"Defence Committee chairman Tobias Ellwood said it was a humiliation for the West."
Really? What a perceptive chap. But yeah, we're talking about p*ssing squillions of quid up the wall fighting a war that it was impossible to win, on a foreign country's say-so, and then at the moment of final defeat not even being able to withdraw in orderly fashion. The responsibility for that last failure must surely lie with Boris Johnson who has been PM for two years, easily long enough to withdraw calmly and without panic. But given that he couldn't be bothered, quite possibly by this time tomorrow there will be a POW issue: "release prisoners you're holding in Guantanamo and Diego Garcia and we'll release the prisoners we took in Kabul who couldn't grab on to the helicopter skids in time." (Clue: do the f***ing deal. Much better to do the deal than have videos circulate of British embassy staff getting their heads cut off because you didn't.)
"Despite the decision of the Biden administration to withdraw the remaining US troops which triggered the collapse, Mr Ellwood said it was still not too late to turn the situation around.
He called for the despatch of the Royal Navy carrier strike group to the region and urged the Prime Minister to convene an emergency conference of "like-minded nations" to see what could be done."
What a maniac. Carpet-bombing on the way out of the door, huh? Remind me how that worked in Vietnam and Kampuchea. The only military issue now for Britain is the evacuation.
He's a Conservative MP. He may well be thinking of a blockade of Afghan sea-ports rather than a bombing campaign.
The MP for Leeds NW’s response to footage of Leeds fans singing “Sancho & Rashford let the country down” at Old Trafford yesterday. A bit much to call for supporters to be banned for that I think, this is tame stuff
‘An absolute disgrace I hope @LUFC bans these people as they are no supporters of the club’
Deary me.. people are getting sensitive. You should have listened to what went on in the 70s and 80s. This really is tame by comparison... ir might not be nice but you will never stop it.
I find this an interesting argument given that, as you say, we have stopped what went on in the 70s and 80s. Leaving aside whether it is right, football clubs clearly are capable of policing their fans' behaviour to a reasonably significant extent.
Yes, clubs do police their fans behaviour and, currently, it seems they do so in a reasonable way.
But do you really think banning these people for this song is justified in any way, shape or form ?
Over a harmless chant. If they were making monkey noises or racist chanting then they should be banned. The fans caught on film fighting in Manchester yesterday, largely posted on Twitter, should be banned. A ban for This song. No way.
So is there a difference from what the Leeds fans did and singing ‘you’re sh*t and you know you are’? Seems an odd one. Perhaps we should be singing ‘you’re still very good but not quite as good as my team, please don’t take offence’...
Perhaps the FA can approve all Chants before fans are allowed to sing them ?
The referees a wanker being replaced with the referee practises acts of self love. As an example.
"Who is that onanist wearing dark clothing?"
Football chants as crossword clues. Has some mileage.
I see @NikitaBassi123, who works directly for Nicola Sturgeon, has quickly deleted her tweet suggesting Scotland is colonised and subject to ‘British rule’ just like India was.
These views are abhorrent and I hope the ignorance on display in that tweet is reflected on.
Scots came into India as writers, traders, engineers, missionaries, tea and indigo planters, jute traders and teachers. By 1771 almost half of the East India Company's writers were Scots.
The Scottish presence was also strongly evident in India. The first three Governor-Generals of India were Scots. When Henry Dundas became President of the Board of Control in 1784 he ‘Scoticised’ India and through his agencies Scots came to dominate the activities of the East India Company (EIC). By 1792, Scots made up one in nine EIC civil servants, six in eleven common soldiers and one in three officers.
With regard to the tories on the previous thread getting drippy dicks about the informal transmanche regatta which has so adorned out summer...
They are correct in their analysis: this government lacks the fortitude to do any on water operation that would make any difference.
However, what they are missing is that this cannot be fixed by a tory government. This is a Europe wide problem that needs a European solution. However the tories have spent the last five years gleefully shitting on European cooperation in general and the French and particular. They withdrew from the Dublin Convention which would have allowed the legal return of some of the arrivals to other European countries.
It's going to take a government of a different political complexion that can upgrade the UK's relationship with the EU to fix it.
In fairness, Commander(?) Ace, the situation cannot be fixed by THIS Tory government; up until 2015 one could reasonably say that Tory governments were, generally speaking, pro-Europe.
It's only under Johnson and his acolytes that the party has become rabid English Nationalists.
So, what is more likely?
1. the Conservative Party abandoning English Nationalism and becoming pro-Europe again, or 2. a government of a different political complexion taking power
Because one of those two things has to happen to solve the informal transmanche regatta.
Path 2 seems far more likely than path 1.
Consider also that, at least since party leaders were chosen by members, the standard response to defeat is to double down on what the members want and moderation can go to hell.
Suppose the Conservatives lose in 2024. Is the next LotO more likely to be a "Brexit with a human face" type (Hunt, say) or a "Boris's problem was he was just too soft on Europe, bless him" character (Patel or JRM, for example)?
It will always be the more extreme of the two members presented to them by the filtering committee of Tory MPs
In one year, Conservative Party membership increased by 50 per cent. That's ordinary Conservatives enthused by Boris, you understand, and not entryists as you'd suspect with Labour. 2018, 120,000 members; 2019, 180,000. So be slightly careful in guessing which way members will vote in any leadership election. Past performance may be no guide.
Whereas i read on here that Labour was almost broke and could barely pay its head office staff. The Unions don't seem keen to cough up much at the moment.
Talking of trade unions, I’ve just spotted this new market:
Best prices - Unite General Secretary election
Steve Turner 10/11 Gerard Coyne 2/1 Sharon Graham 11/4
I can’t think of a more depressing betting market
How about the Boris Johnson exit date market?
2024 or later 4/6
At least the Scots have an exit route.
They don't, as long as Boris remains PM he has made clear he will refuse indyref2
The Scots will decide the future constitutional status of our country, not Boris Johnson.
And they will vote to remain in the union
Maybe. Maybe not. There is only one way to find out.
they are too scared for that
It really is the only logical conclusion to draw.
Another No win, even by 50.1% to 49.9%, would put the issue to bed for half a century. We’d be in a Quebec scenario.
If the Unionists thought they could get that 50.1% they’d take it in a flash. Cummings and Gove think they could, and they might be right, but very few other Unionists do. The big giveaway is that the Unionists with a true, deep understanding of the lie of the land in the villages and towns of Scotland - the Lib Dem and Labour activists - are also strongly against holding a fresh independence referendum. They can see clearly how it would go.
No it wouldn't, you Nationalists would be arguing for indyref3 the next day.
Once in a generation means precisely that
Given that you didn't answer the actual point, which is that Boris knows he will lose a referendum I assume you agree thag Scotland woulc currently vote for independence so you don't want to ffer them the chance.
Not necessarily, the latest poll is 52% No but once in a generation is once in a generation
That's a really original and interesting hypothesis. Do you think you could repeat it, like, maybe 246 times in 77 threads? I can then design a new Antikythera Mechanism to replace you on this site.
Perhaps you guys could also shut the fuck up about Scottish indy as well, then? Just for a few months?
We know where you stand, we know where HYUFD stands, we know where Stuart "blood and soil" Dickson stands, maybe if you ALL just put a lid on it til, say, Christmas, the site would benefit
There ain't gonna be a referendum any time soon, there are no new arguments to be had from Nats or Yoons, you are dancing around the same fucking handbag day after day. Desist. Ta
What do you suggest we discuss? Brexit maybe?
Just think of it as a post covid normalisation. We are back to our old feuds.
The afternoon thread is about Scotland.
You can all thank me now or on that when it is published.
I also have at least 4 Scotland threads in the pipeline for when Mike is on holiday.
Poor Leon, broiling in the east Med sun, biting his fingers and dying to have his tuppence worth.
I'm about to go the Parthenon. I have a feeling it will be slightly more elevating, and entertaining, than PB's 39827th debate on Sindy
"Defence Committee chairman Tobias Ellwood said it was a humiliation for the West."
Really? What a perceptive chap. But yeah, we're talking about p*ssing squillions of quid up the wall fighting a war that it was impossible to win, on a foreign country's say-so, and then at the moment of final defeat not even being able to withdraw in orderly fashion. The responsibility for that last failure must surely lie with Boris Johnson who has been PM for two years, easily long enough to withdraw calmly and without panic. But given that he couldn't be bothered, quite possibly by this time tomorrow there will be a POW issue: "release prisoners you're holding in Guantanamo and Diego Garcia and we'll release the prisoners we took in Kabul who couldn't grab on to the helicopter skids in time." (Clue: do the f***ing deal. Much better to do the deal than have videos circulate of British embassy staff getting their heads cut off because you didn't.)
"Despite the decision of the Biden administration to withdraw the remaining US troops which triggered the collapse, Mr Ellwood said it was still not too late to turn the situation around.
He called for the despatch of the Royal Navy carrier strike group to the region and urged the Prime Minister to convene an emergency conference of "like-minded nations" to see what could be done."
What a maniac. Carpet-bombing on the way out of the door, huh? Remind me how that worked in Vietnam and Kampuchea. The only military issue now for Britain is the evacuation.
He’s crackers. It’s done. It’s too late. Once the US pulled out the rest had to follow,suit.
So is the Afghanistan intervention now deemed to be a bigger failure than the Iraq intervention ?
Perhaps a better idea would have been to partition Afghanistan between Pakistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and anyone else who wanted a part.
So is the Afghanistan intervention now deemed to be a bigger failure than the Iraq intervention ?
Perhaps a better idea would have been to partition Afghanistan between Pakistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and anyone else who wanted a part.
Auction off the provinces, like they auction players off in the IPL.
Rory Stewart hit the nail squarely on the head this morning.
The withdrawal of air support was the nail in the coffin for the Afghan National Army and Government. It would have been much harder for the Taliban to advance if they faced the kind of air assault the US, UK and others can muster.
Yet the Afghan Air Force has supposedly 180 aircraft which is I suspect is 180 more than the Taliban though the latter have (I presume) anti-aircraft missiles at their disposal.
The fact remains a well-equipped modern army has disintegrated in just five weeks and whatever vitriol you want to hurl at Biden, the questions remains why no one has tried to fight for Ghani and the anti-Taliban forces.
Indeed. Why should Americans or Brits risk their lives against Stinger missiles if Afghans are not minded to?
To defend ourselves from a jihadi nation exporting terror. As happened before
I predict that within 5 years we will be bombing Afghanistan again. Not invading, but bombing, yes
I can't help feeling that when Rumsfeld gave Pakistan the option of cooperating or being bombed back to the stone age he made a strategic error. There is absolutely no way that the Taleban could have sustained this effort without huge logistical support from the Pakistan Intelligence Agency. The protection of Bin Laden was just a simple example of where their loyalties and efforts were. By allowing them such a safe haven on their border we made the war unwinnable.
"Q Is a Taliban takeover of Afghanistan now inevitable? THE PRESIDENT: No, it is not. Q Why? THE PRESIDENT: Because you — the Afghan troops have 300,000 well-equipped — as well-equipped as any army in the world — and an air force against something like 75,000 Taliban. It is not inevitable."
This press conference could well come back to bite Biden. He was clearly misinformed about just how illusory the Afghan government was. If he had known the true state of Taleban control, his rush to quit Afghanistan would no doubt have been strengthened.
America have lost their key allies in the same way on several occasions before: China (1949), South Vietnam (1975), Iran (1979). In each case an incoherent set of kleptocrats was no match for a motivated nationalistic opposition. Afghanistan is probably the least significant loss of these from a geopolitical point of view.
Those that talk of the end of the West and indeed an empire may be correct if Afghanistan proves to be the last of these interventions from the US
The MP for Leeds NW’s response to footage of Leeds fans singing “Sancho & Rashford let the country down” at Old Trafford yesterday. A bit much to call for supporters to be banned for that I think, this is tame stuff
‘An absolute disgrace I hope @LUFC bans these people as they are no supporters of the club’
Deary me.. people are getting sensitive. You should have listened to what went on in the 70s and 80s. This really is tame by comparison... ir might not be nice but you will never stop it.
I find this an interesting argument given that, as you say, we have stopped what went on in the 70s and 80s. Leaving aside whether it is right, football clubs clearly are capable of policing their fans' behaviour to a reasonably significant extent.
Yes, clubs do police their fans behaviour and, currently, it seems they do so in a reasonable way.
But do you really think banning these people for this song is justified in any way, shape or form ?
Over a harmless chant. If they were making monkey noises or racist chanting then they should be banned. The fans caught on film fighting in Manchester yesterday, largely posted on Twitter, should be banned. A ban for This song. No way.
So is there a difference from what the Leeds fans did and singing ‘you’re sh*t and you know you are’? Seems an odd one. Perhaps we should be singing ‘you’re still very good but not quite as good as my team, please don’t take offence’...
Perhaps the FA can approve all Chants before fans are allowed to sing them ?
The referees a wanker being replaced with the referee practises acts of self love. As an example.
"Who is that onanist wearing dark clothing?"
Leicester fans were happy singing at the Wolves fans "you're going down with the Villa!" yesterday. It's good to be back.
Though my favourite chant was when Leicester were awarded a second dodgy penalty (in pre VAR* days), I think against Wimbledon. We sang at the referee "you DO know what you're doing" at their best fans can be quite witty.
*incidentally the officials have learnt a lot from the Euros. VAR was not an issue in the matches so far this weekend. Officials are letting things flow, and VAR in use, but you would hardly know.
Serious suggestion - even numbered days of the month no discussions of SIndy or Brexit. Every other day fill your boots with whatever you want. It is becoming a serious problem on what is often an entertaining board. The same points have been rehearsed so many times that it is easy to predict what the usual suspects will say ahead of time.
Labour, a party that has recently been pushing the message that we must look to the future, is still preoccupied with strikes that took place in the 1980s. Indeed Keir Starmer, perhaps it is you who is out of touch.....
This highlights an increasingly visible problem for the Labour Party: they’ve lost touch with the north. And in trying to shake off their cosmopolitan shackles, they’ve sold themselves a false narrative that traditional voters are still perturbed by historical issues. Going back to your roots does not mean literally entering a time machine. It is sad to see that Margaret Thatcher still haunts Labour from beyond the grave and their obsession with the North’s supposed universal disliking for her is often misguided.
I'm about to go the Parthenon. I have a feeling it will be slightly more elevating, and entertaining, than PB's 39827th debate on Sindy
But you guys knock yerselves out. Again
Dunno, yesterday I was getting told I should be making a case for Scottish indy rather than pointing and laughing at the gimpery on display. Ye just cannae win sometimes..
More seriously, this is horrific but oh-so-predictable.
This is why the Taliban promises of a peaceful takeover are utter bullshit. They have fought a brutal guerrilla campaign for 20 years - and won. They have killed 70,000 Afghans in that campaign, and seen their own side slaughtered. They have at least 10,000 bloodthirsty foreign jihadis in their ranks - veterans of ISIS and AQ and the rest
There will now be the most terrible butchering of the enemy, and the evil will only grow and expand from there
Gotta love the first six words in this Tweet “Say what you like about the Taliban, at least the trains ran on time”
Roshan M Salih @RmSalih Whatever you think of the Taliban their seemingly imminent victory is a historic defeat of colonialism and imperialism. This should be the main narrative of media around the world, rather than the red herrings about women's rights etc that we are being sold.
Jesus Christ that guy's Twitter feed. And he's a British Muslim. Odious
"I wasn’t in Kandahar last week. The ANDSF surrendered, then the Taliban went on the rampage, door to door, executing people associated with the Govt."
Parliament to be recalled...to do what exactly? Invade?
Have a bit of a moan, say they are worried and do absolutely nothing.
Don't be ridiculous. There is lots to do, huge amounts of blame and responsibility to be avoided, narratives to set etc. They certainly would not want to look completely ineffectual and pointless, would they?
I'll bet you the non-mortgaged portion of my house that the phrase 'lessons will/should be learned' will rear its ugly head.
Possible lessons:
(1) Attempting to impose western values on countries that have a culture that is deeply inimical to them is doomed to failure. (2) The money and resources spent on being embedded and building up domestic forces who have no interest in fighting for said values is completely wasted and the activity is delusional. (3) Pakistan is not our friend. Not even close to being a friend. (4) Modern softy democracies are not capable of sustaining a war effort that produces material numbers of body bags over an extended period (which may or may not be a good thing).
No 1 there is most pertinent, I think. It doesn't seem to dawn on a lot of people that other cultures don't necessarily want to be just like us. It is also one of the biggest oversights of multiculturalism in Western countries, and the people who first promoted multiculturalism in the UK (Roy Jenkins, Lord Lester) admitted as much
Labour, a party that has recently been pushing the message that we must look to the future, is still preoccupied with strikes that took place in the 1980s. Indeed Keir Starmer, perhaps it is you who is out of touch.....
This highlights an increasingly visible problem for the Labour Party: they’ve lost touch with the north. And in trying to shake off their cosmopolitan shackles, they’ve sold themselves a false narrative that traditional voters are still perturbed by historical issues. Going back to your roots does not mean literally entering a time machine. It is sad to see that Margaret Thatcher still haunts Labour from beyond the grave and their obsession with the North’s supposed universal disliking for her is often misguided.
Quite right too. Remember that "migrants have to settle in the first country they come to". So none of them should some here. In fact, now is the time to do a deal with the Taliban to host our unwanted forrin offshore. Lets have Priti Patel open it, smirking next to some bearded Taliban warlord as women who look just like her get looked after respectfully by the pro-women jihadis.
Thats how you stop scroungers coming from safe places like Afghanistan to take our jobs and claim benefits. So sayeth Tory voters apparently.
He called for the despatch of the Royal Navy carrier strike group to the region and urged the Prime Minister to convene an emergency conference of "like-minded nations" to see what could be done."
LOL. It's in fucking Guam. The Afghans should have realised we've pivoted to the Pacific.
"I wasn’t in Kandahar last week. The ANDSF surrendered, then the Taliban went on the rampage, door to door, executing people associated with the Govt."
We do seem to have formed an Afghan army out of the wrong people.
Isn't the normal failing to recruit poor peasants who sympathise with the enemy and hate the corrupt elites.
While the westernised middle classes believe that military service is beneath them.
The poor peasants in the army then join the enemy in shooting the westernised middle classes while the corrupt elites flee the country with their stolen riches.
Labour, a party that has recently been pushing the message that we must look to the future, is still preoccupied with strikes that took place in the 1980s. Indeed Keir Starmer, perhaps it is you who is out of touch.....
This highlights an increasingly visible problem for the Labour Party: they’ve lost touch with the north. And in trying to shake off their cosmopolitan shackles, they’ve sold themselves a false narrative that traditional voters are still perturbed by historical issues. Going back to your roots does not mean literally entering a time machine. It is sad to see that Margaret Thatcher still haunts Labour from beyond the grave and their obsession with the North’s supposed universal disliking for her is often misguided.
I've not heard anyone mention the miners strike in real life for well over a decade.
Same here, living in one of the areas affected by it, there are reminders there of course. But it as two generations ago. I think the above analysis is correct. The miners strike seems to be more of a preoccupation with those not in the affected areas. Look at the indignation that these communities dared vote Tory from people who would only know these areas from looking at a map.
"Defence Committee chairman Tobias Ellwood said it was a humiliation for the West."
Really? What a perceptive chap. But yeah, we're talking about p*ssing squillions of quid up the wall fighting a war that it was impossible to win, on a foreign country's say-so, and then at the moment of final defeat not even being able to withdraw in orderly fashion. The responsibility for that last failure must surely lie with Boris Johnson who has been PM for two years, easily long enough to withdraw calmly and without panic. But given that he couldn't be bothered, quite possibly by this time tomorrow there will be a POW issue: "release prisoners you're holding in Guantanamo and Diego Garcia and we'll release the prisoners we took in Kabul who couldn't grab on to the helicopter skids in time." (Clue: do the f***ing deal. Much better to do the deal than have videos circulate of British embassy staff getting their heads cut off because you didn't.)
"Despite the decision of the Biden administration to withdraw the remaining US troops which triggered the collapse, Mr Ellwood said it was still not too late to turn the situation around.
He called for the despatch of the Royal Navy carrier strike group to the region and urged the Prime Minister to convene an emergency conference of "like-minded nations" to see what could be done."
What a maniac. Carpet-bombing on the way out of the door, huh? Remind me how that worked in Vietnam and Kampuchea. The only military issue now for Britain is the evacuation.
Tobias is absolutely right.
Biden is by far the weakest President of my entire lifetime in foreign policy terms, he has handed Afghanistan back on a plate to jihadis and terrorists and the Taliban.
If and when we get 9/11 2 it will be Biden and Harris to blame.
They have weakened the West in the face of Russia and China and emboldened militant Islam.
Biden even makes the Carter administration look strong
Parliament to be recalled...to do what exactly? Invade?
Have a bit of a moan, say they are worried and do absolutely nothing.
Don't be ridiculous. There is lots to do, huge amounts of blame and responsibility to be avoided, narratives to set etc. They certainly would not want to look completely ineffectual and pointless, would they?
I'll bet you the non-mortgaged portion of my house that the phrase 'lessons will/should be learned' will rear its ugly head.
Possible lessons:
(1) Attempting to impose western values on countries that have a culture that is deeply inimical to them is doomed to failure. (2) The money and resources spent on being embedded and building up domestic forces who have no interest in fighting for said values is completely wasted and the activity is delusional. (3) Pakistan is not our friend. Not even close to being a friend. (4) Modern softy democracies are not capable of sustaining a war effort that produces material numbers of body bags over an extended period (which may or may not be a good thing).
No 1 there is most pertinent, I think. It doesn't seem to dawn on a lot of people that other cultures don't necessarily want to be just like us. It is also one of the biggest oversights of multiculturalism in Western countries, and the people who first promoted multiculturalism in the UK (Roy Jenkins, Lord Lester) admitted as much
Some cultures integrate more quickly than others. For example after only a month the Indian tourists have learned the importance of top order batting collapses.
The MP for Leeds NW’s response to footage of Leeds fans singing “Sancho & Rashford let the country down” at Old Trafford yesterday. A bit much to call for supporters to be banned for that I think, this is tame stuff
‘An absolute disgrace I hope @LUFC bans these people as they are no supporters of the club’
Deary me.. people are getting sensitive. You should have listened to what went on in the 70s and 80s. This really is tame by comparison... ir might not be nice but you will never stop it.
I find this an interesting argument given that, as you say, we have stopped what went on in the 70s and 80s. Leaving aside whether it is right, football clubs clearly are capable of policing their fans' behaviour to a reasonably significant extent.
Yes, clubs do police their fans behaviour and, currently, it seems they do so in a reasonable way.
But do you really think banning these people for this song is justified in any way, shape or form ?
Over a harmless chant. If they were making monkey noises or racist chanting then they should be banned. The fans caught on film fighting in Manchester yesterday, largely posted on Twitter, should be banned. A ban for This song. No way.
So is there a difference from what the Leeds fans did and singing ‘you’re sh*t and you know you are’? Seems an odd one. Perhaps we should be singing ‘you’re still very good but not quite as good as my team, please don’t take offence’...
Perhaps the FA can approve all Chants before fans are allowed to sing them ?
The referees a wanker being replaced with the referee practises acts of self love. As an example.
"Who is that onanist wearing dark clothing?"
Leicester fans were happy singing at the Wolves fans "you're going down with the Villa!" yesterday. It's good to be back.
Though my favourite chant was when Leicester were awarded a second dodgy penalty (in pre VAR* days), I think against Wimbledon. We sang at the referee "you DO know what you're doing" at their best fans can be quite witty.
*incidentally the officials have learnt a lot from the Euros. VAR was not an issue in the matches so far this weekend. Officials are letting things flow, and VAR in use, but you would hardly know.
Man U got away with what looked a pre VAR pen to me, Maguire on Roberts... although they were 5-1 up at the time
"I wasn’t in Kandahar last week. The ANDSF surrendered, then the Taliban went on the rampage, door to door, executing people associated with the Govt."
We do seem to have formed an Afghan army out of the wrong people.
Isn't the normal failing to recruit poor peasants who sympathise with the enemy and hate the corrupt elites.
While the westernised middle classes believe that military service is beneath them.
The poor peasants in the army then join the enemy in shooting the westernised middle classes while the corrupt elites flee the country with their stolen riches.
I suspect it was merely a paper army, even if most of them had uniforms and guns.
They were happy to go along with it as long as they were protected by Western firepower, and well-paid, but they weren't actually that interested in fighting.
The MP for Leeds NW’s response to footage of Leeds fans singing “Sancho & Rashford let the country down” at Old Trafford yesterday. A bit much to call for supporters to be banned for that I think, this is tame stuff
‘An absolute disgrace I hope @LUFC bans these people as they are no supporters of the club’
Deary me.. people are getting sensitive. You should have listened to what went on in the 70s and 80s. This really is tame by comparison... ir might not be nice but you will never stop it.
I find this an interesting argument given that, as you say, we have stopped what went on in the 70s and 80s. Leaving aside whether it is right, football clubs clearly are capable of policing their fans' behaviour to a reasonably significant extent.
Yes, clubs do police their fans behaviour and, currently, it seems they do so in a reasonable way.
But do you really think banning these people for this song is justified in any way, shape or form ?
Over a harmless chant. If they were making monkey noises or racist chanting then they should be banned. The fans caught on film fighting in Manchester yesterday, largely posted on Twitter, should be banned. A ban for This song. No way.
So is there a difference from what the Leeds fans did and singing ‘you’re sh*t and you know you are’? Seems an odd one. Perhaps we should be singing ‘you’re still very good but not quite as good as my team, please don’t take offence’...
Perhaps the FA can approve all Chants before fans are allowed to sing them ?
The referees a wanker being replaced with the referee practises acts of self love. As an example.
"Who is that onanist wearing dark clothing?"
Leicester fans were happy singing at the Wolves fans "you're going down with the Villa!" yesterday. It's good to be back.
Though my favourite chant was when Leicester were awarded a second dodgy penalty (in pre VAR* days), I think against Wimbledon. We sang at the referee "you DO know what you're doing" at their best fans can be quite witty.
*incidentally the officials have learnt a lot from the Euros. VAR was not an issue in the matches so far this weekend. Officials are letting things flow, and VAR in use, but you would hardly know.
Man U got away with what looked a pre VAR pen to me, Maguire on Roberts... although they were 5-1 up at the time
I also thought Fernandes was offside for the fourth goal. As ever, the correction always goes too far.
The MP for Leeds NW’s response to footage of Leeds fans singing “Sancho & Rashford let the country down” at Old Trafford yesterday. A bit much to call for supporters to be banned for that I think, this is tame stuff
‘An absolute disgrace I hope @LUFC bans these people as they are no supporters of the club’
Deary me.. people are getting sensitive. You should have listened to what went on in the 70s and 80s. This really is tame by comparison... ir might not be nice but you will never stop it.
I find this an interesting argument given that, as you say, we have stopped what went on in the 70s and 80s. Leaving aside whether it is right, football clubs clearly are capable of policing their fans' behaviour to a reasonably significant extent.
Yes, clubs do police their fans behaviour and, currently, it seems they do so in a reasonable way.
But do you really think banning these people for this song is justified in any way, shape or form ?
Over a harmless chant. If they were making monkey noises or racist chanting then they should be banned. The fans caught on film fighting in Manchester yesterday, largely posted on Twitter, should be banned. A ban for This song. No way.
So is there a difference from what the Leeds fans did and singing ‘you’re sh*t and you know you are’? Seems an odd one. Perhaps we should be singing ‘you’re still very good but not quite as good as my team, please don’t take offence’...
Perhaps the FA can approve all Chants before fans are allowed to sing them ?
The referees a wanker being replaced with the referee practises acts of self love. As an example.
"Who is that onanist wearing dark clothing?"
Leicester fans were happy singing at the Wolves fans "you're going down with the Villa!" yesterday. It's good to be back.
Though my favourite chant was when Leicester were awarded a second dodgy penalty (in pre VAR* days), I think against Wimbledon. We sang at the referee "you DO know what you're doing" at their best fans can be quite witty.
*incidentally the officials have learnt a lot from the Euros. VAR was not an issue in the matches so far this weekend. Officials are letting things flow, and VAR in use, but you would hardly know.
Man U got away with what looked a pre VAR pen to me, Maguire on Roberts... although they were 5-1 up at the time
I'm a United fan and that was blatant. If VAR is not correcting errors like that I am not sure what the point is. I think that the 4th goal probably should have stood because (a) it was seriously close when the ball was hit and (b) the finish was awesome.
He called for the despatch of the Royal Navy carrier strike group to the region and urged the Prime Minister to convene an emergency conference of "like-minded nations" to see what could be done."
LOL. It's in fucking Guam. The Afghans should have realised we've pivoted to the Pacific.
In any case isn't Kabul about 1000km from open sea? There are empty gestures, then there would be this.
So is the Afghanistan intervention now deemed to be a bigger failure than the Iraq intervention ?
Perhaps a better idea would have been to partition Afghanistan between Pakistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and anyone else who wanted a part.
The two are inextricably linked, I think. If the resources committed to Iraq had instead been committed to the Afghan adventure, rather than doing it on the cheap and outsourcing the work on the ground to local warlords, then the attempts at nation building we've seen in recent years might have started a decade earlier.
It might still have ended in failure, but the odds would have been far better.
So is the Afghanistan intervention now deemed to be a bigger failure than the Iraq intervention ?
Perhaps a better idea would have been to partition Afghanistan between Pakistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and anyone else who wanted a part.
The two are inextricably linked, I think. If the resources committed to Iraq had instead been committed to the Afghan adventure, rather than doing it on the cheap and outsourcing the work on the ground to local warlords, then the attempts at nation building we've seen in recent years might have started a decade earlier.
It might still have ended in failure, but the odds would have been far better.
Just so.
Gordon Guthrie @gordonguthrie 3h Not exactly looking to former New Labour luminaries who had a hand in the disastrous pivot from Afghanistan to Iraq for guidance on here today kthxbai
"#BREAKING: That's Kampani neighborhood of #Kabul! #Taliban jihadists as well as the recently freed members of #AlQaeda are celebrating the takeover of #Afghanistan by Taliban."
“I am not afraid to die. But I am afraid that my family will be killed. My mother, brothers and sisters and niece and nephew can’t stay in Kabul any longer”
Just got done with another phone call from Kabul. Desperate call in tears.
The MP for Leeds NW’s response to footage of Leeds fans singing “Sancho & Rashford let the country down” at Old Trafford yesterday. A bit much to call for supporters to be banned for that I think, this is tame stuff
‘An absolute disgrace I hope @LUFC bans these people as they are no supporters of the club’
Deary me.. people are getting sensitive. You should have listened to what went on in the 70s and 80s. This really is tame by comparison... ir might not be nice but you will never stop it.
I find this an interesting argument given that, as you say, we have stopped what went on in the 70s and 80s. Leaving aside whether it is right, football clubs clearly are capable of policing their fans' behaviour to a reasonably significant extent.
Yes, clubs do police their fans behaviour and, currently, it seems they do so in a reasonable way.
But do you really think banning these people for this song is justified in any way, shape or form ?
Over a harmless chant. If they were making monkey noises or racist chanting then they should be banned. The fans caught on film fighting in Manchester yesterday, largely posted on Twitter, should be banned. A ban for This song. No way.
So is there a difference from what the Leeds fans did and singing ‘you’re sh*t and you know you are’? Seems an odd one. Perhaps we should be singing ‘you’re still very good but not quite as good as my team, please don’t take offence’...
Perhaps the FA can approve all Chants before fans are allowed to sing them ?
The referees a wanker being replaced with the referee practises acts of self love. As an example.
"Who is that onanist wearing dark clothing?"
Leicester fans were happy singing at the Wolves fans "you're going down with the Villa!" yesterday. It's good to be back.
Though my favourite chant was when Leicester were awarded a second dodgy penalty (in pre VAR* days), I think against Wimbledon. We sang at the referee "you DO know what you're doing" at their best fans can be quite witty.
*incidentally the officials have learnt a lot from the Euros. VAR was not an issue in the matches so far this weekend. Officials are letting things flow, and VAR in use, but you would hardly know.
Man U got away with what looked a pre VAR pen to me, Maguire on Roberts... although they were 5-1 up at the time
I'm a United fan and that was blatant. If VAR is not correcting errors like that I am not sure what the point is. I think that the 4th goal probably should have stood because (a) it was seriously close when the ball was hit and (b) the finish was awesome.
Do we know if they are taking into account the on-field decision? Would it have stood if the flag had gone up on the field? That's how it ought to work, in my opinion.
Quite right too. Remember that "migrants have to settle in the first country they come to". So none of them should some here. In fact, now is the time to do a deal with the Taliban to host our unwanted forrin offshore. Lets have Priti Patel open it, smirking next to some bearded Taliban warlord as women who look just like her get looked after respectfully by the pro-women jihadis.
Thats how you stop scroungers coming from safe places like Afghanistan to take our jobs and claim benefits. So sayeth Tory voters apparently.
The UK Government has invited anybody with a BNO passport in Hong Kong to bring themselves and their dependents over here to settle, if they want to and are able to do so. There are planeloads currently leaving for Heathrow every day. So the drawbridge clearly hasn't been pulled up.
I strongly suspect that, at the end of all this, it will transpire that the Government hasn't done nearly enough to rescue those who have helped it directly in Afghanistan in the past, and that's reprehensible. There's a big difference, however, between insisting upon this and advocating an open door. Firstly there are vastly more distressed people in Afghanistan alone, let alone throughout the globe, who would like to come here than can be reasonably accommodated; secondly, the existing population of this island won't stand for it and, unless you're advocating the abolition of popular government, some attention needs to be paid to their wishes as well.
If we're going to draw unfavourable comparisons between Canada and Britain then we might also pause to consider the fact that Canada has the luxury of choice. Irregular migrants from Asia and Africa who transit Europe soon find themselves a dinghy ride across the Channel from Kent if they want to come here. Canada is separated by oceans from the Old World, and irregular migrants travelling up through Central America (if they are able to get across the US border in the first place) generally settle there, rather than venturing to more northerly climes.
"Q Is a Taliban takeover of Afghanistan now inevitable? THE PRESIDENT: No, it is not. Q Why? THE PRESIDENT: Because you — the Afghan troops have 300,000 well-equipped — as well-equipped as any army in the world — and an air force against something like 75,000 Taliban. It is not inevitable."
This press conference could well come back to bite Biden. He was clearly misinformed about just how illusory the Afghan government was. If he had known the true state of Taleban control, his rush to quit Afghanistan would no doubt have been strengthened.
America have lost their key allies in the same way on several occasions before: China (1949), South Vietnam (1975), Iran (1979). In each case an incoherent set of kleptocrats was no match for a motivated nationalistic opposition. Afghanistan is probably the least significant loss of these from a geopolitical point of view.
Those that talk of the end of the West and indeed an empire may be correct if Afghanistan proves to be the last of these interventions from the US
The mistake they have made time and again is to equate the amount they've spent on military aid with the likelihood of their chosen allies retaining power.
https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1426772508921917440 As pro-Trump voices pivot from hailing Trump for abandoning Afghanistan to slamming Biden for abandoning Afghanistan, I remember a line from a novel about Germany in the 1930s. "Our opponents have one tremendous advantage over us: their absolute shamelessness."
...For good or ill, the Biden policy on Afghanistan is the same as the Trump policy, only with less lying.
"Defence Committee chairman Tobias Ellwood said it was a humiliation for the West."
Really? What a perceptive chap. But yeah, we're talking about p*ssing squillions of quid up the wall fighting a war that it was impossible to win, on a foreign country's say-so, and then at the moment of final defeat not even being able to withdraw in orderly fashion. The responsibility for that last failure must surely lie with Boris Johnson who has been PM for two years, easily long enough to withdraw calmly and without panic. But given that he couldn't be bothered, quite possibly by this time tomorrow there will be a POW issue: "release prisoners you're holding in Guantanamo and Diego Garcia and we'll release the prisoners we took in Kabul who couldn't grab on to the helicopter skids in time." (Clue: do the f***ing deal. Much better to do the deal than have videos circulate of British embassy staff getting their heads cut off because you didn't.)
"Despite the decision of the Biden administration to withdraw the remaining US troops which triggered the collapse, Mr Ellwood said it was still not too late to turn the situation around.
He called for the despatch of the Royal Navy carrier strike group to the region and urged the Prime Minister to convene an emergency conference of "like-minded nations" to see what could be done."
What a maniac. Carpet-bombing on the way out of the door, huh? Remind me how that worked in Vietnam and Kampuchea. The only military issue now for Britain is the evacuation.
Tobias is absolutely right.
Biden is by far the weakest President of my entire lifetime in foreign policy terms, he has handed Afghanistan back on a plate to jihadis and terrorists and the Taliban.
If and when we get 9/11 2 it will be Biden and Harris to blame.
They have weakened the West in the face of Russia and China and emboldened militant Islam.
Biden even makes the Carter administration look strong
And Johnson and the Tories here of course, who have pulled out too, and not shown the slightest hint at applying influence to change USA policy, for example at the G7 in Cornwall a couple of months back.
Rory Stewart hit the nail squarely on the head this morning.
The withdrawal of air support was the nail in the coffin for the Afghan National Army and Government. It would have been much harder for the Taliban to advance if they faced the kind of air assault the US, UK and others can muster.
Yet the Afghan Air Force has supposedly 180 aircraft which is I suspect is 180 more than the Taliban though the latter have (I presume) anti-aircraft missiles at their disposal.
The fact remains a well-equipped modern army has disintegrated in just five weeks and whatever vitriol you want to hurl at Biden, the questions remains why no one has tried to fight for Ghani and the anti-Taliban forces.
Indeed. Why should Americans or Brits risk their lives against Stinger missiles if Afghans are not minded to?
To defend ourselves from a jihadi nation exporting terror. As happened before
I predict that within 5 years we will be bombing Afghanistan again. Not invading, but bombing, yes
It's not the terror exports we have to worry about - it is the opium exports.
So is the Afghanistan intervention now deemed to be a bigger failure than the Iraq intervention ?
Perhaps a better idea would have been to partition Afghanistan between Pakistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and anyone else who wanted a part.
The two are inextricably linked, I think. If the resources committed to Iraq had instead been committed to the Afghan adventure, rather than doing it on the cheap and outsourcing the work on the ground to local warlords, then the attempts at nation building we've seen in recent years might have started a decade earlier.
It might still have ended in failure, but the odds would have been far better.
Iraq is now clearly in a better state than Afghanistan, it has a democratic government, Saddam Hussein is no more and is now largely ISIS free.
Biden however has wrecked Afghanistan by allowing the Taliban and Al Qaeda back on a plate.
George W Bush now looks like a foreign policy genius in the light of the hapless, weak, pathetic disaster that is this Biden-Harris administration
"Defence Committee chairman Tobias Ellwood said it was a humiliation for the West."
Really? What a perceptive chap. But yeah, we're talking about p*ssing squillions of quid up the wall fighting a war that it was impossible to win, on a foreign country's say-so, and then at the moment of final defeat not even being able to withdraw in orderly fashion. The responsibility for that last failure must surely lie with Boris Johnson who has been PM for two years, easily long enough to withdraw calmly and without panic. But given that he couldn't be bothered, quite possibly by this time tomorrow there will be a POW issue: "release prisoners you're holding in Guantanamo and Diego Garcia and we'll release the prisoners we took in Kabul who couldn't grab on to the helicopter skids in time." (Clue: do the f***ing deal. Much better to do the deal than have videos circulate of British embassy staff getting their heads cut off because you didn't.)
"Despite the decision of the Biden administration to withdraw the remaining US troops which triggered the collapse, Mr Ellwood said it was still not too late to turn the situation around.
He called for the despatch of the Royal Navy carrier strike group to the region and urged the Prime Minister to convene an emergency conference of "like-minded nations" to see what could be done."
What a maniac. Carpet-bombing on the way out of the door, huh? Remind me how that worked in Vietnam and Kampuchea. The only military issue now for Britain is the evacuation.
Tobias is absolutely right.
Biden is by far the weakest President of my entire lifetime in foreign policy terms, he has handed Afghanistan back on a plate to jihadis and terrorists and the Taliban.
If and when we get 9/11 2 it will be Biden and Harris to blame.
They have weakened the West in the face of Russia and China and emboldened militant Islam.
Biden even makes the Carter administration look strong
The Boris regime are also withdrawing their troops from Afghanistan.
https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1426772508921917440 As pro-Trump voices pivot from hailing Trump for abandoning Afghanistan to slamming Biden for abandoning Afghanistan, I remember a line from a novel about Germany in the 1930s. "Our opponents have one tremendous advantage over us: their absolute shamelessness."
...For good or ill, the Biden policy on Afghanistan is the same as the Trump policy, only with less lying.
We only get one path of history. Who knows what Trump would have done in this situation?
One thing I do know is that if Trump had u-turned, his critics would not have applauded him for doing so.
So is the Afghanistan intervention now deemed to be a bigger failure than the Iraq intervention ?
Perhaps a better idea would have been to partition Afghanistan between Pakistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and anyone else who wanted a part.
The two are inextricably linked, I think. If the resources committed to Iraq had instead been committed to the Afghan adventure, rather than doing it on the cheap and outsourcing the work on the ground to local warlords, then the attempts at nation building we've seen in recent years might have started a decade earlier.
It might still have ended in failure, but the odds would have been far better.
I've heard that theory many times but I think the speed of Afghanistan's collapse now invalidates it.
After twenty years there turned out to be absolutely no substance to the modern Afghanistan.
A bit more support in the earlier years would have had no lasting effect, the whole project was fundamentally flawed.
In fact we need to reverse the theory and wonder how much more effectively the resources wasted in Afghanistan could have been used in other places.
"Defence Committee chairman Tobias Ellwood said it was a humiliation for the West."
Really? What a perceptive chap. But yeah, we're talking about p*ssing squillions of quid up the wall fighting a war that it was impossible to win, on a foreign country's say-so, and then at the moment of final defeat not even being able to withdraw in orderly fashion. The responsibility for that last failure must surely lie with Boris Johnson who has been PM for two years, easily long enough to withdraw calmly and without panic. But given that he couldn't be bothered, quite possibly by this time tomorrow there will be a POW issue: "release prisoners you're holding in Guantanamo and Diego Garcia and we'll release the prisoners we took in Kabul who couldn't grab on to the helicopter skids in time." (Clue: do the f***ing deal. Much better to do the deal than have videos circulate of British embassy staff getting their heads cut off because you didn't.)
"Despite the decision of the Biden administration to withdraw the remaining US troops which triggered the collapse, Mr Ellwood said it was still not too late to turn the situation around.
He called for the despatch of the Royal Navy carrier strike group to the region and urged the Prime Minister to convene an emergency conference of "like-minded nations" to see what could be done."
What a maniac. Carpet-bombing on the way out of the door, huh? Remind me how that worked in Vietnam and Kampuchea. The only military issue now for Britain is the evacuation.
Tobias is absolutely right.
Biden is by far the weakest President of my entire lifetime in foreign policy terms, he has handed Afghanistan back on a plate to jihadis and terrorists and the Taliban.
If and when we get 9/11 2 it will be Biden and Harris to blame.
They have weakened the West in the face of Russia and China and emboldened militant Islam.
Biden even makes the Carter administration look strong
And Johnson and the Tories here of course, who have pulled out too, and not shown the slightest hint at applying influence to change USA policy, for example at the G7 in Cornwall a couple of months back.
*whispers* Does that mean that there actually isn't a special relationship?
"Defence Committee chairman Tobias Ellwood said it was a humiliation for the West."
Really? What a perceptive chap. But yeah, we're talking about p*ssing squillions of quid up the wall fighting a war that it was impossible to win, on a foreign country's say-so, and then at the moment of final defeat not even being able to withdraw in orderly fashion. The responsibility for that last failure must surely lie with Boris Johnson who has been PM for two years, easily long enough to withdraw calmly and without panic. But given that he couldn't be bothered, quite possibly by this time tomorrow there will be a POW issue: "release prisoners you're holding in Guantanamo and Diego Garcia and we'll release the prisoners we took in Kabul who couldn't grab on to the helicopter skids in time." (Clue: do the f***ing deal. Much better to do the deal than have videos circulate of British embassy staff getting their heads cut off because you didn't.)
"Despite the decision of the Biden administration to withdraw the remaining US troops which triggered the collapse, Mr Ellwood said it was still not too late to turn the situation around.
He called for the despatch of the Royal Navy carrier strike group to the region and urged the Prime Minister to convene an emergency conference of "like-minded nations" to see what could be done."
What a maniac. Carpet-bombing on the way out of the door, huh? Remind me how that worked in Vietnam and Kampuchea. The only military issue now for Britain is the evacuation.
Tobias is absolutely right.
Biden is by far the weakest President of my entire lifetime in foreign policy terms, he has handed Afghanistan back on a plate to jihadis and terrorists and the Taliban.
If and when we get 9/11 2 it will be Biden and Harris to blame.
They have weakened the West in the face of Russia and China and emboldened militant Islam.
Biden even makes the Carter administration look strong
And Johnson and the Tories here of course, who have pulled out too, and not shown the slightest hint at applying influence to change USA policy, for example at the G7 in Cornwall a couple of months back.
Wallace made clear he tried to change US policy but to no avail.
However I agree Davey's LDs have been the best on this in pushing against withdrawal
Can't wait to read John Gray's analysis of what's happening in Afghanistan.
Not much to wait for - he basically predicted it all 20 or so years ago.
I suppose the main question left for him is whether western societies actually go on in any form at all or whether they will completely collapse in the face of more powerful and coherant adverseries?
Certainly he had some optimism about Brexit and Trump representing the seeds of a viable post liberal society: yet this must have been severely dashed in 2020 by the woke transformation of society and the aggressive resurgence of progress as a religion.
I don't think he has much left to say - other than we're all fucked.
Parliament to be recalled...to do what exactly? Invade?
Have a bit of a moan, say they are worried and do absolutely nothing.
Don't be ridiculous. There is lots to do, huge amounts of blame and responsibility to be avoided, narratives to set etc. They certainly would not want to look completely ineffectual and pointless, would they?
I'll bet you the non-mortgaged portion of my house that the phrase 'lessons will/should be learned' will rear its ugly head.
Possible lessons:
(1) Attempting to impose western values on countries that have a culture that is deeply inimical to them is doomed to failure. (2) The money and resources spent on being embedded and building up domestic forces who have no interest in fighting for said values is completely wasted and the activity is delusional. (3) Pakistan is not our friend. Not even close to being a friend. (4) Modern softy democracies are not capable of sustaining a war effort that produces material numbers of body bags over an extended period (which may or may not be a good thing).
No 1 there is most pertinent, I think. It doesn't seem to dawn on a lot of people that other cultures don't necessarily want to be just like us....
Who is arguing that they did ? Education, for example, is not an exclusively western value. But for a fragmented society like Afghanistan, any such efforts must take at least a generation.
I think it's forgotten just how little effort was made to impose any values at all, after the original defeat of the Taliban.
"Defence Committee chairman Tobias Ellwood said it was a humiliation for the West."
Really? What a perceptive chap. But yeah, we're talking about p*ssing squillions of quid up the wall fighting a war that it was impossible to win, on a foreign country's say-so, and then at the moment of final defeat not even being able to withdraw in orderly fashion. The responsibility for that last failure must surely lie with Boris Johnson who has been PM for two years, easily long enough to withdraw calmly and without panic. But given that he couldn't be bothered, quite possibly by this time tomorrow there will be a POW issue: "release prisoners you're holding in Guantanamo and Diego Garcia and we'll release the prisoners we took in Kabul who couldn't grab on to the helicopter skids in time." (Clue: do the f***ing deal. Much better to do the deal than have videos circulate of British embassy staff getting their heads cut off because you didn't.)
"Despite the decision of the Biden administration to withdraw the remaining US troops which triggered the collapse, Mr Ellwood said it was still not too late to turn the situation around.
He called for the despatch of the Royal Navy carrier strike group to the region and urged the Prime Minister to convene an emergency conference of "like-minded nations" to see what could be done."
What a maniac. Carpet-bombing on the way out of the door, huh? Remind me how that worked in Vietnam and Kampuchea. The only military issue now for Britain is the evacuation.
Tobias is absolutely right.
Biden is by far the weakest President of my entire lifetime in foreign policy terms, he has handed Afghanistan back on a plate to jihadis and terrorists and the Taliban.
If and when we get 9/11 2 it will be Biden and Harris to blame.
They have weakened the West in the face of Russia and China and emboldened militant Islam.
Biden even makes the Carter administration look strong
And Johnson and the Tories here of course, who have pulled out too, and not shown the slightest hint at applying influence to change USA policy, for example at the G7 in Cornwall a couple of months back.
*whispers* Does that mean that there actually isn't a special relationship?
Only if you consider a poodle to have a special relationship to its owner.
"Leave it Fido, or no chlorinated chicken for dinner"
He called for the despatch of the Royal Navy carrier strike group to the region and urged the Prime Minister to convene an emergency conference of "like-minded nations" to see what could be done."
LOL. It's in fucking Guam. The Afghans should have realised we've pivoted to the Pacific.
In any case isn't Kabul about 1000km from open sea? There are empty gestures, then there would be this.
Yes. Even the US would struggle to do anything without an Afghan base; the idea that we could project power in this manner is risible.
20 000 to female doctors, academics, teachers etc and their immediate families seems a reasonable place to start. Pro rata to population of Canada would be 50 000 ish.
Comments
https://twitter.com/jamesmb/status/1426806062192250880?s=19
But you guys knock yerselves out. Again
https://twitter.com/jaglancy/status/1426878440838508547?s=20
Perhaps a better idea would have been to partition Afghanistan between Pakistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and anyone else who wanted a part.
America have lost their key allies in the same way on several occasions before: China (1949), South Vietnam (1975), Iran (1979). In each case an incoherent set of kleptocrats was no match for a motivated nationalistic opposition. Afghanistan is probably the least significant loss of these from a geopolitical point of view.
Those that talk of the end of the West and indeed an empire may be correct if Afghanistan proves to be the last of these interventions from the US
Though my favourite chant was when Leicester were awarded a second dodgy penalty (in pre VAR* days), I think against Wimbledon. We sang at the referee "you DO know what you're doing" at their best fans can be quite witty.
*incidentally the officials have learnt a lot from the Euros. VAR was not an issue in the matches so far this weekend. Officials are letting things flow, and VAR in use, but you would hardly know.
"Eck Flag of European Union Flag of Scotland
@eckevand
By the Taliban? Why?"
https://twitter.com/eckevand/status/1426881825696362498?s=20
This highlights an increasingly visible problem for the Labour Party: they’ve lost touch with the north. And in trying to shake off their cosmopolitan shackles, they’ve sold themselves a false narrative that traditional voters are still perturbed by historical issues. Going back to your roots does not mean literally entering a time machine. It is sad to see that Margaret Thatcher still haunts Labour from beyond the grave and their obsession with the North’s supposed universal disliking for her is often misguided.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-margaret-thatcher-coal-mines-joke-b1902348.html
Given the mess they've made of their own country I don't see what we gain by encouraging them to come.
This is why the Taliban promises of a peaceful takeover are utter bullshit. They have fought a brutal guerrilla campaign for 20 years - and won. They have killed 70,000 Afghans in that campaign, and seen their own side slaughtered. They have at least 10,000 bloodthirsty foreign jihadis in their ranks - veterans of ISIS and AQ and the rest
There will now be the most terrible butchering of the enemy, and the evil will only grow and expand from there
This is a grim day for the entire world
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/20/opinion/taliban-afghanistan-war-haqqani.html
"OPINION
What We, the Taliban, Want
I am convinced that the killing and the maiming must stop, the deputy leader of the Taliban writes
Feb. 20, 2020"
Worth noting that the Vietnamese diaspora in America is now 2 million strong. There were trivial numbers before the fall of Saigon.
Thats how you stop scroungers coming from safe places like Afghanistan to take our jobs and claim benefits. So sayeth Tory voters apparently.
Isn't the normal failing to recruit poor peasants who sympathise with the enemy and hate the corrupt elites.
While the westernised middle classes believe that military service is beneath them.
The poor peasants in the army then join the enemy in shooting the westernised middle classes while the corrupt elites flee the country with their stolen riches.
Biden is by far the weakest President of my entire lifetime in foreign policy terms, he has handed Afghanistan back on a plate to jihadis and terrorists and the Taliban.
If and when we get 9/11 2 it will be Biden and Harris to blame.
They have weakened the West in the face of Russia and China and emboldened militant Islam.
Biden even makes the Carter administration look strong
"A very sad day. The situation in Afghanistan is shocking. Our thoughts are with the Afghan people.
The government has been silent as Afghanistan collapses which will have ramifications in the UK.
Our immediate priority must be to evacuate British personnel and support staff."
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1426886448934961156?s=20
I sometimes wonder if he is parodying himself, the most boring politician in the galaxy, for his own amusement
They were happy to go along with it as long as they were protected by Western firepower, and well-paid, but they weren't actually that interested in fighting.
I think that the 4th goal probably should have stood because (a) it was seriously close when the ball was hit and (b) the finish was awesome.
There are empty gestures, then there would be this.
If the resources committed to Iraq had instead been committed to the Afghan adventure, rather than doing it on the cheap and outsourcing the work on the ground to local warlords, then the attempts at nation building we've seen in recent years might have started a decade earlier.
It might still have ended in failure, but the odds would have been far better.
In the absence of international allies there was little more that Britain alone could have done
Ben Wallace
Secretary Of State For Defence"
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/14/have-not-betrayed-afghanistan/
Gordon Guthrie
@gordonguthrie
3h
Not exactly looking to former New Labour luminaries who had a hand in the disastrous pivot from Afghanistan to Iraq for guidance on here today kthxbai
"#BREAKING: That's Kampani neighborhood of #Kabul! #Taliban jihadists as well as the recently freed members of #AlQaeda are celebrating the takeover of #Afghanistan by Taliban."
https://twitter.com/BabakTaghvaee/status/1426883640466739202?s=20
“I am not afraid to die. But I am afraid that my family will be killed. My mother, brothers and sisters and niece and nephew can’t stay in Kabul any longer”
Just got done with another phone call from Kabul. Desperate call in tears.
Requesting EAM
@DrSJaishankar
to kindly note."
https://twitter.com/AdityaRajKaul/status/1426883400577683457?s=20
Last tourist in Afghanistan
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/as-the-taliban-rise-again-afghanistans-past-threatens-its-present
Published in print next month.
By which time it will be out of date, but pretty much every forecast has been accurate.
I strongly suspect that, at the end of all this, it will transpire that the Government hasn't done nearly enough to rescue those who have helped it directly in Afghanistan in the past, and that's reprehensible. There's a big difference, however, between insisting upon this and advocating an open door. Firstly there are vastly more distressed people in Afghanistan alone, let alone throughout the globe, who would like to come here than can be reasonably accommodated; secondly, the existing population of this island won't stand for it and, unless you're advocating the abolition of popular government, some attention needs to be paid to their wishes as well.
If we're going to draw unfavourable comparisons between Canada and Britain then we might also pause to consider the fact that Canada has the luxury of choice. Irregular migrants from Asia and Africa who transit Europe soon find themselves a dinghy ride across the Channel from Kent if they want to come here. Canada is separated by oceans from the Old World, and irregular migrants travelling up through Central America (if they are able to get across the US border in the first place) generally settle there, rather than venturing to more northerly climes.
The UK must do the same
As pro-Trump voices pivot from hailing Trump for abandoning Afghanistan to slamming Biden for abandoning Afghanistan, I remember a line from a novel about Germany in the 1930s. "Our opponents have one tremendous advantage over us: their absolute shamelessness."
...For good or ill, the Biden policy on Afghanistan is the same as the Trump policy, only with less lying.
Biden however has wrecked Afghanistan by allowing the Taliban and Al Qaeda back on a plate.
George W Bush now looks like a foreign policy genius in the light of the hapless, weak, pathetic disaster that is this Biden-Harris administration
One thing I do know is that if Trump had u-turned, his critics would not have applauded him for doing so.
To govern is to choose. Biden owns this.
After twenty years there turned out to be absolutely no substance to the modern Afghanistan.
A bit more support in the earlier years would have had no lasting effect, the whole project was fundamentally flawed.
In fact we need to reverse the theory and wonder how much more effectively the resources wasted in Afghanistan could have been used in other places.
Does that mean that there actually isn't a special relationship?
However I agree Davey's LDs have been the best on this in pushing against withdrawal
NEW THREAD
I suppose the main question left for him is whether western societies actually go on in any form at all or whether they will completely collapse in the face of more powerful and coherant adverseries?
Certainly he had some optimism about Brexit and Trump representing the seeds of a viable post liberal society: yet this must have been severely dashed in 2020 by the woke transformation of society and the aggressive resurgence of progress as a religion.
I don't think he has much left to say - other than we're all fucked.
Education, for example, is not an exclusively western value. But for a fragmented society like Afghanistan, any such efforts must take at least a generation.
I think it's forgotten just how little effort was made to impose any values at all, after the original defeat of the Taliban.
"Leave it Fido, or no chlorinated chicken for dinner"
Even the US would struggle to do anything without an Afghan base; the idea that we could project power in this manner is risible.