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The front pages that should frighten ministers – politicalbetting.com

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  • Farooq said:

    AlistairM said:

    When will the media learn their lessons about talking about panic buying? They are the cause of it.

    If a few BPs have to close because a shortage of drivers do not put it as your main news headline. As a result of them putting it as a main story, every driver who gets less than 3/4 full will be stopping in at the petrol stations. This just makes things worse.

    We saw exactly the same with loo roll last year. There was more than enough to go around but when you had people going in and literally filling their entire trolley with the stuff then there won't be.

    Absolute madness. I despise people who really have no need to make long or regular journeys filling up their vehicles just in case. I despise the media more for causing this.

    Bring back ration books!
    I remember those very well in what looking back seems to have been a very sepia world at the time
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,231
    DavidL said:

    Macron and Johnson spoke today!

    Élysée readout: “Boris Johnson expressed his intention to reestablish cooperation between France & the UK, in line with our values & our shared interests (climate, IndoPacific, CT). The President responded that he was waiting for his proposals"

    Here's the Downing St readout, rather different in tone


    https://twitter.com/estwebber/status/1441392720321265676?s=20

    I am almost tempted to speculate that Boris insisted in conducting the entire conversation in his Franglais, just for the LOLs.

    “prenez un grip” and “donnez-moi un break” . Genius.
    OTOH, he's not writing for the DT in Miles Kington mode. He's supposed to be a responsible first minister of state running the country.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Question for the PB Brexit Brain Trust

    How can a problem (shortage of HGV drivers) that was absolutely, definitely not caused by Brexit, be eased by abandoning part of Brexit?

    Take your time...

    Because a "shortage of drivers" is not a problem.
    Oh yes it is!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,235
    "Donnez-moi un break, Donnez-moi un Kit-Kat".
    https://twitter.com/Daniel_Sugarman/status/1441050018916491270
  • Scott_xP said:

    Question for the PB Brexit Brain Trust

    How can a problem (shortage of HGV drivers) that was absolutely, definitely not caused by Brexit, be eased by abandoning part of Brexit?

    Take your time...

    Because a "shortage of drivers" is not a problem.
    Oh yes it is!
    Oh no it isn't!

    Why haven't you tried a major pay rise if there's such a serious shortage? Did you really expect a piddly 11% pay rise to bring people back into the sector?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,235
    Anyway please hold Tories sent out onto the radio to explain why this definitely definitely wasn’t down to Brexit in your thoughts
    https://twitter.com/gabyhinsliff/status/1441397168053628931
  • Scott_xP said:

    Anyway please hold Tories sent out onto the radio to explain why this definitely definitely wasn’t down to Brexit in your thoughts
    https://twitter.com/gabyhinsliff/status/1441397168053628931

    Strange how you can't seem to understand the concept it was down to Brexit and it is a good thing.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 26,827

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Refer to my earlier post today. Would they tough out the rebalancing of the UK haulage industry or cave. They caved.
    How long until restaurant owners want the same deal, or hoteliers, or pub chains? Boris bottled it.
    The problem is in the government thinking that they know better than employers which workers are in demand.
    Given that employers havent trained enough people or paid those they have sufficient to retain them, why on earth do we think employers know best ? Employers bet the farm on a system that moved core skills outside the UK and have now been caught out horribly when a major crisis rolled over the horizon.
    Not as if the DfT were doing their best to keep testing the necessary skills, though.
    I haven't seen a single spokesperson for a firm come on the media and say that they've got recruits but they can't get tests for them.

    What I have seen is people whine that pay rises are happening so we need immigration.

    If we'd had six months of people saying "we need more tests" instead of "we need more low wage immigration" this would have been a very different conversation.
    The employing firms generally don't do (much) training. They previously employed people who could drive already or contracted with them.

    Training îs a dirty word in many companies in the UK. Like crevice.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 34,652
    DavidL said:

    Macron and Johnson spoke today!

    Élysée readout: “Boris Johnson expressed his intention to reestablish cooperation between France & the UK, in line with our values & our shared interests (climate, IndoPacific, CT). The President responded that he was waiting for his proposals"

    Here's the Downing St readout, rather different in tone


    https://twitter.com/estwebber/status/1441392720321265676?s=20

    I am almost tempted to speculate that Boris insisted in conducting the entire conversation in his Franglais, just for the LOLs.

    “prenez un grip” and “donnez-moi un break” . Genius.
    The best bit is that Boris speaks perfect fluent French and could easily go there and live without anyone realising he's not French were he not Boris. He's said it specifically to annoy Macron.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,235
    Visa relaxation to avert growing HGV crisis now a highly likely outcome from this afternoon's meeting of cabinet ministers. am told

    All as part of a wider package of measures

    First reported by the FT


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    The central tenet of Brexit abandoned at the first whiff of gunsmoke.

    The BoZo fanbois must be so proud...
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 1,283
    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,231

    Carnyx said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Refer to my earlier post today. Would they tough out the rebalancing of the UK haulage industry or cave. They caved.
    How long until restaurant owners want the same deal, or hoteliers, or pub chains? Boris bottled it.
    The problem is in the government thinking that they know better than employers which workers are in demand.
    Given that employers havent trained enough people or paid those they have sufficient to retain them, why on earth do we think employers know best ? Employers bet the farm on a system that moved core skills outside the UK and have now been caught out horribly when a major crisis rolled over the horizon.
    Not as if the DfT were doing their best to keep testing the necessary skills, though.
    I haven't seen a single spokesperson for a firm come on the media and say that they've got recruits but they can't get tests for them.

    What I have seen is people whine that pay rises are happening so we need immigration.

    If we'd had six months of people saying "we need more tests" instead of "we need more low wage immigration" this would have been a very different conversation.
    https://motortransport.co.uk/blog/2021/02/25/resolve-test-backlog-and-driver-shortage-logistics-uk-urges-government/

    OK, 6 months minus a day, but ...
  • nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
  • eekeek Posts: 18,832
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Refer to my earlier post today. Would they tough out the rebalancing of the UK haulage industry or cave. They caved.
    How long until restaurant owners want the same deal, or hoteliers, or pub chains? Boris bottled it.
    The problem is in the government thinking that they know better than employers which workers are in demand.
    Given that employers havent trained enough people or paid those they have sufficient to retain them, why on earth do we think employers know best ? Employers bet the farm on a system that moved core skills outside the UK and have now been caught out horribly when a major crisis rolled over the horizon.
    Looking forward to hearing your 5 year plan, Chairman Al.
    My 2 year plan for HGV drivers

    Now 1 permit for every 4 UK drivers you employ
    March 2022 1 permit per 5 UK drivers - to qualify that 5th driver most be newly trained
    October 2022 1 permit per 6 UK drivers - to qualify 2 drivers most be newly trained
    June 2023 1 permit per 8 drivers - to qualify 3 drivers must be newly trained
    January 2024 all work permits removed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 38,655
    Dura_Ace said:

    Hmm.

    Odds on Taiwan being invaded before the year ends?

    Reasons this could happen:
    1) domestic trouble in China's economy provokes a military adventure response to restore some goodwill
    2) waving your guns around can help remind anyone thinking of protesting how that might go
    3) AUKUS is nascent and wider allies (Japan, India, etc) are not collectively held together in a formal alliance so attacking now rather than waiting for an anti-China (or counter-China) alliance to really get going may be wise
    4) Xi has been building up Chinese military strength for quite some time now (this is a general rather than time-specific point, of course)

    The odds are 0%.

    China has a strategy for Taiwan (dissent from within, constriction from without) that's working and will deliver Taiwan within a decade or two. They patiently waited 20+ years for Hong Kong.
    That's at least what they hope.
    HK isn't remotely comparable, since it was certain they were going to get it back. Taiwan has an unfortunate and unpredictable thing called democracy, and not the 'misunderstood' version that apparently exists on the mainland.

    The odds of something kicking off in the next decade are slightly higher than zero.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 34,541

    TOPPING said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Refer to my earlier post today. Would they tough out the rebalancing of the UK haulage industry or cave. They caved.
    How long until restaurant owners want the same deal, or hoteliers, or pub chains? Boris bottled it.
    The problem is in the government thinking that they know better than employers which workers are in demand.
    Agreed.

    If you're going to have free movement then a sensible way to do it was posited earlier "free movement for anyone PAYE over £50k". Or something along those lines.

    But I wouldn't restrict it to Europe, I'd have it global.

    Let the high-skilled, high-wage jobs come here not deflate our economy with minimum wage jobs.
    Why £50k?
    I didn't say it, someone else did, I was quoting them.

    While I believe in flat taxes, under our current system it kind of makes sense to be offering immigration to those on higher rate tax incomes.
    So we suffer these shortages. Doesn't seem an optimal way to run a country.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 34,652
    eek said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Refer to my earlier post today. Would they tough out the rebalancing of the UK haulage industry or cave. They caved.
    How long until restaurant owners want the same deal, or hoteliers, or pub chains? Boris bottled it.
    The problem is in the government thinking that they know better than employers which workers are in demand.
    Given that employers havent trained enough people or paid those they have sufficient to retain them, why on earth do we think employers know best ? Employers bet the farm on a system that moved core skills outside the UK and have now been caught out horribly when a major crisis rolled over the horizon.
    Looking forward to hearing your 5 year plan, Chairman Al.
    My 2 year plan for HGV drivers

    Now 1 permit for every 4 UK drivers you employ
    March 2022 1 permit per 5 UK drivers - to qualify that 5th driver most be newly trained
    October 2022 1 permit per 6 UK drivers - to qualify 2 drivers most be newly trained
    June 2023 1 permit per 8 drivers - to qualify 3 drivers must be newly trained
    January 2024 all work permits removed.
    That's actually a good plan.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,235
    nico679 said:

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Never give up! Never surrender!!!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 19,771
    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    Macron and Johnson spoke today!

    Élysée readout: “Boris Johnson expressed his intention to reestablish cooperation between France & the UK, in line with our values & our shared interests (climate, IndoPacific, CT). The President responded that he was waiting for his proposals"

    Here's the Downing St readout, rather different in tone


    https://twitter.com/estwebber/status/1441392720321265676?s=20

    I am almost tempted to speculate that Boris insisted in conducting the entire conversation in his Franglais, just for the LOLs.

    “prenez un grip” and “donnez-moi un break” . Genius.
    The best bit is that Boris speaks perfect fluent French and could easily go there and live without anyone realising he's not French were he not Boris. He's said it specifically to annoy Macron.
    Tbf. They're likely to pick him for a Belgain.
  • Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    It increases the supply of labour to the detriment of the indigenous supply.

    Confirming it was caused by Brexit.

    Not the answer to the question I asked, but OK
    The ending of freedom of movement through Brexit has seen wage increases, especially for the lower paid by the ending of cheap labour and has allowed us to tailor our immigration to attract higher paid workers into our economy where we have need

    It is the success story of Brexit and I find it hard to believe that deep down you cannot just accept this

    It can be said that Junckers should have conceded to Cameron on freedom of movement and to be honest the referendum would not have happened and we would still be in the EU if a compromise had been reached

    There was absolutely nothing to stop anyone being paid more before we left the EU, of course. It's just that we decided to gut the trade union movement and remove just about every piece of leverage workers had to negotiate themselves better pay and conditions. It would be nice to think at least a few people now accept that was a mistake. But I doubt it. Next time we see any strikes that are about getting more pay for the low paid, the strikers will be routinely condemned, just as they always are.

  • Scott_xP said:

    If the Government considers that relaxing immigration rules is part of the solution isn't that also an admission that tightening immigration rules was part of the problem?
    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1441386473794588679

    This is the unenviable political and ideological pickle they've now got themselves into.
  • Scott_xP said:

    If the Government considers that relaxing immigration rules is part of the solution isn't that also an admission that tightening immigration rules was part of the problem?
    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1441386473794588679

    You just do not get it

    Leaving the EU allows us to control our immigration to meet our demand with higher paying wages and stopping the undercutting of the UK workforce with cheap overseas labour

    It was why the recent immigration act was passed to allow visa quotas
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Refer to my earlier post today. Would they tough out the rebalancing of the UK haulage industry or cave. They caved.
    How long until restaurant owners want the same deal, or hoteliers, or pub chains? Boris bottled it.
    The problem is in the government thinking that they know better than employers which workers are in demand.
    Agreed.

    If you're going to have free movement then a sensible way to do it was posited earlier "free movement for anyone PAYE over £50k". Or something along those lines.

    But I wouldn't restrict it to Europe, I'd have it global.

    Let the high-skilled, high-wage jobs come here not deflate our economy with minimum wage jobs.
    Why £50k?
    I didn't say it, someone else did, I was quoting them.

    While I believe in flat taxes, under our current system it kind of makes sense to be offering immigration to those on higher rate tax incomes.
    So we suffer these shortages. Doesn't seem an optimal way to run a country.
    Yes if people aren't prepared to pay market rates they don't get their goods moved. No problem with that. Those who are prepared to do so will pay more which will fund the drivers getting a decent salary.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,235
    I am glad the emergency cabinet meeting convened to resolve that was not a problem at all has managed to find a solution that is completely unnecessary to avoid any further bad headlines for BoZo and chums...
  • MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    Cicero said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Question for the PB Brexit Brain Trust

    How can a problem (shortage of HGV drivers) that was absolutely, definitely not caused by Brexit, be eased by abandoning part of Brexit?

    Take your time...

    Because a "shortage of drivers" is not a problem.

    Pay them enough and people will do the job.

    For self-entitled bosses like @RochdalePioneers no an 11% pay rise if you're struggling with a competitive sector and want to get people to return from other sectors is not a massive or shocking pay rise.
    So you do not understand the words "inelasticity of labour supply". Since you do not understand this you continue to spout abject drivel. You are making a fool of yourself.
    I understand it. I disagree with it.

    There are plenty of people who are fully qualified but have retired or quit the profession because the pay and conditions are shit. A single 10% pay rise, or a 34% pay rise (which IR35 could claim all of apparently) is pathetic in the circumstances.

    As I said repeatedly, in America 'teamsters' can be on over $100k and they cope fine doing that. Its a difficult job that's away from home a lot - pay whatever it takes to get people doing it. Don't just take the easy way out.
    again - are you 100% sure those people can come back and start work immediately - as I suspect 90%+ of them can't
    Yes, aren't licence renewal tests also massively backlogged as well? Also the absolute payrise for them may only be £5-7k take home vs delivering for Sainsbury's or Amazon which allows them to go home every evening to spend time with the family.

    There's no easy solution to this issue, truck driving is a shit job. It's like working on an oil platform. No one really wants to do it so paying high wages is the only way to get anyone interested.
    The government should legislate to say that insurance companies cannot use age or experience when setting HGV insurance rates. Then long distance trucking would become a young man's game, with drivers able to move to local routes when they want a family life
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 34,541
    sarissa said:

    Scott_xP said:

    MaxPB said:

    You do realise that the army has got tanker drivers, right?

    Yes.

    And my question was are they already driving ambulances in Scotland, or in Northern Ireland?

    How stupid are you?
    The army has 357 close support tankers, less all those overseas/on active duty. I'd be surprised if their pool of available tanker drivers would make that much difference.
    Very interesting.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 9,217
    Scott_xP said:

    Anyway please hold Tories sent out onto the radio to explain why this definitely definitely wasn’t down to Brexit in your thoughts
    https://twitter.com/gabyhinsliff/status/1441397168053628931

    Shapps must get off on the humiliation every time Johnson does to him what Mr. Slave did to Paris Hilton.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 6,369

    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    It increases the supply of labour to the detriment of the indigenous supply.

    Confirming it was caused by Brexit.

    Not the answer to the question I asked, but OK
    The ending of freedom of movement through Brexit has seen wage increases, especially for the lower paid by the ending of cheap labour and has allowed us to tailor our immigration to attract higher paid workers into our economy where we have need

    It is the success story of Brexit and I find it hard to believe that deep down you cannot just accept this

    It can be said that Junckers should have conceded to Cameron on freedom of movement and to be honest the referendum would not have happened and we would still be in the EU if a compromise had been reached
    whose wages have gone up and by what amount?
  • eekeek Posts: 18,832
    MaxPB said:

    eek said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    new splash on @ft website:

    Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption.


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    Crap decision. Boris bottled it.
    Refer to my earlier post today. Would they tough out the rebalancing of the UK haulage industry or cave. They caved.
    How long until restaurant owners want the same deal, or hoteliers, or pub chains? Boris bottled it.
    The problem is in the government thinking that they know better than employers which workers are in demand.
    Given that employers havent trained enough people or paid those they have sufficient to retain them, why on earth do we think employers know best ? Employers bet the farm on a system that moved core skills outside the UK and have now been caught out horribly when a major crisis rolled over the horizon.
    Looking forward to hearing your 5 year plan, Chairman Al.
    My 2 year plan for HGV drivers

    Now 1 permit for every 4 UK drivers you employ
    March 2022 1 permit per 5 UK drivers - to qualify that 5th driver most be newly trained
    October 2022 1 permit per 6 UK drivers - to qualify 2 drivers most be newly trained
    June 2023 1 permit per 8 drivers - to qualify 3 drivers must be newly trained
    January 2024 all work permits removed.
    That's actually a good plan.
    This stuff really isn't difficult - you just need to know the carrot and the stick.

    But I lay odds that the plan announced today will solve none of the problems when (as shown above) you can easily solve the lot.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 42,367
    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Macron and Johnson spoke today!

    Élysée readout: “Boris Johnson expressed his intention to reestablish cooperation between France & the UK, in line with our values & our shared interests (climate, IndoPacific, CT). The President responded that he was waiting for his proposals"

    Here's the Downing St readout, rather different in tone


    https://twitter.com/estwebber/status/1441392720321265676?s=20

    I am almost tempted to speculate that Boris insisted in conducting the entire conversation in his Franglais, just for the LOLs.

    “prenez un grip” and “donnez-moi un break” . Genius.
    OTOH, he's not writing for the DT in Miles Kington mode. He's supposed to be a responsible first minister of state running the country.
    But he is so much better at making us laugh. His Kermit joke in the United Nations was a classic.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Visa relaxation to avert growing HGV crisis now a highly likely outcome from this afternoon's meeting of cabinet ministers. am told

    All as part of a wider package of measures

    First reported by the FT


    https://www.ft.com/content/8335166f-9019-471b-9cbf-d7554c3b40b2

    The central tenet of Brexit abandoned at the first whiff of gunsmoke.

    The BoZo fanbois must be so proud...

    You are either in denial or just not wanting to understand this success for Brexit

    Maybe one day you will see it, but I will not hold my breath
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,231

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    Remainers dont like the idea of the oi polloi getting more money
    But Tories don't. It's the definition of being a Tory through the centuries. Which means something has to give at some point.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 1,283

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 19,771
    edited September 2021

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    Remainers dont like the idea of the oi polloi getting more money
    I think it's fantastic. I'd love to see an expansion of Trade Unionism for similar reasons.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,235

    Leaving the EU allows us to control our immigration to meet our demand with higher paying wages and stopping the undercutting of the UK workforce with cheap overseas labour

    BoZo just agreed we need "the undercutting of the UK workforce with cheap overseas labour" to stop people running out of food.

    Huzzah!
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 6,412
    edited September 2021

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    Remainers dont like the idea of the oi polloi getting more money
    Not like the democrat-revolutionary, Che Guevara-like donors of the Brexit campaign, ofcourse, such as James Dyson and Sir Jim Ratcliffe ;.)
  • Scott_xP said:

    Question for the PB Brexit Brain Trust

    How can a problem (shortage of HGV drivers) that was absolutely, definitely not caused by Brexit, be eased by abandoning part of Brexit?

    Take your time...

    Because a "shortage of drivers" is not a problem.
    Oh yes it is!
    Oh no it isn't!

    Why haven't you tried a major pay rise if there's such a serious shortage? Did you really expect a piddly 11% pay rise to bring people back into the sector?
    I thought the market paid what it needed to pay. No serious issues in April so pay inflation. Then its gets competitive so repeatedly add double digit increments on top and its still competitive. Perhaps they should just stay in this pay war until pay is +100% or maybe +200% higher.

    You keep saying "it will bring in new drivers". Except it hasn't. And no matter how many times you quote rhetoric it still doesn't make it true.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Anyway please hold Tories sent out onto the radio to explain why this definitely definitely wasn’t down to Brexit in your thoughts
    https://twitter.com/gabyhinsliff/status/1441397168053628931

    Strange how you can't seem to understand the concept it was down to Brexit and it is a good thing.
    Denial and disbelief
  • Scott_xP said:

    Question for the PB Brexit Brain Trust

    How can a problem (shortage of HGV drivers) that was absolutely, definitely not caused by Brexit, be eased by abandoning part of Brexit?

    Take your time...

    Because a "shortage of drivers" is not a problem.
    Oh yes it is!
    Oh no it isn't!

    Why haven't you tried a major pay rise if there's such a serious shortage? Did you really expect a piddly 11% pay rise to bring people back into the sector?
    Something had to give way in the end. It turned out to be artificial labour suppression. You simply misread where the market forces were putting most pressure.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,235
    Handing back control, chapter 79 https://on.ft.com/3i0Vssc
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,645

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    Remainers dont like the idea of the oi polloi getting more money
    Not like the democrat-revolutionary donors of the Brexit campaign, ofcourse, such as James Dyson and Sir Jim Ratcliffe ;.)
    rich men on both sides thats the irony, somehow remainy billionaires are meant to be more virtuous
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,235

    Denial and disbelief

    A rare moment of self awareness from the big man?
  • nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
    So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,231
    DavidL said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    Macron and Johnson spoke today!

    Élysée readout: “Boris Johnson expressed his intention to reestablish cooperation between France & the UK, in line with our values & our shared interests (climate, IndoPacific, CT). The President responded that he was waiting for his proposals"

    Here's the Downing St readout, rather different in tone


    https://twitter.com/estwebber/status/1441392720321265676?s=20

    I am almost tempted to speculate that Boris insisted in conducting the entire conversation in his Franglais, just for the LOLs.

    “prenez un grip” and “donnez-moi un break” . Genius.
    OTOH, he's not writing for the DT in Miles Kington mode. He's supposed to be a responsible first minister of state running the country.
    But he is so much better at making us laugh. His Kermit joke in the United Nations was a classic.
    Oh no, he didn't?! when I read a comment on PB about the Kermit joke (not, I really hope, the one about him and Miss P. that used to be in rag mags in my student years) I thought the poster was just being ironic - I did not believe that anyone remotely responsible would do such a thing at the UN (unless it was, of course, a specialist speecn on e.g. the arts and movies).
  • Scott_xP said:

    If the Government considers that relaxing immigration rules is part of the solution isn't that also an admission that tightening immigration rules was part of the problem?
    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1441386473794588679

    You just do not get it

    Leaving the EU allows us to control our immigration to meet our demand with higher paying wages and stopping the undercutting of the UK workforce with cheap overseas labour

    It was why the recent immigration act was passed to allow visa quotas
    We've lost the reciprocality of the single market though. We will be relaxing our rules to let people in, but who will be relaxing their rules to let us in? And if the government relaxes the rules every time they get lobbied/blackmailed by big business then who exactly has taken back control here? This seems to be all about the needs of business, not the rights of citizens.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 51,505
    edited September 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    nico679 said:

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Never give up! Never surrender!!!
    Well would you believe it

    You have finally described your 24/7 anti Brexit tweeting

    Well done
  • Scott_xP said:

    Question for the PB Brexit Brain Trust

    How can a problem (shortage of HGV drivers) that was absolutely, definitely not caused by Brexit, be eased by abandoning part of Brexit?

    Take your time...

    Because a "shortage of drivers" is not a problem.
    Oh yes it is!
    Oh no it isn't!

    Why haven't you tried a major pay rise if there's such a serious shortage? Did you really expect a piddly 11% pay rise to bring people back into the sector?
    I thought the market paid what it needed to pay. No serious issues in April so pay inflation. Then its gets competitive so repeatedly add double digit increments on top and its still competitive. Perhaps they should just stay in this pay war until pay is +100% or maybe +200% higher.

    You keep saying "it will bring in new drivers". Except it hasn't. And no matter how many times you quote rhetoric it still doesn't make it true.
    If it hasn't you haven't increased pay by enough.

    Absolutely continueuntil it is +100% or +200% or whatever it takes to get to equilibrium.
  • eekeek Posts: 18,832

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
    So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
    The problem with your argument is that it's not the freeloaders who are falling out.

    Its the greater hassle fuel and coolchain hauliers who have immediate problems because the extra money they pay is now not worth the extra hassle.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Handing back control, chapter 79 https://on.ft.com/3i0Vssc

    Who says this will just be for EU cits?
  • Scott_xP said:

    If the Government considers that relaxing immigration rules is part of the solution isn't that also an admission that tightening immigration rules was part of the problem?
    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1441386473794588679

    You just do not get it

    Leaving the EU allows us to control our immigration to meet our demand with higher paying wages and stopping the undercutting of the UK workforce with cheap overseas labour

    It was why the recent immigration act was passed to allow visa quotas
    At least it does now that they have woken up to "we have a need we cannot fill". Until 10 minutes ago it was "we are choosing to control migration by not letting people in even though we need them".

    As others have pointed out, we have needs in other areas as well. We have a choice of rolling shortages, acute labour shortages in key industries, a fuel crisis all on top of winter UC cuts and sky high energy bills. Or allowing targeted migration.

    The "ride it out" option may be best long term. A wholesale remap of the economy. But it will be painful, and the "I would rather eat grass" brigade have decided they don't want to eat grass for Christmas Dinner.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,645

    Scott_xP said:

    Question for the PB Brexit Brain Trust

    How can a problem (shortage of HGV drivers) that was absolutely, definitely not caused by Brexit, be eased by abandoning part of Brexit?

    Take your time...

    Because a "shortage of drivers" is not a problem.
    Oh yes it is!
    Oh no it isn't!

    Why haven't you tried a major pay rise if there's such a serious shortage? Did you really expect a piddly 11% pay rise to bring people back into the sector?
    I thought the market paid what it needed to pay. No serious issues in April so pay inflation. Then its gets competitive so repeatedly add double digit increments on top and its still competitive. Perhaps they should just stay in this pay war until pay is +100% or maybe +200% higher.

    You keep saying "it will bring in new drivers". Except it hasn't. And no matter how many times you quote rhetoric it still doesn't make it true.
    actually it will and it will also force productivity and innovation which will re address the cost issues.

    The bigger issue is when all this was known for some considerable time why did the current batch of executives do nothing about it ?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,231

    Scott_xP said:

    Handing back control, chapter 79 https://on.ft.com/3i0Vssc

    Who says this will just be for EU cits?
    OTOH I presume we're still on similar standards to the EU, so verifying their skills will be a lot easier than, say, truckies from Tristan da Cunha?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 26,827
    edited September 2021
    Looking at that list...

    Publicans and managers of licensed premises Landlady (public house)
    Licensee
    Manager (wine bar)
    Publican £20,700(£10.21 per hour)

    So in theory I could get a visa for someone to work in a pub at £10.22 an hour.

    EDIT: and carpet fitters for £10.76 an hour.....
  • Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    It increases the supply of labour to the detriment of the indigenous supply.

    Confirming it was caused by Brexit.

    Not the answer to the question I asked, but OK
    The ending of freedom of movement through Brexit has seen wage increases, especially for the lower paid by the ending of cheap labour and has allowed us to tailor our immigration to attract higher paid workers into our economy where we have need

    It is the success story of Brexit and I find it hard to believe that deep down you cannot just accept this

    It can be said that Junckers should have conceded to Cameron on freedom of movement and to be honest the referendum would not have happened and we would still be in the EU if a compromise had been reached

    There was absolutely nothing to stop anyone being paid more before we left the EU, of course. It's just that we decided to gut the trade union movement and remove just about every piece of leverage workers had to negotiate themselves better pay and conditions. It would be nice to think at least a few people now accept that was a mistake. But I doubt it. Next time we see any strikes that are about getting more pay for the low paid, the strikers will be routinely condemned, just as they always are.

    To be honest with the wage increases now happening post Brexit the low paid should be seeing a considerable increase as well as those higher up the scale
  • "Quasi-ineffective...."

    Impressive data out of Malaysia. 14.5M participants. RECoVAM study shows full vaccination reduces the risk of infection by 88% and symptomatic disease by 86%.

    AstraZeneca
    •Against ICU Admission: 96%
    •Against Death: 96%

    Pfizer
    •Against ICU Admission: 92%
    •Against Death: 93%


    https://twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/1441398550349303809?s=20

    There is an age-mix effect in there too, older>Pfizer, younger>AZ
  • nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    Remainers dont like the idea of the oi polloi getting more money
    Please, it's either oi poloi or the poloi, not the oi poloi. Standards at PB are really slipping.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,235
    Carnyx said:

    Oh no, he didn't?! when I read a comment on PB about the Kermit joke (not, I really hope, the one about him and Miss P. that used to be in rag mags in my student years) I thought the poster was just being ironic - I did not believe that anyone remotely responsible would do such a thing at the UN (unless it was, of course, a specialist speecn on e.g. the arts and movies).

    The Guinness Book of Records currently lists the anechoic chamber at Orfield Laboratories in Minneapolis as being the quietest place in the world, with a noise reading of minus 9.4 decibels. Beaten last night by the UN's reaction to Boris Johnson's Kermit joke.
    https://twitter.com/simonblackwell/status/1440933010342305792
  • eek said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
    So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
    The problem with your argument is that it's not the freeloaders who are falling out.

    Its the greater hassle fuel and coolchain hauliers who have immediate problems because the extra money they pay is now not worth the extra hassle.
    In which case the fuel companies need to pay an even bigger salary. People will pay whatever it takes for fuel and the cost of fuel is almost all tax anyway so its really not inflationary that one.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 6,369

    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    It increases the supply of labour to the detriment of the indigenous supply.

    Confirming it was caused by Brexit.

    Not the answer to the question I asked, but OK
    The ending of freedom of movement through Brexit has seen wage increases, especially for the lower paid by the ending of cheap labour and has allowed us to tailor our immigration to attract higher paid workers into our economy where we have need

    It is the success story of Brexit and I find it hard to believe that deep down you cannot just accept this

    It can be said that Junckers should have conceded to Cameron on freedom of movement and to be honest the referendum would not have happened and we would still be in the EU if a compromise had been reached

    There was absolutely nothing to stop anyone being paid more before we left the EU, of course. It's just that we decided to gut the trade union movement and remove just about every piece of leverage workers had to negotiate themselves better pay and conditions. It would be nice to think at least a few people now accept that was a mistake. But I doubt it. Next time we see any strikes that are about getting more pay for the low paid, the strikers will be routinely condemned, just as they always are.

    To be honest with the wage increases now happening post Brexit the low paid should be seeing a considerable increase as well as those higher up the scale
    What wage increases? Data, please.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 42,367
    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Anyway please hold Tories sent out onto the radio to explain why this definitely definitely wasn’t down to Brexit in your thoughts
    https://twitter.com/gabyhinsliff/status/1441397168053628931

    Shapps must get off on the humiliation every time Johnson does to him what Mr. Slave did to Paris Hilton.
    He can always change his name if things get too difficult.
  • eekeek Posts: 18,832
    edited September 2021

    Scott_xP said:

    Question for the PB Brexit Brain Trust

    How can a problem (shortage of HGV drivers) that was absolutely, definitely not caused by Brexit, be eased by abandoning part of Brexit?

    Take your time...

    Because a "shortage of drivers" is not a problem.
    Oh yes it is!
    Oh no it isn't!

    Why haven't you tried a major pay rise if there's such a serious shortage? Did you really expect a piddly 11% pay rise to bring people back into the sector?
    I thought the market paid what it needed to pay. No serious issues in April so pay inflation. Then its gets competitive so repeatedly add double digit increments on top and its still competitive. Perhaps they should just stay in this pay war until pay is +100% or maybe +200% higher.

    You keep saying "it will bring in new drivers". Except it hasn't. And no matter how many times you quote rhetoric it still doesn't make it true.
    actually it will and it will also force productivity and innovation which will re address the cost issues.

    The bigger issue is when all this was known for some considerable time why did the current batch of executives do nothing about it ?
    because the only fix was to pay for training new drivers and that eats into their profits.

    Once again, go back and look at my plan to fix the issue, where work permits today (carrot) are attached to training new drivers (the stick).
  • Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Handing back control, chapter 79 https://on.ft.com/3i0Vssc

    Who says this will just be for EU cits?
    OTOH I presume we're still on similar standards to the EU, so verifying their skills will be a lot easier than, say, truckies from Tristan da Cunha?
    Assuming they exist, they are probably on UK type rules
  • eek said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
    So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
    The problem with your argument is that it's not the freeloaders who are falling out.

    Its the greater hassle fuel and coolchain hauliers who have immediate problems because the extra money they pay is now not worth the extra hassle.
    In which case the fuel companies need to pay an even bigger salary. People will pay whatever it takes for fuel and the cost of fuel is almost all tax anyway so its really not inflationary that one.
    ...fol de rol
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 7,493

    Scott_xP said:

    A turkey farmer on LBC right now

    His industry has been crippled by lack of EU workers

    So he, like others, is having to reduce turkey supply

    Which means there will be a UK shortage of turkeys

    Which means…

    Supermarkets will fill the shortage by buying…

    TURKEYS FROM THE EU


    https://twitter.com/MarinaPurkiss/status/1441356626720555014

    And yet there are still unemployed people in the UK. Go figure.
    Who generally live in urban areas and not next to a turkey farm.
    True, but I believe people who can work for a living, should. Near me there are loads of jobs going, including my favourite pub not being open as it needs staff. No one who can work should not be doing so right now.
    As always its a balancing act. Many of the people needing work have kids and the work (like your pub) are shifts. Iain Duncan Smith made similar comments back in the day up in Merthyr Tydfil - loads of jobs in Cardiff. Great! But how does that work if you're in the valleys and you have kids and theres no childcare or public transport to cover shifts.

    And farms? Out in the sticks not where the unemployed are. How do we get people from the towns out into the sticks and back every day?
    Yep - I totally accept this, and my very short post was a vast oversimplification. I'm lucky enough to have never been unemployed, and optimistically think I would do almost any job to keep some money coming in. I probably won't have to, unless the University decides to shut my department down (not on the cards currently) or something goes very wrong.
    Of course its not as easy as I implied, but I believe working for your money is better than state hand-outs, and wherever possible, thats what you should do.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,231

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    Remainers dont like the idea of the oi polloi getting more money
    Please, it's either oi poloi or the poloi, not the oi poloi. Standards at PB are really slipping.
    Rough breathing at the start, so it's hoi. And it needs to be written properly, with the diacritical marks: ὁἱ πολλοί
  • Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    It increases the supply of labour to the detriment of the indigenous supply.

    Confirming it was caused by Brexit.

    Not the answer to the question I asked, but OK
    The ending of freedom of movement through Brexit has seen wage increases, especially for the lower paid by the ending of cheap labour and has allowed us to tailor our immigration to attract higher paid workers into our economy where we have need

    It is the success story of Brexit and I find it hard to believe that deep down you cannot just accept this

    It can be said that Junckers should have conceded to Cameron on freedom of movement and to be honest the referendum would not have happened and we would still be in the EU if a compromise had been reached

    There was absolutely nothing to stop anyone being paid more before we left the EU, of course. It's just that we decided to gut the trade union movement and remove just about every piece of leverage workers had to negotiate themselves better pay and conditions. It would be nice to think at least a few people now accept that was a mistake. But I doubt it. Next time we see any strikes that are about getting more pay for the low paid, the strikers will be routinely condemned, just as they always are.

    To be honest with the wage increases now happening post Brexit the low paid should be seeing a considerable increase as well as those higher up the scale

    Tell that to those working in the public sector and in nursing homes!

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,235
    Woah, warning from Rob Holyman, boss of Youngs transport company, on what Christmas looks like: "It's going to be essentials or presents, but probably not both". Good @SkyNews interview.
    https://twitter.com/Torcuil/status/1441399896683290624
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,645

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    Remainers dont like the idea of the oi polloi getting more money
    Please, it's either oi poloi or the poloi, not the oi poloi. Standards at PB are really slipping.
    some of us just have a broader vocabulary

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hoi polloi
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 51,505
    edited September 2021

    Scott_xP said:

    Handing back control, chapter 79 https://on.ft.com/3i0Vssc

    Who says this will just be for EU cits?
    As I understand it our new visa quota is available to citizens across the world
  • Looking at that list...

    Publicans and managers of licensed premises Landlady (public house)
    Licensee
    Manager (wine bar)
    Publican £20,700(£10.21 per hour)

    So in theory I could get a visa for someone to work in a pub at £10.22 an hour.

    EDIT: and carpet fitters for £10.76 an hour.....
    Adding truckers to that list, at an appropriate rate, seems to be no more than correcting an oversight.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,231

    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Handing back control, chapter 79 https://on.ft.com/3i0Vssc

    Who says this will just be for EU cits?
    OTOH I presume we're still on similar standards to the EU, so verifying their skills will be a lot easier than, say, truckies from Tristan da Cunha?
    Assuming they exist, they are probably on UK type rules
    Hmm, so they might be. But not those from, say, Martinique.
  • eek said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
    So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
    The problem with your argument is that it's not the freeloaders who are falling out.

    Its the greater hassle fuel and coolchain hauliers who have immediate problems because the extra money they pay is now not worth the extra hassle.
    The biggie was when the pay fiesta hit the tanker drivers. I assume that Hoyer et al have responded with their own pay rises so they will recruit drivers back which will fill the gaps. Until the next round of poaching when we go back to shortages again and again.

    Thing is, if you are an ADR driver the country really needs you driving fuel and toxic chemicals, not sofas. "Just pay more" is fine and they will and are. But as you lose and then poach back drivers you have gaps and that means fuel shortages.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Woah, warning from Rob Holyman, boss of Youngs transport company, on what Christmas looks like: "It's going to be essentials or presents, but probably not both". Good @SkyNews interview.
    https://twitter.com/Torcuil/status/1441399896683290624

    Oh please.

    You can get any present you want from Amazon delivered next day delivery already. I've already got half my Christmas presents chosen and delivered and in the cupboard for this year. What a joke.
  • eekeek Posts: 18,832

    eek said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
    So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
    The problem with your argument is that it's not the freeloaders who are falling out.

    Its the greater hassle fuel and coolchain hauliers who have immediate problems because the extra money they pay is now not worth the extra hassle.
    The biggie was when the pay fiesta hit the tanker drivers. I assume that Hoyer et al have responded with their own pay rises so they will recruit drivers back which will fill the gaps. Until the next round of poaching when we go back to shortages again and again.

    Thing is, if you are an ADR driver the country really needs you driving fuel and toxic chemicals, not sofas. "Just pay more" is fine and they will and are. But as you lose and then poach back drivers you have gaps and that means fuel shortages.
    I suspect (and know) you also just lose some drivers, the extra hassle may not be worth the extra £1 now you earn enough.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 26,827

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    Remainers dont like the idea of the oi polloi getting more money
    Please, it's either oi poloi or the poloi, not the oi poloi. Standards at PB are really slipping.
    some of us just have a broader vocabulary

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hoi polloi
    Should really be Capite censi

    poloi maps more on to the Plebians - who were more like the top of the working class and above.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,645
    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Question for the PB Brexit Brain Trust

    How can a problem (shortage of HGV drivers) that was absolutely, definitely not caused by Brexit, be eased by abandoning part of Brexit?

    Take your time...

    Because a "shortage of drivers" is not a problem.
    Oh yes it is!
    Oh no it isn't!

    Why haven't you tried a major pay rise if there's such a serious shortage? Did you really expect a piddly 11% pay rise to bring people back into the sector?
    I thought the market paid what it needed to pay. No serious issues in April so pay inflation. Then its gets competitive so repeatedly add double digit increments on top and its still competitive. Perhaps they should just stay in this pay war until pay is +100% or maybe +200% higher.

    You keep saying "it will bring in new drivers". Except it hasn't. And no matter how many times you quote rhetoric it still doesn't make it true.
    actually it will and it will also force productivity and innovation which will re address the cost issues.

    The bigger issue is when all this was known for some considerable time why did the current batch of executives do nothing about it ?
    because the only fix was to pay for training new drivers and that eats into their profits.

    Once again, go back and look at my plan to fix the issue, where work permits today (carrot) are attached to training new drivers (the stick).
    thats simply a way of saying companies decided to avoid cost now and take the risk that the system would hold

    now that it hasnt the cost equation has changed totally and it will cost companies more money to find a new equilibrium
  • Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    DavidL said:

    It increases the supply of labour to the detriment of the indigenous supply.

    Confirming it was caused by Brexit.

    Not the answer to the question I asked, but OK
    The ending of freedom of movement through Brexit has seen wage increases, especially for the lower paid by the ending of cheap labour and has allowed us to tailor our immigration to attract higher paid workers into our economy where we have need

    It is the success story of Brexit and I find it hard to believe that deep down you cannot just accept this

    It can be said that Junckers should have conceded to Cameron on freedom of movement and to be honest the referendum would not have happened and we would still be in the EU if a compromise had been reached

    There was absolutely nothing to stop anyone being paid more before we left the EU, of course. It's just that we decided to gut the trade union movement and remove just about every piece of leverage workers had to negotiate themselves better pay and conditions. It would be nice to think at least a few people now accept that was a mistake. But I doubt it. Next time we see any strikes that are about getting more pay for the low paid, the strikers will be routinely condemned, just as they always are.

    To be honest with the wage increases now happening post Brexit the low paid should be seeing a considerable increase as well as those higher up the scale
    What wage increases? Data, please.
    Could be smoke and mirrors. The average went up because the low paid were laid off during Covid.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/23/the-puzzle-of-rising-uk-wages-reveals-an-unprecedented-and-tragic-truth
  • eek said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
    So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
    The problem with your argument is that it's not the freeloaders who are falling out.

    Its the greater hassle fuel and coolchain hauliers who have immediate problems because the extra money they pay is now not worth the extra hassle.
    The biggie was when the pay fiesta hit the tanker drivers. I assume that Hoyer et al have responded with their own pay rises so they will recruit drivers back which will fill the gaps. Until the next round of poaching when we go back to shortages again and again.

    Thing is, if you are an ADR driver the country really needs you driving fuel and toxic chemicals, not sofas. "Just pay more" is fine and they will and are. But as you lose and then poach back drivers you have gaps and that means fuel shortages.
    Then maybe don't lose them. Maybe pay them more in the first place and when they hand in their notice, maybe stop and think "oh I'll need to pay even more than this".

    If you keep having pathetically small pay rises under the circumstances then yes that will be a problem. Its a problem you need to fix though not have the state fix it for you.
  • Carnyx said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    Remainers dont like the idea of the oi polloi getting more money
    Please, it's either oi poloi or the poloi, not the oi poloi. Standards at PB are really slipping.
    Rough breathing at the start, so it's hoi. And it needs to be written properly, with the diacritical marks: ὁἱ πολλοί
    Well, obviously. I didn't want to be too much of a Remoaner elitist.
  • Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Handing back control, chapter 79 https://on.ft.com/3i0Vssc

    Who says this will just be for EU cits?
    OTOH I presume we're still on similar standards to the EU, so verifying their skills will be a lot easier than, say, truckies from Tristan da Cunha?
    Assuming they exist, they are probably on UK type rules
    Hmm, so they might be. But not those from, say, Martinique.
    They are in the EU.

    But I have had to cross the road in India and the HGV drivers take no prisoners...
  • So, we are letting EU workers back into the country because we need them, while ensuring that UK citizens still have no freedom of movement benefits; and we are letting EU goods into the country unchecked, while UK exports are subject to third country customs checks before they can enter the single market. It's almost as if the government is entirely clueless.

    As far as I understand it the visa quotas are available to workers worldwide
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,115

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    Remainers dont like the idea of the oi polloi getting more money
    Please, it's either oi poloi or the poloi, not the oi poloi. Standards at PB are really slipping.
    There's deffnitly two ls in polloi and a rough breathing on hoi...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,231

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Handing back control, chapter 79 https://on.ft.com/3i0Vssc

    Who says this will just be for EU cits?
    OTOH I presume we're still on similar standards to the EU, so verifying their skills will be a lot easier than, say, truckies from Tristan da Cunha?
    Assuming they exist, they are probably on UK type rules
    Hmm, so they might be. But not those from, say, Martinique.
    They are in the EU.

    But I have had to cross the road in India and the HGV drivers take no prisoners...
    Duh, so Martinique is - should have said the Seychelles or something.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,235

    So, we are letting EU workers back into the country because we need them, while ensuring that UK citizens still have no freedom of movement benefits; and we are letting EU goods into the country unchecked, while UK exports are subject to third country customs checks before they can enter the single market. It's almost as if the government is entirely clueless.

    And still the fanbois cheer...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 26,827

    Looking at that list...

    Publicans and managers of licensed premises Landlady (public house)
    Licensee
    Manager (wine bar)
    Publican £20,700(£10.21 per hour)

    So in theory I could get a visa for someone to work in a pub at £10.22 an hour.

    EDIT: and carpet fitters for £10.76 an hour.....
    Adding truckers to that list, at an appropriate rate, seems to be no more than correcting an oversight.
    Note that it is mostly management.

    1161 Managers and directors in transport and distribution Fleet manager
    Transport manager £30,900(£15.24 per hour)

    "I have a job for a Transport Manger. Because it is hands on, it needs an HGV license, current for the UK."
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 19,771
    Fuel queues reported in Kent and Harlow.
    Why does it seem to be the Home Counties. See also supermarkets March 2020.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 19,771
    edited September 2021
    Course. If we really wanted to go back to our pre-Europe traditions. Now would be a great time for a transport strike.
    How Leavers would cheer, as the pay of the workers soared.
    After a few week''s disruption.
  • Carnyx said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    Remainers dont like the idea of the oi polloi getting more money
    Please, it's either oi poloi or the poloi, not the oi poloi. Standards at PB are really slipping.
    Rough breathing at the start, so it's hoi. And it needs to be written properly, with the diacritical marks: ὁἱ πολλοί
    Well, obviously. I didn't want to be too much of a Remoaner elitist.
    Carnyx said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    Remainers dont like the idea of the oi polloi getting more money
    Please, it's either oi poloi or the poloi, not the oi poloi. Standards at PB are really slipping.
    Rough breathing at the start, so it's hoi. And it needs to be written properly, with the diacritical marks: ὁἱ πολλοί
    Tut, tut, tut. The nominative of the definite article does not have an accent.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 26,827
    edited September 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    Remainers dont like the idea of the oi polloi getting more money
    Please, it's either oi poloi or the poloi, not the oi poloi. Standards at PB are really slipping.
    There's deffnitly two ls in polloi and a rough breathing on hoi...
    Very ruff breaving, as Ray Winstone might say....
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638


    Tory lead with YouGov up to seven points on eve of Labour conference

    CON 39 (n/c)
    LAB 32 (-3)
    LD 10 (+3)
    GREEN 9 (+2)
    REF UK 3 (n/c)

    Number of Con-Lab switchers halved since Labour lead a fortnight ago, fewer 2019 Tories don't know

    One in five Lab voters backing other parties

    In this crisis labour's polling must be of great concern to their supporters

    The question is why

    And on the fuel shortages, as has been commented on here, a few filling stations closed will not impact on the public

    It would have to be widespread across the country and causing huge queues

    The people at war with Sir Keir's Labour, the Corbynites, have gone Green. Is it too simplistic to assume they just come back? They hate him more than they do Tories
  • Also interesting that policy advisers for government is an eligible occupation, whilst the people who deliver are our food is not. Perhaps given the governments performance we actually do need to import some talent there.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    Remainers dont like the idea of the oi polloi getting more money
    Please, it's either oi poloi or the poloi, not the oi poloi. Standards at PB are really slipping.
    There's deffnitly two ls in polloi and a rough breathing on hoi...
    Sorry, I was so enraged by the use of "the" there that I allowed my own standards to slip. Unforgiveable.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,235

    As far as I understand it the visa quotas are available to workers worldwide

    How many truckers from Idaho are going to take advantage of BoZo's latest humiliating climbdown?
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 2,202
    edited September 2021
    Far be it from me to jump on any bandwagon, but I have to say that We have just done a Tesco shop and I am pleased to say that the shelves were looking quite well stocked. I didn't go for diesel though...luckily, there was an enormouse queue!! (West Wales)
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,235
    Cabinet source tells me the PM “doesn’t want headlines about Christmas being cancelled”.
    https://twitter.com/tamcohen/status/1441404316636508162
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,231

    Far be it from me to jump on any bandwagon, but I have to say that We have just done a Tesco shop and I am pleased to say that the shelves were looking quite well stocked. I didn't go for diesel though...luckily, there was an enormouse queue!! (West Wales)

    Were they getting ratty about having to wait?
  • eek said:

    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    So the problem which apparently according to Leavers wasn’t made worse by Brexit will be alleviated by removing some of the restrictions placed on EU drivers by Brexit .

    Leavers need to stop embarrassing themselves . They seem to be running down a rabbit hole and flailing as to how they can continue to polish the Brexit turd!

    Remainers need to stop embarrassing themselves. Leavers are saying its a good thing not a problem.
    I’m happy to see wages going up for drivers , equally the pragmatic solution until more U.K. drivers can be hired is to temporarily relax the visa rules . This seems like common sense whereas sticking to your stance re this issue seems to be hoping the problem will magically go away overnight . How can supply shortages and problems with supply chains be a good thing .
    So-called "problems" force people to pay the real market rate. Drivers get to go to whichever "predatory pay rise" (TM Rochdale) gets offered to them, the firms get to move whichever goods companies are prepared to pay enough to get moved - and the freeloaders at the bottom of the pyramid fall out.
    The problem with your argument is that it's not the freeloaders who are falling out.

    Its the greater hassle fuel and coolchain hauliers who have immediate problems because the extra money they pay is now not worth the extra hassle.
    The biggie was when the pay fiesta hit the tanker drivers. I assume that Hoyer et al have responded with their own pay rises so they will recruit drivers back which will fill the gaps. Until the next round of poaching when we go back to shortages again and again.

    Thing is, if you are an ADR driver the country really needs you driving fuel and toxic chemicals, not sofas. "Just pay more" is fine and they will and are. But as you lose and then poach back drivers you have gaps and that means fuel shortages.
    Then maybe don't lose them. Maybe pay them more in the first place and when they hand in their notice, maybe stop and think "oh I'll need to pay even more than this".

    If you keep having pathetically small pay rises under the circumstances then yes that will be a problem. Its a problem you need to fix though not have the state fix it for you.
    38% is "pathetically small"?

    How much should a pay rise be to (a) keep existing drivers and (b) cover any and all possible pay rises by competitors? I've managed a lot of salary budgets and recruited talent where you have to pay to keep them. Never managed a speculative +80% or +180% just in case the rival down the road increases their offer.
This discussion has been closed.