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The front pages that should frighten ministers – politicalbetting.com

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  • Breaking

    Key cabinet ministers meeting this afternoon to address driver shortages and visa scheme

    Cue frantic ideological whiplash from the PB Tories.
    Are there any left? Maybe HYUFD.

    I'm more than content to stick with my principles and say the Government are doing the wrong thing, if they do the wrong thing. I agree with the Government because they're doing the right thing, not because I'm loyal.

    If the Government change and do the wrong thing, then its still the wrong thing, just like the jobs tax.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 34,893

    I see @Casino_Royale has trouble with the word “econometricians”.

    Perhaps he discovered an undercover “woke” cell at HM Treasury or something.

    1½ hours to think about it and (still) no answers, just more ad hominem.

    I rest my case, ladies and gentlemen.
    It must be difficult watching a two decade argument get smashed up in just a few months. The issue here is that the evidence has changed but people are dogmatically sticking to their views.

    Tbh, the evidence from Switzerland has always been pretty clear. Have large barriers at the bottom of the market and very few at that top. Everyone wins that way.
  • glwglw Posts: 8,333

    Jake Brown, a 27-year-old former non-league footballer, founded Avro Energy in 2014 while studying law at Birmingham University

    The collapse of Avro’s consumer division on Wednesday was the biggest failure yet seen of a household supplier

    Jake's father Andrew joined the business in 2017. The pair do not appear to have invested any of their own money in the company, which has been financed by the advance fees paid by customers. Each owns half the shares in Avro Group, the holding company for a string of businesses

    https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1441305343816990720?s=20

    Sounds rather ponzi-scheme light....we have no money, no investment, we rely on new money coming in. No wonder they weren't hedging.

    The big question is: what the hell was the regulator (OFGEM) doing? Did they not even do two minutes due diligence before granting Avro's Electricity Supply Licence?
    Another useless regulator. Probably staffed by some of the same chumps who were at the FSA.
  • PJHPJH Posts: 169
    Update on petrol and empty shelves in suburban east London- in my local Sainsbury's this morning, the usual spotty gaps as per recently on the shelves, generally not as full as say 6 months ago but most things available. The most obvious gap was on the pasta aisle. I was able to get everything I wanted but I did take the last bottle of Bishop's Finger (other beers remain available).

    Outside, quite a few cars queueing for fuel, presumably on the basis that if the government says there is no need to panic buy, then one should buy.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Key cabinet ministers will meet this afternoon to agree plan for lorry drivers shortage.

    Cabinet are split on visas, with George Eustice and Steve Barclay pushing for.

    I understand solution could involve something similar to Seasonal Workers Scheme to avert immediate pressure.

    Not confirmed whether Priti Patel will attend, but strongest opposition expected from the home office.

    Strong rhetoric from Grant Shapps and Kwasi Kwarteng on need to reduce reliance on cheap foreign labour.

    Sources expect any scheme would need to be strictly time-limited.


    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1441362264271962118

    That Shapps was doing the morning rounds suggests they are not yet for turning. When we get Sharma or Dowden defending the policy that is the indicator for the inevitable u-turn.

    (At which point those cheering the government for holding firm today, will praise them for being pragmatic and flexible. It is a bit like umpires call in the cricket, whatever their decision, they will see the govt as correct.)
    Ultimately if they are perceived to address the problem then the public will move on

    They should by any definition be in the polling doldrums but the constant mystery is just why labour are not seen as the alternative government, or has Corbyn trashed the brand so comprehensively
  • Scott_xP said:

    🚨 | NEW: A vegetable firm in Lincolnshire is currently advertising a broccoli picker role for £30-per-hour - equivalent to around £62,000-a-year. 

    Via @DailyMailUK

    Should thoroughly test the theory that Brits wont do this back breaking hard labour at any price.
    Well, casualised labour should be paid at a premium, due to the lack of security and long term engagement.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 6,970

    Scott_xP said:

    🚨 | NEW: A vegetable firm in Lincolnshire is currently advertising a broccoli picker role for £30-per-hour - equivalent to around £62,000-a-year. 

    Via @DailyMailUK

    Fantastic. Hard work should get a good pay rate, don't you agree?
    Yes.
    But it's scarcity that pays, not hard work.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    tlg86 said:

    gealbhan said:

    Breaking

    AA President Edmund King says there is no shortage of fuel and thousands of petrol stations are operating normally with just a few suffering temporary supply chain problems

    It’s a civic duty really isn’t. Keep calm, carry on as normal, if anyone breaks habit and takes more the usual that’s what will cause the problem - depriving it from someone else.
    Thankfully, people can't hoard petrol/diesel like they can do with toilet rolls (at least, most people can't/won't).
    Darwin Award incoming.

    Perhaps even a D notice should be slapped on media when there are teething issues with with this, to save a bigger problem. Certainly the riots of 2012 were exacerbated by the Tv coverage, which they won’t be allowed to do next time, editorial restraint could help in situations like this.
  • pingping Posts: 2,211
    Scott_xP said:
    Stop panicking!
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 8,027

    Scott_xP said:

    More than half of U.K. adults say they have faced more difficulties than usual shopping for food over the past two weeks, according to an official survey https://trib.al/uXYRWyB

    Don’t tell @Taz

    Apparently it’s a fiction, apart from that one time it happened to him.
    Does depend on what you mean by difficulties though. For instance, in my shop this week I couldn't buy my normal size tin of kidney beans. So I bought two of the smaller ones instead.

    Q Have you been unable to buy any of your normal items?
    A Yes

    Q Did it affect your dinner?
    A No.

    I am not suggesting that there are no problems - there clearly are, just that it is being spun by some into something much bigger than the reality, and above story is an example of how that can happen.
  • I see @Casino_Royale has trouble with the word “econometricians”.

    Perhaps he discovered an undercover “woke” cell at HM Treasury or something.

    1½ hours to think about it and (still) no answers, just more ad hominem.

    I rest my case, ladies and gentlemen.
    What case?
    That you don’t know what an econometrician is?

    There are free dictionaries online, these days.
  • pingping Posts: 2,211

    Breaking

    AA President Edmund King says there is no shortage of fuel and thousands of petrol stations are operating normally with just a few suffering temporary supply chain problems

    That’s not gonna age well
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 17,146
    gealbhan said:

    Breaking

    AA President Edmund King says there is no shortage of fuel and thousands of petrol stations are operating normally with just a few suffering temporary supply chain problems

    It’s a civic duty really isn’t. Keep calm, carry on as normal, if anyone breaks habit and takes more the usual that’s what will cause the problem - depriving it from someone else.
    The whole of game theory is about prisoner's dilemma, and the whole point of prisoner's dilemma is: if you are certain the other party is going to defect, you defect.

    So do I go mano a mano with a whole academic discipline, or do i fill my tank?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 3,642

    Selebian said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Should thoroughly test the theory that Brits wont do this back breaking hard labour at any price.

    Followed swiftly by how willing we are to pay 20 quid for a head of broccoli...
    More likely, the broccoli just isn’t harvested and doesn’t make it to the shops. Nobody can buy that broccoli.

    Result:

    Less broccoli choice
    More expensive broccoli
    Fewer broccoli jobs
    More broccoli imports
    Fewer broccoli exports

    Now repeat across the entire economy.
    You forget: happier (if possibly less healthy) kids :wink:

    (although my two actually eat broccoli very happily - pretty much at the top of their veg preference list, maybe after sweetcorn - it's supposed to be something they hate, isn't it?)
    I once introduced a teenager to purple sprouting broccoli, which I prefer to calabrese and, indeed, regard as a seasonal delicacy. She was unimpressed, expecting "little trees".
    As a kid, we only ever had purple sprouting broccoli (from my dad's garden) and I prefer it, too. I was in my teens before I had calabrese, at a friend's house. Never had any luck growing either, myself - tried a couple of times and it bolts before there's a decent head. Everything else we've tried we've managed to grow well enough, so just shrugged and given up. Purple sprouting is rarely available to buy here and expensive, I do miss it.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,038
    gealbhan said:

    tlg86 said:

    gealbhan said:

    Breaking

    AA President Edmund King says there is no shortage of fuel and thousands of petrol stations are operating normally with just a few suffering temporary supply chain problems

    It’s a civic duty really isn’t. Keep calm, carry on as normal, if anyone breaks habit and takes more the usual that’s what will cause the problem - depriving it from someone else.
    Thankfully, people can't hoard petrol/diesel like they can do with toilet rolls (at least, most people can't/won't).
    Darwin Award incoming.

    Perhaps even a D notice should be slapped on media when there are teething issues with with this, to save a bigger problem. Certainly the riots of 2012 were exacerbated by the Tv coverage, which they won’t be allowed to do next time, editorial restraint could help in situations like this.
    Thankfully we haven't had a repeat of this...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17545258

    The government made a mistake in advising people to store petrol in jerrycans at home to prepare for a possible strike by fuel tanker drivers, a transport minister has said.

    Mike Penning said Cabinet Minister Francis Maude had misunderstood the size of a jerrycan, which is 20 litres.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 13,868

    Tesco offering drivers a £1,000 sign on to come to work for them

    Small print applies ie half after 3 months half after 6 months

    My step son says his mate drives for Tesco, £21.40 an hour, the problem he says is not the drivers, they can’t get the cheap Labour on minimum wage to work night shifts loading the lorries.

    "What self respecting person would work nights for minimum wage"

    Peerhaps its because places like Aldi and LIDL pay the Living Wage, which is about 7-8% higher than minimum wage I think at present.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 6,970
    gealbhan said:

    tlg86 said:

    gealbhan said:

    Breaking

    AA President Edmund King says there is no shortage of fuel and thousands of petrol stations are operating normally with just a few suffering temporary supply chain problems

    It’s a civic duty really isn’t. Keep calm, carry on as normal, if anyone breaks habit and takes more the usual that’s what will cause the problem - depriving it from someone else.
    Thankfully, people can't hoard petrol/diesel like they can do with toilet rolls (at least, most people can't/won't).
    Darwin Award incoming.

    Perhaps even a D notice should be slapped on media when there are teething issues with with this, to save a bigger problem. Certainly the riots of 2012 were exacerbated by the Tv coverage, which they won’t be allowed to do next time, editorial restraint could help in situations like this.
    This is a joke, right? Tell me it's a joke.
  • Any SKS fans explain why Lab are on 32 in latest YG

    Thanks in advance

    30 mins and counting

    Come on SKS fans

    Surely RP could at least say but Corbyn Trot Trot Trot
    More seriously, WTF do they think they are doing reinstating Benn's electoral college? I find myself on the same side as Laura Pillock on this one - you have to let party members elect the leader as the other parties do. OK so you have a selectorate stage first, but the vote needs to go to members.

    At this stage, handing more power to the unions is the opposite of the image they want to give out. Union bosses still suffer from foaming-dog fever.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 42,881
    IanB2 said:

    The thing to do is get in before the panic buyers….

    I am still in the EU (where there is abundant fuel), heading for Belgium in the hope of turning my dog into a Belgian pet. I guess it makes sense to fill up before I set off for home tomorrow?

    Do I need to fill the car with emergency relief supplies?

    Shaved parmesan. Tonnes of it.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 17,146
    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Should thoroughly test the theory that Brits wont do this back breaking hard labour at any price.

    Followed swiftly by how willing we are to pay 20 quid for a head of broccoli...
    More likely, the broccoli just isn’t harvested and doesn’t make it to the shops. Nobody can buy that broccoli.

    Result:

    Less broccoli choice
    More expensive broccoli
    Fewer broccoli jobs
    More broccoli imports
    Fewer broccoli exports

    Now repeat across the entire economy.
    You forget: happier (if possibly less healthy) kids :wink:

    (although my two actually eat broccoli very happily - pretty much at the top of their veg preference list, maybe after sweetcorn - it's supposed to be something they hate, isn't it?)
    I once introduced a teenager to purple sprouting broccoli, which I prefer to calabrese and, indeed, regard as a seasonal delicacy. She was unimpressed, expecting "little trees".
    As a kid, we only ever had purple sprouting broccoli (from my dad's garden) and I prefer it, too. I was in my teens before I had calabrese, at a friend's house. Never had any luck growing either, myself - tried a couple of times and it bolts before there's a decent head. Everything else we've tried we've managed to grow well enough, so just shrugged and given up. Purple sprouting is rarely available to buy here and expensive, I do miss it.
    It's really easy to grow, delicious, first thing available in spring, and only bolts when you are fed up with it and have stopped harvesting. If you garden at all you should grow it
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 13,304
    edited September 2021
    Farooq said:

    gealbhan said:

    tlg86 said:

    gealbhan said:

    Breaking

    AA President Edmund King says there is no shortage of fuel and thousands of petrol stations are operating normally with just a few suffering temporary supply chain problems

    It’s a civic duty really isn’t. Keep calm, carry on as normal, if anyone breaks habit and takes more the usual that’s what will cause the problem - depriving it from someone else.
    Thankfully, people can't hoard petrol/diesel like they can do with toilet rolls (at least, most people can't/won't).
    Darwin Award incoming.

    Perhaps even a D notice should be slapped on media when there are teething issues with with this, to save a bigger problem. Certainly the riots of 2012 were exacerbated by the Tv coverage, which they won’t be allowed to do next time, editorial restraint could help in situations like this.
    This is a joke, right? Tell me it's a joke.
    There are no tanks outside Baghdad.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 71,291
    edited September 2021
    MattW said:

    Tesco offering drivers a £1,000 sign on to come to work for them

    Small print applies ie half after 3 months half after 6 months

    My step son says his mate drives for Tesco, £21.40 an hour, the problem he says is not the drivers, they can’t get the cheap Labour on minimum wage to work night shifts loading the lorries.

    "What self respecting person would work nights for minimum wage"

    Peerhaps its because places like Aldi and LIDL pay the Living Wage, which is about 7-8% higher than minimum wage I think at present.
    20 years ago I worked warehouse job for a well known upmarket supermarket, doing nights I got ~£10 / hr even then. That was before you could import cheap labour from Eastern Europe mind you.
  • gealbhan said:

    Breaking

    AA President Edmund King says there is no shortage of fuel and thousands of petrol stations are operating normally with just a few suffering temporary supply chain problems

    It’s a civic duty really isn’t. Keep calm, carry on as normal, if anyone breaks habit and takes more the usual that’s what will cause the problem - depriving it from someone else.
    I admit I did fill up this morning, which I don't normally do as I have only been using £20-£30 of petrol a month. But I am now going into the office 3-4 days a week and I do want to get to Luton Airport for my Andalucia jaunt, so I thought it prudent to fill up now. No queues, no shortages though at a local filling station that is normally one of the cheapest around.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    DavidL said:

    IanB2 said:

    The thing to do is get in before the panic buyers….

    I am still in the EU (where there is abundant fuel), heading for Belgium in the hope of turning my dog into a Belgian pet. I guess it makes sense to fill up before I set off for home tomorrow?

    Do I need to fill the car with emergency relief supplies?

    Shaved parmesan. Tonnes of it.
    Don’t forget my pilchards in tomato sauce.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 21,036

    I see @Casino_Royale has trouble with the word “econometricians”.

    Perhaps he discovered an undercover “woke” cell at HM Treasury or something.

    Why pray tell? Econometrics was a course at my Uni in the mid 80's. Have several friends who graduated as econometricians. They're in their mid 50's now.
  • eekeek Posts: 19,277
    edited September 2021

    Any SKS fans explain why Lab are on 32 in latest YG

    Thanks in advance

    30 mins and counting

    Come on SKS fans

    Surely RP could at least say but Corbyn Trot Trot Trot
    More seriously, WTF do they think they are doing reinstating Benn's electoral college? I find myself on the same side as Laura Pillock on this one - you have to let party members elect the leader as the other parties do. OK so you have a selectorate stage first, but the vote needs to go to members.

    At this stage, handing more power to the unions is the opposite of the image they want to give out. Union bosses still suffer from foaming-dog fever.
    Its not as if all unions are Labour Party affiliates nowadays.

    In fact it's almost like the plan is a desperate attempt to stop the Trade Unions separating away from the Labour party (which is a problem as the Labour Party needs their fundraising).
  • Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🚨 | NEW: A vegetable firm in Lincolnshire is currently advertising a broccoli picker role for £30-per-hour - equivalent to around £62,000-a-year. 

    Via @DailyMailUK

    Fantastic. Hard work should get a good pay rate, don't you agree?
    Yes.
    But it's scarcity that pays, not hard work.
    Yes that's how market economics works.

    If we have scarce few people willing to work hard picking vegetables then that will be a valuable job that pays well.

    Some people are petrified of seeing other people get a good day's wage though.
  • dixiedean said:

    I see @Casino_Royale has trouble with the word “econometricians”.

    Perhaps he discovered an undercover “woke” cell at HM Treasury or something.

    Why pray tell? Econometrics was a course at my Uni in the mid 80's. Have several friends who graduated as econometricians. They're in their mid 50's now.
    I believe he either doesn’t know what one is, or believes it is all hoodoo.

    One mustn’t cite them, apparently.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 34,893

    MattW said:

    Tesco offering drivers a £1,000 sign on to come to work for them

    Small print applies ie half after 3 months half after 6 months

    My step son says his mate drives for Tesco, £21.40 an hour, the problem he says is not the drivers, they can’t get the cheap Labour on minimum wage to work night shifts loading the lorries.

    "What self respecting person would work nights for minimum wage"

    Peerhaps its because places like Aldi and LIDL pay the Living Wage, which is about 7-8% higher than minimum wage I think at present.
    20 years ago I worked warehouse job for a well known upmarket supermarket, doing nights I got ~£10 / hr even then.
    Indeed, and 20 years later the same people are on the same or lower rates. But it's got nothing to do with the unlimited low wage labour pool. Definitely not. Warehouses just wouldn't be a thing without low wage workers, we'd store everything out in the open.
  • eekeek Posts: 19,277
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Brexit is working, its the only gamebin town. Driver shortages, container shortages etc are everywhere.

    Driver shortages and container shortages aren't the same as food and petrol shortages, however. I haven't seen any reports of these in northern continental Europe up to now, which is what the Daily Mail constituency are beginning to notice also.
    Disruptions in supply may well vary but a shortage of drivers makes such disruptions inevitable and that seems pretty universal in Europe at the moment.

    There was a professional driver on R5 when I was driving home a couple of days ago who described how drivers had been treated as third class citizens, made to wait hours for both loads to be put on or taken off with no provision for them in terms of places to go and a pretty basic wage for a lonely, boring job. He admitted that he had just had a wage increase and that the supermarkets were now much keener to get them in and out. I am sure the likes of Tesco will want all its drivers on the road again as fast as possible at the moment.
    There are certainly multiple well-known problems with the industry that have been widely reported, but until or unless people see plain evidence that the problems are as bad in neighbouring countries - which they haven't, and neither have I, frankly - Brexit will feature heavily.
    I agree and made a similar point yesterday.

    In America people are facing the same issues but they just pay whatever escalated prices are needed and get on with it. Inflation is running higher there, but the invisible hand is doing its job.

    In the UK rather than 'Keep Calm And Carry On' we have 'whinge incessantly about Brexit'.

    If you want to moan and moan then that's fine, you have free speech. But it won't get much done, not like gritting your teeth and actually paying your drivers or for timber or whatever the price the market demands.
    I suggest that the issue is not necessarily Brexit itself, bit the apparent assumption in Government and Leavers generally, that 'we'll just Leave and all will be well'.

    Very little thought was given to anything other than the obvious, and in many cases that was bodged.
    All is well.

    Its not the Government's job to fix companies supply chains, that's their own job. If something needs to change, they need to change it, and the market will ensure they do.
    Thought boss of Tesco had said they had done everything in their power and shortages were still inevitable.

    Time to grant visas for lorry drivers methinks. The Government won't survive long if most petrol stations are shut.
    The boss of Tesco has a vested interest in not paying more.

    He should stop moaning and pay what is required. But leftwingers would rather blame Brexit than see people get a pay rise.
    The problem is that a pay rise doesn't stop the shortage, it just redistributes it. Same goes for social care, hospitality, health service, agriculture. The same people cannot be doing all these things.

    It is time to look at how consumerist society works, and consider what is unnecessary in terms of employment.
    If we could get human resources departments redeployed as HGV drivers the world would indeed be a happier place.
    If HR was forced to work as HGV drivers they would discover how bad life on the road actually is and might work on improving things.
  • Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🚨 | NEW: A vegetable firm in Lincolnshire is currently advertising a broccoli picker role for £30-per-hour - equivalent to around £62,000-a-year. 

    Via @DailyMailUK

    Fantastic. Hard work should get a good pay rate, don't you agree?
    Yes.
    But it's scarcity that pays, not hard work.
    Yes that's how market economics works.

    If we have scarce few people willing to work hard picking vegetables then that will be a valuable job that pays well.

    Some people are petrified of seeing other people get a good day's wage though.
    You do realise that broccoli can be bought from outside the UK, I suppose? Try thinking a bit harder.
  • eek said:

    Any SKS fans explain why Lab are on 32 in latest YG

    Thanks in advance

    30 mins and counting

    Come on SKS fans

    Surely RP could at least say but Corbyn Trot Trot Trot
    More seriously, WTF do they think they are doing reinstating Benn's electoral college? I find myself on the same side as Laura Pillock on this one - you have to let party members elect the leader as the other parties do. OK so you have a selectorate stage first, but the vote needs to go to members.

    At this stage, handing more power to the unions is the opposite of the image they want to give out. Union bosses still suffer from foaming-dog fever.
    Its not as if all unions are Labour Party affiliates nowadays.

    In fact it's almost like the plan is a desperate attempt to stop the Trade Unions separating away from the Labour party (which is a problem as the Labour Party needs their fundraising).
    The Tory Party system is a sensible compromise. MPs act as gatekeepers narrowing the choice down to 2, then then members decide.
  • The US seems to have a similar wage stagnation problem.

    I bet they are glad they’ve Brexited.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 42,881

    Breaking

    Key cabinet ministers meeting this afternoon to address driver shortages and visa scheme

    If I was a lorry driver who had just got my first decent wage increase for a long time I would be seriously pissed.

    There are 6m EU citizens who already have rights to be here. I would be astonished if this did not include tens of thousands of drivers. But if they are being offered better wages elsewhere that is where they will go.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 3,642
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Brexit is working, its the only gamebin town. Driver shortages, container shortages etc are everywhere.

    Driver shortages and container shortages aren't the same as food and petrol shortages, however. I haven't seen any reports of these in northern continental Europe up to now, which is what the Daily Mail constituency are beginning to notice also.
    Disruptions in supply may well vary but a shortage of drivers makes such disruptions inevitable and that seems pretty universal in Europe at the moment.

    There was a professional driver on R5 when I was driving home a couple of days ago who described how drivers had been treated as third class citizens, made to wait hours for both loads to be put on or taken off with no provision for them in terms of places to go and a pretty basic wage for a lonely, boring job. He admitted that he had just had a wage increase and that the supermarkets were now much keener to get them in and out. I am sure the likes of Tesco will want all its drivers on the road again as fast as possible at the moment.
    There are certainly multiple well-known problems with the industry that have been widely reported, but until or unless people see plain evidence that the problems are as bad in neighbouring countries - which they haven't, and neither have I, frankly - Brexit will feature heavily.
    I agree and made a similar point yesterday.

    In America people are facing the same issues but they just pay whatever escalated prices are needed and get on with it. Inflation is running higher there, but the invisible hand is doing its job.

    In the UK rather than 'Keep Calm And Carry On' we have 'whinge incessantly about Brexit'.

    If you want to moan and moan then that's fine, you have free speech. But it won't get much done, not like gritting your teeth and actually paying your drivers or for timber or whatever the price the market demands.
    I suggest that the issue is not necessarily Brexit itself, bit the apparent assumption in Government and Leavers generally, that 'we'll just Leave and all will be well'.

    Very little thought was given to anything other than the obvious, and in many cases that was bodged.
    All is well.

    Its not the Government's job to fix companies supply chains, that's their own job. If something needs to change, they need to change it, and the market will ensure they do.
    Thought boss of Tesco had said they had done everything in their power and shortages were still inevitable.

    Time to grant visas for lorry drivers methinks. The Government won't survive long if most petrol stations are shut.
    The boss of Tesco has a vested interest in not paying more.

    He should stop moaning and pay what is required. But leftwingers would rather blame Brexit than see people get a pay rise.
    The problem is that a pay rise doesn't stop the shortage, it just redistributes it. Same goes for social care, hospitality, health service, agriculture. The same people cannot be doing all these things.

    It is time to look at how consumerist society works, and consider what is unnecessary in terms of employment.
    If we could get human resources departments redeployed as HGV drivers the world would indeed be a happier place.
    Much more dangerous though. I'd not trust most HR departments I've encountered to be in charge of a few tonnes of fast-moving metal. They don't normally display good reaction times!
  • Scott_xP said:

    Should thoroughly test the theory that Brits wont do this back breaking hard labour at any price.

    Followed swiftly by how willing we are to pay 20 quid for a head of broccoli...
    More likely, the broccoli just isn’t harvested and doesn’t make it to the shops. Nobody can buy that broccoli.

    Result:

    Less broccoli choice
    More expensive broccoli
    Fewer broccoli jobs
    More broccoli imports
    Fewer broccoli exports

    Now repeat across the entire economy.
    To be blunt, I fucking hate broccoli.

    So much so, I'm considering switching my allegiances to Leave and Stay out.
  • Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🚨 | NEW: A vegetable firm in Lincolnshire is currently advertising a broccoli picker role for £30-per-hour - equivalent to around £62,000-a-year. 

    Via @DailyMailUK

    Fantastic. Hard work should get a good pay rate, don't you agree?
    Yes.
    But it's scarcity that pays, not hard work.
    Yes that's how market economics works.

    If we have scarce few people willing to work hard picking vegetables then that will be a valuable job that pays well.

    Some people are petrified of seeing other people get a good day's wage though.
    You do realise that broccoli can be bought from outside the UK, I suppose? Try thinking a bit harder.
    Yes I do know that. I have no issue with that, do you?

    If farmers can compete with the global economy, paying farm workers a decent salary, then that is fantastic. If they can't, then the land can be repurposed to something more productive instead.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    Farooq said:

    gealbhan said:

    tlg86 said:

    gealbhan said:

    Breaking

    AA President Edmund King says there is no shortage of fuel and thousands of petrol stations are operating normally with just a few suffering temporary supply chain problems

    It’s a civic duty really isn’t. Keep calm, carry on as normal, if anyone breaks habit and takes more the usual that’s what will cause the problem - depriving it from someone else.
    Thankfully, people can't hoard petrol/diesel like they can do with toilet rolls (at least, most people can't/won't).
    Darwin Award incoming.

    Perhaps even a D notice should be slapped on media when there are teething issues with with this, to save a bigger problem. Certainly the riots of 2012 were exacerbated by the Tv coverage, which they won’t be allowed to do next time, editorial restraint could help in situations like this.
    This is a joke, right? Tell me it's a joke.
    No. I was serious.

    The riots spread around the country 2012 because of the overkill TV coverage. The lesson learned was when cars start burning in Paris the media are no longer allowed to show it. And the government here passed this message to the TV companies. We won’t get wall to wall on the spot in the air coverage of rioting ever again on UK TV.
  • Any SKS fans explain why Lab are on 32 in latest YG

    Thanks in advance

    30 mins and counting

    Come on SKS fans

    Surely RP could at least say but Corbyn Trot Trot Trot
    More seriously, WTF do they think they are doing reinstating Benn's electoral college? I find myself on the same side as Laura Pillock on this one - you have to let party members elect the leader as the other parties do. OK so you have a selectorate stage first, but the vote needs to go to members.

    At this stage, handing more power to the unions is the opposite of the image they want to give out. Union bosses still suffer from foaming-dog fever.
    The evidence that members choose good leaders is pretty damning, both here and abroad. Why should a process that does not achieve its goals be continued?

    I wouldnt be giving the unions a say, but nor do I support one member one vote for election of party leaders. They should be chosen by those who work with them and know them closely, not just the image they want to portray during a campaign.
  • eekeek Posts: 19,277
    edited September 2021
    DavidL said:

    Breaking

    Key cabinet ministers meeting this afternoon to address driver shortages and visa scheme

    If I was a lorry driver who had just got my first decent wage increase for a long time I would be seriously pissed.

    There are 6m EU citizens who already have rights to be here. I would be astonished if this did not include tens of thousands of drivers. But if they are being offered better wages elsewhere that is where they will go.
    +1

    The government probably needs to introduce a good quota system here - you can have 1 work permit for every 4/6/8 employed UK drivers.

    With the quota reduced in stages over the next 18 months
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,261
    https://twitter.com/britainelects

    Interesting and mostly off script local election results with, notably, LDs losing in Cambridgeshire.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 17,146
    dixiedean said:

    I see @Casino_Royale has trouble with the word “econometricians”.

    Perhaps he discovered an undercover “woke” cell at HM Treasury or something.

    Why pray tell? Econometrics was a course at my Uni in the mid 80's. Have several friends who graduated as econometricians. They're in their mid 50's now.
    But do you find that

    All the people we used to know
    They're an illusion to me now
    Some are mathematicians
    Some are carpenter's wives
    Don't know how it all got started
    I don't what they do with their lives
    But me, I'm still on the road
    Heading for another joint...?
  • Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🚨 | NEW: A vegetable firm in Lincolnshire is currently advertising a broccoli picker role for £30-per-hour - equivalent to around £62,000-a-year. 

    Via @DailyMailUK

    Fantastic. Hard work should get a good pay rate, don't you agree?
    Yes.
    But it's scarcity that pays, not hard work.
    Yes that's how market economics works.

    If we have scarce few people willing to work hard picking vegetables then that will be a valuable job that pays well.

    Some people are petrified of seeing other people get a good day's wage though.
    You do realise that broccoli can be bought from outside the UK, I suppose? Try thinking a bit harder.
    Yes I do know that. I have no issue with that, do you?

    If farmers can compete with the global economy, paying farm workers a decent salary, then that is fantastic. If they can't, then the land can be repurposed to something more productive instead.
    So the farmer goes bust, the temporarily well-paid job which the worker got temporarily disappears, and our balance of payments worsens. This must be the tangible Brexit benefit everyone has been searching for.
  • Alistair said:

    The AZ Audit report is going to be AMAZING.

    https://twitter.com/willsommer/status/1441233874340646919

    I see also that Abbot has decided that Texas needs one too now (but only in the Dem districts)

    Cyber Ninjas confirm that Biden won, but by more than was thought
    ... and how much did it cost?
  • The government seems to be escaping criticism for halting HGV driver tests during lockdown amidst all the other forms of criticism. Does anyone know what other countries did?
  • eek said:

    DavidL said:

    Breaking

    Key cabinet ministers meeting this afternoon to address driver shortages and visa scheme

    If I was a lorry driver who had just got my first decent wage increase for a long time I would be seriously pissed.

    There are 6m EU citizens who already have rights to be here. I would be astonished if this did not include tens of thousands of drivers. But if they are being offered better wages elsewhere that is where they will go.
    +1

    The government probably needs to introduce a good quota system here - you can have 1 work permit for every 4/6/8 employed UK drivers.

    With the quota reduced in stages over the next 18 months
    What's wrong with the existing visa system?

    You can get a visa so long as the pay is the higher of the typical pay in the sector or £30,000.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,229
    Long queues at this BP garage in Twyford. Staff having to manage the influx of cars… closing every so often when it gets too busy. Drivers coming here after another #petrol station nearby ran dry. Staff tell me they DO have enough supply until the weekend - hopefully. https://twitter.com/LomasChar/status/1441370915527282691/video/1
  • Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🚨 | NEW: A vegetable firm in Lincolnshire is currently advertising a broccoli picker role for £30-per-hour - equivalent to around £62,000-a-year. 

    Via @DailyMailUK

    Fantastic. Hard work should get a good pay rate, don't you agree?
    Yes.
    But it's scarcity that pays, not hard work.
    Yes that's how market economics works.

    If we have scarce few people willing to work hard picking vegetables then that will be a valuable job that pays well.

    Some people are petrified of seeing other people get a good day's wage though.
    You do realise that broccoli can be bought from outside the UK, I suppose? Try thinking a bit harder.
    Yes I do know that. I have no issue with that, do you?

    If farmers can compete with the global economy, paying farm workers a decent salary, then that is fantastic. If they can't, then the land can be repurposed to something more productive instead.
    So the farmer goes bust, the temporarily well-paid job which the worker got temporarily disappears, and our balance of payments worsens. This must be the tangible Brexit benefit everyone has been searching for.
    Yes, free trade.

    If the farmer is uncompetitive they should go bust and the land can be more useful even as wild natural land, or go to a farmer that's more competitive, or some other tangible use.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 3,642
    IshmaelZ said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Should thoroughly test the theory that Brits wont do this back breaking hard labour at any price.

    Followed swiftly by how willing we are to pay 20 quid for a head of broccoli...
    More likely, the broccoli just isn’t harvested and doesn’t make it to the shops. Nobody can buy that broccoli.

    Result:

    Less broccoli choice
    More expensive broccoli
    Fewer broccoli jobs
    More broccoli imports
    Fewer broccoli exports

    Now repeat across the entire economy.
    You forget: happier (if possibly less healthy) kids :wink:

    (although my two actually eat broccoli very happily - pretty much at the top of their veg preference list, maybe after sweetcorn - it's supposed to be something they hate, isn't it?)
    I once introduced a teenager to purple sprouting broccoli, which I prefer to calabrese and, indeed, regard as a seasonal delicacy. She was unimpressed, expecting "little trees".
    As a kid, we only ever had purple sprouting broccoli (from my dad's garden) and I prefer it, too. I was in my teens before I had calabrese, at a friend's house. Never had any luck growing either, myself - tried a couple of times and it bolts before there's a decent head. Everything else we've tried we've managed to grow well enough, so just shrugged and given up. Purple sprouting is rarely available to buy here and expensive, I do miss it.
    It's really easy to grow, delicious, first thing available in spring, and only bolts when you are fed up with it and have stopped harvesting. If you garden at all you should grow it
    Well, maybe we should try again then, perhaps out earlier, protected if necessary. Might be we've put the seedlings out too late (they were passed on from family as spares rather than grown by us) so they're not growing enough before going to seed...

    We do plenty else: carrots, peas, beans, pumpkins, peppers and tomatoes this year (plus fruit).
  • eekeek Posts: 19,277

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    Breaking

    Key cabinet ministers meeting this afternoon to address driver shortages and visa scheme

    If I was a lorry driver who had just got my first decent wage increase for a long time I would be seriously pissed.

    There are 6m EU citizens who already have rights to be here. I would be astonished if this did not include tens of thousands of drivers. But if they are being offered better wages elsewhere that is where they will go.
    +1

    The government probably needs to introduce a good quota system here - you can have 1 work permit for every 4/6/8 employed UK drivers.

    With the quota reduced in stages over the next 18 months
    What's wrong with the existing visa system?

    You can get a visa so long as the pay is the higher of the typical pay in the sector or £30,000.
    You've just capped HGV driver wages at £30K

    and removed the incentive for companies to pay to train new drivers up (why spend £5k training him, I can bring someone in from Bulgaria).
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 6,534
    edited September 2021

    Any SKS fans explain why Lab are on 32 in latest YG

    Thanks in advance

    30 mins and counting

    Come on SKS fans

    Surely RP could at least say but Corbyn Trot Trot Trot
    More seriously, WTF do they think they are doing reinstating Benn's electoral college? I find myself on the same side as Laura Pillock on this one - you have to let party members elect the leader as the other parties do. OK so you have a selectorate stage first, but the vote needs to go to members.

    At this stage, handing more power to the unions is the opposite of the image they want to give out. Union bosses still suffer from foaming-dog fever.
    The evidence that members choose good leaders is pretty damning, both here and abroad. Why should a process that does not achieve its goals be continued?

    I wouldnt be giving the unions a say, but nor do I support one member one vote for election of party leaders. They should be chosen by those who work with them and know them closely, not just the image they want to portray during a campaign.
    The problem is, it's a solution looking for a problem. Mandelson seems to be under the impression Starmer needs some sort of "Clause 4" moment, when in fact there isn't much of a constituency for this sort of politicking, and the kind of voters he may be seeking to attract with it are probably indifferent at best, or at worst, hostile, judging from today's polls.

    Even to the right-of-centre, it looks essentially like fairly unsubtle machine politicking, which it is. In Mandelson's day, the symbolism of taking on the left might have been more important and overriding.
  • This result seems off script


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    Soham North (East Cambridgeshire) by-election result:

    CON: 50.8% (+8.6)
    LDEM: 38.8% (-9.1)
    LAB: 7.5% (-2.5)
    GRN: 2.9% (+2.9)

    Conservative GAIN from Liberal Democrat.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 27,341
    Selebian said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Brexit is working, its the only gamebin town. Driver shortages, container shortages etc are everywhere.

    Driver shortages and container shortages aren't the same as food and petrol shortages, however. I haven't seen any reports of these in northern continental Europe up to now, which is what the Daily Mail constituency are beginning to notice also.
    Disruptions in supply may well vary but a shortage of drivers makes such disruptions inevitable and that seems pretty universal in Europe at the moment.

    There was a professional driver on R5 when I was driving home a couple of days ago who described how drivers had been treated as third class citizens, made to wait hours for both loads to be put on or taken off with no provision for them in terms of places to go and a pretty basic wage for a lonely, boring job. He admitted that he had just had a wage increase and that the supermarkets were now much keener to get them in and out. I am sure the likes of Tesco will want all its drivers on the road again as fast as possible at the moment.
    There are certainly multiple well-known problems with the industry that have been widely reported, but until or unless people see plain evidence that the problems are as bad in neighbouring countries - which they haven't, and neither have I, frankly - Brexit will feature heavily.
    I agree and made a similar point yesterday.

    In America people are facing the same issues but they just pay whatever escalated prices are needed and get on with it. Inflation is running higher there, but the invisible hand is doing its job.

    In the UK rather than 'Keep Calm And Carry On' we have 'whinge incessantly about Brexit'.

    If you want to moan and moan then that's fine, you have free speech. But it won't get much done, not like gritting your teeth and actually paying your drivers or for timber or whatever the price the market demands.
    I suggest that the issue is not necessarily Brexit itself, bit the apparent assumption in Government and Leavers generally, that 'we'll just Leave and all will be well'.

    Very little thought was given to anything other than the obvious, and in many cases that was bodged.
    All is well.

    Its not the Government's job to fix companies supply chains, that's their own job. If something needs to change, they need to change it, and the market will ensure they do.
    Thought boss of Tesco had said they had done everything in their power and shortages were still inevitable.

    Time to grant visas for lorry drivers methinks. The Government won't survive long if most petrol stations are shut.
    The boss of Tesco has a vested interest in not paying more.

    He should stop moaning and pay what is required. But leftwingers would rather blame Brexit than see people get a pay rise.
    The problem is that a pay rise doesn't stop the shortage, it just redistributes it. Same goes for social care, hospitality, health service, agriculture. The same people cannot be doing all these things.

    It is time to look at how consumerist society works, and consider what is unnecessary in terms of employment.
    If we could get human resources departments redeployed as HGV drivers the world would indeed be a happier place.
    Much more dangerous though. I'd not trust most HR departments I've encountered to be in charge of a few tonnes of fast-moving metal. They don't normally display good reaction times!
    I would have thought that HR would have been suited for other tasks.

    For example, the methodology of emptying the liquid oxygen tanks of the Long Lance torpedo for maintenance, in the Imperial Japanese Nay consisted of

    1) Place the torpedo on a remote sandbank or beach.
    2) Equip the most junior torpedoman with a spanner.
    3) Watch from a distance.

    Apparently quite a few torpedos were successfully drained like this.

    Do we have anything like that going?
  • carnforth said:

    The government seems to be escaping criticism for halting HGV driver tests during lockdown amidst all the other forms of criticism. Does anyone know what other countries did?

    I do know that we allowed uber and other taxis to operate freely throughout. Why was that safer and/or more important than doing an HGV test? It makes no sense at all to me, but perhaps I am missing something.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 13,868
    edited September 2021
    Lol at REAL Imperial units.

    Listening to a naval history prog in the background.

    "HMS Warrior's armour needed 33 foot tons of energy per inch of shot circumference to penetrate".

    :smile:

    (Yes, the French armour was poorer in quality.)
  • TazTaz Posts: 5,055
    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    Breaking

    Key cabinet ministers meeting this afternoon to address driver shortages and visa scheme

    If I was a lorry driver who had just got my first decent wage increase for a long time I would be seriously pissed.

    There are 6m EU citizens who already have rights to be here. I would be astonished if this did not include tens of thousands of drivers. But if they are being offered better wages elsewhere that is where they will go.
    +1

    The government probably needs to introduce a good quota system here - you can have 1 work permit for every 4/6/8 employed UK drivers.

    With the quota reduced in stages over the next 18 months
    That sounds eminently sensible. They won’t do it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,229
    Queues outside Tayside and Fife petrol stations as drivers urged ‘don’t panic buy’
    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/2601877/queues-outside-tayside-and-fife-petrol-stations-as-drivers-urged-dont-panic-buy/
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 52,249
    edited September 2021
    Other locals

    Britain Elects

    Wormholt & White City (Hammersmith & Fulham) by-election result:

    LAB: 70.0% (-5.6)
    CON: 20.6% (+6.3)
    GRN: 5.3% (+5.3)
    LDEM: 4.1% (-3.2)

    Labour HOLD.

    Britain Elects

    Cuddington (Epsom & Ewell) by-election result:

    RES: 56.0% (-9.1)
    LAB: 19.8% (+9.2)
    CON: 12.9% (+1.3)
    LDEM: 11.2% (-1.5)

    Residents' Association HOLD.


    Britain Elects

    Shepshed West (Charnwood) by-election result:

    CON: 43.6% (+2.2)
    LAB: 26.9% (+0.9)
    GRN: 25.7% (+14.4)
    LDEM: 3.8% (-3.9)

    Conservative HOLD.

    No UKIP (-13.5) as prev.

    Britain Elects

    Kendal North (South Lakeland) by-election result:

    LDEM: 46.9% (+8.7)
    GRN: 39.8% (+13.0)
    CON: 9.2% (-12.1)
    LAB: 4.1% (-9.6)

    Liberal Democrat HOLD.
  • eek said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    Breaking

    Key cabinet ministers meeting this afternoon to address driver shortages and visa scheme

    If I was a lorry driver who had just got my first decent wage increase for a long time I would be seriously pissed.

    There are 6m EU citizens who already have rights to be here. I would be astonished if this did not include tens of thousands of drivers. But if they are being offered better wages elsewhere that is where they will go.
    +1

    The government probably needs to introduce a good quota system here - you can have 1 work permit for every 4/6/8 employed UK drivers.

    With the quota reduced in stages over the next 18 months
    What's wrong with the existing visa system?

    You can get a visa so long as the pay is the higher of the typical pay in the sector or £30,000.
    You've just capped HGV driver wages at £30K

    and removed the incentive for companies to pay to train new drivers up (why spend £5k training him, I can bring someone in from Bulgaria).
    That's the existing system today, so why aren't people applying for visas already?
  • DavidL said:

    Breaking

    Key cabinet ministers meeting this afternoon to address driver shortages and visa scheme

    If I was a lorry driver who had just got my first decent wage increase for a long time I would be seriously pissed.

    There are 6m EU citizens who already have rights to be here. I would be astonished if this did not include tens of thousands of drivers. But if they are being offered better wages elsewhere that is where they will go.
    Why would they be pissed? This won't force down their wages, and it will improve conditions as the sector won't be under such massive pressure.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 10,281

    This result seems off script


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    Soham North (East Cambridgeshire) by-election result:

    CON: 50.8% (+8.6)
    LDEM: 38.8% (-9.1)
    LAB: 7.5% (-2.5)
    GRN: 2.9% (+2.9)

    Conservative GAIN from Liberal Democrat.

    You forgot this one in your spirit of objectivity.

    Kendal North (South Lakeland) by-election result:

    LDEM: 46.9% (+8.7)
    GRN: 39.8% (+13.0)
    CON: 9.2% (-12.1)
    LAB: 4.1% (-9.6)
  • Any SKS fans explain why Lab are on 32 in latest YG

    Thanks in advance

    30 mins and counting

    Come on SKS fans

    Surely RP could at least say but Corbyn Trot Trot Trot
    More seriously, WTF do they think they are doing reinstating Benn's electoral college? I find myself on the same side as Laura Pillock on this one - you have to let party members elect the leader as the other parties do. OK so you have a selectorate stage first, but the vote needs to go to members.

    At this stage, handing more power to the unions is the opposite of the image they want to give out. Union bosses still suffer from foaming-dog fever.
    The evidence that members choose good leaders is pretty damning, both here and abroad. Why should a process that does not achieve its goals be continued?

    I wouldnt be giving the unions a say, but nor do I support one member one vote for election of party leaders. They should be chosen by those who work with them and know them closely, not just the image they want to portray during a campaign.
    The problem is, it's a solution looking for a problem. Mandelson seems to be under the impression Starmer needs some sort of "Clause 4" moment, when in fact there isn't much of a constituency for this sort of politicking. Even to the right-of-centre it looks essentially like machine politicking, which really is what it is. In Mandelson's time the symbolism of taking on the left might have been more important.
    The problem is the existing structure regularly throws up the likes of Trump, Johnson and Corbyn, the likes of whom very rarely got anywhere near power when it was mostly down to active politicians who worked with prospective candidates, rather than memberships. It does need changing, even if it is not urgent.
  • eekeek Posts: 19,277

    eek said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    Breaking

    Key cabinet ministers meeting this afternoon to address driver shortages and visa scheme

    If I was a lorry driver who had just got my first decent wage increase for a long time I would be seriously pissed.

    There are 6m EU citizens who already have rights to be here. I would be astonished if this did not include tens of thousands of drivers. But if they are being offered better wages elsewhere that is where they will go.
    +1

    The government probably needs to introduce a good quota system here - you can have 1 work permit for every 4/6/8 employed UK drivers.

    With the quota reduced in stages over the next 18 months
    What's wrong with the existing visa system?

    You can get a visa so long as the pay is the higher of the typical pay in the sector or £30,000.
    You've just capped HGV driver wages at £30K

    and removed the incentive for companies to pay to train new drivers up (why spend £5k training him, I can bring someone in from Bulgaria).
    That's the existing system today, so why aren't people applying for visas already?
    Do some research and find out why yourself - it's obvious...
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 17,146
    Selebian said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Selebian said:

    Selebian said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Should thoroughly test the theory that Brits wont do this back breaking hard labour at any price.

    Followed swiftly by how willing we are to pay 20 quid for a head of broccoli...
    More likely, the broccoli just isn’t harvested and doesn’t make it to the shops. Nobody can buy that broccoli.

    Result:

    Less broccoli choice
    More expensive broccoli
    Fewer broccoli jobs
    More broccoli imports
    Fewer broccoli exports

    Now repeat across the entire economy.
    You forget: happier (if possibly less healthy) kids :wink:

    (although my two actually eat broccoli very happily - pretty much at the top of their veg preference list, maybe after sweetcorn - it's supposed to be something they hate, isn't it?)
    I once introduced a teenager to purple sprouting broccoli, which I prefer to calabrese and, indeed, regard as a seasonal delicacy. She was unimpressed, expecting "little trees".
    As a kid, we only ever had purple sprouting broccoli (from my dad's garden) and I prefer it, too. I was in my teens before I had calabrese, at a friend's house. Never had any luck growing either, myself - tried a couple of times and it bolts before there's a decent head. Everything else we've tried we've managed to grow well enough, so just shrugged and given up. Purple sprouting is rarely available to buy here and expensive, I do miss it.
    It's really easy to grow, delicious, first thing available in spring, and only bolts when you are fed up with it and have stopped harvesting. If you garden at all you should grow it
    Well, maybe we should try again then, perhaps out earlier, protected if necessary. Might be we've put the seedlings out too late (they were passed on from family as spares rather than grown by us) so they're not growing enough before going to seed...

    We do plenty else: carrots, peas, beans, pumpkins, peppers and tomatoes this year (plus fruit).
    I'm talking specifically about PSB - you said it was calabrese that was bolting? Difference being PSB overwinters and ripens in spring so bolting much less likely. ... Sorry now see I misread, you have had problems with both. But keep trying.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 3,642
    edited September 2021

    This result seems off script


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    Soham North (East Cambridgeshire) by-election result:

    CON: 50.8% (+8.6)
    LDEM: 38.8% (-9.1)
    LAB: 7.5% (-2.5)
    GRN: 2.9% (+2.9)

    Conservative GAIN from Liberal Democrat.

    All those east-anglian broccoli pickers now on £60k voting Tory for the first time due to the Brexit dividend :wink:

    (They'll trend LD or Lab once they're no longer nouveau riche and truly part of the non-metropolitan liberal elite)
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 34,893

    carnforth said:

    The government seems to be escaping criticism for halting HGV driver tests during lockdown amidst all the other forms of criticism. Does anyone know what other countries did?

    I do know that we allowed uber and other taxis to operate freely throughout. Why was that safer and/or more important than doing an HGV test? It makes no sense at all to me, but perhaps I am missing something.
    You aren't. It was a completely idiotic decision from Grant Shapps to halt all driving tests (including HGV licence renewals).
  • Scott_xP said:

    Long queues at this BP garage in Twyford. Staff having to manage the influx of cars… closing every so often when it gets too busy. Drivers coming here after another #petrol station nearby ran dry. Staff tell me they DO have enough supply until the weekend - hopefully. https://twitter.com/LomasChar/status/1441370915527282691/video/1

    People need to calm down. The government will bring in army drivers if need be - a shortage of fuel would not be good for them. So it will be sorted. My PHEV is on 70 miles of fuel range but I managed to restrain myself from filling the tank earlier because I'm not going anywhere other than locally for the next week.
  • This result seems off script


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    Soham North (East Cambridgeshire) by-election result:

    CON: 50.8% (+8.6)
    LDEM: 38.8% (-9.1)
    LAB: 7.5% (-2.5)
    GRN: 2.9% (+2.9)

    Conservative GAIN from Liberal Democrat.

    I can think of one potential local effect in Soham: they've a new train station opening soon (December?). I would not be surprised if the investment had had an effect on voting.

    https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/anglia/improving-the-railway-in-anglia/reconnecting-soham/

    A few years back, we went to Soham village fete. Whilst there, someone told us that the village was famous for two things: a massive ammunition train explosion in 1944, and the Soham murders. He wished it could be famous for something more positive ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soham_rail_disaster
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 42,881

    DavidL said:

    Breaking

    Key cabinet ministers meeting this afternoon to address driver shortages and visa scheme

    If I was a lorry driver who had just got my first decent wage increase for a long time I would be seriously pissed.

    There are 6m EU citizens who already have rights to be here. I would be astonished if this did not include tens of thousands of drivers. But if they are being offered better wages elsewhere that is where they will go.
    Why would they be pissed? This won't force down their wages, and it will improve conditions as the sector won't be under such massive pressure.
    Like it has improved conditions and wages over the last 20 years? They have finally got a negotiation position but that is apparently not acceptable and must now be undermined. I am sure that they should just be grateful, or something.

    If they are lucky the shortfall of drivers in the EU will mean that the competition is limited.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 34,893

    eek said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    Breaking

    Key cabinet ministers meeting this afternoon to address driver shortages and visa scheme

    If I was a lorry driver who had just got my first decent wage increase for a long time I would be seriously pissed.

    There are 6m EU citizens who already have rights to be here. I would be astonished if this did not include tens of thousands of drivers. But if they are being offered better wages elsewhere that is where they will go.
    +1

    The government probably needs to introduce a good quota system here - you can have 1 work permit for every 4/6/8 employed UK drivers.

    With the quota reduced in stages over the next 18 months
    What's wrong with the existing visa system?

    You can get a visa so long as the pay is the higher of the typical pay in the sector or £30,000.
    You've just capped HGV driver wages at £30K

    and removed the incentive for companies to pay to train new drivers up (why spend £5k training him, I can bring someone in from Bulgaria).
    That's the existing system today, so why aren't people applying for visas already?
    HGV drivers are not on the list iirc and the more open scheme has yet to be implemented so it's a mix of tier 2 skilled worker visas plus the lower salary limit.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 6,534
    edited September 2021

    Any SKS fans explain why Lab are on 32 in latest YG

    Thanks in advance

    30 mins and counting

    Come on SKS fans

    Surely RP could at least say but Corbyn Trot Trot Trot
    More seriously, WTF do they think they are doing reinstating Benn's electoral college? I find myself on the same side as Laura Pillock on this one - you have to let party members elect the leader as the other parties do. OK so you have a selectorate stage first, but the vote needs to go to members.

    At this stage, handing more power to the unions is the opposite of the image they want to give out. Union bosses still suffer from foaming-dog fever.
    The evidence that members choose good leaders is pretty damning, both here and abroad. Why should a process that does not achieve its goals be continued?

    I wouldnt be giving the unions a say, but nor do I support one member one vote for election of party leaders. They should be chosen by those who work with them and know them closely, not just the image they want to portray during a campaign.
    The problem is, it's a solution looking for a problem. Mandelson seems to be under the impression Starmer needs some sort of "Clause 4" moment, when in fact there isn't much of a constituency for this sort of politicking. Even to the right-of-centre it looks essentially like machine politicking, which really is what it is. In Mandelson's time the symbolism of taking on the left might have been more important.
    The problem is the existing structure regularly throws up the likes of Trump, Johnson and Corbyn, the likes of whom very rarely got anywhere near power when it was mostly down to active politicians who worked with prospective candidates, rather than memberships. It does need changing, even if it is not urgent.
    I'm not sure you can compare those processes, because that might be to blur the criteria of current popularity with the process of election. I don't think one can really compare Miliband's intentions in setting up the Labour system with the process that elected Trump, for instance.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Long queues at this BP garage in Twyford. Staff having to manage the influx of cars… closing every so often when it gets too busy. Drivers coming here after another #petrol station nearby ran dry. Staff tell me they DO have enough supply until the weekend - hopefully. https://twitter.com/LomasChar/status/1441370915527282691/video/1

    People need to calm down. The government will bring in army drivers if need be - a shortage of fuel would not be good for them. So it will be sorted. My PHEV is on 70 miles of fuel range but I managed to restrain myself from filling the tank earlier because I'm not going anywhere other than locally for the next week.
    @Scott_P needs to calm down as well

    There are no fuel shortages and as you say the army can step in if necessary

    It will be interesting to hear what comes out of the cabinet this pm
  • stodge said:

    This result seems off script


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    Soham North (East Cambridgeshire) by-election result:

    CON: 50.8% (+8.6)
    LDEM: 38.8% (-9.1)
    LAB: 7.5% (-2.5)
    GRN: 2.9% (+2.9)

    Conservative GAIN from Liberal Democrat.

    You forgot this one in your spirit of objectivity.

    Kendal North (South Lakeland) by-election result:

    LDEM: 46.9% (+8.7)
    GRN: 39.8% (+13.0)
    CON: 9.2% (-12.1)
    LAB: 4.1% (-9.6)
    No - I have posted it
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 42,881
    Scott_xP said:

    Queues outside Tayside and Fife petrol stations as drivers urged ‘don’t panic buy’
    https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/2601877/queues-outside-tayside-and-fife-petrol-stations-as-drivers-urged-dont-panic-buy/

    I live there. I have not seen any such queues nor have I seen any garages without fuel this week. Asda had some pumps closed because of a lack of fuel last week for a day or two. This does seem to be a panic brought on by irresponsible journalism.
  • eekeek Posts: 19,277
    edited September 2021
    MaxPB said:

    carnforth said:

    The government seems to be escaping criticism for halting HGV driver tests during lockdown amidst all the other forms of criticism. Does anyone know what other countries did?

    I do know that we allowed uber and other taxis to operate freely throughout. Why was that safer and/or more important than doing an HGV test? It makes no sense at all to me, but perhaps I am missing something.
    You aren't. It was a completely idiotic decision from Grant Shapps to halt all driving tests (including HGV licence renewals).
    I think the issue went

    Uber driver - can make their own decision (as they are self employed, so in reality had zero choice but to continue working)
    Driver tester - can't be forced to work in an unsafe environment....
  • PJH said:

    Update on petrol and empty shelves in suburban east London- in my local Sainsbury's this morning, the usual spotty gaps as per recently on the shelves, generally not as full as say 6 months ago but most things available. The most obvious gap was on the pasta aisle. I was able to get everything I wanted but I did take the last bottle of Bishop's Finger (other beers remain available).

    Outside, quite a few cars queueing for fuel, presumably on the basis that if the government says there is no need to panic buy, then one should buy.

    I like a Bishop's Finger but it is an almost guaranteed hangover.
  • Any SKS fans explain why Lab are on 32 in latest YG

    Thanks in advance

    30 mins and counting

    Come on SKS fans

    Surely RP could at least say but Corbyn Trot Trot Trot
    More seriously, WTF do they think they are doing reinstating Benn's electoral college? I find myself on the same side as Laura Pillock on this one - you have to let party members elect the leader as the other parties do. OK so you have a selectorate stage first, but the vote needs to go to members.

    At this stage, handing more power to the unions is the opposite of the image they want to give out. Union bosses still suffer from foaming-dog fever.
    The evidence that members choose good leaders is pretty damning, both here and abroad. Why should a process that does not achieve its goals be continued?

    I wouldnt be giving the unions a say, but nor do I support one member one vote for election of party leaders. They should be chosen by those who work with them and know them closely, not just the image they want to portray during a campaign.
    The problem is, it's a solution looking for a problem. Mandelson seems to be under the impression Starmer needs some sort of "Clause 4" moment, when in fact there isn't much of a constituency for this sort of politicking. Even to the right-of-centre it looks essentially like machine politicking, which really is what it is. In Mandelson's time the symbolism of taking on the left might have been more important.
    The problem is the existing structure regularly throws up the likes of Trump, Johnson and Corbyn, the likes of whom very rarely got anywhere near power when it was mostly down to active politicians who worked with prospective candidates, rather than memberships. It does need changing, even if it is not urgent.
    I'm not sure you can compare those processes, because that might be to blur the criteria of current popularity with the process of election. I don't think one can really compare Miliband's intentions in setting up the Labour system with the process that elected Trump, for instance.
    I am sure the intentions were good. But the outcomes are bad. Re-design the process.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 27,341
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Breaking

    Key cabinet ministers meeting this afternoon to address driver shortages and visa scheme

    If I was a lorry driver who had just got my first decent wage increase for a long time I would be seriously pissed.

    There are 6m EU citizens who already have rights to be here. I would be astonished if this did not include tens of thousands of drivers. But if they are being offered better wages elsewhere that is where they will go.
    Why would they be pissed? This won't force down their wages, and it will improve conditions as the sector won't be under such massive pressure.
    Like it has improved conditions and wages over the last 20 years? They have finally got a negotiation position but that is apparently not acceptable and must now be undermined. I am sure that they should just be grateful, or something.

    If they are lucky the shortfall of drivers in the EU will mean that the competition is limited.
    What about -

    - unlimited visas
    - for PAYE employment at £50K a year
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 39,742

    Scott_xP said:

    Long queues at this BP garage in Twyford. Staff having to manage the influx of cars… closing every so often when it gets too busy. Drivers coming here after another #petrol station nearby ran dry. Staff tell me they DO have enough supply until the weekend - hopefully. https://twitter.com/LomasChar/status/1441370915527282691/video/1

    People need to calm down. The government will bring in army drivers if need be - a shortage of fuel would not be good for them. So it will be sorted. My PHEV is on 70 miles of fuel range but I managed to restrain myself from filling the tank earlier because I'm not going anywhere other than locally for the next week.
    There are no fuel shortages and as you say the army can step in if necessary...
    ??
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,229

    People need to calm down. The government will bring in army drivers if need be

    Are these the same Army drivers that are driving ambulances in Scotland?

    Or the same ones being sent to Northern Ireland?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,229
    A turkey farmer on LBC right now

    His industry has been crippled by lack of EU workers

    So he, like others, is having to reduce turkey supply

    Which means there will be a UK shortage of turkeys

    Which means…

    Supermarkets will fill the shortage by buying…

    TURKEYS FROM THE EU


    https://twitter.com/MarinaPurkiss/status/1441356626720555014
  • Scott_xP said:

    A turkey farmer on LBC right now

    His industry has been crippled by lack of EU workers

    So he, like others, is having to reduce turkey supply

    Which means there will be a UK shortage of turkeys

    Which means…

    Supermarkets will fill the shortage by buying…

    TURKEYS FROM THE EU


    https://twitter.com/MarinaPurkiss/status/1441356626720555014

    Good.

    If the turkey farmer can't compete then what are they doing farming turkey?

    If they can, good luck to them.
  • felixfelix Posts: 14,261

    Scott_xP said:

    Long queues at this BP garage in Twyford. Staff having to manage the influx of cars… closing every so often when it gets too busy. Drivers coming here after another #petrol station nearby ran dry. Staff tell me they DO have enough supply until the weekend - hopefully. https://twitter.com/LomasChar/status/1441370915527282691/video/1

    People need to calm down. The government will bring in army drivers if need be - a shortage of fuel would not be good for them. So it will be sorted. My PHEV is on 70 miles of fuel range but I managed to restrain myself from filling the tank earlier because I'm not going anywhere other than locally for the next week.
    Scott lives for disaster news - who can forget the fake Covid figures he posted because it made the UK look bad. Sadly there is no known cure or vaccine for BDS.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,229
    Is it possible for the government to be any more incompetent? We are now pleading for an emergency agreement to provide "some kind of food that is lacking in England". What next - Care Packages?

    https://www.politico.eu/article/british-pm-johnson-wanted-emergency-food-deal-says-brazils-bolsonaro-embassy-disagrees/
  • eekeek Posts: 19,277
    Scott_xP said:

    A turkey farmer on LBC right now

    His industry has been crippled by lack of EU workers

    So he, like others, is having to reduce turkey supply

    Which means there will be a UK shortage of turkeys

    Which means…

    Supermarkets will fill the shortage by buying…

    TURKEYS FROM THE EU


    https://twitter.com/MarinaPurkiss/status/1441356626720555014

    only if there is spare supply in the EU..

    But I don't see the problem, they just need to pay more until people are willing to do the work required. And if they can't, we can always import from the EU...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 34,893
    Scott_xP said:

    People need to calm down. The government will bring in army drivers if need be

    Are these the same Army drivers that are driving ambulances in Scotland?

    Or the same ones being sent to Northern Ireland?
    You do realise that the army has got tanker drivers, right? How stupid are you?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 39,742
    China declares all cryptocurrency transactions illegal
    https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/world/2021/09/683_315988.html
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 42,881

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Breaking

    Key cabinet ministers meeting this afternoon to address driver shortages and visa scheme

    If I was a lorry driver who had just got my first decent wage increase for a long time I would be seriously pissed.

    There are 6m EU citizens who already have rights to be here. I would be astonished if this did not include tens of thousands of drivers. But if they are being offered better wages elsewhere that is where they will go.
    Why would they be pissed? This won't force down their wages, and it will improve conditions as the sector won't be under such massive pressure.
    Like it has improved conditions and wages over the last 20 years? They have finally got a negotiation position but that is apparently not acceptable and must now be undermined. I am sure that they should just be grateful, or something.

    If they are lucky the shortfall of drivers in the EU will mean that the competition is limited.
    What about -

    - unlimited visas
    - for PAYE employment at £50K a year
    I don't have any problems with immigration at that level because they are clearly meeting a need that cannot be met more cheaply by the indigenous population.

    I have much more of a problem with the many casualties of our truly crap education system (for those other than the elite) finding themselves out competed for minimum wage jobs by people who are willing to undercut those entitlements because it is still way more than they can hope to get at home just so we can have cheap deliveries, care providers, crop pickers and cappuccinos. To me this is not only very poor economics, it is morally wrong with the better off professional classes exploiting those least able to provide for themselves with what amounts to unfair competition.

    The red wallers (and this is obviously a simplistic generalisation) voted with their wallets against the professional classes. They were absolutely right to do so. And the professionals now need to stop squealing and pay up.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Is it possible for the government to be any more incompetent? We are now pleading for an emergency agreement to provide "some kind of food that is lacking in England". What next - Care Packages?

    https://www.politico.eu/article/british-pm-johnson-wanted-emergency-food-deal-says-brazils-bolsonaro-embassy-disagrees/

    So now Bolsonaro is the undisputed vendor of truth in Scott's world? When what Bolsonaro has to say is flatly denied by others?

    Interesting to see what depths Scott is prepared to scrape each day.
  • MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    People need to calm down. The government will bring in army drivers if need be

    Are these the same Army drivers that are driving ambulances in Scotland?

    Or the same ones being sent to Northern Ireland?
    You do realise that the army has got tanker drivers, right? How stupid are you?
    He really is isn't he
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,229
    MaxPB said:

    You do realise that the army has got tanker drivers, right?

    Yes.

    And my question was are they already driving ambulances in Scotland, or in Northern Ireland?

    How stupid are you?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,315
    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    A turkey farmer on LBC right now

    His industry has been crippled by lack of EU workers

    So he, like others, is having to reduce turkey supply

    Which means there will be a UK shortage of turkeys

    Which means…

    Supermarkets will fill the shortage by buying…

    TURKEYS FROM THE EU


    https://twitter.com/MarinaPurkiss/status/1441356626720555014

    only if there is spare supply in the EU..

    But I don't see the problem, they just need to pay more until people are willing to do the work required. And if they can't, we can always import from the EU...
    "Boss mad because they have to pay staff more" doesn't really make for a compelling headline, does it?
  • eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    A turkey farmer on LBC right now

    His industry has been crippled by lack of EU workers

    So he, like others, is having to reduce turkey supply

    Which means there will be a UK shortage of turkeys

    Which means…

    Supermarkets will fill the shortage by buying…

    TURKEYS FROM THE EU


    https://twitter.com/MarinaPurkiss/status/1441356626720555014

    only if there is spare supply in the EU..

    But I don't see the problem, they just need to pay more until people are willing to do the work required. And if they can't, we can always import from the EU...
    Exactly
  • Scott_xP said:

    MaxPB said:

    You do realise that the army has got tanker drivers, right?

    Yes.

    And my question was are they already driving ambulances in Scotland, or in Northern Ireland?

    How stupid are you?
    Ambulances aren't tankers. 🤦‍♂️
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 6,534
    edited September 2021
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Breaking

    Key cabinet ministers meeting this afternoon to address driver shortages and visa scheme

    If I was a lorry driver who had just got my first decent wage increase for a long time I would be seriously pissed.

    There are 6m EU citizens who already have rights to be here. I would be astonished if this did not include tens of thousands of drivers. But if they are being offered better wages elsewhere that is where they will go.
    Why would they be pissed? This won't force down their wages, and it will improve conditions as the sector won't be under such massive pressure.
    Like it has improved conditions and wages over the last 20 years? They have finally got a negotiation position but that is apparently not acceptable and must now be undermined. I am sure that they should just be grateful, or something.

    If they are lucky the shortfall of drivers in the EU will mean that the competition is limited.
    What about -

    - unlimited visas
    - for PAYE employment at £50K a year
    I don't have any problems with immigration at that level because they are clearly meeting a need that cannot be met more cheaply by the indigenous population.

    I have much more of a problem with the many casualties of our truly crap education system (for those other than the elite) finding themselves out competed for minimum wage jobs by people who are willing to undercut those entitlements because it is still way more than they can hope to get at home just so we can have cheap deliveries, care providers, crop pickers and cappuccinos. To me this is not only very poor economics, it is morally wrong with the better off professional classes exploiting those least able to provide for themselves with what amounts to unfair competition.

    The red wallers (and this is obviously a simplistic generalisation) voted with their wallets against the professional classes. They were absolutely right to do so. And the professionals now need to stop squealing and pay up.
    There was a large affluent, and older, block who voted for Brexit, and many poorer and younger urban voters in places like London and Manchester who voted for remain.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,013
    So visa loosenings for hauliers it is. Boris as usual folding and taking the path of least resistance for his client vote, one more stab in the front to the working class brexit vote that delivered him his majority.

    No doubt Sunak is nodding along at how this is a sensible compromise.

    What does Wes Streeting have to say?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 22,229
    So none of the Brexit cheerleaders can answer the question as to whether the Army drivers they are relying on have already been deployed.

    There is no shame in admitting you don't know, lads.
  • Scott_xP said:

    So none of the Brexit cheerleaders can answer the question as to whether the Army drivers they are relying on have already been deployed.

    There is no shame in admitting you don't know, lads.

    Its a bloody stupid question. Why would tanker drivers be the ones driving ambulances?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 42,881

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Breaking

    Key cabinet ministers meeting this afternoon to address driver shortages and visa scheme

    If I was a lorry driver who had just got my first decent wage increase for a long time I would be seriously pissed.

    There are 6m EU citizens who already have rights to be here. I would be astonished if this did not include tens of thousands of drivers. But if they are being offered better wages elsewhere that is where they will go.
    Why would they be pissed? This won't force down their wages, and it will improve conditions as the sector won't be under such massive pressure.
    Like it has improved conditions and wages over the last 20 years? They have finally got a negotiation position but that is apparently not acceptable and must now be undermined. I am sure that they should just be grateful, or something.

    If they are lucky the shortfall of drivers in the EU will mean that the competition is limited.
    What about -

    - unlimited visas
    - for PAYE employment at £50K a year
    I don't have any problems with immigration at that level because they are clearly meeting a need that cannot be met more cheaply by the indigenous population.

    I have much more of a problem with the many casualties of our truly crap education system (for those other than the elite) finding themselves out competed for minimum wage jobs by people who are willing to undercut those entitlements because it is still way more than they can hope to get at home just so we can have cheap deliveries, care providers, crop pickers and cappuccinos. To me this is not only very poor economics, it is morally wrong with the better off professional classes exploiting those least able to provide for themselves with what amounts to unfair competition.

    The red wallers (and this is obviously a simplistic generalisation) voted with their wallets against the professional classes. They were absolutely right to do so. And the professionals now need to stop squealing and pay up.
    There was a large affluent block that voted for Brexit, and many poorer voters in places like London and Manchester who voted remain.
    Sure, I am reasonably affluent and I voted for Brexit. But the patronising rubbish that those on low wages only voted for Brexit because they were too stupid or did not see the benefits and disbenefits for themselves is based upon narrow self interest and a lack of comprehension about how too many in this country live.
This discussion has been closed.