fuel and coolchain hauliers who have immediate problems because the extra money they pay is now not worth the extra hassle.
    The biggie was when the pay fiesta hit the tanker drivers. I assume that Hoyer et al have responded with their own pay rises so they will recruit drivers back which will fill the gaps. Until the next round of poaching when we go back to shortages again and again.

    Thing is, if you are an ADR driver the country really needs you driving fuel and toxic chemicals, not sofas. "Just pay more" is fine and they will and are. But as you lose and then poach back drivers you have gaps and that means fuel shortages.
    Then maybe don't lose them. Maybe pay them more in the first place and when they hand in their notice, maybe stop and think "oh I'll need to pay even more than this".

    If you keep having pathetically small pay rises under the circumstances then yes that will be a problem. Its a problem you need to fix though not have the state fix it for you.
    38% is "pathetically small"?

    How much should a pay rise be to (a) keep existing drivers and (b) cover any and all possible pay rises by competitors? I've managed a lot of salary budgets and recruited talent where you have to pay to keep them. Never managed a speculative +80% or +180% just in case the rival down the road increases their offer.
    If you haven't filled your vacancies then yes it is.

    The benchmark I'm using is I know truckers in the States can be on over $100k per annum. What did your piddly 38% (34% if we exclude the 2.5% inflation only rise) pay rise in the circumstances increase pay upto out of curiosity?
    "Your piddly 38% pay rise"

    Careful. Your trolling about this is very high grade but you've now become complacent. And this is just to see how much you can get away with. Don't blow it.
    I'm not trolling.

    For months now Rochdale and others have been saying that there's this humongous crisis in the industry with 100,000 extra staff needed. The refrain time and again was pay more to get the vacancies paid.

    I for one did not mean a 38% pay rise as being the limit for that. Yes if it means a 100% pay rise or more to fill the vacancies then JFDI applies.

    If you want to increase the pool of drivers by 33% then I see no reason why they must be paid less than MPs for instance.
    But you can't do that without more qualified drivers. We voted Leave in 2016. What effort or planning was put into this problem between then and the past few weeks?
    Absolutely bugger all that's what.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,177

    Now that should cheer the nation up as we huddle round candles, with breadcrumbs and mouldy veg for tea, for the 1 hour a week of electricity and TV...

    Then wakes up, and realises he isn't inside the pathetic remoaner dream of how to punish leavers...
    I don't think you realise how satire works.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,910
    isam said:

    Quincel said:

    isam said:


    Tory lead with YouGov up to seven points on eve of Labour conference

    CON 39 (n/c)
    LAB 32 (-3)
    LD 10 (+3)
    GREEN 9 (+2)
    REF UK 3 (n/c)

    Number of Con-Lab switchers halved since Labour lead a fortnight ago, fewer 2019 Tories don't know

    One in five Lab voters backing other parties

    In this crisis labour's polling must be of great concern to their supporters

    The question is why

    And on the fuel shortages, as has been commented on here, a few filling stations closed will not impact on the public

    It would have to be widespread across the country and causing huge queues

    The people at war with Sir Keir's Labour, the Corbynites, have gone Green. Is it too simplistic to assume they just come back? They hate him more than they do Tories
    We'll have to wait and see, but my instinct is they will do as they have done in the past.

    Funnily enough, this might be mentioned in the Saturday morning article I wrote last night...
    Have you seen the tables from the Sir Keir Opinium Poll?

    Do you think the Labour Party has got better or worse since Keir Starmer became leader?

    Age
    18-34 Better 23 Worse 24
    35-44 Better 31 Worse 20
    45-54 Better 30 Worse 22
    55-64 Better 33 Worse 20
    65+ Better 36 Worse 17


    Sure, but that isn't really the question. The question will be Starmer or Johnson, Labour or Tory (with manifestos to match). We'll see, but I strongly suspect the bulk of the voters return. Likewise the 2019 Tories who are now Don't Know.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 35,343
    edited September 2021
    I have the same sense of this being a poor idea (opening the door to easy fixes for labour shortages) as I did when Theresa May came back with her deal and when Dave came back with his. They both instinctively felt like sell-outs, so does this.
  • I have just been to Asda, and while there was a queue for fuel it was modest but also there was a huge Asda fuel tanker about to unload its fuel
  • Selebian said:

    Completely off-topic: my autistic train-obsessed nephew has just sent me a video of a train going past captioned 'Deltic!'. Thanks to previous discussions on PB, I was able to reply semi-knowledgeably rather than simply asking "what's a Deltic?" :smile:

    (I'm not yet equipped to judge whether it is, indeed, a Deltic, but I think I'll take his word for it)

    Awesome. Your nephew is a young man of great taste.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,910
    Quincel said:

    isam said:

    Quincel said:

    isam said:


    Tory lead with YouGov up to seven points on eve of Labour conference

    CON 39 (n/c)
    LAB 32 (-3)
    LD 10 (+3)
    GREEN 9 (+2)
    REF UK 3 (n/c)

    Number of Con-Lab switchers halved since Labour lead a fortnight ago, fewer 2019 Tories don't know

    One in five Lab voters backing other parties

    In this crisis labour's polling must be of great concern to their supporters

    The question is why

    And on the fuel shortages, as has been commented on here, a few filling stations closed will not impact on the public

    It would have to be widespread across the country and causing huge queues

    The people at war with Sir Keir's Labour, the Corbynites, have gone Green. Is it too simplistic to assume they just come back? They hate him more than they do Tories
    We'll have to wait and see, but my instinct is they will do as they have done in the past.

    Funnily enough, this might be mentioned in the Saturday morning article I wrote last night...
    Have you seen the tables from the Sir Keir Opinium Poll?

    Do you think the Labour Party has got better or worse since Keir Starmer became leader?

    Age
    18-34 Better 23 Worse 24
    35-44 Better 31 Worse 20
    45-54 Better 30 Worse 22
    55-64 Better 33 Worse 20
    65+ Better 36 Worse 17


    Sure, but that isn't really the question. The question will be Starmer or Johnson, Labour or Tory (with manifestos to match). We'll see, but I strongly suspect the bulk of the voters return. Likewise the 2019 Tories who are now Don't Know.
    Relatedly: Have you seen the tables of the YouGov (I think) poll of Green Members? Some priceless findings, such as how they would support a load of housebuilding. They'd support it even if it required a load of borrowing. They'd support it even if it was in their local area. But if any of it was on greenfield sites...they oppose it dramatically.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 9,347
    IshmaelZ said:

    Now that should cheer the nation up as we huddle round candles, with breadcrumbs and mouldy veg for tea, for the 1 hour a week of electricity and TV...

    Then wakes up, and realises he isn't inside the pathetic remoaner dream of how to punish leavers...
    I don't think you realise how satire works.
    Satire, noun - the use of humour, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues.

    Which bit did I miss? :)
  • eekeek Posts: 20,666
    MaxPB said:

    I have the same sense of this being a poor idea (opening the door to easy fixes for labour shortages) as I did when Theresa May came back with her deal and when Dave came back with his. They both instinctively like sell-outs, so does this.

    Yep, the issue is it’s being done in a hurry without thought where you could easily add reasonable terms and conditions to it that forced the industry to change.

    In reality HGV driver wages have just reached a high that will now start reversing again because Boris is going to allow the industry to import a solution rather than fixing things
  • TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
    So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
    The problem with your argument is that it's not the freeloaders who are falling out.

    Its the greater hassle fuel and coolchain hauliers who have immediate problems because the extra money they pay is now not worth the extra hassle.
    The biggie was when the pay fiesta hit the tanker drivers. I assume that Hoyer et al have responded with their own pay rises so they will recruit drivers back which will fill the gaps. Until the next round of poaching when we go back to shortages again and again.

    Thing is, if you are an ADR driver the country really needs you driving fuel and toxic chemicals, not sofas. "Just pay more" is fine and they will and are. But as you lose and then poach back drivers you have gaps and that means fuel shortages.
    Then maybe don't lose them. Maybe pay them more in the first place and when they hand in their notice, maybe stop and think "oh I'll need to pay even more than this".

    If you keep having pathetically small pay rises under the circumstances then yes that will be a problem. Its a problem you need to fix though not have the state fix it for you.
    38% is "pathetically small"?

    How much should a pay rise be to (a) keep existing drivers and (b) cover any and all possible pay rises by competitors? I've managed a lot of salary budgets and recruited talent where you have to pay to keep them. Never managed a speculative +80% or +180% just in case the rival down the road increases their offer.
    If you haven't filled your vacancies then yes it is.

    The benchmark I'm using is I know truckers in the States can be on over $100k per annum. What did your piddly 38% (34% if we exclude the 2.5% inflation only rise) pay rise in the circumstances increase pay upto out of curiosity?
    "Your piddly 38% pay rise"

    Careful. Your trolling about this is very high grade but you've now become complacent. And this is just to see how much you can get away with. Don't blow it.
    He's the King of Troll. I bet he has his own bridge to sit under, waiting for some unsuspecting traveller....
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 28,945
    Selebian said:

    Completely off-topic: my autistic train-obsessed nephew has just sent me a video of a train going past captioned 'Deltic!'. Thanks to previous discussions on PB, I was able to reply semi-knowledgeably rather than simply asking "what's a Deltic?" :smile:

    (I'm not yet equipped to judge whether it is, indeed, a Deltic, but I think I'll take his word for it)

    Has he seen this?

    image

    I find it almost hypnotic...
  • I have just been to Asda, and while there was a queue for fuel it was modest but also there was a huge Asda fuel tanker about to unload its fuel

    The idea that there is a fuel shortage in this country is absolute nonsense, despite loads of people on this site wishing there was one.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    Quincel said:

    isam said:

    Quincel said:

    isam said:


    Tory lead with YouGov up to seven points on eve of Labour conference

    CON 39 (n/c)
    LAB 32 (-3)
    LD 10 (+3)
    GREEN 9 (+2)
    REF UK 3 (n/c)

    Number of Con-Lab switchers halved since Labour lead a fortnight ago, fewer 2019 Tories don't know

    One in five Lab voters backing other parties

    In this crisis labour's polling must be of great concern to their supporters

    The question is why

    And on the fuel shortages, as has been commented on here, a few filling stations closed will not impact on the public

    It would have to be widespread across the country and causing huge queues

    The people at war with Sir Keir's Labour, the Corbynites, have gone Green. Is it too simplistic to assume they just come back? They hate him more than they do Tories
    We'll have to wait and see, but my instinct is they will do as they have done in the past.

    Funnily enough, this might be mentioned in the Saturday morning article I wrote last night...
    Have you seen the tables from the Sir Keir Opinium Poll?

    Do you think the Labour Party has got better or worse since Keir Starmer became leader?

    Age
    18-34 Better 23 Worse 24
    35-44 Better 31 Worse 20
    45-54 Better 30 Worse 22
    55-64 Better 33 Worse 20
    65+ Better 36 Worse 17


    Sure, but that isn't really the question. The question will be Starmer or Johnson, Labour or Tory (with manifestos to match). We'll see, but I strongly suspect the bulk of the voters return. Likewise the 2019 Tories who are now Don't Know.
    I am assuming the Young Labour 2019 voters are those more likely to go Green. I think it does answer the question to a degree - they have never voted for Sir Keir, 2019 Tories voted for Boris. The Corbyn regime was called a cult, and if it was there is no reason to think those who were part of it are going to back the man who ostracised their hero
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 24,543
    UK shortages being reported widely across European media. This from Libération: "No wonder PM Johnson only talks about French submarines and Britain's new pact with the US/Australia...'Go and cook yourself an egg', Boris, at least if you can find some eggs at the supermarket." https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1441414693072027648/photo/1
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 28,945
    Quincel said:

    Quincel said:

    isam said:

    Quincel said:

    isam said:


    Tory lead with YouGov up to seven points on eve of Labour conference

    CON 39 (n/c)
    LAB 32 (-3)
    LD 10 (+3)
    GREEN 9 (+2)
    REF UK 3 (n/c)

    Number of Con-Lab switchers halved since Labour lead a fortnight ago, fewer 2019 Tories don't know

    One in five Lab voters backing other parties

    In this crisis labour's polling must be of great concern to their supporters

    The question is why

    And on the fuel shortages, as has been commented on here, a few filling stations closed will not impact on the public

    It would have to be widespread across the country and causing huge queues

    The people at war with Sir Keir's Labour, the Corbynites, have gone Green. Is it too simplistic to assume they just come back? They hate him more than they do Tories
    We'll have to wait and see, but my instinct is they will do as they have done in the past.

    Funnily enough, this might be mentioned in the Saturday morning article I wrote last night...
    Have you seen the tables from the Sir Keir Opinium Poll?

    Do you think the Labour Party has got better or worse since Keir Starmer became leader?

    Age
    18-34 Better 23 Worse 24
    35-44 Better 31 Worse 20
    45-54 Better 30 Worse 22
    55-64 Better 33 Worse 20
    65+ Better 36 Worse 17


    Sure, but that isn't really the question. The question will be Starmer or Johnson, Labour or Tory (with manifestos to match). We'll see, but I strongly suspect the bulk of the voters return. Likewise the 2019 Tories who are now Don't Know.
    Relatedly: Have you seen the tables of the YouGov (I think) poll of Green Members? Some priceless findings, such as how they would support a load of housebuilding. They'd support it even if it required a load of borrowing. They'd support it even if it was in their local area. But if any of it was on greenfield sites...they oppose it dramatically.
    Simples - build them on top of said greens. This would involve building on land that was already occupied (therefore not greenfield) and would enable the said Greens to support the vital infrastructure of the country. Get in at the foundation level......
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 9,347
    Scott_xP said:

    UK shortages being reported widely across European media. This from Libération: "No wonder PM Johnson only talks about French submarines and Britain's new pact with the US/Australia...'Go and cook yourself an egg', Boris, at least if you can find some eggs at the supermarket." https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1441414693072027648/photo/1

    No egg shortages near me, and I've not heard of any.
  • Scott_xP said:

    UK shortages being reported widely across European media. This from Libération: "No wonder PM Johnson only talks about French submarines and Britain's new pact with the US/Australia...'Go and cook yourself an egg', Boris, at least if you can find some eggs at the supermarket." https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1441414693072027648/photo/1

    Genuinely do you believe the nonsense you retweet?
  • I have just been to Asda, and while there was a queue for fuel it was modest but also there was a huge Asda fuel tanker about to unload its fuel

    The idea that there is a fuel shortage in this country is absolute nonsense, despite loads of people on this site wishing there was one.
    You won, get over it.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    Scott_xP said:

    UK shortages being reported widely across European media. This from Libération: "No wonder PM Johnson only talks about French submarines and Britain's new pact with the US/Australia...'Go and cook yourself an egg', Boris, at least if you can find some eggs at the supermarket." https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1441414693072027648/photo/1

    Le Guardian Francais! Impeccable source

    "Libération (French: [libeʁasjɔ̃]), popularly known as Libé ([libe]), is a daily newspaper in France, founded in Paris by Jean-Paul Sartre and Serge July in 1973 in the wake of the protest movements of May 1968.

    Initially positioned on the extreme-left of France's political spectrum, the editorial line evolved towards a more centre-left stance at the end of the 1970s. Its editorial stance was centre-left as of 2012"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libération
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 4,083

    Selebian said:

    Completely off-topic: my autistic train-obsessed nephew has just sent me a video of a train going past captioned 'Deltic!'. Thanks to previous discussions on PB, I was able to reply semi-knowledgeably rather than simply asking "what's a Deltic?" :smile:

    (I'm not yet equipped to judge whether it is, indeed, a Deltic, but I think I'll take his word for it)

    Awesome. Your nephew is a young man of great taste.
    Him having a phone is a fairly new thing. We're getting lots of odd videos (trains going past among the less odd - traffic lights, self-scan checkouts) but also developing into messages abou what he's been doing, what he's up to at school etc. He's not someone who normally talks much at all when we see him - although he is much more responsive on video calls - so it's been really nice to have this extra form of communication.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 24,543
    (NB 'go cook yourself an egg' isn't totally random. It's an expression in French- basically means leave me/us alone/get lost).
    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1441415134803595264
  • stodgestodge Posts: 10,717


    The idea that there is a fuel shortage in this country is absolute nonsense, despite loads of people on this site wishing there was one.

    "loads of people on this site wishing there was one" - pitiful.

    No one wants a fuel crisis even if the poor old Tories take a bit of a temporary hit from the voters. Too many are seriously dependent on being able to get about - carers to name but one - for anyone to want to make cheap political capital.

    In any case, the Government propaganda machine (North Wales office) assures us there are no queues and plenty of fuel so there you go.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 4,083
    edited September 2021

    Selebian said:

    Completely off-topic: my autistic train-obsessed nephew has just sent me a video of a train going past captioned 'Deltic!'. Thanks to previous discussions on PB, I was able to reply semi-knowledgeably rather than simply asking "what's a Deltic?" :smile:

    (I'm not yet equipped to judge whether it is, indeed, a Deltic, but I think I'll take his word for it)

    Has he seen this?

    image

    I find it almost hypnotic...
    I shall forward the wiki-page :smile: Crikey, I'm going to look like a really know some stuff!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 24,543
    Why did BoZo call an emergency cabinet meeting to solve a problem that "doesn't exist"..?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 24,543
    At least Ted Heath had a plan to get Britain out of its 70s mess, even if Margaret Thatcher reaped the benefit. But Boris Johnson has no plan and no silver bullet to rescue him or the country from this Brexit-induced chaos. Re-upping my recent column.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/stagflation-stalks-the-economy-and-there-is-no-get-out-of-jail-free-card-z6677cccr
  • Scott_xP said:

    UK shortages being reported widely across European media. This from Libération: "No wonder PM Johnson only talks about French submarines and Britain's new pact with the US/Australia...'Go and cook yourself an egg', Boris, at least if you can find some eggs at the supermarket." https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1441414693072027648/photo/1

    I understand Goodall has already been warned by the BBC about his anti government bias
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    stodge said:


    The idea that there is a fuel shortage in this country is absolute nonsense, despite loads of people on this site wishing there was one.

    "loads of people on this site wishing there was one" - pitiful.

    No one wants a fuel crisis even if the poor old Tories take a bit of a temporary hit from the voters. Too many are seriously dependent on being able to get about - carers to name but one - for anyone to want to make cheap political capital.

    In any case, the Government propaganda machine (North Wales office) assures us there are no queues and plenty of fuel so there you go.
    Oooh no, nobody wants a fuel crisis

    Like no one wanted empty shelves where perrier once stood, or there to be 100, 000 cases a day, or John Lewis-gate to stick, or for Boris to have beat up Carrie, or for him to have said "people of Colour", or for his watch not to have been 15 mins fast...
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 5,036
    edited September 2021
    isam said:

    Quincel said:

    isam said:


    Tory lead with YouGov up to seven points on eve of Labour conference

    CON 39 (n/c)
    LAB 32 (-3)
    LD 10 (+3)
    GREEN 9 (+2)
    REF UK 3 (n/c)

    Number of Con-Lab switchers halved since Labour lead a fortnight ago, fewer 2019 Tories don't know

    One in five Lab voters backing other parties

    In this crisis labour's polling must be of great concern to their supporters

    The question is why

    And on the fuel shortages, as has been commented on here, a few filling stations closed will not impact on the public

    It would have to be widespread across the country and causing huge queues

    The people at war with Sir Keir's Labour, the Corbynites, have gone Green. Is it too simplistic to assume they just come back? They hate him more than they do Tories
    We'll have to wait and see, but my instinct is they will do as they have done in the past.

    Funnily enough, this might be mentioned in the Saturday morning article I wrote last night...
    Have you seen the tables from the Sir Keir Opinium Poll?

    Do you think the Labour Party has got better or worse since Keir Starmer became leader?

    Age
    18-34 Better 23 Worse 24
    35-44 Better 31 Worse 20
    45-54 Better 30 Worse 22
    55-64 Better 33 Worse 20
    65+ Better 36 Worse 17


    Actually, that's more positive for Starmer than I'd have guessed - a significantly higher proportion 'better' in all age groups except 18-34. It looks like nearly half are 'don't know' as well; if Starmer can shift most of these to 'better' it would look quite promising.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 14,717
    edited September 2021
    This is rather good.

    Extinction Rebellion protestor who glued himself to an aircraft and wrecked the travel arrangements of 337 people jailed for 12 months. Charge of Causing a Public Nuisance.

    Double Gold Medalling, blind paralympic athlete, too. No quarter for public figures. You dont get to disturb the lives of people going about their lawful business.

    Wonder if the sentence will stand? Presumably the defence team will Appeal.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/sep/24/judge-issues-protest-warning-as-paralympian-jailed-for-plane-stunt
  • eekeek Posts: 20,666
    dixiedean said:

    Course. If we rea

    Russell T Davies to return as Doctor Who Showrunner

    The retired are being tempted back into their old jobs.
    Brexit bonus.
    Worth adding

    That means there is zero chance of Christopher Eccleston coming back for the 60th special and take any odds available on Olly Alexander being the next Dr Who.
  • stodge said:


    The idea that there is a fuel shortage in this country is absolute nonsense, despite loads of people on this site wishing there was one.

    "loads of people on this site wishing there was one" - pitiful.

    No one wants a fuel crisis even if the poor old Tories take a bit of a temporary hit from the voters. Too many are seriously dependent on being able to get about - carers to name but one - for anyone to want to make cheap political capital.

    In any case, the Government propaganda machine (North Wales office) assures us there are no queues and plenty of fuel so there you go.
    I just updated on our Asda this pm and modest queue but large Asda tanker at the service station about to unload
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 28,945
    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    Completely off-topic: my autistic train-obsessed nephew has just sent me a video of a train going past captioned 'Deltic!'. Thanks to previous discussions on PB, I was able to reply semi-knowledgeably rather than simply asking "what's a Deltic?" :smile:

    (I'm not yet equipped to judge whether it is, indeed, a Deltic, but I think I'll take his word for it)

    Has he seen this?

    image

    I find it almost hypnotic...
    I shall forward the wiki-page :smile: Crikey, I'm going to look like a really know some stuff!
    I shall try and find out if there is a good page on the Compound Deltic.

    This was a weird lovechild of the Napier Nomad and the Deltic - So a diesel engine strapped to a jet engine.....

    A classic of the kind of British engineering where the correct response is to back away slowly, so as not to scare the lunatics who were coming up with these ideas.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 25,994

    eek said:

    It does have to be said that immigration figured at the top of all Leave voters' surveys. The vote was around the time of the European migration crisis, and that's what gave Leave the edge and lifted Europe to a position of priority in voters' concerns it had never been. Hence our debate is still frozen to a certain extent in 2015, and Theresa May's red lines the following year that got us into this tricky pickle.

    This is why debating or putting arguments made no difference to them. They hate the fact that foreigners over here are doing their jobs. Now the foreigners aren't here, some of them are going to have to get out and do their jobs.
    The only ones unhappy are Remoaners who've moved from arguing that "this wasn't keeping pay rates down" to arguing "look at pay rates going up, won't somebody think of inflation"

    Other than zeal of the convert Remoaner Rochdale I haven't seen even a single Leaver objecting to people getting pay rises.
    Where has @RochdalePioneers objected to pay rises, his point has been that it wouldn’t solve the lack of HGV drivers and it hasn’t. All it has done is create merry-go-round of drivers moving to another company for a bit more pay.

    The one thing it hasn’t done (which you claim it should have done) is bring retired drivers back into the industry.
    I advocate the re-introduction of the 1515 act that defined maximum pay for agricultural workers at 4d a day.

    Lets be generous and give the truck drivers a full half-shilling. Proving they doff their caps nicely.
    HYUFD is already on the case, I am sure. Though why starve the yokels but not bring back burning at the stake for witches, heretics, etc.?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,103

    Selebian said:

    Completely off-topic: my autistic train-obsessed nephew has just sent me a video of a train going past captioned 'Deltic!'. Thanks to previous discussions on PB, I was able to reply semi-knowledgeably rather than simply asking "what's a Deltic?" :smile:

    (I'm not yet equipped to judge whether it is, indeed, a Deltic, but I think I'll take his word for it)

    Awesome. Your nephew is a young man of great taste.
    Deltic Preservation Society is 2 miles from Chez BJO

    £25 a year https://www.thedps.co.uk/
  • eek said:

    It does have to be said that immigration figured at the top of all Leave voters' surveys. The vote was around the time of the European migration crisis, and that's what gave Leave the edge and lifted Europe to a position of priority in voters' concerns it had never been. Hence our debate is still frozen to a certain extent in 2015, and Theresa May's red lines the following year that got us into this tricky pickle.

    This is why debating or putting arguments made no difference to them. They hate the fact that foreigners over here are doing their jobs. Now the foreigners aren't here, some of them are going to have to get out and do their jobs.
    The only ones unhappy are Remoaners who've moved from arguing that "this wasn't keeping pay rates down" to arguing "look at pay rates going up, won't somebody think of inflation"

    Other than zeal of the convert Remoaner Rochdale I haven't seen even a single Leaver objecting to people getting pay rises.
    Where has @RochdalePioneers objected to pay rises, his point has been that it wouldn’t solve the lack of HGV drivers and it hasn’t. All it has done is create merry-go-round of drivers moving to another company for a bit more pay.

    The one thing it hasn’t done (which you claim it should have done) is bring retired drivers back into the industry.
    But do we really want retired HGV drivers coming back? I guess it would be okay if they're fit and in their 50s/60s, but I wouldn't be too keen on 'elderly' HGV drivers cruising down out streets.
  • eek said:

    It does have to be said that immigration figured at the top of all Leave voters' surveys. The vote was around the time of the European migration crisis, and that's what gave Leave the edge and lifted Europe to a position of priority in voters' concerns it had never been. Hence our debate is still frozen to a certain extent in 2015, and Theresa May's red lines the following year that got us into this tricky pickle.

    This is why debating or putting arguments made no difference to them. They hate the fact that foreigners over here are doing their jobs. Now the foreigners aren't here, some of them are going to have to get out and do their jobs.
    The only ones unhappy are Remoaners who've moved from arguing that "this wasn't keeping pay rates down" to arguing "look at pay rates going up, won't somebody think of inflation"

    Other than zeal of the convert Remoaner Rochdale I haven't seen even a single Leaver objecting to people getting pay rises.
    Where has @RochdalePioneers objected to pay rises, his point has been that it wouldn’t solve the lack of HGV drivers and it hasn’t. All it has done is create merry-go-round of drivers moving to another company for a bit more pay.

    The one thing it hasn’t done (which you claim it should have done) is bring retired drivers back into the industry.
    We don't know that. Serious pay rises haven't happened yet it seems.

    Show me a job vacancy for an HGV driver with a starting salary for more than an MPs starting salary and let's see how long it goes unfilled for.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 24,543
    Shell confirms that there is panic buying at some petrol stations

    ‘We are seeing an increased demand today for fuel at some of our stations, which may in some instances result in larger queues

    ‘We are adapting our delivery schedules to ensure sufficient supplies’

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1441416884792954897
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 28,945
    Carnyx said:

    eek said:

    It does have to be said that immigration figured at the top of all Leave voters' surveys. The vote was around the time of the European migration crisis, and that's what gave Leave the edge and lifted Europe to a position of priority in voters' concerns it had never been. Hence our debate is still frozen to a certain extent in 2015, and Theresa May's red lines the following year that got us into this tricky pickle.

    This is why debating or putting arguments made no difference to them. They hate the fact that foreigners over here are doing their jobs. Now the foreigners aren't here, some of them are going to have to get out and do their jobs.
    The only ones unhappy are Remoaners who've moved from arguing that "this wasn't keeping pay rates down" to arguing "look at pay rates going up, won't somebody think of inflation"

    Other than zeal of the convert Remoaner Rochdale I haven't seen even a single Leaver objecting to people getting pay rises.
    Where has @RochdalePioneers objected to pay rises, his point has been that it wouldn’t solve the lack of HGV drivers and it hasn’t. All it has done is create merry-go-round of drivers moving to another company for a bit more pay.

    The one thing it hasn’t done (which you claim it should have done) is bring retired drivers back into the industry.
    I advocate the re-introduction of the 1515 act that defined maximum pay for agricultural workers at 4d a day.

    Lets be generous and give the truck drivers a full half-shilling. Proving they doff their caps nicely.
    HYUFD is already on the case, I am sure. Though why starve the yokels but not bring back burning at the stake for witches, heretics, etc.?
    Witch burning was and is for furiennnnners.

    We Noble Brits only burn heretics.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,103

    I have just been to Asda, and while there was a queue for fuel it was modest but also there was a huge Asda fuel tanker about to unload its fuel

    Well done that marvellous Mr Drakeford
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 25,994
    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    Completely off-topic: my autistic train-obsessed nephew has just sent me a video of a train going past captioned 'Deltic!'. Thanks to previous discussions on PB, I was able to reply semi-knowledgeably rather than simply asking "what's a Deltic?" :smile:

    (I'm not yet equipped to judge whether it is, indeed, a Deltic, but I think I'll take his word for it)

    Has he seen this?

    image

    I find it almost hypnotic...
    I shall forward the wiki-page :smile: Crikey, I'm going to look like a really know some stuff!
    I don't know if you saw my posting the last time we discussed Deltics - I mentioned I'd recently found the Deltic engine manual for Ton class minesweepers in the papers of my late father (ex Navy).
  • eekeek Posts: 20,666
    Scott_xP said:

    Shell confirms that there is panic buying at some petrol stations

    ‘We are seeing an increased demand today for fuel at some of our stations, which may in some instances result in larger queues

    ‘We are adapting our delivery schedules to ensure sufficient supplies’

    https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1441416884792954897

    You would have to be panic buying to buy at Shell it's 6p a litre more expensive round here compared to Morrisons.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    edited September 2021
    To think, when I used to say mass immigration of cheap EU Labour suppressed wages, people on here actually used to argue that it didn't

    The Supply-and-Demand deniers
  • Selebian said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Cabinet source tells me the PM “doesn’t want headlines about Christmas being cancelled”.
    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1441404316636508162

    What a piss weak PM.

    Need someone with balls to take over. Preferably Truss.
    Of course, if someone* with Balls** had taken over, we could have enjoyed chaos rather than... this :wink:
    *Ed
    **Ed

    PS: I assume Sunak is better for your book than Truss, given you made the tip? Very selfless of you, if so :smile:
    Yes I have 5000 reasons to want Sunak to get the job. 5020 including the stake.

    I think Truss would do a better job though.
  • MattW said:

    This is rather good.

    Extinction Rebellion protestor who glued himself to an aircraft and wrecked the travel arrangements of 337 people jailed for 12 months. Charge of Causing a Public Nuisance.

    Double Gold Medalling, blind paralympic athlete, too. No quarter for public figures. You dont get to disturb the lives of people going about their lawful business.

    Wonder if the sentence will stand? Presumably the defence team will Appeal.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/sep/24/judge-issues-protest-warning-as-paralympian-jailed-for-plane-stunt

    Good?

    1 year for £40 000 damage. Seems like the judiciary is being influenced again.

    Student jailed for six months for looting a case of water in London

    https://www.thejournal.ie/student-jailed-for-six-months-for-looting-a-case-of-water-in-london-199256-Aug2011/
This discussion has been closed.