Completely off-topic: my autistic train-obsessed nephew has just sent me a video of a train going past captioned 'Deltic!'. Thanks to previous discussions on PB, I was able to reply semi-knowledgeably rather than simply asking "what's a Deltic?"
(I'm not yet equipped to judge whether it is, indeed, a Deltic, but I think I'll take his word for it)
Has he seen this?
I find it almost hypnotic...
I shall forward the wiki-page Crikey, I'm going to look like a really know some stuff!
I shall try and find out if there is a good page on the Compound Deltic.
This was a weird lovechild of the Napier Nomad and the Deltic - So a diesel engine strapped to a jet engine.....
A classic of the kind of British engineering where the correct response is to back away slowly, so as not to scare the lunatics who were coming up with these ideas.
WAsn't the Nomad already a love child of a diesel IC engine and turbojet? Or were the diesels swapped?
So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .
Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!
Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
The problem with your argument is that it's not the freeloaders who are falling out.
Its the greater hassle fuel and coolchain hauliers who have immediate problems because the extra money they pay is now not worth the extra hassle.
The biggie was when the pay fiesta hit the tanker drivers. I assume that Hoyer et al have responded with their own pay rises so they will recruit drivers back which will fill the gaps. Until the next round of poaching when we go back to shortages again and again.
Thing is, if you are an ADR driver the country really needs you driving fuel and toxic chemicals, not sofas. "Just pay more" is fine and they will and are. But as you lose and then poach back drivers you have gaps and that means fuel shortages.
Then maybe don't lose them. Maybe pay them more in the first place and when they hand in their notice, maybe stop and think "oh I'll need to pay even more than this".
If you keep having pathetically small pay rises under the circumstances then yes that will be a problem. Its a problem you need to fix though not have the state fix it for you.
38% is "pathetically small"?
How much should a pay rise be to (a) keep existing drivers and (b) cover any and all possible pay rises by competitors? I've managed a lot of salary budgets and recruited talent where you have to pay to keep them. Never managed a speculative +80% or +180% just in case the rival down the road increases their offer.
If you haven't filled your vacancies then yes it is.
The benchmark I'm using is I know truckers in the States can be on over $100k per annum. What did your piddly 38% (34% if we exclude the 2.5% inflation only rise) pay rise in the circumstances increase pay upto out of curiosity?
"Your piddly 38% pay rise"
Careful. Your trolling about this is very high grade but you've now become complacent. And this is just to see how much you can get away with. Don't blow it.
I'm not trolling.
For months now Rochdale and others have been saying that there's this humongous crisis in the industry with 100,000 extra staff needed. The refrain time and again was pay more to get the vacancies paid.
I for one did not mean a 38% pay rise as being the limit for that. Yes if it means a 100% pay rise or more to fill the vacancies then JFDI applies.
If you want to increase the pool of drivers by 33% then I see no reason why they must be paid less than MPs for instance.
But you can't do that without more qualified drivers. We voted Leave in 2016. What effort or planning was put into this problem between then and the past few weeks? Absolutely bugger all that's what.
Luckily it only takes a few weeks to qualify a driver.
If there's bottlenecks at testing stations they should be fixed. No reason testing shouldn't be happening seven days a week for twelve hours a day if demand is there.
Completely off-topic: my autistic train-obsessed nephew has just sent me a video of a train going past captioned 'Deltic!'. Thanks to previous discussions on PB, I was able to reply semi-knowledgeably rather than simply asking "what's a Deltic?"
(I'm not yet equipped to judge whether it is, indeed, a Deltic, but I think I'll take his word for it)
Has he seen this?
I find it almost hypnotic...
I shall forward the wiki-page Crikey, I'm going to look like a really know some stuff!
I shall try and find out if there is a good page on the Compound Deltic.
This was a weird lovechild of the Napier Nomad and the Deltic - So a diesel engine strapped to a jet engine.....
A classic of the kind of British engineering where the correct response is to back away slowly, so as not to scare the lunatics who were coming up with these ideas.
WAsn't the Nomad already a love child of a diesel IC engine and turbojet? Or were the diesels swapped?
Yes - the Compound Deltic was a Deltic with a recovery turbine (closely related to the turbine for the Nomad 2) bolted on.
There was even a planned version with fuel injection into the turbine exhaust... yes, a diesel engine bolted to a jet with an afterburner.
Completely off-topic: my autistic train-obsessed nephew has just sent me a video of a train going past captioned 'Deltic!'. Thanks to previous discussions on PB, I was able to reply semi-knowledgeably rather than simply asking "what's a Deltic?"
(I'm not yet equipped to judge whether it is, indeed, a Deltic, but I think I'll take his word for it)
Has he seen this?
I find it almost hypnotic...
I shall forward the wiki-page Crikey, I'm going to look like a really know some stuff!
I don't know if you saw my posting the last time we discussed Deltics - I mentioned I'd recently found the Deltic engine manual for Ton class minesweepers in the papers of my late father (ex Navy).
I can't remember whether it was you or OnlyLivingBoy (or both) who enlightened me when I asked in an earlier discusson what a Deltic was. Think I missed your message about the engine manual though.
Either way, even though I'm not a train (or large diesel engine?) buff, I'm finding this diversion more pleasant and interesting than the circular debate over the, as yet unclear, consequences of Brexit for those in low paid jobs.
Completely off-topic: my autistic train-obsessed nephew has just sent me a video of a train going past captioned 'Deltic!'. Thanks to previous discussions on PB, I was able to reply semi-knowledgeably rather than simply asking "what's a Deltic?"
(I'm not yet equipped to judge whether it is, indeed, a Deltic, but I think I'll take his word for it)
Has he seen this?
I find it almost hypnotic...
I shall forward the wiki-page Crikey, I'm going to look like a really know some stuff!
I don't know if you saw my posting the last time we discussed Deltics - I mentioned I'd recently found the Deltic engine manual for Ton class minesweepers in the papers of my late father (ex Navy).
Give me a 37 or 45 any day... Or a pair of twenties...
33 for me too, but really 59 - the US built ones that came to work the local quarries, and then morphed into the 66.
So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .
Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!
Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
The problem with your argument is that it's not the freeloaders who are falling out.
Its the greater hassle fuel and coolchain hauliers who have immediate problems because the extra money they pay is now not worth the extra hassle.
The biggie was when the pay fiesta hit the tanker drivers. I assume that Hoyer et al have responded with their own pay rises so they will recruit drivers back which will fill the gaps. Until the next round of poaching when we go back to shortages again and again.
Thing is, if you are an ADR driver the country really needs you driving fuel and toxic chemicals, not sofas. "Just pay more" is fine and they will and are. But as you lose and then poach back drivers you have gaps and that means fuel shortages.
Then maybe don't lose them. Maybe pay them more in the first place and when they hand in their notice, maybe stop and think "oh I'll need to pay even more than this".
If you keep having pathetically small pay rises under the circumstances then yes that will be a problem. Its a problem you need to fix though not have the state fix it for you.
38% is "pathetically small"?
How much should a pay rise be to (a) keep existing drivers and (b) cover any and all possible pay rises by competitors? I've managed a lot of salary budgets and recruited talent where you have to pay to keep them. Never managed a speculative +80% or +180% just in case the rival down the road increases their offer.
If you haven't filled your vacancies then yes it is.
The benchmark I'm using is I know truckers in the States can be on over $100k per annum. What did your piddly 38% (34% if we exclude the 2.5% inflation only rise) pay rise in the circumstances increase pay upto out of curiosity?
"Your piddly 38% pay rise"
Careful. Your trolling about this is very high grade but you've now become complacent. And this is just to see how much you can get away with. Don't blow it.
I'm not trolling.
For months now Rochdale and others have been saying that there's this humongous crisis in the industry with 100,000 extra staff needed. The refrain time and again was pay more to get the vacancies paid.
I for one did not mean a 38% pay rise as being the limit for that. Yes if it means a 100% pay rise or more to fill the vacancies then JFDI applies.
If you want to increase the pool of drivers by 33% then I see no reason why they must be paid less than MPs for instance.
Time for some back of the envelope maths.
Give 300k truck drivers £40k salary increases is an extra £12bn filtering through to costs for UK plc. Over £400 per household.
And that is just one industry, there will be other wage rises we have to fund too, we have tax increases, energy increases as well.
Something is going to break, and it will be government promises around controlling migration.
It does have to be said that immigration figured at the top of all Leave voters' surveys. The vote was around the time of the European migration crisis, and that's what gave Leave the edge and lifted Europe to a position of priority in voters' concerns it had never been. Hence our debate is still frozen to a certain extent in 2015, and Theresa May's red lines the following year that got us into this tricky pickle.
This is why debating or putting arguments made no difference to them. They hate the fact that foreigners over here are doing their jobs. Now the foreigners aren't here, some of them are going to have to get out and do their jobs.
The only ones unhappy are Remoaners who've moved from arguing that "this wasn't keeping pay rates down" to arguing "look at pay rates going up, won't somebody think of inflation"
Other than zeal of the convert Remoaner Rochdale I haven't seen even a single Leaver objecting to people getting pay rises.
Where has @RochdalePioneers objected to pay rises, his point has been that it wouldn’t solve the lack of HGV drivers and it hasn’t. All it has done is create merry-go-round of drivers moving to another company for a bit more pay.
The one thing it hasn’t done (which you claim it should have done) is bring retired drivers back into the industry.
We don't know that. Serious pay rises haven't happened yet it seems.
Show me a job vacancy for an HGV driver with a starting salary for more than an MPs starting salary and let's see how long it goes unfilled for.
5 minutes? But the successful applicant is a -1 with another provider. In theory, over time, we will attract more people in who want to drive trucks. But here and now you could pay £50 an hour and still be short of drivers because there is a shortage of drivers.
Well, you can't pay £50 an hour as the companies would go pop, but in theory....
I do like the fuck the bosses up the workers reincarnated Red Robbo act though Philip.
Right so high salaries haven't been offered yet.
And the -1 is someone else's problem. Maybe at that salary it's -1 retired or -1 in a different sector.
Either way HGV drivers in the UK even after months of us saying pay them more are getting a rough deal compared to eg MPs. Or if you don't like that comparison, HGV drivers in the free market USA.
Drove past a Shell garage in rural Bucks situated on a roundabout just now. Chaos ensuing as people were queuing to get in this blocking said roundabout from some directions.
Prediction: In 5 days time the panic buying will be forgotten as everyone will have full thanks and forecourts will have been refilled.
My disdain for those panic buying who have no need knows no bounds.
I agree, but only because I filled up by chance a few days ago!
So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .
Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!
Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
The problem with your argument is that it's not the freeloaders who are falling out.
Its the greater hassle fuel and coolchain hauliers who have immediate problems because the extra money they pay is now not worth the extra hassle.
The biggie was when the pay fiesta hit the tanker drivers. I assume that Hoyer et al have responded with their own pay rises so they will recruit drivers back which will fill the gaps. Until the next round of poaching when we go back to shortages again and again.
Thing is, if you are an ADR driver the country really needs you driving fuel and toxic chemicals, not sofas. "Just pay more" is fine and they will and are. But as you lose and then poach back drivers you have gaps and that means fuel shortages.
Then maybe don't lose them. Maybe pay them more in the first place and when they hand in their notice, maybe stop and think "oh I'll need to pay even more than this".
If you keep having pathetically small pay rises under the circumstances then yes that will be a problem. Its a problem you need to fix though not have the state fix it for you.
38% is "pathetically small"?
How much should a pay rise be to (a) keep existing drivers and (b) cover any and all possible pay rises by competitors? I've managed a lot of salary budgets and recruited talent where you have to pay to keep them. Never managed a speculative +80% or +180% just in case the rival down the road increases their offer.
If you haven't filled your vacancies then yes it is.
The benchmark I'm using is I know truckers in the States can be on over $100k per annum. What did your piddly 38% (34% if we exclude the 2.5% inflation only rise) pay rise in the circumstances increase pay upto out of curiosity?
"Your piddly 38% pay rise"
Careful. Your trolling about this is very high grade but you've now become complacent. And this is just to see how much you can get away with. Don't blow it.
I'm not trolling.
For months now Rochdale and others have been saying that there's this humongous crisis in the industry with 100,000 extra staff needed. The refrain time and again was pay more to get the vacancies paid.
I for one did not mean a 38% pay rise as being the limit for that. Yes if it means a 100% pay rise or more to fill the vacancies then JFDI applies.
If you want to increase the pool of drivers by 33% then I see no reason why they must be paid less than MPs for instance.
But you can't do that without more qualified drivers. We voted Leave in 2016. What effort or planning was put into this problem between then and the past few weeks? Absolutely bugger all that's what.
Luckily it only takes a few weeks to qualify a driver.
If there's bottlenecks at testing stations they should be fixed. No reason testing shouldn't be happening seven days a week for twelve hours a day if demand is there.
Examiners are required - and there are only a limited number of those
Can I once again ask that you think before you post - it's like dealing with a new trainee, who alothugh full of ideas, doesn't realise that they have all been suggested / tried 50 times....
A real swing away from the parties on the left in the final days - the governing coalition is down about four points whether it will just be a question of swapping the Left-Green Movement of the current Prime Minister for the growing Reform Party. Independence +Progressive+Reform looks to have a majority.
Reform has only been about since May 2016 and in that's year Althing election went into coalition with Independence but lost three seats in the following year's election and went into opposition.
I suspect if they do well they could well either formally join or simply support an Independence-Progressive Government
So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .
Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!
Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
The problem with your argument is that it's not the freeloaders who are falling out.
Its the greater hassle fuel and coolchain hauliers who have immediate problems because the extra money they pay is now not worth the extra hassle.
The biggie was when the pay fiesta hit the tanker drivers. I assume that Hoyer et al have responded with their own pay rises so they will recruit drivers back which will fill the gaps. Until the next round of poaching when we go back to shortages again and again.
Thing is, if you are an ADR driver the country really needs you driving fuel and toxic chemicals, not sofas. "Just pay more" is fine and they will and are. But as you lose and then poach back drivers you have gaps and that means fuel shortages.
Then maybe don't lose them. Maybe pay them more in the first place and when they hand in their notice, maybe stop and think "oh I'll need to pay even more than this".
If you keep having pathetically small pay rises under the circumstances then yes that will be a problem. Its a problem you need to fix though not have the state fix it for you.
38% is "pathetically small"?
How much should a pay rise be to (a) keep existing drivers and (b) cover any and all possible pay rises by competitors? I've managed a lot of salary budgets and recruited talent where you have to pay to keep them. Never managed a speculative +80% or +180% just in case the rival down the road increases their offer.
If you haven't filled your vacancies then yes it is.
The benchmark I'm using is I know truckers in the States can be on over $100k per annum. What did your piddly 38% (34% if we exclude the 2.5% inflation only rise) pay rise in the circumstances increase pay upto out of curiosity?
"Your piddly 38% pay rise"
Careful. Your trolling about this is very high grade but you've now become complacent. And this is just to see how much you can get away with. Don't blow it.
I'm not trolling.
For months now Rochdale and others have been saying that there's this humongous crisis in the industry with 100,000 extra staff needed. The refrain time and again was pay more to get the vacancies paid.
I for one did not mean a 38% pay rise as being the limit for that. Yes if it means a 100% pay rise or more to fill the vacancies then JFDI applies.
If you want to increase the pool of drivers by 33% then I see no reason why they must be paid less than MPs for instance.
Time for some back of the envelope maths.
Give 300k truck drivers £40k salary increases is an extra £12bn filtering through to costs for UK plc. Over £400 per household.
And that is just one industry, there will be other wage rises we have to fund too, we have tax increases, energy increases as well.
Something is going to break, and it will be government promises around controlling migration.
I am not at all sure where your 300k truck drivers are to receive an additional £40K pa to their existing salary
They have seen increases but not of that magnitude
The idea that there is a fuel shortage in this country is absolute nonsense, despite loads of people on this site wishing there was one.
"loads of people on this site wishing there was one" - pitiful.
No one wants a fuel crisis even if the poor old Tories take a bit of a temporary hit from the voters. Too many are seriously dependent on being able to get about - carers to name but one - for anyone to want to make cheap political capital.
In any case, the Government propaganda machine (North Wales office) assures us there are no queues and plenty of fuel so there you go.
Oooh no, nobody wants a fuel crisis
Like no one wanted empty shelves where perrier once stood, or there to be 100, 000 cases a day, or John Lewis-gate to stick, or for Boris to have beat up Carrie, or for him to have said "people of Colour", or for his watch not to have been 15 mins fast...
So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .
Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!
Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
The problem with your argument is that it's not the freeloaders who are falling out.
Its the greater hassle fuel and coolchain hauliers who have immediate problems because the extra money they pay is now not worth the extra hassle.
The biggie was when the pay fiesta hit the tanker drivers. I assume that Hoyer et al have responded with their own pay rises so they will recruit drivers back which will fill the gaps. Until the next round of poaching when we go back to shortages again and again.
Thing is, if you are an ADR driver the country really needs you driving fuel and toxic chemicals, not sofas. "Just pay more" is fine and they will and are. But as you lose and then poach back drivers you have gaps and that means fuel shortages.
Then maybe don't lose them. Maybe pay them more in the first place and when they hand in their notice, maybe stop and think "oh I'll need to pay even more than this".
If you keep having pathetically small pay rises under the circumstances then yes that will be a problem. Its a problem you need to fix though not have the state fix it for you.
38% is "pathetically small"?
How much should a pay rise be to (a) keep existing drivers and (b) cover any and all possible pay rises by competitors? I've managed a lot of salary budgets and recruited talent where you have to pay to keep them. Never managed a speculative +80% or +180% just in case the rival down the road increases their offer.
If you haven't filled your vacancies then yes it is.
The benchmark I'm using is I know truckers in the States can be on over $100k per annum. What did your piddly 38% (34% if we exclude the 2.5% inflation only rise) pay rise in the circumstances increase pay upto out of curiosity?
"Your piddly 38% pay rise"
Careful. Your trolling about this is very high grade but you've now become complacent. And this is just to see how much you can get away with. Don't blow it.
I'm not trolling.
For months now Rochdale and others have been saying that there's this humongous crisis in the industry with 100,000 extra staff needed. The refrain time and again was pay more to get the vacancies paid.
I for one did not mean a 38% pay rise as being the limit for that. Yes if it means a 100% pay rise or more to fill the vacancies then JFDI applies.
If you want to increase the pool of drivers by 33% then I see no reason why they must be paid less than MPs for instance.
Time for some back of the envelope maths.
Give 300k truck drivers £40k salary increases is an extra £12bn filtering through to costs for UK plc. Over £400 per household.
And that is just one industry, there will be other wage rises we have to fund too, we have tax increases, energy increases as well.
Something is going to break, and it will be government promises around controlling migration.
I am not at all sure where your 300k truck drivers are to receive an additional £40K pa to their existing salary
They have seen increases but not of that magnitude
Or am I missing something
Yep, you are missing Philip's plan to fix the problem by increasing HGV driver wages to £80k each - in case you missed it it's here and about 5 posts below this one.
Either way HGV drivers in the UK even after months of us saying pay them more are getting a rough deal compared to eg MPs. Or if you don't like that comparison, HGV drivers in the free market USA.
And now you literally start to lie about a quote from Shell. Where did they say 'panic'? You are the original fake news merchant.
People are panic buying. Why are they panic buying though? There wouldn't have been a shortage. The panic buying may cause a shortage for a little while. There is panic buying because the media warned of panic buying, thus causing panic buying.
You would have to be panic buying to buy at Shell it's 6p a litre more expensive round here compared to Morrisons.
Check the octane rating. When the supermarkets first started selling petrol, they bought some pretty shite stuff from old communist-era refineries in Eastern Europe. One lot destroyed alot of car engines.
The oil company I worked for was paid to dispose of the thousands of tons of junk fuel involved. We actually filtered out the rust that had caused the problem, added some components to rebalance the profile and sold it as good petrol. Trebles all round!
Extinction Rebellion protestor who glued himself to an aircraft and wrecked the travel arrangements of 337 people jailed for 12 months. Charge of Causing a Public Nuisance.
Double Gold Medalling, blind paralympic athlete, too. No quarter for public figures. You dont get to disturb the lives of people going about their lawful business.
Wonder if the sentence will stand? Presumably the defence team will Appeal.
To think, when I used to say mass immigration of cheap EU Labour suppressed wages, people on here actually used to argue that it didn't
The Supply-and-Demand deniers
I don't believe it can have a significant impact in a highly globalized world. If British firms are paying more for the same skills, then either their profit margins will need to shrink, the pound will need to fall to compensate, or they will choose to hire overseas.
Having actually done a lot of hiring, I have never found that developers in London were particularly cheaper than in other locations (indeed, they were almost certainly a bit more expensive), but that was made up by having such a deep pool of talent to choose from. One could get three or four good guys in Estonia at a significant discount to London, but the labour pool was shallow. Attempt to hire fifty people and you rapidly ran up against capacity constraints.
Where I do think there has been a significant impact has been on the quality of life of those on lower incomes, in particular driven by rising housing costs. A couple on 70% of average London incomes is going to be either commuting from afar (not cheap, terrible impact on family life), or will struggle to ever get onto the housing ladder - and having the resources to have their own place and raise children, will be extremely challenging. The issue goes beyond housing, too. It includes overcrowded transport, schools and GPs offices. Simply, a lot of people were looking to access the same range of services, at the same time that an ageing population removed funding from a lot of these.
Energy crisis, food shortages, shooting inflation, NHS collapse, tax rises, benefit cuts, run on gilts, floods ... soon comes the Winter of our Discontent 😱
So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .
Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!
Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
The problem with your argument is that it's not the freeloaders who are falling out.
Its the greater hassle fuel and coolchain hauliers who have immediate problems because the extra money they pay is now not worth the extra hassle.
The biggie was when the pay fiesta hit the tanker drivers. I assume that Hoyer et al have responded with their own pay rises so they will recruit drivers back which will fill the gaps. Until the next round of poaching when we go back to shortages again and again.
Thing is, if you are an ADR driver the country really needs you driving fuel and toxic chemicals, not sofas. "Just pay more" is fine and they will and are. But as you lose and then poach back drivers you have gaps and that means fuel shortages.
Then maybe don't lose them. Maybe pay them more in the first place and when they hand in their notice, maybe stop and think "oh I'll need to pay even more than this".
If you keep having pathetically small pay rises under the circumstances then yes that will be a problem. Its a problem you need to fix though not have the state fix it for you.
38% is "pathetically small"?
How much should a pay rise be to (a) keep existing drivers and (b) cover any and all possible pay rises by competitors? I've managed a lot of salary budgets and recruited talent where you have to pay to keep them. Never managed a speculative +80% or +180% just in case the rival down the road increases their offer.
If you haven't filled your vacancies then yes it is.
The benchmark I'm using is I know truckers in the States can be on over $100k per annum. What did your piddly 38% (34% if we exclude the 2.5% inflation only rise) pay rise in the circumstances increase pay upto out of curiosity?
"Your piddly 38% pay rise"
Careful. Your trolling about this is very high grade but you've now become complacent. And this is just to see how much you can get away with. Don't blow it.
I'm not trolling.
For months now Rochdale and others have been saying that there's this humongous crisis in the industry with 100,000 extra staff needed. The refrain time and again was pay more to get the vacancies paid.
I for one did not mean a 38% pay rise as being the limit for that. Yes if it means a 100% pay rise or more to fill the vacancies then JFDI applies.
If you want to increase the pool of drivers by 33% then I see no reason why they must be paid less than MPs for instance.
Time for some back of the envelope maths.
Give 300k truck drivers £40k salary increases is an extra £12bn filtering through to costs for UK plc. Over £400 per household.
And that is just one industry, there will be other wage rises we have to fund too, we have tax increases, energy increases as well.
Something is going to break, and it will be government promises around controlling migration.
I am not at all sure where your 300k truck drivers are to receive an additional £40K pa to their existing salary
They have seen increases but not of that magnitude
Or am I missing something
It is PT's "unusual" solution of increasing pay by 100%, not that of anyone responsible for this in the real world.
This country is falling apart isn't it? Have a look at the Sky News front page and, aside from Emma Radacanu, I can't remember such a dreary and dreadful series of cock-ups. From the e-gate nightmare to petrol shortages ... it goes on and on.
Ardent Brexiteers will not mind I expect. Growing pains and all that. But I suspect an increasing majority of mainstream British people realise now that Brexit is the biggest blunder this country ever made.
Energy crisis, food shortages, shooting inflation, NHS collapse, tax rises, benefit cuts, run on gilts, floods ... soon comes the Winter of our Discontent 😱
And not even a good soundtrack to soften the blow(s)!
The morning German polls continue to suggest a slow recovery for the Union.
While Allensbach traditionally gives the Union its highest number (25% today), other pollsters have the CDU/CSU at 22-23%. The numbers across the three polls:
Social Democrats: 25-26% CDU/CSU: 22-23% Greens: 16-17% Free Democrats: 11-12% Alternative for Germany: 10-11% Linke: 6-7%
The swing from CDU/CSU to SPD is in the region of 7.5% so nothing insignificant. The swing from the Union to the Greens is close to 10% but that will probably manifest itself more in the Zweistimme votes than in constituencies.
The Social Democrats look set to win a lot of seats from the CDU in the north and east and in other towns and cities further south and west but the Union's rural heartlands in Bavaria and Baden-Wurttemberg look secure.
This country is falling apart isn't it? Have a look at the Sky News front page and, aside from Emma Radacanu, I can't remember such a dreary and dreadful series of cock-ups. From the e-gate nightmare to petrol shortages ... it goes on and on.
Ardent Brexiteers will not mind I expect. Growing pains and all that. But I suspect an increasing majority of mainstream British people realise now that Brexit is the biggest blunder this country ever made.
Blue passports!! As long you don't need one actually processed or delivered quickly.
The central tenet of Brexit abandoned at the first whiff of gunsmoke.
The BoZo fanbois must be so proud...
Au contraire. The point of Brexit was always about control. And taking back control.
No one ever said no immigration (well Farage might have done but he's an idiot)
The idea was of a "points based system" where the public, via their government, could pick and choose who comes in and what jobs they do in the same way the vast majority of other non-EU countries do.
If there is a shortage of HGV drivers then that sector should definitely have a more relaxed approach than say other sectors.
If the HGV sector becomes over saturated (seems unlikely at present granted) then the government can tighten up the entry requirements in due course.
Die hard Remainers like you will see the relaxation if Visa's for HGV licences as a major stick with which to beat Brexit but that's because you never understood Brexit and still don't.
UK shortages being reported widely across European media. This from Libération: "No wonder PM Johnson only talks about French submarines and Britain's new pact with the US/Australia...'Go and cook yourself an egg', Boris, at least if you can find some eggs at the supermarket." https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1441414693072027648/photo/1
Presumably you’ll start posting some of the news on the continent in relation to shortages.
Completely off-topic: my autistic train-obsessed nephew has just sent me a video of a train going past captioned 'Deltic!'. Thanks to previous discussions on PB, I was able to reply semi-knowledgeably rather than simply asking "what's a Deltic?"
(I'm not yet equipped to judge whether it is, indeed, a Deltic, but I think I'll take his word for it)
Has he seen this?
I find it almost hypnotic...
I shall forward the wiki-page Crikey, I'm going to look like a really know some stuff!
I don't know if you saw my posting the last time we discussed Deltics - I mentioned I'd recently found the Deltic engine manual for Ton class minesweepers in the papers of my late father (ex Navy).
Give me a 37 or 45 any day... Or a pair of twenties...
33 for me too, but really 59 - the US built ones that came to work the local quarries, and then morphed into the 66.
Ah, the Foster-Yeoman 59's. It's unreasonable of me, but I can't stand them - they were the start of the US invasion that led to the hideous uniformity of the 66s.
But, it must be said, the 66s are good, and possible better than anything BREL/ABB or Bush could come up with. A shame EWS bought so many of one class, though understandable.
This country is falling apart isn't it? Have a look at the Sky News front page and, aside from Emma Radacanu, I can't remember such a dreary and dreadful series of cock-ups. From the e-gate nightmare to petrol shortages ... it goes on and on.
Ardent Brexiteers will not mind I expect. Growing pains and all that. But I suspect an increasing majority of mainstream British people realise now that Brexit is the biggest blunder this country ever made.
Also interesting that policy advisers for government is an eligible occupation, whilst the people who deliver are our food is not. Perhaps given the governments performance we actually do need to import some talent there.
Would be good to have a flood of cheap Romanian policy advisers, living eight to a caravan in a dirty field round the back of Whitehall. Whatever those guys are getting paid right now, it's too much.
Along the same lines. I'm sure you can find plenty of qualified, talented, and under valued Indian, Mexican, Iranian etc business leaders. Would cut the top FTSE pay packets nicely. Better for share holders you see...
I have the impression that the countries where these business leaders would come from are characterised by cronyism and corruption.
So they would feel perfectly at home in Johnson's Britain.
This country is falling apart isn't it? Have a look at the Sky News front page and, aside from Emma Radacanu, I can't remember such a dreary and dreadful series of cock-ups. From the e-gate nightmare to petrol shortages ... it goes on and on.
Ardent Brexiteers will not mind I expect. Growing pains and all that. But I suspect an increasing majority of mainstream British people realise now that Brexit is the biggest blunder this country ever made.
Yes but i can now buy a pound of sausages like in the good old days.
Or i will be able to when there are some in the supermarket
Lord Sugar @Lord_Sugar Can someone explain to me the benefits of Brexit now we are out of the EU. We have a shortage of truck drivers,small biz can't buy or sell unless they set up symbolic companies in the EU. In my opinion the decision to leave was the biggest mistake this country has ever made.
This country is falling apart isn't it? Have a look at the Sky News front page and, aside from Emma Radacanu, I can't remember such a dreary and dreadful series of cock-ups. From the e-gate nightmare to petrol shortages ... it goes on and on.
Ardent Brexiteers will not mind I expect. Growing pains and all that. But I suspect an increasing majority of mainstream British people realise now that Brexit is the biggest blunder this country ever made.
Yet more Remoaner bullshit. Desperately linking anything they can to Brexit no matter how stupid it makes them look.
The central tenet of Brexit abandoned at the first whiff of gunsmoke.
The BoZo fanbois must be so proud...
Au contraire. The point of Brexit was always about control. And taking back control.
No one ever said no immigration (well Farage might have done but he's an idiot)
The idea was of a "points based system" where the public, via their government, could pick and choose who comes in and what jobs they do in the same way the vast majority of other non-EU countries do.
If there is a shortage of HGV drivers then that sector should definitely have a more relaxed approach than say other sectors.
If the HGV sector becomes over saturated (seems unlikely at present granted) then the government can tighten up the entry requirements in due course.
Die hard Remainers like you will see the relaxation if Visa's for HGV licences as a major stick with which to beat Brexit but that's because you never understood Brexit and still don't.
I just wonder where these morons think all these drivers are gong to come from given that Germany, France, Poland, Italy and practically ever other state in the EU has a shortage of drivers in the tens of thousands. Why they think they are suddenly going to decide to come work in the UK when they aren't working in their own countries is beyond me.
Comments
If there's bottlenecks at testing stations they should be fixed. No reason testing shouldn't be happening seven days a week for twelve hours a day if demand is there.
There was even a planned version with fuel injection into the turbine exhaust... yes, a diesel engine bolted to a jet with an afterburner.
Peak Steampunk or something.
Either way, even though I'm not a train (or large diesel engine?) buff, I'm finding this diversion more pleasant and interesting than the circular debate over the, as yet unclear, consequences of Brexit for those in low paid jobs.
Give 300k truck drivers £40k salary increases is an extra £12bn filtering through to costs for UK plc. Over £400 per household.
And that is just one industry, there will be other wage rises we have to fund too, we have tax increases, energy increases as well.
Something is going to break, and it will be government promises around controlling migration.
And the -1 is someone else's problem. Maybe at that salary it's -1 retired or -1 in a different sector.
Either way HGV drivers in the UK even after months of us saying pay them more are getting a rough deal compared to eg MPs. Or if you don't like that comparison, HGV drivers in the free market USA.
Scott sure has you PB Tories in a tizzy today.
Can I once again ask that you think before you post - it's like dealing with a new trainee, who alothugh full of ideas, doesn't realise that they have all been suggested / tried 50 times....
New Thread
Changes on 2017 Althing elections:
Independence Party: 22.9% (-2.3)
Progressive Party: 16.4% (+5.7)
Reform Party: 12.0% (+5.3)
Social Democrats: 11.5% (-0.6)
Pirates: 9.9% (+0.7)
Left-Green Movement: 9.7% (-7.2)
People's Party: 6.2% (-0.7)
Centre Party: 5.8% (-5.1)
Socialist Party: 5.1% (+5.1)
A real swing away from the parties on the left in the final days - the governing coalition is down about four points whether it will just be a question of swapping the Left-Green Movement of the current Prime Minister for the growing Reform Party. Independence +Progressive+Reform looks to have a majority.
Reform has only been about since May 2016 and in that's year Althing election went into coalition with Independence but lost three seats in the following year's election and went into opposition.
I suspect if they do well they could well either formally join or simply support an Independence-Progressive Government
They have seen increases but not of that magnitude
Or am I missing something
£200 fines have been more normal, for less serious charges.
Also, the riot situation had rather more aggravating factors etc.
Having actually done a lot of hiring, I have never found that developers in London were particularly cheaper than in other locations (indeed, they were almost certainly a bit more expensive), but that was made up by having such a deep pool of talent to choose from. One could get three or four good guys in Estonia at a significant discount to London, but the labour pool was shallow. Attempt to hire fifty people and you rapidly ran up against capacity constraints.
And, indeed, the statistics largely back this up. Median incomes in the UK have done rather better than the US and a little worse than Germany.
Where I do think there has been a significant impact has been on the quality of life of those on lower incomes, in particular driven by rising housing costs. A couple on 70% of average London incomes is going to be either commuting from afar (not cheap, terrible impact on family life), or will struggle to ever get onto the housing ladder - and having the resources to have their own place and raise children, will be extremely challenging. The issue goes beyond housing, too. It includes overcrowded transport, schools and GPs offices. Simply, a lot of people were looking to access the same range of services, at the same time that an ageing population removed funding from a lot of these.
Ardent Brexiteers will not mind I expect. Growing pains and all that. But I suspect an increasing majority of mainstream British people realise now that Brexit is the biggest blunder this country ever made.
While Allensbach traditionally gives the Union its highest number (25% today), other pollsters have the CDU/CSU at 22-23%. The numbers across the three polls:
Social Democrats: 25-26%
CDU/CSU: 22-23%
Greens: 16-17%
Free Democrats: 11-12%
Alternative for Germany: 10-11%
Linke: 6-7%
The swing from CDU/CSU to SPD is in the region of 7.5% so nothing insignificant. The swing from the Union to the Greens is close to 10% but that will probably manifest itself more in the Zweistimme votes than in constituencies.
The Social Democrats look set to win a lot of seats from the CDU in the north and east and in other towns and cities further south and west but the Union's rural heartlands in Bavaria and Baden-Wurttemberg look secure.
No one ever said no immigration (well Farage might have done but he's an idiot)
The idea was of a "points based system" where the public, via their government, could pick and choose who comes in and what jobs they do in the same way the vast majority of other non-EU countries do.
If there is a shortage of HGV drivers then that sector should definitely have a more relaxed approach than say other sectors.
If the HGV sector becomes over saturated (seems unlikely at present granted) then the government can tighten up the entry requirements in due course.
Die hard Remainers like you will see the relaxation if Visa's for HGV licences as a major stick with which to beat Brexit but that's because you never understood Brexit and still don't.
Or probably not. Doesn’t fit the narrative
But, it must be said, the 66s are good, and possible better than anything BREL/ABB or Bush could come up with. A shame EWS bought so many of one class, though understandable.
https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/policies/schengen-borders-and-visa/smart-borders/entry-exit-system_en
So they would feel perfectly at home in Johnson's Britain.
Or i will be able to when there are some in the supermarket
@Lord_Sugar
Can someone explain to me the benefits of Brexit now we are out of the EU. We have a shortage of truck drivers,small biz can't buy or sell unless they set up symbolic companies in the EU. In my opinion the decision to leave was the biggest mistake this country has ever made.
Blue Passports and err a pound of sausages