Was the CONHome members’ survey the driver of the re-shuffle? – politicalbetting.com
Comments
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Laid-off ship builders might remember.ydoethur said:
Nah, it will sink without trace.DecrepiterJohnL said:French elections next year btw. Whether the submarine news might be a factor...
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I think that was the 4th Afghan War. We won the first 2 Opium Wars against China, though I suspect the next one will have similar objectives, to force open China for Western business.OldKingCole said:
Thought we'd just fought that in Afghanistan. And, as we usually do in that country, lost.Foxy said:
C'mon! Get on board for the third Opium War.OldKingCole said:Morning all! Brighter this morning, but the weather seems to be cooling. As, to be fair, one would expect.
Can't understand this obsession with 'Global Britain', and getting involved with potential conflicts thousands of miles away. We can't really afford it and it's hardly environmentally friendly to be charging over to the other side of the globe.
Unless it's trying to bring back achievements of days of yore. Like me running for a bus; I'd like to think I could do it, but realism has to prevail.1 -
On Topic I agree that Truss would make an excellent PM.
I don't get the mass hate for Nadine Dorries. Is it just that she's an ardent Brexiteer so Remainers hate her? It seems that she's got sensible views on the BBC so seems an appropriate appointment for Culture. Plus I thought (may be wrong) she's worked as a Nurse through Covid as well as being a Health Minister which is pretty impressive really.5 -
I note that Opinium finally got round to publishing their detailed tables. How do they get away with consistently breaching BPC rules?
Scottish VI
SNP 50%
SCon 29%
SLab 16%
SGP 1%
SLD 1%
oth (presumably Alba) 2%
Boris Johnson net approval
Midlands -4
London -9
South -17
North -18
Wales -23
N Ireland -34
Scotland -46
UK -171 -
The passive voice has a lot to answer for.Theuniondivvie said:
Who has been saying this, just so I can judge the value of such a suggestion?Big_G_NorthWales said:
It has been said that the reason this deal has come into place is not just that France's diesel subs were not suitable for Australia's defence requirements, but also that Germany is heading towards neutrality and that the EU and Germany could not be trusted not to share nuclear secrets with Russia or China3 -
Good morning, everyone.
Mr. L, I actually caught a spot of news yesterday (unusual for me nowadays) that indicated South Korea was beefing up its military capabilities. The line taken (BBC) was that this was trying to stand on it sown two feet rather than being reliant on the USA, but I wonder if it's that or simply wanting to be stronger (ie more Korean forces *and* the USA as an ally).0 -
They’ll weather the storm.DecrepiterJohnL said:
Laid-off ship builders might remember.ydoethur said:
Nah, it will sink without trace.DecrepiterJohnL said:French elections next year btw. Whether the submarine news might be a factor...
(You’re one was crap.)0 -
It has been said that… insert bollocks here.FeersumEnjineeya said:
The passive voice has a lot to answer for.Theuniondivvie said:
Who has been saying this, just so I can judge the value of such a suggestion?Big_G_NorthWales said:
It has been said that the reason this deal has come into place is not just that France's diesel subs were not suitable for Australia's defence requirements, but also that Germany is heading towards neutrality and that the EU and Germany could not be trusted not to share nuclear secrets with Russia or China0 -
Feck, that BJ approval figure in London is a bit of an eye opener.StuartDickson said:I note that Opinium finally got round to publishing their detailed tables. How do they get away with consistently breaching BPC rules?
Scottish VI
SNP 50%
SCon 29%
SLab 16%
SGP 1%
SLD 1%
oth (presumably Alba) 2%
Boris Johnson net approval
Midlands -4
London -9
South -17
North -18
Wales -23
N Ireland -34
Scotland -46
UK -170 -
How will France respond? The first step might be to reassess the extent of its involvement in the Indo-Pacific. Observers believe Thursday’s announcement will also imperil negotiations for a free-trade agreement between Australia and the EU, a high-income market of almost 450 million people with a GDP of around $US15 trillion.
“Everyone in Paris is shell shocked,” says Benjamin Haddad, the director of the Atlantic Council’s Europe Center. Haddad predicted the announcement represented the lowest point in US-France relations since 2003, when Paris openly criticised Washington for invading Iraq. Gérard Araud, a former French ambassador to the US, put it this way: “The world is a jungle. France has just been reminded of this bitter truth by the way the US and the UK have stabbed her in the back in Australia.”
All sides are calculating that the long-term benefits of closer defence ties between Australia, the UK and US outweigh the medium-term damage inflicted on their relationship with France.
https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/emmanuel-macron-has-good-reason-to-feel-angry-and-deceived-by-australia-20210916-p58s0z.html1 -
She's a tory so that's all you need really.Philip_Thompson said:On Topic I agree that Truss would make an excellent PM.
I don't get the mass hate for Nadine Dorries.
Mad Nad also had quite a palmarès of chatting absolute shit and having a shaky grasp on reality; the tories created 180,000 jobs in Hartlepool, etc.
The sight of her face makes me want to burn myself with a fag and I don't even smoke.2 -
The Big Broon One. The gift that keeps on giving.Theuniondivvie said:Groundgord Day on R4.
Broony: I know what Scots really want, and it’s not BJ & his muscular Unionism and it’s not the Scottish nationalists.
It’s Labour isn’t it!
Don’t tell me, he also relaunched “federalism” for the ten thousand five hundred and twenty second time?1 -
I do not see it as contriving but the reality of the way defence and trade is migrating to the Trans PacificJonathan said:
Or local political pressures now force us to stretch and contrive economic and defence policy. We’re still in Europe, anchored in the cold North Atlantic and close in time zone to the EU, even if for now the UK government can’t be seen to accept that fact.Big_G_NorthWales said:
We live in an interconnected world and as such the direction of travel is much wider than just Europe and indeed the Trans Pacific partnership will dwarf the EU in trading termsOldKingCole said:Morning all! Brighter this morning, but the weather seems to be cooling. As, to be fair, one would expect.
Can't understand this obsession with 'Global Britain', and getting involved with potential conflicts thousands of miles away. We can't really afford it and it's hardly environmentally friendly to be charging over to the other side of the globe.
Unless it's trying to bring back achievements of days of yore. Like me running for a bus; I'd like to think I could do it, but realism has to prevail.
It is also true that China is a threat to the west, and this is widely recognised and this new defence agreement is the precursor to a wider alignment of cooperation with like minded western countries both in defence and trade whiich may in years to come result in a world wide trading association of countries0 -
Snobbery (intellectual and social) no doubt plays a part.Philip_Thompson said:On Topic I agree that Truss would make an excellent PM.
I don't get the mass hate for Nadine Dorries. Is it just that she's an ardent Brexiteer so Remainers hate her? It seems that she's got sensible views on the BBC so seems an appropriate appointment for Culture. Plus I thought (may be wrong) she's worked as a Nurse through Covid as well as being a Health Minister which is pretty impressive really.
Her first outing in her new role is at 09.30 in the HoC today.2 -
Furious French foreign minister Le Drian this morning on the United Kingdom United States Australia deal: a "knife in the back", "betrayal of confidence", "allies don't do this to each other". Rare to hear quite this sort of language. France (which had its own conventional submarine contract with Australia) is very angry
https://twitter.com/PedderSophie/status/1438393614418198531?s=200 -
It's how I would cut the pompous, self-important BBC down to size, yes.Nigelb said:
THAT is how you would govern ?MarqueeMark said:
It's also a great appointment to troll the BBC.Foxy said:
She is just there for the Culture War stuff, which will be a key part of GE strategy.DavidL said:
The reshuffle did get rid of the worst duffers in the Cabinet and is therefore to be welcomed but Mad Nad is a bizarre appointment, presumably for the entertainment value.CarlottaVance said:We’ll see the new Culture Secretary @NadineDorries in action in DCMS questions in the Commons at 9.30 this morning. Life comes at you fast in a reshuffle.
https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/1438374778369454081?s=20
"You think you are important? Well, meet your new contact point with Government..."
THAT is how you do humour, HIGNFY, Mock the Week, The News Quiz....2 -
Yep, ‘we must look again at the constitution’ was mumbled out with the concomitant absence of any concrete proposals.StuartDickson said:
The Big Broon One. The gift that keeps on giving.Theuniondivvie said:Groundgord Day on R4.
Broony: I know what Scots really want, and it’s not BJ & his muscular Unionism and it’s not the Scottish nationalists.
It’s Labour isn’t it!
Don’t tell me, he also relaunched “federalism” for the ten thousand five hundred and twenty second time?1 -
Scots want the SNP to govern and forget indyref2Theuniondivvie said:Groundgord Day on R4.
Broony: I know what Scots really want, and it’s not BJ & his muscular Unionism and it’s not the Scottish nationalists.
It’s Labour isn’t it!0 -
#YourADF will acquire Tomahawk Cruise Missiles for @Australian_Navy & Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missiles (Extended Range) for @AusAirForce. These new missiles will enhance our long-range strike capabilities to deter and respond to threats. #AUKUS
https://twitter.com/CDF_Aust/status/1438382148499746826?s=201 -
Gender of next Conservative leader?
Male 1/6
Female 3/10 -
Like most people, she has her good and bad sides. She's got some really wacky views but returning to nursing for a while during the pandemic was very creditable.CarlottaVance said:
Snobbery (intellectual and social) no doubt plays a part.Philip_Thompson said:On Topic I agree that Truss would make an excellent PM.
I don't get the mass hate for Nadine Dorries. Is it just that she's an ardent Brexiteer so Remainers hate her? It seems that she's got sensible views on the BBC so seems an appropriate appointment for Culture. Plus I thought (may be wrong) she's worked as a Nurse through Covid as well as being a Health Minister which is pretty impressive really.
Her first outing in her new role is at 09.30 in the HoC today.0 -
Ben Wallace on R4 playing a very straight bat "Australian decision to extend strategic capability doing it with closest allies"0
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Ironic coming from the famously self-effacing, modest and restrained Conservative party.MarqueeMark said:
It's how I would cut the pompous, self-important BBC down to size, yes.Nigelb said:
THAT is how you would govern ?MarqueeMark said:
It's also a great appointment to troll the BBC.Foxy said:
She is just there for the Culture War stuff, which will be a key part of GE strategy.DavidL said:
The reshuffle did get rid of the worst duffers in the Cabinet and is therefore to be welcomed but Mad Nad is a bizarre appointment, presumably for the entertainment value.CarlottaVance said:We’ll see the new Culture Secretary @NadineDorries in action in DCMS questions in the Commons at 9.30 this morning. Life comes at you fast in a reshuffle.
https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/1438374778369454081?s=20
"You think you are important? Well, meet your new contact point with Government..."
THAT is how you do humour, HIGNFY, Mock the Week, The News Quiz....4 -
Even he must flinch at his own ridiculousness. Just oozes insincerity.Theuniondivvie said:
Yep, ‘we must look again at the constitution’ was mumbled out with the concomitant absence of any concrete proposals.StuartDickson said:
The Big Broon One. The gift that keeps on giving.Theuniondivvie said:Groundgord Day on R4.
Broony: I know what Scots really want, and it’s not BJ & his muscular Unionism and it’s not the Scottish nationalists.
It’s Labour isn’t it!
Don’t tell me, he also relaunched “federalism” for the ten thousand five hundred and twenty second time?0 -
Please do not carry out your last sentenceDura_Ace said:
She's a tory so that's all you need really.Philip_Thompson said:On Topic I agree that Truss would make an excellent PM.
I don't get the mass hate for Nadine Dorries.
Mad Nad also had quite a palmarès of chatting absolute shit and having a shaky grasp on reality; the tories created 180,000 jobs in Hartlepool, etc.
The sight of her face makes me want to burn myself with a fag and I don't even smoke.0 -
O wad some Powr the giftie gie usJonathan said:
Ironic coming from the famously self-effacing, modest and restrained Conservative party.MarqueeMark said:
It's how I would cut the pompous, self-important BBC down to size, yes.Nigelb said:
THAT is how you would govern ?MarqueeMark said:
It's also a great appointment to troll the BBC.Foxy said:
She is just there for the Culture War stuff, which will be a key part of GE strategy.DavidL said:
The reshuffle did get rid of the worst duffers in the Cabinet and is therefore to be welcomed but Mad Nad is a bizarre appointment, presumably for the entertainment value.CarlottaVance said:We’ll see the new Culture Secretary @NadineDorries in action in DCMS questions in the Commons at 9.30 this morning. Life comes at you fast in a reshuffle.
https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/1438374778369454081?s=20
"You think you are important? Well, meet your new contact point with Government..."
THAT is how you do humour, HIGNFY, Mock the Week, The News Quiz....
To see oursels as ithers see us.
It wad frae mony a blunder free us,
An foolish notion,
What airs in dress an gait wad leae us,
An evn devotion.2 -
Truss seems set to be the Tory Corbyn. An opportunity.0
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What in Brown's three years as Prime Minister - or since then - gave you a clue that he has any sense of shame or self-awareness?StuartDickson said:
Even he must flinch at his own ridiculousness. Just oozes insincerity.Theuniondivvie said:
Yep, ‘we must look again at the constitution’ was mumbled out with the concomitant absence of any concrete proposals.StuartDickson said:
The Big Broon One. The gift that keeps on giving.Theuniondivvie said:Groundgord Day on R4.
Broony: I know what Scots really want, and it’s not BJ & his muscular Unionism and it’s not the Scottish nationalists.
It’s Labour isn’t it!
Don’t tell me, he also relaunched “federalism” for the ten thousand five hundred and twenty second time?0 -
Talking of the great man:Jonathan said:Truss seems set to be the Tory Corbyn. An opportunity.
Labour whip to be restored to Jeremy Corbyn during 2021?
11/4 (Hills)
Are you a buyer?
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Everyone needs to remember this is Joe Biden, not Trump, and also there have been years of friction between Boeing ( US) and Airbus (France and EU)CarlottaVance said:Furious French foreign minister Le Drian this morning on the United Kingdom United States Australia deal: a "knife in the back", "betrayal of confidence", "allies don't do this to each other". Rare to hear quite this sort of language. France (which had its own conventional submarine contract with Australia) is very angry
https://twitter.com/PedderSophie/status/1438393614418198531?s=20
It also must have hit the EU hard at the realisation the US has chosen the UK and are unlikely to side with the EU v the UK, its renewed military partner, in controversial issues2 -
Someone who spends thirty years on the back benches before being propelled unexpectedly to the top? I’m not sure that works here…Jonathan said:Truss seems set to be the Tory Corbyn. An opportunity.
1 -
Balanced thread:
The #AUKUS agreement is about much more than boats. Nuclear powered submarines are essential to supporting allies like Japan and defend Australia but the real gain is long term. 1/
https://twitter.com/TomTugendhat/status/1438273128245907460?s=200 -
Loved by a section of membership, focussing on delighting that core. Questionable appeal outside that.Fysics_Teacher said:
Someone who spends thirty years on the back benches before being propelled unexpectedly to the top? I’m not sure that works here…Jonathan said:Truss seems set to be the Tory Corbyn. An opportunity.
0 -
The public archive is jam-packed full of evidence to the contrary. Broon is a spectacular specimen. The amazing thing is that his reputation in the history books will be far more flattering than the Tory duds who followed.Fishing said:
What in Brown's three years as Prime Minister - or since then - gave you a clue that he has any sense of shame or self-awareness?StuartDickson said:
Even he must flinch at his own ridiculousness. Just oozes insincerity.Theuniondivvie said:
Yep, ‘we must look again at the constitution’ was mumbled out with the concomitant absence of any concrete proposals.StuartDickson said:
The Big Broon One. The gift that keeps on giving.Theuniondivvie said:Groundgord Day on R4.
Broony: I know what Scots really want, and it’s not BJ & his muscular Unionism and it’s not the Scottish nationalists.
It’s Labour isn’t it!
Don’t tell me, he also relaunched “federalism” for the ten thousand five hundred and twenty second time?0 -
I use that Robbie poem quite often and the source of the bards wisdomStuartDickson said:
O wad some Powr the giftie gie usJonathan said:
Ironic coming from the famously self-effacing, modest and restrained Conservative party.MarqueeMark said:
It's how I would cut the pompous, self-important BBC down to size, yes.Nigelb said:
THAT is how you would govern ?MarqueeMark said:
It's also a great appointment to troll the BBC.Foxy said:
She is just there for the Culture War stuff, which will be a key part of GE strategy.DavidL said:
The reshuffle did get rid of the worst duffers in the Cabinet and is therefore to be welcomed but Mad Nad is a bizarre appointment, presumably for the entertainment value.CarlottaVance said:We’ll see the new Culture Secretary @NadineDorries in action in DCMS questions in the Commons at 9.30 this morning. Life comes at you fast in a reshuffle.
https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/1438374778369454081?s=20
"You think you are important? Well, meet your new contact point with Government..."
THAT is how you do humour, HIGNFY, Mock the Week, The News Quiz....
To see oursels as ithers see us.
It wad frae mony a blunder free us,
An foolish notion,
What airs in dress an gait wad leae us,
An evn devotion.1 -
The Triple Entente is already bearing collaborative fruit. The ADF are reannouncing things that have already happened to get a headline just like the MoD.CarlottaVance said:#YourADF will acquire Tomahawk Cruise Missiles for @Australian_Navy & Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missiles (Extended Range) for @AusAirForce. These new missiles will enhance our long-range strike capabilities to deter and respond to threats. #AUKUS
https://twitter.com/CDF_Aust/status/1438382148499746826?s=206 -
I don't hate her. Indeed I think her more capable than most of the posh boys that don't know the price of milk in the government.Philip_Thompson said:On Topic I agree that Truss would make an excellent PM.
I don't get the mass hate for Nadine Dorries. Is it just that she's an ardent Brexiteer so Remainers hate her? It seems that she's got sensible views on the BBC so seems an appropriate appointment for Culture. Plus I thought (may be wrong) she's worked as a Nurse through Covid as well as being a Health Minister which is pretty impressive really.
I wouldn't reckon a culture war on the BBC would be a good tactic electorally though. The newer Con voters in the Red Wall are not keen to smash British institutions like Auntie.2 -
Shuffling a bunch of no hopers around will make no difference, combined brain cell count would still be in single figures.JosiasJessop said:First.
The reshuffle actually feels like a little of a damp squib to me.
I want to see ideas from the government. Last night's news was a decent start; let's have some more.0 -
Appealing to the core vote is an extremely common error in global politics. I love it when I see opponents doing it. It is one of the reasons PB is such a reassuring platform.Jonathan said:
Loved by a section of membership, focussing on delighting that core. Questionable appeal outside that.Fysics_Teacher said:
Someone who spends thirty years on the back benches before being propelled unexpectedly to the top? I’m not sure that works here…Jonathan said:Truss seems set to be the Tory Corbyn. An opportunity.
0 -
They couldn't, our nuclear sub technology is derived from the US tech sharing agreement. It means we can't sell it on. This agreement and, notably, the UK being on the inside means we can now.JosiasJessop said:
When we got rid of the Upholder (*) class (as DuraAce mentions above), we went all-nuclear on our boats. Most countries cannot be bothered with nukes, and want diesel-electric instead. We couldn't offer them that. The French could not either; but offered to redesign their latest nuke attack sub to be diesel powered.rcs1000 said:
I know we build our own submarines, but have we made any sales to other countries? France's defence industry exists because countries want Western technology, but don't want to be dependent on the US.CarlottaVance said:Interesting that the French fulmination over the subs deal makes no mention of the UK. Is that 1) a snub because they don’t want to credit us with anything on the global stage or 2) a recognition that in Europe the UK is the only other serious military power in town and that’s a bridge not worth burning?
The Spanish S-80 class is probably not in the running due to the (ahem) interesting problems they've had with it. Like making it the first submarine that could sink but not surface again. So they lengthened it to add buoyancy, which added a whole host of other issues ...
It's interesting that Oz never really considered the UK for their Collins replacements because of their nuke power - despite their requirements being perfect for nuclear power, given the area they have to patrol.
(*) For train fans, these use the Paxman Valenta engines that originally powered the HST.0 -
UK scores one out of three on that categorisation.rcs1000 said:
The problem is that some countries have money (Germany), while others have capability (France), and everyone wants to be treated like they're really important.Casino_Royale said:Here's an idea: the EU just reframes itself as as trading block/regulatory union and gives up on "strategic autonomy" with the nations that care and do defence, France, Sweden and maybe Spain, integrating themselves into a pan-Western defence network worldwide.
There. Solved it.2 -
Corbyn was much more than that…Jonathan said:
Loved by a section of membership, focussing on delighting that core. Questionable appeal outside that.Fysics_Teacher said:
Someone who spends thirty years on the back benches before being propelled unexpectedly to the top? I’m not sure that works here…Jonathan said:Truss seems set to be the Tory Corbyn. An opportunity.
0 -
The South Koreas both need the US and at the same time, as a former colony (of Japan), find it irksome to be beholden to a foreign power. They are very proud and quite nationalistic. So they are always seeking to increase their share of the defence of homeland.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
Mr. L, I actually caught a spot of news yesterday (unusual for me nowadays) that indicated South Korea was beefing up its military capabilities. The line taken (BBC) was that this was trying to stand on it sown two feet rather than being reliant on the USA, but I wonder if it's that or simply wanting to be stronger (ie more Korean forces *and* the USA as an ally).1 -
I think those are reasonable odds.StuartDickson said:
Talking of the great man:Jonathan said:Truss seems set to be the Tory Corbyn. An opportunity.
Labour whip to be restored to Jeremy Corbyn during 2021?
11/4 (Hills)
Are you a buyer?1 -
PARIS, Sept 16 (Reuters) - France will look to ensure any financial hit to Naval Group from a cancelled Australia submarine deal is limited, French Armed Forces Florence Parly said on Thursday.
Parly did not rule out France seeking compensation from Australia.
"We are studying all avenues," Parly told French radio RFI when asked whether France might seek compensation.
https://www.reuters.com/business/france-help-limit-financial-hit-naval-group-cancelled-australia-deal-2021-09-16/0 -
Mr. Jonathan, Truss is not, unless you have footage of her marching alongside Hitler banners and swastika flags, or laying wreaths at monuments to Adolf Eichmann and the like.0
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And yet here we are, in the room where France isn't.OnlyLivingBoy said:
UK scores one out of three on that categorisation.rcs1000 said:
The problem is that some countries have money (Germany), while others have capability (France), and everyone wants to be treated like they're really important.Casino_Royale said:Here's an idea: the EU just reframes itself as as trading block/regulatory union and gives up on "strategic autonomy" with the nations that care and do defence, France, Sweden and maybe Spain, integrating themselves into a pan-Western defence network worldwide.
There. Solved it.7 -
Needs no translation:
"C'est vraiment un coup dans le dos", a regretté le chef de la diplomatie française Jean-Yves Le Drian sur France Info. "Cette décision unlilatérale, brutale, imprévisible ressemble beaucoup à ce que faisait M. Trump" #AFP
https://twitter.com/afpfr/status/1438403528934842370?s=202 -
Liz Truss did PPE at Oxford. She's no horny-handed son of toil.Foxy said:
I don't hate her. Indeed I think her more capable than most of the posh boys that don't know the price of milk in the government.Philip_Thompson said:On Topic I agree that Truss would make an excellent PM.
I don't get the mass hate for Nadine Dorries. Is it just that she's an ardent Brexiteer so Remainers hate her? It seems that she's got sensible views on the BBC so seems an appropriate appointment for Culture. Plus I thought (may be wrong) she's worked as a Nurse through Covid as well as being a Health Minister which is pretty impressive really.
I wouldn't reckon a culture war on the BBC would be a good tactic electorally though. The newer Con voters in the Red Wall are not keen to smash British institutions like Auntie.
https://www.gov.uk/government/people/elizabeth-truss
0 -
UK at best will get to supply the sanitary wareJosiasJessop said:
I could see it splitting three ways:Dura_Ace said:
It's politically impossible to 'build' them anywhere but ASC at Osborne in South Australia. However that yard has zero autochthonous experience with nuclear propulsion so the centre sections will probably be built at GDEB (who also had to be brought in to sort out the Astute program) in Groton, CT and then shipped to Australia for integration.DecrepiterJohnL said:
It could be a snub but mainly this is an Australian-American deal with Britain as bit-part players. Australia was due to buy French submarines. Now it will buy American. That is what France is complaining about, not the sliver of the deal that benefits this country.CarlottaVance said:Interesting that the French fulmination over the subs deal makes no mention of the UK. Is that 1) a snub because they don’t want to credit us with anything on the global stage or 2) a recognition that in Europe the UK is the only other serious military power in town and that’s a bridge not worth burning?
Really there is no contract signed but an undertaking to start a two year feasibility study, negotatiating work and technology transfers. The boats will be built in Australian shipyards, for instance, and there will be questions of who supplies and maintains various components. The sorts of considerations that are standard on large arms deals.
* Hull built in Oz.
* Sensors and weapons systems from US.
* Powerplant from UK (RR PWR-2 or 3)
Probably not, though.1 -
I think that one possible reason for UK involvement is the deals that tech transfer between the UK and the US involved - the pumpjet designs and theory come to mind. So to disentangle the technical rights to some things to sell to third parties - and the Americans have only done sub deals in recents times with the UK - might need UK involvement.MaxPB said:
They couldn't, our nuclear sub technology is derived from the US tech sharing agreement. It means we can't sell it on. This agreement and, notably, the UK being on the inside means we can now.JosiasJessop said:
When we got rid of the Upholder (*) class (as DuraAce mentions above), we went all-nuclear on our boats. Most countries cannot be bothered with nukes, and want diesel-electric instead. We couldn't offer them that. The French could not either; but offered to redesign their latest nuke attack sub to be diesel powered.rcs1000 said:
I know we build our own submarines, but have we made any sales to other countries? France's defence industry exists because countries want Western technology, but don't want to be dependent on the US.CarlottaVance said:Interesting that the French fulmination over the subs deal makes no mention of the UK. Is that 1) a snub because they don’t want to credit us with anything on the global stage or 2) a recognition that in Europe the UK is the only other serious military power in town and that’s a bridge not worth burning?
The Spanish S-80 class is probably not in the running due to the (ahem) interesting problems they've had with it. Like making it the first submarine that could sink but not surface again. So they lengthened it to add buoyancy, which added a whole host of other issues ...
It's interesting that Oz never really considered the UK for their Collins replacements because of their nuke power - despite their requirements being perfect for nuclear power, given the area they have to patrol.
(*) For train fans, these use the Paxman Valenta engines that originally powered the HST.1 -
Not as different as some would like you to believe:
In Scotland, England and Wales, people are united in their belief that equality (78%, 76%, 78%), tolerance (83%, 83%, 83%), liberty (86%, 87%,83%), and diversity (82%, 82%, 80%) are important to making them proud of their nation.
The poll also showed that people are across the three nations are largely agreed on controversial social questions around limits on immigration, the nature of British history, and the balance between equality and opportunity in society.
On priorities, people in all three nations said that making the NHS the best healthcare system in the world needed to be the clear top focus for government.
Similarly, people across all the countries of the UK prioritised a dignified retirement for old people, fighting climate change, and making sure every child has the best education as other top priorities.
https://ourscottishfuture.org/poll-shows-uk-wide-shared-priorities-and-values/2 -
Something big my arse, Aussies buy a few boats from a guy who cannot even remember the down under guy's name and Boris butt licks as ever.CarlottaVance said:Usually when something v big happens internationally several members of the retired ambassador corps pop up within hours to say it proves again how isolated and rubbish Britain is of late. For now... silence.
https://twitter.com/iainmartin1/status/1438391557128863747?s=200 -
Should we be worried about Evergrande?0
-
Did a Renault 4 run over your cat? You seem a bit obsessed with France.CarlottaVance said:PARIS, Sept 16 (Reuters) - France will look to ensure any financial hit to Naval Group from a cancelled Australia submarine deal is limited, French Armed Forces Florence Parly said on Thursday.
Parly did not rule out France seeking compensation from Australia.
"We are studying all avenues," Parly told French radio RFI when asked whether France might seek compensation.
https://www.reuters.com/business/france-help-limit-financial-hit-naval-group-cancelled-australia-deal-2021-09-16/1 -
I think you have just illustrated my point.MaxPB said:
And yet here we are, in the room where France isn't.OnlyLivingBoy said:
UK scores one out of three on that categorisation.rcs1000 said:
The problem is that some countries have money (Germany), while others have capability (France), and everyone wants to be treated like they're really important.Casino_Royale said:Here's an idea: the EU just reframes itself as as trading block/regulatory union and gives up on "strategic autonomy" with the nations that care and do defence, France, Sweden and maybe Spain, integrating themselves into a pan-Western defence network worldwide.
There. Solved it.0 -
Well, the lawsuit agains AZN could prove a template here - push the matter into a dark corner, politically. Until it is a (bit) forgotten....CarlottaVance said:PARIS, Sept 16 (Reuters) - France will look to ensure any financial hit to Naval Group from a cancelled Australia submarine deal is limited, French Armed Forces Florence Parly said on Thursday.
Parly did not rule out France seeking compensation from Australia.
"We are studying all avenues," Parly told French radio RFI when asked whether France might seek compensation.
https://www.reuters.com/business/france-help-limit-financial-hit-naval-group-cancelled-australia-deal-2021-09-16/
0 -
I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.8 -
I'd like to know that as well.Gallowgate said:Should we be worried about Evergrande?
0 -
I can assess it immediately , total utter bollox from a jealous jingoistic country , pig sick that the Germans are better than them in every way other than US butt licking.Theuniondivvie said:
Who has been saying this, just so I can judge the value of such a suggestion?Big_G_NorthWales said:
It has been said that the reason this deal has come into place is not just that France's diesel subs were not suitable for Australia's defence requirements, but also that Germany is heading towards neutrality and that the EU and Germany could not be trusted not to share nuclear secrets with Russia or China0 -
I wish they'd refer to him as du Quai d'Orsay, though. I find that inexplicably cool.CarlottaVance said:Needs no translation:
"C'est vraiment un coup dans le dos", a regretté le chef de la diplomatie française Jean-Yves Le Drian sur France Info. "Cette décision unlilatérale, brutale, imprévisible ressemble beaucoup à ce que faisait M. Trump" #AFP
https://twitter.com/afpfr/status/1438403528934842370?s=200 -
Why am I not surprised , fools seldom differ.Philip_Thompson said:On Topic I agree that Truss would make an excellent PM.
I don't get the mass hate for Nadine Dorries. Is it just that she's an ardent Brexiteer so Remainers hate her? It seems that she's got sensible views on the BBC so seems an appropriate appointment for Culture. Plus I thought (may be wrong) she's worked as a Nurse through Covid as well as being a Health Minister which is pretty impressive really.0 -
Measured...malcolmg said:
I can assess it immediately , total utter bollox from a jealous jingoistic country , pig sick that the Germans are better than them in every way other than US butt licking.Theuniondivvie said:
Who has been saying this, just so I can judge the value of such a suggestion?Big_G_NorthWales said:
It has been said that the reason this deal has come into place is not just that France's diesel subs were not suitable for Australia's defence requirements, but also that Germany is heading towards neutrality and that the EU and Germany could not be trusted not to share nuclear secrets with Russia or China
Morning malc.0 -
🙄OnlyLivingBoy said:
I think you have just illustrated my point.MaxPB said:
And yet here we are, in the room where France isn't.OnlyLivingBoy said:
UK scores one out of three on that categorisation.rcs1000 said:
The problem is that some countries have money (Germany), while others have capability (France), and everyone wants to be treated like they're really important.Casino_Royale said:Here's an idea: the EU just reframes itself as as trading block/regulatory union and gives up on "strategic autonomy" with the nations that care and do defence, France, Sweden and maybe Spain, integrating themselves into a pan-Western defence network worldwide.
There. Solved it.
You remainers haven't had a great few days. Must be tough watching as the world begins to forget the EU exists.1 -
Scottish politics has been dominated for decades by a proposition that’s now demonstrably false: that the English are different from us. New research today from Our Scottish Future shows quite the opposite. If it were ever true that English values and priorities were different from Scotland’s, it ain’t now. In the things they value, attitudes they display, political priorities they have and their discontents, people across England are uncannily like us.
Scotland today is an open, modern society. But so is England: people in England are proud of exactly the same things about England, to almost exactly the same extent. If anything, England may be a tiny bit more tolerant and diverse.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-english-are-more-like-us-than-we-care-to-admit-bwdgk2bdc3 -
I was referring to Dorries, hence the posh boys comment.DecrepiterJohnL said:
Liz Truss did PPE at Oxford. She's no horny-handed son of toil.Foxy said:
I don't hate her. Indeed I think her more capable than most of the posh boys that don't know the price of milk in the government.Philip_Thompson said:On Topic I agree that Truss would make an excellent PM.
I don't get the mass hate for Nadine Dorries. Is it just that she's an ardent Brexiteer so Remainers hate her? It seems that she's got sensible views on the BBC so seems an appropriate appointment for Culture. Plus I thought (may be wrong) she's worked as a Nurse through Covid as well as being a Health Minister which is pretty impressive really.
I wouldn't reckon a culture war on the BBC would be a good tactic electorally though. The newer Con voters in the Red Wall are not keen to smash British institutions like Auntie.
https://www.gov.uk/government/people/elizabeth-truss0 -
Meanwhile, the Germans are busy arse-licking Putin, because they can’t live without Russian gas.malcolmg said:
I can assess it immediately , total utter bollox from a jealous jingoistic country , pig sick that the Germans are better than them in every way other than US butt licking.Theuniondivvie said:
Who has been saying this, just so I can judge the value of such a suggestion?Big_G_NorthWales said:
It has been said that the reason this deal has come into place is not just that France's diesel subs were not suitable for Australia's defence requirements, but also that Germany is heading towards neutrality and that the EU and Germany could not be trusted not to share nuclear secrets with Russia or China
Funnily enough, the UK and US don’t want to deal with people licking Putin’s arse.2 -
Bollox of the first orderBig_G_NorthWales said:
Scots want the SNP to govern and forget indyref2Theuniondivvie said:Groundgord Day on R4.
Broony: I know what Scots really want, and it’s not BJ & his muscular Unionism and it’s not the Scottish nationalists.
It’s Labour isn’t it!0 -
I hope that Boris is looking forward to never sleeping as he carves out his Pacific Global Britain from the North Atlantic.0
-
I understand the agreement is to be signed in the US next week with Boris travelling there and India and Japan invited to the ceremonyMaxPB said:I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.
I really do not think our remainer colleagues have even started to understand what a devastating and profound blow this is, not just to France, but the EU itself
And the BBC may finally wake up to this and cover it1 -
Too much , only so much bollox can be taken at this time of the morning. The amount of deluded jingoistic cretinous halfwits on here is breathtaking.MaxPB said:I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.3 -
Mordaunt out.
0 -
The French history on defence deals is vibrant, colourful and striking. Particularly doing the dirty on other people.CarlottaVance said:Needs no translation:
"C'est vraiment un coup dans le dos", a regretté le chef de la diplomatie française Jean-Yves Le Drian sur France Info. "Cette décision unlilatérale, brutale, imprévisible ressemble beaucoup à ce que faisait M. Trump" #AFP
https://twitter.com/afpfr/status/1438403528934842370?s=20
The above quote makes me think of Animal House -
Otter: He can't do that do that to our pledgesdefence deals
Boon: Only we can do that to our pledgesdefence deals
1 -
Nurses are generally dedicated and professional and caring, but when was the last time you were treated by a nurse and came away thinking “really that person should be running the country”?OldKingCole said:
Like most people, she has her good and bad sides. She's got some really wacky views but returning to nursing for a while during the pandemic was very creditable.CarlottaVance said:
Snobbery (intellectual and social) no doubt plays a part.Philip_Thompson said:On Topic I agree that Truss would make an excellent PM.
I don't get the mass hate for Nadine Dorries. Is it just that she's an ardent Brexiteer so Remainers hate her? It seems that she's got sensible views on the BBC so seems an appropriate appointment for Culture. Plus I thought (may be wrong) she's worked as a Nurse through Covid as well as being a Health Minister which is pretty impressive really.
Her first outing in her new role is at 09.30 in the HoC today.0 -
Maybe @RochdalePioneers should take noteCarlottaVance said:Scottish politics has been dominated for decades by a proposition that’s now demonstrably false: that the English are different from us. New research today from Our Scottish Future shows quite the opposite. If it were ever true that English values and priorities were different from Scotland’s, it ain’t now. In the things they value, attitudes they display, political priorities they have and their discontents, people across England are uncannily like us.
Scotland today is an open, modern society. But so is England: people in England are proud of exactly the same things about England, to almost exactly the same extent. If anything, England may be a tiny bit more tolerant and diverse.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-english-are-more-like-us-than-we-care-to-admit-bwdgk2bdc1 -
That is a very low bar and Brown is an absolute sellout traitor, a cretin and one of the worst arseholes to come out of Scotland in many many years.StuartDickson said:
The public archive is jam-packed full of evidence to the contrary. Broon is a spectacular specimen. The amazing thing is that his reputation in the history books will be far more flattering than the Tory duds who followed.Fishing said:
What in Brown's three years as Prime Minister - or since then - gave you a clue that he has any sense of shame or self-awareness?StuartDickson said:
Even he must flinch at his own ridiculousness. Just oozes insincerity.Theuniondivvie said:
Yep, ‘we must look again at the constitution’ was mumbled out with the concomitant absence of any concrete proposals.StuartDickson said:
The Big Broon One. The gift that keeps on giving.Theuniondivvie said:Groundgord Day on R4.
Broony: I know what Scots really want, and it’s not BJ & his muscular Unionism and it’s not the Scottish nationalists.
It’s Labour isn’t it!
Don’t tell me, he also relaunched “federalism” for the ten thousand five hundred and twenty second time?1 -
All I know about them is that they are a menace for pulling down trawlers. I got that from the telly.Dura_Ace said:
Long term detainees on pb.com become acculturated to confidently asserted ultracrepidarianism on all manner of subjects but some of last night's pronouncements by our newly emergent experts in submarines were really quite something.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Commented on here last night but of course you must come to your own conclusionTheuniondivvie said:
Who has been saying this, just so I can judge the value of such a suggestion?Big_G_NorthWales said:
It has been said that the reason this deal has come into place is not just that France's diesel subs were not suitable for Australia's defence requirements, but also that Germany is heading towards neutrality and that the EU and Germany could not be trusted not to share nuclear secrets with Russia or China
1 -
True though and Good Morning Malcmalcolmg said:
Bollox of the first orderBig_G_NorthWales said:
Scots want the SNP to govern and forget indyref2Theuniondivvie said:Groundgord Day on R4.
Broony: I know what Scots really want, and it’s not BJ & his muscular Unionism and it’s not the Scottish nationalists.
It’s Labour isn’t it!0 -
Mr. Sandpit, perhaps.
But a few years ago we stopped sharing anti-terror info with the Germans because it mysteriously kept being leaked. The sharing ended, the leaking stopped.4 -
You speak as if the goal of this was some sort of petty oneupmanship. Hopefully not.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I understand the agreement is to be signed in the US next week with Boris travelling there and India and Japan invited to the ceremonyMaxPB said:I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.
I really do not think our remainer colleagues have even started to understand what a devastating and profound blow this is, not just to France, but the EU itself
And the BBC may finally wake up to this and cover it0 -
I have no dog in the fight, but why do Leavers think that Look, Brexit fucked up the EU, is a banker of an argument?Big_G_NorthWales said:
I understand the agreement is to be signed in the US next week with Boris travelling there and India and Japan invited to the ceremonyMaxPB said:I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.
I really do not think our remainer colleagues have even started to understand what a devastating and profound blow this is, not just to France, but the EU itself
And the BBC may finally wake up to this and cover it6 -
So you were. My mistake. Carry on.Foxy said:
I was referring to Dorries, hence the posh boys comment.DecrepiterJohnL said:
Liz Truss did PPE at Oxford. She's no horny-handed son of toil.Foxy said:
I don't hate her. Indeed I think her more capable than most of the posh boys that don't know the price of milk in the government.Philip_Thompson said:On Topic I agree that Truss would make an excellent PM.
I don't get the mass hate for Nadine Dorries. Is it just that she's an ardent Brexiteer so Remainers hate her? It seems that she's got sensible views on the BBC so seems an appropriate appointment for Culture. Plus I thought (may be wrong) she's worked as a Nurse through Covid as well as being a Health Minister which is pretty impressive really.
I wouldn't reckon a culture war on the BBC would be a good tactic electorally though. The newer Con voters in the Red Wall are not keen to smash British institutions like Auntie.
https://www.gov.uk/government/people/elizabeth-truss0 -
It must be very difficult to read for you but it is the reality of yesterday's announcement, hence the fury from the French todaymalcolmg said:
Too much , only so much bollox can be taken at this time of the morning. The amount of deluded jingoistic cretinous halfwits on here is breathtaking.MaxPB said:I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.2 -
Flabby, late middle age Unionism in UJ shorts and shouting at everyone after the 6th pint of Stella Unionism rather than the muscular variety. Anyone care to set out some guidelines for 'Britishness' programme making? 'The Great British' prefixed to every title, Neil Oliver back on the Beeb?
NickFlag of United Kingdom
@nicktolhurst
+UPDATE+
UK govt to enshrine in OfCom regulations a legal obligation for national broadcasters to make “Britishness” a compulsory feature of TV.
All programs produced by the BBC & other domestic channels must be shown to be British & not “too international” or “generic”.
0 -
There's a political dimension to this that's been missed. From the start of the Astute project to the first boat being commissioned was 25 years. The Australians are trying to build a nuclear navy from nothing and their SSNs aren't going to happen any quicker than that. At some point in the program's lengthy timeline the Australian Greens are going to hold the balance of power in the HoR and/or Senate and will definitely try to cave it all in.0
-
Sounds like the comic thing the French do periodically - demanding French content on radio, TV etc.Theuniondivvie said:Flabby, late middle age Unionism in UJ shorts and shouting at everyone after the 6th pint of Stella Unionism rather than the muscular variety. Anyone care to set out some guidelines for 'Britishness' programme making? 'The Great British' prefixed to every title, Neil Oliver back on the Beeb?
NickFlag of United Kingdom
@nicktolhurst
+UPDATE+
UK govt to enshrine in OfCom regulations a legal obligation for national broadcasters to make “Britishness” a compulsory feature of TV.
All programs produced by the BBC & other domestic channels must be shown to be British & not “too international” or “generic”.
What was the one where DJs played the same song a zillion times (in France) in protest at one of these attempts?0 -
Unionists see what they want to see. Again. Yawn.CarlottaVance said:Not as different as some would like you to believe:
In Scotland, England and Wales, people are united in their belief that equality (78%, 76%, 78%), tolerance (83%, 83%, 83%), liberty (86%, 87%,83%), and diversity (82%, 82%, 80%) are important to making them proud of their nation.
The poll also showed that people are across the three nations are largely agreed on controversial social questions around limits on immigration, the nature of British history, and the balance between equality and opportunity in society.
On priorities, people in all three nations said that making the NHS the best healthcare system in the world needed to be the clear top focus for government.
Similarly, people across all the countries of the UK prioritised a dignified retirement for old people, fighting climate change, and making sure every child has the best education as other top priorities.
https://ourscottishfuture.org/poll-shows-uk-wide-shared-priorities-and-values/
0 -
Mr. Divvie, I'd probably want to (had I the time/inclination) read the full thingummyjig, but it does sound, in the shorthand, rather peculiar.
Also, there's an argument for some degree of that from the BBC (it is funded on a compulsory basis by UK taxpayers) but I don't think it's right for independent businesses.0 -
Wagamama owner The Restaurant Group is to put up chef wages in areas hardest-hit by the hospitality sector’s ongoing labour shortage.
Chief executive Andy Hornby told the Standard the group, which is also behind Frankie & Benny’s, will make the move as part of a whole host of measures to attract staff.
https://www.standard.co.uk/business/wagamama-owner-to-raise-chef-wages-as-staffing-crisis-bites-b955549.html0 -
This is no petty one-upmanship but a crisis for France and the EUJonathan said:
You speak as if the goal of this was some sort of petty oneupmanship. Hopefully not.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I understand the agreement is to be signed in the US next week with Boris travelling there and India and Japan invited to the ceremonyMaxPB said:I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.
I really do not think our remainer colleagues have even started to understand what a devastating and profound blow this is, not just to France, but the EU itself
And the BBC may finally wake up to this and cover it0 -
I voted remainIshmaelZ said:
I have no dog in the fight, but why do Leavers think that Look, Brexit fucked up the EU, is a banker of an argument?Big_G_NorthWales said:
I understand the agreement is to be signed in the US next week with Boris travelling there and India and Japan invited to the ceremonyMaxPB said:I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.
I really do not think our remainer colleagues have even started to understand what a devastating and profound blow this is, not just to France, but the EU itself
And the BBC may finally wake up to this and cover it0 -
Big_G can I just point out that the BBC did cover this last night, and they continue to have it as their lead story on the website.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I understand the agreement is to be signed in the US next week with Boris travelling there and India and Japan invited to the ceremonyMaxPB said:I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.
I really do not think our remainer colleagues have even started to understand what a devastating and profound blow this is, not just to France, but the EU itself
And the BBC may finally wake up to this and cover it
Are you also upset at all the newspaper front pages who, like the BBC, chose to lead last night with the cabinet reshuffle?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-58578976
PS "our remainer colleagues"... Didn't you vote Remain?0 -
It's not an argument so much as it is the reality of "Brexit means Brexit" as the EU kept telling us over "cherry picking" and such. It was always going to cut both ways but loads of remainers and the EU in general had blinded themselves to the reality of downside risks to the EU of Brexit. Not being in the room was pointed out as a huge downside risk to them of leaving, they brushed it off and acted as though the same level of security cooperation would exist. I remember having discussions with people on here about it and the general remain/EU assumption was that the UK would continue to play a full part in the defence of the EU, it was very obviously not going to happen that way.IshmaelZ said:
I have no dog in the fight, but why do Leavers think that Look, Brexit fucked up the EU, is a banker of an argument?Big_G_NorthWales said:
I understand the agreement is to be signed in the US next week with Boris travelling there and India and Japan invited to the ceremonyMaxPB said:I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.
I really do not think our remainer colleagues have even started to understand what a devastating and profound blow this is, not just to France, but the EU itself
And the BBC may finally wake up to this and cover it
Now everyone needs to live within that new reality. The UK brought the EU with it when we were members, now we won't.3 -
Why, it's not like anyone outside China will have investments in Chinese residential property?Gallowgate said:Should we be worried about Evergrande?
0 -
Thread on why the Franco-Australian deal was about a lot more than just Subs:
https://twitter.com/morcos_pierre/status/1438296932854730754?s=201 -
Les sous-marins ! Ce sont des choses trop graves pour les confier à des sous-mariniers.Dura_Ace said:
Long term detainees on pb.com become acculturated to confidently asserted ultracrepidarianism on all manner of subjects but some of last night's pronouncements by our newly emergent experts in submarines were really quite something.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Commented on here last night but of course you must come to your own conclusionTheuniondivvie said:
Who has been saying this, just so I can judge the value of such a suggestion?Big_G_NorthWales said:
It has been said that the reason this deal has come into place is not just that France's diesel subs were not suitable for Australia's defence requirements, but also that Germany is heading towards neutrality and that the EU and Germany could not be trusted not to share nuclear secrets with Russia or China0 -
OK I'LL SAY IT.
Shamima Begum looks quite hot.
BETTING ANGLE: she'll be on the front cover of Vogue, or another glossy, within six months.1 -
Well, not unless being very well paid for it.Sandpit said:
Meanwhile, the Germans are busy arse-licking Putin, because they can’t live without Russian gas.malcolmg said:
I can assess it immediately , total utter bollox from a jealous jingoistic country , pig sick that the Germans are better than them in every way other than US butt licking.Theuniondivvie said:
Who has been saying this, just so I can judge the value of such a suggestion?Big_G_NorthWales said:
It has been said that the reason this deal has come into place is not just that France's diesel subs were not suitable for Australia's defence requirements, but also that Germany is heading towards neutrality and that the EU and Germany could not be trusted not to share nuclear secrets with Russia or China
Funnily enough, the UK and US don’t want to deal with people licking Putin’s arse.
Nick
@nicktolhurst
14h
For those wondering where they heard of Anne-Marie Trevylan - the new trade minister - before..
…she’s largely funded by Russian oligarch Alexander Temerko. The same man who ploughed millions into the Conservative party over the last decade in an attempt to purchase influence.0 -
I was assuming that - at least for the first boats - it would be something like the original Dreadnought deal. The propulsion system will have to be bought from UK/US (probably US) almost as a unit...Dura_Ace said:There's a political dimension to this that's been missed. From the start of the Astute project to the first boat being commissioned was 25 years. The Australians are trying to build a nuclear navy from nothing and their SSNs aren't going to happen any quicker than that. At some point in the program's lengthy timeline the Australian Greens are going to hold the balance of power in the HoR and/or Senate and will definitely try to cave it all in.
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Nationalists can't face the facts. Again. Yawn.StuartDickson said:
Unionists see what they want to see. Again. Yawn.CarlottaVance said:Not as different as some would like you to believe:
In Scotland, England and Wales, people are united in their belief that equality (78%, 76%, 78%), tolerance (83%, 83%, 83%), liberty (86%, 87%,83%), and diversity (82%, 82%, 80%) are important to making them proud of their nation.
The poll also showed that people are across the three nations are largely agreed on controversial social questions around limits on immigration, the nature of British history, and the balance between equality and opportunity in society.
On priorities, people in all three nations said that making the NHS the best healthcare system in the world needed to be the clear top focus for government.
Similarly, people across all the countries of the UK prioritised a dignified retirement for old people, fighting climate change, and making sure every child has the best education as other top priorities.
https://ourscottishfuture.org/poll-shows-uk-wide-shared-priorities-and-values/0
