On Topic I agree that Truss would make an excellent PM.
I don't get the mass hate for Nadine Dorries. Is it just that she's an ardent Brexiteer so Remainers hate her? It seems that she's got sensible views on the BBC so seems an appropriate appointment for Culture. Plus I thought (may be wrong) she's worked as a Nurse through Covid as well as being a Health Minister which is pretty impressive really.
I don't hate her. Indeed I think her more capable than most of the posh boys that don't know the price of milk in the government.
I wouldn't reckon a culture war on the BBC would be a good tactic electorally though. The newer Con voters in the Red Wall are not keen to smash British institutions like Auntie.
Scottish politics has been dominated for decades by a proposition that’s now demonstrably false: that the English are different from us. New research today from Our Scottish Future shows quite the opposite. If it were ever true that English values and priorities were different from Scotland’s, it ain’t now. In the things they value, attitudes they display, political priorities they have and their discontents, people across England are uncannily like us.
Scotland today is an open, modern society. But so is England: people in England are proud of exactly the same things about England, to almost exactly the same extent. If anything, England may be a tiny bit more tolerant and diverse.
As ever stupid Tories think that just because we have some similarities we should all be English. Pathetic. Also the inevitable end bit that the English are always just that bit better than the lowly Scots and so we should continue to tug our forelock and just be faux English, make you vomit.
Flabby, late middle age Unionism in UJ shorts and shouting at everyone after the 6th pint of Stella Unionism rather than the muscular variety. Anyone care to set out some guidelines for 'Britishness' programme making? 'The Great British' prefixed to every title, Neil Oliver back on the Beeb?
NickFlag of United Kingdom @nicktolhurst +UPDATE+ UK govt to enshrine in OfCom regulations a legal obligation for national broadcasters to make “Britishness” a compulsory feature of TV. All programs produced by the BBC & other domestic channels must be shown to be British & not “too international” or “generic”.
Bang goes all those mini-series.
As people will of course have remembered, I am currently rewatching The West Wing. Every damn episode could apply to today's issues (last night's episode: the futility of the "War on Drugs").
Not as different as some would like you to believe:
In Scotland, England and Wales, people are united in their belief that equality (78%, 76%, 78%), tolerance (83%, 83%, 83%), liberty (86%, 87%,83%), and diversity (82%, 82%, 80%) are important to making them proud of their nation.
The poll also showed that people are across the three nations are largely agreed on controversial social questions around limits on immigration, the nature of British history, and the balance between equality and opportunity in society.
On priorities, people in all three nations said that making the NHS the best healthcare system in the world needed to be the clear top focus for government.
Similarly, people across all the countries of the UK prioritised a dignified retirement for old people, fighting climate change, and making sure every child has the best education as other top priorities.
I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.
I understand the agreement is to be signed in the US next week with Boris travelling there and India and Japan invited to the ceremony
I really do not think our remainer colleagues have even started to understand what a devastating and profound blow this is, not just to France, but the EU itself
And the BBC may finally wake up to this and cover it
I have no dog in the fight, but why do Leavers think that Look, Brexit fucked up the EU, is a banker of an argument?
It's not an argument so much as it is the reality of "Brexit means Brexit" as the EU kept telling us over "cherry picking" and such. It was always going to cut both ways but loads of remainers and the EU in general had blinded themselves to the reality of downside risks to the EU of Brexit. Not being in the room was pointed out as a huge downside risk to them of leaving, they brushed it off and acted as though the same level of security cooperation would exist. I remember having discussions with people on here about it and the general remain/EU assumption was that the UK would continue to play a full part in the defence of the EU, it was very obviously not going to happen that way.
Now everyone needs to live within that new reality. The UK brought the EU with it when we were members, now we won't.
I have no issue with that. EU membership for me was about the single market, common standards, freedom of movement, shared values. Defence cooperation was and is NATO, and now depending on how it develops AUKUS.
The French will be seething but these things happen. They will have to suck it up (but will no doubt also look for ways to get their own back).
Here's an idea: the EU just reframes itself as as trading block/regulatory union and gives up on "strategic autonomy" with the nations that care and do defence, France, Sweden and maybe Spain, integrating themselves into a pan-Western defence network worldwide.
There. Solved it.
The problem is that some countries have money (Germany), while others have capability (France), and everyone wants to be treated like they're really important.
UK scores one out of three on that categorisation.
And yet here we are, in the room where France isn't.
I think you have just illustrated my point.
🙄
You remainers haven't had a great few days. Must be tough watching as the world begins to forget the EU exists.
That's a bit of an odd one, Max. I still think it would be advantageous to be in the EU for the hassle free trade and I don't see any significant advantages of being outside, frankly. But that decision has been made for the forseeable future. My opinon on EU membership has no bearing on my opinion on defence alliances and their membership. The only point at which it could be relevant is if an EU defence force ever took off* and there were any conflicts from being in that on the one hand versus in something like AUKUS on the other.
*I know there's renewed chatter on that, but I don't really see it happening beyond a bit of window dressing. The EU is too unfocused and diverse to really pull it off, I think, and it makes the EU look more like a superstate which will be subject to a lot of pushback (same reasons 'ever closer union' was just words)
Edit: And of course, we all love sticking it to the French - good that we can still annoy them even outside of the EU
Flabby, late middle age Unionism in UJ shorts and shouting at everyone after the 6th pint of Stella Unionism rather than the muscular variety. Anyone care to set out some guidelines for 'Britishness' programme making? 'The Great British' prefixed to every title, Neil Oliver back on the Beeb?
NickFlag of United Kingdom @nicktolhurst +UPDATE+ UK govt to enshrine in OfCom regulations a legal obligation for national broadcasters to make “Britishness” a compulsory feature of TV. All programs produced by the BBC & other domestic channels must be shown to be British & not “too international” or “generic”.
Sounds like the comic thing the French do periodically - demanding French content on radio, TV etc.
What was the one where DJs played the same song a zillion times (in France) in protest at one of these attempts?
I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.
I understand the agreement is to be signed in the US next week with Boris travelling there and India and Japan invited to the ceremony
I really do not think our remainer colleagues have even started to understand what a devastating and profound blow this is, not just to France, but the EU itself
And the BBC may finally wake up to this and cover it
Big_G can I just point out that the BBC did cover this last night, and they continue to have it as their lead story on the website.
Are you also upset at all the newspaper front pages who, like the BBC, chose to lead last night with the cabinet reshuffle?
PS "our remainer colleagues"... Didn't you vote Remain?
This was a live statement by the President of the US, and Prime Ministers of UK and Australia and notified to the media worldwide.
Sky covered it live and have been heavily featuring it but the BBC coverage has been poor
The front pages are very different as they were going to press during the announcement but broadcast media are able to be far more flexible and do 'breaking news' all the time
This announcement has understandably upset EU supporters and those on the left as it has profound implications
I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.
I understand the agreement is to be signed in the US next week with Boris travelling there and India and Japan invited to the ceremony
I really do not think our remainer colleagues have even started to understand what a devastating and profound blow this is, not just to France, but the EU itself
And the BBC may finally wake up to this and cover it
I have no dog in the fight, but why do Leavers think that Look, Brexit fucked up the EU, is a banker of an argument?
It's not an argument so much as it is the reality of "Brexit means Brexit" as the EU kept telling us over "cherry picking" and such. It was always going to cut both ways but loads of remainers and the EU in general had blinded themselves to the reality of downside risks to the EU of Brexit. Not being in the room was pointed out as a huge downside risk to them of leaving, they brushed it off and acted as though the same level of security cooperation would exist. I remember having discussions with people on here about it and the general remain/EU assumption was that the UK would continue to play a full part in the defence of the EU, it was very obviously not going to happen that way.
Now everyone needs to live within that new reality. The UK brought the EU with it when we were members, now we won't.
At the time of the Brexit negotiations someone observed that the EU was tactically smart but strategically short sighted - asking us for cooperation on defence and security but cutting us out of Galileo.....and UvdL in her state of the union address the other day didn't mention the UK at all or Biden, but did mention Xi.....as yea sow so shall yea reap.....
I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.
I understand the agreement is to be signed in the US next week with Boris travelling there and India and Japan invited to the ceremony
I really do not think our remainer colleagues have even started to understand what a devastating and profound blow this is, not just to France, but the EU itself
And the BBC may finally wake up to this and cover it
I have no dog in the fight, but why do Leavers think that Look, Brexit fucked up the EU, is a banker of an argument?
Brexit didn't fuck up the EU.
The fucked up attitudes of the EU led to Brexit and aided in the EU being fucked up.
Brexit and the EU's fucked uppedness are entirely self enflicted by the EU's arrogance and delusions of grandeur.
Mr. L, I actually caught a spot of news yesterday (unusual for me nowadays) that indicated South Korea was beefing up its military capabilities. The line taken (BBC) was that this was trying to stand on it sown two feet rather than being reliant on the USA, but I wonder if it's that or simply wanting to be stronger (ie more Korean forces *and* the USA as an ally).
Korean military capabilities are most immediately focused on deterring their unpredictable and dangerous sister country to the north. And the US has not demonstrated itself the most reliable partner in recent years. Biden is trying to rebuild trust in the region, but who knows what might happen post 2024 ? As far as US/China is concerned, South Korea has always (to a greater or lesser extent) pursued 'strategic ambiguity'. And China is a near neighbour and very large trading partner. They might be forced into a less ambiguous posture in the near future. China does not like that idea: https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=315621
I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.
Too much , only so much bollox can be taken at this time of the morning. The amount of deluded jingoistic cretinous halfwits on here is breathtaking.
It must be very difficult to read for you but it is the reality of yesterday's announcement, hence the fury from the French today
Why would it be difficult for me to read. Anyone with an IQ above cretin would not care a toss. You deluded halfwitted jingoistic Little Britain Tories halfwits are totally barking. Do you ever reread your posts and hang your head in shame , knowing that people will be shaking their heads and saying "what are these fools on about". I am amazed at the absolute stupidity shown on here on a daily basis. MENTAL is all you could say.
BETTING ANGLE: she'll be on the front cover of Vogue, or another glossy, within six months.
Frankly, I wish we could all just focus on her abilities in terrorism and stop obsessing over her looks and possible political leanings (although she is presumably a remainer, for freedom of movement, if nothing else).
BETTING ANGLE: she'll be on the front cover of Vogue, or another glossy, within six months.
Just because she got a stylist, and did her hair and make-up, doesn’t mean that she stopped being a terrorist.
She says she regrets what she did as a 15-yr old. While I appreciate most 15yr olds don't express their rebellious nature by travelling to war zones to become a child bride of an fundamentalist terrorist group, but she was a child at the time.
I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.
I understand the agreement is to be signed in the US next week with Boris travelling there and India and Japan invited to the ceremony
I really do not think our remainer colleagues have even started to understand what a devastating and profound blow this is, not just to France, but the EU itself
And the BBC may finally wake up to this and cover it
Big_G can I just point out that the BBC did cover this last night, and they continue to have it as their lead story on the website.
As I pointed out at the time. It's the lead on their website this morning, too. @Big_G_NorthWales perhaps relies too much on the assertions of PB posters ?
I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.
I understand the agreement is to be signed in the US next week with Boris travelling there and India and Japan invited to the ceremony
I really do not think our remainer colleagues have even started to understand what a devastating and profound blow this is, not just to France, but the EU itself
And the BBC may finally wake up to this and cover it
Big_G can I just point out that the BBC did cover this last night, and they continue to have it as their lead story on the website.
Are you also upset at all the newspaper front pages who, like the BBC, chose to lead last night with the cabinet reshuffle?
PS "our remainer colleagues"... Didn't you vote Remain?
This was a live statement by the President of the US, and Prime Ministers of UK and Australia and notified to the media worldwide.
Sky covered it live and have been heavily featuring it but the BBC coverage has been poor
The front pages are very different as they were going to press during the announcement but broadcast media are able to be far more flexible and do 'breaking news' all the time
This announcement has understandably upset EU supporters and those on the left as it has profound implications
As I said last night, if it was that important why did Boris decide to do a reshuffle the same day?
BETTING ANGLE: she'll be on the front cover of Vogue, or another glossy, within six months.
Frankly, I wish we could all just focus on her abilities in terrorism and stop obsessing over her looks and possible political leanings (although she is presumably a remainer, for freedom of movement, if nothing else).
I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.
I understand the agreement is to be signed in the US next week with Boris travelling there and India and Japan invited to the ceremony
I really do not think our remainer colleagues have even started to understand what a devastating and profound blow this is, not just to France, but the EU itself
And the BBC may finally wake up to this and cover it
Big_G can I just point out that the BBC did cover this last night, and they continue to have it as their lead story on the website.
Are you also upset at all the newspaper front pages who, like the BBC, chose to lead last night with the cabinet reshuffle?
PS "our remainer colleagues"... Didn't you vote Remain?
This was a live statement by the President of the US, and Prime Ministers of UK and Australia and notified to the media worldwide.
Sky covered it live and have been heavily featuring it but the BBC coverage has been poor
The front pages are very different as they were going to press during the announcement but broadcast media are able to be far more flexible and do 'breaking news' all the time
This announcement has understandably upset EU supporters and those on the left as it has profound implications
I find it interesting, having voted Remain for pragmatic reasons (and I expected a second vote within a decade or 2 to be for exit), to see the investment that the sides still have in it.
Here's an idea: the EU just reframes itself as as trading block/regulatory union and gives up on "strategic autonomy" with the nations that care and do defence, France, Sweden and maybe Spain, integrating themselves into a pan-Western defence network worldwide.
There. Solved it.
The problem is that some countries have money (Germany), while others have capability (France), and everyone wants to be treated like they're really important.
UK scores one out of three on that categorisation.
And yet here we are, in the room where France isn't.
I think you have just illustrated my point.
🙄
You remainers haven't had a great few days. Must be tough watching as the world begins to forget the EU exists.
That's a bit of an odd one, Max. I still think it would be advantageous to be in the EU for the hassle free trade and I don't see any significant advantages of being outside, frankly. But that decision has been made for the forseeable future. My opinon on EU membership has no bearing on my opinion on defence alliances and their membership. The only point at which it could be relevant is if an EU defence force ever took off* and there were any conflicts from being in that on the one hand versus in something like AUKUS on the other.
*I know there's renewed chatter on that, but I don't really see it happening beyond a bit of window dressing. The EU is too unfocused and diverse to really pull it off, I think, and it makes the EU look more like a superstate which will be subject to a lot of pushback (same reasons 'ever closer union' was just words)
"Exclusive: Get ready for a general election, says Oliver Dowden New Conservative chairman tells party staff that the fight for votes starts now, with a poll as little as 20 months away"
Biggest story overnight - big ramifications, Europe sidelined, coup for Britain. We'll unpack it for you/ US builds bulwark against China with UK-Australia security pact
It has been said that the reason this deal has come into place is not just that France's diesel subs were not suitable for Australia's defence requirements, but also that Germany is heading towards neutrality and that the EU and Germany could not be trusted not to share nuclear secrets with Russia or China
Who has been saying this, just so I can judge the value of such a suggestion?
I can assess it immediately , total utter bollox from a jealous jingoistic country , pig sick that the Germans are better than them in every way other than US butt licking.
Meanwhile, the Germans are busy arse-licking Putin, because they can’t live without Russian gas.
Funnily enough, the UK and US don’t want to deal with people licking Putin’s arse.
Well, not unless being very well paid for it.
Nick @nicktolhurst 14h For those wondering where they heard of Anne-Marie Trevylan - the new trade minister - before.. …she’s largely funded by Russian oligarch Alexander Temerko. The same man who ploughed millions into the Conservative party over the last decade in an attempt to purchase influence.
They all have at least one Russian handler as a minimum
BETTING ANGLE: she'll be on the front cover of Vogue, or another glossy, within six months.
Just because she got a stylist, and did her hair and make-up, doesn’t mean that she stopped being a terrorist.
She says she regrets what she did as a 15-yr old. While I appreciate most 15yr olds don't express their rebellious nature by travelling to war zones to become a child bride of an fundamentalist terrorist group, but she was a child at the time.
And is seemingly repentant now.
Teenage rebellion is dying your hair purple or getting a small tattoo. Moving to a terrorist war zone and wanting to kill the evil westerners is a slightly different level.
Why would it be in the UK’s interest to let a Trojan Horse back into the country?
I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.
Too much , only so much bollox can be taken at this time of the morning. The amount of deluded jingoistic cretinous halfwits on here is breathtaking.
It must be very difficult to read for you but it is the reality of yesterday's announcement, hence the fury from the French today
Why would it be difficult for me to read. Anyone with an IQ above cretin would not care a toss. You deluded halfwitted jingoistic Little Britain Tories halfwits are totally barking. Do you ever reread your posts and hang your head in shame , knowing that people will be shaking their heads and saying "what are these fools on about". I am amazed at the absolute stupidity shown on here on a daily basis. MENTAL is all you could say.
Bit early for the cask strength Turnip juice. Back on the 40% for you....
I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.
I understand the agreement is to be signed in the US next week with Boris travelling there and India and Japan invited to the ceremony
I really do not think our remainer colleagues have even started to understand what a devastating and profound blow this is, not just to France, but the EU itself
And the BBC may finally wake up to this and cover it
Big_G can I just point out that the BBC did cover this last night, and they continue to have it as their lead story on the website.
As I pointed out at the time. It's the lead on their website this morning, too. @Big_G_NorthWales perhaps relies too much on the assertions of PB posters ?
It was the second item on the R4 midnight news after the re-shuffle.
There's a political dimension to this that's been missed. From the start of the Astute project to the first boat being commissioned was 25 years. The Australians are trying to build a nuclear navy from nothing and their SSNs aren't going to happen any quicker than that. At some point in the program's lengthy timeline the Australian Greens are going to hold the balance of power in the HoR and/or Senate and will definitely try to cave it all in.
I don't at all agree.
From having spent years living there I would point out that in Australia there is very much a deep strand of thought that they need to be able to defend themselves and not just rely upon the UK or the USA.
At least while I lived there in the 90s there is a major thought that Britain isn't entirely trusted downunder because of Gallipoli and the British "betrayal" in joining the EEC. No idea if Brexit has fully repaired that damage or not, probably not.
Similarly the USA isn't entirely trusted either as it's thought the USA will always look after their own interests first.
Plus Australia is quite isolated and has its own indigenous flaura and fauna.
So there is a major part to the Australian mindset that they need to be able to depend upon themselves. Not a chance they'll cancel having their own nuclear submarines for their own defence.
There's a political dimension to this that's been missed. From the start of the Astute project to the first boat being commissioned was 25 years. The Australians are trying to build a nuclear navy from nothing and their SSNs aren't going to happen any quicker than that. At some point in the program's lengthy timeline the Australian Greens are going to hold the balance of power in the HoR and/or Senate and will definitely try to cave it all in.
I'm sure you're right that the Greens will oppose it. I see ex-PM Paul Keating has attacked it as well. Has Australian Labor taken a view? Some Aussie polling wolud be interesting.
Furious French foreign minister Le Drian this morning on the United Kingdom United States Australia deal: a "knife in the back", "betrayal of confidence", "allies don't do this to each other". Rare to hear quite this sort of language. France (which had its own conventional submarine contract with Australia) is very angry
There's nothing more amusing and entertaining than a petulant French strop.
I presume they use language like "knife in the back" since that's exactly how they operate - they're just incandescent they've been beaten at their own game.
BETTING ANGLE: she'll be on the front cover of Vogue, or another glossy, within six months.
Just because she got a stylist, and did her hair and make-up, doesn’t mean that she stopped being a terrorist.
She says she regrets what she did as a 15-yr old. While I appreciate most 15yr olds don't express their rebellious nature by travelling to war zones to become a child bride of an fundamentalist terrorist group, but she was a child at the time.
And is seemingly repentant now.
Teenage rebellion is dying your hair purple or getting a small tattoo. Moving to a terrorist war zone and wanting to kill the evil westerners is a slightly different level.
Why would it be in the UK’s interest to let a Trojan Horse back into the country?
Because she is a Brit. And do you think any right-minded terrorist is going to associate with arguably the most high profile ex-ISIS bride on the planet?
She will be mobbed going to Tescos to stare at the empty shelves. In fact her life would be very difficult which means perhaps she should go somewhere else.
And she was a child at the time. There are rehabilitation programmes for eg. child soldiers who perpetrated some horrific acts. So why not an ex-ISIS child bride?
BETTING ANGLE: she'll be on the front cover of Vogue, or another glossy, within six months.
Just because she got a stylist, and did her hair and make-up, doesn’t mean that she stopped being a terrorist.
She says she regrets what she did as a 15-yr old. While I appreciate most 15yr olds don't express their rebellious nature by travelling to war zones to become a child bride of an fundamentalist terrorist group, but she was a child at the time.
And is seemingly repentant now.
Teenage rebellion is dying your hair purple or getting a small tattoo. Moving to a terrorist war zone and wanting to kill the evil westerners is a slightly different level.
Why would it be in the UK’s interest to let a Trojan Horse back into the country?
Absolutely agreed. I couldn't care less how many crocodile tears she cries or how repentant she is.
Not our problem she can be repentant and live her life wherever else she wants but not here. She made her bed she can lie in it.
Let someone who doesn't think killing westerners is a good idea take her place in the country.
I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.
I understand the agreement is to be signed in the US next week with Boris travelling there and India and Japan invited to the ceremony
I really do not think our remainer colleagues have even started to understand what a devastating and profound blow this is, not just to France, but the EU itself
And the BBC may finally wake up to this and cover it
I have no dog in the fight, but why do Leavers think that Look, Brexit fucked up the EU, is a banker of an argument?
It's not an argument so much as it is the reality of "Brexit means Brexit" as the EU kept telling us over "cherry picking" and such. It was always going to cut both ways but loads of remainers and the EU in general had blinded themselves to the reality of downside risks to the EU of Brexit. Not being in the room was pointed out as a huge downside risk to them of leaving, they brushed it off and acted as though the same level of security cooperation would exist. I remember having discussions with people on here about it and the general remain/EU assumption was that the UK would continue to play a full part in the defence of the EU, it was very obviously not going to happen that way.
Now everyone needs to live within that new reality. The UK brought the EU with it when we were members, now we won't.
The EU have decided to exclude the UK from its defence and foreign policy forums out of ideology, unless the UK just tag along with whatever they decide after the decision has been made.
They have only themselves to blame. The good news is that they rarely make any decision so the problem is largely a hypothetical one.
BETTING ANGLE: she'll be on the front cover of Vogue, or another glossy, within six months.
She's not stupid, and is clearly being well advised by a PR agency paid for by sympathisers.
Casino mate having skimmed some of your aux barricades posts last night I would think the last thing that you should be doing is getting involved in a debate about returning ex-ISIS child brides.
BETTING ANGLE: she'll be on the front cover of Vogue, or another glossy, within six months.
Just because she got a stylist, and did her hair and make-up, doesn’t mean that she stopped being a terrorist.
She says she regrets what she did as a 15-yr old. While I appreciate most 15yr olds don't express their rebellious nature by travelling to war zones to become a child bride of an fundamentalist terrorist group, but she was a child at the time.
And is seemingly repentant now.
I think one has to accept that all the details available to the Home Secretary's are not, and are never likely to be, available to the public. So it might be difficult to make a judgement. However, I do feel that a) she was a 'child', albeit with the potential of being a very dangerous adult when she 'fled' and b) she appears to have no other nationality than British, and therefore she should be allowed to return to UK, although either under arrest or immediately arrested on return and subjected to thorough questioning. And should be prepared for a long period of imprisonment or at least restraint and supervision.
Morris she's got a Sophia Loren El Cid vibe going.
Topping, she's a 23 year old girl. You're (I think?) a middle aged man. OF COURSE she's quite hot. That's how human biology works. We're programmed to find that sort of thing attractive.
BETTING ANGLE: she'll be on the front cover of Vogue, or another glossy, within six months.
Just because she got a stylist, and did her hair and make-up, doesn’t mean that she stopped being a terrorist.
She says she regrets what she did as a 15-yr old. While I appreciate most 15yr olds don't express their rebellious nature by travelling to war zones to become a child bride of an fundamentalist terrorist group, but she was a child at the time.
And is seemingly repentant now.
Teenage rebellion is dying your hair purple or getting a small tattoo. Moving to a terrorist war zone and wanting to kill the evil westerners is a slightly different level.
Why would it be in the UK’s interest to let a Trojan Horse back into the country?
Absolutely agreed. I couldn't care less how many crocodile tears she cries or how repentant she is.
Not our problem she can be repentant and live her life wherever else she wants but not here. She made her bed she can lie in it.
Let someone who doesn't think killing westerners is a good idea take her place in the country.
Oh indeed. Plenty of Afghan translators who can go in front of her in the queue.
I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.
I understand the agreement is to be signed in the US next week with Boris travelling there and India and Japan invited to the ceremony
I really do not think our remainer colleagues have even started to understand what a devastating and profound blow this is, not just to France, but the EU itself
And the BBC may finally wake up to this and cover it
Big_G can I just point out that the BBC did cover this last night, and they continue to have it as their lead story on the website.
Are you also upset at all the newspaper front pages who, like the BBC, chose to lead last night with the cabinet reshuffle?
PS "our remainer colleagues"... Didn't you vote Remain?
This was a live statement by the President of the US, and Prime Ministers of UK and Australia and notified to the media worldwide.
Sky covered it live and have been heavily featuring it but the BBC coverage has been poor
The front pages are very different as they were going to press during the announcement but broadcast media are able to be far more flexible and do 'breaking news' all the time
This announcement has understandably upset EU supporters and those on the left as it has profound implications
As I said last night, if it was that important why did Boris decide to do a reshuffle the same day?
Morris she's got a Sophia Loren El Cid vibe going.
Topping, she's a 23 year old girl. You're (I think?) a middle aged man. OF COURSE she's quite hot. That's how human biology works. We're programmed to find that sort of thing attractive.
She's also being very well advised.
The way she went on in that GMB interview, it’s as if her advisors are trying to persuade us that she’s a sweet young lady who just won a tennis tournament or something.
Morris she's got a Sophia Loren El Cid vibe going.
Topping, she's a 23 year old girl. You're (I think?) a middle aged man. OF COURSE she's quite hot. That's how human biology works. We're programmed to find that sort of thing attractive.
BETTING ANGLE: she'll be on the front cover of Vogue, or another glossy, within six months.
She's not stupid, and is clearly being well advised by a PR agency paid for by sympathisers.
Casino mate having skimmed some of your aux barricades posts last night I would think the last thing that you should be doing is getting involved in a debate about returning ex-ISIS child brides.
Mr. Topping, the only thing I'm undecided about is whether to fire her into the heart of the sun from some sort of giant cannon, or to go green and let the solar-powered death ray do its righteous work.
I've been saying this for years, based on the view that British people should face British justice not simply have all their rights as British citizens waived at the whim of politicians on the make and "intelligence" from the people who thought that Saddam had WMD. You know, due process, the rule of law, things this country used to be famous for. Her looks shouldn't come into it.
Flabby, late middle age Unionism in UJ shorts and shouting at everyone after the 6th pint of Stella Unionism rather than the muscular variety. Anyone care to set out some guidelines for 'Britishness' programme making? 'The Great British' prefixed to every title, Neil Oliver back on the Beeb?
NickFlag of United Kingdom @nicktolhurst +UPDATE+ UK govt to enshrine in OfCom regulations a legal obligation for national broadcasters to make “Britishness” a compulsory feature of TV. All programs produced by the BBC & other domestic channels must be shown to be British & not “too international” or “generic”.
And to think PB Tories used to mock the French for this kind of crap...
I've been saying this for years, based on the view that British people should face British justice not simply have all their rights as British citizens waived at the whim of politicians on the make and "intelligence" from the people who thought that Saddam had WMD. You know, due process, the rule of law, things this country used to be famous for. Her looks shouldn't come into it.
I'm in favour of letting her into the country. Provided she goes on trial, immediately, for the war crimes she committed.
Of course we should let Shamima Begun back in whatever the hateful Mail keep spewing out.
We've all made mistakes. Hers was a big one but she was a highly impressionable teenager. Time to rehabilitate, which would make for a far more powerful message as well.
For those of us who aren't part of your inner club & don't sit on here all day any chance of explaining who you're on about?
I was referring to @Casino_Royale, @Sandpit and @Philip_Thompson's desire to have Shamima Begum return to Britain to face British justice because she a Brit.
BETTING ANGLE: she'll be on the front cover of Vogue, or another glossy, within six months.
She's not stupid, and is clearly being well advised by a PR agency paid for by sympathisers.
Casino mate having skimmed some of your aux barricades posts last night I would think the last thing that you should be doing is getting involved in a debate about returning ex-ISIS child brides.
Non-sequiter of the year.
Just worried about your anger levels. Not sure you can cope with fighting a war on two fronts.
Flabby, late middle age Unionism in UJ shorts and shouting at everyone after the 6th pint of Stella Unionism rather than the muscular variety. Anyone care to set out some guidelines for 'Britishness' programme making? 'The Great British' prefixed to every title, Neil Oliver back on the Beeb?
NickFlag of United Kingdom @nicktolhurst +UPDATE+ UK govt to enshrine in OfCom regulations a legal obligation for national broadcasters to make “Britishness” a compulsory feature of TV. All programs produced by the BBC & other domestic channels must be shown to be British & not “too international” or “generic”.
And to think PB Tories used to mock the French for this kind of crap...
Apparently it's good that we're copying the French now.
Anyway, I've popped back on to refer to Sky News' report about preparing for the General Election. They're quoting Oliver Dowden and saying it's pencilled in for 20 months time, so May 2023.
Interesting and I'm not wholly surprised. Johnson will hope to surf his goodwill before the real trouble kicks in with our public finances and lies about levelling up.
However, I expect him when it comes to it to dither and put it off.
I've been saying this for years, based on the view that British people should face British justice not simply have all their rights as British citizens waived at the whim of politicians on the make and "intelligence" from the people who thought that Saddam had WMD. You know, due process, the rule of law, things this country used to be famous for. Her looks shouldn't come into it.
I'm in favour of letting her into the country. Provided she goes on trial, immediately, for the war crimes she committed.
Can't argue with that. Let her go on trial for whatever crimes she has committed under UK law.
Flabby, late middle age Unionism in UJ shorts and shouting at everyone after the 6th pint of Stella Unionism rather than the muscular variety. Anyone care to set out some guidelines for 'Britishness' programme making? 'The Great British' prefixed to every title, Neil Oliver back on the Beeb?
NickFlag of United Kingdom @nicktolhurst +UPDATE+ UK govt to enshrine in OfCom regulations a legal obligation for national broadcasters to make “Britishness” a compulsory feature of TV. All programs produced by the BBC & other domestic channels must be shown to be British & not “too international” or “generic”.
And to think PB Tories used to mock the French for this kind of crap...
Apparently it's good that we're copying the French now.
If we had been a bit more French in the European context, Brexit wouldn't have happened.
BETTING ANGLE: she'll be on the front cover of Vogue, or another glossy, within six months.
Just because she got a stylist, and did her hair and make-up, doesn’t mean that she stopped being a terrorist.
She says she regrets what she did as a 15-yr old. While I appreciate most 15yr olds don't express their rebellious nature by travelling to war zones to become a child bride of an fundamentalist terrorist group, but she was a child at the time.
And is seemingly repentant now.
She looks like Kamran Akmal in a wig
Jamie Bulger’s murderers were children too, it wouldn’t do for them to be on tv asking for a second chance or for people to say how handsome they are now.
I've been saying this for years, based on the view that British people should face British justice not simply have all their rights as British citizens waived at the whim of politicians on the make and "intelligence" from the people who thought that Saddam had WMD. You know, due process, the rule of law, things this country used to be famous for. Her looks shouldn't come into it.
I'm in favour of letting her into the country. Provided she goes on trial, immediately, for the war crimes she committed.
I'm kind of with you, on the basis that she is British - she was born here, raised here. She's a product of here and she should be our problem.
I'd have her back, but in prison for a prolonged period of time. I'm not sure whether that bit aligns with your views. The practical problem of course is whether there's realistic chance of convicting her if she returned.
I've been saying this for years, based on the view that British people should face British justice not simply have all their rights as British citizens waived at the whim of politicians on the make and "intelligence" from the people who thought that Saddam had WMD. You know, due process, the rule of law, things this country used to be famous for. Her looks shouldn't come into it.
I'm in favour of letting her into the country. Provided she goes on trial, immediately, for the war crimes she committed.
Silly
Why is suggesting that criminals* get sent to a courtroom silly?
*She has freely admitted to actively participating in crimes that are recognised as war crimes.
Can't believe the discussion on here this morning.
Time for the ban hammer to start quivering?
Why?
The discussion of the IS woman has moved sufficiently away from the rights or wrongs of the case and the politics to the point that I think Mike and TSE could get into trouble as they run the site.
Maybe I am being too bed wetty after a poor night's sleep - just my opinion.
Of course we should let Shamima Begun back in whatever the hateful Mail keep spewing out.
We've all made mistakes. Hers was a big one but she was a highly impressionable teenager. Time to rehabilitate, which would make for a far more powerful message as well.
It's not like there's no precedent. One such person presents a very popular radio programme on national radio and even ran for office as an MP ffs.
I've been saying this for years, based on the view that British people should face British justice not simply have all their rights as British citizens waived at the whim of politicians on the make and "intelligence" from the people who thought that Saddam had WMD. You know, due process, the rule of law, things this country used to be famous for. Her looks shouldn't come into it.
I'm in favour of letting her into the country. Provided she goes on trial, immediately, for the war crimes she committed.
War crimes she is alleged to have committed - Innocent until proven guilty, another important principle of British justice. But yes, get her back, put her on trial. We have a legal system, let's use it. The situation she is in now makes a mockery of the rule of law and is an affront to all notions of natural justice.
For those of us who aren't part of your inner club & don't sit on here all day any chance of explaining who you're on about?
I was referring to @Casino_Royale, @Sandpit and @Philip_Thompson's desire to have Shamima Begum return to Britain to face British justice because she a Brit.
I stand with them.
Just to be clear: I haven't said any such thing.
If she was a naïve young teenager who fell in with the wrong crowd (as she portrays herself) then I might be inclined to give her 2-3 years in jail, a slap on the wrist and an ambassador for deradicalisation.
However, any interview with her shows her to be evasive, deceitful and manipulative. @Yokes will know the details but our intelligence services were very strong on the evidence against her and on not letting her back in, and stripping her of her British citizenship unanimously passed the Supreme Court - which is a very high test.
Flabby, late middle age Unionism in UJ shorts and shouting at everyone after the 6th pint of Stella Unionism rather than the muscular variety. Anyone care to set out some guidelines for 'Britishness' programme making? 'The Great British' prefixed to every title, Neil Oliver back on the Beeb?
NickFlag of United Kingdom @nicktolhurst +UPDATE+ UK govt to enshrine in OfCom regulations a legal obligation for national broadcasters to make “Britishness” a compulsory feature of TV. All programs produced by the BBC & other domestic channels must be shown to be British & not “too international” or “generic”.
And to think PB Tories used to mock the French for this kind of crap...
Apparently it's good that we're copying the French now.
An A Level History question from the year 2150 or so;
"Brexit gave the United Kingdom the freedom to become more European." Discuss.
What would go in a grade A********* question?
(Prior to yesterday, I would have added a line about how this new grade had been recently introduced by the Schools Minister, Nick Gibb's brain preserved in a jar of formaldehyde. Hey ho.)
BETTING ANGLE: she'll be on the front cover of Vogue, or another glossy, within six months.
Damn - I was going to post that last night, but pulled out at the last minute... Seems to have lost weight.
You are both Sean Thomas and I claim my £10.
This forum really does come across as an old man's white club sometimes. Sorry but true. Don't take offence, it's just my impression and why I often keep off. It's not a place where a more gentle minded female feels particularly welcome.
I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.
I understand the agreement is to be signed in the US next week with Boris travelling there and India and Japan invited to the ceremony
I really do not think our remainer colleagues have even started to understand what a devastating and profound blow this is, not just to France, but the EU itself
And the BBC may finally wake up to this and cover it
I have no dog in the fight, but why do Leavers think that Look, Brexit fucked up the EU, is a banker of an argument?
It's not an argument so much as it is the reality of "Brexit means Brexit" as the EU kept telling us over "cherry picking" and such. It was always going to cut both ways but loads of remainers and the EU in general had blinded themselves to the reality of downside risks to the EU of Brexit. Not being in the room was pointed out as a huge downside risk to them of leaving, they brushed it off and acted as though the same level of security cooperation would exist. I remember having discussions with people on here about it and the general remain/EU assumption was that the UK would continue to play a full part in the defence of the EU, it was very obviously not going to happen that way.
Now everyone needs to live within that new reality. The UK brought the EU with it when we were members, now we won't.
I have no issue with that. EU membership for me was about the single market, common standards, freedom of movement, shared values. Defence cooperation was and is NATO, and now depending on how it develops AUKUS.
The French will be seething but these things happen. They will have to suck it up (but will no doubt also look for ways to get their own back).
We cannot ignore France however, they are the strongest European military power alongside us within NATO in terms of containing Putin's Russia. They have also played a key role with us in Africa in taking on jihadis.
Yes we can share technologies and enable Australia to have nuclear submarines but at the end of the day it is regional powers in the Far East and Oceania ie not only Australia but Japan and South Korea and maybe India who need to take the lead on containing Xi's China under US leadership. We can provide support but we remain a power in Europe and the Atlantic mainly, since the end of the British Empire we are not a global superpower and since the Hong Kong handover there has been no danger of China threatening British territory directly
I'm kind of with you, on the basis that she is British - she was born here, raised here. She's a product of here and she should be our problem.
I'd have her back, but in prison for a prolonged period of time. I'm not sure whether that bit aligns with your views. The practical problem of course is whether there's realistic chance of convicting her if she returned.
Seeing as she has admitted, if downplayed, her involvement surely she is a banker to be convicted on something?
I've been saying this for years, based on the view that British people should face British justice not simply have all their rights as British citizens waived at the whim of politicians on the make and "intelligence" from the people who thought that Saddam had WMD. You know, due process, the rule of law, things this country used to be famous for. Her looks shouldn't come into it.
I'm in favour of letting her into the country. Provided she goes on trial, immediately, for the war crimes she committed.
War crimes she is alleged to have committed - Innocent until proven guilty, another important principle of British justice. But yes, get her back, put her on trial. We have a legal system, let's use it. The situation she is in now makes a mockery of the rule of law and is an affront to all notions of natural justice.
She admitted to participating in war crimes in several interviews.
Morris she's got a Sophia Loren El Cid vibe going.
Topping, she's a 23 year old girl. You're (I think?) a middle aged man. OF COURSE she's quite hot. That's how human biology works. We're programmed to find that sort of thing attractive.
She's also being very well advised.
Which makes a significant, and good, change. It was dreadful 'advice' which got her into this mess in the first [place. Poor woman's had, and lost, three children. And assuming she had, and still has, some affection for her husband, AIUI he's in the pokey for God knows how long.
Mr. Boy, she joined a cabal of genocidal, child-crucifying, prisoner-burning religious zealots when it was fully known what they did.
She wasn't groomed by some unknown stranger acting kindly at first then turning coercive. You don't get 'groomed' to join the Nazis in 1946 and then claim to have no idea they were bad guys.
I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.
I understand the agreement is to be signed in the US next week with Boris travelling there and India and Japan invited to the ceremony
I really do not think our remainer colleagues have even started to understand what a devastating and profound blow this is, not just to France, but the EU itself
And the BBC may finally wake up to this and cover it
Big_G can I just point out that the BBC did cover this last night, and they continue to have it as their lead story on the website.
As I pointed out at the time. It's the lead on their website this morning, too. @Big_G_NorthWales perhaps relies too much on the assertions of PB posters ?
This poster has the news media on throughout the day and switched between Sky and the BBC
BETTING ANGLE: she'll be on the front cover of Vogue, or another glossy, within six months.
Just because she got a stylist, and did her hair and make-up, doesn’t mean that she stopped being a terrorist.
She says she regrets what she did as a 15-yr old. While I appreciate most 15yr olds don't express their rebellious nature by travelling to war zones to become a child bride of an fundamentalist terrorist group, but she was a child at the time.
And is seemingly repentant now.
She looks like Kamran Akmal in a wig
Jamie Bulger’s murderers were children too, it wouldn’t do for them to be on tv asking for a second chance or for people to say how handsome they are now.
Why not? If they were repentant? Or do we keep certain people in jail for ever? Or do we keep everyone in jail for ever? And who gets to override the courts' decision on the matter.
I do think reality is now dawning on the French of what Brexit really means for the standing of the EU (and by association France).
The UK brought a lot to the EU table and instead of accomodating the world's 5th largest economy, permanent UN security council member and major military power, the EU beancounters decided that losing the UK was a better choice than accomodating us. Now when key global decisions are being made the EU has got no presence, it's not in the room.
I have no love of the continual fracturing of the western alliance, however, it looks set to ramp up. I expect this new agreement will pull Japan, South Korea and India in as associate members fairly soon. I doubt any EU nation will be invited. Ultimately the US will want a very, very tightly closed circle on tech sharing. No single EU country can be trusted to keep the circle closed.
Too much , only so much bollox can be taken at this time of the morning. The amount of deluded jingoistic cretinous halfwits on here is breathtaking.
It must be very difficult to read for you but it is the reality of yesterday's announcement, hence the fury from the French today
Why would it be difficult for me to read. Anyone with an IQ above cretin would not care a toss. You deluded halfwitted jingoistic Little Britain Tories halfwits are totally barking. Do you ever reread your posts and hang your head in shame , knowing that people will be shaking their heads and saying "what are these fools on about". I am amazed at the absolute stupidity shown on here on a daily basis. MENTAL is all you could say.
Mental health is a subject a member of my family is seriously ill with and unlikely to recover for a very long time
Interesting that the French fulmination over the subs deal makes no mention of the UK. Is that 1) a snub because they don’t want to credit us with anything on the global stage or 2) a recognition that in Europe the UK is the only other serious military power in town and that’s a bridge not worth burning?
I know we build our own submarines, but have we made any sales to other countries? France's defence industry exists because countries want Western technology, but don't want to be dependent on the US.
When we got rid of the Upholder (*) class (as DuraAce mentions above), we went all-nuclear on our boats. Most countries cannot be bothered with nukes, and want diesel-electric instead. We couldn't offer them that. The French could not either; but offered to redesign their latest nuke attack sub to be diesel powered.
The Spanish S-80 class is probably not in the running due to the (ahem) interesting problems they've had with it. Like making it the first submarine that could sink but not surface again. So they lengthened it to add buoyancy, which added a whole host of other issues ...
It's interesting that Oz never really considered the UK for their Collins replacements because of their nuke power - despite their requirements being perfect for nuclear power, given the area they have to patrol.
(*) For train fans, these use the Paxman Valenta engines that originally powered the HST.
Valentine tanks surely win the prize for the first submersibles that can’t surface?
That's a bit unfair - Valentine DDs worked fairly well most of the time. Much better track record than many early submarines.
Morris she's got a Sophia Loren El Cid vibe going.
Topping, she's a 23 year old girl. You're (I think?) a middle aged man. OF COURSE she's quite hot. That's how human biology works. We're programmed to find that sort of thing attractive.
She's also being very well advised.
Yeah it's true. PB creepy maleness at its worst.
Soz.
No need to apologise - I don't think a line has been crossed (though we're waving at it). As long as your campaign for repatriation isn't based solely on hotness. I don't think that would wash.
For those of us who aren't part of your inner club & don't sit on here all day any chance of explaining who you're on about?
I was referring to @Casino_Royale, @Sandpit and @Philip_Thompson's desire to have Shamima Begum return to Britain to face British justice because she a Brit.
I stand with them.
Just to be clear: I haven't said any such thing.
If she was a naïve young teenager who fell in with the wrong crowd (as she portrays herself) then I might be inclined to give her 2-3 years in jail, a slap on the wrist and an ambassador for deradicalisation.
However, any interview with her shows her to be evasive, deceitful and manipulative. @Yokes will know the details but our intelligence services were very strong on the evidence against her and on not letting her back in, and stripping her of her British citizenship unanimously passed the Supreme Court - which is a very high test.
Venn diagram time. One circle, people who know the details of what our intelligence services know, other circle, people who give it large on open-access social media about how they know the details of what our intelligence services know.
Morris she's got a Sophia Loren El Cid vibe going.
Topping, she's a 23 year old girl. You're (I think?) a middle aged man. OF COURSE she's quite hot. That's how human biology works. We're programmed to find that sort of thing attractive.
She's also being very well advised.
Which makes a significant, and good, change. It was dreadful 'advice' which got her into this mess in the first [place. Poor woman's had, and lost, three children. And assuming she had, and still has, some affection for her husband, AIUI he's in the pokey for God knows how long.
I really don't think that cuts it. Regardless of what 'advice' she had, she made a decision to make a complex and difficult journey to join people who would kill people like us. Leaving aside the allegations of what she did whilst there, the journey and the decision to join the group was not a momentary aberration.
BETTING ANGLE: she'll be on the front cover of Vogue, or another glossy, within six months.
Just because she got a stylist, and did her hair and make-up, doesn’t mean that she stopped being a terrorist.
She says she regrets what she did as a 15-yr old. While I appreciate most 15yr olds don't express their rebellious nature by travelling to war zones to become a child bride of an fundamentalist terrorist group, but she was a child at the time.
And is seemingly repentant now.
She looks like Kamran Akmal in a wig
Jamie Bulger’s murderers were children too, it wouldn’t do for them to be on tv asking for a second chance or for people to say how handsome they are now.
Why not? If they were repentant? Or do we keep certain people in jail for ever? Or do we keep everyone in jail for ever? And who gets to override the courts' decision on the matter.
One of Jamie B's killers still appears to be a very disturbed man/nasty piece of work.
BETTING ANGLE: she'll be on the front cover of Vogue, or another glossy, within six months.
Just because she got a stylist, and did her hair and make-up, doesn’t mean that she stopped being a terrorist.
She says she regrets what she did as a 15-yr old. While I appreciate most 15yr olds don't express their rebellious nature by travelling to war zones to become a child bride of an fundamentalist terrorist group, but she was a child at the time.
And is seemingly repentant now.
She looks like Kamran Akmal in a wig
Jamie Bulger’s murderers were children too, it wouldn’t do for them to be on tv asking for a second chance or for people to say how handsome they are now.
Why not? If they were repentant? Or do we keep certain people in jail for ever? Or do we keep everyone in jail for ever? And who gets to override the courts' decision on the matter.
Comments
Also the inevitable end bit that the English are always just that bit better than the lowly Scots and so we should continue to tug our forelock and just be faux English, make you vomit.
As people will of course have remembered, I am currently rewatching The West Wing. Every damn episode could apply to today's issues (last night's episode: the futility of the "War on Drugs").
Stay cool. Don't lose your head over her.
The French will be seething but these things happen. They will have to suck it up (but will no doubt also look for ways to get their own back).
(I mean of course a mostly clothed, couture photo shoot, not the..er..other thing)
*I know there's renewed chatter on that, but I don't really see it happening beyond a bit of window dressing. The EU is too unfocused and diverse to really pull it off, I think, and it makes the EU look more like a superstate which will be subject to a lot of pushback (same reasons 'ever closer union' was just words)
Edit: And of course, we all love sticking it to the French - good that we can still annoy them even outside of the EU
https://inews.co.uk/news/john-whittingdale-public-sector-broadcasters-british-only-fools-fleabag-1201634
I've still no idea what it might mean in practice. I expect the new SoS will quietly bury it.
But, yes, she can sew me into a suicide vest any time.
Sky covered it live and have been heavily featuring it but the BBC coverage has been poor
The front pages are very different as they were going to press during the announcement but broadcast media are able to be far more flexible and do 'breaking news' all the time
This announcement has understandably upset EU supporters and those on the left as it has profound implications
The fucked up attitudes of the EU led to Brexit and aided in the EU being fucked up.
Brexit and the EU's fucked uppedness are entirely self enflicted by the EU's arrogance and delusions of grandeur.
As far as US/China is concerned, South Korea has always (to a greater or lesser extent) pursued 'strategic ambiguity'. And China is a near neighbour and very large trading partner.
They might be forced into a less ambiguous posture in the near future. China does not like that idea:
https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=315621
And is seemingly repentant now.
https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1438412491525083138?s=20
It's the lead on their website this morning, too.
@Big_G_NorthWales perhaps relies too much on the assertions of PB posters ?
Time for the ban hammer to start quivering?
Biggest story overnight - big ramifications, Europe sidelined, coup for Britain. We'll unpack it for you/ US builds bulwark against China with UK-Australia security pact
https://twitter.com/ChassNews/status/1438409277476061186?s=20
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-sophia-loren-el-cid-1961-directed-by-anthony-mann-89001002.html
Why would it be in the UK’s interest to let a Trojan Horse back into the country?
From having spent years living there I would point out that in Australia there is very much a deep strand of thought that they need to be able to defend themselves and not just rely upon the UK or the USA.
At least while I lived there in the 90s there is a major thought that Britain isn't entirely trusted downunder because of Gallipoli and the British "betrayal" in joining the EEC. No idea if Brexit has fully repaired that damage or not, probably not.
Similarly the USA isn't entirely trusted either as it's thought the USA will always look after their own interests first.
Plus Australia is quite isolated and has its own indigenous flaura and fauna.
So there is a major part to the Australian mindset that they need to be able to depend upon themselves. Not a chance they'll cancel having their own nuclear submarines for their own defence.
I presume they use language like "knife in the back" since that's exactly how they operate - they're just incandescent they've been beaten at their own game.
She will be mobbed going to Tescos to stare at the empty shelves. In fact her life would be very difficult which means perhaps she should go somewhere else.
And she was a child at the time. There are rehabilitation programmes for eg. child soldiers who perpetrated some horrific acts. So why not an ex-ISIS child bride?
Not our problem she can be repentant and live her life wherever else she wants but not here. She made her bed she can lie in it.
Let someone who doesn't think killing westerners is a good idea take her place in the country.
They have only themselves to blame. The good news is that they rarely make any decision so the problem is largely a hypothetical one.
However, I do feel that a) she was a 'child', albeit with the potential of being a very dangerous adult when she 'fled' and b) she appears to have no other nationality than British, and therefore she should be allowed to return to UK, although either under arrest or immediately arrested on return and subjected to thorough questioning.
And should be prepared for a long period of imprisonment or at least restraint and supervision.
She's also being very well advised.
Who's with me? Casino, Sandpit, PT for sure.
Morris I'll put you down as undecided.
We have some real momentum here.
Soz.
Fair dos. Can't be arsed though.
We've all made mistakes. Hers was a big one but she was a highly impressionable teenager. Time to rehabilitate, which would make for a far more powerful message as well.
I stand with them.
Interesting and I'm not wholly surprised. Johnson will hope to surf his goodwill before the real trouble kicks in with our public finances and lies about levelling up.
However, I expect him when it comes to it to dither and put it off.
Jamie Bulger’s murderers were children too, it wouldn’t do for them to be on tv asking for a second chance or for people to say how handsome they are now.
I'd have her back, but in prison for a prolonged period of time. I'm not sure whether that bit aligns with your views. The practical problem of course is whether there's realistic chance of convicting her if she returned.
*She has freely admitted to actively participating in crimes that are recognised as war crimes.
Maybe I am being too bed wetty after a poor night's sleep - just my opinion.
If she was a naïve young teenager who fell in with the wrong crowd (as she portrays herself) then I might be inclined to give her 2-3 years in jail, a slap on the wrist and an ambassador for deradicalisation.
However, any interview with her shows her to be evasive, deceitful and manipulative. @Yokes will know the details but our intelligence services were very strong on the evidence against her and on not letting her back in, and stripping her of her British citizenship unanimously passed the Supreme Court - which is a very high test.
"Brexit gave the United Kingdom the freedom to become more European." Discuss.
What would go in a grade A********* question?
(Prior to yesterday, I would have added a line about how this new grade had been recently introduced by the Schools Minister, Nick Gibb's brain preserved in a jar of formaldehyde. Hey ho.)
This forum really does come across as an old man's white club sometimes. Sorry but true. Don't take offence, it's just my impression and why I often keep off. It's not a place where a more gentle minded female feels particularly welcome.
Yes we can share technologies and enable Australia to have nuclear submarines but at the end of the day it is regional powers in the Far East and Oceania ie not only Australia but Japan and South Korea and maybe India who need to take the lead on containing Xi's China under US leadership. We can provide support but we remain a power in Europe and the Atlantic mainly, since the end of the British Empire we are not a global superpower and since the Hong Kong handover there has been no danger of China threatening British territory directly
Poor woman's had, and lost, three children. And assuming she had, and still has, some affection for her husband, AIUI he's in the pokey for God knows how long.
She wasn't groomed by some unknown stranger acting kindly at first then turning coercive. You don't get 'groomed' to join the Nazis in 1946 and then claim to have no idea they were bad guys.
Sky were covering it live, the BBC were not
How many in the intersection?
The other has vanished into normal society.
My understanding is that the potential issue is the western banks and finance institutions which hold Evergrande bonds