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If Not Now, When? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited July 12 in General
imageIf Not Now, When? – politicalbetting.com

On Friday, Wayne Couzens, a former Metropolitan Police officer and member of the Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection Squad, authorised to carry a firearm, pleaded guilty to the murder of Sarah Everard earlier this year. He had earlier pleaded guilty to her kidnap and rape. The story of what he did to her is harrowing.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 6,790
    !sr
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 6,739
    ?cg
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 12,368
    THird! And thank you.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,183
    e^(ipi)=-1
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 38,885
    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    Brom said:

    dixiedean said:

    England taking the knee forced me to make racist remarks.

    I doubt that, but England taking the knee helping the fight against racism? It would be hard to say it has.

    Perhaps those fighting hard to take a knee/stop taking a knee should work together and consider some substantial action that can make a difference, particularly against social media platform abuse rather than reaffirming their entrenched stances on a fairly hollow gesture politics debate.

    So it would appear, these players face horrific online racism all the time. Which largely goes unremarked and unreported upon. I certainly hadn’t heard how common place it was. The argument over the knee has led to this abuse now being thrown into the bright lights.

    I wasn’t a fan of the gesture and the perceived politicisation of sport. But I find myself today having changed my mind. Good for them.
    Do they generally face online racism? I am happy to be persuaded. I am in a mind-changing mood
    I would imagine they all get absurd amounts of abuse of all kinds on-line.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 1,006
    Thought this thread was about the football 👿
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 62,763

    Thought this thread was about the football 👿

    I thought it was going to be about "freedom day"....
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 18,926
    When in the Civil Nuclear Constabulary protecting Sellafield, his nickname among colleagues was “The Rapist” because his behaviour towards women colleagues was so creepy.

    This is reminiscent of the Yorkshire Ripper. Other truck drivers used to refer to him as the Ripper as a joke.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 58,366

    Thought this thread was about the football 👿

    I thought it was going to be about "freedom day"....
    I thought it was going to be about Scottish Independence.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 14,593

    I thought it was going to be about "freedom day"....

    Same data but on a log axis - now you can see that hospital admissions are now growing at almost the same rate as cases.
    Roughly doubling every 11 days.
    V unsettling. Especially given cases have further to rise. So what next?
    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1414658909239918595/photo/1


  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    Brom said:

    dixiedean said:

    England taking the knee forced me to make racist remarks.

    I doubt that, but England taking the knee helping the fight against racism? It would be hard to say it has.

    Perhaps those fighting hard to take a knee/stop taking a knee should work together and consider some substantial action that can make a difference, particularly against social media platform abuse rather than reaffirming their entrenched stances on a fairly hollow gesture politics debate.

    So it would appear, these players face horrific online racism all the time. Which largely goes unremarked and unreported upon. I certainly hadn’t heard how common place it was. The argument over the knee has led to this abuse now being thrown into the bright lights.

    I wasn’t a fan of the gesture and the perceived politicisation of sport. But I find myself today having changed my mind. Good for them.
    Do they generally face online racism? I am happy to be persuaded. I am in a mind-changing mood
    I would imagine they all get absurd amounts of abuse of all kinds on-line.
    Makes you wonder what they gain from it, obviously they are financially rewarded but for most footballers like Rashford or Kane they have a company to compose all their social media posts for them. It would be quite easy for them to just turn the comments off, a lot of footballers just use social media to spread their brand rather than interact with random weirdos anyway.

    If they genuinely used their profiles to boycott social media Im sure the companies would take action immediately, so not sure why this hasn’t happened yet.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 216
    As at March 2021 there were 150 serving Met officers with criminal convictions (drugs, damage, assault and firearms). Representing the population is desirable. Having law-enforcers who are not law-breakers is essential.

    Astonishing.

    Endless investigations into previous mistakes will do little to change a poor culture if those at the top – her and her senior team – do not accept the need for change.

    And if they don’t now, after everything that has happened, will they ever?


    Given the first remark, probably not. Otherwise the aforementioned 150 persons would all have been sacked.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 20,181
    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    Brom said:

    dixiedean said:

    England taking the knee forced me to make racist remarks.

    I doubt that, but England taking the knee helping the fight against racism? It would be hard to say it has.

    Perhaps those fighting hard to take a knee/stop taking a knee should work together and consider some substantial action that can make a difference, particularly against social media platform abuse rather than reaffirming their entrenched stances on a fairly hollow gesture politics debate.

    So it would appear, these players face horrific online racism all the time. Which largely goes unremarked and unreported upon. I certainly hadn’t heard how common place it was. The argument over the knee has led to this abuse now being thrown into the bright lights.

    I wasn’t a fan of the gesture and the perceived politicisation of sport. But I find myself today having changed my mind. Good for them.
    Do they generally face online racism? I am happy to be persuaded. I am in a mind-changing mood
    I would imagine they all get absurd amounts of abuse of all kinds on-line.
    Given the links between football matches and increases in cases of domestic violence, maybe these young men might want to consider also raising awareness of the horrors of domestic violence and why it should be taken seriously. After all, it's not as if footballers' attitude to women has always been impeccably gentleman-like.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 12,368
    Brom said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    Brom said:

    dixiedean said:

    England taking the knee forced me to make racist remarks.

    I doubt that, but England taking the knee helping the fight against racism? It would be hard to say it has.

    Perhaps those fighting hard to take a knee/stop taking a knee should work together and consider some substantial action that can make a difference, particularly against social media platform abuse rather than reaffirming their entrenched stances on a fairly hollow gesture politics debate.

    So it would appear, these players face horrific online racism all the time. Which largely goes unremarked and unreported upon. I certainly hadn’t heard how common place it was. The argument over the knee has led to this abuse now being thrown into the bright lights.

    I wasn’t a fan of the gesture and the perceived politicisation of sport. But I find myself today having changed my mind. Good for them.
    Do they generally face online racism? I am happy to be persuaded. I am in a mind-changing mood
    I would imagine they all get absurd amounts of abuse of all kinds on-line.
    Makes you wonder what they gain from it, obviously they are financially rewarded but for most footballers like Rashford or Kane they have a company to compose all their social media posts for them. It would be quite easy for them to just turn the comments off, a lot of footballers just use social media to spread their brand rather than interact with random weirdos anyway.

    If they genuinely used their profiles to boycott social media Im sure the companies would take action immediately, so not sure why this hasn’t happened yet.
    Maybe because the younger generation thinks it's their right, in a sense, to be able to use social media. Like their grandparents would complain if they weren't allowed access to newspapers and the postbox because of some pillocks down the road.
  • How has the Government managed to cock up COVID again
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 94,885
    Agree.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 4,151
    The culture of impunity starts at the top. Why should standards of conduct be enforced on the lower ranks given the things that Cressida Dick has been responsible for without any hindrance to her career?

    And given the various people sitting around the Cabinet table with Johnson there is no chance of any increase in standards being driven from there either. But that Cabinet was endorsed by the electorate at a general election, so it's very hard to see how any improvement can be expected. There's no mechanism seemingly available to us.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 9,050
    fpt for moonshine


    It is odd. And it so easy to game if you are a malign foreign actor, eg Russia

    We've been discussing the mad "Russian" Scot-nat-o-bot, and her skill at seeming quasi plausible, to roil Unionists and devalue Nattery. How much simpler to just stoke racial grievance. You don't need an English-speaking brainaic in Novosibirsk to do that, you just need a GPT2-ish AI to endlessly create social media accounts and swamp the web

    American discourse has been totally poisoned by this, both sides will not even speak to each other. We are next for targetting. It is obvious. So easy to do. Destroy a country with a few million tweets. Doddle
    Flag Quote · Off Topic Like
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 38,885
    Scott_xP said:

    I thought it was going to be about "freedom day"....

    Same data but on a log axis - now you can see that hospital admissions are now growing at almost the same rate as cases.
    Roughly doubling every 11 days.
    V unsettling. Especially given cases have further to rise. So what next?
    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1414658909239918595/photo/1


    Ummm

    I'm not sure that's unsettling at all. Admissions seem to lag cases by a very short period, and cases are flattening off right now.

    Unless you think that admissions will continue to rise, uncoupled from flattening (or declining) case numbers. Which would be an odd attitude.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 14,593

    How has the Government managed to cock up COVID again

    Wait, I know this one...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 41,949
    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    3m
    I: 3.8 million vulnerable told: avoid people who haven’t had both jabs #TomorrowsPapersToday
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 62,763
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I thought it was going to be about "freedom day"....

    Same data but on a log axis - now you can see that hospital admissions are now growing at almost the same rate as cases.
    Roughly doubling every 11 days.
    V unsettling. Especially given cases have further to rise. So what next?
    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1414658909239918595/photo/1


    Ummm

    I'm not sure that's unsettling at all. Admissions seem to lag cases by a very short period, and cases are flattening off right now.

    Unless you think that admissions will continue to rise, uncoupled from flattening (or declining) case numbers. Which would be an odd attitude.
    The modellers for the government now think the peak cases will be mid august.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 9,050
    Can I congratulate Cyclefree and the mods for posting, as ever, an excellent and eloquent thread on a subject no one, right now, gives a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny little fuck about?

    It is uncanny, your ability to find the subject-NOT-of-the-moment
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,570

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    3m
    I: 3.8 million vulnerable told: avoid people who haven’t had both jabs #TomorrowsPapersToday

    How the heck can you tell?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 20,868
    The chances of any action being taken against Cressida Dick are minimal.

    The reason being is that she is a woman and its almost impossible to get rid of a prominent woman unless there is another to replace her for diversity reasons.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 14,593
    rcs1000 said:

    cases are flattening off right now.

    Unless you think that admissions will continue to rise, uncoupled from flattening (or declining) case numbers.

    The tweet literally says "cases have further to rise"
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Carnyx said:

    Brom said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    Brom said:

    dixiedean said:

    England taking the knee forced me to make racist remarks.

    I doubt that, but England taking the knee helping the fight against racism? It would be hard to say it has.

    Perhaps those fighting hard to take a knee/stop taking a knee should work together and consider some substantial action that can make a difference, particularly against social media platform abuse rather than reaffirming their entrenched stances on a fairly hollow gesture politics debate.

    So it would appear, these players face horrific online racism all the time. Which largely goes unremarked and unreported upon. I certainly hadn’t heard how common place it was. The argument over the knee has led to this abuse now being thrown into the bright lights.

    I wasn’t a fan of the gesture and the perceived politicisation of sport. But I find myself today having changed my mind. Good for them.
    Do they generally face online racism? I am happy to be persuaded. I am in a mind-changing mood
    I would imagine they all get absurd amounts of abuse of all kinds on-line.
    Makes you wonder what they gain from it, obviously they are financially rewarded but for most footballers like Rashford or Kane they have a company to compose all their social media posts for them. It would be quite easy for them to just turn the comments off, a lot of footballers just use social media to spread their brand rather than interact with random weirdos anyway.

    If they genuinely used their profiles to boycott social media Im sure the companies would take action immediately, so not sure why this hasn’t happened yet.
    Maybe because the younger generation thinks it's their right, in a sense, to be able to use social media. Like their grandparents would complain if they weren't allowed access to newspapers and the postbox because of some pillocks down the road.
    Perhaps. It seems strange that those who oppose racism the most are often those who enable and promote the platforms that fail to hold Hate to account. It’s quite believable that a lot of these chumps couldn’t manage a week without Twitter or Instagram but perhaps if they really put their minds to it they could make a real difference to the fight against racism.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 62,763
    edited July 12
    Situation in South Africa don't look good....

    https://youtu.be/WIgM0LRtlHs
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 3,684
    Excellent from Cyclefree, as always. One of the problems with recruitment and personal evaluation is this.

    If you are on a jury you are entitled to come to a conclusion about someone's character, veracity and so on, and act on it. No-one is allowed to challenge you, question you or say you are wrong. You believe or disbelieve a defendant, or a police witness or whoever, just because you do. Call it sixth sense.

    Outside the Crown Court that sixth sense is no longer allowed. So all the sorts of judgements Cyclefree wants to be made are difficult, because all your judgements can be challenged, derided as being evidence-free, discriminatory and so on. So people pull their punches, decline to rely on the sixth sense, and use the lack of an independent evidence base to justify decisions they know in their hearts are wrong.

    Everyone, especially women, know people who are creeps. People who should not be near: child care, teaching, police duties, and lots of other things. Try proving it to the satisfaction of the HR department and the lawyers!

    That personal evaluation, essential to criminal justice, but not permitted or dangerous in the bureaucratic HR world. That's part of the problem.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 54,426

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    3m
    I: 3.8 million vulnerable told: avoid people who haven’t had both jabs #TomorrowsPapersToday

    How the heck can you tell?
    If you are vulnerable you may be motivated to ask your friends/colleagues who you were planning on visiting.
  • Leon said:

    Can I congratulate Cyclefree and the mods for posting, as ever, an excellent and eloquent thread on a subject no one, right now, gives a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny little fuck about?

    It is uncanny, your ability to find the subject-NOT-of-the-moment

    It's funny, this is what I think about your posts
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,021
    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    cases are flattening off right now.

    Unless you think that admissions will continue to rise, uncoupled from flattening (or declining) case numbers.

    The tweet literally says "cases have further to rise"
    But Robert is right. There is evidence of flattening and, in some parts of the country, declining cases.


  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 216
    Scott_xP said:

    I thought it was going to be about "freedom day"....

    Same data but on a log axis - now you can see that hospital admissions are now growing at almost the same rate as cases.
    Roughly doubling every 11 days.
    V unsettling. Especially given cases have further to rise. So what next?
    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1414658909239918595/photo/1


    Rather depends on how long these people are staying in the hospitals, where they are staying and how seriously ill they become.

    Simply, if there aren't excessive numbers of Covid patients in any one hospital (or any one intensive care unit within a hospital) at any one time, then the healthcare system may become stressed but shouldn't buckle. AIUI the admission patterns and inpatient totals in the early hotspots have stabilised in such a way as to suggest that the dreaded overwhelming is unlikely.

    So long as any significant increase in total patient numbers only represents an increase from very low to fairly low numbers in many different hospitals at once then, whilst that's unfortunate for those personally affected, it oughtn't to cause serious systemic difficulties.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 3,796

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I thought it was going to be about "freedom day"....

    Same data but on a log axis - now you can see that hospital admissions are now growing at almost the same rate as cases.
    Roughly doubling every 11 days.
    V unsettling. Especially given cases have further to rise. So what next?
    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1414658909239918595/photo/1


    Ummm

    I'm not sure that's unsettling at all. Admissions seem to lag cases by a very short period, and cases are flattening off right now.

    Unless you think that admissions will continue to rise, uncoupled from flattening (or declining) case numbers. Which would be an odd attitude.
    The modellers for the government now think the peak cases will be mid august.
    Yes, but they have form in producing models which have been ridiculously wrong even on the day they were published.
    To be honest, I give Robert's views rather more credibility.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 9,830
    Wouldn’t a flattening ordinarily precede a peak? Therefore both Scott and Robert could be right (and might well be AFAIK).
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 20,868
    In other plod matters:

    A seven-year investigation into alleged police corruption and misconduct linked to the Rotherham abuse scandal has concluded - but there is no date for when the findings will be published.

    The Independent Office for Police Conduct launched Operation Linden into the conduct of South Yorkshire Police in relation to the scandal in 2014 and it has grown to become the second biggest inquiry in the organisation’s history after its probe into the Hillsborough disaster involving the same force.

    The operation covers 91 investigations into police conduct in the town between the years 1997 to 2013.

    The IOPC said today that publication of its overall findings will only take place after South Yorkshire Police have concluded a gross misconduct hearing which is linked to the operation. The hearing is yet to be scheduled but the force said today it is “currently progressing towards setting a date” after appointing a legally-qualified chair to the case.

    An IOPC spokesperson said: “We are unable to publish our overarching report until this hearing has been held.”


    https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/rotherham-abuse-scandal-iopc-probe-into-alleged-police-corruption-and-misconduct-complete-but-publication-delayed-3275644
  • RobDRobD Posts: 54,426
    edited July 12

    Leon said:

    Can I congratulate Cyclefree and the mods for posting, as ever, an excellent and eloquent thread on a subject no one, right now, gives a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny little fuck about?

    It is uncanny, your ability to find the subject-NOT-of-the-moment

    It's funny, this is what I think about your posts
    It's timely though, and people should give a f*** about it.

    Edit, sorry... mainly in reply to Leon.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 9,830

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I thought it was going to be about "freedom day"....

    Same data but on a log axis - now you can see that hospital admissions are now growing at almost the same rate as cases.
    Roughly doubling every 11 days.
    V unsettling. Especially given cases have further to rise. So what next?
    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1414658909239918595/photo/1


    Ummm

    I'm not sure that's unsettling at all. Admissions seem to lag cases by a very short period, and cases are flattening off right now.

    Unless you think that admissions will continue to rise, uncoupled from flattening (or declining) case numbers. Which would be an odd attitude.
    The modellers for the government now think the peak cases will be mid august.
    Four weeks away or so, seems plausible. The rate of growth has flattened notably recently but is still hovering around 30% or so.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 4,151
    Leon said:

    Can I congratulate Cyclefree and the mods for posting, as ever, an excellent and eloquent thread on a subject no one, right now, gives a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny little fuck about?

    It is uncanny, your ability to find the subject-NOT-of-the-moment

    Not of YOUR moment perhaps. There are other people.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 1,006

    How has the Government managed to cock up COVID again

    Imagine how good it would be if Keir and Angela were doing it

    😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 58,366
    I have to wonder about the 150 people what the context to that is.

    Eg if an 18 year old gets a conviction, potentially a minor one, then is a model citizen and twenty years later applies for and gets a job with the force then should that be allowed?

    Another reason we should have sane drugs reforms, if every lawyer, Police Officer, MP and judge etc who'd ever even as a student tried drugs were to be dismissed overnight we probably wouldn't have that many left.

    Speaking personally I haven't tried any myself since my uni days, and never had any conviction, but I feel sorry for anyone whose life prospects is meant to be destroyed for life due to actions done during adolescence.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 41,949

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    3m
    I: 3.8 million vulnerable told: avoid people who haven’t had both jabs #TomorrowsPapersToday

    How the heck can you tell?
    Basically stay at home or go outside for walk and only meet people you know have been jabbed.

    Isn't this the vulnerable protection that Great Barrington talked about and was dismissed by Gov scientists as looney outlier crazy talk?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 9,050

    Leon said:

    Can I congratulate Cyclefree and the mods for posting, as ever, an excellent and eloquent thread on a subject no one, right now, gives a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny little fuck about?

    It is uncanny, your ability to find the subject-NOT-of-the-moment

    It's funny, this is what I think about your posts
    The comments veered off topic as early as comment 4. And that was Robert Smithson, widow of this parish


    They're not doing any favours to Cylcefree, who is articulate and often interesting, if a bit long-winded for my tastes. Her thoughtful essays go unread because other issues dominate
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 62,763
    Vulnerable double jabbed people being told to pseudo shield, don't have contact with non double jabbed people.

    Puts tin foil hat on....do we think that perhaps there is concern that the virus escape might be occurring a bit more readily than initial thought / current historical data says?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 9,830
    Again, cases having further to rise and their also flattening is perfectly possible is it not? Rather than the two dynamics being contradictory aren’t they in fact what happens at most covid peaks?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 14,593

    Basically stay at home or go outside for walk and only meet people you know have been jabbed.

    Don't go to the shops. Or the pub. Or anywhere other people might be. Ever.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 216
    Leon said:

    Can I congratulate Cyclefree and the mods for posting, as ever, an excellent and eloquent thread on a subject no one, right now, gives a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny little fuck about?

    It is uncanny, your ability to find the subject-NOT-of-the-moment

    Well, some people might not be interested. OTOH, 474 consecutive threads about football or today's rules about sunshine holidays might get a bit samey.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 62,763
    Police were clearly poorly prepared again yesterday for the football....who is responsible and will they ever ben held accountable? Nah don't be silly.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 14,593
    WATCH: A reminder what Home Secretary said to me last month around taking the knee

    Priti Patel said those involved are participating in “gesture politics” and when asked if England fans had a right to boo said “that's a choice for them, quite frankly”


    https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1404407912890519552/video/1
  • CookieCookie Posts: 3,796

    How has the Government managed to cock up COVID again

    By bending to the whim of those it has spent the last 18 months trying to frighten.

    My oldest (year 6) can go back to school tomorrow, but my middle daughter now has ten days house arrest as someone has tested positive in her class now.

    My wife is going to take the 'last day of school' photograph every day, and walk her to school every day, because the chances of her getting to her actual last day of school without the bubble popping again seem slim.

    I know I'm lucky. We can both work at home; having our daughters around (well, the older two at least) isn't that much of a problem.

    But I'm just so utterly sad about all the landmarks they are missing - my oldest at least. Your last term of primary school should be a time of celebration. But everything, everything is quietly being shelved. Two school plays, a leavers assembly, a leavers disco, a year 6 residential, sports day - all gone. Because government will not have the courage of their convictions and just open the country up; and because parents, frightened into submission, will not stop testing their children.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 94,885
    edited July 12

    Vulnerable double jabbed people being told to pseudo shield, don't have contact with non double jabbed people.

    Puts tin foil hat on....do we think that perhaps there is concern that the virus escape might be occurring a bit more readily than initial thought / current historical data says?

    That puts this family in a right pickle.

    My mother was who told to shield during the plague.

    She lives in the same house as her two school age grandchildren who aren't double jabbed.

    I guess they are now living in a tent in the garden.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 54,426

    Again, cases having further to rise and their also flattening is perfectly possible is it not? Rather than the two dynamics being contradictory aren’t they in fact what happens at most covid peaks?

    I think so, because the rise/fall is not uniform across the country.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 9,830

    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    3m
    I: 3.8 million vulnerable told: avoid people who haven’t had both jabs #TomorrowsPapersToday

    How the heck can you tell?
    Basically stay at home or go outside for walk and only meet people you know have been jabbed.

    Isn't this the vulnerable protection that Great Barrington talked about and was dismissed by Gov scientists as looney outlier crazy talk?
    Yes, risk segmentation, absolutely derided on this board as unviable has morphed into real-life vaccine-based risk segmentation.

    Funny old world.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 12,368
    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    Can I congratulate Cyclefree and the mods for posting, as ever, an excellent and eloquent thread on a subject no one, right now, gives a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny little fuck about?

    It is uncanny, your ability to find the subject-NOT-of-the-moment

    Well, some people might not be interested. OTOH, 474 consecutive threads about football or today's rules about sunshine holidays might get a bit samey.
    One can certainly see why the majority of the population might want to read something other than footie.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 9,050
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Can I congratulate Cyclefree and the mods for posting, as ever, an excellent and eloquent thread on a subject no one, right now, gives a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny little fuck about?

    It is uncanny, your ability to find the subject-NOT-of-the-moment

    Can in congratulate you on finding new ways in which to be incredibly crass? A serial sex offender turned rapist/murderer is serving as an armed officer in the nation’s largest police force and you think no one gives a fuck? It’s of considerably more pressing concern than your flying fucking saucers (sorry for the swears - he started it) particularly to one not insignificant proportion of he population, which is underrepresented on this board anyway.
    lol. Fair enough

    My suggestion would be to keep these long, philosophical cyclefree-ish threaders for the weekend, a bit like the Sunday papers, when people are relaxed and prepared to engage with more involved and technical arguments

    The day after the country crashed out of a mad, nation-gripping footie tournament (amidst great controversy), and the same day the government basically announced its pursuit of pandemic herd immunity (and many deaths from plague) is not optimal for stuff like this. In my opinion
  • TazTaz Posts: 1,090
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Can I congratulate Cyclefree and the mods for posting, as ever, an excellent and eloquent thread on a subject no one, right now, gives a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny little fuck about?

    It is uncanny, your ability to find the subject-NOT-of-the-moment

    Can in congratulate you on finding new ways in which to be incredibly crass? A serial sex offender turned rapist/murderer is serving as an armed officer in the nation’s largest police force and you think no one gives a fuck? It’s of considerably more pressing concern than your flying fucking saucers (sorry for the swears - he started it) particularly to one not insignificant proportion of he population, which is underrepresented on this board anyway.
    Hear hear.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 58,366
    Scott_xP said:

    I thought it was going to be about "freedom day"....

    Same data but on a log axis - now you can see that hospital admissions are now growing at almost the same rate as cases.
    Roughly doubling every 11 days.
    V unsettling. Especially given cases have further to rise. So what next?
    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1414658909239918595/photo/1


    Although the in-hospital figures are rising slower. Seems more people are being admitted and being rapidly discharged.

    The latest data for in hospital on the dashboard is double that of nineteen days earlier, not eleven.

    Plus if people are getting hospitalised as they've refused the vaccine then that's on them. Qué Será Será.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 216

    Vulnerable double jabbed people being told to pseudo shield, don't have contact with non double jabbed people.

    Puts tin foil hat on....do we think that perhaps there is concern that the virus escape might be occurring a bit more readily than initial thought / current historical data says?

    Don't think so, it's just the Government changing its mind every five minutes.

    Anyway, the "vulnerable" aren't some vast monolithic bloc. Some people are so medically compromised and/or terrified that they've never stopped shielding; others have had enough and will ignore these kinds of entreaties completely; and you'll get various degrees of caution in between.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 2,147
    Leon said:

    fpt for moonshine


    It is odd. And it so easy to game if you are a malign foreign actor, eg Russia

    We've been discussing the mad "Russian" Scot-nat-o-bot, and her skill at seeming quasi plausible, to roil Unionists and devalue Nattery. How much simpler to just stoke racial grievance. You don't need an English-speaking brainaic in Novosibirsk to do that, you just need a GPT2-ish AI to endlessly create social media accounts and swamp the web

    American discourse has been totally poisoned by this, both sides will not even speak to each other. We are next for targetting. It is obvious. So easy to do. Destroy a country with a few million tweets. Doddle
    Flag Quote · Off Topic Like

    It gives a warm fuzzy feeling to think that most of the online racist abuse last night came from Russian bots. Easily solved that is really. And then I watched the videos from Wembley and listened to first hand accounts, including about your Corbyn follower mate. Hmmm. And there dissolves the warm fuzzy feeling.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 16,601
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Can I congratulate Cyclefree and the mods for posting, as ever, an excellent and eloquent thread on a subject no one, right now, gives a tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny tiny little fuck about?

    It is uncanny, your ability to find the subject-NOT-of-the-moment

    Can in congratulate you on finding new ways in which to be incredibly crass? A serial sex offender turned rapist/murderer is serving as an armed officer in the nation’s largest police force and you think no one gives a fuck? It’s of considerably more pressing concern than your flying fucking saucers (sorry for the swears - he started it) particularly to one not insignificant proportion of he population, which is underrepresented on this board anyway.
    Actually, I think you'll find that many, many people share Cyclefree's view.

    The police are a bad joke to quite a few of the middle classes who should be their natural supporters. I can recall a drinks do, where a serving police officer proudly came out with the "plan" that if a member of the armed police was charged, then all member of the armed police would then hand in their armed police "tickets", as a collective action. He was somewhat shocked to discover that this was taken as an assumption of guilt... in a rather well-thats-settled-then kind of way.

    This belief has spread throughout government, permanent and elected. The reason why is quite funny, really. Arresting MPs and Plebgate are part of it - but essentially the police systematically convinced Oxford students, year by year, that they were "bent". All those people studying PPE....
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,021

    Vulnerable double jabbed people being told to pseudo shield, don't have contact with non double jabbed people.

    Puts tin foil hat on....do we think that perhaps there is concern that the virus escape might be occurring a bit more readily than initial thought / current historical data says?

    If that were the case then being non double jabbed would not make any difference - the vaccine could get round them anyway.

    The reason, the only reason, that they are going ahead now is because we’re going to have an exit wave anyway and timing wise this is the least worse. Like the second wave we are getting this wave ahead of the rest of Europe. Have you looked at the Dutch figures lately?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 41,949

    Vulnerable double jabbed people being told to pseudo shield, don't have contact with non double jabbed people.

    Puts tin foil hat on....do we think that perhaps there is concern that the virus escape might be occurring a bit more readily than initial thought / current historical data says?

    Isn't it more that many of the CEV peeps are immuno suppressed and they don't know whether the vaccine full work in those cases, so best to stay with people are a less likely to pass it on to you (i.e. double jagged)?

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 62,763
    Christ alive....

    Capeesh Italian last night on the isle of dogs

    https://twitter.com/CrimeLdn/status/1414678770162802690?s=20
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 13,207
    algarkirk said:

    Excellent from Cyclefree, as always. One of the problems with recruitment and personal evaluation is this.

    If you are on a jury you are entitled to come to a conclusion about someone's character, veracity and so on, and act on it. No-one is allowed to challenge you, question you or say you are wrong. You believe or disbelieve a defendant, or a police witness or whoever, just because you do. Call it sixth sense.

    Outside the Crown Court that sixth sense is no longer allowed. So all the sorts of judgements Cyclefree wants to be made are difficult, because all your judgements can be challenged, derided as being evidence-free, discriminatory and so on. So people pull their punches, decline to rely on the sixth sense, and use the lack of an independent evidence base to justify decisions they know in their hearts are wrong.

    Everyone, especially women, know people who are creeps. People who should not be near: child care, teaching, police duties, and lots of other things. Try proving it to the satisfaction of the HR department and the lawyers!

    That personal evaluation, essential to criminal justice, but not permitted or dangerous in the bureaucratic HR world. That's part of the problem.

    Teaching its simple.
    You have a clean enhanced DBS. That, apparently, you don't need one for the Police is jaw-dropping.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 16,601
    edited July 12
    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    cases are flattening off right now.

    Unless you think that admissions will continue to rise, uncoupled from flattening (or declining) case numbers.

    The tweet literally says "cases have further to rise"
    But Robert is right. There is evidence of flattening and, in some parts of the country, declining cases.


    Ahem.... And yes, the last 3-5 days should be ignored for the moment

    image
    image
    image
  • LeonLeon Posts: 9,050
    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for moonshine


    It is odd. And it so easy to game if you are a malign foreign actor, eg Russia

    We've been discussing the mad "Russian" Scot-nat-o-bot, and her skill at seeming quasi plausible, to roil Unionists and devalue Nattery. How much simpler to just stoke racial grievance. You don't need an English-speaking brainaic in Novosibirsk to do that, you just need a GPT2-ish AI to endlessly create social media accounts and swamp the web

    American discourse has been totally poisoned by this, both sides will not even speak to each other. We are next for targetting. It is obvious. So easy to do. Destroy a country with a few million tweets. Doddle
    Flag Quote · Off Topic Like

    It gives a warm fuzzy feeling to think that most of the online racist abuse last night came from Russian bots. Easily solved that is really. And then I watched the videos from Wembley and listened to first hand accounts, including about your Corbyn follower mate. Hmmm. And there dissolves the warm fuzzy feeling.
    Likewise. I've now seen enough videos to think Ugh

    It is possible to believe these two thoughts at the same time: there is a problem with racism and thuggery in English football, and Taking The Knee actually makes it worse

    A lot of the resentment I am seeing is: fuck these millionaires telling us we are racist, who cares, they lost, I might as well be racist

    It is not a wholesome dynamic. Again, my guess is that all this has been easily and expertly stoked by outside actors

  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,021
    Scott_xP said:

    WATCH: A reminder what Home Secretary said to me last month around taking the knee

    Priti Patel said those involved are participating in “gesture politics” and when asked if England fans had a right to boo said “that's a choice for them, quite frankly”


    https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1404407912890519552/video/1

    Scott, we know you think this government is pants, many of us here, including me, tend to agree. Which flavour of alternative would you prefer? I think everyone who can be persuaded this bunch is terrible has been by now and we need to move into phase 2, Project Present A Viable Alternative. You might also lose the Scott n’ Paste nickname.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 29,849
    @Cyclefree an eloquent and depressing header, as so often.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 38,885
    Cookie said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I thought it was going to be about "freedom day"....

    Same data but on a log axis - now you can see that hospital admissions are now growing at almost the same rate as cases.
    Roughly doubling every 11 days.
    V unsettling. Especially given cases have further to rise. So what next?
    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1414658909239918595/photo/1


    Ummm

    I'm not sure that's unsettling at all. Admissions seem to lag cases by a very short period, and cases are flattening off right now.

    Unless you think that admissions will continue to rise, uncoupled from flattening (or declining) case numbers. Which would be an odd attitude.
    The modellers for the government now think the peak cases will be mid august.
    Yes, but they have form in producing models which have been ridiculously wrong even on the day they were published.
    To be honest, I give Robert's views rather more credibility.
    Am I allowed to like that comment?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 13,207

    In other plod matters:

    A seven-year investigation into alleged police corruption and misconduct linked to the Rotherham abuse scandal has concluded - but there is no date for when the findings will be published.

    The Independent Office for Police Conduct launched Operation Linden into the conduct of South Yorkshire Police in relation to the scandal in 2014 and it has grown to become the second biggest inquiry in the organisation’s history after its probe into the Hillsborough disaster involving the same force.

    The operation covers 91 investigations into police conduct in the town between the years 1997 to 2013.

    The IOPC said today that publication of its overall findings will only take place after South Yorkshire Police have concluded a gross misconduct hearing which is linked to the operation. The hearing is yet to be scheduled but the force said today it is “currently progressing towards setting a date” after appointing a legally-qualified chair to the case.

    An IOPC spokesperson said: “We are unable to publish our overarching report until this hearing has been held.”


    https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/rotherham-abuse-scandal-iopc-probe-into-alleged-police-corruption-and-misconduct-complete-but-publication-delayed-3275644

    What is the reason for SYP?
    To make the Met look respectable.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,021

    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    cases are flattening off right now.

    Unless you think that admissions will continue to rise, uncoupled from flattening (or declining) case numbers.

    The tweet literally says "cases have further to rise"
    But Robert is right. There is evidence of flattening and, in some parts of the country, declining cases.


    Ahem.... And yes, the last 3-5 days should be ignored for the moment

    image
    image
    image
    Sorry Malmesbury. I was really carrying coals to Newcastle there.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Southgate said: “They should be - and I think they are - incredibly proud of what they’ve done. For some of them to be abused is unforgiveable really. I know a lot has come from abroad. People who track those things have been able to explain that. But not all of it.”

    Definitely a point that needed to be made that most of this abuse is not from the English.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 16,601
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    cases are flattening off right now.

    Unless you think that admissions will continue to rise, uncoupled from flattening (or declining) case numbers.

    The tweet literally says "cases have further to rise"
    But Robert is right. There is evidence of flattening and, in some parts of the country, declining cases.


    Ahem.... And yes, the last 3-5 days should be ignored for the moment

    image
    image
    image
    Sorry Malmesbury. I was really carrying coals to Newcastle there.
    Well, all the coal mines in Newcastle are shut. So, there is actually a small trade in providing coal in Newcastle....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 62,763
    edited July 12
    DougSeal said:

    Vulnerable double jabbed people being told to pseudo shield, don't have contact with non double jabbed people.

    Puts tin foil hat on....do we think that perhaps there is concern that the virus escape might be occurring a bit more readily than initial thought / current historical data says?

    If that were the case then being non double jabbed would not make any difference - the vaccine could get round them anyway.

    The reason, the only reason, that they are going ahead now is because we’re going to have an exit wave anyway and timing wise this is the least worse. Like the second wave we are getting this wave ahead of the rest of Europe. Have you looked at the Dutch figures lately?
    That's not quite what I am saying.

    The data so far has said ~70-80% protection against symptomatic infection, up to 91-98% against hospitalization.

    The Israel data on small sample size wasn't as good as this, more like 60% against infection. I wary of this because of law of small numbers, but....

    I am just saying, lets just presume that its closer to 70% than 80% for infection and 90% rather than to 98%, perhaps there is concern among SAGE that those few extra percentage with an exit wave will be adding a fair number of extra severe cases.

    SAGE get to see the full dataset in real time and we know that the revised models had hospitalizations down at ~300 vs the reality of hospitalizations 550-600.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 9,050

    Christ alive....

    Capeesh Italian last night on the isle of dogs

    https://twitter.com/CrimeLdn/status/1414678770162802690?s=20

    Hideous. But an excellent bar brawl, as they go
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 38,885
    Scott_xP said:

    WATCH: A reminder what Home Secretary said to me last month around taking the knee

    Priti Patel said those involved are participating in “gesture politics” and when asked if England fans had a right to boo said “that's a choice for them, quite frankly”


    https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1404407912890519552/video/1

    Would that be the same Priti Patel who introduced rushed legislation that will do little to achieve its primary purpose, and seems almost like... some kind of gesture?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,021
    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for moonshine


    It is odd. And it so easy to game if you are a malign foreign actor, eg Russia

    We've been discussing the mad "Russian" Scot-nat-o-bot, and her skill at seeming quasi plausible, to roil Unionists and devalue Nattery. How much simpler to just stoke racial grievance. You don't need an English-speaking brainaic in Novosibirsk to do that, you just need a GPT2-ish AI to endlessly create social media accounts and swamp the web

    American discourse has been totally poisoned by this, both sides will not even speak to each other. We are next for targetting. It is obvious. So easy to do. Destroy a country with a few million tweets. Doddle
    Flag Quote · Off Topic Like

    It gives a warm fuzzy feeling to think that most of the online racist abuse last night came from Russian bots. Easily solved that is really. And then I watched the videos from Wembley and listened to first hand accounts, including about your Corbyn follower mate. Hmmm. And there dissolves the warm fuzzy feeling.
    Likewise. I've now seen enough videos to think Ugh

    It is possible to believe these two thoughts at the same time: there is a problem with racism and thuggery in English football, and Taking The Knee actually makes it worse

    A lot of the resentment I am seeing is: fuck these millionaires telling us we are racist, who cares, they lost, I might as well be racist

    It is not a wholesome dynamic. Again, my guess is that all this has been easily and expertly stoked by outside actors

    This is hardly new. Football fans have always been a source of embarrassment to the England team and, by extension, he nation as a whole. I never get any joy from watching us at football. Even in the darkest days of the 90s I have always gleaned considerably more pride in our cricket team and it’s fans. The rugby bunch are worthy but dull fan wise. But the football crowd…urgh…
  • TazTaz Posts: 1,090
    Scott_xP said:

    WATCH: A reminder what Home Secretary said to me last month around taking the knee

    Priti Patel said those involved are participating in “gesture politics” and when asked if England fans had a right to boo said “that's a choice for them, quite frankly”


    https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1404407912890519552/video/1

    But in those terms she’s right. They do have a right to boo. Should they so wish. No laws are being broken. It’s just a bit daft to boo it and claim it’s supporting Marxism.

    I wouldn’t boo what is a well meaning gesture against a pervasive evil in society and if it is gesture politics it is a good gesture.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 16,601

    Scott_xP said:

    I thought it was going to be about "freedom day"....

    Same data but on a log axis - now you can see that hospital admissions are now growing at almost the same rate as cases.
    Roughly doubling every 11 days.
    V unsettling. Especially given cases have further to rise. So what next?
    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1414658909239918595/photo/1


    Although the in-hospital figures are rising slower. Seems more people are being admitted and being rapidly discharged.

    The latest data for in hospital on the dashboard is double that of nineteen days earlier, not eleven.

    Plus if people are getting hospitalised as they've refused the vaccine then that's on them. Qué Será Será.
    and yet we have -

    image

    we shall see where we are on this after Murder Tuesday - that drop on the right had side will fill in,...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 12,415
    Scott_xP said:

    WATCH: A reminder what Home Secretary said to me last month around taking the knee

    Priti Patel said those involved are participating in “gesture politics” and when asked if England fans had a right to boo said “that's a choice for them, quite frankly”


    https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1404407912890519552/video/1

    She was right IMO.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 38,885

    DougSeal said:

    Scott_xP said:

    rcs1000 said:

    cases are flattening off right now.

    Unless you think that admissions will continue to rise, uncoupled from flattening (or declining) case numbers.

    The tweet literally says "cases have further to rise"
    But Robert is right. There is evidence of flattening and, in some parts of the country, declining cases.


    Ahem.... And yes, the last 3-5 days should be ignored for the moment

    image
    image
    image
    Even ignoring the last three days (for obvious reasons), the growth rate is continuing to slow.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 9,050
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for moonshine


    It is odd. And it so easy to game if you are a malign foreign actor, eg Russia

    We've been discussing the mad "Russian" Scot-nat-o-bot, and her skill at seeming quasi plausible, to roil Unionists and devalue Nattery. How much simpler to just stoke racial grievance. You don't need an English-speaking brainaic in Novosibirsk to do that, you just need a GPT2-ish AI to endlessly create social media accounts and swamp the web

    American discourse has been totally poisoned by this, both sides will not even speak to each other. We are next for targetting. It is obvious. So easy to do. Destroy a country with a few million tweets. Doddle
    Flag Quote · Off Topic Like

    It gives a warm fuzzy feeling to think that most of the online racist abuse last night came from Russian bots. Easily solved that is really. And then I watched the videos from Wembley and listened to first hand accounts, including about your Corbyn follower mate. Hmmm. And there dissolves the warm fuzzy feeling.
    Likewise. I've now seen enough videos to think Ugh

    It is possible to believe these two thoughts at the same time: there is a problem with racism and thuggery in English football, and Taking The Knee actually makes it worse

    A lot of the resentment I am seeing is: fuck these millionaires telling us we are racist, who cares, they lost, I might as well be racist

    It is not a wholesome dynamic. Again, my guess is that all this has been easily and expertly stoked by outside actors

    This is hardly new. Football fans have always been a source of embarrassment to the England team and, by extension, he nation as a whole. I never get any joy from watching us at football. Even in the darkest days of the 90s I have always gleaned considerably more pride in our cricket team and it’s fans. The rugby bunch are worthy but dull fan wise. But the football crowd…urgh…
    It's not new, but social media has made it newly toxic
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 94,885
    Anyhoo, my return to the office has been delayed until mid September now.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 6,976
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I thought it was going to be about "freedom day"....

    Same data but on a log axis - now you can see that hospital admissions are now growing at almost the same rate as cases.
    Roughly doubling every 11 days.
    V unsettling. Especially given cases have further to rise. So what next?
    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1414658909239918595/photo/1


    Ummm

    I'm not sure that's unsettling at all. Admissions seem to lag cases by a very short period, and cases are flattening off right now.

    Unless you think that admissions will continue to rise, uncoupled from flattening (or declining) case numbers. Which would be an odd attitude.
    There is a 16 day lag between cases and admissions.
    Cases are levelling off.
    Admissions and deaths will continue to rise (treble) for a couple of weeks before levelling off.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    WATCH: A reminder what Home Secretary said to me last month around taking the knee

    Priti Patel said those involved are participating in “gesture politics” and when asked if England fans had a right to boo said “that's a choice for them, quite frankly”


    https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1404407912890519552/video/1

    But in those terms she’s right. They do have a right to boo. Should they so wish. No laws are being broken. It’s just a bit daft to boo it and claim it’s supporting Marxism.

    I wouldn’t boo what is a well meaning gesture against a pervasive evil in society and if it is gesture politics it is a good gesture.
    Only a fascist would agree that they don’t have a right to boo. The whole circus was sadly completely avoidable. Supposedly it wasn’t political but you’ve got politicians interfering in football and footballers interfering in politics. I suspect Mings and Patel won’t be in their respective positions in a couple of years thankfully. One is not a very good Home Sec and one is not a very good international centre back.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 9,830
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for moonshine


    It is odd. And it so easy to game if you are a malign foreign actor, eg Russia

    We've been discussing the mad "Russian" Scot-nat-o-bot, and her skill at seeming quasi plausible, to roil Unionists and devalue Nattery. How much simpler to just stoke racial grievance. You don't need an English-speaking brainaic in Novosibirsk to do that, you just need a GPT2-ish AI to endlessly create social media accounts and swamp the web

    American discourse has been totally poisoned by this, both sides will not even speak to each other. We are next for targetting. It is obvious. So easy to do. Destroy a country with a few million tweets. Doddle
    Flag Quote · Off Topic Like

    It gives a warm fuzzy feeling to think that most of the online racist abuse last night came from Russian bots. Easily solved that is really. And then I watched the videos from Wembley and listened to first hand accounts, including about your Corbyn follower mate. Hmmm. And there dissolves the warm fuzzy feeling.
    Likewise. I've now seen enough videos to think Ugh

    It is possible to believe these two thoughts at the same time: there is a problem with racism and thuggery in English football, and Taking The Knee actually makes it worse

    A lot of the resentment I am seeing is: fuck these millionaires telling us we are racist, who cares, they lost, I might as well be racist

    It is not a wholesome dynamic. Again, my guess is that all this has been easily and expertly stoked by outside actors

    This is hardly new. Football fans have always been a source of embarrassment to the England team and, by extension, he nation as a whole. I never get any joy from watching us at football. Even in the darkest days of the 90s I have always gleaned considerably more pride in our cricket team and it’s fans. The rugby bunch are worthy but dull fan wise. But the football crowd…urgh…
    Again, I’ve been to several England games and the crowd has been perfectly fine. I am as appalled as anyone about some of last night’s scenes but I’m concerned we are tarring all England fans with the same brush - while also implying that hooliganism is uniquely English.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/worldcup/world-cup-2018-two-football-fans-killed-in-france-as-police-clash-with-revellers-in-paris-amid-world-cup-celebrations-a3887796.html
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 58,366
    Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    WATCH: A reminder what Home Secretary said to me last month around taking the knee

    Priti Patel said those involved are participating in “gesture politics” and when asked if England fans had a right to boo said “that's a choice for them, quite frankly”


    https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1404407912890519552/video/1

    She was right IMO.
    I agree and I support the gesture.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 9,050
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    WATCH: A reminder what Home Secretary said to me last month around taking the knee

    Priti Patel said those involved are participating in “gesture politics” and when asked if England fans had a right to boo said “that's a choice for them, quite frankly”


    https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1404407912890519552/video/1

    But in those terms she’s right. They do have a right to boo. Should they so wish. No laws are being broken. It’s just a bit daft to boo it and claim it’s supporting Marxism.

    I wouldn’t boo what is a well meaning gesture against a pervasive evil in society and if it is gesture politics it is a good gesture.
    But it is supporting Marxism. BLM is a vile Marxist organisation that seeks to sow racial hatred across the West, and it is working. As we see

    Britain, to me, is now palpably more racist than it was, say, 5 years ago. America is probably much worse (dunno, haven't been there, but the polls say Yes)

    In Marxist terms this may be a Result: you have to break down a society before you can reorder it. But for most this is a disaster. Meanwhile China and Russia are cheering it all on, and probably enabling it
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,018
    Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    WATCH: A reminder what Home Secretary said to me last month around taking the knee

    Priti Patel said those involved are participating in “gesture politics” and when asked if England fans had a right to boo said “that's a choice for them, quite frankly”


    https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1404407912890519552/video/1

    She was right IMO.
    Interesting that those thinking it is terrible to boo at taking the knee have no problem with booing members of the Government whenever they go to a sporting event.....
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 38,885
    Barnesian said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I thought it was going to be about "freedom day"....

    Same data but on a log axis - now you can see that hospital admissions are now growing at almost the same rate as cases.
    Roughly doubling every 11 days.
    V unsettling. Especially given cases have further to rise. So what next?
    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1414658909239918595/photo/1


    Ummm

    I'm not sure that's unsettling at all. Admissions seem to lag cases by a very short period, and cases are flattening off right now.

    Unless you think that admissions will continue to rise, uncoupled from flattening (or declining) case numbers. Which would be an odd attitude.
    There is a 16 day lag between cases and admissions.
    Cases are levelling off.
    Admissions and deaths will continue to rise (treble) for a couple of weeks before levelling off.
    I thought the gap was a little shorter than that - like 8 to 10 days now.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 62,763
    edited July 12
    Freedom Day for vulnerable oldies has turned into more like when you were 17/18 and your parents say ok you can go to the pub with your mates, but you can only have 2 pints and we will pick you up at 10.30pm.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 29,568

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for moonshine


    It is odd. And it so easy to game if you are a malign foreign actor, eg Russia

    We've been discussing the mad "Russian" Scot-nat-o-bot, and her skill at seeming quasi plausible, to roil Unionists and devalue Nattery. How much simpler to just stoke racial grievance. You don't need an English-speaking brainaic in Novosibirsk to do that, you just need a GPT2-ish AI to endlessly create social media accounts and swamp the web

    American discourse has been totally poisoned by this, both sides will not even speak to each other. We are next for targetting. It is obvious. So easy to do. Destroy a country with a few million tweets. Doddle
    Flag Quote · Off Topic Like

    It gives a warm fuzzy feeling to think that most of the online racist abuse last night came from Russian bots. Easily solved that is really. And then I watched the videos from Wembley and listened to first hand accounts, including about your Corbyn follower mate. Hmmm. And there dissolves the warm fuzzy feeling.
    Likewise. I've now seen enough videos to think Ugh

    It is possible to believe these two thoughts at the same time: there is a problem with racism and thuggery in English football, and Taking The Knee actually makes it worse

    A lot of the resentment I am seeing is: fuck these millionaires telling us we are racist, who cares, they lost, I might as well be racist

    It is not a wholesome dynamic. Again, my guess is that all this has been easily and expertly stoked by outside actors

    This is hardly new. Football fans have always been a source of embarrassment to the England team and, by extension, he nation as a whole. I never get any joy from watching us at football. Even in the darkest days of the 90s I have always gleaned considerably more pride in our cricket team and it’s fans. The rugby bunch are worthy but dull fan wise. But the football crowd…urgh…
    Again, I’ve been to several England games and the crowd has been perfectly fine. I am as appalled as anyone about some of last night’s scenes but I’m concerned we are tarring all England fans with the same brush - while also implying that hooliganism is uniquely English.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/worldcup/world-cup-2018-two-football-fans-killed-in-france-as-police-clash-with-revellers-in-paris-amid-world-cup-celebrations-a3887796.html
    I think the FA and police failed very badly to keep the violent hooligan element away from Wembley last night. There's nothing else to really say and both the FA and Met need to do a lot better next time, fans of the opposing side should never fear going to and England match in England, matter the occasion.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,021
    edited July 12

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for moonshine


    It is odd. And it so easy to game if you are a malign foreign actor, eg Russia

    We've been discussing the mad "Russian" Scot-nat-o-bot, and her skill at seeming quasi plausible, to roil Unionists and devalue Nattery. How much simpler to just stoke racial grievance. You don't need an English-speaking brainaic in Novosibirsk to do that, you just need a GPT2-ish AI to endlessly create social media accounts and swamp the web

    American discourse has been totally poisoned by this, both sides will not even speak to each other. We are next for targetting. It is obvious. So easy to do. Destroy a country with a few million tweets. Doddle
    Flag Quote · Off Topic Like

    It gives a warm fuzzy feeling to think that most of the online racist abuse last night came from Russian bots. Easily solved that is really. And then I watched the videos from Wembley and listened to first hand accounts, including about your Corbyn follower mate. Hmmm. And there dissolves the warm fuzzy feeling.
    Likewise. I've now seen enough videos to think Ugh

    It is possible to believe these two thoughts at the same time: there is a problem with racism and thuggery in English football, and Taking The Knee actually makes it worse

    A lot of the resentment I am seeing is: fuck these millionaires telling us we are racist, who cares, they lost, I might as well be racist

    It is not a wholesome dynamic. Again, my guess is that all this has been easily and expertly stoked by outside actors

    This is hardly new. Football fans have always been a source of embarrassment to the England team and, by extension, he nation as a whole. I never get any joy from watching us at football. Even in the darkest days of the 90s I have always gleaned considerably more pride in our cricket team and it’s fans. The rugby bunch are worthy but dull fan wise. But the football crowd…urgh…
    Again, I’ve been to several England games and the crowd has been perfectly fine. I am as appalled as anyone about some of last night’s scenes but I’m concerned we are tarring all England fans with the same brush - while also implying that hooliganism is uniquely English.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/worldcup/world-cup-2018-two-football-fans-killed-in-france-as-police-clash-with-revellers-in-paris-amid-world-cup-celebrations-a3887796.html
    The last England game I went to was in Middlesbrough in 2002 when Wembley was being rebuilt - a Euro 2004 qualifier. I sat in a bar waiting for my friend who had got us the tickets regained with the dulcet tones of a song about rather being from Pakistan than Turkey save that the chorus did not present the sentiment quite like that. Never had any desire to go again and even watching on TV just makes me tense.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 29,568
    rcs1000 said:

    Barnesian said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I thought it was going to be about "freedom day"....

    Same data but on a log axis - now you can see that hospital admissions are now growing at almost the same rate as cases.
    Roughly doubling every 11 days.
    V unsettling. Especially given cases have further to rise. So what next?
    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1414658909239918595/photo/1


    Ummm

    I'm not sure that's unsettling at all. Admissions seem to lag cases by a very short period, and cases are flattening off right now.

    Unless you think that admissions will continue to rise, uncoupled from flattening (or declining) case numbers. Which would be an odd attitude.
    There is a 16 day lag between cases and admissions.
    Cases are levelling off.
    Admissions and deaths will continue to rise (treble) for a couple of weeks before levelling off.
    I thought the gap was a little shorter than that - like 8 to 10 days now.
    Yeah about 8 days to an admission and about 15-20 days for a death. Infection to a case being registered is about 4 days.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 9,830
    MaxPB said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    moonshine said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for moonshine


    It is odd. And it so easy to game if you are a malign foreign actor, eg Russia

    We've been discussing the mad "Russian" Scot-nat-o-bot, and her skill at seeming quasi plausible, to roil Unionists and devalue Nattery. How much simpler to just stoke racial grievance. You don't need an English-speaking brainaic in Novosibirsk to do that, you just need a GPT2-ish AI to endlessly create social media accounts and swamp the web

    American discourse has been totally poisoned by this, both sides will not even speak to each other. We are next for targetting. It is obvious. So easy to do. Destroy a country with a few million tweets. Doddle
    Flag Quote · Off Topic Like

    It gives a warm fuzzy feeling to think that most of the online racist abuse last night came from Russian bots. Easily solved that is really. And then I watched the videos from Wembley and listened to first hand accounts, including about your Corbyn follower mate. Hmmm. And there dissolves the warm fuzzy feeling.
    Likewise. I've now seen enough videos to think Ugh

    It is possible to believe these two thoughts at the same time: there is a problem with racism and thuggery in English football, and Taking The Knee actually makes it worse

    A lot of the resentment I am seeing is: fuck these millionaires telling us we are racist, who cares, they lost, I might as well be racist

    It is not a wholesome dynamic. Again, my guess is that all this has been easily and expertly stoked by outside actors

    This is hardly new. Football fans have always been a source of embarrassment to the England team and, by extension, he nation as a whole. I never get any joy from watching us at football. Even in the darkest days of the 90s I have always gleaned considerably more pride in our cricket team and it’s fans. The rugby bunch are worthy but dull fan wise. But the football crowd…urgh…
    Again, I’ve been to several England games and the crowd has been perfectly fine. I am as appalled as anyone about some of last night’s scenes but I’m concerned we are tarring all England fans with the same brush - while also implying that hooliganism is uniquely English.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/worldcup/world-cup-2018-two-football-fans-killed-in-france-as-police-clash-with-revellers-in-paris-amid-world-cup-celebrations-a3887796.html
    I think the FA and police failed very badly to keep the violent hooligan element away from Wembley last night. There's nothing else to really say and both the FA and Met need to do a lot better next time, fans of the opposing side should never fear going to and England match in England, matter the occasion.
    Agreed.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 9,050
    edited July 12
    Cyclefree said:

    Dearest @Leon -

    I do not decide when headers are published. I am grateful to be published at all.

    Most people can be interested in more than one thing at a time. We have had endless and endlessly boring threads about football. Sometimes people go on about bloody cricket. I know that men think that what interests them should interest everyone else and is the only thing that matters but this ain't necessarily so.

    Sometimes you even get posters berating other posters about not taking seriously reports of an obscure new overseas disease because they were more interested in the apparently more important topics of the day. There was one such poster last year, I seem to recall. Whatever happened to him, I wonder?

    Sometimes what makes the most immediate noise is not what is most important.

    But I promise you this: if I ever get published for money I will ask you to be my editor. You'll have to read what I write then. I am a Woman with Opinions. You seem to have a few of your own. It should be a lot of fun.

    Deal?

    Deal.

    I demand a free meal at your daughter's pub, however, as payment for my editing. Quid pro quo!
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