Some worrying statistics from America – politicalbetting.com
Comments
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Your daily reminder that the Taliban blew up the Buddhas of Bamiyan
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-31813681
"They brought in the explosives by truck," he says. "Then we carried them on our back or in our arms to the statues, or we tied big bombs to long sticks to carry them to the site."
"Working in the cold air of the early spring of 2001, he says the men were prepared for death at any moment, either in a blast or at the hands of the guards.
""Once I witnessed one of the men who had a bad leg and couldn't carry the explosives any more," he says. "The Taliban shot him on the spot and gave the body to another prisoner to dispose of.""
This is the force now taking Kabul. Nazis, basically.
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I love a true believer. You guys are solid gold.another_richard said:
Why would they take 50.1% now when they think they will get 51% next year, 52% the following year, 53% the year after that etc ?StuartDickson said:
It really is the only logical conclusion to draw.malcolmg said:
they are too scared for thatStuartDickson said:
Maybe. Maybe not. There is only one way to find out.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And they will vote to remain in the unionStuartDickson said:
The Scots will decide the future constitutional status of our country, not Boris Johnson.HYUFD said:
They don't, as long as Boris remains PM he has made clear he will refuse indyref2StuartDickson said:
How about the Boris Johnson exit date market?Gallowgate said:
I can’t think of a more depressing betting marketStuartDickson said:
Talking of trade unions, I’ve just spotted this new market:squareroot2 said:
Whereas i read on here that Labour was almost broke and could barely pay its head office staff. The Unions don't seem keen to cough up much at the moment.DecrepiterJohnL said:
In one year, Conservative Party membership increased by 50 per cent. That's ordinary Conservatives enthused by Boris, you understand, and not entryists as you'd suspect with Labour. 2018, 120,000 members; 2019, 180,000. So be slightly careful in guessing which way members will vote in any leadership election. Past performance may be no guide.eek said:
It will always be the more extreme of the two members presented to them by the filtering committee of Tory MPsStuartinromford said:
Consider also that, at least since party leaders were chosen by members, the standard response to defeat is to double down on what the members want and moderation can go to hell.StuartDickson said:
So, what is more likely?OldKingCole said:
In fairness, Commander(?) Ace, the situation cannot be fixed by THIS Tory government; up until 2015 one could reasonably say that Tory governments were, generally speaking, pro-Europe.Dura_Ace said:With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...
They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.
However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.
It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.
It's only under Johnson and his acolytes that the party has become rabid English Nationalists.
1. the Conservative Party abandoning English Nationalism and becoming pro-Europe again, or
2. a government of a different political complexion taking power
Because one of those two things has to happen to solve the informal transmanche regatta.
Path 2 seems far more likely than path 1.
Suppose the Conservatives lose in 2024. Is the next LotO more likely to be a "Brexit with a human face" type (Hunt, say) or a "Boris's problem was he was just too soft on Europe, bless him" character (Patel or JRM, for example)?
Best prices - Unite General Secretary election
Steve Turner 10/11
Gerard Coyne 2/1
Sharon Graham 11/4
2024 or later 4/6
At least the Scots have an exit route.
Another No win, even by 50.1% to 49.9%, would put the issue to bed for half a century. We’d be in a Quebec scenario.
If the Unionists thought they could get that 50.1% they’d take it in a flash. Cummings and Gove think they could, and they might be right, but very few other Unionists do. The big giveaway is that the Unionists with a true, deep understanding of the lie of the land in the villages and towns of Scotland - the Lib Dem and Labour activists - are also strongly against holding a fresh independence referendum. They can see clearly how it would go.
The trend seems to be towards the unionists, which is why you nats want a referendum asap.0 -
Most of the questioning by the presenter is centered on women (and rightly so they will be the ones likely to suffer most under Taliban rule), whether they will be losing their freedoms like education, able to leave their houses alone, clothing they can wear etc.Taz said:
What did he/she/they say ?jonny83 said:Taliban spokesman on BBC news. Chilling, got to feel for the people of Afghanistan, especially women.
The spokesman said women will have access to education, but reports on the ground are they have already stopped that. The Hijab will be enforced.
Islamic rules and law and courts will be imposed. Presenter tried to get answers on whether they are going back to stoning, public executions and amputations will be coming back, spokesman says the courts will decide and impose the law.
Question around if the Taliban will allow people to leave freely, spokesman said they don't want people to leave. The Islamic state will need them. Calling on people to stay.0 -
You have to wonder whether this isn't going to end up being Cambodia all over again.StuartDickson said:
We were listening to some poor female film director in Kabul. She was absolutely distraught. Literally terrified. It was so distressing my mother asked me to switch the radio off. Just before I got to the switch the Kabul lady said she was facing a new holocaust.jonny83 said:Taliban spokesman on BBC news. Chilling, got to feel for the people of Afghanistan, especially women.
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Afghanistan is looking to be an absolute catastrophe.0
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You’re doing yourself down there.StuartDickson said:
I thought I was boring, but FUDHY really does take the biscuit.Carnyx said:
That's a really original and interesting hypothesis. Do you think you could repeat it, like, maybe 246 times in 77 threads? I can then design a new Antikythera Mechanism to replace you on this site.HYUFD said:
Not necessarily, the latest poll is 52% No but once in a generation is once in a generationeek said:
Given that you didn't answer the actual point, which is that Boris knows he will lose a referendum I assume you agree thag Scotland woulc currently vote for independence so you don't want to ffer them the chance.HYUFD said:
No it wouldn't, you Nationalists would be arguing for indyref3 the next day.StuartDickson said:
It really is the only logical conclusion to draw.malcolmg said:
they are too scared for thatStuartDickson said:
Maybe. Maybe not. There is only one way to find out.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And they will vote to remain in the unionStuartDickson said:
The Scots will decide the future constitutional status of our country, not Boris Johnson.HYUFD said:
They don't, as long as Boris remains PM he has made clear he will refuse indyref2StuartDickson said:
How about the Boris Johnson exit date market?Gallowgate said:
I can’t think of a more depressing betting marketStuartDickson said:
Talking of trade unions, I’ve just spotted this new market:squareroot2 said:
Whereas i read on here that Labour was almost broke and could barely pay its head office staff. The Unions don't seem keen to cough up much at the moment.DecrepiterJohnL said:
In one year, Conservative Party membership increased by 50 per cent. That's ordinary Conservatives enthused by Boris, you understand, and not entryists as you'd suspect with Labour. 2018, 120,000 members; 2019, 180,000. So be slightly careful in guessing which way members will vote in any leadership election. Past performance may be no guide.eek said:
It will always be the more extreme of the two members presented to them by the filtering committee of Tory MPsStuartinromford said:
Consider also that, at least since party leaders were chosen by members, the standard response to defeat is to double down on what the members want and moderation can go to hell.StuartDickson said:
So, what is more likely?OldKingCole said:
In fairness, Commander(?) Ace, the situation cannot be fixed by THIS Tory government; up until 2015 one could reasonably say that Tory governments were, generally speaking, pro-Europe.Dura_Ace said:With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...
They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.
However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.
It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.
It's only under Johnson and his acolytes that the party has become rabid English Nationalists.
1. the Conservative Party abandoning English Nationalism and becoming pro-Europe again, or
2. a government of a different political complexion taking power
Because one of those two things has to happen to solve the informal transmanche regatta.
Path 2 seems far more likely than path 1.
Suppose the Conservatives lose in 2024. Is the next LotO more likely to be a "Brexit with a human face" type (Hunt, say) or a "Boris's problem was he was just too soft on Europe, bless him" character (Patel or JRM, for example)?
Best prices - Unite General Secretary election
Steve Turner 10/11
Gerard Coyne 2/1
Sharon Graham 11/4
2024 or later 4/6
At least the Scots have an exit route.
Another No win, even by 50.1% to 49.9%, would put the issue to bed for half a century. We’d be in a Quebec scenario.
If the Unionists thought they could get that 50.1% they’d take it in a flash. Cummings and Gove think they could, and they might be right, but very few other Unionists do. The big giveaway is that the Unionists with a true, deep understanding of the lie of the land in the villages and towns of Scotland - the Lib Dem and Labour activists - are also strongly against holding a fresh independence referendum. They can see clearly how it would go.
Once in a generation means precisely that
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1424074941381713921?s=201 -
Thanksjonny83 said:
Most of the questioning by the presenter is centered on women (and rightly so they will be the ones likely to suffer most under Taliban rule), whether they will be losing their freedoms like education, able to leave their houses alone, clothing they can wear etc.Taz said:
What did he/she/they say ?jonny83 said:Taliban spokesman on BBC news. Chilling, got to feel for the people of Afghanistan, especially women.
The spokesman said women will have access to education, but reports on the ground are they have already stopped that. The Hijab will be enforced.
Islamic rules and law and courts will be imposed. Presenter tried to get answers on whether they are going back to stoning, public executions and amputations will be coming back, spokesman says the courts will decide and impose the law.
Question around if the Taliban will allow people to leave freely, spokesman said they don't want people to leave. The Islamic state will need them. Calling on people to stay.0 -
'Take the vaccine and you can burn your mask' might be an effective policy.kinabalu said:Morning all, so on topic, someone it'd be nice to not have to talk about, but we're sadly not there yet, Donald Trump.
With few exceptions a rational adult acting rationally will get vaccinated against Covid if it's available to them. They'll do it for themselves and for the wider community. Both selfishly and altruistically it's a slam dunk of a decision not meriting more than a moment's hesitation. It's a (literal) no brainer.
One person who knows this is the aforesaid Donald Trump and he acted accordingly. He got the jab that a big chunk of his base, those many millions of 'not the brightest but not necessarily terrible' people who look up to him, are shunning. A chance here then, you'd have thought, for him to have an impact - a benign one for a change. It wouldn't take much effort. Just put a clear message out there in that trademark dumbed down and oddly effective syntax that the vaccine is safe, and everybody should do the right thing and get it. He could even, if he wanted, slip in some boasting about how this silver bullet with pandemic ending potential was created on his watch. Go Donald. Do something good. Just this once. It won't kill you. You won't even get a rash.
But no. In typical 'right wing populist pissing on the patio' style he sees benefit to himself in pushing the chips in precisely the opposite direction. He weighs it all up and decides to make the situation worse. He comes out with this:
"People are refusing to take the Vaccine because they don't trust his (Biden's) Administration, they don't trust the Election results, and they certainly don't trust the Fake News, which is refusing to tell the Truth."
Let's help the virus kill more Americans, why the fuck not.
We're not short of things to illustrate why this ghastly human being mustn't get anywhere near the White House again, but here is one more.
The US focus on masks rather than vaccines seems strange here.1 -
Yes, I don't believe a word of this. The Taliban has not changed, the same ways Nazis could not changeTheuniondivvie said:Hmm
alex thomson
@alextomo
3m
Taiiban spokesman- calling for national unity No security threat to anyone in Kabul. Women will be educated and allowed to work so long as their heads are covered
For comparison, the Khmer Rouge made similar noises as they entered Phnom Penh - conciliatory, peaceful, calming - because of course they wanted as little resistance as possible. Some of the citizens even welcomed them.
I know a French photographer, Roland Neveu, who was one of very few journalists who stayed in the Cambodian capital throughout the Khmer Rouge takeover - he got a series of iconic shots of the chaos.
He told me he started the day as a communist, and ended it hating communism, as he saw the real intentions of the Khmer Rouge: driving the citizens into the countryside, blowing up the shops and banks, shooting all the artists and intellectuals (and then many many others)
I fear the Taliban reconquest will be a slow motion version of that. They will start off reasonably docile (by their standards) but they will soon revert to their standard horrific brutality4 -
The UK must do its fair share and take a large number of Afghanistan's refugees. We must not let Patel's ridiculous rhetoric get in the way, who is going to oppose such an action?0
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Hate to be picky but since you're making claims about polling which is what we do here, the actual number is a little over half of *Republicans*, ie a quarter of America:contrarian said:
Of course if you look at the polls, almost half of America thinks Trump won, with a chunk of the rest 'unsure'.kjh said:
It is difficult to interpret that collection of words, but if you are suggesting that other than the really true nutters think Trump won the answer is no. What camp are you in?contrarian said:
You know the conspiracy theory that Trump won?Andy_JS said:Does this mean Biden's honeymoon period is definitively over? (This being the Taliban taking Kabul).
I wonder if we that expect that view to emerge from places other than just the depths of the populist right, from here on in.About one-quarter of adults believe the Nov. 3 election was tainted by illegal voting, including 56% of Republicans, according to the poll. The figures were roughly the same in a poll that ran from Nov. 13-17 which found that 28% of all Americans and 59% of Republicans felt that way.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/05/24/poll-majority-of-the-gop-believes-trump-won-the-election/0 -
I am aghast. And yet, outside of us political geeks and enthusiasts, it is largely passing with a decadent shrug of the shoulders.CorrectHorseBattery said:Afghanistan is looking to be an absolute catastrophe.
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The chances of Biden standing again in 2024 must have taken a significant hit with today's news from Kabul.0
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You really think that all English people are unionists don't you.StuartDickson said:
I love a true believer. You guys are solid gold.another_richard said:
Why would they take 50.1% now when they think they will get 51% next year, 52% the following year, 53% the year after that etc ?StuartDickson said:
It really is the only logical conclusion to draw.malcolmg said:
they are too scared for thatStuartDickson said:
Maybe. Maybe not. There is only one way to find out.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And they will vote to remain in the unionStuartDickson said:
The Scots will decide the future constitutional status of our country, not Boris Johnson.HYUFD said:
They don't, as long as Boris remains PM he has made clear he will refuse indyref2StuartDickson said:
How about the Boris Johnson exit date market?Gallowgate said:
I can’t think of a more depressing betting marketStuartDickson said:
Talking of trade unions, I’ve just spotted this new market:squareroot2 said:
Whereas i read on here that Labour was almost broke and could barely pay its head office staff. The Unions don't seem keen to cough up much at the moment.DecrepiterJohnL said:
In one year, Conservative Party membership increased by 50 per cent. That's ordinary Conservatives enthused by Boris, you understand, and not entryists as you'd suspect with Labour. 2018, 120,000 members; 2019, 180,000. So be slightly careful in guessing which way members will vote in any leadership election. Past performance may be no guide.eek said:
It will always be the more extreme of the two members presented to them by the filtering committee of Tory MPsStuartinromford said:
Consider also that, at least since party leaders were chosen by members, the standard response to defeat is to double down on what the members want and moderation can go to hell.StuartDickson said:
So, what is more likely?OldKingCole said:
In fairness, Commander(?) Ace, the situation cannot be fixed by THIS Tory government; up until 2015 one could reasonably say that Tory governments were, generally speaking, pro-Europe.Dura_Ace said:With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...
They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.
However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.
It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.
It's only under Johnson and his acolytes that the party has become rabid English Nationalists.
1. the Conservative Party abandoning English Nationalism and becoming pro-Europe again, or
2. a government of a different political complexion taking power
Because one of those two things has to happen to solve the informal transmanche regatta.
Path 2 seems far more likely than path 1.
Suppose the Conservatives lose in 2024. Is the next LotO more likely to be a "Brexit with a human face" type (Hunt, say) or a "Boris's problem was he was just too soft on Europe, bless him" character (Patel or JRM, for example)?
Best prices - Unite General Secretary election
Steve Turner 10/11
Gerard Coyne 2/1
Sharon Graham 11/4
2024 or later 4/6
At least the Scots have an exit route.
Another No win, even by 50.1% to 49.9%, would put the issue to bed for half a century. We’d be in a Quebec scenario.
If the Unionists thought they could get that 50.1% they’d take it in a flash. Cummings and Gove think they could, and they might be right, but very few other Unionists do. The big giveaway is that the Unionists with a true, deep understanding of the lie of the land in the villages and towns of Scotland - the Lib Dem and Labour activists - are also strongly against holding a fresh independence referendum. They can see clearly how it would go.
The trend seems to be towards the unionists, which is why you nats want a referendum asap.
Your ignorance is solid gold.0 -
Is Biden getting grief from any senior Democrats? Or are they all supporting him/keeping quiet?0
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When the next poll out shows American support for withdrawing from Afghanistan has increased I will dub the PB reaction as BDS.0
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It's annoying how people like this are only able to say what they like because of Western notions of free speech that are mostly non-existent in other parts of the world.Leon said:
Jesus Christ that guy's Twitter feed. And he's a British Muslim. OdiousDougSeal said:Gotta love the first six words in this Tweet “Say what you like about the Taliban, at least the trains ran on time”
Roshan M Salih
@RmSalih
Whatever you think of the Taliban their seemingly imminent victory is a historic defeat of colonialism and imperialism. This should be the main narrative of media around the world, rather than the red herrings about women's rights etc that we are being sold.0 -
Parliament to be recalled...to do what exactly? Invade?1
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I went to Cambodia a few years ago; I wouldn't wish to hear the tales I was told, or see the sights, again. Horrific. Piles of bones and skulls.Leon said:
Yes, I don't believe a word of this. The Taliban has not changed, the same ways Nazis could not changeTheuniondivvie said:Hmm
alex thomson
@alextomo
3m
Taiiban spokesman- calling for national unity No security threat to anyone in Kabul. Women will be educated and allowed to work so long as their heads are covered
For comparison, the Khmer Rouge made similar noises as they entered Phnom Penh - conciliatory, peaceful, calming - because of course they wanted as little resistance as possible. Some of the citizens even welcomed them.
I know a French photographer, Roland Neveu, who was one of very few journalists who stayed in the Cambodian capital throughout the Khmer Rouge takeover - he got a series of iconic shots of the chaos.
He told me he started the day as a communist, and ended it hating communism, as he saw the real intentions of the Khmer Rouge: driving the citizens into the countryside, blowing up the shops and banks, shooting all the artists and intellectuals (and then many many others)
I fear the Taliban reconquest will be a slow motion version of that. They will start off reasonably docile (by their standards) but they will soon revert to their standard horrific brutality0 -
Have a bit of a moan, say they are worried and do absolutely nothing.CorrectHorseBattery said:Parliament to be recalled...to do what exactly? Invade?
1 -
You what?darkage said:
I am aghast. And yet, outside of us political geeks and enthusiasts, it is largely passing with a decadent shrug of the shoulders.CorrectHorseBattery said:Afghanistan is looking to be an absolute catastrophe.
It's the lead news on BBC, Sky, CNN, Fox, NYT, and very prominent on CBS, MSNBC, etc1 -
https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214Leon said:It's like some grand cosmic joke
"US miilitary helicopters evacuate the US Embassy in Kabul as the Taliban enter the city"
https://twitter.com/alfonslopeztena/status/1426832837710426113?s=20
I refuse to believe Biden and Harris and Co sat down and thought "Yes this will happen, the whole Saigon thing, and it will be worth it"
They have fucked up catastrophically, it is a total humiliation for the USA and a moment of real danger for the West
Biden: "There's going to be no circumstance where you're going to see people being lifted off the roof of an embassy of the United States from Afghanistan."1 -
Why is it annoying? Shouldn't you and Tobes Young be applauding this marvellous example of free speech?Andy_JS said:
It's annoying how people like this are only able to say what they like because of Western notions of free speech that are mostly non-existent in other parts of the world.Leon said:
Jesus Christ that guy's Twitter feed. And he's a British Muslim. OdiousDougSeal said:Gotta love the first six words in this Tweet “Say what you like about the Taliban, at least the trains ran on time”
Roshan M Salih
@RmSalih
Whatever you think of the Taliban their seemingly imminent victory is a historic defeat of colonialism and imperialism. This should be the main narrative of media around the world, rather than the red herrings about women's rights etc that we are being sold.3 -
It'll be a natural showcase for the talents of our once Foreign Secretary now Prime Minister.CorrectHorseBattery said:Parliament to be recalled...to do what exactly? Invade?
2 -
Not Nazis. Like IS - certainly in their approach to non-Islamic cultures (destroying them) and women (sexual slaves) and the imposition of sharia law.Leon said:Your daily reminder that the Taliban blew up the Buddhas of Bamiyan
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-31813681
"They brought in the explosives by truck," he says. "Then we carried them on our back or in our arms to the statues, or we tied big bombs to long sticks to carry them to the site."
"Working in the cold air of the early spring of 2001, he says the men were prepared for death at any moment, either in a blast or at the hands of the guards.
""Once I witnessed one of the men who had a bad leg and couldn't carry the explosives any more," he says. "The Taliban shot him on the spot and gave the body to another prisoner to dispose of.""
This is the force now taking Kabul. Nazis, basically.
That is what the US has let happen. Perhaps it could not have been otherwise. I don't know. But regardless of whether the Taliban allow terrorist training camps in the country, this Taliban victory will inspire and embolden Islamist terrorists everywhere.1 -
Don't be ridiculous. There is lots to do, huge amounts of blame and responsibility to be avoided, narratives to set etc. They certainly would not want to look completely ineffectual and pointless, would they?jonny83 said:
Have a bit of a moan, say they are worried and do absolutely nothing.CorrectHorseBattery said:Parliament to be recalled...to do what exactly? Invade?
3 -
Annoying - yes. But instructive also. It is not new his view. Seem to recall that there were people saying much the same when the Khomeinin government started attacking women's rights in Iran as soon as it got into power.Andy_JS said:
It's annoying how people like this are only able to say what they like because of Western notions of free speech that are mostly non-existent in other parts of the world.Leon said:
Jesus Christ that guy's Twitter feed. And he's a British Muslim. OdiousDougSeal said:Gotta love the first six words in this Tweet “Say what you like about the Taliban, at least the trains ran on time”
Roshan M Salih
@RmSalih
Whatever you think of the Taliban their seemingly imminent victory is a historic defeat of colonialism and imperialism. This should be the main narrative of media around the world, rather than the red herrings about women's rights etc that we are being sold.
Worth remembering when the same people start going on about women's rights here. They don't really believe in them.1 -
They'll either be discussing what to do about British citizens still in the country and effective hostages or why Britain cannot possibly provide asylum to Afghan refugees, not even those Afghans who worked for it. Or both. It will be a festival of impotent sound and fury.CorrectHorseBattery said:Parliament to be recalled...to do what exactly? Invade?
2 -
I'll bet you the non-mortgaged portion of my house that the phrase 'lessons will/should be learned' will rear its ugly head.DavidL said:
Don't be ridiculous. There is lots to do, huge amounts of blame and responsibility to be avoided, narratives to set etc. They certainly would not want to look completely ineffectual and pointless, would they?jonny83 said:
Have a bit of a moan, say they are worried and do absolutely nothing.CorrectHorseBattery said:Parliament to be recalled...to do what exactly? Invade?
4 -
Incredibly, they seem to be using the exact same model of Chinook helicopter, to do the whole US embassy roof cutting-and-running thingwilliamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214Leon said:It's like some grand cosmic joke
"US miilitary helicopters evacuate the US Embassy in Kabul as the Taliban enter the city"
https://twitter.com/alfonslopeztena/status/1426832837710426113?s=20
I refuse to believe Biden and Harris and Co sat down and thought "Yes this will happen, the whole Saigon thing, and it will be worth it"
They have fucked up catastrophically, it is a total humiliation for the USA and a moment of real danger for the West
Biden: "There's going to be no circumstance where you're going to see people being lifted off the roof of an embassy of the United States from Afghanistan."1 -
If we abandon these refugees the Government deserves to be unpopular and never be elected again. Despicable behaviour but I bet it is already on Priti Useless Patel's mindCyclefree said:
They'll either be discussing what to do about British citizens still in the country and effective hostages or why Britain cannot possibly provide asylum to Afghan refugees, not even those Afghans who worked for it. Or both. It will be a festival of impotent sound and fury.CorrectHorseBattery said:Parliament to be recalled...to do what exactly? Invade?
0 -
Shocking the quality of that footage. Looks like it was filmed on a cheap camera phone.CorrectHorseBattery said:0 -
Well, of course it is. But this is the old world. Because most people get their news elsewhere, to the extent that they watch the news at all; it just passes them by and they switch off from it. Thats the problem with the plurality of media arising from the Internet: the situation is not a suez or a saigon or even a 9/11 because it isn't in peoples faces and they can choose to switch off from it.Leon said:
You what?darkage said:
I am aghast. And yet, outside of us political geeks and enthusiasts, it is largely passing with a decadent shrug of the shoulders.CorrectHorseBattery said:Afghanistan is looking to be an absolute catastrophe.
It's the lead news on BBC, Sky, CNN, Fox, NYT, and very prominent on CBS, MSNBC, etc
I doubt there will be any candlelit vigils or protests about what is going on in Afghanistan.0 -
And shame.Cyclefree said:
They'll either be discussing what to do about British citizens still in the country and effective hostages or why Britain cannot possibly provide asylum to Afghan refugees, not even those Afghans who worked for it. Or both. It will be a festival of impotent sound and fury.CorrectHorseBattery said:Parliament to be recalled...to do what exactly? Invade?
0 -
Pujara's not looking for a hundred contract any time soon I expect
1 -
It does seem the US government had absolutely no idea about Afghanistan beyond the poshos and troughers of central Kabul.williamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214Leon said:It's like some grand cosmic joke
"US miilitary helicopters evacuate the US Embassy in Kabul as the Taliban enter the city"
https://twitter.com/alfonslopeztena/status/1426832837710426113?s=20
I refuse to believe Biden and Harris and Co sat down and thought "Yes this will happen, the whole Saigon thing, and it will be worth it"
They have fucked up catastrophically, it is a total humiliation for the USA and a moment of real danger for the West
Biden: "There's going to be no circumstance where you're going to see people being lifted off the roof of an embassy of the United States from Afghanistan."
As a military fiasco this is way, way beyond South Vietnam.
South Vietnam lasted over two years from the withdrawal of US forces and only fell to a proper invasion by an outside army.1 -
0
-
If parliament was nt recalled you'd be screaming for it to be done.. like yesterday.CorrectHorseBattery said:Parliament to be recalled...to do what exactly? Invade?
0 -
Having problems with your keyboard felix? Maybe try not mashing your head into itfelix said:
If parliament was nt recalled you'd be screaming for it to be done.. like yesterday.CorrectHorseBattery said:Parliament to be recalled...to do what exactly? Invade?
0 -
Saigon was a UH-1H. Kabul was a CH-47D. Stick to reviewing salads.Leon said:
Incredibly, they seem to be using the exact same model of Chinook helicopter, to do the whole US embassy roof cutting-and-running thingwilliamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214Leon said:It's like some grand cosmic joke
"US miilitary helicopters evacuate the US Embassy in Kabul as the Taliban enter the city"
https://twitter.com/alfonslopeztena/status/1426832837710426113?s=20
I refuse to believe Biden and Harris and Co sat down and thought "Yes this will happen, the whole Saigon thing, and it will be worth it"
They have fucked up catastrophically, it is a total humiliation for the USA and a moment of real danger for the West
Biden: "There's going to be no circumstance where you're going to see people being lifted off the roof of an embassy of the United States from Afghanistan."3 -
Possible lessons:Theuniondivvie said:
I'll bet you the non-mortgaged portion of my house that the phrase 'lessons will/should be learned' will rear its ugly head.DavidL said:
Don't be ridiculous. There is lots to do, huge amounts of blame and responsibility to be avoided, narratives to set etc. They certainly would not want to look completely ineffectual and pointless, would they?jonny83 said:
Have a bit of a moan, say they are worried and do absolutely nothing.CorrectHorseBattery said:Parliament to be recalled...to do what exactly? Invade?
(1) Attempting to impose western values on countries that have a culture that is deeply inimical to them is doomed to failure.
(2) The money and resources spent on being embedded and building up domestic forces who have no interest in fighting for said values is completely wasted and the activity is delusional.
(3) Pakistan is not our friend. Not even close to being a friend.
(4) Modern softy democracies are not capable of sustaining a war effort that produces material numbers of body bags over an extended period (which may or may not be a good thing).
6 -
Was Saigon not Hueys?Leon said:
Incredibly, they seem to be using the exact same model of Chinook helicopter, to do the whole US embassy roof cutting-and-running thingwilliamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214Leon said:It's like some grand cosmic joke
"US miilitary helicopters evacuate the US Embassy in Kabul as the Taliban enter the city"
https://twitter.com/alfonslopeztena/status/1426832837710426113?s=20
I refuse to believe Biden and Harris and Co sat down and thought "Yes this will happen, the whole Saigon thing, and it will be worth it"
They have fucked up catastrophically, it is a total humiliation for the USA and a moment of real danger for the West
Biden: "There's going to be no circumstance where you're going to see people being lifted off the roof of an embassy of the United States from Afghanistan."1 -
An absolute disaster for Joe Biden0
-
Any news from Suez today?0
-
The reality is that they have just abandoned the state that they have built up in Afghanistan; why wouldn't they do the same to the refugees?CorrectHorseBattery said:
If we abandon these refugees the Government deserves to be unpopular and never be elected again. Despicable behaviour but I bet it is already on Priti Useless Patel's mindCyclefree said:
They'll either be discussing what to do about British citizens still in the country and effective hostages or why Britain cannot possibly provide asylum to Afghan refugees, not even those Afghans who worked for it. Or both. It will be a festival of impotent sound and fury.CorrectHorseBattery said:Parliament to be recalled...to do what exactly? Invade?
0 -
And America should take its fair share too, not just the UK, want to make that absolutely clear0
-
Isn’t the point that there was not and never was a state?darkage said:
The reality is that they have just abandoned the state that they have built up in Afghanistan; why wouldn't they do the same to the refugees?CorrectHorseBattery said:
If we abandon these refugees the Government deserves to be unpopular and never be elected again. Despicable behaviour but I bet it is already on Priti Useless Patel's mindCyclefree said:
They'll either be discussing what to do about British citizens still in the country and effective hostages or why Britain cannot possibly provide asylum to Afghan refugees, not even those Afghans who worked for it. Or both. It will be a festival of impotent sound and fury.CorrectHorseBattery said:Parliament to be recalled...to do what exactly? Invade?
0 -
(5) The people you meet in the city centres may not be typical of a country as a whole.DavidL said:
Possible lessons:Theuniondivvie said:
I'll bet you the non-mortgaged portion of my house that the phrase 'lessons will/should be learned' will rear its ugly head.DavidL said:
Don't be ridiculous. There is lots to do, huge amounts of blame and responsibility to be avoided, narratives to set etc. They certainly would not want to look completely ineffectual and pointless, would they?jonny83 said:
Have a bit of a moan, say they are worried and do absolutely nothing.CorrectHorseBattery said:Parliament to be recalled...to do what exactly? Invade?
(1) Attempting to impose western values on countries that have a culture that is deeply inimical to them is doomed to failure.
(2) The money and resources spent on being embedded and building up domestic forces who have no interest in fighting for said values is completely wasted and the activity is delusional.
(3) Pakistan is not our friend. Not even close to being a friend.
(4) Modern softy democracies are not capable of sustaining a war effort that produces material numbers of body bags over an extended period (which may or may not be a good thing).3 -
lol. I will bow to your superior knowledge on helicopters, so fair enough.Dura_Ace said:
Saigon was a UH-1H. Kabul was a CH-47D. Stick to reviewing salads.Leon said:
Incredibly, they seem to be using the exact same model of Chinook helicopter, to do the whole US embassy roof cutting-and-running thingwilliamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214Leon said:It's like some grand cosmic joke
"US miilitary helicopters evacuate the US Embassy in Kabul as the Taliban enter the city"
https://twitter.com/alfonslopeztena/status/1426832837710426113?s=20
I refuse to believe Biden and Harris and Co sat down and thought "Yes this will happen, the whole Saigon thing, and it will be worth it"
They have fucked up catastrophically, it is a total humiliation for the USA and a moment of real danger for the West
Biden: "There's going to be no circumstance where you're going to see people being lifted off the roof of an embassy of the United States from Afghanistan."
But they do look awfully similar here:
https://twitter.com/bswagspeare/status/1426872670851792901?s=20
However they look so similar I wonder if that Saigon photo is faked0 -
And the rest of NATO?CorrectHorseBattery said:And America should take its fair share too, not just the UK, want to make that absolutely clear
0 -
I've been watching the airport in Kabul on Flightradar. About an hour ago an emirates plane from dubai failed to land, presumably sent back on the instructions of the americans. A flight just took off to Islamabad. I'm wondering if thats going to be the last one out.0
-
Yestlg86 said:
And the rest of NATO?CorrectHorseBattery said:And America should take its fair share too, not just the UK, want to make that absolutely clear
0 -
I think the confusion may be that the last helicopter was the one with the Marines guards, leaving from the grounds - it is a CH-46 Sea Knight by the way, not the similarly configured CH-47 - once the last had left from the roof (which was the famous photo, and [edit] a Huey UH-1, of course).The CH-46 still survives, apparently:Leon said:
lol. I will bow to your superior knowledge on helicopters, so fair enough.Dura_Ace said:
Saigon was a UH-1H. Kabul was a CH-47D. Stick to reviewing salads.Leon said:
Incredibly, they seem to be using the exact same model of Chinook helicopter, to do the whole US embassy roof cutting-and-running thingwilliamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214Leon said:It's like some grand cosmic joke
"US miilitary helicopters evacuate the US Embassy in Kabul as the Taliban enter the city"
https://twitter.com/alfonslopeztena/status/1426832837710426113?s=20
I refuse to believe Biden and Harris and Co sat down and thought "Yes this will happen, the whole Saigon thing, and it will be worth it"
They have fucked up catastrophically, it is a total humiliation for the USA and a moment of real danger for the West
Biden: "There's going to be no circumstance where you're going to see people being lifted off the roof of an embassy of the United States from Afghanistan."
But they do look awfully similar here:
https://twitter.com/bswagspeare/status/1426872670851792901?s=20
However they look so similar I wonder if that Saigon photo is faked
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LMH0f2CpL80 -
It's a horrible approach and Biden has clearly fucked it with Afghanistan but the point is to highlight the rank hypocrisy of people supporting the latest Boris move with "but he's popular".tlg86 said:
Politics by opinion polls? I thought that’s what people on here criticised Boris Johnson for?Alistair said:When the next poll out shows American support for withdrawing from Afghanistan has increased I will dub the PB reaction as BDS.
0 -
Yes, we have Kohli!
Game on.0 -
I don't think there will be many refugees. Afghanistan will seal itself off - like Cambodia in 1975. Only those lucky few who flee now will get out, and maybe some people who can smuggle themselves over the borderCorrectHorseBattery said:And America should take its fair share too, not just the UK, want to make that absolutely clear
There won't be a mass exodus, the Taliban won't allow it. There are already shots of the Taliban taking control of border crossings
"LATEST: Officials say Taliban now hold all of Afghanistan's border crossings, leaving Kabul airport as only route out,
@AP"
https://twitter.com/business/status/1426803252524367872?s=201 -
So they are both Chinooks?Carnyx said:
I think the confusion may be that the last helicopter was the one with the Marines guards, leaving from the grounds - it is a CH-46 Sea Knight by the way, not the similarly configured CH-47 - once the last had left from the roof (which was the famous photo, and [edit] a Huey UH-1, of course).The CH-46 still survives, apparently:Leon said:
lol. I will bow to your superior knowledge on helicopters, so fair enough.Dura_Ace said:
Saigon was a UH-1H. Kabul was a CH-47D. Stick to reviewing salads.Leon said:
Incredibly, they seem to be using the exact same model of Chinook helicopter, to do the whole US embassy roof cutting-and-running thingwilliamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214Leon said:It's like some grand cosmic joke
"US miilitary helicopters evacuate the US Embassy in Kabul as the Taliban enter the city"
https://twitter.com/alfonslopeztena/status/1426832837710426113?s=20
I refuse to believe Biden and Harris and Co sat down and thought "Yes this will happen, the whole Saigon thing, and it will be worth it"
They have fucked up catastrophically, it is a total humiliation for the USA and a moment of real danger for the West
Biden: "There's going to be no circumstance where you're going to see people being lifted off the roof of an embassy of the United States from Afghanistan."
But they do look awfully similar here:
https://twitter.com/bswagspeare/status/1426872670851792901?s=20
However they look so similar I wonder if that Saigon photo is faked
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LMH0f2CpL8
AHA. In your face, Dura Ace, you stupid creepy suicidal antivaxxing motorpervert weirdo0 -
Both are correct but the really famous pic/footage is of a Bell UH-1 from the tiny landing pad.Leon said:
lol. I will bow to your superior knowledge on helicopters, so fair enough.Dura_Ace said:
Saigon was a UH-1H. Kabul was a CH-47D. Stick to reviewing salads.Leon said:
Incredibly, they seem to be using the exact same model of Chinook helicopter, to do the whole US embassy roof cutting-and-running thingwilliamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214Leon said:It's like some grand cosmic joke
"US miilitary helicopters evacuate the US Embassy in Kabul as the Taliban enter the city"
https://twitter.com/alfonslopeztena/status/1426832837710426113?s=20
I refuse to believe Biden and Harris and Co sat down and thought "Yes this will happen, the whole Saigon thing, and it will be worth it"
They have fucked up catastrophically, it is a total humiliation for the USA and a moment of real danger for the West
Biden: "There's going to be no circumstance where you're going to see people being lifted off the roof of an embassy of the United States from Afghanistan."
But they do look awfully similar here:
https://twitter.com/bswagspeare/status/1426872670851792901?s=20
However they look so similar I wonder if that Saigon photo is faked1 -
That's what I was remembering, sliding off the pad as desperate people tried to hang on to the landing gear.Theuniondivvie said:
Both are correct but the really famous pic/footage is of a Bell UH-1 from the tiny landing pad.Leon said:
lol. I will bow to your superior knowledge on helicopters, so fair enough.Dura_Ace said:
Saigon was a UH-1H. Kabul was a CH-47D. Stick to reviewing salads.Leon said:
Incredibly, they seem to be using the exact same model of Chinook helicopter, to do the whole US embassy roof cutting-and-running thingwilliamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214Leon said:It's like some grand cosmic joke
"US miilitary helicopters evacuate the US Embassy in Kabul as the Taliban enter the city"
https://twitter.com/alfonslopeztena/status/1426832837710426113?s=20
I refuse to believe Biden and Harris and Co sat down and thought "Yes this will happen, the whole Saigon thing, and it will be worth it"
They have fucked up catastrophically, it is a total humiliation for the USA and a moment of real danger for the West
Biden: "There's going to be no circumstance where you're going to see people being lifted off the roof of an embassy of the United States from Afghanistan."
But they do look awfully similar here:
https://twitter.com/bswagspeare/status/1426872670851792901?s=20
However they look so similar I wonder if that Saigon photo is faked0 -
No, sorry to disappoint you: the CH-46 and CH-47 look similar with a rotor at each end, but are quite different types. Look at the wheels in the Saigon photo in the threadf you posted - 3 undercarriage legs; a Chinook or Wokka has four, one at each corner (and is generally longer and more shoeboxy).Leon said:
So they are both Chinooks?Carnyx said:
I think the confusion may be that the last helicopter was the one with the Marines guards, leaving from the grounds - it is a CH-46 Sea Knight by the way, not the similarly configured CH-47 - once the last had left from the roof (which was the famous photo, and [edit] a Huey UH-1, of course).The CH-46 still survives, apparently:Leon said:
lol. I will bow to your superior knowledge on helicopters, so fair enough.Dura_Ace said:
Saigon was a UH-1H. Kabul was a CH-47D. Stick to reviewing salads.Leon said:
Incredibly, they seem to be using the exact same model of Chinook helicopter, to do the whole US embassy roof cutting-and-running thingwilliamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214Leon said:It's like some grand cosmic joke
"US miilitary helicopters evacuate the US Embassy in Kabul as the Taliban enter the city"
https://twitter.com/alfonslopeztena/status/1426832837710426113?s=20
I refuse to believe Biden and Harris and Co sat down and thought "Yes this will happen, the whole Saigon thing, and it will be worth it"
They have fucked up catastrophically, it is a total humiliation for the USA and a moment of real danger for the West
Biden: "There's going to be no circumstance where you're going to see people being lifted off the roof of an embassy of the United States from Afghanistan."
But they do look awfully similar here:
https://twitter.com/bswagspeare/status/1426872670851792901?s=20
However they look so similar I wonder if that Saigon photo is faked
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LMH0f2CpL8
AHA. In your face, Dura Ace, you stupid creepy suicidal antivaxxing motorpervert weirdo0 -
No, one's a Sea Knight (been in one, noisy as fuck) and one's a Chinook (been in one, noisy as fuck but Blair was in it so at least we couldn't hear him). The famous Saigon photo is a UH-1H (flown one, handles beautifully but not exactly a torque monster).Leon said:
So they are both Chinooks?
AHA. In your face, Dura Ace, you stupid creepy suicidal antivaxxing motorpervert weirdo2 -
"The Boeing Vertol CH-46 Sea Knight is a medium-lift tandem-rotor transport helicopter powered by twin turboshaft engines. It was designed by Vertol and ....Carnyx said:
No, sorry to disappoint you: the CH-46 and CH-47 look similar with a rotor at each end, but are quite different types. Look at the wheels in the Saigon photo in the threadf you posted - 3 undercarriage legs; a Chinook or Wokka has four, one at each corner (and is generally longer and more shoeboxy).Leon said:
So they are both Chinooks?Carnyx said:
I think the confusion may be that the last helicopter was the one with the Marines guards, leaving from the grounds - it is a CH-46 Sea Knight by the way, not the similarly configured CH-47 - once the last had left from the roof (which was the famous photo, and [edit] a Huey UH-1, of course).The CH-46 still survives, apparently:Leon said:
lol. I will bow to your superior knowledge on helicopters, so fair enough.Dura_Ace said:
Saigon was a UH-1H. Kabul was a CH-47D. Stick to reviewing salads.Leon said:
Incredibly, they seem to be using the exact same model of Chinook helicopter, to do the whole US embassy roof cutting-and-running thingwilliamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214Leon said:It's like some grand cosmic joke
"US miilitary helicopters evacuate the US Embassy in Kabul as the Taliban enter the city"
https://twitter.com/alfonslopeztena/status/1426832837710426113?s=20
I refuse to believe Biden and Harris and Co sat down and thought "Yes this will happen, the whole Saigon thing, and it will be worth it"
They have fucked up catastrophically, it is a total humiliation for the USA and a moment of real danger for the West
Biden: "There's going to be no circumstance where you're going to see people being lifted off the roof of an embassy of the United States from Afghanistan."
But they do look awfully similar here:
https://twitter.com/bswagspeare/status/1426872670851792901?s=20
However they look so similar I wonder if that Saigon photo is faked
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LMH0f2CpL8
AHA. In your face, Dura Ace, you stupid creepy suicidal antivaxxing motorpervert weirdo
Developed into: Boeing CH-47 CHINOOK"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Vertol_CH-46_Sea_Knight0 -
"Developed into" does NOT mean "identical", FFS!Leon said:
"The Boeing Vertol CH-46 Sea Knight is a medium-lift tandem-rotor transport helicopter powered by twin turboshaft engines. It was designed by Vertol and ....Carnyx said:
No, sorry to disappoint you: the CH-46 and CH-47 look similar with a rotor at each end, but are quite different types. Look at the wheels in the Saigon photo in the threadf you posted - 3 undercarriage legs; a Chinook or Wokka has four, one at each corner (and is generally longer and more shoeboxy).Leon said:
So they are both Chinooks?Carnyx said:
I think the confusion may be that the last helicopter was the one with the Marines guards, leaving from the grounds - it is a CH-46 Sea Knight by the way, not the similarly configured CH-47 - once the last had left from the roof (which was the famous photo, and [edit] a Huey UH-1, of course).The CH-46 still survives, apparently:Leon said:
lol. I will bow to your superior knowledge on helicopters, so fair enough.Dura_Ace said:
Saigon was a UH-1H. Kabul was a CH-47D. Stick to reviewing salads.Leon said:
Incredibly, they seem to be using the exact same model of Chinook helicopter, to do the whole US embassy roof cutting-and-running thingwilliamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214Leon said:It's like some grand cosmic joke
"US miilitary helicopters evacuate the US Embassy in Kabul as the Taliban enter the city"
https://twitter.com/alfonslopeztena/status/1426832837710426113?s=20
I refuse to believe Biden and Harris and Co sat down and thought "Yes this will happen, the whole Saigon thing, and it will be worth it"
They have fucked up catastrophically, it is a total humiliation for the USA and a moment of real danger for the West
Biden: "There's going to be no circumstance where you're going to see people being lifted off the roof of an embassy of the United States from Afghanistan."
But they do look awfully similar here:
https://twitter.com/bswagspeare/status/1426872670851792901?s=20
However they look so similar I wonder if that Saigon photo is faked
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LMH0f2CpL8
AHA. In your face, Dura Ace, you stupid creepy suicidal antivaxxing motorpervert weirdo
Developed into: Boeing CH-47 CHINOOK"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Vertol_CH-46_Sea_Knight1 -
That's like saying that the Hawker Fury was developed into the Hawker Hurricane. The relationship is obvious, but for sure they're not the same.Leon said:
"The Boeing Vertol CH-46 Sea Knight is a medium-lift tandem-rotor transport helicopter powered by twin turboshaft engines. It was designed by Vertol and ....Carnyx said:
No, sorry to disappoint you: the CH-46 and CH-47 look similar with a rotor at each end, but are quite different types. Look at the wheels in the Saigon photo in the threadf you posted - 3 undercarriage legs; a Chinook or Wokka has four, one at each corner (and is generally longer and more shoeboxy).Leon said:
So they are both Chinooks?Carnyx said:
I think the confusion may be that the last helicopter was the one with the Marines guards, leaving from the grounds - it is a CH-46 Sea Knight by the way, not the similarly configured CH-47 - once the last had left from the roof (which was the famous photo, and [edit] a Huey UH-1, of course).The CH-46 still survives, apparently:Leon said:
lol. I will bow to your superior knowledge on helicopters, so fair enough.Dura_Ace said:
Saigon was a UH-1H. Kabul was a CH-47D. Stick to reviewing salads.Leon said:
Incredibly, they seem to be using the exact same model of Chinook helicopter, to do the whole US embassy roof cutting-and-running thingwilliamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214Leon said:It's like some grand cosmic joke
"US miilitary helicopters evacuate the US Embassy in Kabul as the Taliban enter the city"
https://twitter.com/alfonslopeztena/status/1426832837710426113?s=20
I refuse to believe Biden and Harris and Co sat down and thought "Yes this will happen, the whole Saigon thing, and it will be worth it"
They have fucked up catastrophically, it is a total humiliation for the USA and a moment of real danger for the West
Biden: "There's going to be no circumstance where you're going to see people being lifted off the roof of an embassy of the United States from Afghanistan."
But they do look awfully similar here:
https://twitter.com/bswagspeare/status/1426872670851792901?s=20
However they look so similar I wonder if that Saigon photo is faked
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LMH0f2CpL8
AHA. In your face, Dura Ace, you stupid creepy suicidal antivaxxing motorpervert weirdo
Developed into: Boeing CH-47 CHINOOK"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Vertol_CH-46_Sea_Knight
1 -
Population of Afghanistan:
2001: 22 million
2021: 40 million0 -
If parliament was nt recalled you'd be screaming for it to be done.. like yesterday.CorrectHorseBattery said:Parliament to be recalled...to do what exactly? Invade?
Hit the nerve though didn't it? What will Keir say? Safe haven for the entire Afghan people in Hartlepool? Send the SAS to Kabul while Britain stands alone? Let me guess - neither! Maybe 'lessons need to be learned - there must be a full judge-led inquiry'...... or maybe he won't turn up as there is no point..according to you.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Having problems with your keyboard felix? Maybe try not mashing your head into itfelix said:
If parliament was nt recalled you'd be screaming for it to be done.. like yesterday.CorrectHorseBattery said:Parliament to be recalled...to do what exactly? Invade?
0 -
The Saigon building was later taken over by Petrovietnam. American oil men used to love going up on that roof. Was never quite sure why....Dura_Ace said:
Saigon was a UH-1H. Kabul was a CH-47D. Stick to reviewing salads.Leon said:
Incredibly, they seem to be using the exact same model of Chinook helicopter, to do the whole US embassy roof cutting-and-running thingwilliamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214Leon said:It's like some grand cosmic joke
"US miilitary helicopters evacuate the US Embassy in Kabul as the Taliban enter the city"
https://twitter.com/alfonslopeztena/status/1426832837710426113?s=20
I refuse to believe Biden and Harris and Co sat down and thought "Yes this will happen, the whole Saigon thing, and it will be worth it"
They have fucked up catastrophically, it is a total humiliation for the USA and a moment of real danger for the West
Biden: "There's going to be no circumstance where you're going to see people being lifted off the roof of an embassy of the United States from Afghanistan."0 -
Good morning's work from England. Pant is still to come of course but you don't see many of the other Indian batsmen rattling up the scoreboard with Virat gone.0
-
Presumably Blinken will need to resign to cover Biden?
Or Austin?0 -
It's close enough for me to claim victory over Dura Ace in the great PB US Embassy Roof Iconic Fleeing Chinook Helicopter Photo War. I just hope he doesn't now get on his Kawasaki 30CC scooter and drive off a Scottish cliff in his impotent rageCarnyx said:
That's like saying that the Hawker Fury was developed into the Hawker Hurricane. The relationship is obvious, but for sure they're not the same.Leon said:
"The Boeing Vertol CH-46 Sea Knight is a medium-lift tandem-rotor transport helicopter powered by twin turboshaft engines. It was designed by Vertol and ....Carnyx said:
No, sorry to disappoint you: the CH-46 and CH-47 look similar with a rotor at each end, but are quite different types. Look at the wheels in the Saigon photo in the threadf you posted - 3 undercarriage legs; a Chinook or Wokka has four, one at each corner (and is generally longer and more shoeboxy).Leon said:
So they are both Chinooks?Carnyx said:
I think the confusion may be that the last helicopter was the one with the Marines guards, leaving from the grounds - it is a CH-46 Sea Knight by the way, not the similarly configured CH-47 - once the last had left from the roof (which was the famous photo, and [edit] a Huey UH-1, of course).The CH-46 still survives, apparently:Leon said:
lol. I will bow to your superior knowledge on helicopters, so fair enough.Dura_Ace said:
Saigon was a UH-1H. Kabul was a CH-47D. Stick to reviewing salads.Leon said:
Incredibly, they seem to be using the exact same model of Chinook helicopter, to do the whole US embassy roof cutting-and-running thingwilliamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214Leon said:It's like some grand cosmic joke
"US miilitary helicopters evacuate the US Embassy in Kabul as the Taliban enter the city"
https://twitter.com/alfonslopeztena/status/1426832837710426113?s=20
I refuse to believe Biden and Harris and Co sat down and thought "Yes this will happen, the whole Saigon thing, and it will be worth it"
They have fucked up catastrophically, it is a total humiliation for the USA and a moment of real danger for the West
Biden: "There's going to be no circumstance where you're going to see people being lifted off the roof of an embassy of the United States from Afghanistan."
But they do look awfully similar here:
https://twitter.com/bswagspeare/status/1426872670851792901?s=20
However they look so similar I wonder if that Saigon photo is faked
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LMH0f2CpL8
AHA. In your face, Dura Ace, you stupid creepy suicidal antivaxxing motorpervert weirdo
Developed into: Boeing CH-47 CHINOOK"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Vertol_CH-46_Sea_Knight0 -
The American security services are pretty rubbish aren't they. They thought it would take 18 months for this to happen, if it happened at all, according to BBC News.0
-
It's probably right to throw shit at politicians for completely misreading this since it's their actual job to read this, but since most on here (including me) have barely expressed an opinion on Afghanistan for years, a bit of self-aware restraint might be in order. In this case I'd say we have exactly the politicians we deserve.Alistair said:
It's a horrible approach and Biden has clearly fucked it with Afghanistan but the point is to highlight the rank hypocrisy of people supporting the latest Boris move with "but he's popular".tlg86 said:
Politics by opinion polls? I thought that’s what people on here criticised Boris Johnson for?Alistair said:When the next poll out shows American support for withdrawing from Afghanistan has increased I will dub the PB reaction as BDS.
I do have to wonder what intel the geniuses at the CIA and the Pentagon were feeding Biden.3 -
"KABUL, Afghanistan — As the Taliban stood at the gates of Kabul, completing the near total takeover of Afghanistan two decades after the American military drove them from power, a chaotic and frenzied evacuation of U.S. diplomats and civilians kicked into high gear on Sunday.
Helicopter after helicopter — including massive Chinooks with their twin engines and speedy Black Hawks that had been the workhorse of the grinding war — touched down and then took off loaded with passengers. Some dispensed flares overhead, a new addition to Kabul’s skyline."
NYTimes blog0 -
Except the CH-46 has only THREE sets of landing gear to the CH-47's FOUR sets!Leon said:
It's close enough for me to claim victory over Dura Ace in the great PB US Embassy Roof Iconic Fleeing Chinook Helicopter Photo War. I just hope he doesn't now get on his Kawasaki 30CC scooter and drive off a Scottish cliff in his impotent rageCarnyx said:
That's like saying that the Hawker Fury was developed into the Hawker Hurricane. The relationship is obvious, but for sure they're not the same.Leon said:
"The Boeing Vertol CH-46 Sea Knight is a medium-lift tandem-rotor transport helicopter powered by twin turboshaft engines. It was designed by Vertol and ....Carnyx said:
No, sorry to disappoint you: the CH-46 and CH-47 look similar with a rotor at each end, but are quite different types. Look at the wheels in the Saigon photo in the threadf you posted - 3 undercarriage legs; a Chinook or Wokka has four, one at each corner (and is generally longer and more shoeboxy).Leon said:
So they are both Chinooks?Carnyx said:
I think the confusion may be that the last helicopter was the one with the Marines guards, leaving from the grounds - it is a CH-46 Sea Knight by the way, not the similarly configured CH-47 - once the last had left from the roof (which was the famous photo, and [edit] a Huey UH-1, of course).The CH-46 still survives, apparently:Leon said:
lol. I will bow to your superior knowledge on helicopters, so fair enough.Dura_Ace said:
Saigon was a UH-1H. Kabul was a CH-47D. Stick to reviewing salads.Leon said:
Incredibly, they seem to be using the exact same model of Chinook helicopter, to do the whole US embassy roof cutting-and-running thingwilliamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214Leon said:It's like some grand cosmic joke
"US miilitary helicopters evacuate the US Embassy in Kabul as the Taliban enter the city"
https://twitter.com/alfonslopeztena/status/1426832837710426113?s=20
I refuse to believe Biden and Harris and Co sat down and thought "Yes this will happen, the whole Saigon thing, and it will be worth it"
They have fucked up catastrophically, it is a total humiliation for the USA and a moment of real danger for the West
Biden: "There's going to be no circumstance where you're going to see people being lifted off the roof of an embassy of the United States from Afghanistan."
But they do look awfully similar here:
https://twitter.com/bswagspeare/status/1426872670851792901?s=20
However they look so similar I wonder if that Saigon photo is faked
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LMH0f2CpL8
AHA. In your face, Dura Ace, you stupid creepy suicidal antivaxxing motorpervert weirdo
Developed into: Boeing CH-47 CHINOOK"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Vertol_CH-46_Sea_Knight
Stick to the effete, namby-pamby restaurant reviews!
0 -
So likely 25m under 20.Andy_JS said:Population of Afghanistan:
2001: 22 million
2021: 40 million
I wonder how many kids that generation will have.
Similar demographics in much of the third world.
Not going to end well.
Or likely start well or go well in the middle either.0 -
"13:05
Taliban advance 'will not change US plans'
A US official has said there will be "no change" to US plans to complete its troop pull-out by mid-September, despite recent developments which have seen the Taliban breach the capital Kabul in just 10 days.
The unnamed official told the Reuters news agency that the US would only react if the Taliban interfered with their plans to evacuate embassy staff; the administration has previously warned of "a swift and strong US military response" if US personnel are put at risk by Taliban actions."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-asia-582199630 -
Afternoon all
Rory Stewart hit the nail squarely on the head this morning.
The withdrawal of air support was the nail in the coffin for the Afghan National Army and Government. It would have been much harder for the Taliban to advance if they faced the kind of air assault the US, UK and others can muster.
Yet the Afghan Air Force has supposedly 180 aircraft which is I suspect is 180 more than the Taliban though the latter have (I presume) anti-aircraft missiles at their disposal.
The fact remains a well-equipped modern army has disintegrated in just five weeks and whatever vitriol you want to hurl at Biden, the questions remains why no one has tried to fight for Ghani and the anti-Taliban forces.3 -
Just think of it as a post covid normalisation. We are back to our old feuds.kjh said:
What do you suggest we discuss? Brexit maybe?Leon said:
Perhaps you guys could also shut the fuck up about Scottish indy as well, then? Just for a few months?Carnyx said:
That's a really original and interesting hypothesis. Do you think you could repeat it, like, maybe 246 times in 77 threads? I can then design a new Antikythera Mechanism to replace you on this site.HYUFD said:
Not necessarily, the latest poll is 52% No but once in a generation is once in a generationeek said:
Given that you didn't answer the actual point, which is that Boris knows he will lose a referendum I assume you agree thag Scotland woulc currently vote for independence so you don't want to ffer them the chance.HYUFD said:
No it wouldn't, you Nationalists would be arguing for indyref3 the next day.StuartDickson said:
It really is the only logical conclusion to draw.malcolmg said:
they are too scared for thatStuartDickson said:
Maybe. Maybe not. There is only one way to find out.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And they will vote to remain in the unionStuartDickson said:
The Scots will decide the future constitutional status of our country, not Boris Johnson.HYUFD said:
They don't, as long as Boris remains PM he has made clear he will refuse indyref2StuartDickson said:
How about the Boris Johnson exit date market?Gallowgate said:
I can’t think of a more depressing betting marketStuartDickson said:
Talking of trade unions, I’ve just spotted this new market:squareroot2 said:
Whereas i read on here that Labour was almost broke and could barely pay its head office staff. The Unions don't seem keen to cough up much at the moment.DecrepiterJohnL said:
In one year, Conservative Party membership increased by 50 per cent. That's ordinary Conservatives enthused by Boris, you understand, and not entryists as you'd suspect with Labour. 2018, 120,000 members; 2019, 180,000. So be slightly careful in guessing which way members will vote in any leadership election. Past performance may be no guide.eek said:
It will always be the more extreme of the two members presented to them by the filtering committee of Tory MPsStuartinromford said:
Consider also that, at least since party leaders were chosen by members, the standard response to defeat is to double down on what the members want and moderation can go to hell.StuartDickson said:
So, what is more likely?OldKingCole said:
In fairness, Commander(?) Ace, the situation cannot be fixed by THIS Tory government; up until 2015 one could reasonably say that Tory governments were, generally speaking, pro-Europe.Dura_Ace said:With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...
They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.
However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.
It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.
It's only under Johnson and his acolytes that the party has become rabid English Nationalists.
1. the Conservative Party abandoning English Nationalism and becoming pro-Europe again, or
2. a government of a different political complexion taking power
Because one of those two things has to happen to solve the informal transmanche regatta.
Path 2 seems far more likely than path 1.
Suppose the Conservatives lose in 2024. Is the next LotO more likely to be a "Brexit with a human face" type (Hunt, say) or a "Boris's problem was he was just too soft on Europe, bless him" character (Patel or JRM, for example)?
Best prices - Unite General Secretary election
Steve Turner 10/11
Gerard Coyne 2/1
Sharon Graham 11/4
2024 or later 4/6
At least the Scots have an exit route.
Another No win, even by 50.1% to 49.9%, would put the issue to bed for half a century. We’d be in a Quebec scenario.
If the Unionists thought they could get that 50.1% they’d take it in a flash. Cummings and Gove think they could, and they might be right, but very few other Unionists do. The big giveaway is that the Unionists with a true, deep understanding of the lie of the land in the villages and towns of Scotland - the Lib Dem and Labour activists - are also strongly against holding a fresh independence referendum. They can see clearly how it would go.
Once in a generation means precisely that
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1424074941381713921?s=20
We know where you stand, we know where HYUFD stands, we know where Stuart "blood and soil" Dickson stands, maybe if you ALL just put a lid on it til, say, Christmas, the site would benefit
There ain't gonna be a referendum any time soon, there are no new arguments to be had from Nats or Yoons, you are dancing around the same fucking handbag day after day. Desist. Ta1 -
I'm guessing the "Taliban advance" is down to many districts merely swapping sides?stodge said:Afternoon all
Rory Stewart hit the nail squarely on the head this morning.
The withdrawal of air support was the nail in the coffin for the Afghan National Army and Government. It would have been much harder for the Taliban to advance if they faced the kind of air assault the US, UK and others can muster.
Yet the Afghan Air Force has supposedly 180 aircraft which is I suspect is 180 more than the Taliban though the latter have (I presume) anti-aircraft missiles at their disposal.
The fact remains a well-equipped modern army has disintegrated in just five weeks and whatever vitriol you want to hurl at Biden, the questions remains why no one has tried to fight for Ghani and the anti-Taliban forces.1 -
Indeed. Why should Americans or Brits risk their lives against Stinger missiles if Afghans are not minded to?stodge said:Afternoon all
Rory Stewart hit the nail squarely on the head this morning.
The withdrawal of air support was the nail in the coffin for the Afghan National Army and Government. It would have been much harder for the Taliban to advance if they faced the kind of air assault the US, UK and others can muster.
Yet the Afghan Air Force has supposedly 180 aircraft which is I suspect is 180 more than the Taliban though the latter have (I presume) anti-aircraft missiles at their disposal.
The fact remains a well-equipped modern army has disintegrated in just five weeks and whatever vitriol you want to hurl at Biden, the questions remains why no one has tried to fight for Ghani and the anti-Taliban forces.1 -
The afternoon thread is about Scotland.Foxy said:
Just think of it as a post covid normalisation. We are back to our old feuds.kjh said:
What do you suggest we discuss? Brexit maybe?Leon said:
Perhaps you guys could also shut the fuck up about Scottish indy as well, then? Just for a few months?Carnyx said:
That's a really original and interesting hypothesis. Do you think you could repeat it, like, maybe 246 times in 77 threads? I can then design a new Antikythera Mechanism to replace you on this site.HYUFD said:
Not necessarily, the latest poll is 52% No but once in a generation is once in a generationeek said:
Given that you didn't answer the actual point, which is that Boris knows he will lose a referendum I assume you agree thag Scotland woulc currently vote for independence so you don't want to ffer them the chance.HYUFD said:
No it wouldn't, you Nationalists would be arguing for indyref3 the next day.StuartDickson said:
It really is the only logical conclusion to draw.malcolmg said:
they are too scared for thatStuartDickson said:
Maybe. Maybe not. There is only one way to find out.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And they will vote to remain in the unionStuartDickson said:
The Scots will decide the future constitutional status of our country, not Boris Johnson.HYUFD said:
They don't, as long as Boris remains PM he has made clear he will refuse indyref2StuartDickson said:
How about the Boris Johnson exit date market?Gallowgate said:
I can’t think of a more depressing betting marketStuartDickson said:
Talking of trade unions, I’ve just spotted this new market:squareroot2 said:
Whereas i read on here that Labour was almost broke and could barely pay its head office staff. The Unions don't seem keen to cough up much at the moment.DecrepiterJohnL said:
In one year, Conservative Party membership increased by 50 per cent. That's ordinary Conservatives enthused by Boris, you understand, and not entryists as you'd suspect with Labour. 2018, 120,000 members; 2019, 180,000. So be slightly careful in guessing which way members will vote in any leadership election. Past performance may be no guide.eek said:
It will always be the more extreme of the two members presented to them by the filtering committee of Tory MPsStuartinromford said:
Consider also that, at least since party leaders were chosen by members, the standard response to defeat is to double down on what the members want and moderation can go to hell.StuartDickson said:
So, what is more likely?OldKingCole said:
In fairness, Commander(?) Ace, the situation cannot be fixed by THIS Tory government; up until 2015 one could reasonably say that Tory governments were, generally speaking, pro-Europe.Dura_Ace said:With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...
They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.
However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.
It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.
It's only under Johnson and his acolytes that the party has become rabid English Nationalists.
1. the Conservative Party abandoning English Nationalism and becoming pro-Europe again, or
2. a government of a different political complexion taking power
Because one of those two things has to happen to solve the informal transmanche regatta.
Path 2 seems far more likely than path 1.
Suppose the Conservatives lose in 2024. Is the next LotO more likely to be a "Brexit with a human face" type (Hunt, say) or a "Boris's problem was he was just too soft on Europe, bless him" character (Patel or JRM, for example)?
Best prices - Unite General Secretary election
Steve Turner 10/11
Gerard Coyne 2/1
Sharon Graham 11/4
2024 or later 4/6
At least the Scots have an exit route.
Another No win, even by 50.1% to 49.9%, would put the issue to bed for half a century. We’d be in a Quebec scenario.
If the Unionists thought they could get that 50.1% they’d take it in a flash. Cummings and Gove think they could, and they might be right, but very few other Unionists do. The big giveaway is that the Unionists with a true, deep understanding of the lie of the land in the villages and towns of Scotland - the Lib Dem and Labour activists - are also strongly against holding a fresh independence referendum. They can see clearly how it would go.
Once in a generation means precisely that
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1424074941381713921?s=20
We know where you stand, we know where HYUFD stands, we know where Stuart "blood and soil" Dickson stands, maybe if you ALL just put a lid on it til, say, Christmas, the site would benefit
There ain't gonna be a referendum any time soon, there are no new arguments to be had from Nats or Yoons, you are dancing around the same fucking handbag day after day. Desist. Ta
You can all thank me now or on that when it is published.
I also have at least 4 Scotland threads in the pipeline for when Mike is on holiday.2 -
Sadist.TheScreamingEagles said:
The afternoon thread is about Scotland.Foxy said:
Just think of it as a post covid normalisation. We are back to our old feuds.kjh said:
What do you suggest we discuss? Brexit maybe?Leon said:
Perhaps you guys could also shut the fuck up about Scottish indy as well, then? Just for a few months?Carnyx said:
That's a really original and interesting hypothesis. Do you think you could repeat it, like, maybe 246 times in 77 threads? I can then design a new Antikythera Mechanism to replace you on this site.HYUFD said:
Not necessarily, the latest poll is 52% No but once in a generation is once in a generationeek said:
Given that you didn't answer the actual point, which is that Boris knows he will lose a referendum I assume you agree thag Scotland woulc currently vote for independence so you don't want to ffer them the chance.HYUFD said:
No it wouldn't, you Nationalists would be arguing for indyref3 the next day.StuartDickson said:
It really is the only logical conclusion to draw.malcolmg said:
they are too scared for thatStuartDickson said:
Maybe. Maybe not. There is only one way to find out.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And they will vote to remain in the unionStuartDickson said:
The Scots will decide the future constitutional status of our country, not Boris Johnson.HYUFD said:
They don't, as long as Boris remains PM he has made clear he will refuse indyref2StuartDickson said:
How about the Boris Johnson exit date market?Gallowgate said:
I can’t think of a more depressing betting marketStuartDickson said:
Talking of trade unions, I’ve just spotted this new market:squareroot2 said:
Whereas i read on here that Labour was almost broke and could barely pay its head office staff. The Unions don't seem keen to cough up much at the moment.DecrepiterJohnL said:
In one year, Conservative Party membership increased by 50 per cent. That's ordinary Conservatives enthused by Boris, you understand, and not entryists as you'd suspect with Labour. 2018, 120,000 members; 2019, 180,000. So be slightly careful in guessing which way members will vote in any leadership election. Past performance may be no guide.eek said:
It will always be the more extreme of the two members presented to them by the filtering committee of Tory MPsStuartinromford said:
Consider also that, at least since party leaders were chosen by members, the standard response to defeat is to double down on what the members want and moderation can go to hell.StuartDickson said:
So, what is more likely?OldKingCole said:
In fairness, Commander(?) Ace, the situation cannot be fixed by THIS Tory government; up until 2015 one could reasonably say that Tory governments were, generally speaking, pro-Europe.Dura_Ace said:With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...
They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.
However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.
It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.
It's only under Johnson and his acolytes that the party has become rabid English Nationalists.
1. the Conservative Party abandoning English Nationalism and becoming pro-Europe again, or
2. a government of a different political complexion taking power
Because one of those two things has to happen to solve the informal transmanche regatta.
Path 2 seems far more likely than path 1.
Suppose the Conservatives lose in 2024. Is the next LotO more likely to be a "Brexit with a human face" type (Hunt, say) or a "Boris's problem was he was just too soft on Europe, bless him" character (Patel or JRM, for example)?
Best prices - Unite General Secretary election
Steve Turner 10/11
Gerard Coyne 2/1
Sharon Graham 11/4
2024 or later 4/6
At least the Scots have an exit route.
Another No win, even by 50.1% to 49.9%, would put the issue to bed for half a century. We’d be in a Quebec scenario.
If the Unionists thought they could get that 50.1% they’d take it in a flash. Cummings and Gove think they could, and they might be right, but very few other Unionists do. The big giveaway is that the Unionists with a true, deep understanding of the lie of the land in the villages and towns of Scotland - the Lib Dem and Labour activists - are also strongly against holding a fresh independence referendum. They can see clearly how it would go.
Once in a generation means precisely that
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1424074941381713921?s=20
We know where you stand, we know where HYUFD stands, we know where Stuart "blood and soil" Dickson stands, maybe if you ALL just put a lid on it til, say, Christmas, the site would benefit
There ain't gonna be a referendum any time soon, there are no new arguments to be had from Nats or Yoons, you are dancing around the same fucking handbag day after day. Desist. Ta
You can all thank me now or on that when it is published.
I also have at least 4 Scotland threads in the pipeline for when Mike is on holiday.1 -
I don't know if this was picked up yesterday but a fascinating INSA poll from Germany:
Changes on 2017 Bundestag election
Union CDU/CSU: 25% (-8)
Social Democrats: 20% (-1)
Greens: 18% (+9)
Free Democrats: 12% (+1)
Alternative for Germany: 11% (-2)
Left: 7% (-2)
Others 4%
Free Voters 3%
The recovery of the SPD has been remarkable and we could yet see Olaf Scholz, the current Finance Minister, get the top job. I suspect the FDP would be quite happy to support Scholz who advocates no new debt and limited public spending. The question is whether Scholz could hold together an SPD-FDP-Green Coalition which would theoretically be at or close to a majority.0 -
Afghanistan: Telegraph:
"Defence Committee chairman Tobias Ellwood said it was a humiliation for the West."
Really? What a perceptive chap. But yeah, we're talking about p*ssing squillions of quid up the wall fighting a war that it was impossible to win, on a foreign country's say-so, and then at the moment of final defeat not even being able to withdraw in orderly fashion. The responsibility for that last failure must surely lie with Boris Johnson who has been PM for two years, easily long enough to withdraw calmly and without panic. But given that he couldn't be bothered, quite possibly by this time tomorrow there will be a POW issue: "release prisoners you're holding in Guantanamo and Diego Garcia and we'll release the prisoners we took in Kabul who couldn't grab on to the helicopter skids in time." (Clue: do the f***ing deal. Much better to do the deal than have videos circulate of British embassy staff getting their heads cut off because you didn't.)
"Despite the decision of the Biden administration to withdraw the remaining US troops which triggered the collapse, Mr Ellwood said it was still not too late to turn the situation around.
He called for the despatch of the Royal Navy carrier strike group to the region and urged the Prime Minister to convene an emergency conference of "like-minded nations" to see what could be done."
What a maniac. Carpet-bombing on the way out of the door, huh? Remind me how that worked in Vietnam and Kampuchea. The only military issue now for Britain is the evacuation.
1 -
The unpalatable truth for many in the west is that the issues with which hands are wrung here clearly are not of much potency in the country itself. It is ironic to me that many are wailing about the plight of Afghan women without the west to protect their freedom. Is that not just a modern update to 'civilising the heathens' of an earlier age. I sympathise with HYUFD today, of all people, but at least he's consistent.stodge said:Afternoon all
Rory Stewart hit the nail squarely on the head this morning.
The withdrawal of air support was the nail in the coffin for the Afghan National Army and Government. It would have been much harder for the Taliban to advance if they faced the kind of air assault the US, UK and others can muster.
Yet the Afghan Air Force has supposedly 180 aircraft which is I suspect is 180 more than the Taliban though the latter have (I presume) anti-aircraft missiles at their disposal.
The fact remains a well-equipped modern army has disintegrated in just five weeks and whatever vitriol you want to hurl at Biden, the questions remains why no one has tried to fight for Ghani and the anti-Taliban forces.0 -
To defend ourselves from a jihadi nation exporting terror. As happened beforeDavidL said:
Indeed. Why should Americans or Brits risk their lives against Stinger missiles if Afghans are not minded to?stodge said:Afternoon all
Rory Stewart hit the nail squarely on the head this morning.
The withdrawal of air support was the nail in the coffin for the Afghan National Army and Government. It would have been much harder for the Taliban to advance if they faced the kind of air assault the US, UK and others can muster.
Yet the Afghan Air Force has supposedly 180 aircraft which is I suspect is 180 more than the Taliban though the latter have (I presume) anti-aircraft missiles at their disposal.
The fact remains a well-equipped modern army has disintegrated in just five weeks and whatever vitriol you want to hurl at Biden, the questions remains why no one has tried to fight for Ghani and the anti-Taliban forces.
I predict that within 5 years we will be bombing Afghanistan again. Not invading, but bombing, yes0 -
Poor Leon, broiling in the east Med sun, biting his fingers and dying to have his tuppence worth.TheScreamingEagles said:
The afternoon thread is about Scotland.Foxy said:
Just think of it as a post covid normalisation. We are back to our old feuds.kjh said:
What do you suggest we discuss? Brexit maybe?Leon said:
Perhaps you guys could also shut the fuck up about Scottish indy as well, then? Just for a few months?Carnyx said:
That's a really original and interesting hypothesis. Do you think you could repeat it, like, maybe 246 times in 77 threads? I can then design a new Antikythera Mechanism to replace you on this site.HYUFD said:
Not necessarily, the latest poll is 52% No but once in a generation is once in a generationeek said:
Given that you didn't answer the actual point, which is that Boris knows he will lose a referendum I assume you agree thag Scotland woulc currently vote for independence so you don't want to ffer them the chance.HYUFD said:
No it wouldn't, you Nationalists would be arguing for indyref3 the next day.StuartDickson said:
It really is the only logical conclusion to draw.malcolmg said:
they are too scared for thatStuartDickson said:
Maybe. Maybe not. There is only one way to find out.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And they will vote to remain in the unionStuartDickson said:
The Scots will decide the future constitutional status of our country, not Boris Johnson.HYUFD said:
They don't, as long as Boris remains PM he has made clear he will refuse indyref2StuartDickson said:
How about the Boris Johnson exit date market?Gallowgate said:
I can’t think of a more depressing betting marketStuartDickson said:
Talking of trade unions, I’ve just spotted this new market:squareroot2 said:
Whereas i read on here that Labour was almost broke and could barely pay its head office staff. The Unions don't seem keen to cough up much at the moment.DecrepiterJohnL said:
In one year, Conservative Party membership increased by 50 per cent. That's ordinary Conservatives enthused by Boris, you understand, and not entryists as you'd suspect with Labour. 2018, 120,000 members; 2019, 180,000. So be slightly careful in guessing which way members will vote in any leadership election. Past performance may be no guide.eek said:
It will always be the more extreme of the two members presented to them by the filtering committee of Tory MPsStuartinromford said:
Consider also that, at least since party leaders were chosen by members, the standard response to defeat is to double down on what the members want and moderation can go to hell.StuartDickson said:
So, what is more likely?OldKingCole said:
In fairness, Commander(?) Ace, the situation cannot be fixed by THIS Tory government; up until 2015 one could reasonably say that Tory governments were, generally speaking, pro-Europe.Dura_Ace said:With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...
They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.
However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.
It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.
It's only under Johnson and his acolytes that the party has become rabid English Nationalists.
1. the Conservative Party abandoning English Nationalism and becoming pro-Europe again, or
2. a government of a different political complexion taking power
Because one of those two things has to happen to solve the informal transmanche regatta.
Path 2 seems far more likely than path 1.
Suppose the Conservatives lose in 2024. Is the next LotO more likely to be a "Brexit with a human face" type (Hunt, say) or a "Boris's problem was he was just too soft on Europe, bless him" character (Patel or JRM, for example)?
Best prices - Unite General Secretary election
Steve Turner 10/11
Gerard Coyne 2/1
Sharon Graham 11/4
2024 or later 4/6
At least the Scots have an exit route.
Another No win, even by 50.1% to 49.9%, would put the issue to bed for half a century. We’d be in a Quebec scenario.
If the Unionists thought they could get that 50.1% they’d take it in a flash. Cummings and Gove think they could, and they might be right, but very few other Unionists do. The big giveaway is that the Unionists with a true, deep understanding of the lie of the land in the villages and towns of Scotland - the Lib Dem and Labour activists - are also strongly against holding a fresh independence referendum. They can see clearly how it would go.
Once in a generation means precisely that
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1424074941381713921?s=20
We know where you stand, we know where HYUFD stands, we know where Stuart "blood and soil" Dickson stands, maybe if you ALL just put a lid on it til, say, Christmas, the site would benefit
There ain't gonna be a referendum any time soon, there are no new arguments to be had from Nats or Yoons, you are dancing around the same fucking handbag day after day. Desist. Ta
You can all thank me now or on that when it is published.
I also have at least 4 Scotland threads in the pipeline for when Mike is on holiday.0 -
Indeed, and where is Johnson for comment at the moment? Is he on holiday too?Theuniondivvie said:
It's probably right to throw shit at politicians for completely misreading this since it's their actual job to read this, but since most on here (including me) have barely expressed an opinion on Afghanistan for years, a bit of self-aware restraint might be in order. In this case I'd say we have exactly the politicians we deserve.Alistair said:
It's a horrible approach and Biden has clearly fucked it with Afghanistan but the point is to highlight the rank hypocrisy of people supporting the latest Boris move with "but he's popular".tlg86 said:
Politics by opinion polls? I thought that’s what people on here criticised Boris Johnson for?Alistair said:When the next poll out shows American support for withdrawing from Afghanistan has increased I will dub the PB reaction as BDS.
I do have to wonder what intel the geniuses at the CIA and the Pentagon were feeding Biden.1 -
Mike being on holiday inevitably means political events will spiral out of control and you never get to use them....TheScreamingEagles said:
The afternoon thread is about Scotland.Foxy said:
Just think of it as a post covid normalisation. We are back to our old feuds.kjh said:
What do you suggest we discuss? Brexit maybe?Leon said:
Perhaps you guys could also shut the fuck up about Scottish indy as well, then? Just for a few months?Carnyx said:
That's a really original and interesting hypothesis. Do you think you could repeat it, like, maybe 246 times in 77 threads? I can then design a new Antikythera Mechanism to replace you on this site.HYUFD said:
Not necessarily, the latest poll is 52% No but once in a generation is once in a generationeek said:
Given that you didn't answer the actual point, which is that Boris knows he will lose a referendum I assume you agree thag Scotland woulc currently vote for independence so you don't want to ffer them the chance.HYUFD said:
No it wouldn't, you Nationalists would be arguing for indyref3 the next day.StuartDickson said:
It really is the only logical conclusion to draw.malcolmg said:
they are too scared for thatStuartDickson said:
Maybe. Maybe not. There is only one way to find out.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And they will vote to remain in the unionStuartDickson said:
The Scots will decide the future constitutional status of our country, not Boris Johnson.HYUFD said:
They don't, as long as Boris remains PM he has made clear he will refuse indyref2StuartDickson said:
How about the Boris Johnson exit date market?Gallowgate said:
I can’t think of a more depressing betting marketStuartDickson said:
Talking of trade unions, I’ve just spotted this new market:squareroot2 said:
Whereas i read on here that Labour was almost broke and could barely pay its head office staff. The Unions don't seem keen to cough up much at the moment.DecrepiterJohnL said:
In one year, Conservative Party membership increased by 50 per cent. That's ordinary Conservatives enthused by Boris, you understand, and not entryists as you'd suspect with Labour. 2018, 120,000 members; 2019, 180,000. So be slightly careful in guessing which way members will vote in any leadership election. Past performance may be no guide.eek said:
It will always be the more extreme of the two members presented to them by the filtering committee of Tory MPsStuartinromford said:
Consider also that, at least since party leaders were chosen by members, the standard response to defeat is to double down on what the members want and moderation can go to hell.StuartDickson said:
So, what is more likely?OldKingCole said:
In fairness, Commander(?) Ace, the situation cannot be fixed by THIS Tory government; up until 2015 one could reasonably say that Tory governments were, generally speaking, pro-Europe.Dura_Ace said:With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...
They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.
However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.
It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.
It's only under Johnson and his acolytes that the party has become rabid English Nationalists.
1. the Conservative Party abandoning English Nationalism and becoming pro-Europe again, or
2. a government of a different political complexion taking power
Because one of those two things has to happen to solve the informal transmanche regatta.
Path 2 seems far more likely than path 1.
Suppose the Conservatives lose in 2024. Is the next LotO more likely to be a "Brexit with a human face" type (Hunt, say) or a "Boris's problem was he was just too soft on Europe, bless him" character (Patel or JRM, for example)?
Best prices - Unite General Secretary election
Steve Turner 10/11
Gerard Coyne 2/1
Sharon Graham 11/4
2024 or later 4/6
At least the Scots have an exit route.
Another No win, even by 50.1% to 49.9%, would put the issue to bed for half a century. We’d be in a Quebec scenario.
If the Unionists thought they could get that 50.1% they’d take it in a flash. Cummings and Gove think they could, and they might be right, but very few other Unionists do. The big giveaway is that the Unionists with a true, deep understanding of the lie of the land in the villages and towns of Scotland - the Lib Dem and Labour activists - are also strongly against holding a fresh independence referendum. They can see clearly how it would go.
Once in a generation means precisely that
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1424074941381713921?s=20
We know where you stand, we know where HYUFD stands, we know where Stuart "blood and soil" Dickson stands, maybe if you ALL just put a lid on it til, say, Christmas, the site would benefit
There ain't gonna be a referendum any time soon, there are no new arguments to be had from Nats or Yoons, you are dancing around the same fucking handbag day after day. Desist. Ta
You can all thank me now or on that when it is published.
I also have at least 4 Scotland threads in the pipeline for when Mike is on holiday.0 -
I'm just trying to share my insights and wisdom that allowed me to correctly forecast that Scotland would vote No in 2014.pigeon said:Sadist.
It will be informative and profitable for those who listen.1 -
"Who is that onanist wearing dark clothing?"Taz said:
Perhaps the FA can approve all Chants before fans are allowed to sing them ?turbotubbs said:
So is there a difference from what the Leeds fans did and singing ‘you’re sh*t and you know you are’? Seems an odd one. Perhaps we should be singing ‘you’re still very good but not quite as good as my team, please don’t take offence’...Taz said:
Yes, clubs do police their fans behaviour and, currently, it seems they do so in a reasonable way.Quincel said:
I find this an interesting argument given that, as you say, we have stopped what went on in the 70s and 80s. Leaving aside whether it is right, football clubs clearly are capable of policing their fans' behaviour to a reasonably significant extent.squareroot2 said:
Deary me.. people are getting sensitive. You should have listened to what went on in the 70s and 80s. This really is tame by comparison... ir might not be nice but you will never stop it.isam said:The MP for Leeds NW’s response to footage of Leeds fans singing “Sancho & Rashford let the country down” at Old Trafford yesterday. A bit much to call for supporters to be banned for that I think, this is tame stuff
‘An absolute disgrace I hope @LUFC bans these people as they are no supporters of the club’
https://twitter.com/alexsobel/status/1426542380610641922?s=21
But do you really think banning these people for this song is justified in any way, shape or form ?
Over a harmless chant. If they were making monkey noises or racist chanting then they should be banned. The fans caught on film fighting in Manchester yesterday, largely posted on Twitter, should be banned. A ban for This song. No way.
The referees a wanker being replaced with the referee practises acts of self love. As an example.
1 -
I see @NikitaBassi123, who works directly for Nicola Sturgeon, has quickly deleted her tweet suggesting Scotland is colonised and subject to ‘British rule’ just like India was.
These views are abhorrent and I hope the ignorance on display in that tweet is reflected on.
https://twitter.com/JohnFerry18/status/1426859853226684416?s=20
Scots came into India as writers, traders, engineers, missionaries, tea and indigo planters, jute traders and teachers. By 1771 almost half of the East India Company's writers were Scots.
The Scottish presence was also strongly evident in India. The first three Governor-Generals of India were Scots. When Henry Dundas became President of the Board of Control in 1784 he ‘Scoticised’ India and through his agencies Scots came to dominate the activities of the East India Company (EIC). By 1792, Scots made up one in nine EIC civil servants, six in eleven common soldiers and one in three officers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish-Indian1 -
The future of Scotland, a comparison to the pineapple pizza divide?TheScreamingEagles said:
The afternoon thread is about Scotland.Foxy said:
Just think of it as a post covid normalisation. We are back to our old feuds.kjh said:
What do you suggest we discuss? Brexit maybe?Leon said:
Perhaps you guys could also shut the fuck up about Scottish indy as well, then? Just for a few months?Carnyx said:
That's a really original and interesting hypothesis. Do you think you could repeat it, like, maybe 246 times in 77 threads? I can then design a new Antikythera Mechanism to replace you on this site.HYUFD said:
Not necessarily, the latest poll is 52% No but once in a generation is once in a generationeek said:
Given that you didn't answer the actual point, which is that Boris knows he will lose a referendum I assume you agree thag Scotland woulc currently vote for independence so you don't want to ffer them the chance.HYUFD said:
No it wouldn't, you Nationalists would be arguing for indyref3 the next day.StuartDickson said:
It really is the only logical conclusion to draw.malcolmg said:
they are too scared for thatStuartDickson said:
Maybe. Maybe not. There is only one way to find out.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And they will vote to remain in the unionStuartDickson said:
The Scots will decide the future constitutional status of our country, not Boris Johnson.HYUFD said:
They don't, as long as Boris remains PM he has made clear he will refuse indyref2StuartDickson said:
How about the Boris Johnson exit date market?Gallowgate said:
I can’t think of a more depressing betting marketStuartDickson said:
Talking of trade unions, I’ve just spotted this new market:squareroot2 said:
Whereas i read on here that Labour was almost broke and could barely pay its head office staff. The Unions don't seem keen to cough up much at the moment.DecrepiterJohnL said:
In one year, Conservative Party membership increased by 50 per cent. That's ordinary Conservatives enthused by Boris, you understand, and not entryists as you'd suspect with Labour. 2018, 120,000 members; 2019, 180,000. So be slightly careful in guessing which way members will vote in any leadership election. Past performance may be no guide.eek said:
It will always be the more extreme of the two members presented to them by the filtering committee of Tory MPsStuartinromford said:
Consider also that, at least since party leaders were chosen by members, the standard response to defeat is to double down on what the members want and moderation can go to hell.StuartDickson said:
So, what is more likely?OldKingCole said:
In fairness, Commander(?) Ace, the situation cannot be fixed by THIS Tory government; up until 2015 one could reasonably say that Tory governments were, generally speaking, pro-Europe.Dura_Ace said:With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...
They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.
However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.
It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.
It's only under Johnson and his acolytes that the party has become rabid English Nationalists.
1. the Conservative Party abandoning English Nationalism and becoming pro-Europe again, or
2. a government of a different political complexion taking power
Because one of those two things has to happen to solve the informal transmanche regatta.
Path 2 seems far more likely than path 1.
Suppose the Conservatives lose in 2024. Is the next LotO more likely to be a "Brexit with a human face" type (Hunt, say) or a "Boris's problem was he was just too soft on Europe, bless him" character (Patel or JRM, for example)?
Best prices - Unite General Secretary election
Steve Turner 10/11
Gerard Coyne 2/1
Sharon Graham 11/4
2024 or later 4/6
At least the Scots have an exit route.
Another No win, even by 50.1% to 49.9%, would put the issue to bed for half a century. We’d be in a Quebec scenario.
If the Unionists thought they could get that 50.1% they’d take it in a flash. Cummings and Gove think they could, and they might be right, but very few other Unionists do. The big giveaway is that the Unionists with a true, deep understanding of the lie of the land in the villages and towns of Scotland - the Lib Dem and Labour activists - are also strongly against holding a fresh independence referendum. They can see clearly how it would go.
Once in a generation means precisely that
https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1424074941381713921?s=20
We know where you stand, we know where HYUFD stands, we know where Stuart "blood and soil" Dickson stands, maybe if you ALL just put a lid on it til, say, Christmas, the site would benefit
There ain't gonna be a referendum any time soon, there are no new arguments to be had from Nats or Yoons, you are dancing around the same fucking handbag day after day. Desist. Ta
You can all thank me now or on that when it is published.
I also have at least 4 Scotland threads in the pipeline for when Mike is on holiday.0 -
That is the fear.MarqueeMark said:Mike being on holiday inevitably means political events will spiral out of control and you never get to use them....
Russia invading the rest of Ukraine seems inevitable from the 28th of August onwards.0 -
I don't demur with much of your analysis., but that's an interestingly fierce critique of a US military/presidential decision, from a senior ToryYoungTurk said:Afghanistan: Telegraph:
"Defence Committee chairman Tobias Ellwood said it was a humiliation for the West."
Really? What a perceptive chap. But yeah, we're talking about p*ssing squillions of quid up the wall fighting a war that it was impossible to win, on a foreign country's say-so, and then at the moment of final defeat not even being able to withdraw in orderly fashion. The responsibility for that last failure must surely lie with Boris Johnson who has been PM for two years, easily long enough to withdraw calmly and without panic. But given that he couldn't be bothered, quite possibly by this time tomorrow there will be a POW issue: "release prisoners you're holding in Guantanamo and Diego Garcia and we'll release the prisoners we took in Kabul who couldn't grab on to the helicopter skids in time." (Clue: do the f***ing deal. Much better to do the deal than have videos circulate of British embassy staff getting their heads cut off because you didn't.)
"Despite the decision of the Biden administration to withdraw the remaining US troops which triggered the collapse, Mr Ellwood said it was still not too late to turn the situation around.
He called for the despatch of the Royal Navy carrier strike group to the region and urged the Prime Minister to convene an emergency conference of "like-minded nations" to see what could be done."
What a maniac. Carpet-bombing on the way out of the door, huh? Remind me how that worked in Vietnam and Kampuchea. The only military issue now for Britain is the evacuation.
He's basically saying Biden has humiliated the West. Which is true, but from an unexpected source1
