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Some worrying statistics from America – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited August 15 in General
Some worrying statistics from America – politicalbetting.com

Vaccine latest via new Fox News poll:Biden voters:86% already vaccinated3% don't plan to get vaccinatedTrump voters:54% already vaccinated32% don't plan to get vaccinated

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,127
    First. Obviously it’s not as dramatic, but it’s worth saying that leave voters have a higher rate of vaccination than remainers. Given the age profile, it’s a good job, too.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,198
    edited August 15
    A chance for Donald Trump to say something presidential.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,198
    OT American burger chain Wendy's is coming to Britain and based on this job advert will also be using dark kitchens (ie not part of a restaurant) for delivery services. What is odd is that the advert wants people to be bilingual, without saying which two languages it wants. Presumably one of them is English.
    https://careers.reeftechnology.com/jobs/box-chef-greater-london-england-united-kingdom
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,198
    tlg86 said:

    First. Obviously it’s not as dramatic, but it’s worth saying that leave voters have a higher rate of vaccination than remainers. Given the age profile, it’s a good job, too.

    It is odd the way different beliefs cluster together. It has also been reported that leavers are more resistant to wearing masks, and you'd naively expect masks and vaccines to correlate. Why should either be connected to Brexit? (Unless there is a huge confounding factor such as age.)
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,127

    tlg86 said:

    First. Obviously it’s not as dramatic, but it’s worth saying that leave voters have a higher rate of vaccination than remainers. Given the age profile, it’s a good job, too.

    It is odd the way different beliefs cluster together. It has also been reported that leavers are more resistant to wearing masks, and you'd naively expect masks and vaccines to correlate. Why should either be connected to Brexit? (Unless there is a huge confounding factor such as age.)
    Logic, in my opinion. I’m not anti-mask as such, but I think they are utterly pointless now. I wore one up to St John’s Wood on Thursday as everyone else was. But it’s stupid and felt more confident not to bother on the way back.

    Vaccines work. They are the cure and life can go back to normal.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 24,423
    Morning all. Just a bit warmer today; 14degC. Excellent day's cricket yesterday, too!

    Couple of short shopping trips yesterday; few older people, including me, wearing masks actually in shops, but outside much less likely.

    Pretty sure all my family who can be vaccinated...... ie those over 18 .... have been.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,532
    69% of the world is not yet vaccinated. Why is a mutation particularly risky in the US where most have been vaccinated? With Delta so infectious it seems unlikely, if possible, that a new strain is both more infectious (to outcompete it) and significantly more dangerous.

    From a macabre but relevant political betting point of view, if we assume US covid deaths average 500 per day and break 3:1 Republican, it is a change of 365k voters over a 4 year cycle. The last two elections could have been swung by 80k and 40k votes (note this is misleading as it obviously depends which state the voters are in).

    The bigger political switch is probably whether the family and friends of those who die or suffer life changing consequences, who will also currently skew Republican, will blame Republicans or Democrats by 2024?
  • fox327fox327 Posts: 323
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    First. Obviously it’s not as dramatic, but it’s worth saying that leave voters have a higher rate of vaccination than remainers. Given the age profile, it’s a good job, too.

    It is odd the way different beliefs cluster together. It has also been reported that leavers are more resistant to wearing masks, and you'd naively expect masks and vaccines to correlate. Why should either be connected to Brexit? (Unless there is a huge confounding factor such as age.)
    Logic, in my opinion. I’m not anti-mask as such, but I think they are utterly pointless now. I wore one up to St John’s Wood on Thursday as everyone else was. But it’s stupid and felt more confident not to bother on the way back.

    Vaccines work. They are the cure and life can go back to normal.
    I agree that vaccines work. However the delta variant was not included in the original vaccine studies, and some vaccinated people are getting infected. We need to think about a booster programme with a vaccine that is engineered for the delta variant. I understand that Pfizer and Moderna may be working to develop such vaccines.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,532
    fox327 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    First. Obviously it’s not as dramatic, but it’s worth saying that leave voters have a higher rate of vaccination than remainers. Given the age profile, it’s a good job, too.

    It is odd the way different beliefs cluster together. It has also been reported that leavers are more resistant to wearing masks, and you'd naively expect masks and vaccines to correlate. Why should either be connected to Brexit? (Unless there is a huge confounding factor such as age.)
    Logic, in my opinion. I’m not anti-mask as such, but I think they are utterly pointless now. I wore one up to St John’s Wood on Thursday as everyone else was. But it’s stupid and felt more confident not to bother on the way back.

    Vaccines work. They are the cure and life can go back to normal.
    I agree that vaccines work. However the delta variant was not included in the original vaccine studies, and some vaccinated people are getting infected. We need to think about a booster programme with a vaccine that is engineered for the delta variant. I understand that Pfizer and Moderna may be working to develop such vaccines.
    The UK would have accepted a vaccine that had 40% efficacy. The idea that vaccinated people would never get infected has never been suggested by the medical regulators, vaccine producers or government.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,369
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    First. Obviously it’s not as dramatic, but it’s worth saying that leave voters have a higher rate of vaccination than remainers. Given the age profile, it’s a good job, too.

    It is odd the way different beliefs cluster together. It has also been reported that leavers are more resistant to wearing masks, and you'd naively expect masks and vaccines to correlate. Why should either be connected to Brexit? (Unless there is a huge confounding factor such as age.)
    Logic, in my opinion. I’m not anti-mask as such, but I think they are utterly pointless now. I wore one up to St John’s Wood on Thursday as everyone else was. But it’s stupid and felt more confident not to bother on the way back.

    Vaccines work. They are the cure and life can go back to normal.
    People have very short memories.

    This time last year we had a low and fairly stable infection rate with few legal restrictions. Normality seemed only just around the corner. Now the virus is much more transmissible and the infection rate is a lot higher than it was then, but the effects of vaccination are just about holding it in check.

    What changed before was essentially just the time of year. By November - at a time when the Alpha variant was geographically still very localised - we were back in lockdown, despite the virus having all but disappeared in the Summer.

    We can only hope Delta doesn't show the same seasonal variation. If it does, the people who are saying we don't need to worry about the infection rate because "vaccines work" need to bear in mind that the pressure point is hospital admissions rather than deaths, and that according to REACT the current hospitalisation rate per infection is about as high as it ever was.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 24,423
    Dura_Ace said:

    With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...

    They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.

    However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.

    It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.

    In fairness, Commander(?) Ace, the situation cannot be fixed by THIS Tory government; up until 2015 one could reasonably say that Tory governments were, generally speaking, pro-Europe.

    It's only under Johnson and his acolytes that the party has become rabid English Nationalists.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,198
    Dura_Ace said:

    With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...

    They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.

    However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.

    It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.

    Yebbut we've had more than a decade of more-or-less uncontrolled immigration under the Tories. Bosses get cheap workers and voters blame lefties. Win-win.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 15,541
    edited August 15
    So at some point the FDA is going to get around to giving the vaccine formal approval. After that the vaccine makers will be allowed to advertise on TV, and one of them will presumably pay Trump to do an ad for them, and after that his people will get their shots.

    It's true that in the meantime the US is giving the virus more chances to mutate in the US than it otherwise would, but the world as a whole is currently bottle-necked by vaccine supply not demand, so most of the vaccines that aren't being bought by Americans are being bought by someone else, generally a medium-income country with more people in greater need. So if Republicans want to take their time and die at slightly higher rates, I don't think that's a big problem for everybody else.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 40,720
    Chris said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    First. Obviously it’s not as dramatic, but it’s worth saying that leave voters have a higher rate of vaccination than remainers. Given the age profile, it’s a good job, too.

    It is odd the way different beliefs cluster together. It has also been reported that leavers are more resistant to wearing masks, and you'd naively expect masks and vaccines to correlate. Why should either be connected to Brexit? (Unless there is a huge confounding factor such as age.)
    Logic, in my opinion. I’m not anti-mask as such, but I think they are utterly pointless now. I wore one up to St John’s Wood on Thursday as everyone else was. But it’s stupid and felt more confident not to bother on the way back.

    Vaccines work. They are the cure and life can go back to normal.
    People have very short memories.

    This time last year we had a low and fairly stable infection rate with few legal restrictions. Normality seemed only just around the corner. Now the virus is much more transmissible and the infection rate is a lot higher than it was then, but the effects of vaccination are just about holding it in check.

    What changed before was essentially just the time of year. By November - at a time when the Alpha variant was geographically still very localised - we were back in lockdown, despite the virus having all but disappeared in the Summer.

    We can only hope Delta doesn't show the same seasonal variation. If it does, the people who are saying we don't need to worry about the infection rate because "vaccines work" need to bear in mind that the pressure point is hospital admissions rather than deaths, and that according to REACT the current hospitalisation rate per infection is about as high as it ever was.
    1. Viruses are not people. They do not have personality or act in certain ways. Cycles of infections - whether of Alpha or Delta - are the consequence of the number of people with antibodies and human behavior.

    2. The current hospitalization rate is not as high as it ever was. I mean, if you’d said “adjusted for age…”, you might have been accurate. But as a blanket statement, it is just plain wrong.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,209
    edited August 15

    Dura_Ace said:

    With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...

    They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.

    However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.

    It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.

    In fairness, Commander(?) Ace, the situation cannot be fixed by THIS Tory government; up until 2015 one could reasonably say that Tory governments were, generally speaking, pro-Europe.

    It's only under Johnson and his acolytes that the party has become rabid English Nationalists.
    So, what is more likely?

    1. the Conservative Party abandoning English Nationalism and becoming pro-Europe again, or
    2. a government of a different political complexion taking power

    Because one of those two things has to happen to solve the informal transmanche regatta.

    Path 2 seems far more likely than path 1.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,209

    OT American burger chain Wendy's is coming to Britain and based on this job advert will also be using dark kitchens (ie not part of a restaurant) for delivery services. What is odd is that the advert wants people to be bilingual, without saying which two languages it wants. Presumably one of them is English.
    https://careers.reeftechnology.com/jobs/box-chef-greater-london-england-united-kingdom

    Ils se préparent à l'invasion française.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,181
    ‘Long Covid may destroy the chances might make the GOP supporters of ObamaCare.’

    Is there a missing word there?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,181

    OT American burger chain Wendy's is coming to Britain and based on this job advert will also be using dark kitchens (ie not part of a restaurant) for delivery services. What is odd is that the advert wants people to be bilingual, without saying which two languages it wants. Presumably one of them is English.
    https://careers.reeftechnology.com/jobs/box-chef-greater-london-england-united-kingdom

    Ils se préparent à l'invasion française.
    Anyone proposing that is Crécy.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 3,999

    Dura_Ace said:

    With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...

    They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.

    However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.

    It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.

    In fairness, Commander(?) Ace, the situation cannot be fixed by THIS Tory government; up until 2015 one could reasonably say that Tory governments were, generally speaking, pro-Europe.

    It's only under Johnson and his acolytes that the party has become rabid English Nationalists.
    So, what is more likely?

    1. the Conservative Party abandoning English Nationalism and becoming pro-Europe again, or
    2. a government of a different political complexion taking power

    Because one of those two things has to happen to solve the informal transmanche regatta.

    Path 2 seems far more likely than path 1.
    Consider also that, at least since party leaders were chosen by members, the standard response to defeat is to double down on what the members want and moderation can go to hell.

    Suppose the Conservatives lose in 2024. Is the next LotO more likely to be a "Brexit with a human face" type (Hunt, say) or a "Boris's problem was he was just too soft on Europe, bless him" character (Patel or JRM, for example)?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 15,832
    I’m thrilled and delighted to see that the Festival of Brexit has been rechristened Festival UK 2022. Or #FUK22
    https://twitter.com/margarance/status/1426623297932906501
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,198
    edited August 15
    Rory Stewart:-
    Deeply disappointing to hear – on top of everything – that Afghans who received Scholarships from the UK government to study in the UK this year have now been told they will not be granted visas due to "administration issues". Surely someone can sort this out?
    https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1426558342709891078
  • eekeek Posts: 14,808

    Dura_Ace said:

    With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...

    They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.

    However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.

    It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.

    In fairness, Commander(?) Ace, the situation cannot be fixed by THIS Tory government; up until 2015 one could reasonably say that Tory governments were, generally speaking, pro-Europe.

    It's only under Johnson and his acolytes that the party has become rabid English Nationalists.
    So, what is more likely?

    1. the Conservative Party abandoning English Nationalism and becoming pro-Europe again, or
    2. a government of a different political complexion taking power

    Because one of those two things has to happen to solve the informal transmanche regatta.

    Path 2 seems far more likely than path 1.
    Consider also that, at least since party leaders were chosen by members, the standard response to defeat is to double down on what the members want and moderation can go to hell.

    Suppose the Conservatives lose in 2024. Is the next LotO more likely to be a "Brexit with a human face" type (Hunt, say) or a "Boris's problem was he was just too soft on Europe, bless him" character (Patel or JRM, for example)?
    It will always be the more extreme of the two members presented to them by the filtering committee of Tory MPs
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,209
    ydoethur said:

    OT American burger chain Wendy's is coming to Britain and based on this job advert will also be using dark kitchens (ie not part of a restaurant) for delivery services. What is odd is that the advert wants people to be bilingual, without saying which two languages it wants. Presumably one of them is English.
    https://careers.reeftechnology.com/jobs/box-chef-greater-london-england-united-kingdom

    Ils se préparent à l'invasion française.
    Anyone proposing that is Crécy.
    It’s a Lourdes of nonsense.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 24,175
    Dura_Ace said:

    With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...

    They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.

    However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.

    It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.

    Except of course that for many years the rest of Europe failed (and continues largely to fail) to deal with the issue of uncontrolled mass migration across their own Southern borders so the idea that suddenly they are going to come up with any sort of solution with or without the UK is fantasy. They lack both the political cohesion and the political will.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,447
    edited August 15

    OT American burger chain Wendy's is coming to Britain and based on this job advert will also be using dark kitchens (ie not part of a restaurant) for delivery services. What is odd is that the advert wants people to be bilingual, without saying which two languages it wants. Presumably one of them is English.
    https://careers.reeftechnology.com/jobs/box-chef-greater-london-england-united-kingdom

    Ils se préparent à l'invasion française.
    Does Dollys pantry still exist. They had a franchise at London Victoria . Was v good
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,198
    eek said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...

    They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.

    However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.

    It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.

    In fairness, Commander(?) Ace, the situation cannot be fixed by THIS Tory government; up until 2015 one could reasonably say that Tory governments were, generally speaking, pro-Europe.

    It's only under Johnson and his acolytes that the party has become rabid English Nationalists.
    So, what is more likely?

    1. the Conservative Party abandoning English Nationalism and becoming pro-Europe again, or
    2. a government of a different political complexion taking power

    Because one of those two things has to happen to solve the informal transmanche regatta.

    Path 2 seems far more likely than path 1.
    Consider also that, at least since party leaders were chosen by members, the standard response to defeat is to double down on what the members want and moderation can go to hell.

    Suppose the Conservatives lose in 2024. Is the next LotO more likely to be a "Brexit with a human face" type (Hunt, say) or a "Boris's problem was he was just too soft on Europe, bless him" character (Patel or JRM, for example)?
    It will always be the more extreme of the two members presented to them by the filtering committee of Tory MPs
    In one year, Conservative Party membership increased by 50 per cent. That's ordinary Conservatives enthused by Boris, you understand, and not entryists as you'd suspect with Labour. 2018, 120,000 members; 2019, 180,000. So be slightly careful in guessing which way members will vote in any leadership election. Past performance may be no guide.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,209

    Dura_Ace said:

    With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...

    They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.

    However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.

    It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.

    In fairness, Commander(?) Ace, the situation cannot be fixed by THIS Tory government; up until 2015 one could reasonably say that Tory governments were, generally speaking, pro-Europe.

    It's only under Johnson and his acolytes that the party has become rabid English Nationalists.
    So, what is more likely?

    1. the Conservative Party abandoning English Nationalism and becoming pro-Europe again, or
    2. a government of a different political complexion taking power

    Because one of those two things has to happen to solve the informal transmanche regatta.

    Path 2 seems far more likely than path 1.
    Consider also that, at least since party leaders were chosen by members, the standard response to defeat is to double down on what the members want and moderation can go to hell.

    Suppose the Conservatives lose in 2024. Is the next LotO more likely to be a "Brexit with a human face" type (Hunt, say) or a "Boris's problem was he was just too soft on Europe, bless him" character (Patel or JRM, for example)?
    When given a choice Tory members invariably go for the bampot solution.

    Is JRM the new IDS and Patel the new Howard?

    Who’s the Hague?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 7,675

    So at some point the FDA is going to get around to giving the vaccine formal approval. After that the vaccine makers will be allowed to advertise on TV, and one of them will presumably pay Trump to do an ad for them, and after that his people will get their shots.

    If Trump wants to run in 2024 he is going to have to tack to a more explicitly skeptical position on vaccines. His base fucking hate vaccines and hate it when he mentions them in a positive sense. He'll do it in typical fashion that has you questioning where the con ends and where dementia begins. He'll just say he's 'heard bad things', etc.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,209

    OT American burger chain Wendy's is coming to Britain and based on this job advert will also be using dark kitchens (ie not part of a restaurant) for delivery services. What is odd is that the advert wants people to be bilingual, without saying which two languages it wants. Presumably one of them is English.
    https://careers.reeftechnology.com/jobs/box-chef-greater-london-england-united-kingdom

    Ils se préparent à l'invasion française.
    Does Dooysvpantry still exist. The had a franchise at Lomdon Victoria . Was v good
    We usually post in English here, but we can try Typingwhiledrivingish if you like.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 30,984
    Weirdly Trump was extremely pro-vaccine and purchased shit loads of Pfizer, AZ and Moderna vaccine doses in his America First way that he did.

    I'm surprised that this can't be resolved with insurance companies making it mandatory for coverage. There would be s bit of moaning but it would get loads of those 16% of Biden voters and 46% of Trump voters over the line.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,447
    edited August 15

    eek said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...

    They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.

    However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.

    It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.

    In fairness, Commander(?) Ace, the situation cannot be fixed by THIS Tory government; up until 2015 one could reasonably say that Tory governments were, generally speaking, pro-Europe.

    It's only under Johnson and his acolytes that the party has become rabid English Nationalists.
    So, what is more likely?

    1. the Conservative Party abandoning English Nationalism and becoming pro-Europe again, or
    2. a government of a different political complexion taking power

    Because one of those two things has to happen to solve the informal transmanche regatta.

    Path 2 seems far more likely than path 1.
    Consider also that, at least since party leaders were chosen by members, the standard response to defeat is to double down on what the members want and moderation can go to hell.

    Suppose the Conservatives lose in 2024. Is the next LotO more likely to be a "Brexit with a human face" type (Hunt, say) or a "Boris's problem was he was just too soft on Europe, bless him" character (Patel or JRM, for example)?
    It will always be the more extreme of the two members presented to them by the filtering committee of Tory MPs
    In one year, Conservative Party membership increased by 50 per cent. That's ordinary Conservatives enthused by Boris, you understand, and not entryists as you'd suspect with Labour. 2018, 120,000 members; 2019, 180,000. So be slightly careful in guessing which way members will vote in any leadership election. Past performance may be no guide.
    Whereas i read on here that Labour was almost broke and could barely pay its head office staff. The Unions don't seem keen to cough up much at the moment.
  • eekeek Posts: 14,808
    MaxPB said:

    Weirdly Trump was extremely pro-vaccine and purchased shit loads of Pfizer, AZ and Moderna vaccine doses in his America First way that he did.

    I'm surprised that this can't be resolved with insurance companies making it mandatory for coverage. There would be s bit of moaning but it would get loads of those 16% of Biden voters and 46% of Trump voters over the line.

    zerohedge had a long article yesterday bemoaning the fact that airlines are making vaccination a compulsory requirement before flying.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,181
    MaxPB said:

    Weirdly Trump was extremely pro-vaccine and purchased shit loads of Pfizer, AZ and Moderna vaccine doses in his America First way that he did.

    I'm surprised that this can't be resolved with insurance companies making it mandatory for coverage. There would be s bit of moaning but it would get loads of those 16% of Biden voters and 46% of Trump voters over the line.

    It’s not that weird. Given his base would have ignored any restrictions, the smart thing to do was get them jabbed ASAP so they would live long enough to vote for him.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,082
    edited August 15
    The MP for Leeds NW’s response to footage of Leeds fans singing “Sancho & Rashford let the country down” at Old Trafford yesterday. A bit much to call for supporters to be banned for that I think, this is tame stuff

    ‘An absolute disgrace I hope @LUFC bans these people as they are no supporters of the club’

    https://twitter.com/alexsobel/status/1426542380610641922?s=21
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,181

    Rory Stewart:-
    Deeply disappointing to hear – on top of everything – that Afghans who received Scholarships from the UK government to study in the UK this year have now been told they will not be granted visas due to "administration issues". Surely someone can sort this out?
    https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1426558342709891078

    Disappointing, definitely.

    But hardly surprising given the shambles that are the DfE and the Home Office.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 15,832
    The Times reports that senior military sources say they find the Home Office reluctant to give asylum to those in Afghanistan with a clearly founded fear of persecution, due to work with UK, "because of the message it will send to other refugees" if we uphold our obligations https://twitter.com/trillingual/status/1426631700231168007
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,805
    ydoethur said:

    OT American burger chain Wendy's is coming to Britain and based on this job advert will also be using dark kitchens (ie not part of a restaurant) for delivery services. What is odd is that the advert wants people to be bilingual, without saying which two languages it wants. Presumably one of them is English.
    https://careers.reeftechnology.com/jobs/box-chef-greater-london-england-united-kingdom

    Ils se préparent à l'invasion française.
    Anyone proposing that is Crécy.
    They would be in Seine.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,198

    eek said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...

    They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.

    However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.

    It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.

    In fairness, Commander(?) Ace, the situation cannot be fixed by THIS Tory government; up until 2015 one could reasonably say that Tory governments were, generally speaking, pro-Europe.

    It's only under Johnson and his acolytes that the party has become rabid English Nationalists.
    So, what is more likely?

    1. the Conservative Party abandoning English Nationalism and becoming pro-Europe again, or
    2. a government of a different political complexion taking power

    Because one of those two things has to happen to solve the informal transmanche regatta.

    Path 2 seems far more likely than path 1.
    Consider also that, at least since party leaders were chosen by members, the standard response to defeat is to double down on what the members want and moderation can go to hell.

    Suppose the Conservatives lose in 2024. Is the next LotO more likely to be a "Brexit with a human face" type (Hunt, say) or a "Boris's problem was he was just too soft on Europe, bless him" character (Patel or JRM, for example)?
    It will always be the more extreme of the two members presented to them by the filtering committee of Tory MPs
    In one year, Conservative Party membership increased by 50 per cent. That's ordinary Conservatives enthused by Boris, you understand, and not entryists as you'd suspect with Labour. 2018, 120,000 members; 2019, 180,000. So be slightly careful in guessing which way members will vote in any leadership election. Past performance may be no guide.
    Whereas i read on here that Labour was almost broke and could barely pay its head office staff. The Unions don't seem keen to cough up much at the moment.
    That is true but Labour-affiliated trade unions don't get to vote on the next leader of the Conservative Party. The point is that the sudden, large (50 per cent in a single year) surge in Conservative Party membership may have changed its nature, which should be borne in mind when betting on the next leader.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,181
    edited August 15
    Scott_xP said:

    The Times reports that senior military sources say they find the Home Office reluctant to give asylum to those in Afghanistan with a clearly founded fear of persecution, due to work with UK, "because of the message it will send to other refugees" if we uphold our obligations https://twitter.com/trillingual/status/1426631700231168007

    A horrible statement that should lead to sackings, if true.

    But I suspect - although the person who said it should still be sacked - that the real reason is they don’t want to admit they’re actually incapable of processing the paperwork.

    Here’s one example that shows just how chaotic they are:

    https://www.gloscricket.co.uk/news/statement-on-graeme-van-buuren/

    Four months on, he’s still waiting.

    Now if they cannot sort one piece of paper in a timely fashion for somebody who has lived in the UK for years, is married to a British subject, is employed by a British organisation in a well paid role, and applied well in advance of the deadline, what chance have they got of sorting the paperwork for thousands of penniless Afghan refugees?

    And of course they don’t care about promises or integrity or anything else.

    So they first renege on the promises and then lie.

    There’s a plausible scenario.

    And those Afghans who tried to help us are the ones who lose out.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 24,175
    ydoethur said:

    Rory Stewart:-
    Deeply disappointing to hear – on top of everything – that Afghans who received Scholarships from the UK government to study in the UK this year have now been told they will not be granted visas due to "administration issues". Surely someone can sort this out?
    https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1426558342709891078

    Disappointing, definitely.

    But hardly surprising given the shambles that are the DfE and the Home Office.
    Shouldn't that more accurately be the whole Government rather than just specific departments.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 709

    Rory Stewart:-
    Deeply disappointing to hear – on top of everything – that Afghans who received Scholarships from the UK government to study in the UK this year have now been told they will not be granted visas due to "administration issues". Surely someone can sort this out?
    https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1426558342709891078

    Hardly any point now though. There are only about 10 flights out of Afghanistan per day, and of course, they are full (you can only board if you have a negative coronavirus test).

    You've got to admire the insanity. Woke governments (of which the US and to a lesser extent the UK are included) are in a performative panic about racism and womens rights; whilst they actively abandon a whole generation of young women to a life of rape and slavery, if they survive at all; in an actual patriarchial hell.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 3,999
    ydoethur said:

    Rory Stewart:-
    Deeply disappointing to hear – on top of everything – that Afghans who received Scholarships from the UK government to study in the UK this year have now been told they will not be granted visas due to "administration issues". Surely someone can sort this out?
    https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1426558342709891078

    Disappointing, definitely.

    But hardly surprising given the shambles that are the DfE and the Home Office.
    I know the general principle is to never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence.

    The Home Office may be the one exception to that.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,181

    ydoethur said:

    Rory Stewart:-
    Deeply disappointing to hear – on top of everything – that Afghans who received Scholarships from the UK government to study in the UK this year have now been told they will not be granted visas due to "administration issues". Surely someone can sort this out?
    https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1426558342709891078

    Disappointing, definitely.

    But hardly surprising given the shambles that are the DfE and the Home Office.
    Shouldn't that more accurately be the whole Government rather than just specific departments.
    One or two are still doing OK. Trade. DEFRA.

    After that I admit I start to struggle.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,648
    Dura_Ace said:

    With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...

    They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.

    However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.

    It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.

    In 2019 the number of people returned to other countries under the Dublin conventions was 209. For the entire year. Over 900 came the other way. To put the 209 in context we have to realise more people arrived here from France yesterday and the day before and etc.

    There is no chance of any kind of deal with the EU which is going to have a material impact on the number of asylum seekers coming here. We didn't have one when we were fully signed up members of the EU and we don't have one now. I suspect that most of them think we have a much less significant problem than those countries facing the Med or in the Balkans have.

    We now have a disaster in Afghanistan which is going to generate hundreds of thousands of more refugees, many of whom will have English as a second language and some of whom will already have relatives here. There are no solutions to this problem I'm afraid. The government talks tough because that's what their supporters want to hear but the reality is that unless we start opening fire on those in the Channel nothing is going to stop large scale immigration here.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 3,553
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    OT American burger chain Wendy's is coming to Britain and based on this job advert will also be using dark kitchens (ie not part of a restaurant) for delivery services. What is odd is that the advert wants people to be bilingual, without saying which two languages it wants. Presumably one of them is English.
    https://careers.reeftechnology.com/jobs/box-chef-greater-london-england-united-kingdom

    Ils se préparent à l'invasion française.
    Anyone proposing that is Crécy.
    They would be in Seine.
    I’m not so sure, but more your Provence than mine.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,181

    ydoethur said:

    Rory Stewart:-
    Deeply disappointing to hear – on top of everything – that Afghans who received Scholarships from the UK government to study in the UK this year have now been told they will not be granted visas due to "administration issues". Surely someone can sort this out?
    https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1426558342709891078

    Disappointing, definitely.

    But hardly surprising given the shambles that are the DfE and the Home Office.
    I know the general principle is to never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence.

    The Home Office may be the one exception to that.
    With the HO surely you assume both malice *and* incompetence?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 15,832
    Biden, last month: "The Taliban is not the North Vietnamese army. They’re not remotely comparable in terms of capability. There’s going to be no circumstance where you see people being lifted off the roof of the embassy of the United States from Afghanistan." https://twitter.com/LizSly/status/1426801235966021634
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,648
    darkage said:

    Rory Stewart:-
    Deeply disappointing to hear – on top of everything – that Afghans who received Scholarships from the UK government to study in the UK this year have now been told they will not be granted visas due to "administration issues". Surely someone can sort this out?
    https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1426558342709891078

    Hardly any point now though. There are only about 10 flights out of Afghanistan per day, and of course, they are full (you can only board if you have a negative coronavirus test).

    You've got to admire the insanity. Woke governments (of which the US and to a lesser extent the UK are included) are in a performative panic about racism and womens rights; whilst they actively abandon a whole generation of young women to a life of rape and slavery, if they survive at all; in an actual patriarchial hell.
    Whilst this is sadly true what is your solution: that we keep fighting?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 4,447
    isam said:

    The MP for Leeds NW’s response to footage of Leeds fans singing “Sancho & Rashford let the country down” at Old Trafford yesterday. A bit much to call for supporters to be banned for that I think, this is tame stuff

    ‘An absolute disgrace I hope @LUFC bans these people as they are no supporters of the club’

    https://twitter.com/alexsobel/status/1426542380610641922?s=21

    Deary me.. people are getting sensitive. You should have listened to what went on in the 70s and 80s. This really is tame by comparison... ir might not be nice but you will never stop it.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 709
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The Times reports that senior military sources say they find the Home Office reluctant to give asylum to those in Afghanistan with a clearly founded fear of persecution, due to work with UK, "because of the message it will send to other refugees" if we uphold our obligations https://twitter.com/trillingual/status/1426631700231168007

    A horrible statement that should lead to sackings, if true.

    But I suspect - although the person who said it should still be sacked - that the real reason is they don’t want to admit they’re actually incapable of processing the paperwork.

    Here’s one example that shows just how chaotic they are:

    https://www.gloscricket.co.uk/news/statement-on-graeme-van-buuren/

    Four months on, he’s still waiting.

    Now if they cannot sort one piece of paper in a timely fashion for somebody who has lived in the UK for years, is married to a British subject, is employed by a British organisation in a well paid role, and applied well in advance of the deadline, what chance have they got of sorting the paperwork for thousands of penniless Afghan refugees?

    And of course they don’t care about promises or integrity or anything else.

    So they first renege on the promises and then lie.

    There’s a plausible scenario.

    And those Afghans who tried to help us are the ones who lose out.
    I've been quite surprised that more hasn't been made of the link between the collapse of Afghanistan and Patel's migrant problems.

    Firstly the afghans who are here can no longer be deported as Afghanistan is no longer safe. Secondly, you are looking at millions more potential refugees because of the Taliban takeover. Thirdly, how can they be turned away?

    Its more than a problem of slow paperwork.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,209
    kinabalu said:

    I shouldn't think any of the Scot Nat posters will care but, for the record..

    I'm against Scottish independence because I like the UK. It's the country I feel I've always lived in, and it's a special one because we get to be English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish, or a mix, as well or instead if we want. But I'm not particularly attached to that, and would wish an independent Scotland well while supporting constructive engagement between Scot/RUK governments and people.

    I can easily imagine that if I were born, raised and living in Scotland, I might be an independence supporter. For much the same reasons that I supported Brexit as a Brit.

    I sometimes enjoy the banter on here over the divide, but sometimes it just seems to get unnecessarily nasty. I don't know if there's really anything in that, or if it's just down to my mood on reading it.

    Please play nicely :smiley:

    See, now this is exactly the sentiment that the other day I was explaining one would expect to hear on Scottish independence from an English Leaver who values the Union. Here we have it from the horse's mouth and it's good to see. Real empathy for the core Sindy argument of sovereignty (this being the core Brexit argument too) whilst nevertheless disagreeing with it and hoping it never comes to pass. This scans. It works.

    A stark contrast with those English Leavers who are viscerally 100% anti Sindy and the SNP, who think the subsidized Scots are crazy to want independence, that they have a cheek to even think about it.

    This latter group - no names no packdrill - are SCOTAPHOBES.
    If you did fancy naming names, it’s a very long list. It would be much quicker to list the exceptions.

    Hate to quibble, but I’m not entirely comfortable with your word “Scotaphobe” there. It just looks wrong.

    Obviously anti-Scottish sentiment does exist, and therefore needs a word or term, but consensus seems to be lacking.

    Wikipedia (oh oh) suggests “Scotophobe” or “Albaphobe”, but the first is also fear of darkness and the second might suggest hatred of a new political party, Sainsbury’s electronic products or a BBC television channel.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Scottish_sentiment

    “Scotaphobe” does google, but it seems to be largely social media. Given that the phenomenon has existed since the Middle Ages, you’d have thought that a word would have established itself.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 3,471

    Rory Stewart:-
    Deeply disappointing to hear – on top of everything – that Afghans who received Scholarships from the UK government to study in the UK this year have now been told they will not be granted visas due to "administration issues". Surely someone can sort this out?
    https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1426558342709891078

    Well its a shame in a way for a few afghans but hardly central to the tragedy is it? On a general point about such scholarships what is the thinking behind them anyway? Why are Uk students epected to pay 50K for a university education but some chosen Afghans get it free? To do what ? Go back to defend their country against the talaban? Well thats failed hasnt it?
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,760

    isam said:

    The MP for Leeds NW’s response to footage of Leeds fans singing “Sancho & Rashford let the country down” at Old Trafford yesterday. A bit much to call for supporters to be banned for that I think, this is tame stuff

    ‘An absolute disgrace I hope @LUFC bans these people as they are no supporters of the club’

    https://twitter.com/alexsobel/status/1426542380610641922?s=21

    Deary me.. people are getting sensitive. You should have listened to what went on in the 70s and 80s. This really is tame by comparison... ir might not be nice but you will never stop it.
    I find this an interesting argument given that, as you say, we have stopped what went on in the 70s and 80s. Leaving aside whether it is right, football clubs clearly are capable of policing their fans' behaviour to a reasonably significant extent.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,648
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The Times reports that senior military sources say they find the Home Office reluctant to give asylum to those in Afghanistan with a clearly founded fear of persecution, due to work with UK, "because of the message it will send to other refugees" if we uphold our obligations https://twitter.com/trillingual/status/1426631700231168007

    A horrible statement that should lead to sackings, if true.

    But I suspect - although the person who said it should still be sacked - that the real reason is they don’t want to admit they’re actually incapable of processing the paperwork.

    Here’s one example that shows just how chaotic they are:

    https://www.gloscricket.co.uk/news/statement-on-graeme-van-buuren/

    Four months on, he’s still waiting.

    Now if they cannot sort one piece of paper in a timely fashion for somebody who has lived in the UK for years, is married to a British subject, is employed by a British organisation in a well paid role, and applied well in advance of the deadline, what chance have they got of sorting the paperwork for thousands of penniless Afghan refugees?

    And of course they don’t care about promises or integrity or anything else.

    So they first renege on the promises and then lie.

    There’s a plausible scenario.

    And those Afghans who tried to help us are the ones who lose out.
    The Home office did manage to process 6m rights to remain for EU citizens in under 18 months. It is not the capacity they lack, its the will.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,805
    Scott_xP said:

    The Times reports that senior military sources say they find the Home Office reluctant to give asylum to those in Afghanistan with a clearly founded fear of persecution, due to work with UK, "because of the message it will send to other refugees" if we uphold our obligations https://twitter.com/trillingual/status/1426631700231168007

    That old adage from the region is being proven right. "It is better to be an enemy of the British than their friend, because they buy their enemies and sell their friends"

    There is no reason that we couldn't give out asylum visas in Kabul if we wanted, a Wallenberg type programme. That would be a much improved asylum programme over the current deportation policy.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,805

    Rory Stewart:-
    Deeply disappointing to hear – on top of everything – that Afghans who received Scholarships from the UK government to study in the UK this year have now been told they will not be granted visas due to "administration issues". Surely someone can sort this out?
    https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1426558342709891078

    Well its a shame in a way for a few afghans but hardly central to the tragedy is it? On a general point about such scholarships what is the thinking behind them anyway? Why are Uk students epected to pay 50K for a university education but some chosen Afghans get it free? To do what ? Go back to defend their country against the talaban? Well thats failed hasnt it?
    By denying them student visas we effectively prevent them from claiming asylum.

    Presumably those on these scholarships are vetted, indeed seen as a vanguard for our values.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 709
    DavidL said:

    darkage said:

    Rory Stewart:-
    Deeply disappointing to hear – on top of everything – that Afghans who received Scholarships from the UK government to study in the UK this year have now been told they will not be granted visas due to "administration issues". Surely someone can sort this out?
    https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1426558342709891078

    Hardly any point now though. There are only about 10 flights out of Afghanistan per day, and of course, they are full (you can only board if you have a negative coronavirus test).

    You've got to admire the insanity. Woke governments (of which the US and to a lesser extent the UK are included) are in a performative panic about racism and womens rights; whilst they actively abandon a whole generation of young women to a life of rape and slavery, if they survive at all; in an actual patriarchial hell.
    Whilst this is sadly true what is your solution: that we keep fighting?
    There is no solution; obviously the problem was in trying to achieve liberal democracy and womens rights by way of regime change, too late now to go back in time and change that. It was more a comment on the obsession with identity politics: as an obsessive and possibly disproportionate amount of effort is spent achieving 'progress' in a small number of western countries, the rest of the world takes giant leaps backwards, and it all largely passes without significant comment or interest outside the old school legacy media.
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,692

    ydoethur said:

    OT American burger chain Wendy's is coming to Britain and based on this job advert will also be using dark kitchens (ie not part of a restaurant) for delivery services. What is odd is that the advert wants people to be bilingual, without saying which two languages it wants. Presumably one of them is English.
    https://careers.reeftechnology.com/jobs/box-chef-greater-london-england-united-kingdom

    Ils se préparent à l'invasion française.
    Anyone proposing that is Crécy.
    It’s a Lourdes of nonsense.
    That is bordeauxing on a good response.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,181
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The Times reports that senior military sources say they find the Home Office reluctant to give asylum to those in Afghanistan with a clearly founded fear of persecution, due to work with UK, "because of the message it will send to other refugees" if we uphold our obligations https://twitter.com/trillingual/status/1426631700231168007

    A horrible statement that should lead to sackings, if true.

    But I suspect - although the person who said it should still be sacked - that the real reason is they don’t want to admit they’re actually incapable of processing the paperwork.

    Here’s one example that shows just how chaotic they are:

    https://www.gloscricket.co.uk/news/statement-on-graeme-van-buuren/

    Four months on, he’s still waiting.

    Now if they cannot sort one piece of paper in a timely fashion for somebody who has lived in the UK for years, is married to a British subject, is employed by a British organisation in a well paid role, and applied well in advance of the deadline, what chance have they got of sorting the paperwork for thousands of penniless Afghan refugees?

    And of course they don’t care about promises or integrity or anything else.

    So they first renege on the promises and then lie.

    There’s a plausible scenario.

    And those Afghans who tried to help us are the ones who lose out.
    The Home office did manage to process 6m rights to remain for EU citizens in under 18 months. It is not the capacity they lack, its the will.
    They *claim* to have processed the 6m.

    The reality is not quite so clear cut.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,209

    eek said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...

    They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.

    However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.

    It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.

    In fairness, Commander(?) Ace, the situation cannot be fixed by THIS Tory government; up until 2015 one could reasonably say that Tory governments were, generally speaking, pro-Europe.

    It's only under Johnson and his acolytes that the party has become rabid English Nationalists.
    So, what is more likely?

    1. the Conservative Party abandoning English Nationalism and becoming pro-Europe again, or
    2. a government of a different political complexion taking power

    Because one of those two things has to happen to solve the informal transmanche regatta.

    Path 2 seems far more likely than path 1.
    Consider also that, at least since party leaders were chosen by members, the standard response to defeat is to double down on what the members want and moderation can go to hell.

    Suppose the Conservatives lose in 2024. Is the next LotO more likely to be a "Brexit with a human face" type (Hunt, say) or a "Boris's problem was he was just too soft on Europe, bless him" character (Patel or JRM, for example)?
    It will always be the more extreme of the two members presented to them by the filtering committee of Tory MPs
    In one year, Conservative Party membership increased by 50 per cent. That's ordinary Conservatives enthused by Boris, you understand, and not entryists as you'd suspect with Labour. 2018, 120,000 members; 2019, 180,000. So be slightly careful in guessing which way members will vote in any leadership election. Past performance may be no guide.
    Whereas i read on here that Labour was almost broke and could barely pay its head office staff. The Unions don't seem keen to cough up much at the moment.
    Talking of trade unions, I’ve just spotted this new market:

    Best prices - Unite General Secretary election

    Steve Turner 10/11
    Gerard Coyne 2/1
    Sharon Graham 11/4
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,209
    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    OT American burger chain Wendy's is coming to Britain and based on this job advert will also be using dark kitchens (ie not part of a restaurant) for delivery services. What is odd is that the advert wants people to be bilingual, without saying which two languages it wants. Presumably one of them is English.
    https://careers.reeftechnology.com/jobs/box-chef-greater-london-england-united-kingdom

    Ils se préparent à l'invasion française.
    Anyone proposing that is Crécy.
    It’s a Lourdes of nonsense.
    That is bordeauxing on a good response.
    I was pulling his liège.
  • felixfelix Posts: 13,692

    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    OT American burger chain Wendy's is coming to Britain and based on this job advert will also be using dark kitchens (ie not part of a restaurant) for delivery services. What is odd is that the advert wants people to be bilingual, without saying which two languages it wants. Presumably one of them is English.
    https://careers.reeftechnology.com/jobs/box-chef-greater-london-england-united-kingdom

    Ils se préparent à l'invasion française.
    Anyone proposing that is Crécy.
    It’s a Lourdes of nonsense.
    That is bordeauxing on a good response.
    I was pulling his liège.
    Ah - now you'vr rouened it!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,181

    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    OT American burger chain Wendy's is coming to Britain and based on this job advert will also be using dark kitchens (ie not part of a restaurant) for delivery services. What is odd is that the advert wants people to be bilingual, without saying which two languages it wants. Presumably one of them is English.
    https://careers.reeftechnology.com/jobs/box-chef-greater-london-england-united-kingdom

    Ils se préparent à l'invasion française.
    Anyone proposing that is Crécy.
    It’s a Lourdes of nonsense.
    That is bordeauxing on a good response.
    I was pulling his liège.
    I Marseille these puns are getting silly.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,648
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The Times reports that senior military sources say they find the Home Office reluctant to give asylum to those in Afghanistan with a clearly founded fear of persecution, due to work with UK, "because of the message it will send to other refugees" if we uphold our obligations https://twitter.com/trillingual/status/1426631700231168007

    A horrible statement that should lead to sackings, if true.

    But I suspect - although the person who said it should still be sacked - that the real reason is they don’t want to admit they’re actually incapable of processing the paperwork.

    Here’s one example that shows just how chaotic they are:

    https://www.gloscricket.co.uk/news/statement-on-graeme-van-buuren/

    Four months on, he’s still waiting.

    Now if they cannot sort one piece of paper in a timely fashion for somebody who has lived in the UK for years, is married to a British subject, is employed by a British organisation in a well paid role, and applied well in advance of the deadline, what chance have they got of sorting the paperwork for thousands of penniless Afghan refugees?

    And of course they don’t care about promises or integrity or anything else.

    So they first renege on the promises and then lie.

    There’s a plausible scenario.

    And those Afghans who tried to help us are the ones who lose out.
    The Home office did manage to process 6m rights to remain for EU citizens in under 18 months. It is not the capacity they lack, its the will.
    They *claim* to have processed the 6m.

    The reality is not quite so clear cut.
    The reality seems to be that the number of EU citizens living in the UK was several million more than we thought. Quelle surprise as our French neighbours would say.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,188
    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    OT American burger chain Wendy's is coming to Britain and based on this job advert will also be using dark kitchens (ie not part of a restaurant) for delivery services. What is odd is that the advert wants people to be bilingual, without saying which two languages it wants. Presumably one of them is English.
    https://careers.reeftechnology.com/jobs/box-chef-greater-london-england-united-kingdom

    Ils se préparent à l'invasion française.
    Anyone proposing that is Crécy.
    It’s a Lourdes of nonsense.
    That is bordeauxing on a good response.
    You only have your pride left Toulouse.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,648
    darkage said:

    DavidL said:

    darkage said:

    Rory Stewart:-
    Deeply disappointing to hear – on top of everything – that Afghans who received Scholarships from the UK government to study in the UK this year have now been told they will not be granted visas due to "administration issues". Surely someone can sort this out?
    https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1426558342709891078

    Hardly any point now though. There are only about 10 flights out of Afghanistan per day, and of course, they are full (you can only board if you have a negative coronavirus test).

    You've got to admire the insanity. Woke governments (of which the US and to a lesser extent the UK are included) are in a performative panic about racism and womens rights; whilst they actively abandon a whole generation of young women to a life of rape and slavery, if they survive at all; in an actual patriarchial hell.
    Whilst this is sadly true what is your solution: that we keep fighting?
    There is no solution; obviously the problem was in trying to achieve liberal democracy and womens rights by way of regime change, too late now to go back in time and change that. It was more a comment on the obsession with identity politics: as an obsessive and possibly disproportionate amount of effort is spent achieving 'progress' in a small number of western countries, the rest of the world takes giant leaps backwards, and it all largely passes without significant comment or interest outside the old school legacy media.
    I agree with you but successive UK governments did pour hundreds of millions into the education of female Afghans in the hope that this would create a more equal society. It's not as if we did nothing. We just failed. But it is undeniable that it puts the obsession with our supposed patriarchy here into perspective.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,181
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The Times reports that senior military sources say they find the Home Office reluctant to give asylum to those in Afghanistan with a clearly founded fear of persecution, due to work with UK, "because of the message it will send to other refugees" if we uphold our obligations https://twitter.com/trillingual/status/1426631700231168007

    A horrible statement that should lead to sackings, if true.

    But I suspect - although the person who said it should still be sacked - that the real reason is they don’t want to admit they’re actually incapable of processing the paperwork.

    Here’s one example that shows just how chaotic they are:

    https://www.gloscricket.co.uk/news/statement-on-graeme-van-buuren/

    Four months on, he’s still waiting.

    Now if they cannot sort one piece of paper in a timely fashion for somebody who has lived in the UK for years, is married to a British subject, is employed by a British organisation in a well paid role, and applied well in advance of the deadline, what chance have they got of sorting the paperwork for thousands of penniless Afghan refugees?

    And of course they don’t care about promises or integrity or anything else.

    So they first renege on the promises and then lie.

    There’s a plausible scenario.

    And those Afghans who tried to help us are the ones who lose out.
    The Home office did manage to process 6m rights to remain for EU citizens in under 18 months. It is not the capacity they lack, its the will.
    They *claim* to have processed the 6m.

    The reality is not quite so clear cut.
    The reality seems to be that the number of EU citizens living in the UK was several million more than we thought. Quelle surprise as our French neighbours would say.
    Isn’t it the job of the Home Office to have some idea of who’s here?

    So even if that’s the correct explanation, we’re still looking at total incompetence.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 56,949
    edited August 15
    Mr. Away, it is rather bedwetting. Like when a Labour MP (I forget the name, alas, he formerly trained as a priest) wanted Delilah no longer sung at Welsh rugby matches.

    Edited extra bit: may've been Chris someone-or-other.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,648
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The Times reports that senior military sources say they find the Home Office reluctant to give asylum to those in Afghanistan with a clearly founded fear of persecution, due to work with UK, "because of the message it will send to other refugees" if we uphold our obligations https://twitter.com/trillingual/status/1426631700231168007

    A horrible statement that should lead to sackings, if true.

    But I suspect - although the person who said it should still be sacked - that the real reason is they don’t want to admit they’re actually incapable of processing the paperwork.

    Here’s one example that shows just how chaotic they are:

    https://www.gloscricket.co.uk/news/statement-on-graeme-van-buuren/

    Four months on, he’s still waiting.

    Now if they cannot sort one piece of paper in a timely fashion for somebody who has lived in the UK for years, is married to a British subject, is employed by a British organisation in a well paid role, and applied well in advance of the deadline, what chance have they got of sorting the paperwork for thousands of penniless Afghan refugees?

    And of course they don’t care about promises or integrity or anything else.

    So they first renege on the promises and then lie.

    There’s a plausible scenario.

    And those Afghans who tried to help us are the ones who lose out.
    The Home office did manage to process 6m rights to remain for EU citizens in under 18 months. It is not the capacity they lack, its the will.
    They *claim* to have processed the 6m.

    The reality is not quite so clear cut.
    The reality seems to be that the number of EU citizens living in the UK was several million more than we thought. Quelle surprise as our French neighbours would say.
    Isn’t it the job of the Home Office to have some idea of who’s here?

    So even if that’s the correct explanation, we’re still looking at total incompetence.
    Border Force is undoubtedly totally incompetent or is so under resourced as to be made so. But do you find it remotely surprising that governments before this one were quite keen to underestimate the number of EU citizens here?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,805
    ydoethur said:

    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    OT American burger chain Wendy's is coming to Britain and based on this job advert will also be using dark kitchens (ie not part of a restaurant) for delivery services. What is odd is that the advert wants people to be bilingual, without saying which two languages it wants. Presumably one of them is English.
    https://careers.reeftechnology.com/jobs/box-chef-greater-london-england-united-kingdom

    Ils se préparent à l'invasion française.
    Anyone proposing that is Crécy.
    It’s a Lourdes of nonsense.
    That is bordeauxing on a good response.
    I was pulling his liège.
    I Marseille these puns are getting silly.

    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    OT American burger chain Wendy's is coming to Britain and based on this job advert will also be using dark kitchens (ie not part of a restaurant) for delivery services. What is odd is that the advert wants people to be bilingual, without saying which two languages it wants. Presumably one of them is English.
    https://careers.reeftechnology.com/jobs/box-chef-greater-london-england-united-kingdom

    Ils se préparent à l'invasion française.
    Anyone proposing that is Crécy.
    It’s a Lourdes of nonsense.
    That is bordeauxing on a good response.
    You only have your pride left Toulouse.
    Corsican only get worse.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,532

    Rory Stewart:-
    Deeply disappointing to hear – on top of everything – that Afghans who received Scholarships from the UK government to study in the UK this year have now been told they will not be granted visas due to "administration issues". Surely someone can sort this out?
    https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1426558342709891078

    Gavin Williamson here is your chance to shine!
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 648
    Dura_Ace said:

    With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...

    They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.

    However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.

    It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.

    Paragraph 2 directly contradicts paragraphs 3 and 4. We know that the boat people problem can be resolved entirely by firm action by the Government, without needing e.g. to throw tens of millions of pounds at the French (such bribery constituting a terribly odd definition of "shitting" on them, BTW,) because the Australians have managed to do this. They didn't need to negotiate agreements with Indonesia to take the migrants back - they simply said "You aren't coming in" and dumped them all on a remote rock thousands of miles from Australia, until those following got the message and ceased bothering to try. Job done.

    So, let us park the morality of the situation for a moment and focus on the practicalities. It would not be terribly difficult for the Government to negotiate an agreement with a friendly state like Sierra Leone (Commonwealth, dirt poor, saved from limb chopping psychopaths by that nice Mr Blair, would probably rather like a fat fee of $250m per annum) to build a giant internment camp. You then legislate to automatically disqualify the boat people from claiming asylum, amend the HRA to prevent the activist lawyers from using it to prevent them from being deported, dump them there and forget about them. In crude terms, it would make Labour's voters howl but the Tories' would be delighted.

    Since neither the Government nor its supporters want the mass influx of irregular undocumented migrants on inflatable rafts to continue, then the most logical explanation for not taking actions that are entirely within its power to stop them is that it is too nice. It won't cast them into an oubliette because, unlike in the Australian case, ministers' consciences wouldn't wear it. Remarkable but quite possibly true.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 29,568
    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...

    They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.

    However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.

    It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.

    In 2019 the number of people returned to other countries under the Dublin conventions was 209. For the entire year. Over 900 came the other way. To put the 209 in context we have to realise more people arrived here from France yesterday and the day before and etc.

    There is no chance of any kind of deal with the EU which is going to have a material impact on the number of asylum seekers coming here. We didn't have one when we were fully signed up members of the EU and we don't have one now. I suspect that most of them think we have a much less significant problem than those countries facing the Med or in the Balkans have.

    We now have a disaster in Afghanistan which is going to generate hundreds of thousands of more refugees, many of whom will have English as a second language and some of whom will already have relatives here. There are no solutions to this problem I'm afraid. The government talks tough because that's what their supporters want to hear but the reality is that unless we start opening fire on those in the Channel nothing is going to stop large scale immigration here.
    Unless things have changed radically since 2018 the UK does have a much less significant problem with asylum seekers than the EU in general. That the UK has a much bigger psychological problem with asylum seekers isn’t likely to generate much sympathy.

    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1417739718452785152?s=21
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,181
    edited August 15
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The Times reports that senior military sources say they find the Home Office reluctant to give asylum to those in Afghanistan with a clearly founded fear of persecution, due to work with UK, "because of the message it will send to other refugees" if we uphold our obligations https://twitter.com/trillingual/status/1426631700231168007

    A horrible statement that should lead to sackings, if true.

    But I suspect - although the person who said it should still be sacked - that the real reason is they don’t want to admit they’re actually incapable of processing the paperwork.

    Here’s one example that shows just how chaotic they are:

    https://www.gloscricket.co.uk/news/statement-on-graeme-van-buuren/

    Four months on, he’s still waiting.

    Now if they cannot sort one piece of paper in a timely fashion for somebody who has lived in the UK for years, is married to a British subject, is employed by a British organisation in a well paid role, and applied well in advance of the deadline, what chance have they got of sorting the paperwork for thousands of penniless Afghan refugees?

    And of course they don’t care about promises or integrity or anything else.

    So they first renege on the promises and then lie.

    There’s a plausible scenario.

    And those Afghans who tried to help us are the ones who lose out.
    The Home office did manage to process 6m rights to remain for EU citizens in under 18 months. It is not the capacity they lack, its the will.
    They *claim* to have processed the 6m.

    The reality is not quite so clear cut.
    The reality seems to be that the number of EU citizens living in the UK was several million more than we thought. Quelle surprise as our French neighbours would say.
    Isn’t it the job of the Home Office to have some idea of who’s here?

    So even if that’s the correct explanation, we’re still looking at total incompetence.
    Border Force is undoubtedly totally incompetent or is so under resourced as to be made so. But do you find it remotely surprising that governments before this one were quite keen to underestimate the number of EU citizens here?
    It ought to have been easy to make a fairly reliable estimate, even if that was not the one released (and again, would dishonesty have surprised anyone)? NI numbers, numbers in schools, hospital admissions would all give an indication.

    I’m not giving them a pass on this. They’re more useless than Johnson’s chastity belt.
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,004
    Quincel said:

    isam said:

    The MP for Leeds NW’s response to footage of Leeds fans singing “Sancho & Rashford let the country down” at Old Trafford yesterday. A bit much to call for supporters to be banned for that I think, this is tame stuff

    ‘An absolute disgrace I hope @LUFC bans these people as they are no supporters of the club’

    https://twitter.com/alexsobel/status/1426542380610641922?s=21

    Deary me.. people are getting sensitive. You should have listened to what went on in the 70s and 80s. This really is tame by comparison... ir might not be nice but you will never stop it.
    I find this an interesting argument given that, as you say, we have stopped what went on in the 70s and 80s. Leaving aside whether it is right, football clubs clearly are capable of policing their fans' behaviour to a reasonably significant extent.
    Yes, clubs do police their fans behaviour and, currently, it seems they do so in a reasonable way.

    But do you really think banning these people for this song is justified in any way, shape or form ?

    Over a harmless chant. If they were making monkey noises or racist chanting then they should be banned. The fans caught on film fighting in Manchester yesterday, largely posted on Twitter, should be banned. A ban for This song. No way.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,532

    Dura_Ace said:

    With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...

    They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.

    However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.

    It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.

    In fairness, Commander(?) Ace, the situation cannot be fixed by THIS Tory government; up until 2015 one could reasonably say that Tory governments were, generally speaking, pro-Europe.

    It's only under Johnson and his acolytes that the party has become rabid English Nationalists.
    So, what is more likely?

    1. the Conservative Party abandoning English Nationalism and becoming pro-Europe again, or
    2. a government of a different political complexion taking power

    Because one of those two things has to happen to solve the informal transmanche regatta.

    Path 2 seems far more likely than path 1.
    Consider also that, at least since party leaders were chosen by members, the standard response to defeat is to double down on what the members want and moderation can go to hell.

    Suppose the Conservatives lose in 2024. Is the next LotO more likely to be a "Brexit with a human face" type (Hunt, say) or a "Boris's problem was he was just too soft on Europe, bless him" character (Patel or JRM, for example)?
    JRM did not seem to want the top job given he had a plausible path after May. Being green on Patel is recommended.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 42,181

    Mr. Away, it is rather bedwetting. Like when a Labour MP (I forget the name, alas, he formerly trained as a priest) wanted Delilah no longer sung at Welsh rugby matches.

    Edited extra bit: may've been Chris someone-or-other.

    Chris Bryant.

    Famous for posing in his underpants.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 8,569
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    OT American burger chain Wendy's is coming to Britain and based on this job advert will also be using dark kitchens (ie not part of a restaurant) for delivery services. What is odd is that the advert wants people to be bilingual, without saying which two languages it wants. Presumably one of them is English.
    https://careers.reeftechnology.com/jobs/box-chef-greater-london-england-united-kingdom

    Ils se préparent à l'invasion française.
    Anyone proposing that is Crécy.
    It’s a Lourdes of nonsense.
    That is bordeauxing on a good response.
    I was pulling his liège.
    I Marseille these puns are getting silly.

    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    OT American burger chain Wendy's is coming to Britain and based on this job advert will also be using dark kitchens (ie not part of a restaurant) for delivery services. What is odd is that the advert wants people to be bilingual, without saying which two languages it wants. Presumably one of them is English.
    https://careers.reeftechnology.com/jobs/box-chef-greater-london-england-united-kingdom

    Ils se préparent à l'invasion française.
    Anyone proposing that is Crécy.
    It’s a Lourdes of nonsense.
    That is bordeauxing on a good response.
    You only have your pride left Toulouse.
    Corsican only get worse.
    Caen't possibly.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 1,454
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The Times reports that senior military sources say they find the Home Office reluctant to give asylum to those in Afghanistan with a clearly founded fear of persecution, due to work with UK, "because of the message it will send to other refugees" if we uphold our obligations https://twitter.com/trillingual/status/1426631700231168007

    A horrible statement that should lead to sackings, if true.

    But I suspect - although the person who said it should still be sacked - that the real reason is they don’t want to admit they’re actually incapable of processing the paperwork.

    Here’s one example that shows just how chaotic they are:

    https://www.gloscricket.co.uk/news/statement-on-graeme-van-buuren/

    Four months on, he’s still waiting.

    Now if they cannot sort one piece of paper in a timely fashion for somebody who has lived in the UK for years, is married to a British subject, is employed by a British organisation in a well paid role, and applied well in advance of the deadline, what chance have they got of sorting the paperwork for thousands of penniless Afghan refugees?

    And of course they don’t care about promises or integrity or anything else.

    So they first renege on the promises and then lie.

    There’s a plausible scenario.

    And those Afghans who tried to help us are the ones who lose out.
    I quite agree. As I said on a previous thread, we need an honourable government here.
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,004
    The govt are planning a large grant of £7K for people to switch from gas boilers to heat pumps. I wonder how this will sit. Even with the grant it really is only the more well off who will be able to afford these pumps which, although efficient in energy generation, don’t really get the level of heat needed.

    The article from the Mail also features more about Hydrogen boilers which I mentioned a few times last week during the climate discussions here. What I didn’t realise was 80% of the gas network was already ready for Hydrogen when it happens.

    Polls consistently show people favour action on the environment but I just wonder if they favour action that doesn’t cost them or inconvenience them.

    https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article-9893211/Homeowners-offered-7-000-help-replace-gas-boilers-new-400m-scrappage-scheme.html
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,157
    edited August 15
    ydoethur said:

    ‘Long Covid may destroy the chances might make the GOP supporters of ObamaCare.’

    Is there a missing word there?

    Is riting gibberish a symptom of Long Covid?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,532

    isam said:

    The MP for Leeds NW’s response to footage of Leeds fans singing “Sancho & Rashford let the country down” at Old Trafford yesterday. A bit much to call for supporters to be banned for that I think, this is tame stuff

    ‘An absolute disgrace I hope @LUFC bans these people as they are no supporters of the club’

    https://twitter.com/alexsobel/status/1426542380610641922?s=21

    Deary me.. people are getting sensitive. You should have listened to what went on in the 70s and 80s. This really is tame by comparison... ir might not be nice but you will never stop it.
    Of course they should not be banned. Good to see Spurs fans applauding Saka though, that was classy.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 3,833
    Taz said:

    Quincel said:

    isam said:

    The MP for Leeds NW’s response to footage of Leeds fans singing “Sancho & Rashford let the country down” at Old Trafford yesterday. A bit much to call for supporters to be banned for that I think, this is tame stuff

    ‘An absolute disgrace I hope @LUFC bans these people as they are no supporters of the club’

    https://twitter.com/alexsobel/status/1426542380610641922?s=21

    Deary me.. people are getting sensitive. You should have listened to what went on in the 70s and 80s. This really is tame by comparison... ir might not be nice but you will never stop it.
    I find this an interesting argument given that, as you say, we have stopped what went on in the 70s and 80s. Leaving aside whether it is right, football clubs clearly are capable of policing their fans' behaviour to a reasonably significant extent.
    Yes, clubs do police their fans behaviour and, currently, it seems they do so in a reasonable way.

    But do you really think banning these people for this song is justified in any way, shape or form ?

    Over a harmless chant. If they were making monkey noises or racist chanting then they should be banned. The fans caught on film fighting in Manchester yesterday, largely posted on Twitter, should be banned. A ban for This song. No way.
    So is there a difference from what the Leeds fans did and singing ‘you’re sh*t and you know you are’? Seems an odd one. Perhaps we should be singing ‘you’re still very good but not quite as good as my team, please don’t take offence’...
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,209
    pigeon said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...

    They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.

    However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.

    It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.

    So, let us park the morality of the situation for a moment
    You can preface any Con commentary with that proviso.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,497

    eek said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...

    They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.

    However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.

    It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.

    In fairness, Commander(?) Ace, the situation cannot be fixed by THIS Tory government; up until 2015 one could reasonably say that Tory governments were, generally speaking, pro-Europe.

    It's only under Johnson and his acolytes that the party has become rabid English Nationalists.
    So, what is more likely?

    1. the Conservative Party abandoning English Nationalism and becoming pro-Europe again, or
    2. a government of a different political complexion taking power

    Because one of those two things has to happen to solve the informal transmanche regatta.

    Path 2 seems far more likely than path 1.
    Consider also that, at least since party leaders were chosen by members, the standard response to defeat is to double down on what the members want and moderation can go to hell.

    Suppose the Conservatives lose in 2024. Is the next LotO more likely to be a "Brexit with a human face" type (Hunt, say) or a "Boris's problem was he was just too soft on Europe, bless him" character (Patel or JRM, for example)?
    It will always be the more extreme of the two members presented to them by the filtering committee of Tory MPs
    In one year, Conservative Party membership increased by 50 per cent. That's ordinary Conservatives enthused by Boris, you understand, and not entryists as you'd suspect with Labour. 2018, 120,000 members; 2019, 180,000. So be slightly careful in guessing which way members will vote in any leadership election. Past performance may be no guide.
    Whereas i read on here that Labour was almost broke and could barely pay its head office staff. The Unions don't seem keen to cough up much at the moment.
    Talking of trade unions, I’ve just spotted this new market:

    Best prices - Unite General Secretary election

    Steve Turner 10/11
    Gerard Coyne 2/1
    Sharon Graham 11/4
    I can’t think of a more depressing betting market
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 5,196

    Mr. Away, it is rather bedwetting. Like when a Labour MP (I forget the name, alas, he formerly trained as a priest) wanted Delilah no longer sung at Welsh rugby matches.

    Edited extra bit: may've been Chris someone-or-other.

    Chris Bryant?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 39,648

    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...

    They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.

    However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.

    It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.

    In 2019 the number of people returned to other countries under the Dublin conventions was 209. For the entire year. Over 900 came the other way. To put the 209 in context we have to realise more people arrived here from France yesterday and the day before and etc.

    There is no chance of any kind of deal with the EU which is going to have a material impact on the number of asylum seekers coming here. We didn't have one when we were fully signed up members of the EU and we don't have one now. I suspect that most of them think we have a much less significant problem than those countries facing the Med or in the Balkans have.

    We now have a disaster in Afghanistan which is going to generate hundreds of thousands of more refugees, many of whom will have English as a second language and some of whom will already have relatives here. There are no solutions to this problem I'm afraid. The government talks tough because that's what their supporters want to hear but the reality is that unless we start opening fire on those in the Channel nothing is going to stop large scale immigration here.
    Unless things have changed radically since 2018 the UK does have a much less significant problem with asylum seekers than the EU in general. That the UK has a much bigger psychological problem with asylum seekers isn’t likely to generate much sympathy.

    https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1417739718452785152?s=21
    Yep, that's pretty much what I was saying. So pretending that some new super deal with the EU is going to solve the problem is just dishonest. It's not. This is a problem for all western governments in Europe and we have seen even more extreme reactions than anything here in Greece, Italy and of course France. It's not going to stop either. This is going to be the issue for European governments for the next 50 years until, hopefully, less of the world is such a hell hole.

    Of course that psychological problem was somewhat exacerbated in this country by the 10% of the population who came here from Europe with no checks whatsoever.
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,004
    Scott_xP said:

    Biden, last month: "The Taliban is not the North Vietnamese army. They’re not remotely comparable in terms of capability. There’s going to be no circumstance where you see people being lifted off the roof of the embassy of the United States from Afghanistan." https://twitter.com/LizSly/status/1426801235966021634

    You seriously have to question the level of intelligence he’s been provided with by his agencies because there is a great risk now they will be coming back in body bags. I dearly hope not but they must be panicking in the US at the situation.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,497
    Looks like Kabul has already been effectively lost
  • isamisam Posts: 38,082

    Quincel said:

    isam said:

    The MP for Leeds NW’s response to footage of Leeds fans singing “Sancho & Rashford let the country down” at Old Trafford yesterday. A bit much to call for supporters to be banned for that I think, this is tame stuff

    ‘An absolute disgrace I hope @LUFC bans these people as they are no supporters of the club’

    https://twitter.com/alexsobel/status/1426542380610641922?s=21

    Deary me.. people are getting sensitive. You should have listened to what went on in the 70s and 80s. This really is tame by comparison... ir might not be nice but you will never stop it.
    I find this an interesting argument given that, as you say, we have stopped what went on in the 70s and 80s. Leaving aside whether it is right, football clubs clearly are capable of policing their fans' behaviour to a reasonably significant extent.
    So let me get this right - a RIVAL set of fans are having a go at a RIVAL player becasue they missed a penalty for England and an MP wants them banned? FFS . Isnt that what fans do - have a go at rival players ?

    Have i missed the law being made that fans cannot say anything negative about opposition players? Has Rashford got his own blasphemy lay now? Its the Mp that wants sacking
    There was some pretty unsavoury behaviour at that match yesterday, but those chants weren’t anything to get her up about. Brentford fans booed Saka on Friday too.

    The fellow waving the Turkish flag, whilst stood next to a steward should probably be banned

    https://twitter.com/tashaaltv/status/1426547100167413762?s=21
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,557
    Ken Loach has been expelled from Labour. Good. I want to know how a man who attempted to produce a play that alleged Jewish leaders collaborated in the Holocaust in order to help form Israel, and subsequently blamed “prominent Jews” for its cancellation, was ever let back into Labour in the first place.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 26,805
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The Times reports that senior military sources say they find the Home Office reluctant to give asylum to those in Afghanistan with a clearly founded fear of persecution, due to work with UK, "because of the message it will send to other refugees" if we uphold our obligations https://twitter.com/trillingual/status/1426631700231168007

    A horrible statement that should lead to sackings, if true.

    But I suspect - although the person who said it should still be sacked - that the real reason is they don’t want to admit they’re actually incapable of processing the paperwork.

    Here’s one example that shows just how chaotic they are:

    https://www.gloscricket.co.uk/news/statement-on-graeme-van-buuren/

    Four months on, he’s still waiting.

    Now if they cannot sort one piece of paper in a timely fashion for somebody who has lived in the UK for years, is married to a British subject, is employed by a British organisation in a well paid role, and applied well in advance of the deadline, what chance have they got of sorting the paperwork for thousands of penniless Afghan refugees?

    And of course they don’t care about promises or integrity or anything else.

    So they first renege on the promises and then lie.

    There’s a plausible scenario.

    And those Afghans who tried to help us are the ones who lose out.
    The Home office did manage to process 6m rights to remain for EU citizens in under 18 months. It is not the capacity they lack, its the will.
    They *claim* to have processed the 6m.

    The reality is not quite so clear cut.
    The reality seems to be that the number of EU citizens living in the UK was several million more than we thought. Quelle surprise as our French neighbours would say.
    Not necessarily.

    The ONS blog discusses the discrepancy here and concludes there are about 3.5 million EU citizens living here:

    https://blog.ons.gov.uk/2021/07/02/are-there-really-6m-eu-citizens-living-in-the-uk/amp/

    I know a number of Greek, Spanish and Portuguese who applied and are now back in their home counties, who registered to keep options open, do locums etc, but have no intention of permanent settlement.

    Incidentally, getting these 3.5 million to become citizens and register to vote might have an interesting effect on constituency boundaries. I imagine most are urban. Savvy political parties might well want to appeal to them.
  • ydoethur said:

    ‘Long Covid may destroy the chances might make the GOP supporters of ObamaCare.’

    Is there a missing word there?

    Fixed it now.

    Long Covid may make the GOP supporters of ObamaCare.
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,004

    Taz said:

    Quincel said:

    isam said:

    The MP for Leeds NW’s response to footage of Leeds fans singing “Sancho & Rashford let the country down” at Old Trafford yesterday. A bit much to call for supporters to be banned for that I think, this is tame stuff

    ‘An absolute disgrace I hope @LUFC bans these people as they are no supporters of the club’

    https://twitter.com/alexsobel/status/1426542380610641922?s=21

    Deary me.. people are getting sensitive. You should have listened to what went on in the 70s and 80s. This really is tame by comparison... ir might not be nice but you will never stop it.
    I find this an interesting argument given that, as you say, we have stopped what went on in the 70s and 80s. Leaving aside whether it is right, football clubs clearly are capable of policing their fans' behaviour to a reasonably significant extent.
    Yes, clubs do police their fans behaviour and, currently, it seems they do so in a reasonable way.

    But do you really think banning these people for this song is justified in any way, shape or form ?

    Over a harmless chant. If they were making monkey noises or racist chanting then they should be banned. The fans caught on film fighting in Manchester yesterday, largely posted on Twitter, should be banned. A ban for This song. No way.
    So is there a difference from what the Leeds fans did and singing ‘you’re sh*t and you know you are’? Seems an odd one. Perhaps we should be singing ‘you’re still very good but not quite as good as my team, please don’t take offence’...
    Perhaps the FA can approve all Chants before fans are allowed to sing them ?

    The referees a wanker being replaced with the referee practises acts of self love. As an example.
This discussion has been closed.