The changed perceptions of government performance since GE2019 – politicalbetting.com

Fishing said:

londonpubman said:

StuartDickson said:

felix said:

Selebian said:

felix said:

Selebian said:

Scott_xP said:

UK recorded 29,312 coronavirus cases in last 24 hours.
Here’s how we compare to other countries:

🇬🇧 UK - 29,312

🇫🇷 FRANCE - 1,996
🇩🇪 GERMANY - 1,776
🇪🇸 SPAIN - 4,954
🇮🇹 ITALY - 3,185

🇺🇸 USA - 15,081
🇧🇷 BRAZIL - 20,503
🇮🇳 INDIA - 30,549
🇮🇩 INDONESIA - 33,900
(Data: @who)
https://twitter.com/mrmikecowan/status/1422939172902514688

Leaving aside different points in cycle etc, on a 7 day basis, Spain and France are very comparable to UK according to OWID. OWID also suggests Spain and France reporting is massively variable on a single day basis.

It's a nonsense stat anyway, to make any kind of point about how well countries are doing. But taking a single day (with likely different reporting lags between countries) speaks of dubious motivation.

Scott'n paste orgasms whenever he senses gloom and doom for the UK v EU. Notice how he's avoiding the Olympic Medal table.

Didn't someone post on this before and note that the EU are way ahead of us on medals?

It was the idiot Dickson who pretended it was one country with no limits on the number of competitor entries. BDS is a serious illness and apparently there is no vaccine or cure.

Swings and roundabouts. Yes, the EU gets more competitors per event (which in most cases makes zero difference to podium places), but on the other hand the EU misses out on loads of relay and team podium placing.

It doesn’t matter how you look at it, the English are getting utterly thrashed by the EU at this Olympics.

Please show us an EU country anywhere near us in the medal table

😊😊😊

They have better things to spend hundreds of millions or billions of public money on than chasing bits of coloured metal.

The huge investment in coaching, technology, sponsorship and the rest arose as I recall because of fear that if we bid for our own games we risked seeing a repeat of the dire Atlanta (one gold) result and being humiliated and embarrassed on the domestic stage. Thus a massive slice of lottery money was directed toward identifying and supporting a relatively small number of elite athletes. The high spot was beating the Chinese in the table and coming second to the US in Rio 2016.

The only ‘recent’ EU venues have been Barcelona 1992, where Spain came sixth in the table, and Athens 2004 where as a very small country Greece was never going to get into the upper part. It will be interesting to see what Paris 2024 does for the French medal tally.

The relative underperformers in a historical context are the Germans. In both Atlanta and Barcelona, Germany was third in the table, and at many Olympics before that taking East and West together, they’d be second. Whether they’ll see another home Games, after the last affair, who knows?

..

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Mens 4x100m relay -- GB through after running second behind Jamaica but USA did not qualify (only sixth in their heat).

Tell it not in Gath.

US having an abysmal Olympics by their standards.

The NHS has lost its prestigious ranking as the best health system in a study of 11 rich countries by an influential US thinktank.

The UK has fallen from first to fourth in the Commonwealth Fund’s latest analysis of the performance of the healthcare systems in the nations it studied.

Norway, the Netherlands and Australia now provide better care than the UK, it found. The findings are a blow to the NHS, which had been the top-rated system in the thinktank’s two previous reports in 2017 and 2014. The US had by far the worst-rated system, despite spending the most on care.

IanB2 said:

Cats are still dying in significant numbers from a mystery illness that investigators believe may be linked to widely sold cat food brands, prompting concern that not enough is being done to warn owners about a nationwide product recall.

Vets around the UK are understood to have been swamped by cases of pancytopenia, a condition in which the number of red blood cells, white blood cells and platelets decreases rapidly, causing serious illness.

The Royal Veterinary College (RVC) said this week it was aware of at least 528 cases in cats over the past few months, of which 63.5% have proved fatal. The true number of deaths could be far higher, it said, because many cases are not reported to vets and only a small percentage of vets pass data on to the RVC.

Certain batches of Sainsbury’s hypoallergenic cat foods, Applaws and AVA (a Pets at Home brand) were recalled by their manufacturer, Fold Hill Foods, in mid-June, prompting an investigation by the RVC and the Food Standards Agency (FSA). The RVC and FSA are yet to confirm the cause of the spate of deaths, more than six weeks after initially raising the alarm. The length of the investigation is said to be causing frustration among cat food suppliers. Both agencies have said they are looking into all possibilities, including those not associated with food.

get em to wear masks innit

Galal Yafai through to the flyweight boxing final on a split decision.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Dominic Cummings has claimed that Boris Johnson said his partner Carrie was driving him 'crackers' and suggested finding her 'a job with lots of foreign travel'.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9862213/Dominic-Cummings-claims-Boris-wanted-Carrie-job-lots-foreign-travel.html

Didn’t work for Mrs May

noneoftheabove said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Dominic Cummings has claimed that Boris Johnson said his partner Carrie was driving him 'crackers' and suggested finding her 'a job with lots of foreign travel'.

The Prime Minister's former chief adviser also said that Mr Johnson offered him a peerage when he left No 10.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9862213/Dominic-Cummings-claims-Boris-wanted-Carrie-job-lots-foreign-travel.html

Lord Cummings of Barnard Castle?

Lord Cummings of Crook would be more apt.

Foxy said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Simon Gleave, head of sports analysis, Nielsen Gracenote says: "Great Britain have closed the gap with the Rio and London Olympics and now have 48 medals after 12 days of competition compared to 49 in 2016 and 48 in 2012.

"However, at both of those Olympics, sailing, taekwondo and triathlon were still going on in the last four days of the Games so expect 2021 to fall behind again on total medals won."

Again, I would draw attention to the high ratio of gold to silver medals for Japan and Australia.

Rank    Country         Gold    Silver  Bronze  Total
1       China           32      22      16      70
2       USA             25      31      23      79
3       Japan           21       7      12      40
4       Great Britain   15      18      15      48
5       Australia       15       4      17      36
6       ROC             14      21      18      53
7       Germany          8       8      16      32
8       France           6      10       9      25
9       Italy            6       9      15      30
10      Netherlands      6       8       9      23

If this means they have less strength in depth than other countries, then so be it. But if it instead means that Japan and Australia are better at turning their contenders into champions, then if we could emulate that then we'd be in the top three countries for gold medals, and possibly the top two. Take Australia's gold and silver medals: they have 19, of which 15, or 80 per cent, are gold. Britain has 33, and 80 per cent would mean 26 gold medals (and 7 silver).

Obviously life is not like that but it does suggest there might be more to play for.

My bet on China topping the table for Golds looking good.

Clearly we narrowly missed out on more so with a bit more could get more.

On a Medals per capita basis* I think Australia would be top, then the Netherlands, then us.

*not sure how this works further down the table. I think the Mongolians do well at wrestling.

Norway in the winter olympics must be a big per-capita over-achievement.

Take out those nations that have hosted the summer Games since Atlanta and of the rest you have in order the remnant Russians followed by Germany, New Zealand, Italy and France.

IanB2 said:

Foxy said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Simon Gleave, head of sports analysis, Nielsen Gracenote says: "Great Britain have closed the gap with the Rio and London Olympics and now have 48 medals after 12 days of competition compared to 49 in 2016 and 48 in 2012.

"However, at both of those Olympics, sailing, taekwondo and triathlon were still going on in the last four days of the Games so expect 2021 to fall behind again on total medals won."

Again, I would draw attention to the high ratio of gold to silver medals for Japan and Australia.

Rank    Country         Gold    Silver  Bronze  Total
1       China           32      22      16      70
2       USA             25      31      23      79
3       Japan           21       7      12      40
4       Great Britain   15      18      15      48
5       Australia       15       4      17      36
6       ROC             14      21      18      53
7       Germany          8       8      16      32
8       France           6      10       9      25
9       Italy            6       9      15      30
10      Netherlands      6       8       9      23

If this means they have less strength in depth than other countries, then so be it. But if it instead means that Japan and Australia are better at turning their contenders into champions, then if we could emulate that then we'd be in the top three countries for gold medals, and possibly the top two. Take Australia's gold and silver medals: they have 19, of which 15, or 80 per cent, are gold. Britain has 33, and 80 per cent would mean 26 gold medals (and 7 silver).

Obviously life is not like that but it does suggest there might be more to play for.

My bet on China topping the table for Golds looking good.

Clearly we narrowly missed out on more so with a bit more could get more.

On a Medals per capita basis* I think Australia would be top, then the Netherlands, then us.

*not sure how this works further down the table. I think the Mongolians do well at wrestling.

Norway in the winter olympics must be a big per-capita over-achievement.

Take out those nations that have hosted the summer Games since Atlanta and of the rest you have in order the remnant Russians followed by Germany, New Zealand, Italy and France.

A New Zealand Olympics might be fun!

OldKingCole said:

IanB2 said:

Foxy said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Simon Gleave, head of sports analysis, Nielsen Gracenote says: "Great Britain have closed the gap with the Rio and London Olympics and now have 48 medals after 12 days of competition compared to 49 in 2016 and 48 in 2012.

"However, at both of those Olympics, sailing, taekwondo and triathlon were still going on in the last four days of the Games so expect 2021 to fall behind again on total medals won."

Again, I would draw attention to the high ratio of gold to silver medals for Japan and Australia.

Rank    Country         Gold    Silver  Bronze  Total
1       China           32      22      16      70
2       USA             25      31      23      79
3       Japan           21       7      12      40
4       Great Britain   15      18      15      48
5       Australia       15       4      17      36
6       ROC             14      21      18      53
7       Germany          8       8      16      32
8       France           6      10       9      25
9       Italy            6       9      15      30
10      Netherlands      6       8       9      23

If this means they have less strength in depth than other countries, then so be it. But if it instead means that Japan and Australia are better at turning their contenders into champions, then if we could emulate that then we'd be in the top three countries for gold medals, and possibly the top two. Take Australia's gold and silver medals: they have 19, of which 15, or 80 per cent, are gold. Britain has 33, and 80 per cent would mean 26 gold medals (and 7 silver).

Obviously life is not like that but it does suggest there might be more to play for.

My bet on China topping the table for Golds looking good.

Clearly we narrowly missed out on more so with a bit more could get more.

On a Medals per capita basis* I think Australia would be top, then the Netherlands, then us.

*not sure how this works further down the table. I think the Mongolians do well at wrestling.

Norway in the winter olympics must be a big per-capita over-achievement.

Take out those nations that have hosted the summer Games since Atlanta and of the rest you have in order the remnant Russians followed by Germany, New Zealand, Italy and France.

A New Zealand Olympics might be fun!

Might they do Wellingtons of events?

theProle said:

state_go_away said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Dominic Cummings has claimed that Boris Johnson said his partner Carrie was driving him 'crackers' and suggested finding her 'a job with lots of foreign travel'.

The Prime Minister's former chief adviser also said that Mr Johnson offered him a peerage when he left No 10.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9862213/Dominic-Cummings-claims-Boris-wanted-Carrie-job-lots-foreign-travel.html

I think that reflects badly on Cummings. Whether in half jest or seriousness it is not the done thing to blurt out personal confidences like that

It also has a ring of truth.

I can't say I'm a fan of either side in the Carrie/Dom war, but on balance I'd rather Dom had won this one. Carries enthusiasm for turning the Tories into the greens will do a lot more damage to the country than Dom having bust ups with Sir Humphrey.

The trouble with the Cummings Tapes (as it were), is they are not tapes but reports from him from memory most of the time. We never see the context. It is entirely likely that Johnson made some joke about his wife driving him crackers and perhaps they could get her a post at an embassy thousands of miles away or some such. You hear similar in every saloon bar in Britain (from both sexes).

turbotubbs said:

ydoethur said:

OldKingCole said:

IanB2 said:

Foxy said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Simon Gleave, head of sports analysis, Nielsen Gracenote says: "Great Britain have closed the gap with the Rio and London Olympics and now have 48 medals after 12 days of competition compared to 49 in 2016 and 48 in 2012.

"However, at both of those Olympics, sailing, taekwondo and triathlon were still going on in the last four days of the Games so expect 2021 to fall behind again on total medals won."

Again, I would draw attention to the high ratio of gold to silver medals for Japan and Australia.

Rank    Country         Gold    Silver  Bronze  Total
1       China           32      22      16      70
2       USA             25      31      23      79
3       Japan           21       7      12      40
4       Great Britain   15      18      15      48
5       Australia       15       4      17      36
6       ROC             14      21      18      53
7       Germany          8       8      16      32
8       France           6      10       9      25
9       Italy            6       9      15      30
10      Netherlands      6       8       9      23

If this means they have less strength in depth than other countries, then so be it. But if it instead means that Japan and Australia are better at turning their contenders into champions, then if we could emulate that then we'd be in the top three countries for gold medals, and possibly the top two. Take Australia's gold and silver medals: they have 19, of which 15, or 80 per cent, are gold. Britain has 33, and 80 per cent would mean 26 gold medals (and 7 silver).

Obviously life is not like that but it does suggest there might be more to play for.

My bet on China topping the table for Golds looking good.

Clearly we narrowly missed out on more so with a bit more could get more.

On a Medals per capita basis* I think Australia would be top, then the Netherlands, then us.

*not sure how this works further down the table. I think the Mongolians do well at wrestling.

Norway in the winter olympics must be a big per-capita over-achievement.

Take out those nations that have hosted the summer Games since Atlanta and of the rest you have in order the remnant Russians followed by Germany, New Zealand, Italy and France.

A New Zealand Olympics might be fun!

Might they do Wellingtons of events?

It’s early, so you can be forgiven for possibly your weakest pun of all time...

There’s no need to put the boot in.

turbotubbs said:

ydoethur said:

OldKingCole said:

IanB2 said:

Foxy said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Simon Gleave, head of sports analysis, Nielsen Gracenote says: "Great Britain have closed the gap with the Rio and London Olympics and now have 48 medals after 12 days of competition compared to 49 in 2016 and 48 in 2012.

"However, at both of those Olympics, sailing, taekwondo and triathlon were still going on in the last four days of the Games so expect 2021 to fall behind again on total medals won."

Again, I would draw attention to the high ratio of gold to silver medals for Japan and Australia.

Rank    Country         Gold    Silver  Bronze  Total
1       China           32      22      16      70
2       USA             25      31      23      79
3       Japan           21       7      12      40
4       Great Britain   15      18      15      48
5       Australia       15       4      17      36
6       ROC             14      21      18      53
7       Germany          8       8      16      32
8       France           6      10       9      25
9       Italy            6       9      15      30
10      Netherlands      6       8       9      23

If this means they have less strength in depth than other countries, then so be it. But if it instead means that Japan and Australia are better at turning their contenders into champions, then if we could emulate that then we'd be in the top three countries for gold medals, and possibly the top two. Take Australia's gold and silver medals: they have 19, of which 15, or 80 per cent, are gold. Britain has 33, and 80 per cent would mean 26 gold medals (and 7 silver).

Obviously life is not like that but it does suggest there might be more to play for.

My bet on China topping the table for Golds looking good.

Clearly we narrowly missed out on more so with a bit more could get more.

On a Medals per capita basis* I think Australia would be top, then the Netherlands, then us.

*not sure how this works further down the table. I think the Mongolians do well at wrestling.

Norway in the winter olympics must be a big per-capita over-achievement.

Take out those nations that have hosted the summer Games since Atlanta and of the rest you have in order the remnant Russians followed by Germany, New Zealand, Italy and France.

A New Zealand Olympics might be fun!

Might they do Wellingtons of events?

It’s early, so you can be forgiven for possibly your weakest pun of all time...

I think he needs the mental stimulation of interaction with his students!

On vaccine for teenagers:

"For Judith Guzman-Cottrill – a paediatric infectious diseases specialist at Oregon Health & Science University who identified some of the first reported cases of vaccine-induced myocarditis in adolescents earlier this year – the decision to have her 13 year old daughter immunised against Covid-19 was ultimately a straightforward one."

Telegraph

RobD said:

rottenborough said:

BigRich said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

More letter writing to the Lancet...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9861827/Group-scientists-criticise-No10-unacceptable-delay-vaccinating-children-against-Covid.html

is this the same people who confidently predicted there would be 100,000 cases by now?

Yep.

"Lead author and Independent SAGE member Professor Christina Pagel"

iSAGE can sure move quickly on to new terrain when one of their predictions or prescriptions implodes without pausing for breath.

They are an utter joke.

That’s an insult to hard working comedians everywhere!

rottenborough said:

turbotubbs said:

rottenborough said:

DavidL said:

rottenborough said:

BigRich said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

More letter writing to the Lancet...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9861827/Group-scientists-criticise-No10-unacceptable-delay-vaccinating-children-against-Covid.html

is this the same people who confidently predicted there would be 100,000 cases by now?

Yep.

"Lead author and Independent SAGE member Professor Christina Pagel"

iSAGE can sure move quickly on to new terrain when one of their predictions or prescriptions implodes without pausing for breath.

They have been an absolute disgrace throughout. Alarmist, misleading, useless. I would very much hope that their professional bodies, where they have them, have taken note and are considering charges of bringing the profession into disrepute.

One thing I am curious about is whether all their respective universities have agreed to the secondment to iSAGE? For some of them at least this has got to be a full time job. I mean they are never off 24 hour news. So they have presumably sought and recvd permission to put down their day jobs doing research with measured outputs?

Most universities will just love having their ‘stars’ in the media, and not worry too much what they say. And dont forget, pb is not representative of the nation. Remember 17% want a lockdown right now. For all that many of us on here think they are at best misguided, that is probably not the majority view amongst many of the still very scared.

Indeed. Most unis would be v happy as their name always appears in the title of the person on TV. Those lumps of £9K don't just walk through the door. But when I worked in unis you would still need permission to be away from the day job like this.

Certainly not that regulated at my uni. Besides our ‘workload’ is typically many more hours than are actually available. If you want to add more that’s up to you.

geoffw said:

RobD said:

It would be very interesting if you could go back in time and do the same thing for past governments. I strongly suspect none has ever outperformed expectations.

Thatcher's govt probably exceeded expectations, in both directions.

This one is only one way and it is down down down, never have so many crooks been gathered in a government in history, anywhere.

londonpubman said:

StuartDickson said:

felix said:

Selebian said:

felix said:

Selebian said:

Scott_xP said:

UK recorded 29,312 coronavirus cases in last 24 hours.
Here’s how we compare to other countries:

🇬🇧 UK - 29,312

🇫🇷 FRANCE - 1,996
🇩🇪 GERMANY - 1,776
🇪🇸 SPAIN - 4,954
🇮🇹 ITALY - 3,185

🇺🇸 USA - 15,081
🇧🇷 BRAZIL - 20,503
🇮🇳 INDIA - 30,549
🇮🇩 INDONESIA - 33,900
(Data: @who)
https://twitter.com/mrmikecowan/status/1422939172902514688

Leaving aside different points in cycle etc, on a 7 day basis, Spain and France are very comparable to UK according to OWID. OWID also suggests Spain and France reporting is massively variable on a single day basis.

It's a nonsense stat anyway, to make any kind of point about how well countries are doing. But taking a single day (with likely different reporting lags between countries) speaks of dubious motivation.

Scott'n paste orgasms whenever he senses gloom and doom for the UK v EU. Notice how he's avoiding the Olympic Medal table.

Didn't someone post on this before and note that the EU are way ahead of us on medals?

It was the idiot Dickson who pretended it was one country with no limits on the number of competitor entries. BDS is a serious illness and apparently there is no vaccine or cure.

Swings and roundabouts. Yes, the EU gets more competitors per event (which in most cases makes zero difference to podium places), but on the other hand the EU misses out on loads of relay and team podium placing.

It doesn’t matter how you look at it, the English are getting utterly thrashed by the EU at this Olympics.

Please show us an EU country anywhere near us in the medal table

😊😊😊

Sad, suffering insecure little loser syndrome.

malcolmg said:

geoffw said:

RobD said:

It would be very interesting if you could go back in time and do the same thing for past governments. I strongly suspect none has ever outperformed expectations.

Thatcher's govt probably exceeded expectations, in both directions.

This one is only one way and it is down down down, never have so many crooks been gathered in a government in history, anywhere.

Oooh I don't know. An historian might opine.

OldKingCole said:

Sandpit said:

RobD said:

IanB2 said:

Tomorrow’s announcement today:

A number of key destinations as well as international travel hubs will be removed from the red list – India, Bahrain, Qatar and the UAE. India’s placement on the red list was the subject of substantial controversy after MPs accused Boris Johnson of delaying its inclusion in the spring as cases rapidly rose and the new Delta variant emerged.

Mexico, Georgia, Réunion and Mayotte are to be added to the red list. More countries will also be added to the green list where travellers can go regardless of vaccine status. New green list countries are Austria, Germany, Slovenia, Slovakia, Latvia, Romania and Norway. All changes come into effect at 4am on Sunday 8 August in England.

That statement is inaccurate. The green list is a list of countries where travellers can return from without quarantine. New Zealand is on the green list, good luck going there.

It’s also very asymmetric. People travelling from the Middle East countries back to the UK are only exempt from quarantine if they were vaccinated in the UK. Not if they were vaccinated abroad.

It’s still a minimum of five days’ quarantine (with the expensive test-to-release scheme) if I travel from UAE to UK, even though I had two UK-approved Pfizer vaccines.

Son-in-Thailand has had two vaccine shots, but with Sinovac. Doesn't think he'll be allowed into the UK without quarantine plus the scheme to which Mr S refers, if at all.

Eventually he will, unless the UK doesn’t want any tourists from China anymore.

rottenborough said:

On vaccine for teenagers:

"For Judith Guzman-Cottrill – a paediatric infectious diseases specialist at Oregon Health & Science University who identified some of the first reported cases of vaccine-induced myocarditis in adolescents earlier this year – the decision to have her 13 year old daughter immunised against Covid-19 was ultimately a straightforward one."

Telegraph

Is this the ultimate anecdote vs. data story?

RobD said:

rottenborough said:

On vaccine for teenagers:

"For Judith Guzman-Cottrill – a paediatric infectious diseases specialist at Oregon Health & Science University who identified some of the first reported cases of vaccine-induced myocarditis in adolescents earlier this year – the decision to have her 13 year old daughter immunised against Covid-19 was ultimately a straightforward one."

Telegraph

Is this the ultimate anecdote vs. data story?

Anecdote trumps data, Shirley.

RobD said:

OldKingCole said:

Sandpit said:

RobD said:

IanB2 said:

Tomorrow’s announcement today:

A number of key destinations as well as international travel hubs will be removed from the red list – India, Bahrain, Qatar and the UAE. India’s placement on the red list was the subject of substantial controversy after MPs accused Boris Johnson of delaying its inclusion in the spring as cases rapidly rose and the new Delta variant emerged.

Mexico, Georgia, Réunion and Mayotte are to be added to the red list. More countries will also be added to the green list where travellers can go regardless of vaccine status. New green list countries are Austria, Germany, Slovenia, Slovakia, Latvia, Romania and Norway. All changes come into effect at 4am on Sunday 8 August in England.

That statement is inaccurate. The green list is a list of countries where travellers can return from without quarantine. New Zealand is on the green list, good luck going there.

It’s also very asymmetric. People travelling from the Middle East countries back to the UK are only exempt from quarantine if they were vaccinated in the UK. Not if they were vaccinated abroad.

It’s still a minimum of five days’ quarantine (with the expensive test-to-release scheme) if I travel from UAE to UK, even though I had two UK-approved Pfizer vaccines.

Son-in-Thailand has had two vaccine shots, but with Sinovac. Doesn't think he'll be allowed into the UK without quarantine plus the scheme to which Mr S refers, if at all.

Eventually he will, unless the UK doesn’t want any tourists from China anymore.

Eventually could be a long time away in the new (post Covid) world...

eek said:

RobD said:

OldKingCole said:

Sandpit said:

RobD said:

IanB2 said:

Tomorrow’s announcement today:

A number of key destinations as well as international travel hubs will be removed from the red list – India, Bahrain, Qatar and the UAE. India’s placement on the red list was the subject of substantial controversy after MPs accused Boris Johnson of delaying its inclusion in the spring as cases rapidly rose and the new Delta variant emerged.

Mexico, Georgia, Réunion and Mayotte are to be added to the red list. More countries will also be added to the green list where travellers can go regardless of vaccine status. New green list countries are Austria, Germany, Slovenia, Slovakia, Latvia, Romania and Norway. All changes come into effect at 4am on Sunday 8 August in England.

That statement is inaccurate. The green list is a list of countries where travellers can return from without quarantine. New Zealand is on the green list, good luck going there.

It’s also very asymmetric. People travelling from the Middle East countries back to the UK are only exempt from quarantine if they were vaccinated in the UK. Not if they were vaccinated abroad.

It’s still a minimum of five days’ quarantine (with the expensive test-to-release scheme) if I travel from UAE to UK, even though I had two UK-approved Pfizer vaccines.

Son-in-Thailand has had two vaccine shots, but with Sinovac. Doesn't think he'll be allowed into the UK without quarantine plus the scheme to which Mr S refers, if at all.

Eventually he will, unless the UK doesn’t want any tourists from China anymore.

Eventually could be a long time away in the new (post Covid) world...

Especially in a Chinese perspective - cf Chou En-lai on the French revolution (I know, I know).

geoffw said:

RobD said:

rottenborough said:

On vaccine for teenagers:

"For Judith Guzman-Cottrill – a paediatric infectious diseases specialist at Oregon Health & Science University who identified some of the first reported cases of vaccine-induced myocarditis in adolescents earlier this year – the decision to have her 13 year old daughter immunised against Covid-19 was ultimately a straightforward one."

Telegraph

Is this the ultimate anecdote vs. data story?

Anecdote trumps data, Shirley.

"...And don't call me Shirley"

rottenborough said:

DavidL said:

rottenborough said:

BigRich said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

More letter writing to the Lancet...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9861827/Group-scientists-criticise-No10-unacceptable-delay-vaccinating-children-against-Covid.html

is this the same people who confidently predicted there would be 100,000 cases by now?

Yep.

"Lead author and Independent SAGE member Professor Christina Pagel"

iSAGE can sure move quickly on to new terrain when one of their predictions or prescriptions implodes without pausing for breath.

They have been an absolute disgrace throughout. Alarmist, misleading, useless. I would very much hope that their professional bodies, where they have them, have taken note and are considering charges of bringing the profession into disrepute.

One thing I am curious about is whether all their respective universities have agreed to the secondment to iSAGE? For some of them at least this has got to be a full time job. I mean they are never off 24 hour news. So they have presumably sought and recvd permission to put down their day jobs doing research with measured outputs?

The phenomenon of the absent academic, who is more interested in being a talking head, is a long standing thing.

In a at least one case, his peers encouraged this. Since it got him out of the department.

CarlottaVance said:

How "Zero COVID" is going:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/video/2021/aug/05/victoria-enters-seven-day-lockdown-tonight-daniel-andrews-announces-in-covid-update-video

This will be their 6th.......

It was clear from the middle of last year that Covid was going to be a long term problem. Zero Covid only works in the long term if the whole world goes for it. Australia and NZ (also China) are now in the position where they've not vaccinated enough and are more susceptible to the virus accordingly.

Most of Europe couldn't do zero Covid because it had become endemic before any actions were taken in march 2020. in the rest of the world (eg south America, Africa, parts of the middle east) there are places which can't even isolate.

RobD said:

OldKingCole said:

Sandpit said:

RobD said:

IanB2 said:

Tomorrow’s announcement today:

A number of key destinations as well as international travel hubs will be removed from the red list – India, Bahrain, Qatar and the UAE. India’s placement on the red list was the subject of substantial controversy after MPs accused Boris Johnson of delaying its inclusion in the spring as cases rapidly rose and the new Delta variant emerged.

Mexico, Georgia, Réunion and Mayotte are to be added to the red list. More countries will also be added to the green list where travellers can go regardless of vaccine status. New green list countries are Austria, Germany, Slovenia, Slovakia, Latvia, Romania and Norway. All changes come into effect at 4am on Sunday 8 August in England.

That statement is inaccurate. The green list is a list of countries where travellers can return from without quarantine. New Zealand is on the green list, good luck going there.

It’s also very asymmetric. People travelling from the Middle East countries back to the UK are only exempt from quarantine if they were vaccinated in the UK. Not if they were vaccinated abroad.

It’s still a minimum of five days’ quarantine (with the expensive test-to-release scheme) if I travel from UAE to UK, even though I had two UK-approved Pfizer vaccines.

Son-in-Thailand has had two vaccine shots, but with Sinovac. Doesn't think he'll be allowed into the UK without quarantine plus the scheme to which Mr S refers, if at all.

Eventually he will, unless the UK doesn’t want any tourists from China anymore.

No Chinese tourists ever again sounds like a dream.

Foxy said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Simon Gleave, head of sports analysis, Nielsen Gracenote says: "Great Britain have closed the gap with the Rio and London Olympics and now have 48 medals after 12 days of competition compared to 49 in 2016 and 48 in 2012.

"However, at both of those Olympics, sailing, taekwondo and triathlon were still going on in the last four days of the Games so expect 2021 to fall behind again on total medals won."

Again, I would draw attention to the high ratio of gold to silver medals for Japan and Australia.

Rank    Country         Gold    Silver  Bronze  Total
1       China           32      22      16      70
2       USA             25      31      23      79
3       Japan           21       7      12      40
4       Great Britain   15      18      15      48
5       Australia       15       4      17      36
6       ROC             14      21      18      53
7       Germany          8       8      16      32
8       France           6      10       9      25
9       Italy            6       9      15      30
10      Netherlands      6       8       9      23

If this means they have less strength in depth than other countries, then so be it. But if it instead means that Japan and Australia are better at turning their contenders into champions, then if we could emulate that then we'd be in the top three countries for gold medals, and possibly the top two. Take Australia's gold and silver medals: they have 19, of which 15, or 80 per cent, are gold. Britain has 33, and 80 per cent would mean 26 gold medals (and 7 silver).

Obviously life is not like that but it does suggest there might be more to play for.

My bet on China topping the table for Golds looking good.

Clearly we narrowly missed out on more so with a bit more could get more.

On a Medals per capita basis* I think Australia would be top, then the Netherlands, then us.

*not sure how this works further down the table. I think the Mongolians do well at wrestling.

My bet on not-Russia to be second is looking less healthy.

Malmesbury said:

MaxPB said:

RobD said:

OldKingCole said:

Sandpit said:

RobD said:

IanB2 said:

Tomorrow’s announcement today:

A number of key destinations as well as international travel hubs will be removed from the red list – India, Bahrain, Qatar and the UAE. India’s placement on the red list was the subject of substantial controversy after MPs accused Boris Johnson of delaying its inclusion in the spring as cases rapidly rose and the new Delta variant emerged.

Mexico, Georgia, Réunion and Mayotte are to be added to the red list. More countries will also be added to the green list where travellers can go regardless of vaccine status. New green list countries are Austria, Germany, Slovenia, Slovakia, Latvia, Romania and Norway. All changes come into effect at 4am on Sunday 8 August in England.

That statement is inaccurate. The green list is a list of countries where travellers can return from without quarantine. New Zealand is on the green list, good luck going there.

It’s also very asymmetric. People travelling from the Middle East countries back to the UK are only exempt from quarantine if they were vaccinated in the UK. Not if they were vaccinated abroad.

It’s still a minimum of five days’ quarantine (with the expensive test-to-release scheme) if I travel from UAE to UK, even though I had two UK-approved Pfizer vaccines.

Son-in-Thailand has had two vaccine shots, but with Sinovac. Doesn't think he'll be allowed into the UK without quarantine plus the scheme to which Mr S refers, if at all.

Eventually he will, unless the UK doesn’t want any tourists from China anymore.

No Chinese tourists ever again sounds like a dream.

Why? In London they are fairly quiet, and the wedding-photos-at-tourist-landmarks thing brightens my day when I see it....

I worked in Soho for 3 years. It's a nightmare trying to walk anywhere without bumping into selfie stick toting chinese tourists not looking where they're going.

Can someone explain to me why almost the entire Brexiteer right is anti-vac for minors aged 16+, and even more so for 12+?

My Twitter feed is full of posts saying it's tantamount to child abuse, and saying they'll mount a resistance campaign.

I don't get it.

Good morning, everyone.

Mr. Max, the overpopulation of Chinese cities means they grow accustomed to not caring about either being bumped slightly into or vice versa because it happens near constantly.

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

felix said:

Selebian said:

felix said:

Selebian said:

Scott_xP said:

UK recorded 29,312 coronavirus cases in last 24 hours.
Here’s how we compare to other countries:

🇬🇧 UK - 29,312

🇫🇷 FRANCE - 1,996
🇩🇪 GERMANY - 1,776
🇪🇸 SPAIN - 4,954
🇮🇹 ITALY - 3,185

🇺🇸 USA - 15,081
🇧🇷 BRAZIL - 20,503
🇮🇳 INDIA - 30,549
🇮🇩 INDONESIA - 33,900
(Data: @who)
https://twitter.com/mrmikecowan/status/1422939172902514688

Leaving aside different points in cycle etc, on a 7 day basis, Spain and France are very comparable to UK according to OWID. OWID also suggests Spain and France reporting is massively variable on a single day basis.

It's a nonsense stat anyway, to make any kind of point about how well countries are doing. But taking a single day (with likely different reporting lags between countries) speaks of dubious motivation.

Scott'n paste orgasms whenever he senses gloom and doom for the UK v EU. Notice how he's avoiding the Olympic Medal table.

Didn't someone post on this before and note that the EU are way ahead of us on medals?

It was the idiot Dickson who pretended it was one country with no limits on the number of competitor entries. BDS is a serious illness and apparently there is no vaccine or cure.

Swings and roundabouts. Yes, the EU gets more competitors per event (which in most cases makes zero difference to podium places), but on the other hand the EU misses out on loads of relay and team podium placing.

It doesn’t matter how you look at it, the English are getting utterly thrashed by the EU at this Olympics.

It is Team GB competing not England.

The Commonwealth has also won more golds than the EU

Let's be done with all the jingoistic petty nationalism and just call it TeamBoris.

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Pret, McColls and Welcome Break in minimum wage fail

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58083889

Some of the example companies "named and shamed" are on the face of it extremely unfair. John Lewis, one case, 4 years ago. That is clearly a mistake, and probably some weird edge case, where their accounting software bugged out. A huge organisation making a single balls up 4 years ago isn't exactly trying to pull a fast one on workers.

The report covers 2011 to 2018 which makes it hardly timely but cock-ups don't help when you are at the supermarket till and it is employers' responsibility to get it right. From your link:-

The government acknowledged that many of the breaches were not intentional, but said the minimum wage laws were meant to ensure that a fair day's work received a fair day's pay.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58083889

Nitpicking and a megaphone have been the technique since they started.

No idea why.

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

felix said:

Selebian said:

felix said:

Selebian said:

Scott_xP said:

UK recorded 29,312 coronavirus cases in last 24 hours.
Here’s how we compare to other countries:

🇬🇧 UK - 29,312

🇫🇷 FRANCE - 1,996
🇩🇪 GERMANY - 1,776
🇪🇸 SPAIN - 4,954
🇮🇹 ITALY - 3,185

🇺🇸 USA - 15,081
🇧🇷 BRAZIL - 20,503
🇮🇳 INDIA - 30,549
🇮🇩 INDONESIA - 33,900
(Data: @who)
https://twitter.com/mrmikecowan/status/1422939172902514688

Leaving aside different points in cycle etc, on a 7 day basis, Spain and France are very comparable to UK according to OWID. OWID also suggests Spain and France reporting is massively variable on a single day basis.

It's a nonsense stat anyway, to make any kind of point about how well countries are doing. But taking a single day (with likely different reporting lags between countries) speaks of dubious motivation.

Scott'n paste orgasms whenever he senses gloom and doom for the UK v EU. Notice how he's avoiding the Olympic Medal table.

Didn't someone post on this before and note that the EU are way ahead of us on medals?

It was the idiot Dickson who pretended it was one country with no limits on the number of competitor entries. BDS is a serious illness and apparently there is no vaccine or cure.

Swings and roundabouts. Yes, the EU gets more competitors per event (which in most cases makes zero difference to podium places), but on the other hand the EU misses out on loads of relay and team podium placing.

It doesn’t matter how you look at it, the English are getting utterly thrashed by the EU at this Olympics.

It is Team GB competing not England.

The Commonwealth has also won more golds than the EU

Let's be done with all the jingoistic petty nationalism and just call it TeamBoris.

It would be great if Sunil or someone could calculate Team ERII or Team Commonwealth’s medal haul just so Stuart Dickson would fuck off.

Casino_Royale said:

Can someone explain to me why almost the entire Brexiteer right is anti-vac for minors aged 16+, and even more so for 12+?

My Twitter feed is full of posts saying it's tantamount to child abuse, and saying they'll mount a resistance campaign.

I don't get it.

I for one will be delighted when as many 13-18 year olds as possible have been vaccinated (I’m not teaching Y7 or Y8 next year, so I’m not so worried about them).

Casino_Royale said:

Can someone explain to me why almost the entire Brexiteer right is anti-vac for minors aged 16+, and even more so for 12+?

My Twitter feed is full of posts saying it's tantamount to child abuse, and saying they'll mount a resistance campaign.

I don't get it.

I can't speak for them, but I feel there's a widely-held belief that kids don't suffer from Covid, and therefore any risk from vaccines is greater than the risk from Covid.

Most (?all?) of us on here know it's more complex than that:; kids can suffer, and even die, from Covid, and they can spread it through the rest of the population.

Gardenwalker said:

Casino_Royale said:

Can someone explain to me why almost the entire Brexiteer right is anti-vac for minors aged 16+, and even more so for 12+?

My Twitter feed is full of posts saying it's tantamount to child abuse, and saying they'll mount a resistance campaign.

I don't get it.

Flippant answer: they are Brexiters, so the nutjobbery is baked in.

Actual answer: something about the overweening power of the state to control the bodies of our children. I feel it myself, even though my rational head knows we vaccinate children for lots of things.

But vaccinations against infectious diseases are already commonplace for children at all sorts of ages and although non-compulsory have a very wide take-up.

The parent can make a choice but I think most would encourage their teenagers to get it.

I have no time for the anti MMR mob, and I don't think this is any different.

Casino_Royale said:

Can someone explain to me why almost the entire Brexiteer right is anti-vac for minors aged 16+, and even more so for 12+?

My Twitter feed is full of posts saying it's tantamount to child abuse, and saying they'll mount a resistance campaign.

I don't get it.

A lot of the Brexiteer Right, particularly that bit well represented on twitter, has minimised the risk from the virus as part of the argument against restrictions on liberty, and even more so minimised the risk to the young.

Being pro a vaccine for children would mean accepting that their previous position of the virus being zero risk for children was nonsense.

Casino_Royale said:

Gardenwalker said:

Casino_Royale said:

Can someone explain to me why almost the entire Brexiteer right is anti-vac for minors aged 16+, and even more so for 12+?

My Twitter feed is full of posts saying it's tantamount to child abuse, and saying they'll mount a resistance campaign.

I don't get it.

Flippant answer: they are Brexiters, so the nutjobbery is baked in.

Actual answer: something about the overweening power of the state to control the bodies of our children. I feel it myself, even though my rational head knows we vaccinate children for lots of things.

But vaccinations against infectious diseases are already commonplace for children at all sorts of ages and although non-compulsory have a very wide take-up.

The parent can make a choice but I think most would encourage their teenagers to get it.

I have no time for the anti MMR mob, and I don't think this is any different.

I think it is because they see vaccinating children (their children? would be interested) as a burden, and they feel that have already paid their due

Gardenwalker said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

felix said:

Selebian said:

felix said:

Selebian said:

Scott_xP said:

UK recorded 29,312 coronavirus cases in last 24 hours.
Here’s how we compare to other countries:

🇬🇧 UK - 29,312

🇫🇷 FRANCE - 1,996
🇩🇪 GERMANY - 1,776
🇪🇸 SPAIN - 4,954
🇮🇹 ITALY - 3,185

🇺🇸 USA - 15,081
🇧🇷 BRAZIL - 20,503
🇮🇳 INDIA - 30,549
🇮🇩 INDONESIA - 33,900
(Data: @who)
https://twitter.com/mrmikecowan/status/1422939172902514688

Leaving aside different points in cycle etc, on a 7 day basis, Spain and France are very comparable to UK according to OWID. OWID also suggests Spain and France reporting is massively variable on a single day basis.

It's a nonsense stat anyway, to make any kind of point about how well countries are doing. But taking a single day (with likely different reporting lags between countries) speaks of dubious motivation.

Scott'n paste orgasms whenever he senses gloom and doom for the UK v EU. Notice how he's avoiding the Olympic Medal table.

Didn't someone post on this before and note that the EU are way ahead of us on medals?

It was the idiot Dickson who pretended it was one country with no limits on the number of competitor entries. BDS is a serious illness and apparently there is no vaccine or cure.

Swings and roundabouts. Yes, the EU gets more competitors per event (which in most cases makes zero difference to podium places), but on the other hand the EU misses out on loads of relay and team podium placing.

It doesn’t matter how you look at it, the English are getting utterly thrashed by the EU at this Olympics.

It is Team GB competing not England.

The Commonwealth has also won more golds than the EU

Let's be done with all the jingoistic petty nationalism and just call it TeamBoris.

It would be great if Sunil or someone could calculate Team ERII or Team Commonwealth’s medal haul just so Stuart Dickson would fuck off.

Or even the “5 Eyes” countries v EU.....

MattW said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Pret, McColls and Welcome Break in minimum wage fail

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58083889

Some of the example companies "named and shamed" are on the face of it extremely unfair. John Lewis, one case, 4 years ago. That is clearly a mistake, and probably some weird edge case, where their accounting software bugged out. A huge organisation making a single balls up 4 years ago isn't exactly trying to pull a fast one on workers.

The report covers 2011 to 2018 which makes it hardly timely but cock-ups don't help when you are at the supermarket till and it is employers' responsibility to get it right. From your link:-

The government acknowledged that many of the breaches were not intentional, but said the minimum wage laws were meant to ensure that a fair day's work received a fair day's pay.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58083889

Nitpicking and a megaphone have been the technique since they started.

No idea why.

Since who started? It's the government.

Andy_JS said:

Can anyone explain how the world record for the women's 4x100 metres relay can be 40.82 secs when the world record for the women's 100 metres is 10.49 secs?

The quickest first 10 metres of MEN's sprinting ever recorded is 1.67 seconds. The women's 60 metre WR is 6.92. Accelerating to ~ 23 mph isn't instantaneous.

boulay said:

Gardenwalker said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

felix said:

Selebian said:

felix said:

Selebian said:

Scott_xP said:

UK recorded 29,312 coronavirus cases in last 24 hours.
Here’s how we compare to other countries:

🇬🇧 UK - 29,312

🇫🇷 FRANCE - 1,996
🇩🇪 GERMANY - 1,776
🇪🇸 SPAIN - 4,954
🇮🇹 ITALY - 3,185

🇺🇸 USA - 15,081
🇧🇷 BRAZIL - 20,503
🇮🇳 INDIA - 30,549
🇮🇩 INDONESIA - 33,900
(Data: @who)
https://twitter.com/mrmikecowan/status/1422939172902514688

Leaving aside different points in cycle etc, on a 7 day basis, Spain and France are very comparable to UK according to OWID. OWID also suggests Spain and France reporting is massively variable on a single day basis.

It's a nonsense stat anyway, to make any kind of point about how well countries are doing. But taking a single day (with likely different reporting lags between countries) speaks of dubious motivation.

Scott'n paste orgasms whenever he senses gloom and doom for the UK v EU. Notice how he's avoiding the Olympic Medal table.

Didn't someone post on this before and note that the EU are way ahead of us on medals?

It was the idiot Dickson who pretended it was one country with no limits on the number of competitor entries. BDS is a serious illness and apparently there is no vaccine or cure.

Swings and roundabouts. Yes, the EU gets more competitors per event (which in most cases makes zero difference to podium places), but on the other hand the EU misses out on loads of relay and team podium placing.

It doesn’t matter how you look at it, the English are getting utterly thrashed by the EU at this Olympics.

It is Team GB competing not England.

The Commonwealth has also won more golds than the EU

Let's be done with all the jingoistic petty nationalism and just call it TeamBoris.

It would be great if Sunil or someone could calculate Team ERII or Team Commonwealth’s medal haul just so Stuart Dickson would fuck off.

Or even the “5 Eyes” countries v EU.....

Bush43 wanted France in to make it Six Eyes (they'd be more use than Australia and NZ combined) but Sarkozy told him to do one.

Gardenwalker said:

Gardenwalker said:

Mexicanpete said:

HYUFD said:

StuartDickson said:

felix said:

Selebian said:

felix said:

Selebian said:

Scott_xP said:

UK recorded 29,312 coronavirus cases in last 24 hours.
Here’s how we compare to other countries:

🇬🇧 UK - 29,312

🇫🇷 FRANCE - 1,996
🇩🇪 GERMANY - 1,776
🇪🇸 SPAIN - 4,954
🇮🇹 ITALY - 3,185

🇺🇸 USA - 15,081
🇧🇷 BRAZIL - 20,503
🇮🇳 INDIA - 30,549
🇮🇩 INDONESIA - 33,900
(Data: @who)
https://twitter.com/mrmikecowan/status/1422939172902514688

Leaving aside different points in cycle etc, on a 7 day basis, Spain and France are very comparable to UK according to OWID. OWID also suggests Spain and France reporting is massively variable on a single day basis.

It's a nonsense stat anyway, to make any kind of point about how well countries are doing. But taking a single day (with likely different reporting lags between countries) speaks of dubious motivation.

Scott'n paste orgasms whenever he senses gloom and doom for the UK v EU. Notice how he's avoiding the Olympic Medal table.

Didn't someone post on this before and note that the EU are way ahead of us on medals?

It was the idiot Dickson who pretended it was one country with no limits on the number of competitor entries. BDS is a serious illness and apparently there is no vaccine or cure.

Swings and roundabouts. Yes, the EU gets more competitors per event (which in most cases makes zero difference to podium places), but on the other hand the EU misses out on loads of relay and team podium placing.

It doesn’t matter how you look at it, the English are getting utterly thrashed by the EU at this Olympics.

It is Team GB competing not England.

The Commonwealth has also won more golds than the EU

Let's be done with all the jingoistic petty nationalism and just call it TeamBoris.

It would be great if Sunil or someone could calculate Team ERII or Team Commonwealth’s medal haul just so Stuart Dickson would fuck off.

This is mean to Stuart Dickson, and I repent.
But I found his seemingly drunken comments last night very irksome.

Sorry Stuart. But you are a bit irksome.

I’m going to use that word more myself.“Irksome”. Like it.

Gardenwalker said:

Casino_Royale said:

Can someone explain to me why almost the entire Brexiteer right is anti-vac for minors aged 16+, and even more so for 12+?

My Twitter feed is full of posts saying it's tantamount to child abuse, and saying they'll mount a resistance campaign.

I don't get it.

Flippant answer: they are Brexiters, so the nutjobbery is baked in.

Actual answer: something about the overweening power of the state to control the bodies of our children. I feel it myself, even though my rational head knows we vaccinate children for lots of things.

Your flippant answer is closer to the truth although unnecessarily insulting.

The rationalisation is that it is untested or that it imposes risks on children for no benefit. The reason is that Brexiteers are more likely to be part of alt-right networks where anti-vax is just another weapon for the trolls, often funded by foreign actors.

Sandpit said:

JosiasJessop said:

Casino_Royale said:

Can someone explain to me why almost the entire Brexiteer right is anti-vac for minors aged 16+, and even more so for 12+?

My Twitter feed is full of posts saying it's tantamount to child abuse, and saying they'll mount a resistance campaign.

I don't get it.

I can't speak for them, but I feel there's a widely-held belief that kids don't suffer from Covid, and therefore any risk from vaccines is greater than the risk from Covid.

Most (?all?) of us on here know it's more complex than that:; kids can suffer, and even die, from Covid, and they can spread it through the rest of the population.

They’re a similar group to those who styled themselves as ‘anti-lockdown’, where of course the definition of ‘lockdown’ was a constantly moving feast.

There are reasonable arguments to be made in favour of what they wish, but they are making the most silly and disengenuous arguments instead.

Same as the ‘Independent SAGE’ mob on the other side.

I actually have far more sympathy with an anti-lockdown or even anti-mask case being made - in many cases outwith confined poorly ventilated spaces masks are now just a social convention and act as a bit of a placebo - because we faced an unprecedented loss of civil liberties and I like the fact a challenge was put up to that; once controls are in place the State is generally reluctant to lift them, and gets an appetite for more.

I have no sympathy with an anti-vaccine case, which I think is barmy, and struggle to respect those who conflate and confuse the two.

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Casino_Royale said:

Foxy said:

IanB2 said:

The NHS has lost its prestigious ranking as the best health system in a study of 11 rich countries by an influential US thinktank.

The UK has fallen from first to fourth in the Commonwealth Fund’s latest analysis of the performance of the healthcare systems in the nations it studied.

Norway, the Netherlands and Australia now provide better care than the UK, it found. The findings are a blow to the NHS, which had been the top-rated system in the thinktank’s two previous reports in 2017 and 2014. The US had by far the worst-rated system, despite spending the most on care.

I think that it will take the NHS much longer to recover than other nations systems. The reason is that the NHS is designed to ration care by limiting capacity, so there is no slack in the system available for catch up. This is the flipside of the redundancy and duplication of other systems.

There is the absence of financial incentives to take on more work too as we are all salaried rather than on piece rates like many countries.

That's a very good summary of the strengths and weaknesses of the NHS.

No it isn't because the NHS is not designed to ration by limiting capacity. The point is to maximise utilisation of expensive capital equipment: just think of @rcs1000's beloved productivity figures! Of course, the corollary of high use is low spare capacity, which in normal times means a patient might sometimes need to be sent further away. It breaks down when everyone gets ill at the same time, such as the annual winter flu crisis, but that can be dismissed as lefties crying wolf about 24 hours to save the NHS, again! and is self-correcting. This pandemic is testing that model almost to destruction.

The effect is as @Foxy says, to ration by limited capacity, but that was not the intention, just its inevitable by-product.

In general, the NHS is moderately rubbish at Capacity & Operations Planning. They used to be completely rubbish, but have improved.

LostPassword said:

Casino_Royale said:

Can someone explain to me why almost the entire Brexiteer right is anti-vac for minors aged 16+, and even more so for 12+?

My Twitter feed is full of posts saying it's tantamount to child abuse, and saying they'll mount a resistance campaign.

I don't get it.

A lot of the Brexiteer Right, particularly that bit well represented on twitter, has minimised the risk from the virus as part of the argument against restrictions on liberty, and even more so minimised the risk to the young.

Being pro a vaccine for children would mean accepting that their previous position of the virus being zero risk for children was nonsense.

That's as well put as any argument.

Thanks.