Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

The front pages that should frighten ministers – politicalbetting.com

178101213

Comments

  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,423
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    People need to calm down. The government will bring in army drivers if need be

    Are these the same Army drivers that are driving ambulances in Scotland?

    Or the same ones being sent to Northern Ireland?
    You do realise that the army has got tanker drivers, right? How stupid are you?
    Has it? Maybe. Probably. Possibly. Would like to see the numbers.

    Rule One of army drivers; stay well the fuck away from them.

    The thought of a squaddie towing a huge IED across the highways and byways of the UK is not by any stretch of the imagination a good idea.
    It definitely had the last time we had fuel shortages and they got wheeled out. Though Dura_Ace says they've been cut since, which is also unsurprising given the Tory government.
    Quite a lot of the heavy transport was outsourced to KBR via PFI which needs civvie drivers.
  • eekeek Posts: 21,780
    edited September 2021
    dixiedean said:

    Fact is. It's easy to blame the unemployed.
    But I'm still seeing adverts for zero hour contracts, as well as the Spar jobs I quoted above, offering only part-time hours, but needing to be available every hour God sends, 7 days a week, thus negating any advantage of part-time working for those with other responsibilities.
    If folk can't get staff, then how about contracts with regular, stated hours, sick pay, etc. Rather than expecting to have folk come in at your convenience and not pay them when it isn't.
    If you need someone desperately short term, there are always temp agencies.

    The fact is that until now there has always been people willing to do that sort of work. Until suddenly 1 day (now) there isn't at which point that store is going to have to either reduce their opening hours or try to find working patterns that workers will accept.

    In fact the nicest thing about this discussion is that it makes my vote for Brexit feel worthwhile, the poorly paid are now, once again, getting some say in their working conditions and pay.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,204

    PJH said:

    Update on petrol and empty shelves in suburban east London- in my local Sainsbury's this morning, the usual spotty gaps as per recently on the shelves, generally not as full as say 6 months ago but most things available. The most obvious gap was on the pasta aisle. I was able to get everything I wanted but I did take the last bottle of Bishop's Finger (other beers remain available).

    Outside, quite a few cars queueing for fuel, presumably on the basis that if the government says there is no need to panic buy, then one should buy.

    I like a Bishop's Finger but it is an almost guaranteed hangover.
    You should try Harvey's of Sussex. The 'Harvey's Head' hangover is infamous. A doctor friend once gave been some prescription-only anti-migraine pills to counter it but they made no difference.
    Strongly disagree with that. I've drunk over 10,000 pints of Harvey's bitter over the last 20 years (10 pints a week, so 520 a year) and am yet to have a hangover - even when I consume the 10 pints a week over 1 or 2 days of that week. It's the red wine that gets me.....
    My homemade wine, banana and ginger, does give me a bad head
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,163

    @StuartKLau
    Diplomats on Asia from several EU member states said they were not informed about EU foreign policy chief Borrell’s strategic dialogue next week with Chinese FM Wang Yi, until they saw it from the EU’s public calendar

    The dialogue will take place 4 days after Biden’s Quad summit


    https://twitter.com/StuartKLau/status/1441353746735190030

    Why France is now on the outside looking in - exhibit A. This is going to be the same grovelling rubbish we saw with him and Putin.

    I also wonder what the EU has privately given up to get the meeting, we should watch out for any change on COVID origin investigation stance from the EU.
  • eekeek Posts: 21,780

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    A turkey farmer on LBC right now

    His industry has been crippled by lack of EU workers

    So he, like others, is having to reduce turkey supply

    Which means there will be a UK shortage of turkeys

    Which means…

    Supermarkets will fill the shortage by buying…

    TURKEYS FROM THE EU


    https://twitter.com/MarinaPurkiss/status/1441356626720555014

    And yet there are still unemployed people in the UK. Go figure.
    Who generally live in urban areas and not next to a turkey farm.
    True, but I believe people who can work for a living, should. Near me there are loads of jobs going, including my favourite pub not being open as it needs staff. No one who can work should not be doing so right now.
    As always its a balancing act. Many of the people needing work have kids and the work (like your pub) are shifts. Iain Duncan Smith made similar comments back in the day up in Merthyr Tydfil - loads of jobs in Cardiff. Great! But how does that work if you're in the valleys and you have kids and theres no childcare or public transport to cover shifts.

    And farms? Out in the sticks not where the unemployed are. How do we get people from the towns out into the sticks and back every day?
    Was it here or elsewhere that I remember a conversation about Heck Sausages complaining about a lack of workers in an area where the average house price was 25 times what they were paying (this is Bedale, North Yorkshire by the way, not London)
    Probably. Heck are based in an expensive part of the world. Profit margins in the sector aren't generous, and like so many food companies who have diversified into Vegan its a black hole for R&D cash.

    Assume that they increased factory operatives pay 50%. Thats only 1 line on their P&L but will make the costings for individual products not work. So whopping price increases are needed which the supermarkets are very reluctant to accept as consumers largely won't pay.

    In practice if Heck did stick 50% on their operatives salaries they would need less of them as they would price their products out of the market.
    It was elsewhere where this was discussed then - as when someone else checked the accounts there was an easy place to reduce costs - reducing the large amounts the owners / management were extracting,,,
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,063
    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    England's R number .8 to 1

    Its not though is it - these statistics are always trotted out as if they are current when they're in fact some time behind. The current r is slightly above 1 as cases are rising a bit.
    It's effectively a 2 week old figure because it is to weekending last Friday.

    The existence of the Timely-vs-Accurate data tradeoff is the Covid conundrum that people still seem to have trouble grasping.
    Hospitalisation derived R makes more sense now -

    image

    This is because we have a situation where cases are rising in the unvaccinated, younger groups -

    image

    and falling for everyone else. The younger groups are very unlikely to need medical intervention -

    image

  • Hmm.

    Odds on Taiwan being invaded before the year ends?

    Reasons this could happen:
    1) domestic trouble in China's economy provokes a military adventure response to restore some goodwill
    2) waving your guns around can help remind anyone thinking of protesting how that might go
    3) AUKUS is nascent and wider allies (Japan, India, etc) are not collectively held together in a formal alliance so attacking now rather than waiting for an anti-China (or counter-China) alliance to really get going may be wise
    4) Xi has been building up Chinese military strength for quite some time now (this is a general rather than time-specific point, of course)
  • sladeslade Posts: 1,609

    This result seems off script


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    Soham North (East Cambridgeshire) by-election result:

    CON: 50.8% (+8.6)
    LDEM: 38.8% (-9.1)
    LAB: 7.5% (-2.5)
    GRN: 2.9% (+2.9)

    Conservative GAIN from Liberal Democrat.

    I can think of one potential local effect in Soham: they've a new train station opening soon (December?). I would not be surprised if the investment had had an effect on voting.

    https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/anglia/improving-the-railway-in-anglia/reconnecting-soham/

    A few years back, we went to Soham village fete. Whilst there, someone told us that the village was famous for two things: a massive ammunition train explosion in 1944, and the Soham murders. He wished it could be famous for something more positive ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soham_rail_disaster
    The Conservative winner was formerly councillor for this ward and is currently the county councillor for the area. The by-election was caused by the Lib Dem councillor moving out of the area.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,135
    Britain’s electronic passport gates failed this morning, bringing chaos and four-hour queues to Heathrow airport

    The problem is understood to be nationwide
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chaos-at-airports-as-electronic-passport-gates-crash-vcxtvxlmn?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1632488507
  • Breaking

    BP - 20 out of our 1200 stations are closed today
  • eekeek Posts: 21,780
    Cicero said:

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    A turkey farmer on LBC right now

    His industry has been crippled by lack of EU workers

    So he, like others, is having to reduce turkey supply

    Which means there will be a UK shortage of turkeys

    Which means…

    Supermarkets will fill the shortage by buying…

    TURKEYS FROM THE EU


    https://twitter.com/MarinaPurkiss/status/1441356626720555014

    only if there is spare supply in the EU..

    But I don't see the problem, they just need to pay more until people are willing to do the work required. And if they can't, we can always import from the EU...
    This is the ignorant fallacy at the heart of PBTory/Brexiteer thinking. "If there is insufficent labour, then this can be corrected by paying higher wages". Problem is where the supply of labour is inelastic (eg because its dangerous to let an untrained driver take a 44 tonne articulated lorry on the road, especially it its carrying a highly inflammible payload) then it takes at least the training period before any shortage can be addressed. Any pay increases move workers around, they don´t add to the total labour pool of the sector. Also increased total logistics costs add to inflation across the whole economy. It is not just Covid though, because EU drivers were a margin which helped keep the logisitics chain efficient, and their loss is crippling the whole sector.

    The EU is now structurally more efficient in logistics even though they face the same problem that the epidemic slowed the supply of new HGV drivers, because the rights of cobtage means that the whole labour force can be deployed quickly across the whole Union WITHOUT THE EXTRA PAPERWORK it now takes to enter the UK market. So Uk firms cant get the extra work in the EU that would save their margins, becuause they are mostly barred from the EU, but its still not worth EU hauliers try to do smaller marginal jobs in UK, because the regulatory and Covid environments are too risky to bother with. Even if there was a sufficient supply of new UK HGV drivers right away, the marginal supply from the EU is gone and that is a long term inefficiency.

    So now the UK is structurally less competitive than the EU. and not just in logisitcs. in a variety of sectors across the whole economy, from upland farming to Honda are giving up the ghost. When inflation tracks up like this, sooner or later rates will rise and when that happens, probably Q1 or Q2 next year the squeeze on living standards will be severe, and yes it will be more severe for us than the EU, because we have lost the safety margins and efficiency that the single market gave us.

    By then I expect HYFUD will be questioning even his own Tory credentials, but the price will be being paid by the rest of us long after the wastrel Prime Minister and his unlovely band of fools and shits have been packed off to the great Question Time in the sky.
    You know my post was about turkeys (as in the animal / meat) and absolutely nothing to do with anything else.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,135
    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,458
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Breaking

    Key cabinet ministers meeting this afternoon to address driver shortages and visa scheme

    If I was a lorry driver who had just got my first decent wage increase for a long time I would be seriously pissed.

    There are 6m EU citizens who already have rights to be here. I would be astonished if this did not include tens of thousands of drivers. But if they are being offered better wages elsewhere that is where they will go.
    Why would they be pissed? This won't force down their wages, and it will improve conditions as the sector won't be under such massive pressure.
    Like it has improved conditions and wages over the last 20 years? They have finally got a negotiation position but that is apparently not acceptable and must now be undermined. I am sure that they should just be grateful, or something.

    If they are lucky the shortfall of drivers in the EU will mean that the competition is limited.
    What about -

    - unlimited visas
    - for PAYE employment at £50K a year
    I don't have any problems with immigration at that level because they are clearly meeting a need that cannot be met more cheaply by the indigenous population.

    I have much more of a problem with the many casualties of our truly crap education system (for those other than the elite) finding themselves out competed for minimum wage jobs by people who are willing to undercut those entitlements because it is still way more than they can hope to get at home just so we can have cheap deliveries, care providers, crop pickers and cappuccinos. To me this is not only very poor economics, it is morally wrong with the better off professional classes exploiting those least able to provide for themselves with what amounts to unfair competition.

    The red wallers (and this is obviously a simplistic generalisation) voted with their wallets against the professional classes. They were absolutely right to do so. And the professionals now need to stop squealing and pay up.
    There was a large affluent block that voted for Brexit, and many poorer voters in places like London and Manchester who voted remain.
    Sure, I am reasonably affluent and I voted for Brexit. But the patronising rubbish that those on low wages only voted for Brexit because they were too stupid or did not see the benefits and disbenefits for themselves is based upon narrow self interest and a lack of comprehension about how too many in this country live.
    People on low wages stuck in shit jobs that leave them just enough money to be broke knew why they voted for Brexit. When the status quo is shit, vote for the alternative.

    That they were lied to and didn't know how things work isn't their fault, blame the people who lied to them and manipulated them.
    Yet more patronising rubbish. They recognised that they were being shafted and voted accordingly in their own interest. And it was.
    Well, it is a bit early to say. The adverse impacts of Brexit tend to be in the areas that were most Brexity, so time will tell as to whether they have damaged their own interests.

    But I agree that they have agency, so should not be protected from the consequences of their vote.
  • eekeek Posts: 21,780

    Breaking

    BP - 20 out of our 1200 stations are closed today

    1 or 2 drivers missing then - hardly a big crisis.
  • Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Bad decision. 👎
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,245

    Bloomberg - CHINA ENERGY CRUNCH: The electricity shortages in China are worsening, and widening geographically. It's getting so bad Beijing is now asking some food processors (like soybean crushing plants) to shut down

    https://twitter.com/JavierBlas/status/1441335213326409728

    Blimey, Brexit really has caused chaos hasn't it?

    I heard someone on R5 this morning pointing out that the increase in energy production in China in the next 12 months will exceed the total energy production of Europe. No idea whether that is actually true but the reality is that any hope of containing global warming is all about China and increasingly little to do with anyone else. Of course their energy production is very closely related to our consumption of their products so we are not blameless in this but what the UK does is in the areas of gesture politics and virtue signalling only.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,135
    Question for the PB Brexit Brain Trust

    How can a problem (shortage of HGV drivers) that was absolutely, definitely not caused by Brexit, be eased by abandoning part of Brexit?

    Take your time...
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,204

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Bad decision. 👎
    Why ?

    Surely this is the skilled and controlled migration promised by brexit ?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,163
    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
  • eekeek Posts: 21,780
    Dura_Ace said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    People need to calm down. The government will bring in army drivers if need be

    Are these the same Army drivers that are driving ambulances in Scotland?

    Or the same ones being sent to Northern Ireland?
    You do realise that the army has got tanker drivers, right? How stupid are you?
    Has it? Maybe. Probably. Possibly. Would like to see the numbers.

    Rule One of army drivers; stay well the fuck away from them.

    The thought of a squaddie towing a huge IED across the highways and byways of the UK is not by any stretch of the imagination a good idea.
    It definitely had the last time we had fuel shortages and they got wheeled out. Though Dura_Ace says they've been cut since, which is also unsurprising given the Tory government.
    Quite a lot of the heavy transport was outsourced to KBR via PFI which needs civvie drivers.
    Round here Metcalfes have a nice sideline in shifting heavy items to and from Catterick..
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,204
    eek said:

    Breaking

    BP - 20 out of our 1200 stations are closed today

    1 or 2 drivers missing then - hardly a big crisis.
    I’d love to know how many are closed on average in a normal day anyway.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,640
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Bad decision. 👎
    Why ?

    Surely this is the skilled and controlled migration promised by brexit ?
    Philip hates the free market
  • Scott_xP said:

    A turkey farmer on LBC right now

    His industry has been crippled by lack of EU workers

    So he, like others, is having to reduce turkey supply

    Which means there will be a UK shortage of turkeys

    Which means…

    Supermarkets will fill the shortage by buying…

    TURKEYS FROM THE EU


    https://twitter.com/MarinaPurkiss/status/1441356626720555014

    And yet there are still unemployed people in the UK. Go figure.
    Who generally live in urban areas and not next to a turkey farm.
    True, but I believe people who can work for a living, should. Near me there are loads of jobs going, including my favourite pub not being open as it needs staff. No one who can work should not be doing so right now.
    Is there housing near these jobs where people on the wages the jobs offer can afford to live ?, or have the local NIMBYs ensured there is no such housing available?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Taz said:

    PJH said:

    Update on petrol and empty shelves in suburban east London- in my local Sainsbury's this morning, the usual spotty gaps as per recently on the shelves, generally not as full as say 6 months ago but most things available. The most obvious gap was on the pasta aisle. I was able to get everything I wanted but I did take the last bottle of Bishop's Finger (other beers remain available).

    Outside, quite a few cars queueing for fuel, presumably on the basis that if the government says there is no need to panic buy, then one should buy.

    I like a Bishop's Finger but it is an almost guaranteed hangover.
    You should try Harvey's of Sussex. The 'Harvey's Head' hangover is infamous. A doctor friend once gave been some prescription-only anti-migraine pills to counter it but they made no difference.
    Strongly disagree with that. I've drunk over 10,000 pints of Harvey's bitter over the last 20 years (10 pints a week, so 520 a year) and am yet to have a hangover - even when I consume the 10 pints a week over 1 or 2 days of that week. It's the red wine that gets me.....
    My homemade wine, banana and ginger, does give me a bad head
    If only all problems had so obvious a solution.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 8,251
    edited September 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    That's good news. We have a continent brimming with skilled labour on our doorstep that can be utilized to our benefit. To shut the door on that totally, through Brexit zealotry and crackpot supply-and-demand theories, would have been madness.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,423

    Hmm.

    Odds on Taiwan being invaded before the year ends?

    Reasons this could happen:
    1) domestic trouble in China's economy provokes a military adventure response to restore some goodwill
    2) waving your guns around can help remind anyone thinking of protesting how that might go
    3) AUKUS is nascent and wider allies (Japan, India, etc) are not collectively held together in a formal alliance so attacking now rather than waiting for an anti-China (or counter-China) alliance to really get going may be wise
    4) Xi has been building up Chinese military strength for quite some time now (this is a general rather than time-specific point, of course)

    The odds are 0%.

    China has a strategy for Taiwan (dissent from within, constriction from without) that's working and will deliver Taiwan within a decade or two. They patiently waited 20+ years for Hong Kong.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Question for the PB Brexit Brain Trust

    How can a problem (shortage of HGV drivers) that was absolutely, definitely not caused by Brexit, be eased by abandoning part of Brexit?

    Take your time...

    Because a "shortage of drivers" is not a problem.

    Pay them enough and people will do the job.

    For self-entitled bosses like @RochdalePioneers no an 11% pay rise if you're struggling with a competitive sector and want to get people to return from other sectors is not a massive or shocking pay rise.
  • Farooq said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Bad decision. 👎
    Why ?

    Surely this is the skilled and controlled migration promised by brexit ?
    Philip hates the free market
    I like the free market and anyone in our market in this country could have been tempted to do the job by getting a good pay rise.

    Immigration isn't "free market" since that's coming from another market, not this market. In case you missed it we left the Single Market.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Question for the PB Brexit Brain Trust

    How can a problem (shortage of HGV drivers) that was absolutely, definitely not caused by Brexit, be eased by abandoning part of Brexit?

    Take your time...

    You really are not getting this

    Brexit is seeing employers having to pay decent wages now low wage immigration has been stopped

    The country can now target need and issue visa for its requirements., not unlimited freedom of movement

    The very essence of Brexit
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 876
    edited September 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    Britain’s electronic passport gates failed this morning, bringing chaos and four-hour queues to Heathrow airport

    The problem is understood to be nationwide
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chaos-at-airports-as-electronic-passport-gates-crash-vcxtvxlmn?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1632488507

    Ooooooh, I've always wondered how the things worked. Presumably someone's just unplugged that dusty server in Priti's office.
  • Mr. Ace, hmm. Interesting to learn of that strategy. But Hong Kong did come with a date attached, whereas Taiwan does not.

    But if they think the strategy you outline will work then I imagine you're right they'll just sit it out.
  • MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Put it like that, are you surprised?

    Boris hates being unpopular. Freight problems would make Boris unpopular.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,204
    IshmaelZ said:

    Taz said:

    PJH said:

    Update on petrol and empty shelves in suburban east London- in my local Sainsbury's this morning, the usual spotty gaps as per recently on the shelves, generally not as full as say 6 months ago but most things available. The most obvious gap was on the pasta aisle. I was able to get everything I wanted but I did take the last bottle of Bishop's Finger (other beers remain available).

    Outside, quite a few cars queueing for fuel, presumably on the basis that if the government says there is no need to panic buy, then one should buy.

    I like a Bishop's Finger but it is an almost guaranteed hangover.
    You should try Harvey's of Sussex. The 'Harvey's Head' hangover is infamous. A doctor friend once gave been some prescription-only anti-migraine pills to counter it but they made no difference.
    Strongly disagree with that. I've drunk over 10,000 pints of Harvey's bitter over the last 20 years (10 pints a week, so 520 a year) and am yet to have a hangover - even when I consume the 10 pints a week over 1 or 2 days of that week. It's the red wine that gets me.....
    My homemade wine, banana and ginger, does give me a bad head
    If only all problems had so obvious a solution.
    The booze I make from cheap cartons of fruit juice, on the other hand, is fine.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,652

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Bad decision. 👎
    Why? We took back control and made a decision to ignore a key Brexit measure.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,163

    Farooq said:

    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Bad decision. 👎
    Why ?

    Surely this is the skilled and controlled migration promised by brexit ?
    Philip hates the free market
    I like the free market and anyone in our market in this country could have been tempted to do the job by getting a good pay rise.

    Immigration isn't "free market" since that's coming from another market, not this market. In case you missed it we left the Single Market.
    The free market needs to be regulated. I think everyone recognises that. Unregulated markets become distorted and usually end in tears for lots of people. Immigration within the EU was an unregulated free market for labour. It ended in tears for lots of people after the labour market became distorted.
  • eekeek Posts: 21,780
    edited September 2021

    Scott_xP said:

    Question for the PB Brexit Brain Trust

    How can a problem (shortage of HGV drivers) that was absolutely, definitely not caused by Brexit, be eased by abandoning part of Brexit?

    Take your time...

    Because a "shortage of drivers" is not a problem.

    Pay them enough and people will do the job.

    For self-entitled bosses like @RochdalePioneers no an 11% pay rise if you're struggling with a competitive sector and want to get people to return from other sectors is not a massive or shocking pay rise.
    Once again, you've missed the point. All those pay rises (40% in total I think) were not enough to bring people back into the HGV labour market - the current situation is price/wage inelastic.

    The only fix is to somehow increase supply which the increased pay may do over time. In the short term the only fix is to either suffer shortages or import qualified labour from abroad.

    You would note that my approach meant that you would need x UK drivers for every foreign driver - I suspect the scheme the Government comes up with will not be that clever and in the short term will reduce HGV driver wages.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 46,945

    Breaking

    BP - 20 out of our 1200 stations are closed today

    BP will be coining it in from the 1180 that are open then. Prices already hiked. To deter panic, like.....
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,135

    oooooh, I've always wondered how the things worked. Presumably someone's just unplugged that dusty server in Priti's office.

    You are closer than you think...

    In a previous life I was involved in the project to migrate part of that system into a real data centre, and out of the office building next to the runway at Heathrow it was in previously.
  • F1: Bottas top in both sessions. Rain possible on Saturday and Sunday.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,216
    I was in Tesco here at 9.30am this morning and their petrol station had a couple of cars queuing. When I came out as 9.40am, there was a queue of at least 50 to the main road. I think the tiny queue panicked passing motorists and they joined in.

    Later that day, I passed another Tesco petrol station up the road a mile or so. No problem at all getting petrol. No queue - no panic.

    People are jittery, the flames fanned by the newspapers.
  • DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    People need to calm down. The government will bring in army drivers if need be

    Are these the same Army drivers that are driving ambulances in Scotland?

    Or the same ones being sent to Northern Ireland?
    You do realise that the army has got tanker drivers, right? How stupid are you?
    After the tory cuts to the transport corps the RLC were left with one bulk fuel transport regiment (based in the 6 counties) so maybe 60 to 80 at a push if they stop doing absolute everything else, cancel all leave, etc.

    Logistics functions have recently been a prime target for cuts as they are not glamorous or famous so binning them doesn't create much backlash. Until we need them obviously.
    Christ.

    "You will not find it difficult to prove that battles, campaigns, and even wars have been won or lost primarily because of logistics.” – General Dwight D. Eisenhower.

    Will they never learn?
    General Omar Bradley famously said: “Amateurs talk strategy. Professionals talk logistics.”
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,304
    eek said:

    dixiedean said:

    Fact is. It's easy to blame the unemployed.
    But I'm still seeing adverts for zero hour contracts, as well as the Spar jobs I quoted above, offering only part-time hours, but needing to be available every hour God sends, 7 days a week, thus negating any advantage of part-time working for those with other responsibilities.
    If folk can't get staff, then how about contracts with regular, stated hours, sick pay, etc. Rather than expecting to have folk come in at your convenience and not pay them when it isn't.
    If you need someone desperately short term, there are always temp agencies.

    The fact is that until now there has always been people willing to do that sort of work. Until suddenly 1 day (now) there isn't at which point that store is going to have to either reduce their opening hours or try to find working patterns that workers will accept.

    In fact the nicest thing about this discussion is that it makes my vote for Brexit feel worthwhile, the poorly paid are now, once again, getting some say in their working conditions and pay.
    Well indeed. However, flexible working has always seemed, up until now, to mean workers need to have the flexibility of a Hatha Yoga teacher.
    Employers, however, haven't had to be arsed.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,652
    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Refer to my earlier post today. Would they tough out the rebalancing of the UK haulage industry or cave. They caved.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 15,028
    Scott_xP said:

    MaxPB said:

    You do realise that the army has got tanker drivers, right?

    Yes.

    And my question was are they already driving ambulances in Scotland, or in Northern Ireland?

    How stupid are you?
    Yes, Scott.

    All the ambulances in Scotland and NI are Heavy Goods Vehicles, and can't be helped by Army people with the appropriate other types of license to drive vehicles of transit van size.

    FFS, stop being such a euro-plank.

    Fortunately I have to go out now :smile:
  • TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Bad decision. 👎
    Why? We took back control and made a decision to ignore a key Brexit measure.
    Absolutely that can be done, but its the wrong thing to do. 👎

    Its hilarious seeking people like Rochdale say "but we offered an 11% pay rise" and wondering why those people who'd quit the sector due to terrible pay and conditions weren't flocking to rejoin the sector. Is that all in supposedly the greatest recruitment crisis you've faced you're offering that? 😂
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,204

    Scott_xP said:

    Question for the PB Brexit Brain Trust

    How can a problem (shortage of HGV drivers) that was absolutely, definitely not caused by Brexit, be eased by abandoning part of Brexit?

    Take your time...

    Because a "shortage of drivers" is not a problem.

    Pay them enough and people will do the job.

    For self-entitled bosses like @RochdalePioneers no an 11% pay rise if you're struggling with a competitive sector and want to get people to return from other sectors is not a massive or shocking pay rise.
    As has been said many have left the profession due to the IR35 changes, so further increases may lure them back or some of them. I think the employers have played a blinder here in conjunction with the Press. But we do have governance by public opinion and daily mail front page.

    Given the level of pay increases Rochdale said had been given and they were still losing staff they must have been paying some pretty low wages relative to the industry norm.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,163

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Put it like that, are you surprised?

    Boris hates being unpopular. Freight problems would make Boris unpopular.
    I'm not surprised. It's been coming for a few weeks. Let's see how many visas as issued and how many actually get used. It's not as though there isn't a truck driver shortage in the EU either and wages are pretty competitive in Germany and they're also struggling to fill the same roles as we are within the single labour market.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,928

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Put it like that, are you surprised?

    Boris hates being unpopular. Freight problems would make Boris unpopular.
    'Meanwhile an ally of Johnson said: “Boris is completely fed up with bad headlines on this and wants it sorted and doesn’t care about visa limits any more.”'

    (from the Graun feed quoting the FT)
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 16,556
    edited September 2021
    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Bad decision. 👎
    Why? We took back control and made a decision to ignore a key Brexit measure.
    Shades of the US trade agreement we now have the sovereignty to not want.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 4,529

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Breaking

    Key cabinet ministers meeting this afternoon to address driver shortages and visa scheme

    If I was a lorry driver who had just got my first decent wage increase for a long time I would be seriously pissed.

    There are 6m EU citizens who already have rights to be here. I would be astonished if this did not include tens of thousands of drivers. But if they are being offered better wages elsewhere that is where they will go.
    Why would they be pissed? This won't force down their wages, and it will improve conditions as the sector won't be under such massive pressure.
    Like it has improved conditions and wages over the last 20 years? They have finally got a negotiation position but that is apparently not acceptable and must now be undermined. I am sure that they should just be grateful, or something.

    If they are lucky the shortfall of drivers in the EU will mean that the competition is limited.
    We aren't talking about flooding the market, just a limited time visa. Which will fill roles that can't otherwise be filled. It can't drive down the wages of non-existent drivers.

    Again, paying the drivers more and improving working conditions is a Good Thing. But doing so will not fill the immediate term shortage of drivers because there are not enough drivers.
    Yes there are. There are more than enough drivers in this country, just many don't work in the sector due to poor pay and conditions.

    Do you have a figure for how many HGV qualified drivers there are in the country?

    Not to forget that it only takes a few weeks to become HGV qualified and there's over 32 million drivers in this country.
    Once again, can they start today - if not, it doesn't solve the immediate problem.
    I couldn't care less if the problem is solved immediately. Creative destruction is a good thing.

    But for the HGV-qualified yes they could start within a couple of weeks after giving notice for their existing employers if they're offered tempting enough pay and conditions - have you got a figure for how many of those there are in this country?
    "Creative destruction" is probably not a good thing if you are a government minister. You may enjoy the creative destruction of an autumn and winter of discontent but ministers are hardly going to sit back and let havoc reign.

    And no matter how many times you post the "it only takes a few weeks to train a drive" guff, it still isn't true in the real world.

    If what you post was true, it would have been done. And we wouldn't be having to "debate" this any more.
    Its not been done because the pay hasn't risen enough. Because the employers are convinced if they just sit back and let this drag out they can keep paying shit wages.
    If you say so. Our logistics firm has done pay rises of 2.5% then 12% then 11% then 8% since April and still can't keep drivers. Every time you say "just pay more" some other firm offers even more and they're back to square one. How much is "enough" and how do you know someone won't then beat that with "more than enough"?

    You have a shortage of drivers. So you increase wages. So you have a shortage of drivers. So you increase wages. So you have a shortage of drivers. etc etc etc. Unless more drivers are added to the labour pool there is no fix by wage increases because pay drivers a gazillion pounds and you still don't have enough.

    Unless you manage to attract in new drivers who can miraculously be trained in a week. Which you can't.

    It really is Blackadder teaching Baldrick adding when discussing this with you. Your theory is very nice but isn't the real world. If it was the real world then it would have been done to fix the problems.
    You think low rises not even in the teens of percent are "enough"? How preposterous.

    If you can't fill the vacancies then how about 40%? 80%? 100%?

    Whatever it takes until the vacancies are filled. Yes if you think an 11% rise is sufficient to get people to return to the sector I can see why you're struggling with this.
    To be fair, what RP recounts does come to 38% compounded (which I assume is what he means). That's fairly chunky - it covers, I think, my last 4-5 years of pay increases, in 5 months instead, including promotions and not accounting for inflation.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,163
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Refer to my earlier post today. Would they tough out the rebalancing of the UK haulage industry or cave. They caved.
    How long until restaurant owners want the same deal, or hoteliers, or pub chains? Boris bottled it.
  • TazTaz Posts: 6,204
    CD13 said:

    I was in Tesco here at 9.30am this morning and their petrol station had a couple of cars queuing. When I came out as 9.40am, there was a queue of at least 50 to the main road. I think the tiny queue panicked passing motorists and they joined in.

    Later that day, I passed another Tesco petrol station up the road a mile or so. No problem at all getting petrol. No queue - no panic.

    People are jittery, the flames fanned by the newspapers.

    All to drive further news stories and online clickbait.
  • eekeek Posts: 21,780
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Question for the PB Brexit Brain Trust

    How can a problem (shortage of HGV drivers) that was absolutely, definitely not caused by Brexit, be eased by abandoning part of Brexit?

    Take your time...

    Because a "shortage of drivers" is not a problem.

    Pay them enough and people will do the job.

    For self-entitled bosses like @RochdalePioneers no an 11% pay rise if you're struggling with a competitive sector and want to get people to return from other sectors is not a massive or shocking pay rise.
    As has been said many have left the profession due to the IR35 changes, so further increases may lure them back or some of them. I think the employers have played a blinder here in conjunction with the Press. But we do have governance by public opinion and daily mail front page.

    Given the level of pay increases Rochdale said had been given and they were still losing staff they must have been paying some pretty low wages relative to the industry norm.
    Nope, 40% is about what your typical HGV driver lost when IR35 kicked in.

    For foreign drivers it was a lot more than that as they used to use a limited company for 12-18 months and head home with what was left completely untaxed.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,652
    edited September 2021

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Bad decision. 👎
    Why? We took back control and made a decision to ignore a key Brexit measure.
    Shades of the US trade agreement we now have the sovereignty to not want.
    Not only not want - it was a dreadful idea in the first place.
  • Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Put it like that, are you surprised?

    Boris hates being unpopular. Freight problems would make Boris unpopular.
    'Meanwhile an ally of Johnson said: “Boris is completely fed up with bad headlines on this and wants it sorted and doesn’t care about visa limits any more.”'

    (from the Graun feed quoting the FT)
    With allies like that...
  • eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Question for the PB Brexit Brain Trust

    How can a problem (shortage of HGV drivers) that was absolutely, definitely not caused by Brexit, be eased by abandoning part of Brexit?

    Take your time...

    Because a "shortage of drivers" is not a problem.

    Pay them enough and people will do the job.

    For self-entitled bosses like @RochdalePioneers no an 11% pay rise if you're struggling with a competitive sector and want to get people to return from other sectors is not a massive or shocking pay rise.
    Once again, you've missed the point. All those pay rises (40% in total I think) were not enough to bring people back into the HGV labour market - the current situation is price/wage inelastic.

    The only fix is to somehow increase supply which the increased pay may do over time. In the short term the only fix is to either suffer shortages or import qualified labour from abroad.

    You would note that my approach meant that you would need x UK drivers for every foreign driver - I suspect the scheme the Government comes up with will not be that clever and in the short term will reduce HGV driver wages.
    Those pay rises are pathetic in the circumstances, no wonder it wasn't enough to bring people back.

    The 2.5% was piddly, I assume the 2.5% was just standard inflationary annual pay rise so not a real one. So we're really talking 12% then 11% then 8% so that's a compounded 34% pay rise.

    In supposedly the greatest recruitment crisis in years and you're supposed to be trying to recruit people back from other sectors or retirement and all you've offered is a 34% pay rise? What a joke.

    Try 40%. 80%. 100%. Whatever it takes. That is how you really resolve the problem.

    So yes pay people more is the solution. No wonder Rochdale was on here earlier complaining and saying "predatory" pay rises should be banned. How illiberal, banning "predatory" pay rises. Which really means other firms understood the gravity of the situation and were paying market rates so that was unfair because why should he have to pay market rates?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 4,529
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Put it like that, are you surprised?

    Boris hates being unpopular. Freight problems would make Boris unpopular.
    I'm not surprised. It's been coming for a few weeks. Let's see how many visas as issued and how many actually get used. It's not as though there isn't a truck driver shortage in the EU either and wages are pretty competitive in Germany and they're also struggling to fill the same roles as we are within the single labour market.
    Wait, I'm confused here.

    On the one hand, we have remainers claiming the driver crisis is due to Brexit and is leading to shortages and price rises.
    On the other hand, we have leavers claiming the rise in driver wages is a positive of Brexit.

    Now you're telling me that actually there's a driver shortage in the EU and letting EU workers in might not change much - are both sides spinning this for their own advantage?! :open_mouth:
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 10,423
    At least this fuel bollocks is keeping the It's a Knockout style channel crossings out of the headlines for a few days. Only 500 yesterday. GG Priti.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 1,485

    Scott_xP said:

    Question for the PB Brexit Brain Trust

    How can a problem (shortage of HGV drivers) that was absolutely, definitely not caused by Brexit, be eased by abandoning part of Brexit?

    Take your time...

    Because a "shortage of drivers" is not a problem.

    Pay them enough and people will do the job.

    For self-entitled bosses like @RochdalePioneers no an 11% pay rise if you're struggling with a competitive sector and want to get people to return from other sectors is not a massive or shocking pay rise.
    So you do not understand the words "inelasticity of labour supply". Since you do not understand this you continue to spout abject drivel. You are making a fool of yourself.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,216
    Mr L,

    We represent about 1.1% of global carbon dioxide emissions. If we headed for the caves and lived on grass for a short and nasty life, it would make bugger all difference.

    Ah, they say, people will follow suit if we start it. "Mr XI, the UK are pulling out all the stops to prevent global warming. What is our response?

    "Who? They are fools. Wake me when something important happens."
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 4,529

    Scott_xP said:

    Britain’s electronic passport gates failed this morning, bringing chaos and four-hour queues to Heathrow airport

    The problem is understood to be nationwide
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chaos-at-airports-as-electronic-passport-gates-crash-vcxtvxlmn?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1632488507

    Ooooooh, I've always wondered how the things worked. Presumably someone's just unplugged that dusty server in Priti's office.
    That's an unkind description of Matthew Rycroft
  • Cicero said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Question for the PB Brexit Brain Trust

    How can a problem (shortage of HGV drivers) that was absolutely, definitely not caused by Brexit, be eased by abandoning part of Brexit?

    Take your time...

    Because a "shortage of drivers" is not a problem.

    Pay them enough and people will do the job.

    For self-entitled bosses like @RochdalePioneers no an 11% pay rise if you're struggling with a competitive sector and want to get people to return from other sectors is not a massive or shocking pay rise.
    So you do not understand the words "inelasticity of labour supply". Since you do not understand this you continue to spout abject drivel. You are making a fool of yourself.
    I understand it. I disagree with it.

    There are plenty of people who are fully qualified but have retired or quit the profession because the pay and conditions are shit. A single 10% pay rise, or a 34% pay rise (which IR35 could claim all of apparently) is pathetic in the circumstances.

    As I said repeatedly, in America 'teamsters' can be on over $100k and they cope fine doing that. Its a difficult job that's away from home a lot - pay whatever it takes to get people doing it. Don't just take the easy way out.
  • MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Refer to my earlier post today. Would they tough out the rebalancing of the UK haulage industry or cave. They caved.
    How long until restaurant owners want the same deal, or hoteliers, or pub chains? Boris bottled it.
    Single Market membership or not - we're still in a market with Europe. The only difference is that Brexit tied our arms and legs behind our back. If the other examples you cite come about then that will simply be market pressures reasserting themselves. The 'idea' that we could abandon Europe and base ourselves in the Pacific was seriously crackpot stuff.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,928
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Refer to my earlier post today. Would they tough out the rebalancing of the UK haulage industry or cave. They caved.
    How long until restaurant owners want the same deal, or hoteliers, or pub chains? Boris bottled it.

    Won't take long, as the food producers and farmers and fishing firms are already at it

    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    "Meanwhile, the government does appear more receptive to the possibility of extending its agricultural seasonal worker programme, which allowed for 30,000 foreigners to come to the UK to help with the harvest.

    Farming and food groups have been lobbying for an expansion of the scheme, warning that they are already scaling back planting plans for 2022, and without more workers UK food output will fall and prices rise."


  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,652
    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Refer to my earlier post today. Would they tough out the rebalancing of the UK haulage industry or cave. They caved.
    How long until restaurant owners want the same deal, or hoteliers, or pub chains? Boris bottled it.

    Won't take long, as the food producers and farmers and fishing firms are already at it

    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    "Meanwhile, the government does appear more receptive to the possibility of extending its agricultural seasonal worker programme, which allowed for 30,000 foreigners to come to the UK to help with the harvest.

    Farming and food groups have been lobbying for an expansion of the scheme, warning that they are already scaling back planting plans for 2022, and without more workers UK food output will fall and prices rise."


    It's intoxicating all this control we have taken back.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,245
    Scott_xP said:

    Question for the PB Brexit Brain Trust

    How can a problem (shortage of HGV drivers) that was absolutely, definitely not caused by Brexit, be eased by abandoning part of Brexit?

    Take your time...

    It increases the supply of labour to the detriment of the indigenous supply. Next?
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,640
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Refer to my earlier post today. Would they tough out the rebalancing of the UK haulage industry or cave. They caved.
    How long until restaurant owners want the same deal, or hoteliers, or pub chains? Boris bottled it.
    The problem is in the government thinking that they know better than employers which workers are in demand.
  • Macron and Johnson spoke today!

    Élysée readout: “Boris Johnson expressed his intention to reestablish cooperation between France & the UK, in line with our values & our shared interests (climate, IndoPacific, CT). The President responded that he was waiting for his proposals"

    Here's the Downing St readout, rather different in tone


    https://twitter.com/estwebber/status/1441392720321265676?s=20
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,245
    TOPPING said:

    Carnyx said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Refer to my earlier post today. Would they tough out the rebalancing of the UK haulage industry or cave. They caved.
    How long until restaurant owners want the same deal, or hoteliers, or pub chains? Boris bottled it.

    Won't take long, as the food producers and farmers and fishing firms are already at it

    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    "Meanwhile, the government does appear more receptive to the possibility of extending its agricultural seasonal worker programme, which allowed for 30,000 foreigners to come to the UK to help with the harvest.

    Farming and food groups have been lobbying for an expansion of the scheme, warning that they are already scaling back planting plans for 2022, and without more workers UK food output will fall and prices rise."


    It's intoxicating all this control we have taken back.
    You on the home made wine too? 😜
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited September 2021
    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Refer to my earlier post today. Would they tough out the rebalancing of the UK haulage industry or cave. They caved.
    How long until restaurant owners want the same deal, or hoteliers, or pub chains? Boris bottled it.
    The problem is in the government thinking that they know better than employers which workers are in demand.
    Agreed.

    If you're going to have free movement then a sensible way to do it was posited earlier "free movement for anyone PAYE over £50k". Or something along those lines.

    But I wouldn't restrict it to Europe, I'd have it global.

    Let the high-skilled, high-wage jobs come here not deflate our economy with minimum wage jobs.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,034
    edited September 2021

    I see some of the PB Tories are frustrated to see the government is u-turning.

    The more enlightened, like Big G, already have their new talking point ready that it is precisely Brexit that allows us to get a workaround to Brexit in the event that Brexit causes a problem.

    Flexibility in political views is quite useful but joking apart, Brexit is driving up wages while the new visa quota scheme will see demand met from abroad, not just the EU, but with higher wages than freedom of movement would alllow
  • eekeek Posts: 21,780

    Cicero said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Question for the PB Brexit Brain Trust

    How can a problem (shortage of HGV drivers) that was absolutely, definitely not caused by Brexit, be eased by abandoning part of Brexit?

    Take your time...

    Because a "shortage of drivers" is not a problem.

    Pay them enough and people will do the job.

    For self-entitled bosses like @RochdalePioneers no an 11% pay rise if you're struggling with a competitive sector and want to get people to return from other sectors is not a massive or shocking pay rise.
    So you do not understand the words "inelasticity of labour supply". Since you do not understand this you continue to spout abject drivel. You are making a fool of yourself.
    I understand it. I disagree with it.

    There are plenty of people who are fully qualified but have retired or quit the profession because the pay and conditions are shit. A single 10% pay rise, or a 34% pay rise (which IR35 could claim all of apparently) is pathetic in the circumstances.

    As I said repeatedly, in America 'teamsters' can be on over $100k and they cope fine doing that. Its a difficult job that's away from home a lot - pay whatever it takes to get people doing it. Don't just take the easy way out.
    again - are you 100% sure those people can come back and start work immediately - as I suspect 90%+ of them can't
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,135
    DavidL said:

    It increases the supply of labour to the detriment of the indigenous supply.

    Confirming it was caused by Brexit.

    Not the answer to the question I asked, but OK
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 1,519
    When will the media learn their lessons about talking about panic buying? They are the cause of it.

    If a few BPs have to close because a shortage of drivers do not put it as your main news headline. As a result of them putting it as a main story, every driver who gets less than 3/4 full will be stopping in at the petrol stations. This just makes things worse.

    We saw exactly the same with loo roll last year. There was more than enough to go around but when you had people going in and literally filling their entire trolley with the stuff then there won't be.

    Absolute madness. I despise people who really have no need to make long or regular journeys filling up their vehicles just in case. I despise the media more for causing this.
  • eekeek Posts: 21,780

    I see some of the PB Tories are frustrated to see the government is u-turning.

    The more enlightened, like Big G, already have their new talking point ready that it is precisely Brexit that allows us to get a workaround to Brexit in the event that Brexit causes a problem.

    I'm not a PB Tory but I'm happy with the Governments allow drivers to come in, but the devil will be in the detail.

    And Boris doesn't do detail so the plan will be a half baked hack rather than a sensible plan that encourages the industry to fix it's industry wide recruitment and retention issues.
  • eek said:

    Cicero said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Question for the PB Brexit Brain Trust

    How can a problem (shortage of HGV drivers) that was absolutely, definitely not caused by Brexit, be eased by abandoning part of Brexit?

    Take your time...

    Because a "shortage of drivers" is not a problem.

    Pay them enough and people will do the job.

    For self-entitled bosses like @RochdalePioneers no an 11% pay rise if you're struggling with a competitive sector and want to get people to return from other sectors is not a massive or shocking pay rise.
    So you do not understand the words "inelasticity of labour supply". Since you do not understand this you continue to spout abject drivel. You are making a fool of yourself.
    I understand it. I disagree with it.

    There are plenty of people who are fully qualified but have retired or quit the profession because the pay and conditions are shit. A single 10% pay rise, or a 34% pay rise (which IR35 could claim all of apparently) is pathetic in the circumstances.

    As I said repeatedly, in America 'teamsters' can be on over $100k and they cope fine doing that. Its a difficult job that's away from home a lot - pay whatever it takes to get people doing it. Don't just take the easy way out.
    again - are you 100% sure those people can come back and start work immediately - as I suspect 90%+ of them can't
    I don't know and I don't care. I'm sure there are many who can start work immediately and for those who can't whatever re-training or re-testing is required should be made available to them.

    We've been speaking about this for six months. If a serious and significant pay rise had been offered (which Rochdale has confirmed was not the case with his logisitics firm) that was sufficient to tempt people back then how much re-training and re-testing could have been done over the last six months?

    This is a problem 100% caused by a refusal to pay enough. Nothing more than that.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,245
    Dura_Ace said:

    At least this fuel bollocks is keeping the It's a Knockout style channel crossings out of the headlines for a few days. Only 500 yesterday. GG Priti.

    It's almost as if our energy cuts, mass starvation and economic chaos is not putting them off. Haven't they heard?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,163
    eek said:

    Cicero said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Question for the PB Brexit Brain Trust

    How can a problem (shortage of HGV drivers) that was absolutely, definitely not caused by Brexit, be eased by abandoning part of Brexit?

    Take your time...

    Because a "shortage of drivers" is not a problem.

    Pay them enough and people will do the job.

    For self-entitled bosses like @RochdalePioneers no an 11% pay rise if you're struggling with a competitive sector and want to get people to return from other sectors is not a massive or shocking pay rise.
    So you do not understand the words "inelasticity of labour supply". Since you do not understand this you continue to spout abject drivel. You are making a fool of yourself.
    I understand it. I disagree with it.

    There are plenty of people who are fully qualified but have retired or quit the profession because the pay and conditions are shit. A single 10% pay rise, or a 34% pay rise (which IR35 could claim all of apparently) is pathetic in the circumstances.

    As I said repeatedly, in America 'teamsters' can be on over $100k and they cope fine doing that. Its a difficult job that's away from home a lot - pay whatever it takes to get people doing it. Don't just take the easy way out.
    again - are you 100% sure those people can come back and start work immediately - as I suspect 90%+ of them can't
    Yes, aren't licence renewal tests also massively backlogged as well? Also the absolute payrise for them may only be £5-7k take home vs delivering for Sainsbury's or Amazon which allows them to go home every evening to spend time with the family.

    There's no easy solution to this issue, truck driving is a shit job. It's like working on an oil platform. No one really wants to do it so paying high wages is the only way to get anyone interested.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,646
    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Refer to my earlier post today. Would they tough out the rebalancing of the UK haulage industry or cave. They caved.
    How long until restaurant owners want the same deal, or hoteliers, or pub chains? Boris bottled it.
    The problem is in the government thinking that they know better than employers which workers are in demand.
    Given that employers havent trained enough people or paid those they have sufficient to retain them, why on earth do we think employers know best ? Employers bet the farm on a system that moved core skills outside the UK and have now been caught out horribly when a major crisis rolled over the horizon.
  • Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    It increases the supply of labour to the detriment of the indigenous supply.

    Confirming it was caused by Brexit.

    Not the answer to the question I asked, but OK
    I don't think any Brexiteer has denied people getting pay rises was caused by Brexit.

    I think what's been denied is that is a "problem".

    You are Lord Rose and I claim £5
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,640
    AlistairM said:

    When will the media learn their lessons about talking about panic buying? They are the cause of it.

    If a few BPs have to close because a shortage of drivers do not put it as your main news headline. As a result of them putting it as a main story, every driver who gets less than 3/4 full will be stopping in at the petrol stations. This just makes things worse.

    We saw exactly the same with loo roll last year. There was more than enough to go around but when you had people going in and literally filling their entire trolley with the stuff then there won't be.

    Absolute madness. I despise people who really have no need to make long or regular journeys filling up their vehicles just in case. I despise the media more for causing this.

    Bring back ration books!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,245
    edited September 2021

    Macron and Johnson spoke today!

    Élysée readout: “Boris Johnson expressed his intention to reestablish cooperation between France & the UK, in line with our values & our shared interests (climate, IndoPacific, CT). The President responded that he was waiting for his proposals"

    Here's the Downing St readout, rather different in tone


    https://twitter.com/estwebber/status/1441392720321265676?s=20

    I am almost tempted to speculate that Boris insisted in conducting the entire conversation in his Franglais, just for the LOLs.

    “prenez un grip” and “donnez-moi un break” . Genius.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 36,652

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Refer to my earlier post today. Would they tough out the rebalancing of the UK haulage industry or cave. They caved.
    How long until restaurant owners want the same deal, or hoteliers, or pub chains? Boris bottled it.
    The problem is in the government thinking that they know better than employers which workers are in demand.
    Agreed.

    If you're going to have free movement then a sensible way to do it was posited earlier "free movement for anyone PAYE over £50k". Or something along those lines.

    But I wouldn't restrict it to Europe, I'd have it global.

    Let the high-skilled, high-wage jobs come here not deflate our economy with minimum wage jobs.
    Why £50k?
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,431
    Scott_xP said:

    MaxPB said:

    You do realise that the army has got tanker drivers, right?

    Yes.

    And my question was are they already driving ambulances in Scotland, or in Northern Ireland?

    How stupid are you?
    The army has 357 close support tankers, less all those overseas/on active duty. I'd be surprised if their pool of available tanker drivers would make that much difference.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,928
    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    At least this fuel bollocks is keeping the It's a Knockout style channel crossings out of the headlines for a few days. Only 500 yesterday. GG Priti.

    It's almost as if our energy cuts, mass starvation and economic chaos is not putting them off. Haven't they heard?
    They don't read the Daily Mail or the P&J.
  • TOPPING said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Refer to my earlier post today. Would they tough out the rebalancing of the UK haulage industry or cave. They caved.
    How long until restaurant owners want the same deal, or hoteliers, or pub chains? Boris bottled it.
    The problem is in the government thinking that they know better than employers which workers are in demand.
    Agreed.

    If you're going to have free movement then a sensible way to do it was posited earlier "free movement for anyone PAYE over £50k". Or something along those lines.

    But I wouldn't restrict it to Europe, I'd have it global.

    Let the high-skilled, high-wage jobs come here not deflate our economy with minimum wage jobs.
    Why £50k?
    I didn't say it, someone else did, I was quoting them.

    While I believe in flat taxes, under our current system it kind of makes sense to be offering immigration to those on higher rate tax incomes.
  • If the PM had listened to voices telling him that ending free movement and cutting immigration for ideological reasons - as well as being wrong in principle - would lead to critical labour shortages, this vital but utterly humiliating climbdown wouldn’t have been necessary.

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1441394938260770818?s=20

    Just as well she's got nothing better to do.....
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 45,245
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    At least this fuel bollocks is keeping the It's a Knockout style channel crossings out of the headlines for a few days. Only 500 yesterday. GG Priti.

    It's almost as if our energy cuts, mass starvation and economic chaos is not putting them off. Haven't they heard?
    They don't read the Daily Mail or the P&J.
    Or even worse, they don't listen to @Scott_P . It's truly shocking.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,640

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Refer to my earlier post today. Would they tough out the rebalancing of the UK haulage industry or cave. They caved.
    How long until restaurant owners want the same deal, or hoteliers, or pub chains? Boris bottled it.
    The problem is in the government thinking that they know better than employers which workers are in demand.
    Given that employers havent trained enough people or paid those they have sufficient to retain them, why on earth do we think employers know best ? Employers bet the farm on a system that moved core skills outside the UK and have now been caught out horribly when a major crisis rolled over the horizon.
    Looking forward to hearing your 5 year plan, Chairman Al.
  • Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    It increases the supply of labour to the detriment of the indigenous supply.

    Confirming it was caused by Brexit.

    Not the answer to the question I asked, but OK
    The ending of freedom of movement through Brexit has seen wage increases, especially for the lower paid by the ending of cheap labour and has allowed us to tailor our immigration to attract higher paid workers into our economy where we have need

    It is the success story of Brexit and I find it hard to believe that deep down you cannot just accept this

    It can be said that Junckers should have conceded to Cameron on freedom of movement and to be honest the referendum would not have happened and we would still be in the EU if a compromise had been reached
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,478
    .
    Thank goodness for Brexit then @williamglenn .
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 27,928

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Refer to my earlier post today. Would they tough out the rebalancing of the UK haulage industry or cave. They caved.
    How long until restaurant owners want the same deal, or hoteliers, or pub chains? Boris bottled it.
    The problem is in the government thinking that they know better than employers which workers are in demand.
    Given that employers havent trained enough people or paid those they have sufficient to retain them, why on earth do we think employers know best ? Employers bet the farm on a system that moved core skills outside the UK and have now been caught out horribly when a major crisis rolled over the horizon.
    Not as if the DfT were doing their best to keep testing the necessary skills, though.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,304
    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    Cicero said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Question for the PB Brexit Brain Trust

    How can a problem (shortage of HGV drivers) that was absolutely, definitely not caused by Brexit, be eased by abandoning part of Brexit?

    Take your time...

    Because a "shortage of drivers" is not a problem.

    Pay them enough and people will do the job.

    For self-entitled bosses like @RochdalePioneers no an 11% pay rise if you're struggling with a competitive sector and want to get people to return from other sectors is not a massive or shocking pay rise.
    So you do not understand the words "inelasticity of labour supply". Since you do not understand this you continue to spout abject drivel. You are making a fool of yourself.
    I understand it. I disagree with it.

    There are plenty of people who are fully qualified but have retired or quit the profession because the pay and conditions are shit. A single 10% pay rise, or a 34% pay rise (which IR35 could claim all of apparently) is pathetic in the circumstances.

    As I said repeatedly, in America 'teamsters' can be on over $100k and they cope fine doing that. Its a difficult job that's away from home a lot - pay whatever it takes to get people doing it. Don't just take the easy way out.
    again - are you 100% sure those people can come back and start work immediately - as I suspect 90%+ of them can't
    Yes, aren't licence renewal tests also massively backlogged as well? Also the absolute payrise for them may only be £5-7k take home vs delivering for Sainsbury's or Amazon which allows them to go home every evening to spend time with the family.

    There's no easy solution to this issue, truck driving is a shit job. It's like working on an oil platform. No one really wants to do it so paying high wages is the only way to get anyone interested.
    I believe there is a shortage of qualified examiners.
    Not really surprising.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,063
    TOPPING said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Refer to my earlier post today. Would they tough out the rebalancing of the UK haulage industry or cave. They caved.
    How long until restaurant owners want the same deal, or hoteliers, or pub chains? Boris bottled it.
    The problem is in the government thinking that they know better than employers which workers are in demand.
    Agreed.

    If you're going to have free movement then a sensible way to do it was posited earlier "free movement for anyone PAYE over £50k". Or something along those lines.

    But I wouldn't restrict it to Europe, I'd have it global.

    Let the high-skilled, high-wage jobs come here not deflate our economy with minimum wage jobs.
    Why £50k?
    I semi-seriously suggested it as a compromise between no visas and letting rip.

    So for a shortage, you get your HGV drivers rapidly. When the UK labour market for HGV drivers stabilises, then it won't be back at wages & conditions that discourage drivers to remain in the industry.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,646
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Refer to my earlier post today. Would they tough out the rebalancing of the UK haulage industry or cave. They caved.
    How long until restaurant owners want the same deal, or hoteliers, or pub chains? Boris bottled it.
    The problem is in the government thinking that they know better than employers which workers are in demand.
    Given that employers havent trained enough people or paid those they have sufficient to retain them, why on earth do we think employers know best ? Employers bet the farm on a system that moved core skills outside the UK and have now been caught out horribly when a major crisis rolled over the horizon.
    Looking forward to hearing your 5 year plan, Chairman Al.
    5 year plans are a nonsense except in infrastructure
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 36,163
    TOPPING said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Refer to my earlier post today. Would they tough out the rebalancing of the UK haulage industry or cave. They caved.
    How long until restaurant owners want the same deal, or hoteliers, or pub chains? Boris bottled it.
    The problem is in the government thinking that they know better than employers which workers are in demand.
    Agreed.

    If you're going to have free movement then a sensible way to do it was posited earlier "free movement for anyone PAYE over £50k". Or something along those lines.

    But I wouldn't restrict it to Europe, I'd have it global.

    Let the high-skilled, high-wage jobs come here not deflate our economy with minimum wage jobs.
    Why £50k?
    Makes them a higher rate taxpayer I guess? I'd set it differently and have a sliding scale based on how many dependents are also coming with them but start from a lower base of say £30k. A single man or woman coming to the UK and doing a £30k job is immediately a net contributor, a person coming to the UK with a spouse and three kids probably won't be even at £50k because of education and healthcare provision within the welfare state.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 28,135
    If the Government considers that relaxing immigration rules is part of the solution isn't that also an admission that tightening immigration rules was part of the problem?
    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1441386473794588679
  • Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Refer to my earlier post today. Would they tough out the rebalancing of the UK haulage industry or cave. They caved.
    How long until restaurant owners want the same deal, or hoteliers, or pub chains? Boris bottled it.
    The problem is in the government thinking that they know better than employers which workers are in demand.
    Given that employers havent trained enough people or paid those they have sufficient to retain them, why on earth do we think employers know best ? Employers bet the farm on a system that moved core skills outside the UK and have now been caught out horribly when a major crisis rolled over the horizon.
    Not as if the DfT were doing their best to keep testing the necessary skills, though.
    I haven't seen a single spokesperson for a firm come on the media and say that they've got recruits but they can't get tests for them.

    What I have seen is people whine that pay rises are happening so we need immigration.

    If we'd had six months of people saying "we need more tests" instead of "we need more low wage immigration" this would have been a very different conversation.
This discussion has been closed.