If Not Now, When? – politicalbetting.com
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What will happen is that increasing numbers won't wear masks so the vigilantes will have lost the battle. I mean, you can hardly go around telling 20% of a train carriage that they should mask up and that number will rise. I was on a train a fortnight ago and nearly 1 in 5 weren't wearing masks. I was one of them.
To be fair, no one has ever told me to mask up even when it was the law (I'm exempt anyway).0 -
Well, that's OK if you're going somewhere within walking distance of a car-park!eek said:
And you wonder why Andy Burnham isn't doing anything.Philip_Thompson said:
I wouldn't do that but I certainly think people should mind their own business.Foxy said:
We have had posters here proudly announce that they are going to tell anyone who asks them to mask up to "f**k off". Presumably to the front line transport/waiting/shp staff who are making such requests. It's probably just the beer talking, but no need for such rudeness.DavidL said:
Why not indeed? They surely have the right to make it a condition of travel (with suitable exemptions). I don't see any incompatibility between the withdrawal of the legal regulatory framework by the government and the need for the suppliers of services to give proper consideration to the risks to their staff and the fellow users of their services.CarlottaVance said:Burnham wriggling on R4 - if mask wearing is so important why not mandate it on Manchester trams? Passes the buck to the government.
Anyone getting into others face and telling them what they should or should not wear within the law is a prat.
The one thing I can safely say is that I won't be rushing to use public transport in the near future (until this wave burns out). If I need to go to London or elsewhere it will be by car not train. likewise public transport.0 -
Great post.Philip_Thompson said:
Not true.Jonathan said:
It’s not the people that voluntarily wear a mask that you have to worry about, it’s the people that don’t.Philip_Thompson said:
This is completely self contradictory nonsense.RochdalePioneers said:
This. We know there are a decent number of self-entitled people out there who will aggressively say "fuck you" to anyone suggesting they need to wear a mask once the legal requirement is dropped.eek said:
Because I he mandates it the issue moves down to conductors and other front line workers to deal with.and without any threat of a fine / police backup it's pointless.CarlottaVance said:Burnham wriggling on R4 - if mask wearing is so important why not mandate it on Manchester trams? Passes the buck to the government.
The issue is that you can't explain that in an interview as people will repeat the 5 seconds they want and remove the nuance.
There is going to be a lot of incidents in shops and on buses and other enclosed places where the angry entitled and the staff get into a row and that in the earlier phases of the pandemic is where the staff got assaulted.
We had a real problem with shop staff being verbally and physically abused and the bullshit from the government this last week is an open door for a repeat. That is why Burnham isn't mandating it on Metrolink. Most trams are unstaffed bar the driver anyway, so even if he did want to put his staff in the front line realistically they won't be there.
If staff aren't there then how is asking the public to keep wearing a mask putting non existent staff on a line?
All you need to do is have signs and stickers etc up saying something like "Metrolink politely requests customers to wear a mask. Exemptions apply. Thank you for your cooperation."
Then leave it to the public, with the nudge there.
This isn't a binary divide. The public isn't divided into those who definitely will and those who definitely won't, and you're not going to get those who definitely won't wear one to do so. They're already not doing so today claiming entirely legally that they're exempt.
There is a group in the middle who might or might not wear one. Those certainly could be nudged into doing so if you wish to nudge them.
But if you want to rely upon everyone wearing one you're on a hiding to nothing. It's already not happening today and it certainly won't be when it's quite rightly no longer legally mandated.1 -
At which point we are doomed - until this wave burns itself out. All we can do is hope that another one doesn't follow.Philip_Thompson said:
Not true.Jonathan said:
It’s not the people that voluntarily wear a mask that you have to worry about, it’s the people that don’t.Philip_Thompson said:
This is completely self contradictory nonsense.RochdalePioneers said:
This. We know there are a decent number of self-entitled people out there who will aggressively say "fuck you" to anyone suggesting they need to wear a mask once the legal requirement is dropped.eek said:
Because I he mandates it the issue moves down to conductors and other front line workers to deal with.and without any threat of a fine / police backup it's pointless.CarlottaVance said:Burnham wriggling on R4 - if mask wearing is so important why not mandate it on Manchester trams? Passes the buck to the government.
The issue is that you can't explain that in an interview as people will repeat the 5 seconds they want and remove the nuance.
There is going to be a lot of incidents in shops and on buses and other enclosed places where the angry entitled and the staff get into a row and that in the earlier phases of the pandemic is where the staff got assaulted.
We had a real problem with shop staff being verbally and physically abused and the bullshit from the government this last week is an open door for a repeat. That is why Burnham isn't mandating it on Metrolink. Most trams are unstaffed bar the driver anyway, so even if he did want to put his staff in the front line realistically they won't be there.
If staff aren't there then how is asking the public to keep wearing a mask putting non existent staff on a line?
All you need to do is have signs and stickers etc up saying something like "Metrolink politely requests customers to wear a mask. Exemptions apply. Thank you for your cooperation."
Then leave it to the public, with the nudge there.
This isn't a binary divide. The public isn't divided into those who definitely will and those who definitely won't, and you're not going to get those who definitely won't wear one to do so. They're already not doing so today claiming entirely legally that they're exempt.
There is a group in the middle who might or might not wear one. Those certainly could be nudged into doing so if you wish to nudge them.
But if you want to rely upon everyone wearing one you're on a hiding to nothing. It's already not happening today and it certainly won't be when it's quite rightly no longer legally mandated.0 -
I made a suggestion as to what Burnham could do if he wanted to do anything. He clearly doesn't, which is fair enough.eek said:
And you wonder why Andy Burnham isn't doing anything.Philip_Thompson said:
I wouldn't do that but I certainly think people should mind their own business.Foxy said:
We have had posters here proudly announce that they are going to tell anyone who asks them to mask up to "f**k off". Presumably to the front line transport/waiting/shp staff who are making such requests. It's probably just the beer talking, but no need for such rudeness.DavidL said:
Why not indeed? They surely have the right to make it a condition of travel (with suitable exemptions). I don't see any incompatibility between the withdrawal of the legal regulatory framework by the government and the need for the suppliers of services to give proper consideration to the risks to their staff and the fellow users of their services.CarlottaVance said:Burnham wriggling on R4 - if mask wearing is so important why not mandate it on Manchester trams? Passes the buck to the government.
Anyone getting into others face and telling them what they should or should not wear within the law is a prat.
The one thing I can safely say is that I won't be rushing to use public transport in the near future (until this wave burns out). If I need to go to London or elsewhere it will be by car not train. likewise public transport.
I don't use public transport, but am wearing a mask to the shops until the 18th and won't from the 19th.0 -
It's weird the weekly new case percentage rate growth was dropping rapidly until *checks notes* the 7-day period ending on 15th of June. Anything start happening around then (this time it is a rhetorical question)
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Very much my attitude and out of respect for others I will wear a mask wherever it is sensiblesquareroot2 said:
Whatever you may think. People like me will continue to do so in public places. It seems strange , but coming to terms with being close to a lot of people is a bit scary after spending over a year doing the exact opposite. It's going to take some time to feel comfortable again and I shall continue to be wary for the foreseeable future especially if R is >1Cocky_cockney said:
ExactlyFishing said:
Yes, there's no need for fully vaccinated people to wear masks, or to feel bad about not doing so.Cocky_cockney said:
With respect, telling someone that they have no right to make you wear a mask is not 'aggressive' per se. It's the law. So back off slapping that adverb please.RochdalePioneers said:
This. We know there are a decent number of self-entitled people out there who will aggressively say "fuck you" to anyone suggesting they need to wear a mask once the legal requirement is dropped.eek said:
Because I he mandates it the issue moves down to conductors and other front line workers to deal with.and without any threat of a fine / police backup it's pointless.CarlottaVance said:Burnham wriggling on R4 - if mask wearing is so important why not mandate it on Manchester trams? Passes the buck to the government.
The issue is that you can't explain that in an interview as people will repeat the 5 seconds they want and remove the nuance.
Secondly, refusing to wear a mask is not 'self-entitled'. That's incredibly patronising and supercilious of you. Some people cannot wear masks for medical reasons. Others don't wish to any longer because it is damaging to their mental health. I'm one of those. So stop hectoring others.
I bet you don't stick to the 30 mph speed limit at all times in built up areas?
This is turning into a dystopian Black Mirror episode where utter hypocrites feel it's their (self-entitled?!) right to lecture others.
The difference between the 30 mph - benefit for society - example and mask wearing is that one is illegal and the other isn't, or won't be very soon.
Furthermore, at our ages my wife and I despite being fully vaccinated will be careful and act responsibly1 -
The clowns should stick to playing football , if they want to enter politics do it outside the job. Wouldl your boss be happy if you were rampaging about the office spouting off about political matters.Taz said:
But in those terms she’s right. They do have a right to boo. Should they so wish. No laws are being broken. It’s just a bit daft to boo it and claim it’s supporting Marxism.Scott_xP said:WATCH: A reminder what Home Secretary said to me last month around taking the knee
Priti Patel said those involved are participating in “gesture politics” and when asked if England fans had a right to boo said “that's a choice for them, quite frankly”
https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1404407912890519552/video/1
I wouldn’t boo what is a well meaning gesture against a pervasive evil in society and if it is gesture politics it is a good gesture.
Keep your own political viewpoints out of sport, these overpaid dumplings need that drummed into them and told to get on with kicking the small round leather object up and down the grass.1 -
FFS of course we're not DOOMED. Jesus wept get some perspective. Around two dozen people are dying a day who had covid in the last 28 days, many of whom may have pegged out anyway.eek said:
At which point we are doomed - until this wave burns itself out. All we can do is hope that another one doesn't follow.Philip_Thompson said:
Not true.Jonathan said:
It’s not the people that voluntarily wear a mask that you have to worry about, it’s the people that don’t.Philip_Thompson said:
This is completely self contradictory nonsense.RochdalePioneers said:
This. We know there are a decent number of self-entitled people out there who will aggressively say "fuck you" to anyone suggesting they need to wear a mask once the legal requirement is dropped.eek said:
Because I he mandates it the issue moves down to conductors and other front line workers to deal with.and without any threat of a fine / police backup it's pointless.CarlottaVance said:Burnham wriggling on R4 - if mask wearing is so important why not mandate it on Manchester trams? Passes the buck to the government.
The issue is that you can't explain that in an interview as people will repeat the 5 seconds they want and remove the nuance.
There is going to be a lot of incidents in shops and on buses and other enclosed places where the angry entitled and the staff get into a row and that in the earlier phases of the pandemic is where the staff got assaulted.
We had a real problem with shop staff being verbally and physically abused and the bullshit from the government this last week is an open door for a repeat. That is why Burnham isn't mandating it on Metrolink. Most trams are unstaffed bar the driver anyway, so even if he did want to put his staff in the front line realistically they won't be there.
If staff aren't there then how is asking the public to keep wearing a mask putting non existent staff on a line?
All you need to do is have signs and stickers etc up saying something like "Metrolink politely requests customers to wear a mask. Exemptions apply. Thank you for your cooperation."
Then leave it to the public, with the nudge there.
This isn't a binary divide. The public isn't divided into those who definitely will and those who definitely won't, and you're not going to get those who definitely won't wear one to do so. They're already not doing so today claiming entirely legally that they're exempt.
There is a group in the middle who might or might not wear one. Those certainly could be nudged into doing so if you wish to nudge them.
But if you want to rely upon everyone wearing one you're on a hiding to nothing. It's already not happening today and it certainly won't be when it's quite rightly no longer legally mandated.
This is not a big killer in the UK any more and nor is it going to be. We have brilliant vaccines that have done their job. There are at least 20 bigger causes of death every day in the UK, including cancer which kills 450 per day. Wake up.1 -
Isn't that what the Republicans are doing? Instead of trying to get more people to vote for them - they seem to have given up on that wacky idea.Fishing said:
The Democrats' behaviour reminds me of my brother (and occasionally me) when we were younger: "I'm losing, so I'm not playing any more" .RochdalePioneers said:
The Grand Old Party has realised that letting people vote enables people to vote for the other party. So they are trying very hard to place blocks on voting where the undesirables live so that fewer of them will vote.Taz said:What on Earth is going on in the USA
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57814213
Democracy? Naah.3 -
How we brits sneered when the Capitol was invaded. And then we see not dissimilar scenes at Wembley. Seems fortunate for the authorities that the true story, of a narrowly averted tragedy, has been swept aside by the social media racism story.
It has also occurred to me that any senior policy maker or practitioner would be looking at those scenes and think “yup the games up for legally mandated social restrictions”. Didn’t really matter what the data said, the PM wasn’t going to undo “freedom day” last night. Hence the shifty body language and mixed messaging.0 -
Still don’t understand what you have against it.Philip_Thompson said:
Not true.Jonathan said:
It’s not the people that voluntarily wear a mask that you have to worry about, it’s the people that don’t.Philip_Thompson said:
This is completely self contradictory nonsense.RochdalePioneers said:
This. We know there are a decent number of self-entitled people out there who will aggressively say "fuck you" to anyone suggesting they need to wear a mask once the legal requirement is dropped.eek said:
Because I he mandates it the issue moves down to conductors and other front line workers to deal with.and without any threat of a fine / police backup it's pointless.CarlottaVance said:Burnham wriggling on R4 - if mask wearing is so important why not mandate it on Manchester trams? Passes the buck to the government.
The issue is that you can't explain that in an interview as people will repeat the 5 seconds they want and remove the nuance.
There is going to be a lot of incidents in shops and on buses and other enclosed places where the angry entitled and the staff get into a row and that in the earlier phases of the pandemic is where the staff got assaulted.
We had a real problem with shop staff being verbally and physically abused and the bullshit from the government this last week is an open door for a repeat. That is why Burnham isn't mandating it on Metrolink. Most trams are unstaffed bar the driver anyway, so even if he did want to put his staff in the front line realistically they won't be there.
If staff aren't there then how is asking the public to keep wearing a mask putting non existent staff on a line?
All you need to do is have signs and stickers etc up saying something like "Metrolink politely requests customers to wear a mask. Exemptions apply. Thank you for your cooperation."
Then leave it to the public, with the nudge there.
This isn't a binary divide. The public isn't divided into those who definitely will and those who definitely won't, and you're not going to get those who definitely won't wear one to do so. They're already not doing so today claiming entirely legally that they're exempt.
There is a group in the middle who might or might not wear one. Those certainly could be nudged into doing so if you wish to nudge them.
But if you want to rely upon everyone wearing one you're on a hiding to nothing. It's already not happening today and it certainly won't be when it's quite rightly no longer legally mandated.
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Do you think that Roman Polanski was a wrong'un or not?Roger said:You'd have to be very young not to have met or worked with a wrong 'un in most professions. Sacking a load of people and changing systems always seems an over reaction. People are unpredictable and the bad ones nearly always appear from left field so the chances you'd be making things better is slight. Cressida Dick seems fine. Priti Patel seems dangerous but compared to the sweet Beverley Allitt?
The arts have worked very hard to prove the Victorians right...1 -
Fact that it looks like his chums in the police covered up his escalating offences contributed a lot to it happening is pretty bad. Disaster after disaster but worst that seems to happen is they get promoted.DecrepiterJohnL said:@Cyclefree paints a disturbing picture. What Couzens did to Sarah Everard was evil. The Metropolitan Police seem to stagger from one crisis to the next, learning nothing.
And yet – and forgive me for not being familiar with the case – it is not clear that the two are causally connected. If Couzens had been discovered earlier and thrown out of the police, as he clearly should have been, or not recruited in the first place, how would this have saved Sarah Everard's life?
Couzens kidnapped, raped and murdered Sarah Everard but not in his role as a police officer. This was not like, for instance, tasering and kicking Dalian Atkinson to death or shooting Jean Charles de Menezes for running for the tube, or shooting Harry Stanley for carrying a chair leg, where the assailants' police standing was crucial.
Moving on, yes, the clues were there, as they often are. But we need to be careful that we do not rule out the rehabilitation of offenders. That man was convicted of flashing, or these days, that woman sent an offensive tweet. We have in the recent past had actors and reporters who in past lives had served time for murder: I'm not sure that could happen now.
But yes, on the big picture, there do seem to be systemic problems with the Met and other police forces. Lessons, one suspects, will not be learned.0 -
Unfortunately Yes, Cole - Hamilton could become leader of the mini gang.rcs1000 said:
My God, that's awful.StuartDickson said:
Yes, that lost seat on the regional list put them below the parliamentary threshold of five seats to be recognised as a group, which means the party lost rights in Holyrood. They have lost representation on the business bureau, where parties decide on the business of the parliament for the week, and lost a guaranteed question at First Minister’s Questions, among other things.HYUFD said:
Was it that poor? They lost 1 list seat and held all their constituencies at HolyroodStuartDickson said:Willie Rennie to quit as Scottish Lib Dems leader after party's poor Holyrood election
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/willie-rennie-quit-scottish-lib-24518972
They lost a guaranteed question at an event no-one cares about.
Can it get any worse for them???0 -
Individually good people can find themselves in a group with a sort of ethical blindness. They see someone behaving badly and they avoid them. They try not to behave like that but they don't tell them off etc. But like bad money driving out good, bad people tend to drive out the good. Or, rather their standards tend to become dominant.Foxy said:
Oh, I agree. There is often no clear line between good and bad people, few of us are saints or devil's, most are in between. Often the bad behaviour happens because of a culture of closing ranks, rather than the earlier intervention before things get out of hand. For example if Couzens had been reprimanded by his colleagues for his misogyny rather than nicknamed "the rapist" as a canteen joke.darkage said:Bad people exist. Many more people are getting away with stuff, and don't get caught, @Foxy alludes to this. They can even exist in HR departments. I am not convinced there is a clear line between good and bad, or that the answer to this problem is to allow people to exercise their judgement a bit more in rooting out evil. I am more of the view expressed by a famous writer once that the line between good and evil is a shifting one that exists within all human hearts, and we should conduct our affairs accordingly.
Good behaviour needs to be constantly reinforced - by example, by reward, by discipline and by calling out those who don't exhibit it. And the last is much harder to do than people think. It takes courage. Most people want a quiet life. Most people don't whistleblow and group loyalty is valued above the individual standing up to point out that the Emperor has no clothes etc.
One of the reasons I got a bit exercised by this case - while everyone was going football mad - was not just the similarity with what I have seen in finance (the failure to do proper due diligence before hiring someone) but the thought of poor Sarah's parents learning that their daughter's killer was known - as long as 10 years ago - as The Rapist, as some sort of bad joke or wry acknowledgment of what he was really like.
What they are suffering is unimaginable. To learn that on top of everything else feels like an unbelievably cruel twist. If that happened on my watch I would be moving heaven and earth to make sure that I never again had to be in the position of telling a grieving parent that.
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Against masks?Jonathan said:
Still don’t understand what you have against it.Philip_Thompson said:
Not true.Jonathan said:
It’s not the people that voluntarily wear a mask that you have to worry about, it’s the people that don’t.Philip_Thompson said:
This is completely self contradictory nonsense.RochdalePioneers said:
This. We know there are a decent number of self-entitled people out there who will aggressively say "fuck you" to anyone suggesting they need to wear a mask once the legal requirement is dropped.eek said:
Because I he mandates it the issue moves down to conductors and other front line workers to deal with.and without any threat of a fine / police backup it's pointless.CarlottaVance said:Burnham wriggling on R4 - if mask wearing is so important why not mandate it on Manchester trams? Passes the buck to the government.
The issue is that you can't explain that in an interview as people will repeat the 5 seconds they want and remove the nuance.
There is going to be a lot of incidents in shops and on buses and other enclosed places where the angry entitled and the staff get into a row and that in the earlier phases of the pandemic is where the staff got assaulted.
We had a real problem with shop staff being verbally and physically abused and the bullshit from the government this last week is an open door for a repeat. That is why Burnham isn't mandating it on Metrolink. Most trams are unstaffed bar the driver anyway, so even if he did want to put his staff in the front line realistically they won't be there.
If staff aren't there then how is asking the public to keep wearing a mask putting non existent staff on a line?
All you need to do is have signs and stickers etc up saying something like "Metrolink politely requests customers to wear a mask. Exemptions apply. Thank you for your cooperation."
Then leave it to the public, with the nudge there.
This isn't a binary divide. The public isn't divided into those who definitely will and those who definitely won't, and you're not going to get those who definitely won't wear one to do so. They're already not doing so today claiming entirely legally that they're exempt.
There is a group in the middle who might or might not wear one. Those certainly could be nudged into doing so if you wish to nudge them.
But if you want to rely upon everyone wearing one you're on a hiding to nothing. It's already not happening today and it certainly won't be when it's quite rightly no longer legally mandated.
They're uncomfortable, frustrating and make it hot, stuffy and harder to breathe normally.
I'll wear them if they're necessary, but won't if they're not - and they're not necessary anymore.
I've had both my vaccines, my second jab was over three weeks before the 19th. I put my faith in vaccines to get us out of the pandemic now, not pathetic pieces of unfiltered cloth.2 -
Well you're not trying to, are you?Jonathan said:
Still don’t understand what you have against it.Philip_Thompson said:
Not true.Jonathan said:
It’s not the people that voluntarily wear a mask that you have to worry about, it’s the people that don’t.Philip_Thompson said:
This is completely self contradictory nonsense.RochdalePioneers said:
This. We know there are a decent number of self-entitled people out there who will aggressively say "fuck you" to anyone suggesting they need to wear a mask once the legal requirement is dropped.eek said:
Because I he mandates it the issue moves down to conductors and other front line workers to deal with.and without any threat of a fine / police backup it's pointless.CarlottaVance said:Burnham wriggling on R4 - if mask wearing is so important why not mandate it on Manchester trams? Passes the buck to the government.
The issue is that you can't explain that in an interview as people will repeat the 5 seconds they want and remove the nuance.
There is going to be a lot of incidents in shops and on buses and other enclosed places where the angry entitled and the staff get into a row and that in the earlier phases of the pandemic is where the staff got assaulted.
We had a real problem with shop staff being verbally and physically abused and the bullshit from the government this last week is an open door for a repeat. That is why Burnham isn't mandating it on Metrolink. Most trams are unstaffed bar the driver anyway, so even if he did want to put his staff in the front line realistically they won't be there.
If staff aren't there then how is asking the public to keep wearing a mask putting non existent staff on a line?
All you need to do is have signs and stickers etc up saying something like "Metrolink politely requests customers to wear a mask. Exemptions apply. Thank you for your cooperation."
Then leave it to the public, with the nudge there.
This isn't a binary divide. The public isn't divided into those who definitely will and those who definitely won't, and you're not going to get those who definitely won't wear one to do so. They're already not doing so today claiming entirely legally that they're exempt.
There is a group in the middle who might or might not wear one. Those certainly could be nudged into doing so if you wish to nudge them.
But if you want to rely upon everyone wearing one you're on a hiding to nothing. It's already not happening today and it certainly won't be when it's quite rightly no longer legally mandated.
They are very restrictive and claustrophobic. For some people they induce anxiety and panic attacks. They increase CO2 inhalation (real problems with this amongst children). They make it very hard to understand what people are saying. For those who wear spectacles (like me) they are terrible. They almost invariably become hot and, on a longer journey, sweaty. They're nigh-impossible for deaf people who lip read (I do too). They destroy a vital element of social interaction: the nuances of facial expression, which are so important for interaction and human societies: which includes, but is not limited to, smiling and frowning. Finally, and perhaps more subtly than all of those reasons, they feel like a confinement: they are entrapping, like volunteering to wear handcuffs over your face.
Take that.1 -
Mr. Jonathan, glasses steaming up is tedious. And the first few times I wore a mask I had to focus to get my breathing under control. Not sure if I'm just more affected by that or if it's an aspect of facial architecture (I know some people just can't wear glasses because their nose refuses to co-operate).
If I had better eyes I'd just ditch the glasses but it's difficult even to read without them, so that's not an option.2 -
He should have been gone years ago , a duffer. Though to be fair who the hell else of the numpties left could even beat a carpetStuartDickson said:Willie Rennie to quit as Scottish Lib Dems leader after party's poor Holyrood election
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/willie-rennie-quit-scottish-lib-245189720 -
Yep - the Democrats know that a version of this bill will get into law if the Texas Capitol meets as they don't have enough votes to stop it. So the only thing they can is ensure it cannot meet.Malmesbury said:
Isn't that what the Republicans are doing? Instead of trying to get more people to vote for them - they seem to have given up on that wacky idea.Fishing said:
The Democrats' behaviour reminds me of my brother (and occasionally me) when we were younger: "I'm losing, so I'm not playing any more" .RochdalePioneers said:
The Grand Old Party has realised that letting people vote enables people to vote for the other party. So they are trying very hard to place blocks on voting where the undesirables live so that fewer of them will vote.Taz said:What on Earth is going on in the USA
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57814213
Democracy? Naah.
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If it's not in walking distance of a car park I'll order it from Amazon.OldKingCole said:
Well, that's OK if you're going somewhere within walking distance of a car-park!eek said:
And you wonder why Andy Burnham isn't doing anything.Philip_Thompson said:
I wouldn't do that but I certainly think people should mind their own business.Foxy said:
We have had posters here proudly announce that they are going to tell anyone who asks them to mask up to "f**k off". Presumably to the front line transport/waiting/shp staff who are making such requests. It's probably just the beer talking, but no need for such rudeness.DavidL said:
Why not indeed? They surely have the right to make it a condition of travel (with suitable exemptions). I don't see any incompatibility between the withdrawal of the legal regulatory framework by the government and the need for the suppliers of services to give proper consideration to the risks to their staff and the fellow users of their services.CarlottaVance said:Burnham wriggling on R4 - if mask wearing is so important why not mandate it on Manchester trams? Passes the buck to the government.
Anyone getting into others face and telling them what they should or should not wear within the law is a prat.
The one thing I can safely say is that I won't be rushing to use public transport in the near future (until this wave burns out). If I need to go to London or elsewhere it will be by car not train. likewise public transport.2 -
They wanted to do it 10 months ago before the bulk of people had been vaccinated. It was looney outlier crazy talk in that contextrottenborough said:
Basically stay at home or go outside for walk and only meet people you know have been jabbed.contrarian said:
How the heck can you tell?rottenborough said:Neil Henderson
@hendopolis
·
3m
I: 3.8 million vulnerable told: avoid people who haven’t had both jabs #TomorrowsPapersToday
Isn't this the vulnerable protection that Great Barrington talked about and was dismissed by Gov scientists as looney outlier crazy talk?1 -
Procedures are an aid to judgment. Not a substitute for them. You need both. I could give you so many examples of people following procedures blindly leading to disaster. When that keeps happening over and over again, you need to stop and think.eek said:
Issue with that argument is we have a set of procedures - if you don't follow them you are out the door...Cyclefree said:
I agree with the last sentence. A good leader will realise this and manage accordingly. But I strongly feel that we all need to learn to exercise judgment more. Too many people - certainly in finance - rely on procedures without applying any sort of judgment at all and it can lead to some astonishingly bad decisions.darkage said:Bad people exist. Many more people are getting away with stuff, and don't get caught, @Foxy alludes to this. They can even exist in HR departments. I am not convinced there is a clear line between good and bad, or that the answer to this problem is to allow people to exercise their judgement a bit more in rooting out evil. I am more of the view expressed by a famous writer once that the line between good and evil is a shifting one that exists within all human hearts, and we should conduct our affairs accordingly.
And most people need the money enough that they won't risk doing anything about it - it's only since I got f*** you money that life became easier and most people will only get into that position very close to retirement.
But yes it is easier to be a bit bolshie if (a) you are naturally bolshie; (b) you have options .
Which is why leaders have to try and create a culture where it is ok to question and challenge without people feeling that they're putting their jobs on the line.1 -
If anyone is that paranoid they want masks past the 19th despite vaccines they can buy an FFP3 mask. 🤷♂️0
-
Although the difference between the urgent and the important is a well known problemDougSeal said:
Can in congratulate you on finding new ways in which to be incredibly crass? A serial sex offender turned rapist/murderer is serving as an armed officer in the nation’s largest police force and you think no one gives a fuck? It’s of considerably more pressing concern than your flying fucking saucers (sorry for the swears - he started it) particularly to one not insignificant proportion of he population, which is underrepresented on this board anyway.Leon said:Can I congratulate Cyclefree and the mods for posting, as ever, an excellent and eloquent thread on a subject no one, right now, gives a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny little fuck about?
It is uncanny, your ability to find the subject-NOT-of-the-moment0 -
In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.
1 -
He was definitely right, when he said lobbying was going to be the next big scandal.rcs1000 said:
Wtf?DecrepiterJohnL said:The (paywalled) FT reports:-
Greensill Capital paid Cameron salary of more than $1m a year
Former prime minister said to have made in excess of $40,000 a day from collapsed finance firm
Nice work if you can get it.
I know how much "advisors" in the City get paid, with banks and funds taking advantage of their Rolodex, their draw at conferences, and yes, their occasional insights.
It's not $1m/year.
Plus massive quantities of share options.
Cameron was a fool.
He should stick to the rubber chicken circuit in the US, can probably the same money without sullying his reputation. See Brown, May and Major, as opposed to Blair.2 -
I'm getting to the point where I think that while there are some people who have standards and care about other people there are an awful lot of people who really don't and are only in it for themselves.Cyclefree said:
Individually good people can find themselves in a group with a sort of ethical blindness. They see someone behaving badly and they avoid them. They try not to behave like that but they don't tell them off etc. But like bad money driving out good, bad people tend to drive out the good. Or, rather their standards tend to become dominant.Foxy said:
Oh, I agree. There is often no clear line between good and bad people, few of us are saints or devil's, most are in between. Often the bad behaviour happens because of a culture of closing ranks, rather than the earlier intervention before things get out of hand. For example if Couzens had been reprimanded by his colleagues for his misogyny rather than nicknamed "the rapist" as a canteen joke.darkage said:Bad people exist. Many more people are getting away with stuff, and don't get caught, @Foxy alludes to this. They can even exist in HR departments. I am not convinced there is a clear line between good and bad, or that the answer to this problem is to allow people to exercise their judgement a bit more in rooting out evil. I am more of the view expressed by a famous writer once that the line between good and evil is a shifting one that exists within all human hearts, and we should conduct our affairs accordingly.
Good behaviour needs to be constantly reinforced - by example, by reward, by discipline and by calling out those who don't exhibit it. And the last is much harder to do than people think. It takes courage. Most people want a quiet life. Most people don't whistleblow and group loyalty is valued above the individual standing up to point out that the Emperor has no clothes etc.
One of the reasons I got a bit exercised by this case - while everyone was going football mad - was not just the similarity with what I have seen in finance (the failure to do proper due diligence before hiring someone) but the thought of poor Sarah's parents learning that their daughter's killer was known - as long as 10 years ago - as The Rapist, as some sort of bad joke or wry acknowledgment of what he was really like.
What they are suffering is unimaginable. To learn that on top of everything else feels like an unbelievably cruel twist. If that happened on my watch I would be moving heaven and earth to make sure that I never again had to be in the position of telling a grieving parent that.
The separate mask debate is a prime example of that - people just don't see why it makes sense to wear a mask as 80 different bubbles all sit in the confined space of a tram or train carriage.0 -
What is this anti white discrimination of which you speak?Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
Mr. L, aye. The police will kneel for BLM. And ignore a mob of thugs who intimidated a teacher into hiding. And their leader is keener on anti-white discrimination than rooting out the bad eggs in her own force.
I should be the sort of person who's right behind the police. But what happened in Rotherham and many other places, and the examples mentioned above, don't exactly encourage that.0 -
Does not condone the thugs who think they are big shots picking who they kick the crap out of. They should be hunted down and treated accordingly. Fact that they were ugly looking creatures did not help.Leon said:
As someone says on that thread, the least you can expect - in England, with our history of fatal crown stampedes - is someone kicking the shit out of you, if you try and break in, en masse, without a ticket in a big matchPulpstar said:
Vigourous and forthright assistance for clearly overwhelmed stewards.Leon said:Interesting context here
The original tweet has gone globally viral - 12m views. What does it show? At first glance it is England fans randomly beating up whoever
https://twitter.com/KyleJGlen/status/1414294866704617486?s=20
But it isn't. It is actually England fans kicking the shit out of "fans" who have just broken in without tickets, thus threatening a Hillsborough style stampede. That explains why some of them shout "do your fucking job" at the stewards at the end of the clip
Very different from that perspective. These so called hooligans might have saved lives
What is clear is this: there was a terrible failure of security at Wembley. We are lucky no one died
I suddenly have zero sympathy for the twits being slapped
There is more video evidence from outside the ground, revealing that is it exactly the same people who get a shoeing indoors0 -
Absolutely. Post-vaccines the latter is more important.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.
If you're an anti-vaxxer relying upon others wearing masks, perhaps buy an FFP3 mask instead?0 -
And it's why we are in the mess we are in - because most people in management are way more focussed on how do I ensure the boat isn't rocked, I deliver the success my manager wants and I get to be in a position where I can get my next promotion.Cyclefree said:
Procedures are an aid to judgment. Not a substitute for them. You need both. I could give you so many examples of people following procedures blindly leading to disaster. When that keeps happening over and over again, you need to stop and think.eek said:
Issue with that argument is we have a set of procedures - if you don't follow them you are out the door...Cyclefree said:
I agree with the last sentence. A good leader will realise this and manage accordingly. But I strongly feel that we all need to learn to exercise judgment more. Too many people - certainly in finance - rely on procedures without applying any sort of judgment at all and it can lead to some astonishingly bad decisions.darkage said:Bad people exist. Many more people are getting away with stuff, and don't get caught, @Foxy alludes to this. They can even exist in HR departments. I am not convinced there is a clear line between good and bad, or that the answer to this problem is to allow people to exercise their judgement a bit more in rooting out evil. I am more of the view expressed by a famous writer once that the line between good and evil is a shifting one that exists within all human hearts, and we should conduct our affairs accordingly.
And most people need the money enough that they won't risk doing anything about it - it's only since I got f*** you money that life became easier and most people will only get into that position very close to retirement.
But yes it is easier to be a bit bolshie if (a) you are naturally bolshie; (b) you have options .
Which is why leaders have to try and create a culture where it is ok to question and challenge without people feeling that they're putting their jobs on the line.1 -
Correction: people just don't see why it makes sense to wear a mask as 80 different bubbles all sit in the confined space of a tram or train carriage. post vaccine rollout.eek said:
I'm getting to the point where I think that while there are some people who have standards and care about other people there are an awful lot of people who really don't and are only in it for themselves.Cyclefree said:
Individually good people can find themselves in a group with a sort of ethical blindness. They see someone behaving badly and they avoid them. They try not to behave like that but they don't tell them off etc. But like bad money driving out good, bad people tend to drive out the good. Or, rather their standards tend to become dominant.Foxy said:
Oh, I agree. There is often no clear line between good and bad people, few of us are saints or devil's, most are in between. Often the bad behaviour happens because of a culture of closing ranks, rather than the earlier intervention before things get out of hand. For example if Couzens had been reprimanded by his colleagues for his misogyny rather than nicknamed "the rapist" as a canteen joke.darkage said:Bad people exist. Many more people are getting away with stuff, and don't get caught, @Foxy alludes to this. They can even exist in HR departments. I am not convinced there is a clear line between good and bad, or that the answer to this problem is to allow people to exercise their judgement a bit more in rooting out evil. I am more of the view expressed by a famous writer once that the line between good and evil is a shifting one that exists within all human hearts, and we should conduct our affairs accordingly.
Good behaviour needs to be constantly reinforced - by example, by reward, by discipline and by calling out those who don't exhibit it. And the last is much harder to do than people think. It takes courage. Most people want a quiet life. Most people don't whistleblow and group loyalty is valued above the individual standing up to point out that the Emperor has no clothes etc.
One of the reasons I got a bit exercised by this case - while everyone was going football mad - was not just the similarity with what I have seen in finance (the failure to do proper due diligence before hiring someone) but the thought of poor Sarah's parents learning that their daughter's killer was known - as long as 10 years ago - as The Rapist, as some sort of bad joke or wry acknowledgment of what he was really like.
What they are suffering is unimaginable. To learn that on top of everything else feels like an unbelievably cruel twist. If that happened on my watch I would be moving heaven and earth to make sure that I never again had to be in the position of telling a grieving parent that.
The separate mask debate is a prime example of that - people just don't see why it makes sense to wear a mask as 80 different bubbles all sit in the confined space of a tram or train carriage.
Bubbles like masks should be a concept of the past, for pre-vaccine days.0 -
The 70's were great, carefree , cheap beer , pay rises every month and not a care in the world. Fashion was very dodgy.OldKingCole said:
Feb 74 was pretty good too! Strangely, while I wasn't happy with the election result in 79 it did bring an end to an unstable time.Fishing said:
The best thing about the 70s about seven months before the end, May '79 iirc.OldKingCole said:
I don't mind waking early; I'm a natural lark. As an adult, always have been. Was very useful at one time as I could have an hour or so on the paperwork before people started wanting my presence somewhere or other!Cocky_cockney said:
I'm sorry to hear that. Waking early repeatedly is tough. I hope you can snooze during the day perhaps?OldKingCole said:
Thank you for asking. I think, TBH, getting old is the main problem. As far as I'm concerned, I've an old injury come back to bite me.Cocky_cockney said:
Are you okay?OldKingCole said:Good morning everyone.
Or is it? My wife remarked to me earlier..... we both woke early ....... that these didn't seem to be a lot going right, either for us or around us!
As for the world...... well!!!!
And, agreed, as for the world ...
I often think the 1970's was a much happier time to grow up. I know there were issues and someone will doubtless feel it's their job to list them all here and explain why it was so awful back then but for me at the time, it wasn't. There was a LOT of freedom, something I've increasingly come to value the more it has been removed.
And, on reflection, I agree, the 70's had a lot of good points, although no doubt someone here will remember the bad times.. I wasn't 'young'; I had my 40th birthday during that decade, and I remember being able to celebrate.0 -
30mph? Those were the days!Cocky_cockney said:
With respect, telling someone that they have no right to make you wear a mask is not 'aggressive' per se. It's the law. So back off slapping that adverb please.RochdalePioneers said:
This. We know there are a decent number of self-entitled people out there who will aggressively say "fuck you" to anyone suggesting they need to wear a mask once the legal requirement is dropped.eek said:
Because I he mandates it the issue moves down to conductors and other front line workers to deal with.and without any threat of a fine / police backup it's pointless.CarlottaVance said:Burnham wriggling on R4 - if mask wearing is so important why not mandate it on Manchester trams? Passes the buck to the government.
The issue is that you can't explain that in an interview as people will repeat the 5 seconds they want and remove the nuance.
Secondly, refusing to wear a mask is not 'self-entitled'. That's incredibly patronising and supercilious of you. Some people cannot wear masks for medical reasons. Others don't wish to any longer because it is damaging to their mental health. I'm one of those. So stop hectoring others.
I bet you don't stick to the 30 mph speed limit at all times in built up areas?
This is turning into a dystopian Black Mirror episode where utter hypocrites feel it's their (self-entitled?!) right to lecture others.
The difference between the 30 mph - benefit for society - example and mask wearing is that one is illegal and the other isn't, or won't be very soon.1 -
Covid seems to be spreading pretty fast despite vaccines.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely. Post-vaccines the latter is more important.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.
If you're an anti-vaxxer relying upon others wearing masks, perhaps buy an FFP3 mask instead?0 -
Yesterday we had 34000 cases of Covid, this despite 86% of the population having a first vaccine 65% being double vaccinated and the wearing of masks being mandatory. So masks are failing to protect the unvaccinated despite that number diminishing all the time. But hey masks work great.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.0 -
Mr. Roger, Cressida Dick, a month or so ago, stated she wanted the right to discriminate against white candidates for jobs.
Mr. Jonathan, the capacity to breathe and see is something I quite like. I'm not against masks, I recognise their value in this particular circumstance, but I'm not sure belittling legitimate downsides necessarily strengthens your argument.1 -
I really don't think you can claim this without the counter-example. It might be a lot worse without them.NerysHughes said:
Yesterday we had 34000 cases of Covid, this despite 86% of the population having a first vaccine 65% being double vaccinated and the wearing of masks being mandatory. So masks are failing to protect the unvaccinated despite that number diminishing all the time. But hey masks work great.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.1 -
OKC, sorry to hear that, more whisky needed as a nightcap.OldKingCole said:
Thank you for asking. I think, TBH, getting old is the main problem. As far as I'm concerned, I've an old injury come back to bite me.Cocky_cockney said:
Are you okay?OldKingCole said:Good morning everyone.
Or is it? My wife remarked to me earlier..... we both woke early ....... that these didn't seem to be a lot going right, either for us or around us!
As for the world...... well!!!!0 -
So what?Jonathan said:
Covid seems to be spreading pretty fast despite vaccines.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely. Post-vaccines the latter is more important.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.
If you're an anti-vaxxer relying upon others wearing masks, perhaps buy an FFP3 mask instead?
Deaths are not happening fast, because of vaccines.
Time to get back to normal, to ditch masks and to allow businesses like Cyclefree Jr's to earn a living.
If you want to hide away forever be my guest. Just don't expect me to join you, or to put a pathetic piece of cloth in front of my face as a piece of theatre.0 -
Don't worry it won't immediately kill you.Jonathan said:
Covid seems to be spreading pretty fast despite vaccines.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely. Post-vaccines the latter is more important.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.
If you're an anti-vaxxer relying upon others wearing masks, perhaps buy an FFP3 mask instead?
It's just a pity that Covid hasn't been around 100 years so we know what the long term consequences are? Say for instance the Covid variation of Chickenpox's Shingles...
0 -
In my mind, the middle-class distrust of the police started with speed cameras.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
Mr. L, aye. The police will kneel for BLM. And ignore a mob of thugs who intimidated a teacher into hiding. And their leader is keener on anti-white discrimination than rooting out the bad eggs in her own force.
I should be the sort of person who's right behind the police. But what happened in Rotherham and many other places, and the examples mentioned above, don't exactly encourage that.2 -
Just been whattsapped by our management.Jonathan said:
Covid seems to be spreading pretty fast despite vaccines.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely. Post-vaccines the latter is more important.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.
If you're an anti-vaxxer relying upon others wearing masks, perhaps buy an FFP3 mask instead?
My hospital has gone to OPEL level 4. 90 people in ED, 40 awaiting beds and some waiting 4 hours in ambulances last night unable to offload. Ambulances being diverted now (though nearest places are 30+ miles away).
Looks like the shit hitting the fan again. Happy Freedom Day.0 -
I agree to the point that you can try and improve the culture of organisations to discourage bad behaviour, or legitimise things that are evil or wrong through groupthink. But these tribal instincts are deep wired within us and will always return in some guise, so the job can never really be done. I don't know enough about the Couzens episode to attempt to comment on it, other than to say that what he did was terrible, and that he should be removed from society to a place where he can do no more harm. But, on the positive side, at least he was found and caught, the police surely deserve some credit for that.Cyclefree said:
Individually good people can find themselves in a group with a sort of ethical blindness. They see someone behaving badly and they avoid them. They try not to behave like that but they don't tell them off etc. But like bad money driving out good, bad people tend to drive out the good. Or, rather their standards tend to become dominant.Foxy said:
Oh, I agree. There is often no clear line between good and bad people, few of us are saints or devil's, most are in between. Often the bad behaviour happens because of a culture of closing ranks, rather than the earlier intervention before things get out of hand. For example if Couzens had been reprimanded by his colleagues for his misogyny rather than nicknamed "the rapist" as a canteen joke.darkage said:Bad people exist. Many more people are getting away with stuff, and don't get caught, @Foxy alludes to this. They can even exist in HR departments. I am not convinced there is a clear line between good and bad, or that the answer to this problem is to allow people to exercise their judgement a bit more in rooting out evil. I am more of the view expressed by a famous writer once that the line between good and evil is a shifting one that exists within all human hearts, and we should conduct our affairs accordingly.
Good behaviour needs to be constantly reinforced - by example, by reward, by discipline and by calling out those who don't exhibit it. And the last is much harder to do than people think. It takes courage. Most people want a quiet life. Most people don't whistleblow and group loyalty is valued above the individual standing up to point out that the Emperor has no clothes etc.
One of the reasons I got a bit exercised by this case - while everyone was going football mad - was not just the similarity with what I have seen in finance (the failure to do proper due diligence before hiring someone) but the thought of poor Sarah's parents learning that their daughter's killer was known - as long as 10 years ago - as The Rapist, as some sort of bad joke or wry acknowledgment of what he was really like.
What they are suffering is unimaginable. To learn that on top of everything else feels like an unbelievably cruel twist. If that happened on my watch I would be moving heaven and earth to make sure that I never again had to be in the position of telling a grieving parent that.
1 -
Among the unvaccinated.Jonathan said:
Covid seems to be spreading pretty fast despite vaccines.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely. Post-vaccines the latter is more important.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.
If you're an anti-vaxxer relying upon others wearing masks, perhaps buy an FFP3 mask instead?1 -
Any idea what proportion of them are antivaxxers who brought it on themselves?Foxy said:
Just been whattsapped by our management.Jonathan said:
Covid seems to be spreading pretty fast despite vaccines.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely. Post-vaccines the latter is more important.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.
If you're an anti-vaxxer relying upon others wearing masks, perhaps buy an FFP3 mask instead?
My hospital has gone to OPEL level 4. 90 people in ED, 40 awaiting beds and some waiting 4 hours in ambulances last night unable to offload. Ambulances being diverted now (though nearest places are 30+ miles away).
Looks like the shit hitting the fan again. Happy Freedom Day.
May sound heartless, but its true.0 -
The best response would be pointing out that the person asking is themselves wearing a flimsy mask of minimal effect and that they should wear a more effective one themselves before making requests of other people.Foxy said:
We have had posters here proudly announce that they are going to tell anyone who asks them to mask up to "f**k off". Presumably to the front line transport/waiting/shp staff who are making such requests. It's probably just the beer talking, but no need for such rudeness.DavidL said:
Why not indeed? They surely have the right to make it a condition of travel (with suitable exemptions). I don't see any incompatibility between the withdrawal of the legal regulatory framework by the government and the need for the suppliers of services to give proper consideration to the risks to their staff and the fellow users of their services.CarlottaVance said:Burnham wriggling on R4 - if mask wearing is so important why not mandate it on Manchester trams? Passes the buck to the government.
1 -
Do you think we should (can) ever go back to normal ?Foxy said:
Just been whattsapped by our management.Jonathan said:
Covid seems to be spreading pretty fast despite vaccines.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely. Post-vaccines the latter is more important.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.
If you're an anti-vaxxer relying upon others wearing masks, perhaps buy an FFP3 mask instead?
My hospital has gone to OPEL level 4. 90 people in ED, 40 awaiting beds and some waiting 4 hours in ambulances last night unable to offload. Ambulances being diverted now (though nearest places are 30+ miles away).
Looks like the shit hitting the fan again. Happy Freedom Day.
Have (any of) your colleagues who declined vaccine previously, looking at this change caused by Delta changed their minds?1 -
This is slightly ahead of England (Equivalent would be 3,200 hospitalised) - we're at 2.8kFrancisUrquhart said:NEW: Number of Americans hospitalized with COVID-19 tops 19,000, highest since early June
0 -
F1: markets just starting to go up on Ladbrokes. Remarkable that Norris is only 4 for a podium.1
-
Not so long ago there was a live debate in this country on whether to legislate against face coverings worn in public by (/imposed upon?) Muslim women. France went and did so.eek said:
I'm getting to the point where I think that while there are some people who have standards and care about other people there are an awful lot of people who really don't and are only in it for themselves.Cyclefree said:
Individually good people can find themselves in a group with a sort of ethical blindness. They see someone behaving badly and they avoid them. They try not to behave like that but they don't tell them off etc. But like bad money driving out good, bad people tend to drive out the good. Or, rather their standards tend to become dominant.Foxy said:
Oh, I agree. There is often no clear line between good and bad people, few of us are saints or devil's, most are in between. Often the bad behaviour happens because of a culture of closing ranks, rather than the earlier intervention before things get out of hand. For example if Couzens had been reprimanded by his colleagues for his misogyny rather than nicknamed "the rapist" as a canteen joke.darkage said:Bad people exist. Many more people are getting away with stuff, and don't get caught, @Foxy alludes to this. They can even exist in HR departments. I am not convinced there is a clear line between good and bad, or that the answer to this problem is to allow people to exercise their judgement a bit more in rooting out evil. I am more of the view expressed by a famous writer once that the line between good and evil is a shifting one that exists within all human hearts, and we should conduct our affairs accordingly.
Good behaviour needs to be constantly reinforced - by example, by reward, by discipline and by calling out those who don't exhibit it. And the last is much harder to do than people think. It takes courage. Most people want a quiet life. Most people don't whistleblow and group loyalty is valued above the individual standing up to point out that the Emperor has no clothes etc.
One of the reasons I got a bit exercised by this case - while everyone was going football mad - was not just the similarity with what I have seen in finance (the failure to do proper due diligence before hiring someone) but the thought of poor Sarah's parents learning that their daughter's killer was known - as long as 10 years ago - as The Rapist, as some sort of bad joke or wry acknowledgment of what he was really like.
What they are suffering is unimaginable. To learn that on top of everything else feels like an unbelievably cruel twist. If that happened on my watch I would be moving heaven and earth to make sure that I never again had to be in the position of telling a grieving parent that.
The separate mask debate is a prime example of that - people just don't see why it makes sense to wear a mask as 80 different bubbles all sit in the confined space of a tram or train carriage.
It’s extraordinary how quickly and how far the Overton window has shifted, with such a large number of people no longer placing value on human facial expression. All for a fairly loosely defined and at this point probably marginal net benefit to public health.
Human brains are wired to recognise faces in all around them. Clouds, hills on Mars, bowls of porridge. Recognition of faces is an integral part of social development. It’s key to maintaining healthy and happy social interaction. I find it extraordinary how easily some people will brush this all aside.0 -
It’s a US gesture with different meaning hereTaz said:
How is it supporting Marxism. Just how does these footballers making a stance against prejudice somehow mean they are supporting Marxism. I don’t see it. I suspect it’s an excuse for some to condemn the gesture.Leon said:
But it is supporting Marxism. BLM is a vile Marxist organisation that seeks to sow racial hatred across the West, and it is working. As we seeTaz said:
But in those terms she’s right. They do have a right to boo. Should they so wish. No laws are being broken. It’s just a bit daft to boo it and claim it’s supporting Marxism.Scott_xP said:WATCH: A reminder what Home Secretary said to me last month around taking the knee
Priti Patel said those involved are participating in “gesture politics” and when asked if England fans had a right to boo said “that's a choice for them, quite frankly”
https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1404407912890519552/video/1
I wouldn’t boo what is a well meaning gesture against a pervasive evil in society and if it is gesture politics it is a good gesture.
Britain, to me, is now palpably more racist than it was, say, 5 years ago. America is probably much worse (dunno, haven't been there, but the polls say Yes)
In Marxist terms this may be a Result: you have to break down a society before you can reorder it. But for most this is a disaster. Meanwhile China and Russia are cheering it all on, and probably enabling it
Taking the knee supports anti racism not the small fringe BLM political party.
(Take a break/slow things down vs submission)0 -
You had me until the piece of clothPhilip_Thompson said:
So what?Jonathan said:
Covid seems to be spreading pretty fast despite vaccines.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely. Post-vaccines the latter is more important.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.
If you're an anti-vaxxer relying upon others wearing masks, perhaps buy an FFP3 mask instead?
Deaths are not happening fast, because of vaccines.
Time to get back to normal, to ditch masks and to allow businesses like Cyclefree Jr's to earn a living.
If you want to hide away forever be my guest. Just don't expect me to join you, or to put a pathetic piece of cloth in front of my face as a piece of theatre.
Other parts of the world live with it, if we have to so be it.0 -
That’s what’s seen increasingly across huge swathes of the public and private sector. Epitomised by “Computer Says No”, people on the front line interested only in ticking boxes rather than exercising judgement, and the management not empowering people to exercse judgement either.Cyclefree said:
I agree with the last sentence. A good leader will realise this and manage accordingly. But I strongly feel that we all need to learn to exercise judgment more. Too many people - certainly in finance - rely on procedures without applying any sort of judgment at all and it can lead to some astonishingly bad decisions.darkage said:Bad people exist. Many more people are getting away with stuff, and don't get caught, @Foxy alludes to this. They can even exist in HR departments. I am not convinced there is a clear line between good and bad, or that the answer to this problem is to allow people to exercise their judgement a bit more in rooting out evil. I am more of the view expressed by a famous writer once that the line between good and evil is a shifting one that exists within all human hearts, and we should conduct our affairs accordingly.
1 -
We don't know that - especially given the fact the current infection / hospital numbers don't exactly correlate with eariler infection / hospital numbers.MaxPB said:
Among the unvaccinated.Jonathan said:
Covid seems to be spreading pretty fast despite vaccines.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely. Post-vaccines the latter is more important.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.
If you're an anti-vaxxer relying upon others wearing masks, perhaps buy an FFP3 mask instead?
I suspect an awful lot of people currently catching Covid are doubly vaccinated but are getting milder symptoms.1 -
The UK’s first testing megalab - the Rosalind Franklin laboratory in Royal Leamington Spa has opened and will be processing hundreds of thousands of COVID-19 samples every day to rapidly detect new variants and help stop the spread of the virus.
As part of the UK’s NHS Test and Trace network, the laboratory is the biggest of its kind in the UK and will use cutting-edge technology to process even more tests and adopt the pioneering new genotype assay testing to quickly identify variants of concern and new mutations. This will help the UK’s disease detectives take action to supress outbreaks as society reopens, using tools such as surge testing.
The new state-of-the-art laboratory is at the heart of the UK Health Security Agency’s (UKHSA) plans for the next part of our battle against the pandemic. In recognition of her outstanding contribution to our current understanding of genomic sequencing – one of our weapons in the fight against COVID-19 – the laboratory is named after Rosalind Franklin.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-megalab-opens-to-bolster-fight-against-covid-191 -
Trouble is that masks have a similar logic structure to other Tragedy of the Commons problems.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.
If I wear a mask, it inconveniences me a bit. I benefit a bit from not wearing it.
But most of the benefit of mask wearing accrues to other people. They don't catch the Covid that I may unknowingly spread, despite being double-jabbed. And whilst the chances of me doing that are low, my understanding is that they're not zero.
It's where libertarianism falls down as a philosophy.2 -
Going for a Gettysberg address vibe there, I see.Philip_Thompson said:
So what?Jonathan said:
Covid seems to be spreading pretty fast despite vaccines.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely. Post-vaccines the latter is more important.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.
If you're an anti-vaxxer relying upon others wearing masks, perhaps buy an FFP3 mask instead?
Deaths are not happening fast, because of vaccines.
Time to get back to normal, to ditch masks and to allow businesses like Cyclefree Jr's to earn a living.
If you want to hide away forever be my guest. Just don't expect me to join you, or to put a pathetic piece of cloth in front of my face as a piece of theatre.0 -
Is it just me or does data seem harder to decipher. Or perhaps I have just given up trying to figure out.
I still think we should have unlocked as originally promised last month. We can’t encumber society forever.1 -
Scottish Lib Dems.
If not Cole-Hamilton, then who?0 -
Can't the vaccinated be vectors spreading the virus? Even if they are unaffected?MaxPB said:
Among the unvaccinated.Jonathan said:
Covid seems to be spreading pretty fast despite vaccines.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely. Post-vaccines the latter is more important.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.
If you're an anti-vaxxer relying upon others wearing masks, perhaps buy an FFP3 mask instead?
0 -
I expect a lot of people will approaches masks on public transport in a situation dependent way. Packed bus or tube train yes. Half empty carriage, no. 11pm on way home from pub. Nobody.2
-
But we don't have to. We have vaccines, other parts of the world don't.Floater said:
You had me until the piece of clothPhilip_Thompson said:
So what?Jonathan said:
Covid seems to be spreading pretty fast despite vaccines.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely. Post-vaccines the latter is more important.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.
If you're an anti-vaxxer relying upon others wearing masks, perhaps buy an FFP3 mask instead?
Deaths are not happening fast, because of vaccines.
Time to get back to normal, to ditch masks and to allow businesses like Cyclefree Jr's to earn a living.
If you want to hide away forever be my guest. Just don't expect me to join you, or to put a pathetic piece of cloth in front of my face as a piece of theatre.
Other parts of the world live with it, if we have to so be it.0 -
This, in a nutshell, is the weakness of a discretionary public health policy during a pandemic.
Even those who prepared to wear a mask may now just think, what's the point? https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/14148482429285253141 -
What I find surprising is the high level of approval the police still have in opinion polls.DavidL said:
Very true and as @Cyclefree has pointed out before Cressida Dick was a truly bizarre appointment for an organisation that seems to find it impossible to address its repeated and multiple failings or allocate responsibility for them. She epitomises that tendency so expecting her to do anything about it is, well, optimistic.Sandpit said:Excellent piece, as usual @Cyclefree. There’s something rotten about the Met, it’s one problem after another. The fish rots from the head.
I think that this is an increasing crisis in our country. Our police forces are becoming more remote, more apart, less trustworthy and less respected. We have the same problem in Scotland where the frankly laughably low level of accountability achieved in regional forces has disappeared completely under the behemoth that is Police Scotland. The political classes have lost faith in them following the disgraceful plebgate events. The middle classes have lost faith in them. We are appalled by the Rotherham saga, this Everard murder and a never ending drip feed of negative stories connected with the police neglecting so many kinds of crime in favour of politically charged nonsense.
These are the seeds from which defund police movements started in America. It could happen here too unless someone gets a grip. It could happen to the Met. Just maybe, it should.0 -
What the we do to deserve a Home Secretary as vile and thick as Priti Patel?0
-
I do love that. In your first paragraph you have to ask the question, in the second the answer magically appears and is what you want it to be. In the real world we are not nearly there, Daddy, just because you want us to be nearly there, and the government/scientists are not responsible for the emergence of delta any more than daddy is responsible for the multi car pile up ahead which has just added hours to the journey.Philip_Thompson said:
Any idea what proportion of them are antivaxxers who brought it on themselves?Foxy said:
Just been whattsapped by our management.Jonathan said:
Covid seems to be spreading pretty fast despite vaccines.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely. Post-vaccines the latter is more important.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.
If you're an anti-vaxxer relying upon others wearing masks, perhaps buy an FFP3 mask instead?
My hospital has gone to OPEL level 4. 90 people in ED, 40 awaiting beds and some waiting 4 hours in ambulances last night unable to offload. Ambulances being diverted now (though nearest places are 30+ miles away).
Looks like the shit hitting the fan again. Happy Freedom Day.
May sound heartless, but its true.0 -
But the other people have been offered a vaccine now.Stuartinromford said:
Trouble is that masks have a similar logic structure to other Tragedy of the Commons problems.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.
If I wear a mask, it inconveniences me a bit. I benefit a bit from not wearing it.
But most of the benefit of mask wearing accrues to other people. They don't catch the Covid that I may unknowingly spread, despite being double-jabbed. And whilst the chances of me doing that are low, my understanding is that they're not zero.
It's where libertarianism falls down as a philosophy.
If they turned it down, that's on them. 🤷♂️0 -
My house flooded yesterday thanks to all the rain. 2 inch deep water throughout the lower ground floorBenpointer said:If anyone needs cheering up part 2:
The long range weather forecast is settled warm weather for the UK for the next month.0 -
Almost 1m French people made vaccination appointments after President Macron announced in a TV address last night that restaurants, cinemas, long distant trains etc would only be open to people with health passports from August.
https://www.francetvinfo.fr/sante/maladie/coronavirus/direct-covid-19-la-catalogne-et-valence-durcissent-leurs-restrictions_4700063.html#xtor=CS2-765-[autres]-0 -
PARIS (Reuters) -The developers of Russia’s Sputnik V coronavirus vaccine have repeatedly failed to provide data that regulators deem to be standard requirements of the drug approval process, according to five people with knowledge of European efforts to assess the drug, providing new insight into the country’s struggle to win foreign acceptance of its product.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-sputnik-regulator/exclusive-european-efforts-to-assess-russias-sputnik-v-vaccine-stymied-by-data-gaps-idUSKBN2EJ0ET0 -
I took the train into London from the sticks for the Quarter Final. There was a quite notable M25 effect with compliance. Just about no one getting on from the coast to the M25 put one on. As soon as you hit the stations at and inside the M25, there was 100% compliance from the people waiting on the platforms.alex_ said:I expect a lot of people will approaches masks on public transport in a situation dependent way. Packed bus or tube train yes. Half empty carriage, no. 11pm on way home from pub. Nobody.
Intriguingly this is inversely correlated with vaccine uptake.1 -
Here's the daily % change in bed occupancy that gets us to the current 2.8k beds.Pulpstar said:
This is slightly ahead of England (Equivalent would be 3,200 hospitalised) - we're at 2.8kFrancisUrquhart said:NEW: Number of Americans hospitalized with COVID-19 tops 19,000, highest since early June
1 -
And you self-insured as I recall?Charles said:
My house flooded yesterday thanks to all the rain. 2 inch deep water throughout the lower ground floorBenpointer said:If anyone needs cheering up part 2:
The long range weather forecast is settled warm weather for the UK for the next month.
0 -
I wouldn't throw your mask away just yet to be honest.Philip_Thompson said:
Correction: people just don't see why it makes sense to wear a mask as 80 different bubbles all sit in the confined space of a tram or train carriage. post vaccine rollout.eek said:
I'm getting to the point where I think that while there are some people who have standards and care about other people there are an awful lot of people who really don't and are only in it for themselves.Cyclefree said:
Individually good people can find themselves in a group with a sort of ethical blindness. They see someone behaving badly and they avoid them. They try not to behave like that but they don't tell them off etc. But like bad money driving out good, bad people tend to drive out the good. Or, rather their standards tend to become dominant.Foxy said:
Oh, I agree. There is often no clear line between good and bad people, few of us are saints or devil's, most are in between. Often the bad behaviour happens because of a culture of closing ranks, rather than the earlier intervention before things get out of hand. For example if Couzens had been reprimanded by his colleagues for his misogyny rather than nicknamed "the rapist" as a canteen joke.darkage said:Bad people exist. Many more people are getting away with stuff, and don't get caught, @Foxy alludes to this. They can even exist in HR departments. I am not convinced there is a clear line between good and bad, or that the answer to this problem is to allow people to exercise their judgement a bit more in rooting out evil. I am more of the view expressed by a famous writer once that the line between good and evil is a shifting one that exists within all human hearts, and we should conduct our affairs accordingly.
Good behaviour needs to be constantly reinforced - by example, by reward, by discipline and by calling out those who don't exhibit it. And the last is much harder to do than people think. It takes courage. Most people want a quiet life. Most people don't whistleblow and group loyalty is valued above the individual standing up to point out that the Emperor has no clothes etc.
One of the reasons I got a bit exercised by this case - while everyone was going football mad - was not just the similarity with what I have seen in finance (the failure to do proper due diligence before hiring someone) but the thought of poor Sarah's parents learning that their daughter's killer was known - as long as 10 years ago - as The Rapist, as some sort of bad joke or wry acknowledgment of what he was really like.
What they are suffering is unimaginable. To learn that on top of everything else feels like an unbelievably cruel twist. If that happened on my watch I would be moving heaven and earth to make sure that I never again had to be in the position of telling a grieving parent that.
The separate mask debate is a prime example of that - people just don't see why it makes sense to wear a mask as 80 different bubbles all sit in the confined space of a tram or train carriage.
Bubbles like masks should be a concept of the past, for pre-vaccine days.
Pretty sure you'll be mandated to wear it again this winter.0 -
The clinically vulnerable. Anti-vaxxers.
Best that the two groups stay apart to protect the former.
So which group has been told to modify their behaviour?
Yep, the selfish get to carry on with impunity.1 -
I believe they can but the period they spend spreading it may be shorter. One factor for the current growth may be (probably is) that people don't know they have Covid and so continue doing what they were doing regardless..geoffw said:
Can't the vaccinated be vectors spreading the virus? Even if they are unaffected?MaxPB said:
Among the unvaccinated.Jonathan said:
Covid seems to be spreading pretty fast despite vaccines.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely. Post-vaccines the latter is more important.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.
If you're an anti-vaxxer relying upon others wearing masks, perhaps buy an FFP3 mask instead?1 -
Offer them a Jeremy Corbyn government as the alternative.murali_s said:What the we do to deserve a Home Secretary as vile and thick as Priti Patel?
2 -
The legal mandate to date was really by popular compliance. They can go stuff themselves if they think I’ll wear one again, unless and until we meet a new novel virus.rottenborough said:
I wouldn't throw your mask away just yet to be honest.Philip_Thompson said:
Correction: people just don't see why it makes sense to wear a mask as 80 different bubbles all sit in the confined space of a tram or train carriage. post vaccine rollout.eek said:
I'm getting to the point where I think that while there are some people who have standards and care about other people there are an awful lot of people who really don't and are only in it for themselves.Cyclefree said:
Individually good people can find themselves in a group with a sort of ethical blindness. They see someone behaving badly and they avoid them. They try not to behave like that but they don't tell them off etc. But like bad money driving out good, bad people tend to drive out the good. Or, rather their standards tend to become dominant.Foxy said:
Oh, I agree. There is often no clear line between good and bad people, few of us are saints or devil's, most are in between. Often the bad behaviour happens because of a culture of closing ranks, rather than the earlier intervention before things get out of hand. For example if Couzens had been reprimanded by his colleagues for his misogyny rather than nicknamed "the rapist" as a canteen joke.darkage said:Bad people exist. Many more people are getting away with stuff, and don't get caught, @Foxy alludes to this. They can even exist in HR departments. I am not convinced there is a clear line between good and bad, or that the answer to this problem is to allow people to exercise their judgement a bit more in rooting out evil. I am more of the view expressed by a famous writer once that the line between good and evil is a shifting one that exists within all human hearts, and we should conduct our affairs accordingly.
Good behaviour needs to be constantly reinforced - by example, by reward, by discipline and by calling out those who don't exhibit it. And the last is much harder to do than people think. It takes courage. Most people want a quiet life. Most people don't whistleblow and group loyalty is valued above the individual standing up to point out that the Emperor has no clothes etc.
One of the reasons I got a bit exercised by this case - while everyone was going football mad - was not just the similarity with what I have seen in finance (the failure to do proper due diligence before hiring someone) but the thought of poor Sarah's parents learning that their daughter's killer was known - as long as 10 years ago - as The Rapist, as some sort of bad joke or wry acknowledgment of what he was really like.
What they are suffering is unimaginable. To learn that on top of everything else feels like an unbelievably cruel twist. If that happened on my watch I would be moving heaven and earth to make sure that I never again had to be in the position of telling a grieving parent that.
The separate mask debate is a prime example of that - people just don't see why it makes sense to wear a mask as 80 different bubbles all sit in the confined space of a tram or train carriage.
Bubbles like masks should be a concept of the past, for pre-vaccine days.
Pretty sure you'll be mandated to wear it again this winter.0 -
And vaccines are just like an invisibility cloak, aren't they, or a covidibus immunibus spell?Philip_Thompson said:
But we don't have to. We have vaccines, other parts of the world don't.Floater said:
You had me until the piece of clothPhilip_Thompson said:
So what?Jonathan said:
Covid seems to be spreading pretty fast despite vaccines.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely. Post-vaccines the latter is more important.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.
If you're an anti-vaxxer relying upon others wearing masks, perhaps buy an FFP3 mask instead?
Deaths are not happening fast, because of vaccines.
Time to get back to normal, to ditch masks and to allow businesses like Cyclefree Jr's to earn a living.
If you want to hide away forever be my guest. Just don't expect me to join you, or to put a pathetic piece of cloth in front of my face as a piece of theatre.
Other parts of the world live with it, if we have to so be it.0 -
Offer Diane Abbott as the alternative.murali_s said:What the we do to deserve a Home Secretary as vile and thick as Priti Patel?
2 -
Big moves in France. They won't pay health workers who refuse the jab
“From September 15, if you’re a carer and you’re not vaccinated, you will no longer be able to work and you won’t be paid any more,” Olivier Véran says. He noted that carers were already vaccinated for Hep-B.
https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/14148521302052085841 -
As usual a very sensible post David. On a day to day basis I don't intend to wear a mask but if requested will do so by a shop, venue, transport provider.DavidL said:
Why not indeed? They surely have the right to make it a condition of travel (with suitable exemptions). I don't see any incompatibility between the withdrawal of the legal regulatory framework by the government and the need for the suppliers of services to give proper consideration to the risks to their staff and the fellow users of their services.CarlottaVance said:Burnham wriggling on R4 - if mask wearing is so important why not mandate it on Manchester trams? Passes the buck to the government.
0 -
Aged 12- 17 nope. Unable to be vaccinated nope.Philip_Thompson said:
But the other people have been offered a vaccine now.Stuartinromford said:
Trouble is that masks have a similar logic structure to other Tragedy of the Commons problems.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.
If I wear a mask, it inconveniences me a bit. I benefit a bit from not wearing it.
But most of the benefit of mask wearing accrues to other people. They don't catch the Covid that I may unknowingly spread, despite being double-jabbed. And whilst the chances of me doing that are low, my understanding is that they're not zero.
It's where libertarianism falls down as a philosophy.
If they turned it down, that's on them. 🤷♂️
And again - anyone know what the long term effects of Covid are? Are we 100% sure it doesn't have a Shingles like second attack phase 30 years hence...1 -
12% of people in hospital are double jabbed and 88% are unvaccinated. We know that kids and younger people don't really go to hospital for this either. That 88% is largely going to be people who refused the vaccine aged 50+.eek said:
We don't know that - especially given the fact the current infection / hospital numbers don't exactly correlate with eariler infection / hospital numbers.MaxPB said:
Among the unvaccinated.Jonathan said:
Covid seems to be spreading pretty fast despite vaccines.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely. Post-vaccines the latter is more important.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.
If you're an anti-vaxxer relying upon others wearing masks, perhaps buy an FFP3 mask instead?
I suspect an awful lot of people currently catching Covid are doubly vaccinated but are getting milder symptoms.
The vaccines currently yield a reduction of 97% in hospital numbers for double jabbed people. Someone over 50 has got around a 9% chance of being hospitalised by COVID, now they have a 0.24% chance of going to hospital. The same as they'd have for the flu or any number of infections.
Once again, if double jabbed people can catch it but experience few to no symptoms is it something worth destroying the country over? In about 4 weeks all adults who want to be should be double jabbed. We're reopening before that to get our exit wave out before autumn. The exit wave is primarily going to hit the unvaccinated by choice. Those hospitalisations are going to happen whether we reopen in July, August or October or even April next year.
Finally, anyone who wants to can go and buy an FFP3 mask. If you feel uncomfortable for a while in the new/old normal then go and buy a pack of them. They aren't expensive and give very good two way protection. That is your responsibility. In a post vaccine world individual responsibility must be returned. Collective responsibility only made sense before vaccines.3 -
So a administration led by a disingenuous racist fat fornicator is better?CarlottaVance said:
Offer them a Jeremy Corbyn government as the alternative.murali_s said:What the we do to deserve a Home Secretary as vile and thick as Priti Patel?
0 -
What are you proposing?SandyRentool said:The clinically vulnerable. Anti-vaxxers.
Best that the two groups stay apart to protect the former.
So which group has been told to modify their behaviour?
Yep, the selfish get to carry on with impunity.
Compulsory anti-vaccination?
The reality is that we have very high vax rates in this country - a tremendous asset which we should now leverage to unlock, unlock, unlock.
I am ok with mandatory masks on public transport if it makes people feel safer, but pretty much everything else should go.1 -
Would that be legal?Foxy said:
I will be telling any patient or relative who abuses our reception or nursing staff to go away. They will need to apologise and comply if they want to be seen.Cocky_cockney said:
I'm teetotal. And yes I will tell anyone who insists I wear a mask to fuck off.Foxy said:
We have had posters here proudly announce that they are going to tell anyone who asks them to mask up to "f**k off". Presumably to the front line transport/waiting/shp staff who are making such requests. It's probably just the beer talking, but no need for such rudeness.DavidL said:
Why not indeed? They surely have the right to make it a condition of travel (with suitable exemptions). I don't see any incompatibility between the withdrawal of the legal regulatory framework by the government and the need for the suppliers of services to give proper consideration to the risks to their staff and the fellow users of their services.CarlottaVance said:Burnham wriggling on R4 - if mask wearing is so important why not mandate it on Manchester trams? Passes the buck to the government.
0 -
If Delta is as scary as some here would contend, they should stop buggering about and legally mandate vaccination for adults. We can then be done and dusted with this in weeks.Scott_xP said:Big moves in France. They won't pay health workers who refuse the jab
“From September 15, if you’re a carer and you’re not vaccinated, you will no longer be able to work and you won’t be paid any more,” Olivier Véran says. He noted that carers were already vaccinated for Hep-B.
https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/14148521302052085840 -
I can see that people have been dismissive of the discomfort (for me it goes beyond that, but I'm not explaining in detail again) that others feel when wearing masks, but the upshot for me is that, if wearing masks is still required in places then I will do everything I can to avoid going to those places.Stuartinromford said:
Trouble is that masks have a similar logic structure to other Tragedy of the Commons problems.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.
If I wear a mask, it inconveniences me a bit. I benefit a bit from not wearing it.
But most of the benefit of mask wearing accrues to other people. They don't catch the Covid that I may unknowingly spread, despite being double-jabbed. And whilst the chances of me doing that are low, my understanding is that they're not zero.
It's where libertarianism falls down as a philosophy.
I will not travel on public transport. I will not go to cafes or restaurants. I will not go to shops. I will not go to the cinema or the library.
I guess that cuts down on transmission of Covid a bit more, but I also hope that it shows you that I am serious when I say that indefinite mask-wearing is not cost-free.2 -
The "its true" of the second paragraph is not an answer to the first, its saying that the unvaccinated "brought it on themselves" is true.IshmaelZ said:
I do love that. In your first paragraph you have to ask the question, in the second the answer magically appears and is what you want it to be. In the real world we are not nearly there, Daddy, just because you want us to be nearly there, and the government/scientists are not responsible for the emergence of delta any more than daddy is responsible for the multi car pile up ahead which has just added hours to the journey.Philip_Thompson said:
Any idea what proportion of them are antivaxxers who brought it on themselves?Foxy said:
Just been whattsapped by our management.Jonathan said:
Covid seems to be spreading pretty fast despite vaccines.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely. Post-vaccines the latter is more important.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.
If you're an anti-vaxxer relying upon others wearing masks, perhaps buy an FFP3 mask instead?
My hospital has gone to OPEL level 4. 90 people in ED, 40 awaiting beds and some waiting 4 hours in ambulances last night unable to offload. Ambulances being diverted now (though nearest places are 30+ miles away).
Looks like the shit hitting the fan again. Happy Freedom Day.
May sound heartless, but its true.
If you're an unvaccinated adult who gets hospitalised, especially an unvaccinated over 40 adult who should be second jabbed by now, then yes you have brought it on yourselves.
As for the answer to the first paragraph, most reports say circa 90% of admissions are not double-jabbed which considering all over 40s should be now and given the age profile of admissions originally is remarkable.0 -
Telegraph columnist saying that we are basically going to continue with restrictive measures because the NHS is run by the state and we have got into a trap where it must be protected at all costs.
Presumably this is a guide to what some in the Tory right are thinking this week.
"The NHS has become Britain’s all-consuming project, the millstone around its neck and the cloying source of confected national pride. Its hold over the country is so powerful that even a so-called libertarian Conservative PM decided this week to risk sacrificing our ordinary freedoms rather than dare to reform it."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/07/12/boris-johnson-has-lost-nerve-condemned-us-covid-no-mans-land/0 -
Sadly, awfully, horribly for this country - yes.murali_s said:
So a administration led by a disingenuous racist fat fornicator is better?CarlottaVance said:
Offer them a Jeremy Corbyn government as the alternative.murali_s said:What the we do to deserve a Home Secretary as vile and thick as Priti Patel?
Although I personally don’t think Boris is racist.
He has pretty much every other vice, though.0 -
@Cyclefree a friend resigned from the compliance department of a major investment bank that prided itself on its “ethical “ credentials, because his bosses expected him to ignore breaches of their professed standards. As he put it, if you are truly ethical, you don’t need to loudly proclaim the fact.4
-
Clearly the electorate thought so.....but it wasn't the Tories that offered them Corbyn, was it?murali_s said:
So a administration led by a disingenuous racist fat fornicator is better?CarlottaVance said:
Offer them a Jeremy Corbyn government as the alternative.murali_s said:What the we do to deserve a Home Secretary as vile and thick as Priti Patel?
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My comment was based on the fact you said Covid was only spreading fast among the unvaccinated - which you've now shown isn't true.MaxPB said:
12% of people in hospital are double jabbed and 88% are unvaccinated. We know that kids and younger people don't really go to hospital for this either. That 88% is largely going to be people who refused the vaccine aged 50+.eek said:
We don't know that - especially given the fact the current infection / hospital numbers don't exactly correlate with eariler infection / hospital numbers.MaxPB said:
Among the unvaccinated.Jonathan said:
Covid seems to be spreading pretty fast despite vaccines.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely. Post-vaccines the latter is more important.Jonathan said:In one column masks reduce the transmission of covid.
On the other column, they steam up your glasses, you get a bit hot, some feel a bit constrained and you look silly.
No brainier.
If you're an anti-vaxxer relying upon others wearing masks, perhaps buy an FFP3 mask instead?
I suspect an awful lot of people currently catching Covid are doubly vaccinated but are getting milder symptoms.
The vaccines currently yield a reduction of 97% in hospital numbers for double jabbed people. Someone over 50 has got around a 9% chance of being hospitalised by COVID, now they have a 0.24% chance of going to hospital. The same as they'd have for the flu or any number of infections.
Once again, if double jabbed people can catch it but experience few to no symptoms is it something worth destroying the country over? In about 4 weeks all adults who want to be should be double jabbed. We're reopening before that to get our exit wave out before autumn. The exit wave is primarily going to hit the unvaccinated by choice. Those hospitalisations are going to happen whether we reopen in July, August or October or even April next year.
Finally, anyone who wants to can go and buy an FFP3 mask. If you feel uncomfortable for a while in the new/old normal then go and buy a pack of them. They aren't expensive and give very good two way protection. That is your responsibility. In a post vaccine world individual responsibility must be returned. Collective responsibility only made sense before vaccines.
What you've shown is Covid resulting in hospital admissions is no longer that common among the vaccinated - although it would be nice to have more up to figures to confirm your 12% fully vaccinated figure (because we really need to know if that figure is getting better or worse over time).
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Welcome. Do come againBlancheLivermore said:@Cyclefree thank you for this. I saw it from a link on twitter earlier and have recommended it to some friends and colleagues who have all been similarly impressed by your summary of this appalling mess.
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Hasn't it long been the case that non-critical care can be withheld from patients committing verbal or physical abuse?TOPPING said:
Would that be legal?Foxy said:
I will be telling any patient or relative who abuses our reception or nursing staff to go away. They will need to apologise and comply if they want to be seen.Cocky_cockney said:
I'm teetotal. And yes I will tell anyone who insists I wear a mask to fuck off.Foxy said:
We have had posters here proudly announce that they are going to tell anyone who asks them to mask up to "f**k off". Presumably to the front line transport/waiting/shp staff who are making such requests. It's probably just the beer talking, but no need for such rudeness.DavidL said:
Why not indeed? They surely have the right to make it a condition of travel (with suitable exemptions). I don't see any incompatibility between the withdrawal of the legal regulatory framework by the government and the need for the suppliers of services to give proper consideration to the risks to their staff and the fellow users of their services.CarlottaVance said:Burnham wriggling on R4 - if mask wearing is so important why not mandate it on Manchester trams? Passes the buck to the government.
Not sure whether it (withholding care) ever happens much in practice.0
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