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YouGov finds little support for re-entering the Afghan war – politicalbetting.com

24

Comments

  • TimTTimT Posts: 5,097
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    How this plays out in terms of Western government popularity, depends very much on what happens in the coming days and weeks.

    Thankfully, from the point of view of Western governments, it appears that the Taliban are playing the PR game, and will let the Westerners all leave peacefully before they get on with doing what they do.

    The Taliban need money, and the drug trade isn't paying what it used to (thanks to competition from China).

    It is therefore entirely possible that - while life will be pretty miserable for many ordinary Afghanis - this has limited impact beyond the initial news cycle.
    Did you hear the NPR piece (on Marketplace, I think), where they looked at the Taliban's revenue sources. Taxation now seems to be the biggest source - both the traditional taxation on trade, and the protection taxation of infrastructure such as cell phone towers.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 1,569
    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    TimT said:

    DavidL said:

    Personally I would favour taking out any new training camps with a tactical nuke.

    That seems a bit harsh. Even the England football team? Boy Scouts?
    No need to take out the England cricket training camp. They take themselves out.
    They train???
    Then why do they bat like muppets?
    That comment is offensive to the legacy of Jim Henson!
    I'm not sure Kermit was reknowned for the orthodoxy of his forward defensive stroke in fairness.
    Yes, Kermit is obviously a fast bowler with those long gangly arms.

    I'm not so sure about test match play, but Animal and Miss Piggy would make a great opening partnership in T20. Impetuous, yes, but with a bit of luck they could smash a hatful of sixes before being skittled.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,236

    Re-enter what war ?

    The Afghans seem to have chosen the Taliban.

    Regrettable but the reality.

    Now the West could overthrow the Taliban again.

    But that's a different issue.

    While I doubt if re-entering the war is in any way practical, I would not say the Afghans have chosen the Taliban. They have support certainly, but the rest have little option but to bow to the inevitable.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,944

    Re-enter what war ?

    The Afghans seem to have chosen the Taliban.

    Regrettable but the reality.

    Now the West could overthrow the Taliban again.

    But that's a different issue.

    Chair of Defence Select Committee says that this not over by a long way: civil war will develop.
    Well here’s hoping. The only people who can really get rid of these psychopathic loons are other Afghans who refuse to accept that history and ethics wasn’t fully crystallised by the 13th century.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 42,425
    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Of course they're not cuddly. They're extremely unpleasant.

    But they're also extremely poor. Their (legal) exports cover barely a tenth of their essential imports of food, fuel and electricity.

    This limits their ability to cause trouble without (at the very least) the backing of someone richer.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,468
    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Yes we can hope. First impressions of that Taliban cabinet are not great though. I'm particularly perturbed by the lack of diversity.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,611
    Evening all :)

    For now, superficially, it appears the Taliban are "playing nice" in Kabul.

    Well, yes - after all, many reports from Berlin in 1945 said the first wave of Russian troops, the combat soldiers, were correct in their dealings with the German population. The rapes and pillage began with the follow-up and support troops.

    How things will be once the world's eyes are elsewhere remains to be seen.

    From 1945-89, we maintained a large defensive glacis against a seemingly powerful military threat just two hours from the Rhine. We understood that - we knew what might and perhaps would happen if deterrence failed and war broke out in Central Europe. The options were victory, surrender or annihilation.

    Islamic fundamentalism isn't Soviet Communism. In the end, ultimately, the Soviet system proved as brittle as the recently collapsed Afghan Government - with a few exceptions (the Securitate in Romania), no one was prepared to fight and die for Marxism in East Berlin, Prague or Budapest in 1989.

    That's the difference between ideology and faith - the latter is so much more powerful. How do you fight or reason with a zealot? You can't - if their end goal is the conversion of your society to one which matches theirs, your options are similarly limited. The problem is the reach of faith is so much greater than it was before. The Internet radicalises individuals far from any actual battlefields.

    I don't have any answers - I know we are not the Roman Empire. We may feel comfortable with a Pax Americana but it was never going to work even after 1989. Garrisoning far off countries in an attempt to keep the barbarian from the gate is old thinking unfit for the digital age.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,544
    edited August 2021

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    Appeasement a fine party tradition of course.
    As is SNP collusion with hostile foreign powers and thinking that jackboots and swastikas are de rigueur fashion items
    Wrong party. Vide A. Ramsay and Sempill.
    I think you will find Arthur Donaldson was once a leader of the SNP and was a fascist sympathiser (or at least espoused the benefits to the cause of Britain losing to the Nazis), as was Andrew Dewar Gibb QC. Divisive nationalism is only a short step from fascism. It is an inconvenient truth for nationalists of all stripes
    Donaldson is dealt with elsewhere.
    Might be worth reading into this a little more. MI5 perhaps had good reasons for recommending his release.

    I think it might be a little more plausible if nationalists accepted they have an inglorious past in relationship to fascism, just as some Tories did and even the royal family. To try and claim that it did not exist is just denial and an attempt to rewrite history.
    It's just the likes of HYUFD insisting that Scotnats are traitors while denying their own history. You are quite right to emphasise we need to look at history. But there is a limit to which one must be bound by it, or to accuse one's opponents of being what the party under their name was in say 1940, unless of course the opponents themselves keep invoking that.

    I'm still massively struck by the contrast between the ruling parties in England and (as a minority government) Scotland when the Churchill and Bruce statues were vandalised. Massive difference in reaction. the Tories really, really care about WW2 in a way that is almost unique outside the Right.

    I've actually been rechecking the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography entry on Gibb. Not what some might expect. He was a keen supporter of Empire and WW2. He was actually a Tory first and foremost (in the general sense) - active in the Unionist Party and coming out with what sounds like the usual Unionist anti-irish stuff (very common in those days [edit] and certainly also seen in elements of the Scottish nationalist movement in the past). But he was increasingly unhappy with the centralisation of Unionism and moved to Scottish nationalism albeit as a Tory devolutionist more than anything else. But what became the SNP was too leftie for him in the end and he more or less gave up politics and became part of the establishment.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,944
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Of course they're not cuddly. They're extremely unpleasant.

    But they're also extremely poor. Their (legal) exports cover barely a tenth of their essential imports of food, fuel and electricity.

    This limits their ability to cause trouble without (at the very least) the backing of someone richer.
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Yes we can hope. First impressions of that Taliban cabinet are not great though. I'm particularly perturbed by the lack of diversity.
    How many women?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 42,425
    TimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    How this plays out in terms of Western government popularity, depends very much on what happens in the coming days and weeks.

    Thankfully, from the point of view of Western governments, it appears that the Taliban are playing the PR game, and will let the Westerners all leave peacefully before they get on with doing what they do.

    The Taliban need money, and the drug trade isn't paying what it used to (thanks to competition from China).

    It is therefore entirely possible that - while life will be pretty miserable for many ordinary Afghanis - this has limited impact beyond the initial news cycle.
    Did you hear the NPR piece (on Marketplace, I think), where they looked at the Taliban's revenue sources. Taxation now seems to be the biggest source - both the traditional taxation on trade, and the protection taxation of infrastructure such as cell phone towers.
    I did not, but I did know that "telecommunications" exports (i.e. the US government and military using cell phones in Afghanistan) was something like $70m - i.e. more than 10% of total exports. With the Americans mostly gone, I think we can assume that's going to be going to close to zero, and one would think that would impact the taxation revenues from cell phone towers.
  • Sean_F said:

    Re-enter what war ?

    The Afghans seem to have chosen the Taliban.

    Regrettable but the reality.

    Now the West could overthrow the Taliban again.

    But that's a different issue.

    While I doubt if re-entering the war is in any way practical, I would not say the Afghans have chosen the Taliban. They have support certainly, but the rest have little option but to bow to the inevitable.
    Given how bloody civil wars tend to be in Muslim countries - Libya, Syria, Iraq as examples - its absence during the last month is notable.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 6,815

    Sean_F said:

    Re-enter what war ?

    The Afghans seem to have chosen the Taliban.

    Regrettable but the reality.

    Now the West could overthrow the Taliban again.

    But that's a different issue.

    While I doubt if re-entering the war is in any way practical, I would not say the Afghans have chosen the Taliban. They have support certainly, but the rest have little option but to bow to the inevitable.
    Given how bloody civil wars tend to be in Muslim countries - Libya, Syria, Iraq as examples - its absence during the last month is notable.
    Qatar has hosted their political leaders for a while. If Afghanistan became like Qatar it wouldn't be so bad. Better still if they could find any degree of prosperity.
  • kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Yes we can hope. First impressions of that Taliban cabinet are not great though. I'm particularly perturbed by the lack of diversity.
    How many non-Muslims?
  • China urges the U.S. to stop official contacts, arms sales to, and military ties with Taiwan - Chinese MFA

    When I first read that, I thought it said "Taliban", not "Taiwan"!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,468
    pigeon said:

    When I left to make the dinner a while ago the discussion was actually on topic. How on Earth did it get back to the zillionth stupid mudslinging fest over another place?

    Oh well, never mind. Just about the only good news about the Afghan debacle is it looks as if I may have been right when I said the Taliban had concluded it was in their interest to let the foreigners go in peace. The bad news is that I seem to recall seeing on the news earlier today that the RAF had so far managed to get 300 people out through the airport. Apparently there are 6,000 UK citizens and eligible Afghans awaiting rescue. This is far from ideal...

    Yep you were right on that one. It seemed to make sense to a rational way of thinking and so it proved. Perhaps the same will apply when it comes to reestablishing a Butlins for international terrorist gangs to prepare attacks on the West. That wouldn't be rational either so maybe it won't happen. Maybe they'll take a leaf from the Americans and concentrate on the home front. Make Afghanistan Great - aka a repressive and backward Islamic fundamentalist state - Again.
  • China urges the U.S. to stop official contacts, arms sales to, and military ties with Taiwan - Chinese MFA

    When I first read that, I thought it said "Taliban", not "Taiwan"!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,944
    China will end up buying up Afghanistan. The process has already started, hence the Taleban’s indifference to the genocide of the Uighers. It is chump change for the Chinese. Only the Pakistanis will be cross.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 46,247
    One for @Big_G_NorthWales ?


    Aaron Bastani
    @AaronBastani
    ·
    1h
    Mark Drakeford is arguably Britain’s most effective politician, carving out a distinct space encompassing ‘soft’ Welsh nationalism and some social democracy. It’s very popular.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,468
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Of course they're not cuddly. They're extremely unpleasant.

    But they're also extremely poor. Their (legal) exports cover barely a tenth of their essential imports of food, fuel and electricity.

    This limits their ability to cause trouble without (at the very least) the backing of someone richer.
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Yes we can hope. First impressions of that Taliban cabinet are not great though. I'm particularly perturbed by the lack of diversity.
    How many women?
    None. Monogender. Monoreligion. Stultifying.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 46,247
    DavidL said:

    China will end up buying up Afghanistan. The process has already started, hence the Taleban’s indifference to the genocide of the Uighers. It is chump change for the Chinese. Only the Pakistanis will be cross.

    "Afghanistan has vast mineral deposits, including coal, copper and iron ore, talc, lithium and uranium, as well as gold, precious stones, oil and gas."

    Foreign Policy magazine.

  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 6,586
    kjh said:

    kjh said:

    Haven't posted anything on Afghanistan. Very depressing all around. No point in commenting on Trump, but I am very, very disappointed in Biden. I would be even more depressed if I had been, or my children had been, involved in the military, particular those wounded or killed.

    Although we are impotent really I also don't think this reflects well on us. Delays in helping those who helped us which will almost certainly cause some to die because their paperwork wasn't quite right, the scholarship scandal (now reversed). And did Boris really go on holiday on Saturday? I really hope that is not an accurate report.

    The response from ex-military and military personnel seems very consistent and very sad.

    +1

    Some of the interviews with veterans have been heartbreaking. So many years in the primes of their lives, wasted. Losing friends and seeing others maimed, and all the terrible things they have seen. All for nothing.

    Who would be happy to see their children serving in the armed forces, serving under these dunderheids?
    Gosh I posted that 8 hours ago. Very impressed someone reads anything I wrote that is that old.
    I catch the goodies.

    John Loony used to go through archived threads and dig up treasures. Mind you, he was… er… a loony.

    I’ve been meaning to go through last week’s threads and compile all the PBers who are Greens. I now stick my hand up and admit I’m not going to manage that. But thank you all who responded. There were a lot more than I I realised. I may well be joining you soon! In the Swedish GE2022 I hasten to add.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,944
    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Of course they're not cuddly. They're extremely unpleasant.

    But they're also extremely poor. Their (legal) exports cover barely a tenth of their essential imports of food, fuel and electricity.

    This limits their ability to cause trouble without (at the very least) the backing of someone richer.
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Yes we can hope. First impressions of that Taliban cabinet are not great though. I'm particularly perturbed by the lack of diversity.
    How many women?
    None. Monogender. Monoreligion. Stultifying.
    I’
    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Of course they're not cuddly. They're extremely unpleasant.

    But they're also extremely poor. Their (legal) exports cover barely a tenth of their essential imports of food, fuel and electricity.

    This limits their ability to cause trouble without (at the very least) the backing of someone richer.
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Yes we can hope. First impressions of that Taliban cabinet are not great though. I'm particularly perturbed by the lack of diversity.
    How many women?
    None. Monogender. Monoreligion. Stultifying.
    I’m shocked. Really shocked. 😂
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,468

    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Yes we can hope. First impressions of that Taliban cabinet are not great though. I'm particularly perturbed by the lack of diversity.
    How many non-Muslims?
    That glass ceiling is yet to be broken. It might take a while, I think.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 1,569
    kinabalu said:

    pigeon said:

    When I left to make the dinner a while ago the discussion was actually on topic. How on Earth did it get back to the zillionth stupid mudslinging fest over another place?

    Oh well, never mind. Just about the only good news about the Afghan debacle is it looks as if I may have been right when I said the Taliban had concluded it was in their interest to let the foreigners go in peace. The bad news is that I seem to recall seeing on the news earlier today that the RAF had so far managed to get 300 people out through the airport. Apparently there are 6,000 UK citizens and eligible Afghans awaiting rescue. This is far from ideal...

    Yep you were right on that one. It seemed to make sense to a rational way of thinking and so it proved. Perhaps the same will apply when it comes to reestablishing a Butlins for international terrorist gangs to prepare attacks on the West. That wouldn't be rational either so maybe it won't happen. Maybe they'll take a leaf from the Americans and concentrate on the home front. Make Afghanistan Great - aka a repressive and backward Islamic fundamentalist state - Again.
    One would hope that they'd have learned their lesson from last time. If you prevent other people's villains from launching attacks from your territory, then yours can do pretty much what they like at home. Caveat: they might decide that being marginally less horrid to women will help them to secure the international aid money that they want. That may depend above all on whether they can get adequate money out of the Chinese, who won't care about such niceties, or if they also need Western aid money and/or don't want to become overly dependent on that nice Mr Xi.

    Regardless, I'm reasonably sure that liberal interventionism has had its day as a response to the threat of terrorism or its toleration by unfriendly governments. If something like 9/11 happened nowadays then retaliation would more likely come from drone strikes or barrages of cruise missiles.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,544

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    looks like conservative voters are more anti-intervention than the rest. surprises me a little.

    and leave more-so than remain. seems more logical if part of Brexit is keeping yourself to yourself.

    Appeasement a fine party tradition of course.
    As is SNP collusion with hostile foreign powers and thinking that jackboots and swastikas are de rigueur fashion items
    Wrong party. Vide A. Ramsay and Sempill.
    I think you will find Arthur Donaldson was once a leader of the SNP and was a fascist sympathiser (or at least espoused the benefits to the cause of Britain losing to the Nazis), as was Andrew Dewar Gibb QC. Divisive nationalism is only a short step from fascism. It is an inconvenient truth for nationalists of all stripes
    Donaldson is dealt with elsewhere.
    Might be worth reading into this a little more. MI5 perhaps had good reasons for recommending his release.

    I think it might be a little more plausible if nationalists accepted they have an inglorious past in relationship to fascism, just as some Tories did and even the royal family. To try and claim that it did not exist is just denial and an attempt to rewrite history.
    You have also prompted me to refresh my memory of the Donaldson affair and that story of HYUFD's - it seemed so suspicious given the feeding of information to the Germans by intelligence agencies that I found it hard to take seriously. I found this which I hadn't come across: very much pointing to misinformation and black ops:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/jun/03/theobserver.uknews1

    In any case, the failure to imprison him beyond investigation (or even charge him) speaks for itself (and Gibb too). This was a time when they were arresting and banging up a nearby Tory MP, as I said, and deporting the local ice cream making family (who went down in the Arandora Star) for the crime of being Italian - all very much remembered in family memory. And imprisoning German Jews on Mann.

    Intderestingly, Oxford DNB says that his opposition to the war, conscription, etc. was based on the principle that Scotland had not beeb democratically represented in the decisions involved - not because he was inherently a fascist. he certaionly wouldn't be the only politician in the hope of attaining, or keeping, national independence at that time - massively misguided as (in hindsight) it appears.



  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 46,247
    DavidL said:

    China will end up buying up Afghanistan. The process has already started, hence the Taleban’s indifference to the genocide of the Uighers. It is chump change for the Chinese. Only the Pakistanis will be cross.

    "Afghanistan has vast mineral deposits, including coal, copper and iron ore, talc, lithium and uranium, as well as gold, precious stones, oil and gas."

    Foreign Policy magazine.

  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 6,586

    One for @Big_G_NorthWales ?


    Aaron Bastani
    @AaronBastani
    ·
    1h
    Mark Drakeford is arguably Britain’s most effective politician, carving out a distinct space encompassing ‘soft’ Welsh nationalism and some social democracy. It’s very popular.

    It’s hardly a new concept. John Smith, Robin Cook, Donald Dewar, Gordon Brown, Henry McLeish etc used that formula with terrific success for decades. Then Scottish Labour transmogrified into British Nationalists (thanks Dave and Ruth!) and the rest is history.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 1,569

    One for @Big_G_NorthWales ?


    Aaron Bastani
    @AaronBastani
    ·
    1h
    Mark Drakeford is arguably Britain’s most effective politician, carving out a distinct space encompassing ‘soft’ Welsh nationalism and some social democracy. It’s very popular.

    I'm not sure what an alleged socialist is doing talking about soft nationalism. Firstly I didn't think they approved of nationalism. Secondly there's no such thing as soft nationalism anyway. Soft nationalism, as we have already discovered, means playing the whining about colonialism card the second a politician just over the border accuses you of being bad at something, rather than taking the trouble to offer actual evidence to the contrary.

    We know where soft nationalism will end. An old remark about motorways with no exits springs to mind.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 46,247

    Owen Jones Rose
    @OwenJones84
    What TV series is your default comfort watch you always return to? Mine’s This Life. Go!





    Blimey. Some of the answers? Great TV shows, but "comfort watch"??

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    China takes the opportunity to talk shite

    https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202108/1231691.shtml#.YRvrz0ozeA0.twitter

    If there are US troops present on Taiwan island, China will crush them by force:
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 38,121
    pigeon said:

    One for @Big_G_NorthWales ?


    Aaron Bastani
    @AaronBastani
    ·
    1h
    Mark Drakeford is arguably Britain’s most effective politician, carving out a distinct space encompassing ‘soft’ Welsh nationalism and some social democracy. It’s very popular.

    I'm not sure what an alleged socialist is doing talking about soft nationalism. Firstly I didn't think they approved of nationalism. Secondly there's no such thing as soft nationalism anyway. Soft nationalism, as we have already discovered, means playing the whining about colonialism card the second a politician just over the border accuses you of being bad at something, rather than taking the trouble to offer actual evidence to the contrary.

    We know where soft nationalism will end. An old remark about motorways with no exits springs to mind.
    Blackpool?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 46,247
    pigeon said:

    One for @Big_G_NorthWales ?


    Aaron Bastani
    @AaronBastani
    ·
    1h
    Mark Drakeford is arguably Britain’s most effective politician, carving out a distinct space encompassing ‘soft’ Welsh nationalism and some social democracy. It’s very popular.

    I'm not sure what an alleged socialist is doing talking about soft nationalism. Firstly I didn't think they approved of nationalism. Secondly there's no such thing as soft nationalism anyway. Soft nationalism, as we have already discovered, means playing the whining about colonialism card the second a politician just over the border accuses you of being bad at something, rather than taking the trouble to offer actual evidence to the contrary.

    We know where soft nationalism will end. An old remark about motorways with no exits springs to mind.
    To be honest, for a moment I thought Bastani's account had been hacked to be honest. I mean "social democracy"?

    That's like evil Blair/Brown doctrine that ruined Labour forever isn't it??
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 21,206
    For @NickPalmer and anyone else who may want to help, this - https://twitter.com/suzanne_moore/status/1427611886925844480?s=21 - provides a link to some of the charities in Afghanistan and to refugees resettled here.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 46,247

    One for @Big_G_NorthWales ?


    Aaron Bastani
    @AaronBastani
    ·
    1h
    Mark Drakeford is arguably Britain’s most effective politician, carving out a distinct space encompassing ‘soft’ Welsh nationalism and some social democracy. It’s very popular.

    It’s hardly a new concept. John Smith, Robin Cook, Donald Dewar, Gordon Brown, Henry McLeish etc used that formula with terrific success for decades. Then Scottish Labour transmogrified into British Nationalists (thanks Dave and Ruth!) and the rest is history.
    A list of names from Lab's past which I would have thought Bastani and chums would have said were worse than Tories and sold out and had not idea about the real lives of the working class etc etc etc...
  • IanB2 said:

    pigeon said:

    One for @Big_G_NorthWales ?


    Aaron Bastani
    @AaronBastani
    ·
    1h
    Mark Drakeford is arguably Britain’s most effective politician, carving out a distinct space encompassing ‘soft’ Welsh nationalism and some social democracy. It’s very popular.

    I'm not sure what an alleged socialist is doing talking about soft nationalism. Firstly I didn't think they approved of nationalism. Secondly there's no such thing as soft nationalism anyway. Soft nationalism, as we have already discovered, means playing the whining about colonialism card the second a politician just over the border accuses you of being bad at something, rather than taking the trouble to offer actual evidence to the contrary.

    We know where soft nationalism will end. An old remark about motorways with no exits springs to mind.
    Blackpool?
    Nah, the M55 has a few exits.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 6,586
    If this report is true, it has huge implications on the Next PM market:

    ‘SNP 'not a progressive party' and Labour won't strike deal with Nationalists in future, claims Anneliese Dodds’

    Asked if Labour members would be happy with a deal with the SNP, if it meant the party returning to power at Westminster, Dodds said: "No, it would not be a benefit, as ultimately the SNP is not a progressive political party in my view."

    Dodds said: "I want to see Labour in a position in which we win that next general election. I really think we need to have that Labour representation - it's Labour that is the party of progressive socialism.

    “I was brought up in the north-east of Scotland and I really want to see us winning seats again.”

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-not-progressive-party-labour-24777569
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 1,258
    pigeon said:

    One for @Big_G_NorthWales ?


    Aaron Bastani
    @AaronBastani
    ·
    1h
    Mark Drakeford is arguably Britain’s most effective politician, carving out a distinct space encompassing ‘soft’ Welsh nationalism and some social democracy. It’s very popular.

    I'm not sure what an alleged socialist is doing talking about soft nationalism. Firstly I didn't think they approved of nationalism. Secondly there's no such thing as soft nationalism anyway. Soft nationalism, as we have already discovered, means playing the whining about colonialism card the second a politician just over the border accuses you of being bad at something, rather than taking the trouble to offer actual evidence to the contrary.

    We know where soft nationalism will end. An old remark about motorways with no exits springs to mind.
    Yeah but nationalism it is everywhere you look. Look at the UK, Brexit and afterwards. Its really all the same thing.

  • TazTaz Posts: 3,040

    DavidL said:

    China will end up buying up Afghanistan. The process has already started, hence the Taleban’s indifference to the genocide of the Uighers. It is chump change for the Chinese. Only the Pakistanis will be cross.

    "Afghanistan has vast mineral deposits, including coal, copper and iron ore, talc, lithium and uranium, as well as gold, precious stones, oil and gas."

    Foreign Policy magazine.

    I’m sure, given their commitment to net zero, the Chinese will pass on that.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 1,569

    pigeon said:

    One for @Big_G_NorthWales ?


    Aaron Bastani
    @AaronBastani
    ·
    1h
    Mark Drakeford is arguably Britain’s most effective politician, carving out a distinct space encompassing ‘soft’ Welsh nationalism and some social democracy. It’s very popular.

    I'm not sure what an alleged socialist is doing talking about soft nationalism. Firstly I didn't think they approved of nationalism. Secondly there's no such thing as soft nationalism anyway. Soft nationalism, as we have already discovered, means playing the whining about colonialism card the second a politician just over the border accuses you of being bad at something, rather than taking the trouble to offer actual evidence to the contrary.

    We know where soft nationalism will end. An old remark about motorways with no exits springs to mind.
    To be honest, for a moment I thought Bastani's account had been hacked to be honest. I mean "social democracy"?

    That's like evil Blair/Brown doctrine that ruined Labour forever isn't it??
    Crikey, you're right! All that heaping praise on nationalism meant I'd failed to appreciate the heaping praise on social democracy. I'm not sure which is the more surprising.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 42,425
    DavidL said:

    China will end up buying up Afghanistan. The process has already started, hence the Taleban’s indifference to the genocide of the Uighers. It is chump change for the Chinese. Only the Pakistanis will be cross.

    Well, first they destroyed their export industry via production of fentanyl, then they offer to go in and help by building some mines.

    Of course, while there is a theoretical land path between Afghanistan and China, getting material out will be extremely expensive - certainly 5-6x more expensive than simply shipping stuff from Africa (which the Chinese have already bought up).
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 42,425
    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Of course they're not cuddly. They're extremely unpleasant.

    But they're also extremely poor. Their (legal) exports cover barely a tenth of their essential imports of food, fuel and electricity.

    This limits their ability to cause trouble without (at the very least) the backing of someone richer.
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Yes we can hope. First impressions of that Taliban cabinet are not great though. I'm particularly perturbed by the lack of diversity.
    How many women?
    None. Monogender. Monoreligion. Stultifying.
    There's at least a couple of transgender Taliban in the cabinet, surely?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,790
    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Of course they're not cuddly. They're extremely unpleasant.

    But they're also extremely poor. Their (legal) exports cover barely a tenth of their essential imports of food, fuel and electricity.

    This limits their ability to cause trouble without (at the very least) the backing of someone richer.
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Yes we can hope. First impressions of that Taliban cabinet are not great though. I'm particularly perturbed by the lack of diversity.
    How many women?
    None. Monogender. Monoreligion. Stultifying.
    More beards than a Republican convention for the preservation of Christian values and the traditional family
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1427649038397100033

    "Taliban spokesperson- Our women are Muslims and they'll be happy to live within Sharia law"

    Of course they are ........
  • rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Of course they're not cuddly. They're extremely unpleasant.

    But they're also extremely poor. Their (legal) exports cover barely a tenth of their essential imports of food, fuel and electricity.

    This limits their ability to cause trouble without (at the very least) the backing of someone richer.
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Yes we can hope. First impressions of that Taliban cabinet are not great though. I'm particularly perturbed by the lack of diversity.
    How many women?
    None. Monogender. Monoreligion. Stultifying.
    There's at least a couple of transgender Taliban in the cabinet, surely?
    I don't think it's a "transitional" government!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,944

    If this report is true, it has huge implications on the Next PM market:

    ‘SNP 'not a progressive party' and Labour won't strike deal with Nationalists in future, claims Anneliese Dodds’

    Asked if Labour members would be happy with a deal with the SNP, if it meant the party returning to power at Westminster, Dodds said: "No, it would not be a benefit, as ultimately the SNP is not a progressive political party in my view."

    Dodds said: "I want to see Labour in a position in which we win that next general election. I really think we need to have that Labour representation - it's Labour that is the party of progressive socialism.

    “I was brought up in the north-east of Scotland and I really want to see us winning seats again.”

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-not-progressive-party-labour-24777569

    I think that the problem with this hypothesis is that anyone gives a damn about what Annelise Dodds thinks about anything.
  • MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 686

    If this report is true, it has huge implications on the Next PM market:

    ‘SNP 'not a progressive party' and Labour won't strike deal with Nationalists in future, claims Anneliese Dodds’

    Asked if Labour members would be happy with a deal with the SNP, if it meant the party returning to power at Westminster, Dodds said: "No, it would not be a benefit, as ultimately the SNP is not a progressive political party in my view."

    Dodds said: "I want to see Labour in a position in which we win that next general election. I really think we need to have that Labour representation - it's Labour that is the party of progressive socialism.

    “I was brought up in the north-east of Scotland and I really want to see us winning seats again.”

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-not-progressive-party-labour-24777569

    The rest of the UK would stand for a Labour minority propped up by SNP. They have to say these things but the problem won't be solved until the SNP are going after either a resurgent Scottish Labour or a Tory/LD coalition in Holyrood?
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 1,569
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    China will end up buying up Afghanistan. The process has already started, hence the Taleban’s indifference to the genocide of the Uighers. It is chump change for the Chinese. Only the Pakistanis will be cross.

    Well, first they destroyed their export industry via production of fentanyl, then they offer to go in and help by building some mines.

    Of course, while there is a theoretical land path between Afghanistan and China, getting material out will be extremely expensive - certainly 5-6x more expensive than simply shipping stuff from Africa (which the Chinese have already bought up).
    Upgrade the Pakistani rail network and build a couple of branches into Afghanistan. The goods can all be hauled to Karachi. Job done.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,944
    Floater said:

    China takes the opportunity to talk shite

    https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202108/1231691.shtml#.YRvrz0ozeA0.twitter

    If there are US troops present on Taiwan island, China will crush them by force:

    Well, good luck with that.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,657

    Can we put a good chunk of the dks down as 'I don't really have a clue about Afghanistan and not having expressed a view on the place for X years would feel like a right dick expressing strong opinions on the subject now'?

    Oh, come on. If PB is a guide, then not having a clue about a topic is no reason to feel a dick about expressing strong opinions on the topic.

    For instance, the way some Scottish Nationalists opine on the unique evils of England and the English ... ;)
    There was a cartoon a while back with someone looking at their computer observing "That's strange, all the Electoral College experts are now pandemic experts".....
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 42,425

    DavidL said:

    China will end up buying up Afghanistan. The process has already started, hence the Taleban’s indifference to the genocide of the Uighers. It is chump change for the Chinese. Only the Pakistanis will be cross.

    "Afghanistan has vast mineral deposits, including coal, copper and iron ore, talc, lithium and uranium, as well as gold, precious stones, oil and gas."

    Foreign Policy magazine.

    Yeah. But so does Mongolia and Papua New Guinea and most of Africa.

    But that doesn't mean that they'll be sensibly exported. Take coal. The minehead price is tiny - Powder River Basin coal is something like $12/tonne. But coal delivered at (say) a port in the UK is $100/tonne.

    Getting coal from a mine by a port is one thing. Getting it from Afghanistan is something entirely different. It would cost $1,000+/tonne to get it to anyone because it's a landlocked country with no infrastructure.

    Now, it may be that there is an opportunity with other minerals, oil and gas - but Mongolia is instructive. It's stable politically. It's much less geographically isolated. And it's at least as well endowed as Afghanistan.

    They've been on a two decade long push to get investment - whether from the (next door) Chinese or from Australian or other foreign mining companies. And it's worked, to an extent.

    But in two decades, they've managed to open three or four mines, and to increase exports from bugger all to not very much.

    It'd be a real struggle for Afghanistan - which has no roads, no electricity, no skilled labour, etc. - to do any better than Mongolia.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,468
    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Of course they're not cuddly. They're extremely unpleasant.

    But they're also extremely poor. Their (legal) exports cover barely a tenth of their essential imports of food, fuel and electricity.

    This limits their ability to cause trouble without (at the very least) the backing of someone richer.
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Yes we can hope. First impressions of that Taliban cabinet are not great though. I'm particularly perturbed by the lack of diversity.
    How many women?
    None. Monogender. Monoreligion. Stultifying.
    There's at least a couple of transgender Taliban in the cabinet, surely?
    Also missing. I fear we're going to see a reactionary sterile groupthink on policy.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 6,586

    One for @Big_G_NorthWales ?


    Aaron Bastani
    @AaronBastani
    ·
    1h
    Mark Drakeford is arguably Britain’s most effective politician, carving out a distinct space encompassing ‘soft’ Welsh nationalism and some social democracy. It’s very popular.

    It’s hardly a new concept. John Smith, Robin Cook, Donald Dewar, Gordon Brown, Henry McLeish etc used that formula with terrific success for decades. Then Scottish Labour transmogrified into British Nationalists (thanks Dave and Ruth!) and the rest is history.
    A list of names from Lab's past which I would have thought Bastani and chums would have said were worse than Tories and sold out and had not idea about the real lives of the working class etc etc etc...
    To be fair, the “distinct space encompassing ‘soft’ nationalism and some social democracy” tradition goes back *a lot* further than the folk I mentioned. All the way back to Keir Hardie and Cunninghame Graham themselves. William Adamson, Tom Johnston, Willie Ross, Bruce Millan… they were all at it.

    And then you have the Tory equivalents like John Buchan et al. That’s when Tories were popular in Scotland.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 42,425
    pigeon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    China will end up buying up Afghanistan. The process has already started, hence the Taleban’s indifference to the genocide of the Uighers. It is chump change for the Chinese. Only the Pakistanis will be cross.

    Well, first they destroyed their export industry via production of fentanyl, then they offer to go in and help by building some mines.

    Of course, while there is a theoretical land path between Afghanistan and China, getting material out will be extremely expensive - certainly 5-6x more expensive than simply shipping stuff from Africa (which the Chinese have already bought up).
    Upgrade the Pakistani rail network and build a couple of branches into Afghanistan. The goods can all be hauled to Karachi. Job done.
    Have you looked at Google Maps?
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 3,439
    According to the Taliban, they do not discriminate against women in forming their government. The only limiting criterion is that you must have a full beard to be eligible.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 1,569

    If this report is true, it has huge implications on the Next PM market:

    ‘SNP 'not a progressive party' and Labour won't strike deal with Nationalists in future, claims Anneliese Dodds’

    Asked if Labour members would be happy with a deal with the SNP, if it meant the party returning to power at Westminster, Dodds said: "No, it would not be a benefit, as ultimately the SNP is not a progressive political party in my view."

    Dodds said: "I want to see Labour in a position in which we win that next general election. I really think we need to have that Labour representation - it's Labour that is the party of progressive socialism.

    “I was brought up in the north-east of Scotland and I really want to see us winning seats again.”

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-not-progressive-party-labour-24777569

    Those remarks are probably for the benefit of Labour's lost voters in England more than their lost voters in another place. I'm quite sure that Ms Dodds would suddenly discover that she had a great deal in common with Ms Sturgeon if the support of her MPs became important after the next GE.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,836
    rcs1000 said:

    pigeon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    China will end up buying up Afghanistan. The process has already started, hence the Taleban’s indifference to the genocide of the Uighers. It is chump change for the Chinese. Only the Pakistanis will be cross.

    Well, first they destroyed their export industry via production of fentanyl, then they offer to go in and help by building some mines.

    Of course, while there is a theoretical land path between Afghanistan and China, getting material out will be extremely expensive - certainly 5-6x more expensive than simply shipping stuff from Africa (which the Chinese have already bought up).
    Upgrade the Pakistani rail network and build a couple of branches into Afghanistan. The goods can all be hauled to Karachi. Job done.
    Have you looked at Google Maps?
    With 3D switched on!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 27,059
    rcs1000 said:

    pigeon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    China will end up buying up Afghanistan. The process has already started, hence the Taleban’s indifference to the genocide of the Uighers. It is chump change for the Chinese. Only the Pakistanis will be cross.

    Well, first they destroyed their export industry via production of fentanyl, then they offer to go in and help by building some mines.

    Of course, while there is a theoretical land path between Afghanistan and China, getting material out will be extremely expensive - certainly 5-6x more expensive than simply shipping stuff from Africa (which the Chinese have already bought up).
    Upgrade the Pakistani rail network and build a couple of branches into Afghanistan. The goods can all be hauled to Karachi. Job done.
    Have you looked at Google Maps?
    Yeah. My screen's flat. So what? ;)
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,468

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Of course they're not cuddly. They're extremely unpleasant.

    But they're also extremely poor. Their (legal) exports cover barely a tenth of their essential imports of food, fuel and electricity.

    This limits their ability to cause trouble without (at the very least) the backing of someone richer.
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Yes we can hope. First impressions of that Taliban cabinet are not great though. I'm particularly perturbed by the lack of diversity.
    How many women?
    None. Monogender. Monoreligion. Stultifying.
    More beards than a Republican convention for the preservation of Christian values and the traditional family
    Yep. That's the realms we're in, I think. Narrow view of the world with little tolerance for difference and dissenters. It's surprisingly popular in places.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,657
    edited August 2021
    Joyous & Civic nuts.....

    "we have seized Edinburgh Castle".

    She continues: "We're waiting to restore the rule of law. We're doing this peacefully and we're doing this lawfully.

    "We are using article 61 of the Magna Carta. We have had enough. The people of Scotland have had enough and today we claim our power back.


    https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-castle-incident-large-police-21335855

    FullFact:

    https://fullfact.org/online/did-she-die-in-vain/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000
    edited August 2021

    If this report is true, it has huge implications on the Next PM market:

    ‘SNP 'not a progressive party' and Labour won't strike deal with Nationalists in future, claims Anneliese Dodds’

    Asked if Labour members would be happy with a deal with the SNP, if it meant the party returning to power at Westminster, Dodds said: "No, it would not be a benefit, as ultimately the SNP is not a progressive political party in my view."

    Dodds said: "I want to see Labour in a position in which we win that next general election. I really think we need to have that Labour representation - it's Labour that is the party of progressive socialism.

    “I was brought up in the north-east of Scotland and I really want to see us winning seats again.”

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-not-progressive-party-labour-24777569

    Things might look very different when it's no longer a hypothetical. As pigeon says it may help assure others is all.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,651

    Joyous & Civic nuts.....

    "we have seized Edinburgh Castle".

    She continues: "We're waiting to restore the rule of law. We're doing this peacefully and we're doing this lawfully.

    "We are using article 61 of the Magna Carta. We have had enough. The people of Scotland have had enough and today we claim our power back.


    https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-castle-incident-large-police-21335855

    FullFact:

    https://fullfact.org/online/did-she-die-in-vain/

    Magna Carta extends to Scotland does it?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000
    DavidL said:

    If this report is true, it has huge implications on the Next PM market:

    ‘SNP 'not a progressive party' and Labour won't strike deal with Nationalists in future, claims Anneliese Dodds’

    Asked if Labour members would be happy with a deal with the SNP, if it meant the party returning to power at Westminster, Dodds said: "No, it would not be a benefit, as ultimately the SNP is not a progressive political party in my view."

    Dodds said: "I want to see Labour in a position in which we win that next general election. I really think we need to have that Labour representation - it's Labour that is the party of progressive socialism.

    “I was brought up in the north-east of Scotland and I really want to see us winning seats again.”

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-not-progressive-party-labour-24777569

    I think that the problem with this hypothesis is that anyone gives a damn about what Annelise Dodds thinks about anything.
    Well of course we give a damn about what the *checks wikipedia* Chair of the Labour Party thinks.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,849
    edited August 2021
    I see the social conservatives are complaining about censorship on Facebook again

    https://twitter.com/MLiamMcCollum/status/1427658106054406149?s=19
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 44,801

    Joyous & Civic nuts.....

    "we have seized Edinburgh Castle".

    She continues: "We're waiting to restore the rule of law. We're doing this peacefully and we're doing this lawfully.

    "We are using article 61 of the Magna Carta. We have had enough. The people of Scotland have had enough and today we claim our power back.


    https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-castle-incident-large-police-21335855

    FullFact:

    https://fullfact.org/online/did-she-die-in-vain/

    I thought John was King of England not King of Scotland?

    I mean, Edward I and all that, but that was two generations later.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 43,979
    Afghanistan will embolden China geopolitically as they'll view it as a sign of terminal Western decadence and weakness.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,789
    rpjs said:

    Joyous & Civic nuts.....

    "we have seized Edinburgh Castle".

    She continues: "We're waiting to restore the rule of law. We're doing this peacefully and we're doing this lawfully.

    "We are using article 61 of the Magna Carta. We have had enough. The people of Scotland have had enough and today we claim our power back.


    https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-castle-incident-large-police-21335855

    FullFact:

    https://fullfact.org/online/did-she-die-in-vain/

    Magna Carta extends to Scotland does it?
    They just want to assert their rights as Englishmen under the Acts of Union.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,836
    pigeon said:

    If this report is true, it has huge implications on the Next PM market:

    ‘SNP 'not a progressive party' and Labour won't strike deal with Nationalists in future, claims Anneliese Dodds’

    Asked if Labour members would be happy with a deal with the SNP, if it meant the party returning to power at Westminster, Dodds said: "No, it would not be a benefit, as ultimately the SNP is not a progressive political party in my view."

    Dodds said: "I want to see Labour in a position in which we win that next general election. I really think we need to have that Labour representation - it's Labour that is the party of progressive socialism.

    “I was brought up in the north-east of Scotland and I really want to see us winning seats again.”

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-not-progressive-party-labour-24777569

    Those remarks are probably for the benefit of Labour's lost voters in England more than their lost voters in another place. I'm quite sure that Ms Dodds would suddenly discover that she had a great deal in common with Ms Sturgeon if the support of her MPs became important after the next GE.
    How Labour play this issue in the run up to the GE is going to be crucial.

    Almost as crucial as how they play things after the election.

    If they want to become less popular than the 2015 Lib Dems, they’ll think about any sort of deal with the SNP in a very unstable Parliament.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 1,569
    rcs1000 said:

    pigeon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    China will end up buying up Afghanistan. The process has already started, hence the Taleban’s indifference to the genocide of the Uighers. It is chump change for the Chinese. Only the Pakistanis will be cross.

    Well, first they destroyed their export industry via production of fentanyl, then they offer to go in and help by building some mines.

    Of course, while there is a theoretical land path between Afghanistan and China, getting material out will be extremely expensive - certainly 5-6x more expensive than simply shipping stuff from Africa (which the Chinese have already bought up).
    Upgrade the Pakistani rail network and build a couple of branches into Afghanistan. The goods can all be hauled to Karachi. Job done.
    Have you looked at Google Maps?
    The Chinese built a railway to Lhasa. They could extend a couple of routes across the Afghan-Pak border if they were so minded, I'm sure.

    OTOH your remarks about Mongolia's travails are, admittedly, instructive.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,944
    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kinabalu said:

    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Of course they're not cuddly. They're extremely unpleasant.

    But they're also extremely poor. Their (legal) exports cover barely a tenth of their essential imports of food, fuel and electricity.

    This limits their ability to cause trouble without (at the very least) the backing of someone richer.
    kinabalu said:

    Leon said:

    I’m amazed that as many as 1 in 5 want to go back in and start the war again. How? Interesting that this cuts across the parties. 20% of each

    The withdrawal was probably an error, the management of the withdrawal is a tragic catastrophe, but it is done now

    Let’s hope the new Cuddly Teletubby Taliban are for real. I doubt it, but we can hope

    Yes we can hope. First impressions of that Taliban cabinet are not great though. I'm particularly perturbed by the lack of diversity.
    How many women?
    None. Monogender. Monoreligion. Stultifying.
    There's at least a couple of transgender Taliban in the cabinet, surely?
    Also missing. I fear we're going to see a reactionary sterile groupthink on policy.
    Blimey, it will be as bad as Corbynism.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,657
    edited August 2021
    rpjs said:

    Joyous & Civic nuts.....

    "we have seized Edinburgh Castle".

    She continues: "We're waiting to restore the rule of law. We're doing this peacefully and we're doing this lawfully.

    "We are using article 61 of the Magna Carta. We have had enough. The people of Scotland have had enough and today we claim our power back.


    https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-castle-incident-large-police-21335855

    FullFact:

    https://fullfact.org/online/did-she-die-in-vain/

    Magna Carta extends to Scotland does it?
    No, and not only that, clause (not article) 61 extended to 25 Barons, not anybody else, and was dropped from the final version.

    Only four of the 63 clauses in Magna Carta are still valid today - 1 (part), 13, 39 and 40. Of enduring importance to people appealing to the charter over the last 800 years are the famous clauses 39 and 40:

    “No free man shall be seized, imprisoned, dispossessed, outlawed, exiled or ruined in any way, nor in any way proceeded against, except by the lawful judgement of his peers and the law of the land.

    “To no one will we sell, to no one will we deny or delay right or justice.”

    These clauses remain law today, and provided the basis for important principles in English law developed in the fourteenth through to the seventeenth century, and which were exported to America and other English-speaking countries. Their phrasing, ‘to no one' and ‘no free man' gave these provisions a universal quality that is still applicable today in a way that many of the clauses relating specifically to feudal custom are not.


    https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/evolutionofparliament/originsofparliament/birthofparliament/overview/magnacarta/magnacartaclauses/
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,611
    Some better polls for the Liberals in Canada this evening (morning Canadian time).

    The most recent is IPSOS:

    https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/Out-of-the-Starting-Blocks-More-of-the-Same

    Libs 36, Cons 31, NDP 20 so a very small swing from Conservative to Liberal (roughly 1%) since October 2019.

    We'll have a discussion about Estonian politics another time but the EKRE have taken the lead in a poll and I can't recall that happening.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,944

    rpjs said:

    Joyous & Civic nuts.....

    "we have seized Edinburgh Castle".

    She continues: "We're waiting to restore the rule of law. We're doing this peacefully and we're doing this lawfully.

    "We are using article 61 of the Magna Carta. We have had enough. The people of Scotland have had enough and today we claim our power back.


    https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-castle-incident-large-police-21335855

    FullFact:

    https://fullfact.org/online/did-she-die-in-vain/

    Magna Carta extends to Scotland does it?
    No, and not only that, clause (not article) 61 extended to 25 Barons, not anybody else, and was dropped from the final version.

    Only four of the 63 clauses in Magna Carta are still valid today - 1 (part), 13, 39 and 40. Of enduring importance to people appealing to the charter over the last 800 years are the famous clauses 39 and 40:

    “No free man shall be seized, imprisoned, dispossessed, outlawed, exiled or ruined in any way, nor in any way proceeded against, except by the lawful judgement of his peers and the law of the land.

    “To no one will we sell, to no one will we deny or delay right or justice.”

    These clauses remain law today, and provided the basis for important principles in English law developed in the fourteenth through to the seventeenth century, and which were exported to America and other English-speaking countries. Their phrasing, ‘to no one' and ‘no free man' gave these provisions a universal quality that is still applicable today in a way that many of the clauses relating specifically to feudal custom are not.


    https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/evolutionofparliament/originsofparliament/birthofparliament/overview/magnacarta/magnacartaclauses/
    Don't think it applies. Certainly didn't for Craig Murray.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,944
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    If this report is true, it has huge implications on the Next PM market:

    ‘SNP 'not a progressive party' and Labour won't strike deal with Nationalists in future, claims Anneliese Dodds’

    Asked if Labour members would be happy with a deal with the SNP, if it meant the party returning to power at Westminster, Dodds said: "No, it would not be a benefit, as ultimately the SNP is not a progressive political party in my view."

    Dodds said: "I want to see Labour in a position in which we win that next general election. I really think we need to have that Labour representation - it's Labour that is the party of progressive socialism.

    “I was brought up in the north-east of Scotland and I really want to see us winning seats again.”

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-not-progressive-party-labour-24777569

    I think that the problem with this hypothesis is that anyone gives a damn about what Annelise Dodds thinks about anything.
    Well of course we give a damn about what the *checks wikipedia* Chair of the Labour Party thinks.
    Why?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,657
    Taliban collapses with laughter as journalist asks if they would be willing to accept democratic governance that voted in female politicians - and then tells camera to stop filming. “It made me laugh” he says.

    https://twitter.com/dpatrikarakos/status/1427567411692244992?s=20
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 21,206
    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1427649038397100033

    "Taliban spokesperson- Our women are Muslims and they'll be happy to live within Sharia law"

    Of course they are ........

    As if they've got any choice.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 44,801

    rpjs said:

    Joyous & Civic nuts.....

    "we have seized Edinburgh Castle".

    She continues: "We're waiting to restore the rule of law. We're doing this peacefully and we're doing this lawfully.

    "We are using article 61 of the Magna Carta. We have had enough. The people of Scotland have had enough and today we claim our power back.


    https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-castle-incident-large-police-21335855

    FullFact:

    https://fullfact.org/online/did-she-die-in-vain/

    Magna Carta extends to Scotland does it?
    They just want to assert their rights as Englishmen under the Acts of Union.
    Well, I suppose they are in Edinburgh which is of course a Saxon city.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 21,206

    Afghanistan will embolden China geopolitically as they'll view it as a sign of terminal Western decadence and weakness.

    And they're right to think that.

    The US has told the Taliban: don't terrorise us and you can be free to terrorise your people as much as you like.

    Also even if terrorists return to Afghanistan and start planning attacks on the US from there, can anyone now really be confident that the US would retaliate? They might launch some drone or missile at some target that wouldn't eliminate anything at all. So the Taliban and any terror grouping that feels like it are probably free to do whatever they want.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 42,425
    pigeon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    pigeon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    China will end up buying up Afghanistan. The process has already started, hence the Taleban’s indifference to the genocide of the Uighers. It is chump change for the Chinese. Only the Pakistanis will be cross.

    Well, first they destroyed their export industry via production of fentanyl, then they offer to go in and help by building some mines.

    Of course, while there is a theoretical land path between Afghanistan and China, getting material out will be extremely expensive - certainly 5-6x more expensive than simply shipping stuff from Africa (which the Chinese have already bought up).
    Upgrade the Pakistani rail network and build a couple of branches into Afghanistan. The goods can all be hauled to Karachi. Job done.
    Have you looked at Google Maps?
    The Chinese built a railway to Lhasa. They could extend a couple of routes across the Afghan-Pak border if they were so minded, I'm sure.

    OTOH your remarks about Mongolia's travails are, admittedly, instructive.
    (I would add that Mongolia has direct rail links to both China and to Russia and its Pacific port.)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000
    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    If this report is true, it has huge implications on the Next PM market:

    ‘SNP 'not a progressive party' and Labour won't strike deal with Nationalists in future, claims Anneliese Dodds’

    Asked if Labour members would be happy with a deal with the SNP, if it meant the party returning to power at Westminster, Dodds said: "No, it would not be a benefit, as ultimately the SNP is not a progressive political party in my view."

    Dodds said: "I want to see Labour in a position in which we win that next general election. I really think we need to have that Labour representation - it's Labour that is the party of progressive socialism.

    “I was brought up in the north-east of Scotland and I really want to see us winning seats again.”

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-not-progressive-party-labour-24777569

    I think that the problem with this hypothesis is that anyone gives a damn about what Annelise Dodds thinks about anything.
    Well of course we give a damn about what the *checks wikipedia* Chair of the Labour Party thinks.
    Why?
    You may have misread the intent of my post.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 1,569

    rpjs said:

    Joyous & Civic nuts.....

    "we have seized Edinburgh Castle".

    She continues: "We're waiting to restore the rule of law. We're doing this peacefully and we're doing this lawfully.

    "We are using article 61 of the Magna Carta. We have had enough. The people of Scotland have had enough and today we claim our power back.


    https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-castle-incident-large-police-21335855

    FullFact:

    https://fullfact.org/online/did-she-die-in-vain/

    Magna Carta extends to Scotland does it?
    No, and not only that, clause (not article) 61 extended to 25 Barons, not anybody else, and was dropped from the final version.

    Only four of the 63 clauses in Magna Carta are still valid today - 1 (part), 13, 39 and 40. Of enduring importance to people appealing to the charter over the last 800 years are the famous clauses 39 and 40:

    “No free man shall be seized, imprisoned, dispossessed, outlawed, exiled or ruined in any way, nor in any way proceeded against, except by the lawful judgement of his peers and the law of the land.

    “To no one will we sell, to no one will we deny or delay right or justice.”

    These clauses remain law today, and provided the basis for important principles in English law developed in the fourteenth through to the seventeenth century, and which were exported to America and other English-speaking countries. Their phrasing, ‘to no one' and ‘no free man' gave these provisions a universal quality that is still applicable today in a way that many of the clauses relating specifically to feudal custom are not.


    https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/evolutionofparliament/originsofparliament/birthofparliament/overview/magnacarta/magnacartaclauses/
    Has it been disclosed exactly what these people are protesting about in the first place, anyway?

    They might be cross about perceived infractions of the liberties of the English church for all we know...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 44,801

    rpjs said:

    Joyous & Civic nuts.....

    "we have seized Edinburgh Castle".

    She continues: "We're waiting to restore the rule of law. We're doing this peacefully and we're doing this lawfully.

    "We are using article 61 of the Magna Carta. We have had enough. The people of Scotland have had enough and today we claim our power back.


    https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-castle-incident-large-police-21335855

    FullFact:

    https://fullfact.org/online/did-she-die-in-vain/

    Magna Carta extends to Scotland does it?
    No, and not only that, clause (not article) 61 extended to 25 Barons, not anybody else, and was dropped from the final version.

    Only four of the 63 clauses in Magna Carta are still valid today - 1 (part), 13, 39 and 40. Of enduring importance to people appealing to the charter over the last 800 years are the famous clauses 39 and 40:

    “No free man shall be seized, imprisoned, dispossessed, outlawed, exiled or ruined in any way, nor in any way proceeded against, except by the lawful judgement of his peers and the law of the land.

    “To no one will we sell, to no one will we deny or delay right or justice.”

    These clauses remain law today, and provided the basis for important principles in English law developed in the fourteenth through to the seventeenth century, and which were exported to America and other English-speaking countries. Their phrasing, ‘to no one' and ‘no free man' gave these provisions a universal quality that is still applicable today in a way that many of the clauses relating specifically to feudal custom are not.


    https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/evolutionofparliament/originsofparliament/birthofparliament/overview/magnacarta/magnacartaclauses/
    I’m mildly amused that they think they are the 25 Anglo-Norman barons who could claim redress by force if necessary.

    Delusional, much?

    Here’s the list of people they apparently think they are:

    https://magnacarta800th.com/schools/biographies/the-25-barons-of-magna-carta/
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 1,569
    Cyclefree said:

    Afghanistan will embolden China geopolitically as they'll view it as a sign of terminal Western decadence and weakness.

    And they're right to think that.

    The US has told the Taliban: don't terrorise us and you can be free to terrorise your people as much as you like.

    Also even if terrorists return to Afghanistan and start planning attacks on the US from there, can anyone now really be confident that the US would retaliate? They might launch some drone or missile at some target that wouldn't eliminate anything at all. So the Taliban and any terror grouping that feels like it are probably free to do whatever they want.
    You can inflict an enormous amount of damage from the air. Let's just hope that the capacity and will of the Americans to do that to Afghanistan is never tested.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000
    ydoethur said:

    rpjs said:

    Joyous & Civic nuts.....

    "we have seized Edinburgh Castle".

    She continues: "We're waiting to restore the rule of law. We're doing this peacefully and we're doing this lawfully.

    "We are using article 61 of the Magna Carta. We have had enough. The people of Scotland have had enough and today we claim our power back.


    https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-castle-incident-large-police-21335855

    FullFact:

    https://fullfact.org/online/did-she-die-in-vain/

    Magna Carta extends to Scotland does it?
    No, and not only that, clause (not article) 61 extended to 25 Barons, not anybody else, and was dropped from the final version.

    Only four of the 63 clauses in Magna Carta are still valid today - 1 (part), 13, 39 and 40. Of enduring importance to people appealing to the charter over the last 800 years are the famous clauses 39 and 40:

    “No free man shall be seized, imprisoned, dispossessed, outlawed, exiled or ruined in any way, nor in any way proceeded against, except by the lawful judgement of his peers and the law of the land.

    “To no one will we sell, to no one will we deny or delay right or justice.”

    These clauses remain law today, and provided the basis for important principles in English law developed in the fourteenth through to the seventeenth century, and which were exported to America and other English-speaking countries. Their phrasing, ‘to no one' and ‘no free man' gave these provisions a universal quality that is still applicable today in a way that many of the clauses relating specifically to feudal custom are not.


    https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/evolutionofparliament/originsofparliament/birthofparliament/overview/magnacarta/magnacartaclauses/
    I’m mildly amused that they think they are the 25 Anglo-Norman barons who could claim redress by force if necessary.

    Delusional, much?

    Here’s the list of people they apparently think they are:

    https://magnacarta800th.com/schools/biographies/the-25-barons-of-magna-carta/
    I think you are giving them too much credit for getting to the Baronial part.

    Besides, I'm sure Charles knows a few of their descendents and some of them might be willing to help out.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000
    Cyclefree said:

    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1427649038397100033

    "Taliban spokesperson- Our women are Muslims and they'll be happy to live within Sharia law"

    Of course they are ........

    As if they've got any choice.
    I know I express my happiness at a course of action by not doing it until forced to.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1427649038397100033

    "Taliban spokesperson- Our women are Muslims and they'll be happy to live within Sharia law"

    Of course they are ........

    As if they've got any choice.
    They've got a choice.

    They can be happy to live within Sharia law, or they can be happy to be brutally raped and murdered.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 92,790
    edited August 2021
    Cyclefree said:

    Afghanistan will embolden China geopolitically as they'll view it as a sign of terminal Western decadence and weakness.

    And they're right to think that.

    The US has told the Taliban: don't terrorise us and you can be free to terrorise your people as much as you like.

    Also even if terrorists return to Afghanistan and start planning attacks on the US from there, can anyone now really be confident that the US would retaliate? They might launch some drone or missile at some target that wouldn't eliminate anything at all. So the Taliban and any terror grouping that feels like it are probably free to do whatever they want.
    According to Morning Consult's new poll US voters support the withdrawal from Afghanistan overall by 49% to 37%.

    If it creates an opening for Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups to establish operations in Afghanistan again however then by 48% to 35% US voters believe there should still be a US military presence in Afghanistan.

    So whether by air strikes or ground troops if terrorists return the US would most likely respond with some form of military force

    https://morningconsult.com/2021/08/16/afghanistan-withdrawal-taliban-polling/

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,544
    In other Scottish news - this will interest a number of PBers given the recent discvussion of Rum
    :

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/17/kinloch-castle-curated-decay-ruin-scotland
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,590
    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1427649038397100033

    "Taliban spokesperson- Our women are Muslims and they'll be happy to live within Sharia law"

    Of course they are ........

    They will if they know the consequences for women of living outwith Sharia law.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,544
    edited August 2021


    .

    Joyous & Civic nuts.....

    "we have seized Edinburgh Castle".

    She continues: "We're waiting to restore the rule of law. We're doing this peacefully and we're doing this lawfully.

    "We are using article 61 of the Magna Carta. We have had enough. The people of Scotland have had enough and today we claim our power back.


    https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-castle-incident-large-police-21335855

    FullFact:

    https://fullfact.org/online/did-she-die-in-vain/

    Nothing to do with the nationalists. It's the anti-lockdown and anti-vaccine lot, which tend to be, erm, on the right wing of politics.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 11,590
    Carnyx said:

    In other Scottish news - this will interest a number of PBers given the recent discvussion of Rum
    :

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/17/kinloch-castle-curated-decay-ruin-scotland

    They say the Lion and the Lizard keep
    The Courts where Jamshýd gloried and drank deep:
    And Bahrám, that great Hunter--the Wild Ass
    Stamps o'er his Head, but cannot break his Sleep.

    But elf n safety: it will take the place centuries to fall down, and it'll be an insurance nightmare while it does.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,544
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    In other Scottish news - this will interest a number of PBers given the recent discvussion of Rum
    :

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/17/kinloch-castle-curated-decay-ruin-scotland

    They say the Lion and the Lizard keep
    The Courts where Jamshýd gloried and drank deep:
    And Bahrám, that great Hunter--the Wild Ass
    Stamps o'er his Head, but cannot break his Sleep.

    But elf n safety: it will take the place centuries to fall down, and it'll be an insurance nightmare while it does.
    IO think he means immediate conversion to a folly. But it's not too clear.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 18,299
    More like Nandon'ts, amiright?

    BBC News - Nando's shuts restaurants as it runs short of supplies

    https://twitter.com/donaeldunready/status/1427718254567510022


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58249337
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 70,000
    Scott_xP said:

    More like Nandon'ts, amiright?

    BBC News - Nando's shuts restaurants as it runs short of supplies

    https://twitter.com/donaeldunready/status/1427718254567510022


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58249337

    I didn't care when KFC experienced trouble, but this is far more serious.
  • kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    More like Nandon'ts, amiright?

    BBC News - Nando's shuts restaurants as it runs short of supplies

    https://twitter.com/donaeldunready/status/1427718254567510022


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58249337

    I didn't care when KFC experienced trouble, but this is far more serious.
    If Nando's shutting down was a part of Project Fear I'd have had to rethink my vote.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 1,569
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    In other Scottish news - this will interest a number of PBers given the recent discvussion of Rum
    :

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/17/kinloch-castle-curated-decay-ruin-scotland

    They say the Lion and the Lizard keep
    The Courts where Jamshýd gloried and drank deep:
    And Bahrám, that great Hunter--the Wild Ass
    Stamps o'er his Head, but cannot break his Sleep.

    But elf n safety: it will take the place centuries to fall down, and it'll be an insurance nightmare while it does.
    The rationale for letting the place go to rack and ruin is interesting, but it won't happen. Besides the fact that it would likely require primary legislation to override the existing protections afforded this specific building, stripping an edifice of protection and allowing it to fall into ruin because it is unfashionable and/or expensive to maintain would be hugely controversial. Once you allow one listed building to be abandoned, any landowner, community or organisation burdened with maintaining others can also appeal to be excused the trouble.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,544
    pigeon said:

    rpjs said:

    Joyous & Civic nuts.....

    "we have seized Edinburgh Castle".

    She continues: "We're waiting to restore the rule of law. We're doing this peacefully and we're doing this lawfully.

    "We are using article 61 of the Magna Carta. We have had enough. The people of Scotland have had enough and today we claim our power back.


    https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/edinburgh-castle-incident-large-police-21335855

    FullFact:

    https://fullfact.org/online/did-she-die-in-vain/

    Magna Carta extends to Scotland does it?
    No, and not only that, clause (not article) 61 extended to 25 Barons, not anybody else, and was dropped from the final version.

    Only four of the 63 clauses in Magna Carta are still valid today - 1 (part), 13, 39 and 40. Of enduring importance to people appealing to the charter over the last 800 years are the famous clauses 39 and 40:

    “No free man shall be seized, imprisoned, dispossessed, outlawed, exiled or ruined in any way, nor in any way proceeded against, except by the lawful judgement of his peers and the law of the land.

    “To no one will we sell, to no one will we deny or delay right or justice.”

    These clauses remain law today, and provided the basis for important principles in English law developed in the fourteenth through to the seventeenth century, and which were exported to America and other English-speaking countries. Their phrasing, ‘to no one' and ‘no free man' gave these provisions a universal quality that is still applicable today in a way that many of the clauses relating specifically to feudal custom are not.


    https://www.parliament.uk/about/living-heritage/evolutionofparliament/originsofparliament/birthofparliament/overview/magnacarta/magnacartaclauses/
    Has it been disclosed exactly what these people are protesting about in the first place, anyway?

    They might be cross about perceived infractions of the liberties of the English church for all we know...
    Clause 61 is the clue. It's much invoked by antilockdowners. No self-respecting independista would cite it when there are the Declaration of Arbroath and De iure regni apud Scotos to quote.
  • kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    More like Nandon'ts, amiright?

    BBC News - Nando's shuts restaurants as it runs short of supplies

    https://twitter.com/donaeldunready/status/1427718254567510022


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58249337

    I didn't care when KFC experienced trouble, but this is far more serious.
    Yes, but if the problem is the Pingdemic, that's pretty much over now and things will get back to normal over the next couple of weeks.

    Let's see.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 17,544
    pigeon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    In other Scottish news - this will interest a number of PBers given the recent discvussion of Rum
    :

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/17/kinloch-castle-curated-decay-ruin-scotland

    They say the Lion and the Lizard keep
    The Courts where Jamshýd gloried and drank deep:
    And Bahrám, that great Hunter--the Wild Ass
    Stamps o'er his Head, but cannot break his Sleep.

    But elf n safety: it will take the place centuries to fall down, and it'll be an insurance nightmare while it does.
    The rationale for letting the place go to rack and ruin is interesting, but it won't happen. Besides the fact that it would likely require primary legislation to override the existing protections afforded this specific building, stripping an edifice of protection and allowing it to fall into ruin because it is unfashionable and/or expensive to maintain would be hugely controversial. Once you allow one listed building to be abandoned, any landowner, community or organisation burdened with maintaining others can also appeal to be excused the trouble.
    It does already happen all the time, though. The owner lets a building rot till it begins to fall on people's heads, or if in a hurry some local ned will carry out a bit of urban improvement.
This discussion has been closed.