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YouGov finds little support for re-entering the Afghan war – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited August 17 in General
imageYouGov finds little support for re-entering the Afghan war – politicalbetting.com

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  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,974
    Test
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 1,821
    second test
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,632
    "Lily Cole: Model apologises for posing in a burka on Instagram"

    "Model, actress and activist Lily Cole has apologised for posting a picture of herself in a burka as a way to "embrace diversity" and promote her new book.

    "Critics said posing in the garment, worn by some Muslim women, did not help diversity and was ill-advised given the current unrest in Afghanistan.

    "Cole said she understood why the image upset people and wanted to "sincerely apologise for any offence caused"."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-58245304
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    edited August 17
    Not much of a surprise of course. Right or wrong decision to withdraw, and shambolic though it has been, pretty much everyone seems to see this as a new era. Re-entering was never going to be on the agenda.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,512
    edited August 17
    However Yougov also finds by 42% to 28% that most British voters think it was wrong to withdraw troops from Afghanistan.

    48% of Tory voters and 40% of Labour voters and 54% of LD voters think the decision to withdraw was wrong.
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1427300773331968003?s=20


    64% expect the threat of terrorism within western countries to increase now the Taliban have taken control of Afghanistan again
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1427653152225042433?s=20
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 1,821
    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,724
    The gender differences are interesting:

    Answer - Male - Female
    Should - 21 - 19
    Shouldn't - 54 - 41
    Don't know - 25 - 40

    As ever, women are much more likely to say don't know, but there are still a higher percentage of men than women saying should go back in.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,512

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    8% more Tory voters than Labour voters opposed the withdrawal, though yes LD voters both opposed the withdrawal the most and most want to re enter the war.

    74% of Tory voters however think the withdrawal increases the threat of terrorism in the UK
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654
    It would be madness to go back in. Leave well alone. Just stop them doing things from the outside.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,989
    How this plays out in terms of Western government popularity, depends very much on what happens in the coming days and weeks.

    Thankfully, from the point of view of Western governments, it appears that the Taliban are playing the PR game, and will let the Westerners all leave peacefully before they get on with doing what they do.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,512
    edited August 17
    Sandpit said:

    How this plays out in terms of Western government popularity, depends very much on what happens in the coming days and weeks.

    Thankfully, from the point of view of Western governments, it appears that the Taliban are playing the PR game, and will let the Westerners all leave peacefully before they get on with doing what they do.

    Of course they are for now, only once all western troops and officials are long gone from Afghanistan will the real test of whether they can be trusted or not be seen
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,493
    Endillion said:

    kle4 said:

    Not much of a surprise of course. Right or wrong decision to withdraw, and shambolic though it has been, pretty much everyone seems to see this as a new era. Re-entering was never going to be on the agenda.

    Come on, try to stay on topic for a bit. We don't need another Brexit-dominated thread.
    The final exit was indeed rushed and bungled in order to just get out and make good on a pledge to a public tired of the issue.

    But anyway you beat me to it.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,242
    Can we put a good chunk of the dks down as 'I don't really have a clue about Afghanistan and not having expressed a view on the place for X years would feel like a right dick expressing strong opinions on the subject now'?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    How this plays out in terms of Western government popularity, depends very much on what happens in the coming days and weeks.

    Thankfully, from the point of view of Western governments, it appears that the Taliban are playing the PR game, and will let the Westerners all leave peacefully before they get on with doing what they do.

    Of course they are for now, only once all western troops and officials are long gone from Afghanistan will the real test of whether they can be trusted or not be seen
    I think that was implicit in what he said. I don't think anyone is fooled by a savvy media operation, but it will very much help the West, even as it has been humiliated, if the Taliban play the game until attention moves on.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 8,429
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    How this plays out in terms of Western government popularity, depends very much on what happens in the coming days and weeks.

    Thankfully, from the point of view of Western governments, it appears that the Taliban are playing the PR game, and will let the Westerners all leave peacefully before they get on with doing what they do.

    Of course they are for now, only once all western troops and officials are long gone from Afghanistan will the real test of whether they can be trusted or not be seen
    "whether they can be trusted"? !!! WTF?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,316
    HYUFD said:

    However Yougov also finds by 42% to 28% that most British voters think it was wrong to withdraw troops from Afghanistan.

    48% of Tory voters and 40% of Labour voters and 54% of LD voters think the decision to withdraw was wrong.
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1427300773331968003?s=20


    64% expect the threat of terrorism within western countries to increase now the Taliban have taken control of Afghanistan again
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1427653152225042433?s=20

    I really do not understand why you repeat this post, but this time miss out the bit you included last time

    'However, by 47% to 20% voters do not want to re- enter the war now to restore the deposed government'

    Which is the salient point and the topic of this thread

  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,999

    Can we put a good chunk of the dks down as 'I don't really have a clue about Afghanistan and not having expressed a view on the place for X years would feel like a right dick expressing strong opinions on the subject now'?

    Yes, and not surprisingly a much higher percentage of the DKs are women. Men, of course, know everything.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,220

    Can we put a good chunk of the dks down as 'I don't really have a clue about Afghanistan and not having expressed a view on the place for X years would feel like a right dick expressing strong opinions on the subject now'?

    Oh, come on. If PB is a guide, then not having a clue about a topic is no reason to feel a dick about expressing strong opinions on the topic.

    For instance, the way some Scottish Nationalists opine on the unique evils of England and the English ... ;)
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,724
    edited August 17
    John Sopel (US correspondent) on the six o'clock news. I reckon that's the first time I've seen him on the BBC since January.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,316

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    I voted remain but a conservative who fully opposes any further intervention in Afghanistan
  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,731
    kle4 said:

    Not much of a surprise of course. Right or wrong decision to withdraw, and shambolic though it has been, pretty much everyone seems to see this as a new era. Re-entering was never going to be on the agenda.

    Afghanistan or Brexit?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,999
    tlg86 said:

    John Sopel (US correspondent) on the six o'clock news. I reckon that's the first time I've seen him on the BBC since January.

    He was on Newsnight last night.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,242
    kinabalu said:

    Endillion said:

    kle4 said:

    Not much of a surprise of course. Right or wrong decision to withdraw, and shambolic though it has been, pretty much everyone seems to see this as a new era. Re-entering was never going to be on the agenda.

    Come on, try to stay on topic for a bit. We don't need another Brexit-dominated thread.
    The final exit was indeed rushed and bungled in order to just get out and make good on a pledge to a public tired of the issue.

    But anyway you beat me to it.
    Arlene and the DUP despairingly running after BJ's big Brexit bird as it's about to take off..

    'But you OWE US!'
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 2,999
    edited August 17

    It would be madness to go back in. Leave well alone. Just stop them doing things from the outside.

    Afghanistan or Brexit?
    Beaten to it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,512

    HYUFD said:

    However Yougov also finds by 42% to 28% that most British voters think it was wrong to withdraw troops from Afghanistan.

    48% of Tory voters and 40% of Labour voters and 54% of LD voters think the decision to withdraw was wrong.
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1427300773331968003?s=20


    64% expect the threat of terrorism within western countries to increase now the Taliban have taken control of Afghanistan again
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1427653152225042433?s=20

    I really do not understand why you repeat this post, but this time miss out the bit you included last time

    'However, by 47% to 20% voters do not want to re- enter the war now to restore the deposed government'

    Which is the salient point and the topic of this thread

    For now, the fact the same poll also shows most voters opposed the withdrawal in the first place and most expect it to lead to a return of terrorism is also equally significant. I have no control over which one OGH happened to highlight in the thread.

    Certainly if terrorists return to Afghanistan and use it as a base to attack us those numbers about not intervening again would change pretty quickly
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,316
    HYUFD said:

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    8% more Tory voters than Labour voters opposed the withdrawal, though yes LD voters both opposed the withdrawal the most and most want to re enter the war.

    74% of Tory voters however think the withdrawal increases the threat of terrorism in the UK
    Are you real saying the lib dems want to re-enter the war in Afghanistan

    I expect there will be a strong rebuttal coming your way
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,242

    Can we put a good chunk of the dks down as 'I don't really have a clue about Afghanistan and not having expressed a view on the place for X years would feel like a right dick expressing strong opinions on the subject now'?

    Oh, come on. If PB is a guide, then not having a clue about a topic is no reason to feel a dick about expressing strong opinions on the topic.

    For instance, the way some Scottish Nationalists opine on the unique evils of England and the English ... ;)
    I see you bleating about it.
    Me, not so much.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 8,429

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    I voted remain but a conservative who fully opposes any further intervention in Afghanistan
    If they resumed training Islamist terrorists to attack the West? Should we then say "oh do carry on, we shall just sit on our hands"?
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,791
    Very consistent view across the party/Brexit divides too.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 8,429

    Can we put a good chunk of the dks down as 'I don't really have a clue about Afghanistan and not having expressed a view on the place for X years would feel like a right dick expressing strong opinions on the subject now'?

    Oh, come on. If PB is a guide, then not having a clue about a topic is no reason to feel a dick about expressing strong opinions on the topic.

    For instance, the way some Scottish Nationalists opine on the unique evils of England and the English ... ;)
    I see you bleating about it.
    Me, not so much.
    Credit to you, you clearly delude yourself that you keep your Anglophobia in the closet, but the doors can't hold it in that well.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,280
    Personally I would favour taking out any new training camps with a tactical nuke.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,632

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    I voted remain but a conservative who fully opposes any further intervention in Afghanistan
    If they resumed training Islamist terrorists to attack the West? Should we then say "oh do carry on, we shall just sit on our hands"?
    We can always drop you behind enemy lines. If you really want it...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,242

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    Appeasement a fine party tradition of course.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 8,429
    DavidL said:

    Personally I would favour taking out any new training camps with a tactical nuke.

    That would certainly be a statement, but there are some fairly terrifying bombs that make that infringement of nuclear non-proliferation unnecessary
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,316
    edited August 17
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    However Yougov also finds by 42% to 28% that most British voters think it was wrong to withdraw troops from Afghanistan.

    48% of Tory voters and 40% of Labour voters and 54% of LD voters think the decision to withdraw was wrong.
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1427300773331968003?s=20


    64% expect the threat of terrorism within western countries to increase now the Taliban have taken control of Afghanistan again
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1427653152225042433?s=20

    I really do not understand why you repeat this post, but this time miss out the bit you included last time

    'However, by 47% to 20% voters do not want to re- enter the war now to restore the deposed government'

    Which is the salient point and the topic of this thread

    For now, the fact the same poll also shows most voters opposed the withdrawal in the first place and most expect it to lead to a return of terrorism is also equally significant. I have no control over which one OGH happened to highlight in the thread.

    Certainly if terrorists return to Afghanistan and use it as a base to attack us those numbers about not intervening again would change pretty quickly
    You have control over deleting parts of your post when repeating them to try to mislead into your view

    The bit you deleted was the salient bit

    And you have since declared the lib dems want to re-enter into war in Afghanistan

    You really are someone who considers yourself infallible in your views
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 8,429

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    I voted remain but a conservative who fully opposes any further intervention in Afghanistan
    If they resumed training Islamist terrorists to attack the West? Should we then say "oh do carry on, we shall just sit on our hands"?
    We can always drop you behind enemy lines. If you really want it...
    I am a bit old for that sort of thing. A GBU-43/B Massive Ordnance Air Blast might be more effective.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,220

    DavidL said:

    Personally I would favour taking out any new training camps with a tactical nuke.

    That seems a bit harsh. Even the England football team? Boy Scouts?
    How about the National Skills Academy for Rail? A training camp(us) for trains?

    https://www.nsar.co.uk/
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,632

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    I voted remain but a conservative who fully opposes any further intervention in Afghanistan
    If they resumed training Islamist terrorists to attack the West? Should we then say "oh do carry on, we shall just sit on our hands"?
    We can always drop you behind enemy lines. If you really want it...
    I am a bit old for that sort of thing. A GBU-43/B Massive Ordnance Air Blast might be more effective.
    Sgt. Sunil: Alright, sweethearts, you're a team and there's nothin' to worry about. We come here, and we're gonna conquer, and we're gonna kick some, is that understood? That's what we're gonna do, sweethearts, we are going to go and get some. All right, people, on the ready line! Are ya lean?

    PB Tories: Yeah!

    Sgt. Sunil: Are ya mean?

    PB Tories: Yeah!

    Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU?

    PB Tories: Lean and mean!

    Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU? @HYUFD! @Leon! Get on the ready line, PB Tories, get some today! Get on the ready line! Move it out! Move it out, goddammit! Get hot! One, two, three, four! Get out, get out, get out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! One, two, three, four, five, six, seven! Aaarrrrr, absolutely badasses! Let's pack 'em in! Get in there!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,316

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    I voted remain but a conservative who fully opposes any further intervention in Afghanistan
    If they resumed training Islamist terrorists to attack the West? Should we then say "oh do carry on, we shall just sit on our hands"?
    We have to ensure our intelligence and security agencies are alert to these threats, but no I do not see further UK military intervention as justified
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,280

    DavidL said:

    Personally I would favour taking out any new training camps with a tactical nuke.

    That seems a bit harsh. Even the England football team? Boy Scouts?
    Boy Scouts definitely. England football team, depends on how many hours they spend practicing penalties.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,493

    Can we put a good chunk of the dks down as 'I don't really have a clue about Afghanistan and not having expressed a view on the place for X years would feel like a right dick expressing strong opinions on the subject now'?

    These are the real heroes for me.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,512
    edited August 17

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    I voted remain but a conservative who fully opposes any further intervention in Afghanistan
    If they resumed training Islamist terrorists to attack the West? Should we then say "oh do carry on, we shall just sit on our hands"?
    We have to ensure our intelligence and security agencies are alert to these threats, but no I do not see further UK military intervention as justified
    It does not matter how brilliant our intelligence services are, if Al Qaeda and other jihadi militants return to Afghanistan and reestablish training camps etc eventually some of them will get through and launch another major terrorist atrocity on a big UK or other western city
  • TimTTimT Posts: 4,731

    DavidL said:

    Personally I would favour taking out any new training camps with a tactical nuke.

    That seems a bit harsh. Even the England football team? Boy Scouts?
    No need to take out the England cricket training camp. They take themselves out.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,316
    HYUFD said:

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    I voted remain but a conservative who fully opposes any further intervention in Afghanistan
    If they resumed training Islamist terrorists to attack the West? Should we then say "oh do carry on, we shall just sit on our hands"?
    We have to ensure our intelligence and security agencies are alert to these threats, but no I do not see further UK military intervention as justified
    It does not matter how brilliant our intelligence services are, if Al Qaeda and other jihadi militants return to Afghanistan eventually some of them will get through and launch another major terrorist atrocity on a big UK or other western city
    And your answer is an indefinite occupation of Afghanistan
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,632
    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Personally I would favour taking out any new training camps with a tactical nuke.

    That seems a bit harsh. Even the England football team? Boy Scouts?
    No need to take out the England cricket training camp. They take themselves out.
    Indeed, they collapsed faster than the (ex-)Afghan government!
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 8,429

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    Appeasement a fine party tradition of course.
    As is SNP collusion with hostile foreign powers and thinking that jackboots and swastikas are de rigueur fashion items
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,280

    DavidL said:

    Personally I would favour taking out any new training camps with a tactical nuke.

    That would certainly be a statement, but there are some fairly terrifying bombs that make that infringement of nuclear non-proliferation unnecessary
    I would want to make a statement. And having a bit of Afghanistan that glowed in the dark would make that.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 8,429

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    I voted remain but a conservative who fully opposes any further intervention in Afghanistan
    If they resumed training Islamist terrorists to attack the West? Should we then say "oh do carry on, we shall just sit on our hands"?
    We can always drop you behind enemy lines. If you really want it...
    I am a bit old for that sort of thing. A GBU-43/B Massive Ordnance Air Blast might be more effective.
    Sgt. Sunil: Alright, sweethearts, you're a team and there's nothin' to worry about. We come here, and we're gonna conquer, and we're gonna kick some, is that understood? That's what we're gonna do, sweethearts, we are going to go and get some. All right, people, on the ready line! Are ya lean?

    PB Tories: Yeah!

    Sgt. Sunil: Are ya mean?

    PB Tories: Yeah!

    Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU?

    PB Tories: Lean and mean!

    Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU? @HYUFD! @Leon! Get on the ready line, PB Tories, get some today! Get on the ready line! Move it out! Move it out, goddammit! Get hot! One, two, three, four! Get out, get out, get out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! One, two, three, four, five, six, seven! Aaarrrrr, absolutely badasses! Let's pack 'em in! Get in there!
    OK!
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,302
    edited August 17
    kjh said:

    Haven't posted anything on Afghanistan. Very depressing all around. No point in commenting on Trump, but I am very, very disappointed in Biden. I would be even more depressed if I had been, or my children had been, involved in the military, particular those wounded or killed.

    Although we are impotent really I also don't think this reflects well on us. Delays in helping those who helped us which will almost certainly cause some to die because their paperwork wasn't quite right, the scholarship scandal (now reversed). And did Boris really go on holiday on Saturday? I really hope that is not an accurate report.

    The response from ex-military and military personnel seems very consistent and very sad.

    +1

    Some of the interviews with veterans have been heartbreaking. So many years in the primes of their lives, wasted. Losing friends and seeing others maimed, and all the terrible things they have seen. All for nothing.

    Who would be happy to see their children serving in the armed forces, serving under these dunderheids?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,280
    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Personally I would favour taking out any new training camps with a tactical nuke.

    That seems a bit harsh. Even the England football team? Boy Scouts?
    No need to take out the England cricket training camp. They take themselves out.
    They train???
    Then why do they bat like muppets?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,484

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    Appeasement a fine party tradition of course.
    As is SNP collusion with hostile foreign powers and thinking that jackboots and swastikas are de rigueur fashion items
    You been let out again , treatment obviously did not work.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,242

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    Appeasement a fine party tradition of course.
    As is SNP collusion with hostile foreign powers and thinking that jackboots and swastikas are de rigueur fashion items
    Waehae, even more predictable than your endless scampering after my posts!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,493

    It would be madness to go back in. Leave well alone. Just stop them doing things from the outside.

    Afghanistan or Brexit?
    Beaten to it.
    Yes I was 2nd in with this and you were a poor 4th. Didn't even podium.
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,476

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    I voted remain but a conservative who fully opposes any further intervention in Afghanistan
    If they resumed training Islamist terrorists to attack the West? Should we then say "oh do carry on, we shall just sit on our hands"?
    We can always drop you behind enemy lines. If you really want it...
    I am a bit old for that sort of thing. A GBU-43/B Massive Ordnance Air Blast might be more effective.
    Sgt. Sunil: Alright, sweethearts, you're a team and there's nothin' to worry about. We come here, and we're gonna conquer, and we're gonna kick some, is that understood? That's what we're gonna do, sweethearts, we are going to go and get some. All right, people, on the ready line! Are ya lean?

    PB Tories: Yeah!

    Sgt. Sunil: Are ya mean?

    PB Tories: Yeah!

    Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU?

    PB Tories: Lean and mean!

    Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU? @HYUFD! @Leon! Get on the ready line, PB Tories, get some today! Get on the ready line! Move it out! Move it out, goddammit! Get hot! One, two, three, four! Get out, get out, get out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! One, two, three, four, five, six, seven! Aaarrrrr, absolutely badasses! Let's pack 'em in! Get in there!

    Gunners Sergeant Sunil !
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,484

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    I voted remain but a conservative who fully opposes any further intervention in Afghanistan
    If they resumed training Islamist terrorists to attack the West? Should we then say "oh do carry on, we shall just sit on our hands"?
    We can always drop you behind enemy lines. If you really want it...
    Think he has been dropped on his head enough times already
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 8,429
    malcolmg said:

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    Appeasement a fine party tradition of course.
    As is SNP collusion with hostile foreign powers and thinking that jackboots and swastikas are de rigueur fashion items
    You been let out again , treatment obviously did not work.
    Good attempt Malc, almost humorous by your standards. How is the anger management course going?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,654

    It would be madness to go back in. Leave well alone. Just stop them doing things from the outside.

    Afghanistan or Brexit?
    Beaten to it.
    Both!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    Appeasement a fine party tradition of course.
    As is SNP collusion with hostile foreign powers and thinking that jackboots and swastikas are de rigueur fashion items
    Wrong party. Vide A. Ramsay and Sempill.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 34,484
    edited August 17

    malcolmg said:

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    Appeasement a fine party tradition of course.
    As is SNP collusion with hostile foreign powers and thinking that jackboots and swastikas are de rigueur fashion items
    You been let out again , treatment obviously did not work.
    Good attempt Malc, almost humorous by your standards. How is the anger management course going?
    Still throwing darts at the massive bellend that is an accurate portrait of you.
    PS: Must depart I have some live plants to water
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,451

    kjh said:

    Haven't posted anything on Afghanistan. Very depressing all around. No point in commenting on Trump, but I am very, very disappointed in Biden. I would be even more depressed if I had been, or my children had been, involved in the military, particular those wounded or killed.

    Although we are impotent really I also don't think this reflects well on us. Delays in helping those who helped us which will almost certainly cause some to die because their paperwork wasn't quite right, the scholarship scandal (now reversed). And did Boris really go on holiday on Saturday? I really hope that is not an accurate report.

    The response from ex-military and military personnel seems very consistent and very sad.

    +1

    Some of the interviews with veterans have been heartbreaking. So many years in the primes of their lives, wasted. Losing friends and seeing others maimed, and all the terrible things they have seen. All for nothing.

    Who would be happy to see their children serving in the armed forces, serving under these dunderheids?
    Gosh I posted that 8 hours ago. Very impressed someone reads anything I wrote that is that old.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    DavidL said:

    Personally I would favour taking out any new training camps with a tactical nuke.

    That seems a bit harsh. Even the England football team? Boy Scouts?
    Perhaps the Cricket training camp could be hit by tactics at least.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,512

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    Appeasement a fine party tradition of course.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/may/09/highereducation.humanities
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566

    kjh said:

    Haven't posted anything on Afghanistan. Very depressing all around. No point in commenting on Trump, but I am very, very disappointed in Biden. I would be even more depressed if I had been, or my children had been, involved in the military, particular those wounded or killed.

    Although we are impotent really I also don't think this reflects well on us. Delays in helping those who helped us which will almost certainly cause some to die because their paperwork wasn't quite right, the scholarship scandal (now reversed). And did Boris really go on holiday on Saturday? I really hope that is not an accurate report.

    The response from ex-military and military personnel seems very consistent and very sad.

    +1

    Some of the interviews with veterans have been heartbreaking. So many years in the primes of their lives, wasted. Losing friends and seeing others maimed, and all the terrible things they have seen. All for nothing.

    Who would be happy to see their children serving in the armed forces, serving under these dunderheids?
    'These dunderheids' presumably referring to the politicoes. But yes.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,493
    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Haven't posted anything on Afghanistan. Very depressing all around. No point in commenting on Trump, but I am very, very disappointed in Biden. I would be even more depressed if I had been, or my children had been, involved in the military, particular those wounded or killed.

    Although we are impotent really I also don't think this reflects well on us. Delays in helping those who helped us which will almost certainly cause some to die because their paperwork wasn't quite right, the scholarship scandal (now reversed). And did Boris really go on holiday on Saturday? I really hope that is not an accurate report.

    The response from ex-military and military personnel seems very consistent and very sad.

    +1

    Some of the interviews with veterans have been heartbreaking. So many years in the primes of their lives, wasted. Losing friends and seeing others maimed, and all the terrible things they have seen. All for nothing.

    Who would be happy to see their children serving in the armed forces, serving under these dunderheids?
    Gosh I posted that 8 hours ago. Very impressed someone reads anything I wrote that is that old.
    You're like a fine wine.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    Now everyone's an XYZ expert for 15 minutes.

    Elliot Williams
    @elliotcwilliams
    17h
    The sudden emergence of Deep Down Everyone Truly Is An Expert About Afghanistan Twitter is really making me miss the golden days of Armchair Epidemiologist Twitter

    It's not an unfair point really, but I do find it a bit silly to act like it is not perfectly ordinary for people to opine with confidence about things about which they know little. Everyone does it to a greater or lesser degree, and we can have a good laugh at particularly clueless examples, but some of the laughter seems to be at the very concept and given everyone has at one time ventured an opinion without being an expert it seems over the top.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566
    HYUFD said:

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    Appeasement a fine party tradition of course.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/may/09/highereducation.humanities
    Dismissed as tdrivial, as your very source points out. Unlike the treason by Tories and the Establishment. Archibald Ramsay wasn't high enough so he got banged up.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,242
    HYUFD said:

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    Appeasement a fine party tradition of course.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/may/09/highereducation.humanities
    2001.

    Cannae move for wee Pavlov's doggies..
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,280
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    Appeasement a fine party tradition of course.
    As is SNP collusion with hostile foreign powers and thinking that jackboots and swastikas are de rigueur fashion items
    You been let out again , treatment obviously did not work.
    Good attempt Malc, almost humorous by your standards. How is the anger management course going?
    Still throwing darts at the massive bellend that is an accurate portrait of you.
    PS: Must depart I have some live plants to water
    Triffids?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,061
    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566
    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Indeed.

    On a happier note, how was the Pnyx?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,512
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    Appeasement a fine party tradition of course.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/may/09/highereducation.humanities
    Dismissed as tdrivial, as your very source points out. Unlike the treason by Tories and the Establishment. Archibald Ramsay wasn't high enough so he got banged up.
    It was the Tory PM at the time, Winston Churchill who led opposition to the Nazis once war broke out along with the Labour leader Attlee.

    Meanwhile some Scottish nationalists were seeking an alliance with the Nazis against Britain as late as 1943 and in Ireland De Valera signed the book of condolence for Hitler at the end of the war
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566

    HYUFD said:

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    Appeasement a fine party tradition of course.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/may/09/highereducation.humanities
    2001.

    Cannae move for wee Pavlov's doggies..
    You'd think they had never heard of staunch Tories such as Archibald Ramsay. Even Donaldson was released after a few weeks when they realised someone had been fibbing.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,280
    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    There will be mass executions. It’s what they do when they are not raping children
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 8,429
    Carnyx said:

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    Appeasement a fine party tradition of course.
    As is SNP collusion with hostile foreign powers and thinking that jackboots and swastikas are de rigueur fashion items
    Wrong party. Vide A. Ramsay and Sempill.
    I think you will find Arthur Donaldson was once a leader of the SNP and was a fascist sympathiser (or at least espoused the benefits to the cause of Britain losing to the Nazis), as was Andrew Dewar Gibb QC. Divisive nationalism is only a short step from fascism. It is an inconvenient truth for nationalists of all stripes
  • kjhkjh Posts: 4,451
    kinabalu said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Haven't posted anything on Afghanistan. Very depressing all around. No point in commenting on Trump, but I am very, very disappointed in Biden. I would be even more depressed if I had been, or my children had been, involved in the military, particular those wounded or killed.

    Although we are impotent really I also don't think this reflects well on us. Delays in helping those who helped us which will almost certainly cause some to die because their paperwork wasn't quite right, the scholarship scandal (now reversed). And did Boris really go on holiday on Saturday? I really hope that is not an accurate report.

    The response from ex-military and military personnel seems very consistent and very sad.

    +1

    Some of the interviews with veterans have been heartbreaking. So many years in the primes of their lives, wasted. Losing friends and seeing others maimed, and all the terrible things they have seen. All for nothing.

    Who would be happy to see their children serving in the armed forces, serving under these dunderheids?
    Gosh I posted that 8 hours ago. Very impressed someone reads anything I wrote that is that old.
    You're like a fine wine.
    It would be churlish not to like that wouldn't it?

    Or do you mean I'm old and dusty?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    Appeasement a fine party tradition of course.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/may/09/highereducation.humanities
    Dismissed as tdrivial, as your very source points out. Unlike the treason by Tories and the Establishment. Archibald Ramsay wasn't high enough so he got banged up.
    It was the Tory PM at the time, Winston Churchill who led opposition to the Nazis once war broke out along with the Labour leader Attlee.

    Meanwhile some Scottish nationalists were seeking an alliance with the Nazis against Britain as late as 1943 and in Ireland De Valera signed the book of condolence for Hitler at the end of the war
    We've been through this before. Winston Churchill was PM on the outbreak of war? Revolutionary if true (no pun intended). And unlike the Tories of Scotland, they didn't find it worth arresting and jailing any nationalists.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,632
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    Appeasement a fine party tradition of course.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/may/09/highereducation.humanities
    Dismissed as tdrivial, as your very source points out. Unlike the treason by Tories and the Establishment. Archibald Ramsay wasn't high enough so he got banged up.
    It was the Tory PM at the time, Winston Churchill who led opposition to the Nazis once war broke out along with the Labour leader Attlee.
    Chamberlain was PM at the time war broke out!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,566

    Carnyx said:

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    Appeasement a fine party tradition of course.
    As is SNP collusion with hostile foreign powers and thinking that jackboots and swastikas are de rigueur fashion items
    Wrong party. Vide A. Ramsay and Sempill.
    I think you will find Arthur Donaldson was once a leader of the SNP and was a fascist sympathiser (or at least espoused the benefits to the cause of Britain losing to the Nazis), as was Andrew Dewar Gibb QC. Divisive nationalism is only a short step from fascism. It is an inconvenient truth for nationalists of all stripes
    Donaldson is dealt with elsewhere.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    There will be mass executions. It’s what they do when they are not raping children
    Well, there's only so many hours in the day and one does need variety.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Personally I would favour taking out any new training camps with a tactical nuke.

    That seems a bit harsh. Even the England football team? Boy Scouts?
    No need to take out the England cricket training camp. They take themselves out.
    They train???
    Then why do they bat like muppets?
    That comment is offensive to the legacy of Jim Henson!
    I'm not sure Kermit was reknowned for the orthodoxy of his forward defensive stroke in fairness.
  • paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 1,821
    HYUFD said:

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    I voted remain but a conservative who fully opposes any further intervention in Afghanistan
    If they resumed training Islamist terrorists to attack the West? Should we then say "oh do carry on, we shall just sit on our hands"?
    We have to ensure our intelligence and security agencies are alert to these threats, but no I do not see further UK military intervention as justified
    It does not matter how brilliant our intelligence services are, if Al Qaeda and other jihadi militants return to Afghanistan and reestablish training camps etc eventually some of them will get through and launch another major terrorist atrocity on a big UK or other western city
    Or they could organise it in dewsbury like the last one. Or as wfh has shown us you dont even have to be in the same place.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,873
    Re-enter what war ?

    The Afghans seem to have chosen the Taliban.

    Regrettable but the reality.

    Now the West could overthrow the Taliban again.

    But that's a different issue.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,624

    Re-enter what war ?

    The Afghans seem to have chosen the Taliban.

    Regrettable but the reality.

    Now the West could overthrow the Taliban again.

    But that's a different issue.

    Chair of Defence Select Committee says that this not over by a long way: civil war will develop.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,577
    Sandpit said:

    How this plays out in terms of Western government popularity, depends very much on what happens in the coming days and weeks.

    Thankfully, from the point of view of Western governments, it appears that the Taliban are playing the PR game, and will let the Westerners all leave peacefully before they get on with doing what they do.

    The Taliban need money, and the drug trade isn't paying what it used to (thanks to competition from China).

    It is therefore entirely possible that - while life will be pretty miserable for many ordinary Afghanis - this has limited impact beyond the initial news cycle.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,280
    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Personally I would favour taking out any new training camps with a tactical nuke.

    That seems a bit harsh. Even the England football team? Boy Scouts?
    No need to take out the England cricket training camp. They take themselves out.
    They train???
    Then why do they bat like muppets?
    That comment is offensive to the legacy of Jim Henson!
    I'm not sure Kermit was reknowned for the orthodoxy of his forward defensive stroke in fairness.
    He was better than pretty much anyone in the English batting line up except Root.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,873
    Re covid cases.

    I get the impression that the areas having increases are those which might have had fewer previous cases - Scotland, N Ireland, rural areas - or perhaps those with much lower levels of vaccination eg parts of London.

    If so would this be a 'gap filling' situation.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,755
    China urges the U.S. to stop official contacts, arms sales to, and military ties with Taiwan - Chinese MFA

    https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202108/1231712.shtml
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,493
    kjh said:

    kinabalu said:

    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Haven't posted anything on Afghanistan. Very depressing all around. No point in commenting on Trump, but I am very, very disappointed in Biden. I would be even more depressed if I had been, or my children had been, involved in the military, particular those wounded or killed.

    Although we are impotent really I also don't think this reflects well on us. Delays in helping those who helped us which will almost certainly cause some to die because their paperwork wasn't quite right, the scholarship scandal (now reversed). And did Boris really go on holiday on Saturday? I really hope that is not an accurate report.

    The response from ex-military and military personnel seems very consistent and very sad.

    +1

    Some of the interviews with veterans have been heartbreaking. So many years in the primes of their lives, wasted. Losing friends and seeing others maimed, and all the terrible things they have seen. All for nothing.

    Who would be happy to see their children serving in the armed forces, serving under these dunderheids?
    Gosh I posted that 8 hours ago. Very impressed someone reads anything I wrote that is that old.
    You're like a fine wine.
    It would be churlish not to like that wouldn't it?

    Or do you mean I'm old and dusty?
    🙂 as if
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 903
    When I left to make the dinner a while ago the discussion was actually on topic. How on Earth did it get back to the zillionth stupid mudslinging fest over another place?

    Oh well, never mind. Just about the only good news about the Afghan debacle is it looks as if I may have been right when I said the Taliban had concluded it was in their interest to let the foreigners go in peace. The bad news is that I seem to recall seeing on the news earlier today that the RAF had so far managed to get 300 people out through the airport. Apparently there are 6,000 UK citizens and eligible Afghans awaiting rescue. This is far from ideal...
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 8,429
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    Appeasement a fine party tradition of course.
    As is SNP collusion with hostile foreign powers and thinking that jackboots and swastikas are de rigueur fashion items
    Wrong party. Vide A. Ramsay and Sempill.
    I think you will find Arthur Donaldson was once a leader of the SNP and was a fascist sympathiser (or at least espoused the benefits to the cause of Britain losing to the Nazis), as was Andrew Dewar Gibb QC. Divisive nationalism is only a short step from fascism. It is an inconvenient truth for nationalists of all stripes
    Donaldson is dealt with elsewhere.
    Might be worth reading into this a little more. MI5 perhaps had good reasons for recommending his release.

    I think it might be a little more plausible if nationalists accepted they have an inglorious past in relationship to fascism, just as some Tories did and even the royal family. To try and claim that it did not exist is just denial and an attempt to rewrite history.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 41,577

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    I voted remain but a conservative who fully opposes any further intervention in Afghanistan
    If they resumed training Islamist terrorists to attack the West? Should we then say "oh do carry on, we shall just sit on our hands"?
    Well, we could drone strike the hydroelectric dams that provide pretty much all of Afghanistan's electricity.

    Since 2000, the West's ability to reach out and bomb people in places in the middle of nowhere has increased dramatically.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,061
    edited August 17
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Indeed.

    On a happier note, how was the Pnyx?
    I’m going tomorrow! I was kind of exhausted after the historical epiphanies of yesterday. Properly drained, emotionally. And it wasn’t just the ouzo
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,873

    Re-enter what war ?

    The Afghans seem to have chosen the Taliban.

    Regrettable but the reality.

    Now the West could overthrow the Taliban again.

    But that's a different issue.

    Chair of Defence Select Committee says that this not over by a long way: civil war will develop.
    Very likely, its what happens in Afghanistan.

    The Taliban will likely prove incompetent and corrupt in government.

    There will be various political, regional and ethnic factions in disputes.

    Foreign governments will meddle and bribe.

    And fighting starts somewhere.

    Pretty certain I'd say but all in the future.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,989
    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Personally I would favour taking out any new training camps with a tactical nuke.

    That seems a bit harsh. Even the England football team? Boy Scouts?
    No need to take out the England cricket training camp. They take themselves out.
    They train???
    Then why do they bat like muppets?
    That comment is offensive to the legacy of Jim Henson!
    I'm not sure Kermit was reknowned for the orthodoxy of his forward defensive stroke in fairness.
    He’d still have scored more runs yesterday than Burns and Sibley!
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 6,498
    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Indeed.

    On a happier note, how was the Pnyx?
    I’m going tomorrow! I was kind of exhausted after the historical epiphanies of yesterday. Properly drained, emotionally. And it wasn’t just the ouzo
    Very ancient Greek aristocracy of you.
This discussion has been closed.