Welcome to the next stage of COVID – The Government versus the Scientists – politicalbetting.com

TOPPING said:

MarqueeMark said:

DavidL said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

The ONS has just released its latest antibody study results. They show that 90% of adults in England tested positive for the antibodies, as at week beginning 14th June (the figures will be higher now, of course). Wales is slightly higher, Scotland and NI a bit lower. Even in the 16-24 year old group, the figure is 60%, even though only 32% of that group had been jabbed at all and only 17% double-jabbed. We're immunising by infection in that group.

Now, testing positive for antibodies isn't a complete guarantee of good immunity, but it's a reasonable proxy. The plague is going to run out of victims before the most lurid predictions of case numbers can be reached, surely?

Summary here:

https://twitter.com/john_actuary/status/1412703549578960902

I am having real trouble reconciling 100k infections a day with even our current rate of vaccination for exactly that reason. I think that will prove highly pessimistic. I will be surprised if we get to 50k.

If it really is THAT infectious, you could perhaps have a very high daily number for say 10 days as it rips through all the unvaxxed - but then a very steep decline as it can't find fresh victims.

Although presumably vaxxed people can still test positive although the symptoms will or should be minimal for the vast majority.

Hence why hospitalisations remain the critical indicator.

Covid has lost the potency that caused us to close down the economy and borrow like we were at war.

It is a disease that will still cause death and misery, but not on a scale that required that war footing.

TOPPING said:

kinabalu said:

TOPPING said:

What a total knob Starmer is.

Reckless to open up but what about all the people who have to isolate?

WTAF? Utter dick.

Says the bloke who's repeatedly made the (good) point that he needs to break the habit of supporting the government.

Yes that is true. But as I also said just now, Boris, amazingly, managed to distil the essence of SKS' argument which was should face masks be mandatory on public transport. It was to hide that modest point that he started contradicting himself by saying we shouldn't open up now and we must stay locked down (was the clear implication) otherwise people will be forced to lock down.

Ok noted. Still, my suspicion now - because of your comment today and particularly its rather forceful and sweary tone - is that when you've been lambasting SKS for not opposing things it's had a lot to do with the fact that what he's not been opposing are things that YOU have been opposed to (eg instrusive lockdown restrictions).

It's only a suspicion, though, and it doesn't detract from the validity of the general point that he's been too much of a pussycat up to now. 100% agree with this and I'm glad it's changing. Gloves off, game on.

BTW, if anybody is looking for a post-Covid chateau in Normandy for a wedding or some other special gathering, my friend has now got the website up and running:

https://www.chateautercey.com/

Taz said:

Lol at this. All those clowns proclaiming Ardens brilliance when most of what she could achieve was based on simple geography.

It’s always been a marathon and not a sprint.

It's not even a marathon, short of something miraculous happening we will have to keep running indefinitely. So countries shouldn't only be thinking how do they get the vaccine now, but how do they ensure they get updated vaccines in volume everytime a new variant of concern emerges. That probably means make it yourselves or partner with countries that you can really trust. Every wealthy country should be investing in vaccine research and production for the long term.

Covers most of it I feel

TOPPING said:

kinabalu said:

Alphabet_Soup said:

MarqueeMark said:

tlg86 said:

I'm confused. Starmer started by saying we were being reckless. Now he seems to share the concerns of businesses who don't want people to have to self-isolate.

Labour are all over the shop in trying too find a political "line". Painfully transparent.

Starmer has to build a rainbow coalition of angry people ranging from zerocovidians on the one hand to loony libertarians on the other with a few soothing words for antivaxxers into the bargain. How else to win power?

He needs to keep as many as possible of those who voted Lab in 2019 and add onto this as many as possible of those who didn't.

Who says PB isn't the home of incisive political analysis?

Well it's sometimes good to pare back to the very essence of things. Keep people honest.

kinabalu said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

OllyT said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

MaxPB said:

Trigger warning for Labour supporters!

Beautiful. I am a Labour supporter and Scottish to boot but this doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I might put up our England bunting for the game tonight.

Although England are doing better than usual so far I was only thinking how few cars I've seen flying the flag. In previous tournaments every third or fourth car had one. I've only seen 2 in total so far this time. Same with houses, tiny fraction of the usual number. No idea if it's the same everywhere.

Lots of cars with England flags in SE London. Don't tend to get many houses with flags round here though.

Flag on house is a whole different order of things to flag on car.

Neither for me but what there is (for me) is an England shirt worn for every game with no post-modern irony whatsoever. I'm right behind this team. I would be anyway and it's made all the easier because of the vibe they emit. No egos, unshowy, organized and methodical, focused but not selfish or obsessed. Labour values, in other words. Not woke, mind, just bread and butter Labour values. The sort of team Keir Starmer would be sending out if he were in the dugout.

Mm.
Certainly less obviously full of absolute bellends than in the Sven era.

I take your political angle with the appropriate pinch of salt - but I also take the 'no egos' with a pinch of salt. There are some colossal egos in there, just perhaps not quite the size of the previous generation.

I was talking to my wife about this last night:
- first, why do footballers - or indeed any famous person who doesn't need to - have a Twitter account? The downside is far, far greater than the upside. Her view - which I liked - was that it's all about the sort of person who becomes famous. A famous footballers (or in most cases famous anything) has a self-belief you could cut diamond with. It doesn't cross their minds for a minute that people wouldn't want to know what they think about everything, all the time.
(Actually, I always liked Paul Scholes' approach. Never gave interviews. Doesn't, as far as I can see, have a twitter account, or at least not one which looks either a) used and b) genuine. He may, who knows, be a contemptible nobend in private. But at least he didn't feel the need to open up to the world remove any doubt.)
- second, footballers whose instinct on scoring is to find the nearest television camera and preen into it are contemptible, and, I suspect, not exactly human. Given a stadium-full of people cheering for something you've achieved, seeking out the virtual ones would not be an instinctive choice.

On the broader point - I'm quite comfortable with displays of patriotism, and indeed I'm pretty patriotic myself, but what I feel about this England team is - nothing. Doesn't move me at all. Nor, as it happens, does rugby or cricket, any more. Whereas covid has left some people without tastes of smell or taste, the last year has left without an ability to connect emotionally with sport. I feel a bit sad about this. I used to love international tournaments - at previous tournaments I would have been delighted to see England winning. Now, nothing. A nod that Harry Kane has indeed extended his large triangular head and nodded the ball into the net.
I'm happy for my friends and family, who still do set great store by seeing England win. And indeed I'm happy that complete strangers are happy. But the match itself leaves me unmoved. I'm interested, but not happy or sad at the result, apart from a numb sadness that it no longer makes me happy.

I'm actually going to an England T20 game in two weeks' time. I'm hoping this will rekindle my enthusiasm, but I'm fearful that it won't.

Cookie said:

TOPPING said:

gealbhan said:

Cookie said:

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Cookie said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

"Boris, do you want potatoes or fries?"

Well you see, we have a world-beating vaccine programme

Exactly. But not to worry, the vaccine bounce will be long gone by the time of the GE.

I'd say the vaccine bounce is gone already. It didn't come because people like getting pins stuck in them, it came because it offered a route out of this mess. Now the route out of this mess hasn't happened, and the prospect of getting out of this mess either ahead of other countries or indeed at all appears to be receding, so does the credit the government get for vaccinating people.
Two months ago vaccinations were going ahead at a goodly rate, the end appeared in sight and people were optimistic. Now, less so.
The 'end of covid' bounce might come, if the end of covid comes. Or it might not, if it doesn't.

Chief Executive of LHR this morning on the radio said "people were told that the vaccines would deliver freedom and all they can see is other countries ahead of us in allowing their vaccinated population to travel whereas we can't".

Vaccines have delivered a great deal of freedom, and will deliver more on 19th July.

And yet, we'll still have to self-isolate if we come into contact with a covid case, which will be a virtual certainty. Gavin Williamson has announced the end of school bubbles, but everyone in school who comes into contact with a covid case will face another ten days house arrest. Which is exactly the same situation as now. Already we're getting noises rowing back on exactly how much freedom we'll get on 19th July and exactly how permanent it will be.

Forgive me, I'm still glowering with resentment about my daughter missing another ten days of her childhood, with not much apparent prospect in sight of it springing to life again afterwards. I can see that objectively, we are freer now than we were in February. And it's great news that Hancock and Cummings have gone. But my anxiety that this is as good as it gets and that it will probably get worse again outweighs my optimism that we will finally see freedom. They're gearing up for another last minute change of heart, aren't they?

Correct. In fact spot on cookie. Freedom Day + isolate if told you have had contact is not Freedom Day at all. The government supporters on here are not smart enough to realise this is not what business/schools/anything anywhere needs to be back to normal, it’s Freedom Day postponed by stealth.

I thought there would not be isolation for those who have been double jabbed unless you actually test positive for Covid.

Not until mid-August at the earliest, is my understanding.

I get less exercised on this point as you basically have to actively participate in their games to get caught up in it.

Not entirely sure how it would even work anyway as people talk about getting phone call check ups but I certainly don't have a home phone in action anymore.

Sir Graham Brady has just been re-elected chair of the 1922 Committee. Has defeated a challenge from Heather Wheeler, widely seen as No10's candidate to oust him.

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1412749068909035520?s=20

maaarsh said:

Cookie said:

TOPPING said:

gealbhan said:

Cookie said:

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Cookie said:

kinabalu said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

"Boris, do you want potatoes or fries?"

Well you see, we have a world-beating vaccine programme

Exactly. But not to worry, the vaccine bounce will be long gone by the time of the GE.

I'd say the vaccine bounce is gone already. It didn't come because people like getting pins stuck in them, it came because it offered a route out of this mess. Now the route out of this mess hasn't happened, and the prospect of getting out of this mess either ahead of other countries or indeed at all appears to be receding, so does the credit the government get for vaccinating people.
Two months ago vaccinations were going ahead at a goodly rate, the end appeared in sight and people were optimistic. Now, less so.
The 'end of covid' bounce might come, if the end of covid comes. Or it might not, if it doesn't.

Chief Executive of LHR this morning on the radio said "people were told that the vaccines would deliver freedom and all they can see is other countries ahead of us in allowing their vaccinated population to travel whereas we can't".

Vaccines have delivered a great deal of freedom, and will deliver more on 19th July.

And yet, we'll still have to self-isolate if we come into contact with a covid case, which will be a virtual certainty. Gavin Williamson has announced the end of school bubbles, but everyone in school who comes into contact with a covid case will face another ten days house arrest. Which is exactly the same situation as now. Already we're getting noises rowing back on exactly how much freedom we'll get on 19th July and exactly how permanent it will be.

Forgive me, I'm still glowering with resentment about my daughter missing another ten days of her childhood, with not much apparent prospect in sight of it springing to life again afterwards. I can see that objectively, we are freer now than we were in February. And it's great news that Hancock and Cummings have gone. But my anxiety that this is as good as it gets and that it will probably get worse again outweighs my optimism that we will finally see freedom. They're gearing up for another last minute change of heart, aren't they?

Correct. In fact spot on cookie. Freedom Day + isolate if told you have had contact is not Freedom Day at all. The government supporters on here are not smart enough to realise this is not what business/schools/anything anywhere needs to be back to normal, it’s Freedom Day postponed by stealth.

I thought there would not be isolation for those who have been double jabbed unless you actually test positive for Covid.

Not until mid-August at the earliest, is my understanding.

I get less exercised on this point as you basically have to actively participate in their games to get caught up in it.

Not entirely sure how it would even work anyway as people talk about getting phone call check ups but I certainly don't have a home phone in action anymore.

Yes, I'm not sure either. I'm already wary of answering any phone calls from numbers I don't know.

Cookie said:

Leon said:

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Roger said:

I've not been following the pandemic in any sort of detail. Just listening to the news and government spokespeople. While our vaccine program was purring like a Ferrari Europe's were limping along like a Lada Riva with a puncture. Tory poster's on here have been crowing about our ingenuity and delighting in our good fortune at being-dare I say it-BRITISH!

1. FIRST in Europe for total number of cases.
2. FIRST in Europe for total number of deaths.
3. FIRST in Europe for total of NEW cases.
4. FIRST in Europe for total number of NEW deaths.

Roger, this is just total nonsense.
1. France and Russia have both had more cases
2. Russia has more deaths, on a per million analysis there are a host of countries ahead of us.
3. Russia has more new cases. And we do massively more testing than anyone else.
4. Total rubbish. In the last 7 days Italy, Germany and France (as well as Russia) have all had more deaths than us.

Why do you write this stuff?

I should perhaps have replaced 'Europe' with 'EU'. Had I done so the only number which is incorrect on YESTERDAY'S figures is France which had marginally more total cases than us.

Which would also have been laughably wrong. We’re not in the EU. Perhaps you missed that evolution, as you fumbled with your Blackberry under your tartan blanket, trying to tune into the Home Service

I think what Roger means is 'we did worse than Germany'.
Because surely he can't be expecting that Bulgaria, Slovenia, Croatia, Poland, Hungary, Czechia and so forth had more deaths than us in absolute terms. No-one who has even an ounce of maths in their body would expect that.

So, fair point Roger - the UK has had more covid than Germany.

Downthread someone suggested ‘Germany’ as an example of a country that handled the pandemic (so far) “really well”

Wtf?

Germany is the 19th largest country in the world by population

Going by Worldometer (flawed but indicative) Germany is 12th in the world for total cases and also 12th for total deaths. Bad.

Their economy in 2020 shrank by 5%. Also bad. And they still have Delta to come

Germany did better than some European countries (the UK for one) but worse than others. Globally it is nowhere near the top rank and is no kind of model

South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore are models. Perhaps oz and nz (but they have new issues now)

In Europe maybe Denmark? You soon run out of exemplars

Leon said:

Cookie said:

Leon said:

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Roger said:

I've not been following the pandemic in any sort of detail. Just listening to the news and government spokespeople. While our vaccine program was purring like a Ferrari Europe's were limping along like a Lada Riva with a puncture. Tory poster's on here have been crowing about our ingenuity and delighting in our good fortune at being-dare I say it-BRITISH!

1. FIRST in Europe for total number of cases.
2. FIRST in Europe for total number of deaths.
3. FIRST in Europe for total of NEW cases.
4. FIRST in Europe for total number of NEW deaths.

Roger, this is just total nonsense.
1. France and Russia have both had more cases
2. Russia has more deaths, on a per million analysis there are a host of countries ahead of us.
3. Russia has more new cases. And we do massively more testing than anyone else.
4. Total rubbish. In the last 7 days Italy, Germany and France (as well as Russia) have all had more deaths than us.

Why do you write this stuff?

I should perhaps have replaced 'Europe' with 'EU'. Had I done so the only number which is incorrect on YESTERDAY'S figures is France which had marginally more total cases than us.

Which would also have been laughably wrong. We’re not in the EU. Perhaps you missed that evolution, as you fumbled with your Blackberry under your tartan blanket, trying to tune into the Home Service

I think what Roger means is 'we did worse than Germany'.
Because surely he can't be expecting that Bulgaria, Slovenia, Croatia, Poland, Hungary, Czechia and so forth had more deaths than us in absolute terms. No-one who has even an ounce of maths in their body would expect that.

So, fair point Roger - the UK has had more covid than Germany.

Downthread someone suggested ‘Germany’ as an example of a country that handled the pandemic (so far) “really well”

Wtf?

Germany is the 19th largest country in the world by population

Going by Worldometer (flawed but indicative) Germany is 12th in the world for total cases and also 12th for total deaths. Bad.

Their economy in 2020 shrank by 5%. Also bad. And they still have Delta to come

Germany did better than some European countries (the UK for one) but worse than others. Globally it is nowhere near the top rank and is no kind of model

South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore are models. Perhaps oz and nz (but they have new issues now)

In Europe maybe Denmark? You soon run out of exemplars

Singapore can act in ways our lockdown fetishers can only dream of

Cookie said:

kinabalu said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

OllyT said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

MaxPB said:

Trigger warning for Labour supporters!

Beautiful. I am a Labour supporter and Scottish to boot but this doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I might put up our England bunting for the game tonight.

Although England are doing better than usual so far I was only thinking how few cars I've seen flying the flag. In previous tournaments every third or fourth car had one. I've only seen 2 in total so far this time. Same with houses, tiny fraction of the usual number. No idea if it's the same everywhere.

Lots of cars with England flags in SE London. Don't tend to get many houses with flags round here though.

Flag on house is a whole different order of things to flag on car.

Neither for me but what there is (for me) is an England shirt worn for every game with no post-modern irony whatsoever. I'm right behind this team. I would be anyway and it's made all the easier because of the vibe they emit. No egos, unshowy, organized and methodical, focused but not selfish or obsessed. Labour values, in other words. Not woke, mind, just bread and butter Labour values. The sort of team Keir Starmer would be sending out if he were in the dugout.

Mm.
Certainly less obviously full of absolute bellends than in the Sven era.

I take your political angle with the appropriate pinch of salt - but I also take the 'no egos' with a pinch of salt. There are some colossal egos in there, just perhaps not quite the size of the previous generation.

I was talking to my wife about this last night:
- first, why do footballers - or indeed any famous person who doesn't need to - have a Twitter account? The downside is far, far greater than the upside. Her view - which I liked - was that it's all about the sort of person who becomes famous. A famous footballers (or in most cases famous anything) has a self-belief you could cut diamond with. It doesn't cross their minds for a minute that people wouldn't want to know what they think about everything, all the time.
(Actually, I always liked Paul Scholes' approach. Never gave interviews. Doesn't, as far as I can see, have a twitter account, or at least not one which looks either a) used and b) genuine. He may, who knows, be a contemptible nobend in private. But at least he didn't feel the need to open up to the world remove any doubt.)
- second, footballers whose instinct on scoring is to find the nearest television camera and preen into it are contemptible, and, I suspect, not exactly human. Given a stadium-full of people cheering for something you've achieved, seeking out the virtual ones would not be an instinctive choice.

On the broader point - I'm quite comfortable with displays of patriotism, and indeed I'm pretty patriotic myself, but what I feel about this England team is - nothing. Doesn't move me at all. Nor, as it happens, does rugby or cricket, any more. Whereas covid has left some people without tastes of smell or taste, the last year has left without an ability to connect emotionally with sport. I feel a bit sad about this. I used to love international tournaments - at previous tournaments I would have been delighted to see England winning. Now, nothing. A nod that Harry Kane has indeed extended his large triangular head and nodded the ball into the net.
I'm happy for my friends and family, who still do set great store by seeing England win. And indeed I'm happy that complete strangers are happy. But the match itself leaves me unmoved. I'm interested, but not happy or sad at the result, apart from a numb sadness that it no longer makes me happy.

I'm actually going to an England T20 game in two weeks' time. I'm hoping this will rekindle my enthusiasm, but I'm fearful that it won't.

Sorry to hear this. I had lost interest in sport but it's coming back now. Football, tennis, golf, racing, F1, all of these.

As for this England team, I like them a lot. Footballwise and their spirit/aura.

So much better than the days of the WAGS, and 'what the fuck's wrong with Rooney?' and 'Gerrard and Lampard can't play together' and John Terry giving it the big I am and parking his monstrosity in disabled spots.

"Surrender Bill"..."Freedom Day"...you gotta wonder whether Johnsonism might be vulnerable to an opposition that appeals to intellect, or just to the post-infant mind. Or perhaps this is wishful thinking.

Alphabet_Soup said:

MarqueeMark said:

tlg86 said:

I'm confused. Starmer started by saying we were being reckless. Now he seems to share the concerns of businesses who don't want people to have to self-isolate.

Labour are all over the shop in trying too find a political "line". Painfully transparent.

Starmer has to build a rainbow coalition of angry people ranging from zerocovidians on the one hand to loony libertarians on the other with a few soothing words for antivaxxers into the bargain. How else to win power?

Are you saying he can't win power then? Because doing it like that seems a bit of a tall order. Perhaps he just has to wait, while building up an attack capability. When the enemy thinks you are near, be far away. When the enemy thinks you are far away, be near.

Leon said:

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Roger said:

I've not been following the pandemic in any sort of detail. Just listening to the news and government spokespeople. While our vaccine program was purring like a Ferrari Europe's were limping along like a Lada Riva with a puncture. Tory poster's on here have been crowing about our ingenuity and delighting in our good fortune at being-dare I say it-BRITISH!

1. FIRST in Europe for total number of cases.
2. FIRST in Europe for total number of deaths.
3. FIRST in Europe for total of NEW cases.
4. FIRST in Europe for total number of NEW deaths.

Roger, this is just total nonsense.
1. France and Russia have both had more cases
2. Russia has more deaths, on a per million analysis there are a host of countries ahead of us.
3. Russia has more new cases. And we do massively more testing than anyone else.
4. Total rubbish. In the last 7 days Italy, Germany and France (as well as Russia) have all had more deaths than us.

Why do you write this stuff?

I should perhaps have replaced 'Europe' with 'EU'. Had I done so the only number which is incorrect on YESTERDAY'S figures is France which had marginally more total cases than us.

Which would also have been laughably wrong. We’re not in the EU. Perhaps you missed that evolution, as you fumbled with your Blackberry under your tartan blanket, trying to tune into the Home Service

I am surprised that Brexiteers haven't insisted we go back to calling Radio 2 "The Home Service", which they can listen to on their new fangled "wireless", particularly enjoying the sublime commentary of John Arlott. When the odd run is scored they will applaud politely and mutter "hear hear" with their pipe of baccy clenched between their teeth, whilst thinking it is all jolly good that we are back in the 1950s with ration books and good old navy blue passports.

DavidL said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

The ONS has just released its latest antibody study results. They show that 90% of adults in England tested positive for the antibodies, as at week beginning 14th June (the figures will be higher now, of course). Wales is slightly higher, Scotland and NI a bit lower. Even in the 16-24 year old group, the figure is 60%, even though only 32% of that group had been jabbed at all and only 17% double-jabbed. We're immunising by infection in that group.

Now, testing positive for antibodies isn't a complete guarantee of good immunity, but it's a reasonable proxy. The plague is going to run out of victims before the most lurid predictions of case numbers can be reached, surely?

Summary here:

https://twitter.com/john_actuary/status/1412703549578960902

I am having real trouble reconciling 100k infections a day with even our current rate of vaccination for exactly that reason. I think that will prove highly pessimistic. I will be surprised if we get to 50k.

50K and 100K are only one doubling interval away - what is that? 10 days?

Leon said:

Cookie said:

Leon said:

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Roger said:

I've not been following the pandemic in any sort of detail. Just listening to the news and government spokespeople. While our vaccine program was purring like a Ferrari Europe's were limping along like a Lada Riva with a puncture. Tory poster's on here have been crowing about our ingenuity and delighting in our good fortune at being-dare I say it-BRITISH!

1. FIRST in Europe for total number of cases.
2. FIRST in Europe for total number of deaths.
3. FIRST in Europe for total of NEW cases.
4. FIRST in Europe for total number of NEW deaths.

Roger, this is just total nonsense.
1. France and Russia have both had more cases
2. Russia has more deaths, on a per million analysis there are a host of countries ahead of us.
3. Russia has more new cases. And we do massively more testing than anyone else.
4. Total rubbish. In the last 7 days Italy, Germany and France (as well as Russia) have all had more deaths than us.

Why do you write this stuff?

I should perhaps have replaced 'Europe' with 'EU'. Had I done so the only number which is incorrect on YESTERDAY'S figures is France which had marginally more total cases than us.

Which would also have been laughably wrong. We’re not in the EU. Perhaps you missed that evolution, as you fumbled with your Blackberry under your tartan blanket, trying to tune into the Home Service

I think what Roger means is 'we did worse than Germany'.
Because surely he can't be expecting that Bulgaria, Slovenia, Croatia, Poland, Hungary, Czechia and so forth had more deaths than us in absolute terms. No-one who has even an ounce of maths in their body would expect that.

So, fair point Roger - the UK has had more covid than Germany.

Downthread someone suggested ‘Germany’ as an example of a country that handled the pandemic (so far) “really well”

Wtf?

Germany is the 19th largest country in the world by population

Going by Worldometer (flawed but indicative) Germany is 12th in the world for total cases and also 12th for total deaths. Bad.

Their economy in 2020 shrank by 5%. Also bad. And they still have Delta to come

Germany did better than some European countries (the UK for one) but worse than others. Globally it is nowhere near the top rank and is no kind of model

South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore are models. Perhaps oz and nz (but they have new issues now)

In Europe maybe Denmark? You soon run out of exemplars

Of the G7 nations Germany and Japan did the best, Germany locked down relatively early, certainly compared to the USA and us, had an effective track and trace and has a far better vaccination rate now than say New Zealand, Australia and France.

Though globally Singapore is probably the best example, amongst the top nations in terms of vaccination rate and has had just 6 Covid deaths per million, compared to a global rate of 514

Nigel_Foremain said:

Leon said:

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Roger said:

I've not been following the pandemic in any sort of detail. Just listening to the news and government spokespeople. While our vaccine program was purring like a Ferrari Europe's were limping along like a Lada Riva with a puncture. Tory poster's on here have been crowing about our ingenuity and delighting in our good fortune at being-dare I say it-BRITISH!

1. FIRST in Europe for total number of cases.
2. FIRST in Europe for total number of deaths.
3. FIRST in Europe for total of NEW cases.
4. FIRST in Europe for total number of NEW deaths.

Roger, this is just total nonsense.
1. France and Russia have both had more cases
2. Russia has more deaths, on a per million analysis there are a host of countries ahead of us.
3. Russia has more new cases. And we do massively more testing than anyone else.
4. Total rubbish. In the last 7 days Italy, Germany and France (as well as Russia) have all had more deaths than us.

Why do you write this stuff?

I should perhaps have replaced 'Europe' with 'EU'. Had I done so the only number which is incorrect on YESTERDAY'S figures is France which had marginally more total cases than us.

Which would also have been laughably wrong. We’re not in the EU. Perhaps you missed that evolution, as you fumbled with your Blackberry under your tartan blanket, trying to tune into the Home Service

I am surprised that Brexiteers haven't insisted we go back to calling Radio 2 "The Home Service", which they can listen to on their new fangled "wireless", particularly enjoying the sublime commentary of John Arlott. When the odd run is scored they will applaud politely and mutter "hear hear" with their pipe of baccy clenched between their teeth, whilst thinking it is all jolly good that we are back in the 1950s with ration books and good old navy blue passports.

It must be hard when the enemy doesn't conform to the stereotypes that you wish to ascribe to them.

AnExileinD4 said:

Anabobazina said:

Alistair said:

Anabobazina said:

HYUFD said:

Anabobazina said:

MaxPB said:

Just had a meeting where someone explained lockdowns using the paradox of thrift. It was a very interesting concept and it probably applies. He thinks certain countries will be liable to fall into semi-permanent restrictions because they will be unwilling to use their "savings" at any point in time thinking that there will always be some better moment to spend them and over time everyone loses from that.

New Zealand?

New Zealand has one of the lowest vaccination rates in the developed world now, not only lower than England, Wales and Scotland, NI and Ireland but lower than Germany, France, the Netherlands, Spain, Italy, Canada, Israel, Australia and Japan and even lower than Brazil.

Ardern does not look as good as she did a few months ago on Covid

Indeed. Fair comment.

NZ (and Aus) utterly fucked up vaccines.

Imagine if they were only a month behind the UK in vaccine rollout (a perfectly feasible figure).

They would have been the perfect zero covid poster child: open clubs, packed stadiums and full unlocking just around the corner.

Instead they've got themselves at the back of the queue and it will be months and months before they are vaccinated.

It is beyond bizarre. The only thing I can ascribe it to is complacency. But Jacinda doesn’t seem the type.

If only a small minority wish to travel outside their borders (and for many in Australia that do, it was only as far as Bali), are happy with the status quo and believe that foreign = covid = death, then it is hard to see how change will happen. Opening borders will lead to Covid deaths and accepting that will happen requires a mental change which seems unlikely at this point. Trashing vaccines has also become a national sport in Australia and unwillingness to be vaccinated means that the critical mass of immunity will not be there.

Hong Kong is in a similar position. But with the government pushing the near worthless Chinese vaccines.

They are similar to western ones at preventing serious illness and death. Less effective at preventing transmission though. To call them near worthless is absurd.

OnlyLivingBoy said:

Any other PB'ers got any flags up?

Yes.

Roger said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Roger said:

Leon said:

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Roger said:

I've not been following the pandemic in any sort of detail. Just listening to the news and government spokespeople. While our vaccine program was purring like a Ferrari Europe's were limping along like a Lada Riva with a puncture. Tory poster's on here have been crowing about our ingenuity and delighting in our good fortune at being-dare I say it-BRITISH!

1. FIRST in Europe for total number of cases.
2. FIRST in Europe for total number of deaths.
3. FIRST in Europe for total of NEW cases.
4. FIRST in Europe for total number of NEW deaths.

Roger, this is just total nonsense.
1. France and Russia have both had more cases
2. Russia has more deaths, on a per million analysis there are a host of countries ahead of us.
3. Russia has more new cases. And we do massively more testing than anyone else.
4. Total rubbish. In the last 7 days Italy, Germany and France (as well as Russia) have all had more deaths than us.

Why do you write this stuff?

I should perhaps have replaced 'Europe' with 'EU'. Had I done so the only number which is incorrect on YESTERDAY'S figures is France which had marginally more total cases than us.

Which would also have been laughably wrong. We’re not in the EU. Perhaps you missed that evolution, as you fumbled with your Blackberry under your tartan blanket, trying to tune into the Home Service

That's why in my original post I changed "EU" for the more generic "Europe". Had I said 'FIRST in the EU....' some pedant would say 'we're not in the EU'.

If you're suggesting my post is invalid because it's using statistics selectively I'd suggest reading the small print on your mothballed Red Bus.

(or not so small print)

Your claim is a lie though, no ifs or buts.



New deaths in the UK are nothing like they are in the EU and haven't been for months. Thank goodness for them the EU are belatedly catching up with the UK in vaccinations and halting deaths as a result. Plus they've adopted our first dose first strategy which is working.

As for the Red Bus it has been honoured in full. The NHS has got the £350mn per week promised and then some!

'Yesterday' is the last day with complete figures. Click it at your convenience and then a brief apology addressed to Carter Ruck. Most statistics are selective. You're obviously not familiar with advertising.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

The seven-day average, and per capita, is a far better way of looking at it. Less sensitive to incomplete data and reporting variations. Click "2 Days ago" if you don't believe me.

RobD said:

AnExileinD4 said:

Anabobazina said:

Alistair said:

Anabobazina said:

HYUFD said:

Anabobazina said:

MaxPB said:

Just had a meeting where someone explained lockdowns using the paradox of thrift. It was a very interesting concept and it probably applies. He thinks certain countries will be liable to fall into semi-permanent restrictions because they will be unwilling to use their "savings" at any point in time thinking that there will always be some better moment to spend them and over time everyone loses from that.

New Zealand?

New Zealand has one of the lowest vaccination rates in the developed world now, not only lower than England, Wales and Scotland, NI and Ireland but lower than Germany, France, the Netherlands, Spain, Italy, Canada, Israel, Australia and Japan and even lower than Brazil.

Ardern does not look as good as she did a few months ago on Covid

Indeed. Fair comment.

NZ (and Aus) utterly fucked up vaccines.

Imagine if they were only a month behind the UK in vaccine rollout (a perfectly feasible figure).

They would have been the perfect zero covid poster child: open clubs, packed stadiums and full unlocking just around the corner.

Instead they've got themselves at the back of the queue and it will be months and months before they are vaccinated.

It is beyond bizarre. The only thing I can ascribe it to is complacency. But Jacinda doesn’t seem the type.

If only a small minority wish to travel outside their borders (and for many in Australia that do, it was only as far as Bali), are happy with the status quo and believe that foreign = covid = death, then it is hard to see how change will happen. Opening borders will lead to Covid deaths and accepting that will happen requires a mental change which seems unlikely at this point. Trashing vaccines has also become a national sport in Australia and unwillingness to be vaccinated means that the critical mass of immunity will not be there.

Hong Kong is in a similar position. But with the government pushing the near worthless Chinese vaccines.

They are similar to western ones at preventing serious illness and death. Less effective at preventing transmission though. To call them near worthless is absurd.

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/singapore-not-counting-sinovac-shots-covid-19-vaccination-tally-2021-07-07/

Have a nice day.

AnExileinD4 said:

RobD said:

AnExileinD4 said:

Anabobazina said:

Alistair said:

Anabobazina said:

HYUFD said:

Anabobazina said:

MaxPB said:

Just had a meeting where someone explained lockdowns using the paradox of thrift. It was a very interesting concept and it probably applies. He thinks certain countries will be liable to fall into semi-permanent restrictions because they will be unwilling to use their "savings" at any point in time thinking that there will always be some better moment to spend them and over time everyone loses from that.

New Zealand?

New Zealand has one of the lowest vaccination rates in the developed world now, not only lower than England, Wales and Scotland, NI and Ireland but lower than Germany, France, the Netherlands, Spain, Italy, Canada, Israel, Australia and Japan and even lower than Brazil.

Ardern does not look as good as she did a few months ago on Covid

Indeed. Fair comment.

NZ (and Aus) utterly fucked up vaccines.

Imagine if they were only a month behind the UK in vaccine rollout (a perfectly feasible figure).

They would have been the perfect zero covid poster child: open clubs, packed stadiums and full unlocking just around the corner.

Instead they've got themselves at the back of the queue and it will be months and months before they are vaccinated.

It is beyond bizarre. The only thing I can ascribe it to is complacency. But Jacinda doesn’t seem the type.

If only a small minority wish to travel outside their borders (and for many in Australia that do, it was only as far as Bali), are happy with the status quo and believe that foreign = covid = death, then it is hard to see how change will happen. Opening borders will lead to Covid deaths and accepting that will happen requires a mental change which seems unlikely at this point. Trashing vaccines has also become a national sport in Australia and unwillingness to be vaccinated means that the critical mass of immunity will not be there.

Hong Kong is in a similar position. But with the government pushing the near worthless Chinese vaccines.

They are similar to western ones at preventing serious illness and death. Less effective at preventing transmission though. To call them near worthless is absurd.

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/singapore-not-counting-sinovac-shots-covid-19-vaccination-tally-2021-07-07/

Have a nice day.

Look at the efficacy data at where it is being used.

Andy_Cooke said:

Cookie said:

another_richard said:

CarlottaVance said:

Around 9 in 10 *adults* in the UK would have tested positive for antibodies against coronavirus in the week beginning 14 June.

Latest @ONS estimates:

England - 89.8% (was 86.6%)
Wales - 91.8% (was 88.7%)
Scotland - 84.7% (was 79.1%)
N. Ireland - 87.2% (was 85.4%)

https://twitter.com/fact_covid/status/1412692724604669952?s=20

Biggest jump in Scotland (+5.6% vs England +3.2%, Wales +3.1, NI +1.8%) and still lowest overall.

Vaccination levels between 14/06 and 20/06 were:

England 79.0% to 81.6% change on previous week +2.4 to +2.9%
Wales 87.9% to 88.7% +1.3% to +0.9%
Scotland 79.6% to 82.3% +2.8% to + 3.0%
N Ireland 76.8% to 78.5% +1.6% to +1.9%

Which would suggest about 40% have acquired immunity in England but only about 15% in Scotland. Which helps explain why Scotland has been hit harder than England by Delta and why in London its only had a marginal effect despite the lower levels of vaccination.

Northern Ireland looks to have anti-bodies than vaccination and previous infection would suggest.

That's hugely encouraging - suggests we're probably comfortably over 90% now.
Is there data on how many children have antibodies? My finger in the air estimate is about 20%.

I'm personally guessing 30-40%, but that's also wet finger in the air.
(Based on the 16-24s with antibodies at the start of March, which was prior to most of them having any chance for a jab).
Of course, some will have had antibody levels decay, but they will still have T-cell protection and can generate tailored antibodies quickly on exposure, so while they'd be infected, the viral load would be hopefully very low and far more likely to be asymptomatic or very mildly symptomatic, and their rate of passing it one would be much curtailed.

I thought we had data on that.

Didn't we have an animation of it the other day?

Roger said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Roger said:

Leon said:

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Roger said:

I've not been following the pandemic in any sort of detail. Just listening to the news and government spokespeople. While our vaccine program was purring like a Ferrari Europe's were limping along like a Lada Riva with a puncture. Tory poster's on here have been crowing about our ingenuity and delighting in our good fortune at being-dare I say it-BRITISH!

1. FIRST in Europe for total number of cases.
2. FIRST in Europe for total number of deaths.
3. FIRST in Europe for total of NEW cases.
4. FIRST in Europe for total number of NEW deaths.

Roger, this is just total nonsense.
1. France and Russia have both had more cases
2. Russia has more deaths, on a per million analysis there are a host of countries ahead of us.
3. Russia has more new cases. And we do massively more testing than anyone else.
4. Total rubbish. In the last 7 days Italy, Germany and France (as well as Russia) have all had more deaths than us.

Why do you write this stuff?

I should perhaps have replaced 'Europe' with 'EU'. Had I done so the only number which is incorrect on YESTERDAY'S figures is France which had marginally more total cases than us.

Which would also have been laughably wrong. We’re not in the EU. Perhaps you missed that evolution, as you fumbled with your Blackberry under your tartan blanket, trying to tune into the Home Service

That's why in my original post I changed "EU" for the more generic "Europe". Had I said 'FIRST in the EU....' some pedant would say 'we're not in the EU'.

If you're suggesting my post is invalid because it's using statistics selectively I'd suggest reading the small print on your mothballed Red Bus.

(or not so small print)

Your claim is a lie though, no ifs or buts.



New deaths in the UK are nothing like they are in the EU and haven't been for months. Thank goodness for them the EU are belatedly catching up with the UK in vaccinations and halting deaths as a result. Plus they've adopted our first dose first strategy which is working.

As for the Red Bus it has been honoured in full. The NHS has got the £350mn per week promised and then some!

'Yesterday' is the last day with complete figures. Click it at your convenience and then a brief apology addressed to Carter Ruck. Most statistics are selective as Dominic Cummings will tell you

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

You can Carter Ruck off.

Your "statistics" are a lie plain and simple. And a 7-day average for figures is used for good reason given the way different countries report different statistics on different days.

AnExileinD4 said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Leon said:

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Roger said:

I've not been following the pandemic in any sort of detail. Just listening to the news and government spokespeople. While our vaccine program was purring like a Ferrari Europe's were limping along like a Lada Riva with a puncture. Tory poster's on here have been crowing about our ingenuity and delighting in our good fortune at being-dare I say it-BRITISH!

1. FIRST in Europe for total number of cases.
2. FIRST in Europe for total number of deaths.
3. FIRST in Europe for total of NEW cases.
4. FIRST in Europe for total number of NEW deaths.

Roger, this is just total nonsense.
1. France and Russia have both had more cases
2. Russia has more deaths, on a per million analysis there are a host of countries ahead of us.
3. Russia has more new cases. And we do massively more testing than anyone else.
4. Total rubbish. In the last 7 days Italy, Germany and France (as well as Russia) have all had more deaths than us.

Why do you write this stuff?

I should perhaps have replaced 'Europe' with 'EU'. Had I done so the only number which is incorrect on YESTERDAY'S figures is France which had marginally more total cases than us.

Which would also have been laughably wrong. We’re not in the EU. Perhaps you missed that evolution, as you fumbled with your Blackberry under your tartan blanket, trying to tune into the Home Service

I am surprised that Brexiteers haven't insisted we go back to calling Radio 2 "The Home Service", which they can listen to on their new fangled "wireless", particularly enjoying the sublime commentary of John Arlott. When the odd run is scored they will applaud politely and mutter "hear hear" with their pipe of baccy clenched between their teeth, whilst thinking it is all jolly good that we are back in the 1950s with ration books and good old navy blue passports.

It must be hard when the enemy doesn't conform to the stereotypes that you wish to ascribe to them.

Well, I don't regard my fellow Britons as enemies, even the gullible ones that thought Brexit worthwhile or anything more than pointless, or even the WW2 obsessives who see everything through the prism of "friends and enemies" lol!. As for my description, you shouldn't take offence so easily; it was a caricature that I thought @Leon would find amusing, or possibly irritating, depending on which persona he is today.

Nigel_Foremain said:

Leon said:

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Roger said:

I've not been following the pandemic in any sort of detail. Just listening to the news and government spokespeople. While our vaccine program was purring like a Ferrari Europe's were limping along like a Lada Riva with a puncture. Tory poster's on here have been crowing about our ingenuity and delighting in our good fortune at being-dare I say it-BRITISH!

1. FIRST in Europe for total number of cases.
2. FIRST in Europe for total number of deaths.
3. FIRST in Europe for total of NEW cases.
4. FIRST in Europe for total number of NEW deaths.

Roger, this is just total nonsense.
1. France and Russia have both had more cases
2. Russia has more deaths, on a per million analysis there are a host of countries ahead of us.
3. Russia has more new cases. And we do massively more testing than anyone else.
4. Total rubbish. In the last 7 days Italy, Germany and France (as well as Russia) have all had more deaths than us.

Why do you write this stuff?

I should perhaps have replaced 'Europe' with 'EU'. Had I done so the only number which is incorrect on YESTERDAY'S figures is France which had marginally more total cases than us.

Which would also have been laughably wrong. We’re not in the EU. Perhaps you missed that evolution, as you fumbled with your Blackberry under your tartan blanket, trying to tune into the Home Service

I am surprised that Brexiteers haven't insisted we go back to calling Radio 2 "The Home Service", which they can listen to on their new fangled "wireless", particularly enjoying the sublime commentary of John Arlott. When the odd run is scored they will applaud politely and mutter "hear hear" with their pipe of baccy clenched between their teeth, whilst thinking it is all jolly good that we are back in the 1950s with ration books and good old navy blue passports.

I’ve met millions of Brexiteers of all stripes. From lunatic eco-Leavers to stereotypical chav Leavers to super-posh ducal Leavers. I’ve never met the archetype you describe here. Not once. I’m sure they exist outside your head, but they are rare

The stereotype you do constantly encounter is the middle class, BBC watching, London based, Tuscany-going Remoaner who has been slightly unhinged by Brexit. You encounter them constantly and you can spot them a mile off. However they may be so conspicuous just because they are so hysterical on Twitter

Starmer seems as confused as Rog...

Boris is reckless as we are opening up too fast, but also too slow because isolation rules will mean people lose their summer and business struggle for staff....if we just opened some windows for better ventilation and paid some of the 80% wagging off isolation, that would sort it.

MattW said:

OldKingCole said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Carnyx said:

OldKingCole said:

Cyclefree said:

Nigelb said:

Cyclefree said:

Foxy said:

Cyclefree said:

Gardenwalker said:

FPT

My issue with China, apart from the way it treats its own people, is that it advances the authoritarian, anti-democratic surveillance state as a model of development.

Ultimately, that’s a threat to our way of life, or perhaps our children’s way of life.

One of the best things Britain can do, in my opinion, is better uphold democracy, liberty and the rule of law in *this* country, thereby acting as an example to others.

We did this quite well for a hundred years or so.

Fun fact, I was taught by someone later outed as a Chinese spy at University.

Fat chance when we've got Sunak wanting a more "nuanced" relationship with China, "nuanced" meaning "we promise we won't ever criticise you".

The tables have turned since the 19th century. We now allow China to buy up and modernise our infrastructure, and are reliant on Chinese capital and investment.

Gardenwalker said:

Cyclefree said:

Gardenwalker said:

FPT

My issue with China, apart from the way it treats its own people, is that it advances the authoritarian, anti-democratic surveillance state as a model of development.

Ultimately, that’s a threat to our way of life, or perhaps our children’s way of life.

One of the best things Britain can do, in my opinion, is better uphold democracy, liberty and the rule of law in *this* country, thereby acting as an example to others.

We did this quite well for a hundred years or so.

Fun fact, I was taught by someone later outed as a Chinese spy at University.

Fat chance when we've got Sunak wanting a more "nuanced" relationship with China, "nuanced" meaning "we promise we won't ever criticise you".

We do have to live with China somehow. We can’t wish it away. Therefore, I’m reserving judgment on Sunak’s comments.

I don’t even especially think it necessary for the govt to “criticise” China, but I do want it to promote our values, and protect our strategic industries and technologies.

There is a difference between living with a country and bending over and holding our ankles.

Making pacts with the devil is never a good idea. And yes I do believe China under the current regime is a devil. It is a threat to freedom and liberty and democracy. The more we depend on it, the more that will threaten our freedom, liberty and democracy.

Except that the move is now (albeit slight so far) away from dependence. The recent sharp spike in transport costs, and the massive delays in getting some types of goods out of China, have opened quite a few peoples eyes, irrespective of any human rights objections.
Sunak and the government will be judged by their deeds rather than his words; I don't have any great confidence in them either, but we'll see.

I hope so.

Not content with persecuting Uighurs in China, it is now going after Uighurs who have managed to escape abroad.

China is IMO an evil regime and we should sup with them with a very long spoon indeed, if we have to sup with them at all.

I forget where I read it, but I found somewhere a suggestion ..... from someone who thought about these things ..... that today's Chinese leaders may describe themselves as Communists, but they are in fact in the long tradition of Emperors, and that they, perhaps subconsciously, believe that the Han are the superior group in humanity, and that everyone else should try to become Han, or to be made Han.

For their own good!

That's not saying that I disagree with Ms Cyclefree, that we should be very, very cautious in our dealing with the Chinese Government. I'm say that we ought to be very careful in our dealing with any Chinese Government, and that caution should take into account the fact that while the current Government may be Communist, it's still Chinese, and remembers the indignities heaped upon the country by 19th & early 20th Century Westerners.

And a somewhat belated Good Morning everyone!

Morning! Just reading a history of the siege of the German base in Tsingtao (as it was called then) by the Japanese in WW1. The Germans just rocked up in the 1890s and said 'we'll have our base here, thank you very much' - in the ensuing disputes, they paid serious attention only to the other Western (incl Russia) governments.

Which reminds me, the Japanese also were honorary Westerners. Which puts an interesting light, from the Chine3se point of view, on the current discussions in Japan over whether to deal with the Taiwan issue by allying with the USA.

Most people do forget - or never knew - that the Japanese were our allies in WW1. I have a fascinating account by a soldier of the machine gun corps crossing the Mediterranean from Marseille to Egypt in 1918 and their ship being protected by a couple of Japanese destroyers hunting for Austro-Hungarian submarines.

Why the Japanese changed sides is also fascinating. According to an Australian expert (at least, that was how he was introduced) at the River Kwai in Thailand post WWI the USA didn't want the British 'interfering' in North Pacific affairs.

Late 19C is an equally interesting period of history in the Pacific.

The USA did not have a serious navy until the very late Victorian period, and were actually outmatched by South American countries for a good time before that due to an arms race funded by guano. There was no need, and Congress kept having high ambitions then refusing the necessary budget.

And Japan got into bed with the UK for naval technology, as the RN was still the hegemonic power, and the US was predicted as their main Pacific rival. Good way to avoid a war with the USA at a time the USA had just knocked the Spanish over.

So a number of the Japanese ships that wiped out the Russian fleet in 1905 were UK built, much of the key Japanese Naval Staff were UK trained or RN-inpired, and there were a number of UK observers present at the battle of Tsushima.

I think that's all about right.

Oh yes, the cooperation extended into and beyond WW1 etc. Supply of post-Dreadnought ships and designs. Like those new-fangled aircraft carrier things. And, unofficially on the part of one or two folk who, er, didn't quite keep up with changing times, into WW2 ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Forbes-Sempill,_19th_Lord_Sempill
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Rutland

Leon said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Leon said:

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Roger said:

I've not been following the pandemic in any sort of detail. Just listening to the news and government spokespeople. While our vaccine program was purring like a Ferrari Europe's were limping along like a Lada Riva with a puncture. Tory poster's on here have been crowing about our ingenuity and delighting in our good fortune at being-dare I say it-BRITISH!

1. FIRST in Europe for total number of cases.
2. FIRST in Europe for total number of deaths.
3. FIRST in Europe for total of NEW cases.
4. FIRST in Europe for total number of NEW deaths.

Roger, this is just total nonsense.
1. France and Russia have both had more cases
2. Russia has more deaths, on a per million analysis there are a host of countries ahead of us.
3. Russia has more new cases. And we do massively more testing than anyone else.
4. Total rubbish. In the last 7 days Italy, Germany and France (as well as Russia) have all had more deaths than us.

Why do you write this stuff?

I should perhaps have replaced 'Europe' with 'EU'. Had I done so the only number which is incorrect on YESTERDAY'S figures is France which had marginally more total cases than us.

Which would also have been laughably wrong. We’re not in the EU. Perhaps you missed that evolution, as you fumbled with your Blackberry under your tartan blanket, trying to tune into the Home Service

I am surprised that Brexiteers haven't insisted we go back to calling Radio 2 "The Home Service", which they can listen to on their new fangled "wireless", particularly enjoying the sublime commentary of John Arlott. When the odd run is scored they will applaud politely and mutter "hear hear" with their pipe of baccy clenched between their teeth, whilst thinking it is all jolly good that we are back in the 1950s with ration books and good old navy blue passports.

I’ve met millions of Brexiteers of all stripes. From lunatic eco-Leavers to stereotypical chav Leavers to super-posh ducal Leavers. I’ve never met the archetype you describe here. Not once. I’m sure they exist outside your head, but they are rare

The stereotype you do constantly encounter is the middle class, BBC watching, London based, Tuscany-going Remoaner who has been slightly unhinged by Brexit. You encounter them constantly and you can spot them a mile off. However they may be so conspicuous just because they are so hysterical on Twitter

Is a Tuscany-going Remoaner any worse than a Mallorca-going global-travelling Leaver?

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

HYUFD said:

Leon said:

Cookie said:

Leon said:

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Roger said:

I've not been following the pandemic in any sort of detail. Just listening to the news and government spokespeople. While our vaccine program was purring like a Ferrari Europe's were limping along like a Lada Riva with a puncture. Tory poster's on here have been crowing about our ingenuity and delighting in our good fortune at being-dare I say it-BRITISH!

1. FIRST in Europe for total number of cases.
2. FIRST in Europe for total number of deaths.
3. FIRST in Europe for total of NEW cases.
4. FIRST in Europe for total number of NEW deaths.

Roger, this is just total nonsense.
1. France and Russia have both had more cases
2. Russia has more deaths, on a per million analysis there are a host of countries ahead of us.
3. Russia has more new cases. And we do massively more testing than anyone else.
4. Total rubbish. In the last 7 days Italy, Germany and France (as well as Russia) have all had more deaths than us.

Why do you write this stuff?

I should perhaps have replaced 'Europe' with 'EU'. Had I done so the only number which is incorrect on YESTERDAY'S figures is France which had marginally more total cases than us.

Which would also have been laughably wrong. We’re not in the EU. Perhaps you missed that evolution, as you fumbled with your Blackberry under your tartan blanket, trying to tune into the Home Service

I think what Roger means is 'we did worse than Germany'.
Because surely he can't be expecting that Bulgaria, Slovenia, Croatia, Poland, Hungary, Czechia and so forth had more deaths than us in absolute terms. No-one who has even an ounce of maths in their body would expect that.

So, fair point Roger - the UK has had more covid than Germany.

Downthread someone suggested ‘Germany’ as an example of a country that handled the pandemic (so far) “really well”

Wtf?

Germany is the 19th largest country in the world by population

Going by Worldometer (flawed but indicative) Germany is 12th in the world for total cases and also 12th for total deaths. Bad.

Their economy in 2020 shrank by 5%. Also bad. And they still have Delta to come

Germany did better than some European countries (the UK for one) but worse than others. Globally it is nowhere near the top rank and is no kind of model

South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore are models. Perhaps oz and nz (but they have new issues now)

In Europe maybe Denmark? You soon run out of exemplars

Of the G7 nations Germany and Japan did the best, Germany locked down relatively early, certainly compared to the USA and us, had an effective track and trace and has a far better vaccination rate now than say New Zealand, Australia and France.

Though globally Singapore is probably the best example, amongst the top nations in terms of vaccination rate and has had just 6 Covid deaths per million, compared to a global rate of 514

Japan did waaaaay better than Germany healthwise. 15,000 deaths compared to 90,000 and with a bigger, older population

Not so good on vaccines tho. We’ve yet to see if that bites them

Think they're getting their vaccine act together.

Japan’s superior performance on deaths might just be a function of their very low obesity rates. It is likely that is a factor around the world - see the horrors in fairly-obese Latin America

Incidentally, I’m sitting in a beach bar in Majorca watching Europe waddle past. All nations. It is clear lots of people have put on lots of weight. Brits among the worst, and we were already fat

God knows what the USA is like

Aslan said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Scott_xP said:

JosiasJessop said:

Having said that, I hope England win, if only because it matters to so many people in this country.

Which country? That's the problem...

Johnson is making a mistake aligning himself so closely with England. He's PM of the UK and while his words might be transferable to other Home Nations, his gestures are not. He should therefore stick to words.
https://twitter.com/DavidHerdson/status/1412701865872089095

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1412684618143342595

Its very simple. Had Wales, or Scotland (stop sniggering) got through, and England knocked out, would we have had the same level of flag twattery? Bozza on a huge Saltaire on Downing Street? Bozza with a Wales shirt encouraging us to learn Land of my Fathers?

We all know the answer is no.

Nonsense. If Wales or Scotland had reached the semi-finals he would definitely have been photoed with their flag and tweeted congratulations.

And been roundly criticised by the Nationalists for doing it!

kjh said:

IanB2 said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Leon said:

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Roger said:

I've not been following the pandemic in any sort of detail. Just listening to the news and government spokespeople. While our vaccine program was purring like a Ferrari Europe's were limping along like a Lada Riva with a puncture. Tory poster's on here have been crowing about our ingenuity and delighting in our good fortune at being-dare I say it-BRITISH!

1. FIRST in Europe for total number of cases.
2. FIRST in Europe for total number of deaths.
3. FIRST in Europe for total of NEW cases.
4. FIRST in Europe for total number of NEW deaths.

Roger, this is just total nonsense.
1. France and Russia have both had more cases
2. Russia has more deaths, on a per million analysis there are a host of countries ahead of us.
3. Russia has more new cases. And we do massively more testing than anyone else.
4. Total rubbish. In the last 7 days Italy, Germany and France (as well as Russia) have all had more deaths than us.

Why do you write this stuff?

I should perhaps have replaced 'Europe' with 'EU'. Had I done so the only number which is incorrect on YESTERDAY'S figures is France which had marginally more total cases than us.

Which would also have been laughably wrong. We’re not in the EU. Perhaps you missed that evolution, as you fumbled with your Blackberry under your tartan blanket, trying to tune into the Home Service

I am surprised that Brexiteers haven't insisted we go back to calling Radio 2 "The Home Service", which they can listen to on their new fangled "wireless", particularly enjoying the sublime commentary of John Arlott. When the odd run is scored they will applaud politely and mutter "hear hear" with their pipe of baccy clenched between their teeth, whilst thinking it is all jolly good that we are back in the 1950s with ration books and good old navy blue passports.

Such ignorance is shocking.

Radio Four was the Home Service.

Radio Two was the Light Programme.

Damn, damn, damn. I was just about to post that. Might as well point out although far too late that Radio 3 was the Third Programme.

I thought that was ITV? Although my mother always called it the third channel, so maybe not.

HYUFD said:

Leon said:

HYUFD said:

Leon said:

Cookie said:

Leon said:

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Roger said:

I've not been following the pandemic in any sort of detail. Just listening to the news and government spokespeople. While our vaccine program was purring like a Ferrari Europe's were limping along like a Lada Riva with a puncture. Tory poster's on here have been crowing about our ingenuity and delighting in our good fortune at being-dare I say it-BRITISH!

1. FIRST in Europe for total number of cases.
2. FIRST in Europe for total number of deaths.
3. FIRST in Europe for total of NEW cases.
4. FIRST in Europe for total number of NEW deaths.

Roger, this is just total nonsense.
1. France and Russia have both had more cases
2. Russia has more deaths, on a per million analysis there are a host of countries ahead of us.
3. Russia has more new cases. And we do massively more testing than anyone else.
4. Total rubbish. In the last 7 days Italy, Germany and France (as well as Russia) have all had more deaths than us.

Why do you write this stuff?

I should perhaps have replaced 'Europe' with 'EU'. Had I done so the only number which is incorrect on YESTERDAY'S figures is France which had marginally more total cases than us.

Which would also have been laughably wrong. We’re not in the EU. Perhaps you missed that evolution, as you fumbled with your Blackberry under your tartan blanket, trying to tune into the Home Service

I think what Roger means is 'we did worse than Germany'.
Because surely he can't be expecting that Bulgaria, Slovenia, Croatia, Poland, Hungary, Czechia and so forth had more deaths than us in absolute terms. No-one who has even an ounce of maths in their body would expect that.

So, fair point Roger - the UK has had more covid than Germany.

Downthread someone suggested ‘Germany’ as an example of a country that handled the pandemic (so far) “really well”

Wtf?

Germany is the 19th largest country in the world by population

Going by Worldometer (flawed but indicative) Germany is 12th in the world for total cases and also 12th for total deaths. Bad.

Their economy in 2020 shrank by 5%. Also bad. And they still have Delta to come

Germany did better than some European countries (the UK for one) but worse than others. Globally it is nowhere near the top rank and is no kind of model

South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore are models. Perhaps oz and nz (but they have new issues now)

In Europe maybe Denmark? You soon run out of exemplars

Of the G7 nations Germany and Japan did the best, Germany locked down relatively early, certainly compared to the USA and us, had an effective track and trace and has a far better vaccination rate now than say New Zealand, Australia and France.

Though globally Singapore is probably the best example, amongst the top nations in terms of vaccination rate and has had just 6 Covid deaths per million, compared to a global rate of 514

Japan did waaaaay better than Germany healthwise. 15,000 deaths compared to 90,000 and with a bigger, older population

Not so good on vaccines tho. We’ve yet to see if that bites them

Canada to be fair to Trudeau has also done relatively well, a lower death rate than the US, us and most of Europe and a vaccination rate now ahead of the US and most of Europe too and only slightly behind the UK

Canada another country where social distancing is a way of life not just for Coronavirus.

Canada's population density is less than 1% of England's.

The distancing even in cities like Edmonton is nothing like anything you'd see anywhere in England.

Leon said:

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

HYUFD said:

Leon said:

Cookie said:

Leon said:

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Roger said:

I've not been following the pandemic in any sort of detail. Just listening to the news and government spokespeople. While our vaccine program was purring like a Ferrari Europe's were limping along like a Lada Riva with a puncture. Tory poster's on here have been crowing about our ingenuity and delighting in our good fortune at being-dare I say it-BRITISH!

1. FIRST in Europe for total number of cases.
2. FIRST in Europe for total number of deaths.
3. FIRST in Europe for total of NEW cases.
4. FIRST in Europe for total number of NEW deaths.

Roger, this is just total nonsense.
1. France and Russia have both had more cases
2. Russia has more deaths, on a per million analysis there are a host of countries ahead of us.
3. Russia has more new cases. And we do massively more testing than anyone else.
4. Total rubbish. In the last 7 days Italy, Germany and France (as well as Russia) have all had more deaths than us.

Why do you write this stuff?

I should perhaps have replaced 'Europe' with 'EU'. Had I done so the only number which is incorrect on YESTERDAY'S figures is France which had marginally more total cases than us.

Which would also have been laughably wrong. We’re not in the EU. Perhaps you missed that evolution, as you fumbled with your Blackberry under your tartan blanket, trying to tune into the Home Service

I think what Roger means is 'we did worse than Germany'.
Because surely he can't be expecting that Bulgaria, Slovenia, Croatia, Poland, Hungary, Czechia and so forth had more deaths than us in absolute terms. No-one who has even an ounce of maths in their body would expect that.

So, fair point Roger - the UK has had more covid than Germany.

Downthread someone suggested ‘Germany’ as an example of a country that handled the pandemic (so far) “really well”

Wtf?

Germany is the 19th largest country in the world by population

Going by Worldometer (flawed but indicative) Germany is 12th in the world for total cases and also 12th for total deaths. Bad.

Their economy in 2020 shrank by 5%. Also bad. And they still have Delta to come

Germany did better than some European countries (the UK for one) but worse than others. Globally it is nowhere near the top rank and is no kind of model

South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore are models. Perhaps oz and nz (but they have new issues now)

In Europe maybe Denmark? You soon run out of exemplars

Of the G7 nations Germany and Japan did the best, Germany locked down relatively early, certainly compared to the USA and us, had an effective track and trace and has a far better vaccination rate now than say New Zealand, Australia and France.

Though globally Singapore is probably the best example, amongst the top nations in terms of vaccination rate and has had just 6 Covid deaths per million, compared to a global rate of 514

Japan did waaaaay better than Germany healthwise. 15,000 deaths compared to 90,000 and with a bigger, older population

Not so good on vaccines tho. We’ve yet to see if that bites them

Think they're getting their vaccine act together.

Japan’s superior performance on deaths might just be a function of their very low obesity rates. It is likely that is a factor around the world - see the horrors in fairly-obese Latin America

Incidentally, I’m sitting in a beach bar in Majorca watching Europe waddle past. All nations. It is clear lots of people have put on lots of weight. Brits among the worst, and we were already fat

God knows what the USA is like

Things like losing weight, good diet, vitamin D, all seem to have really gone from government messaging. Being a big fatty with poor diet leading to things like diabetes and also general vitamin d deficieny are all bad things if you are struck down by covid.

Stammer did bring up a good point re the potential isolation of hundreds and thousands, if not millions of people at the same time as test and trace continues. It cropped up as an issue on Radio 4 just about simultaneously. Not sure that has been thought out. It will be chaos or it will be ignored. I didn't realise that was continuing until I heard Starmer and the radio.

Carnyx said:

MattW said:

OldKingCole said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Carnyx said:

OldKingCole said:

Cyclefree said:

Nigelb said:

Cyclefree said:

Foxy said:

Cyclefree said:

Gardenwalker said:

FPT

My issue with China, apart from the way it treats its own people, is that it advances the authoritarian, anti-democratic surveillance state as a model of development.

Ultimately, that’s a threat to our way of life, or perhaps our children’s way of life.

One of the best things Britain can do, in my opinion, is better uphold democracy, liberty and the rule of law in *this* country, thereby acting as an example to others.

We did this quite well for a hundred years or so.

Fun fact, I was taught by someone later outed as a Chinese spy at University.

Fat chance when we've got Sunak wanting a more "nuanced" relationship with China, "nuanced" meaning "we promise we won't ever criticise you".

The tables have turned since the 19th century. We now allow China to buy up and modernise our infrastructure, and are reliant on Chinese capital and investment.

Gardenwalker said:

Cyclefree said:

Gardenwalker said:

FPT

My issue with China, apart from the way it treats its own people, is that it advances the authoritarian, anti-democratic surveillance state as a model of development.

Ultimately, that’s a threat to our way of life, or perhaps our children’s way of life.

One of the best things Britain can do, in my opinion, is better uphold democracy, liberty and the rule of law in *this* country, thereby acting as an example to others.

We did this quite well for a hundred years or so.

Fun fact, I was taught by someone later outed as a Chinese spy at University.

Fat chance when we've got Sunak wanting a more "nuanced" relationship with China, "nuanced" meaning "we promise we won't ever criticise you".

We do have to live with China somehow. We can’t wish it away. Therefore, I’m reserving judgment on Sunak’s comments.

I don’t even especially think it necessary for the govt to “criticise” China, but I do want it to promote our values, and protect our strategic industries and technologies.

There is a difference between living with a country and bending over and holding our ankles.

Making pacts with the devil is never a good idea. And yes I do believe China under the current regime is a devil. It is a threat to freedom and liberty and democracy. The more we depend on it, the more that will threaten our freedom, liberty and democracy.

Except that the move is now (albeit slight so far) away from dependence. The recent sharp spike in transport costs, and the massive delays in getting some types of goods out of China, have opened quite a few peoples eyes, irrespective of any human rights objections.
Sunak and the government will be judged by their deeds rather than his words; I don't have any great confidence in them either, but we'll see.

I hope so.

Not content with persecuting Uighurs in China, it is now going after Uighurs who have managed to escape abroad.

China is IMO an evil regime and we should sup with them with a very long spoon indeed, if we have to sup with them at all.

I forget where I read it, but I found somewhere a suggestion ..... from someone who thought about these things ..... that today's Chinese leaders may describe themselves as Communists, but they are in fact in the long tradition of Emperors, and that they, perhaps subconsciously, believe that the Han are the superior group in humanity, and that everyone else should try to become Han, or to be made Han.

For their own good!

That's not saying that I disagree with Ms Cyclefree, that we should be very, very cautious in our dealing with the Chinese Government. I'm say that we ought to be very careful in our dealing with any Chinese Government, and that caution should take into account the fact that while the current Government may be Communist, it's still Chinese, and remembers the indignities heaped upon the country by 19th & early 20th Century Westerners.

And a somewhat belated Good Morning everyone!

Morning! Just reading a history of the siege of the German base in Tsingtao (as it was called then) by the Japanese in WW1. The Germans just rocked up in the 1890s and said 'we'll have our base here, thank you very much' - in the ensuing disputes, they paid serious attention only to the other Western (incl Russia) governments.

Which reminds me, the Japanese also were honorary Westerners. Which puts an interesting light, from the Chine3se point of view, on the current discussions in Japan over whether to deal with the Taiwan issue by allying with the USA.

Most people do forget - or never knew - that the Japanese were our allies in WW1. I have a fascinating account by a soldier of the machine gun corps crossing the Mediterranean from Marseille to Egypt in 1918 and their ship being protected by a couple of Japanese destroyers hunting for Austro-Hungarian submarines.

Why the Japanese changed sides is also fascinating. According to an Australian expert (at least, that was how he was introduced) at the River Kwai in Thailand post WWI the USA didn't want the British 'interfering' in North Pacific affairs.

Late 19C is an equally interesting period of history in the Pacific.

The USA did not have a serious navy until the very late Victorian period, and were actually outmatched by South American countries for a good time before that due to an arms race funded by guano. There was no need, and Congress kept having high ambitions then refusing the necessary budget.

And Japan got into bed with the UK for naval technology, as the RN was still the hegemonic power, and the US was predicted as their main Pacific rival. Good way to avoid a war with the USA at a time the USA had just knocked the Spanish over.

So a number of the Japanese ships that wiped out the Russian fleet in 1905 were UK built, much of the key Japanese Naval Staff were UK trained or RN-inpired, and there were a number of UK observers present at the battle of Tsushima.

I think that's all about right.

Oh yes, the cooperation extended into and beyond WW1 etc. Supply of post-Dreadnought ships and designs. Like those new-fangled aircraft carrier things. And, unofficially on the part of one or two folk who, er, didn't quite keep up with changing times, into WW2 ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Forbes-Sempill,_19th_Lord_Sempill
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Rutland

Not to mention the idea of oxygen-enriched torpedoes....

At Tsushima, the Japanese were impressed with Pakenham (one of the observers). While pacing the deck, he got spatted when a Japanese sailors was blown to bits next to him. He retired below, to return a short time later, in a fresh, gleaming white uniform. And resumed his pacing and note taking.

Among his comments - "When 12 inch guns are firing, shots from 10 inch guns pass unnoticed, while for all the respect they instil, 6 and 8 inch guns might as well be peashooters".

IanB2 said:

Leon said:

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

HYUFD said:

Leon said:

Cookie said:

Leon said:

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Roger said:

I've not been following the pandemic in any sort of detail. Just listening to the news and government spokespeople. While our vaccine program was purring like a Ferrari Europe's were limping along like a Lada Riva with a puncture. Tory poster's on here have been crowing about our ingenuity and delighting in our good fortune at being-dare I say it-BRITISH!

1. FIRST in Europe for total number of cases.
2. FIRST in Europe for total number of deaths.
3. FIRST in Europe for total of NEW cases.
4. FIRST in Europe for total number of NEW deaths.

Roger, this is just total nonsense.
1. France and Russia have both had more cases
2. Russia has more deaths, on a per million analysis there are a host of countries ahead of us.
3. Russia has more new cases. And we do massively more testing than anyone else.
4. Total rubbish. In the last 7 days Italy, Germany and France (as well as Russia) have all had more deaths than us.

Why do you write this stuff?

I should perhaps have replaced 'Europe' with 'EU'. Had I done so the only number which is incorrect on YESTERDAY'S figures is France which had marginally more total cases than us.

Which would also have been laughably wrong. We’re not in the EU. Perhaps you missed that evolution, as you fumbled with your Blackberry under your tartan blanket, trying to tune into the Home Service

I think what Roger means is 'we did worse than Germany'.
Because surely he can't be expecting that Bulgaria, Slovenia, Croatia, Poland, Hungary, Czechia and so forth had more deaths than us in absolute terms. No-one who has even an ounce of maths in their body would expect that.

So, fair point Roger - the UK has had more covid than Germany.

Downthread someone suggested ‘Germany’ as an example of a country that handled the pandemic (so far) “really well”

Wtf?

Germany is the 19th largest country in the world by population

Going by Worldometer (flawed but indicative) Germany is 12th in the world for total cases and also 12th for total deaths. Bad.

Their economy in 2020 shrank by 5%. Also bad. And they still have Delta to come

Germany did better than some European countries (the UK for one) but worse than others. Globally it is nowhere near the top rank and is no kind of model

South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore are models. Perhaps oz and nz (but they have new issues now)

In Europe maybe Denmark? You soon run out of exemplars

Of the G7 nations Germany and Japan did the best, Germany locked down relatively early, certainly compared to the USA and us, had an effective track and trace and has a far better vaccination rate now than say New Zealand, Australia and France.

Though globally Singapore is probably the best example, amongst the top nations in terms of vaccination rate and has had just 6 Covid deaths per million, compared to a global rate of 514

Japan did waaaaay better than Germany healthwise. 15,000 deaths compared to 90,000 and with a bigger, older population

Not so good on vaccines tho. We’ve yet to see if that bites them

Think they're getting their vaccine act together.

Japan’s superior performance on deaths might just be a function of their very low obesity rates. It is likely that is a factor around the world - see the horrors in fairly-obese Latin America

Incidentally, I’m sitting in a beach bar in Majorca watching Europe waddle past. All nations. It is clear lots of people have put on lots of weight. Brits among the worst, and we were already fat

God knows what the USA is like

In my long trip around the States a couple of years back I was surprised not to see more of the obese people for which it is renowned. But I concluded they weren’t likely to be out as much, and insofar as they did venture out probably frequented mostly places that I was unlikely to be visiting.

I spent a lot of time in the US and they are definitely there! And as with so much about the US, its the extremes. The fit and healthy are super fit and healthy, the same the other way.

It is also something i really notice when i go and visit my home town of Stoke, people are noticeably much fatter than the affluent part of the country I live in. You can't miss it, and again so often it isn't a bit of dad bod, it is really obese.

Nigel_Foremain said:

Leon said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Leon said:

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Roger said:

I've not been following the pandemic in any sort of detail. Just listening to the news and government spokespeople. While our vaccine program was purring like a Ferrari Europe's were limping along like a Lada Riva with a puncture. Tory poster's on here have been crowing about our ingenuity and delighting in our good fortune at being-dare I say it-BRITISH!

1. FIRST in Europe for total number of cases.
2. FIRST in Europe for total number of deaths.
3. FIRST in Europe for total of NEW cases.
4. FIRST in Europe for total number of NEW deaths.

Roger, this is just total nonsense.
1. France and Russia have both had more cases
2. Russia has more deaths, on a per million analysis there are a host of countries ahead of us.
3. Russia has more new cases. And we do massively more testing than anyone else.
4. Total rubbish. In the last 7 days Italy, Germany and France (as well as Russia) have all had more deaths than us.

Why do you write this stuff?

I should perhaps have replaced 'Europe' with 'EU'. Had I done so the only number which is incorrect on YESTERDAY'S figures is France which had marginally more total cases than us.

Which would also have been laughably wrong. We’re not in the EU. Perhaps you missed that evolution, as you fumbled with your Blackberry under your tartan blanket, trying to tune into the Home Service

I am surprised that Brexiteers haven't insisted we go back to calling Radio 2 "The Home Service", which they can listen to on their new fangled "wireless", particularly enjoying the sublime commentary of John Arlott. When the odd run is scored they will applaud politely and mutter "hear hear" with their pipe of baccy clenched between their teeth, whilst thinking it is all jolly good that we are back in the 1950s with ration books and good old navy blue passports.

I’ve met millions of Brexiteers of all stripes. From lunatic eco-Leavers to stereotypical chav Leavers to super-posh ducal Leavers. I’ve never met the archetype you describe here. Not once. I’m sure they exist outside your head, but they are rare

The stereotype you do constantly encounter is the middle class, BBC watching, London based, Tuscany-going Remoaner who has been slightly unhinged by Brexit. You encounter them constantly and you can spot them a mile off. However they may be so conspicuous just because they are so hysterical on Twitter

Clearly left your sense of humour by the pool today. I expected a wittier repost than that. Disappointing.

Your somewhat desperate attempt to disassociate yourself from the BNP gorilla type leaver is understandable. What you can't get away from is that Farage (the person that convinced so many of you that we were being overrun by a tidal wave of immigrants - remember him?), fits that stereotype perfectly. You have probably overlooked that I used to be a Tory activist. I have met masses of them and there are sadly even more of them in the Tory party now as entryists from UKIP. Reactionary old farts who would love the UK to go back to the 1950s of their parents' youth. The obsession with navy blue passports was only one example of their stupidity. You are simply in denial. You know I am right. Perhaps you have a tweed jacket and a pipe yourself that you only use at weekends.

Oh. You were trying to be FUNNY. Sorry

Because it wasn’t remotely funny, as you have no sense of humour, it’s quite difficult to respond correctly, in these circumstances. Sorry

In future perhaps you could start your ‘funny’ comments with some kind of clown face emoji, so I know to read your ‘funny’ remarks with a rictus grin of embarrassment on your behalf, before coughing up a tiny, forced little laugh like a lizard boaking a boll-weevil

contrarian said:

NHS App latest

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/15518671/brits-deleting-nhs-covid-app-millions-pinged/?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_campaign=sunpoliticstwitter&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1625660365

Not surprised to be honest, people making their own calls on risk (as they have done throughout in lockdown observance etc, ignoring some of the more bizarre rules such as I can go for a walk with my father in law while my wife goes for a walk with her mum, but we can't al walk together, after first lockdown). People were up for this when unvaccinated as they saw the clear risk and didn't want to pass on Covid to particularly vulnerable family. Now those vulnerable people are double vaccinated, the rationale on a personal/near family basis is far far weaker.

I've still got the app. Recently went on holiday and stayed in a cottage which was owned by a caravan park. Welcome documents asked us to scan in at the venue. We didn't, as it was patently absurd - we had no close contact with anyone else on site, spoke only briefly to a few people outdoors. If someone on the site had Covid it would have pretty much zero relevance to us.

IanB2 said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Leon said:

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Roger said:

I've not been following the pandemic in any sort of detail. Just listening to the news and government spokespeople. While our vaccine program was purring like a Ferrari Europe's were limping along like a Lada Riva with a puncture. Tory poster's on here have been crowing about our ingenuity and delighting in our good fortune at being-dare I say it-BRITISH!

1. FIRST in Europe for total number of cases.
2. FIRST in Europe for total number of deaths.
3. FIRST in Europe for total of NEW cases.
4. FIRST in Europe for total number of NEW deaths.

Roger, this is just total nonsense.
1. France and Russia have both had more cases
2. Russia has more deaths, on a per million analysis there are a host of countries ahead of us.
3. Russia has more new cases. And we do massively more testing than anyone else.
4. Total rubbish. In the last 7 days Italy, Germany and France (as well as Russia) have all had more deaths than us.

Why do you write this stuff?

I should perhaps have replaced 'Europe' with 'EU'. Had I done so the only number which is incorrect on YESTERDAY'S figures is France which had marginally more total cases than us.

Which would also have been laughably wrong. We’re not in the EU. Perhaps you missed that evolution, as you fumbled with your Blackberry under your tartan blanket, trying to tune into the Home Service

I am surprised that Brexiteers haven't insisted we go back to calling Radio 2 "The Home Service", which they can listen to on their new fangled "wireless", particularly enjoying the sublime commentary of John Arlott. When the odd run is scored they will applaud politely and mutter "hear hear" with their pipe of baccy clenched between their teeth, whilst thinking it is all jolly good that we are back in the 1950s with ration books and good old navy blue passports.

Such ignorance is shocking.

Radio Four was the Home Service.

Radio Two was the Light Programme.

As Captain Mainwaring would have said " I was wondering who would spot that first"

Leon said:

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

HYUFD said:

Leon said:

Cookie said:

Leon said:

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Roger said:

I've not been following the pandemic in any sort of detail. Just listening to the news and government spokespeople. While our vaccine program was purring like a Ferrari Europe's were limping along like a Lada Riva with a puncture. Tory poster's on here have been crowing about our ingenuity and delighting in our good fortune at being-dare I say it-BRITISH!

1. FIRST in Europe for total number of cases.
2. FIRST in Europe for total number of deaths.
3. FIRST in Europe for total of NEW cases.
4. FIRST in Europe for total number of NEW deaths.

Roger, this is just total nonsense.
1. France and Russia have both had more cases
2. Russia has more deaths, on a per million analysis there are a host of countries ahead of us.
3. Russia has more new cases. And we do massively more testing than anyone else.
4. Total rubbish. In the last 7 days Italy, Germany and France (as well as Russia) have all had more deaths than us.

Why do you write this stuff?

I should perhaps have replaced 'Europe' with 'EU'. Had I done so the only number which is incorrect on YESTERDAY'S figures is France which had marginally more total cases than us.

Which would also have been laughably wrong. We’re not in the EU. Perhaps you missed that evolution, as you fumbled with your Blackberry under your tartan blanket, trying to tune into the Home Service

I think what Roger means is 'we did worse than Germany'.
Because surely he can't be expecting that Bulgaria, Slovenia, Croatia, Poland, Hungary, Czechia and so forth had more deaths than us in absolute terms. No-one who has even an ounce of maths in their body would expect that.

So, fair point Roger - the UK has had more covid than Germany.

Downthread someone suggested ‘Germany’ as an example of a country that handled the pandemic (so far) “really well”

Wtf?

Germany is the 19th largest country in the world by population

Going by Worldometer (flawed but indicative) Germany is 12th in the world for total cases and also 12th for total deaths. Bad.

Their economy in 2020 shrank by 5%. Also bad. And they still have Delta to come

Germany did better than some European countries (the UK for one) but worse than others. Globally it is nowhere near the top rank and is no kind of model

South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore are models. Perhaps oz and nz (but they have new issues now)

In Europe maybe Denmark? You soon run out of exemplars

Of the G7 nations Germany and Japan did the best, Germany locked down relatively early, certainly compared to the USA and us, had an effective track and trace and has a far better vaccination rate now than say New Zealand, Australia and France.

Though globally Singapore is probably the best example, amongst the top nations in terms of vaccination rate and has had just 6 Covid deaths per million, compared to a global rate of 514

Japan did waaaaay better than Germany healthwise. 15,000 deaths compared to 90,000 and with a bigger, older population

Not so good on vaccines tho. We’ve yet to see if that bites them

Think they're getting their vaccine act together.

Japan’s superior performance on deaths might just be a function of their very low obesity rates. It is likely that is a factor around the world - see the horrors in fairly-obese Latin America

Incidentally, I’m sitting in a beach bar in Majorca watching Europe waddle past. All nations. It is clear lots of people have put on lots of weight. Brits among the worst, and we were already fat

God knows what the USA is like

It's hard to imagine the French and Italians being fat. Both are very obviously slimmer than the average here. Has your trip to Majorca revealed some Gallic guts and Tuscan tummies?

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Overweight_and_obesity_-_BMI_statistics

IanB2 said:

Leon said:

MaxPB said:

Leon said:

HYUFD said:

Leon said:

Cookie said:

Leon said:

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Roger said:

I've not been following the pandemic in any sort of detail. Just listening to the news and government spokespeople. While our vaccine program was purring like a Ferrari Europe's were limping along like a Lada Riva with a puncture. Tory poster's on here have been crowing about our ingenuity and delighting in our good fortune at being-dare I say it-BRITISH!

1. FIRST in Europe for total number of cases.
2. FIRST in Europe for total number of deaths.
3. FIRST in Europe for total of NEW cases.
4. FIRST in Europe for total number of NEW deaths.

Roger, this is just total nonsense.
1. France and Russia have both had more cases
2. Russia has more deaths, on a per million analysis there are a host of countries ahead of us.
3. Russia has more new cases. And we do massively more testing than anyone else.
4. Total rubbish. In the last 7 days Italy, Germany and France (as well as Russia) have all had more deaths than us.

Why do you write this stuff?

I should perhaps have replaced 'Europe' with 'EU'. Had I done so the only number which is incorrect on YESTERDAY'S figures is France which had marginally more total cases than us.

Which would also have been laughably wrong. We’re not in the EU. Perhaps you missed that evolution, as you fumbled with your Blackberry under your tartan blanket, trying to tune into the Home Service

I think what Roger means is 'we did worse than Germany'.
Because surely he can't be expecting that Bulgaria, Slovenia, Croatia, Poland, Hungary, Czechia and so forth had more deaths than us in absolute terms. No-one who has even an ounce of maths in their body would expect that.

So, fair point Roger - the UK has had more covid than Germany.

Downthread someone suggested ‘Germany’ as an example of a country that handled the pandemic (so far) “really well”

Wtf?

Germany is the 19th largest country in the world by population

Going by Worldometer (flawed but indicative) Germany is 12th in the world for total cases and also 12th for total deaths. Bad.

Their economy in 2020 shrank by 5%. Also bad. And they still have Delta to come

Germany did better than some European countries (the UK for one) but worse than others. Globally it is nowhere near the top rank and is no kind of model

South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore are models. Perhaps oz and nz (but they have new issues now)

In Europe maybe Denmark? You soon run out of exemplars

Of the G7 nations Germany and Japan did the best, Germany locked down relatively early, certainly compared to the USA and us, had an effective track and trace and has a far better vaccination rate now than say New Zealand, Australia and France.

Though globally Singapore is probably the best example, amongst the top nations in terms of vaccination rate and has had just 6 Covid deaths per million, compared to a global rate of 514

Japan did waaaaay better than Germany healthwise. 15,000 deaths compared to 90,000 and with a bigger, older population

Not so good on vaccines tho. We’ve yet to see if that bites them

Think they're getting their vaccine act together.

Japan’s superior performance on deaths might just be a function of their very low obesity rates. It is likely that is a factor around the world - see the horrors in fairly-obese Latin America

Incidentally, I’m sitting in a beach bar in Majorca watching Europe waddle past. All nations. It is clear lots of people have put on lots of weight. Brits among the worst, and we were already fat

God knows what the USA is like

In my long trip around the States a couple of years back I was surprised not to see more of the obese people for which it is renowned. But I concluded they weren’t likely to be out as much, and insofar as they did venture out probably frequented mostly places that I was unlikely to be visiting.

A visit to a Wal Mart in Mississippi or a Dairy Queen in the less pricey bits of Chicago or Texas would set you right. But as you say, you didn’t go there

I still haven't had a satisfactory answer my poser yesterday.

Why would anyone in their right mind retain the app on their phone?

Cookie said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Leon said:

HYUFD said:

Leon said:

Cookie said:

Leon said:

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Roger said:

I've not been following the pandemic in any sort of detail. Just listening to the news and government spokespeople. While our vaccine program was purring like a Ferrari Europe's were limping along like a Lada Riva with a puncture. Tory poster's on here have been crowing about our ingenuity and delighting in our good fortune at being-dare I say it-BRITISH!

1. FIRST in Europe for total number of cases.
2. FIRST in Europe for total number of deaths.
3. FIRST in Europe for total of NEW cases.
4. FIRST in Europe for total number of NEW deaths.

Roger, this is just total nonsense.
1. France and Russia have both had more cases
2. Russia has more deaths, on a per million analysis there are a host of countries ahead of us.
3. Russia has more new cases. And we do massively more testing than anyone else.
4. Total rubbish. In the last 7 days Italy, Germany and France (as well as Russia) have all had more deaths than us.

Why do you write this stuff?

I should perhaps have replaced 'Europe' with 'EU'. Had I done so the only number which is incorrect on YESTERDAY'S figures is France which had marginally more total cases than us.

Which would also have been laughably wrong. We’re not in the EU. Perhaps you missed that evolution, as you fumbled with your Blackberry under your tartan blanket, trying to tune into the Home Service

I think what Roger means is 'we did worse than Germany'.
Because surely he can't be expecting that Bulgaria, Slovenia, Croatia, Poland, Hungary, Czechia and so forth had more deaths than us in absolute terms. No-one who has even an ounce of maths in their body would expect that.

So, fair point Roger - the UK has had more covid than Germany.

Downthread someone suggested ‘Germany’ as an example of a country that handled the pandemic (so far) “really well”

Wtf?

Germany is the 19th largest country in the world by population

Going by Worldometer (flawed but indicative) Germany is 12th in the world for total cases and also 12th for total deaths. Bad.

Their economy in 2020 shrank by 5%. Also bad. And they still have Delta to come

Germany did better than some European countries (the UK for one) but worse than others. Globally it is nowhere near the top rank and is no kind of model

South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore are models. Perhaps oz and nz (but they have new issues now)

In Europe maybe Denmark? You soon run out of exemplars

Of the G7 nations Germany and Japan did the best, Germany locked down relatively early, certainly compared to the USA and us, had an effective track and trace and has a far better vaccination rate now than say New Zealand, Australia and France.

Though globally Singapore is probably the best example, amongst the top nations in terms of vaccination rate and has had just 6 Covid deaths per million, compared to a global rate of 514

Japan did waaaaay better than Germany healthwise. 15,000 deaths compared to 90,000 and with a bigger, older population

Not so good on vaccines tho. We’ve yet to see if that bites them

Canada to be fair to Trudeau has also done relatively well, a lower death rate than the US, us and most of Europe and a vaccination rate now ahead of the US and most of Europe too and only slightly behind the UK

Canada another country where social distancing is a way of life not just for Coronavirus.

Canada's population density is less than 1% of England's.

The distancing even in cities like Edmonton is nothing like anything you'd see anywhere in England.

Yes but the majority of Canada's population lives in just 2 of its 10 provinces (and 3 territories), Ontario and Quebec.

Toronto alone has a population of 5 million which is 14% of the entire Canadian population, even London has only 12% of the UK population

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

Leon said:

HYUFD said:

Leon said:

Cookie said:

Leon said:

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Roger said:

I've not been following the pandemic in any sort of detail. Just listening to the news and government spokespeople. While our vaccine program was purring like a Ferrari Europe's were limping along like a Lada Riva with a puncture. Tory poster's on here have been crowing about our ingenuity and delighting in our good fortune at being-dare I say it-BRITISH!

1. FIRST in Europe for total number of cases.
2. FIRST in Europe for total number of deaths.
3. FIRST in Europe for total of NEW cases.
4. FIRST in Europe for total number of NEW deaths.

Roger, this is just total nonsense.
1. France and Russia have both had more cases
2. Russia has more deaths, on a per million analysis there are a host of countries ahead of us.
3. Russia has more new cases. And we do massively more testing than anyone else.
4. Total rubbish. In the last 7 days Italy, Germany and France (as well as Russia) have all had more deaths than us.

Why do you write this stuff?

I should perhaps have replaced 'Europe' with 'EU'. Had I done so the only number which is incorrect on YESTERDAY'S figures is France which had marginally more total cases than us.

Which would also have been laughably wrong. We’re not in the EU. Perhaps you missed that evolution, as you fumbled with your Blackberry under your tartan blanket, trying to tune into the Home Service

I think what Roger means is 'we did worse than Germany'.
Because surely he can't be expecting that Bulgaria, Slovenia, Croatia, Poland, Hungary, Czechia and so forth had more deaths than us in absolute terms. No-one who has even an ounce of maths in their body would expect that.

So, fair point Roger - the UK has had more covid than Germany.

Downthread someone suggested ‘Germany’ as an example of a country that handled the pandemic (so far) “really well”

Wtf?

Germany is the 19th largest country in the world by population

Going by Worldometer (flawed but indicative) Germany is 12th in the world for total cases and also 12th for total deaths. Bad.

Their economy in 2020 shrank by 5%. Also bad. And they still have Delta to come

Germany did better than some European countries (the UK for one) but worse than others. Globally it is nowhere near the top rank and is no kind of model

South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore are models. Perhaps oz and nz (but they have new issues now)

In Europe maybe Denmark? You soon run out of exemplars

Of the G7 nations Germany and Japan did the best, Germany locked down relatively early, certainly compared to the USA and us, had an effective track and trace and has a far better vaccination rate now than say New Zealand, Australia and France.

Though globally Singapore is probably the best example, amongst the top nations in terms of vaccination rate and has had just 6 Covid deaths per million, compared to a global rate of 514

Japan did waaaaay better than Germany healthwise. 15,000 deaths compared to 90,000 and with a bigger, older population

Not so good on vaccines tho. We’ve yet to see if that bites them

Canada to be fair to Trudeau has also done relatively well, a lower death rate than the US, us and most of Europe and a vaccination rate now ahead of the US and most of Europe too and only slightly behind the UK

Canada another country where social distancing is a way of life not just for Coronavirus.

Canada's population density is less than 1% of England's.

The distancing even in cities like Edmonton is nothing like anything you'd see anywhere in England.

Yes but the majority of Canada's population lives in just 2 of its 10 provinces (and 3 territories), Ontario and Quebec.

Toronto alone has a population of 5 million which is 14% of the entire Canadian population, even London has only 12% of the UK population

That's relevant. But also relevant is that Canadians just don't get that close to one another. In my limited experience, conversation with Canadians tends to be shouted from several feet away. While Italians get slightly closer than is comfortable for a Brit.

'Slightly' working quite hard in your final sentence.

"Heading for a summer of chaos and confusion" is remarkably mild language from SKS. Is he still thinking he's in court? Judges prefer not to accept proposals that lead to chaos and confusion. Many tabloid readers just want to go down the pub and breathe all over each other at the bar. SKS is Neil Kinnock maybe - greatest achievement in domestic politics being the party's survival in some kind of shape.

There seems to be some kind of parallel between 2020 and 2021 even despite the difference with regard to vaccination.

CarlottaVance said:

TOPPING said:

I've just been pinged.

By Netflix. Telling me there is a film I might like - Once upon a Time in Hollywood.

I think it is a rule that any film with "Hollywood" in its name, or which is for the film industry self-referential (eg. Mank) is just rubbish.

It's quite good fun - and knowing the horrific true story I enjoyed the "Hollywood ending"!

Hmmm maybe I will have to watch it. Perhaps I could pretend it is a box set of five 30min episodes and then I would binge watch all of them in one sitting to fool my brain I'm not sitting down for a 2hr 40mins film.

kjh said:

IanB2 said:

kjh said:

IanB2 said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Leon said:

Roger said:

DavidL said:

Roger said:

I've not been following the pandemic in any sort of detail. Just listening to the news and government spokespeople. While our vaccine program was purring like a Ferrari Europe's were limping along like a Lada Riva with a puncture. Tory poster's on here have been crowing about our ingenuity and delighting in our good fortune at being-dare I say it-BRITISH!

1. FIRST in Europe for total number of cases.
2. FIRST in Europe for total number of deaths.
3. FIRST in Europe for total of NEW cases.
4. FIRST in Europe for total number of NEW deaths.

Roger, this is just total nonsense.
1. France and Russia have both had more cases
2. Russia has more deaths, on a per million analysis there are a host of countries ahead of us.
3. Russia has more new cases. And we do massively more testing than anyone else.
4. Total rubbish. In the last 7 days Italy, Germany and France (as well as Russia) have all had more deaths than us.

Why do you write this stuff?

I should perhaps have replaced 'Europe' with 'EU'. Had I done so the only number which is incorrect on YESTERDAY'S figures is France which had marginally more total cases than us.

Which would also have been laughably wrong. We’re not in the EU. Perhaps you missed that evolution, as you fumbled with your Blackberry under your tartan blanket, trying to tune into the Home Service

I am surprised that Brexiteers haven't insisted we go back to calling Radio 2 "The Home Service", which they can listen to on their new fangled "wireless", particularly enjoying the sublime commentary of John Arlott. When the odd run is scored they will applaud politely and mutter "hear hear" with their pipe of baccy clenched between their teeth, whilst thinking it is all jolly good that we are back in the 1950s with ration books and good old navy blue passports.

Such ignorance is shocking.

Radio Four was the Home Service.

Radio Two was the Light Programme.

Damn, damn, damn. I was just about to post that. Might as well point out although far too late that Radio 3 was the Third Programme.

I thought that was ITV? Although my mother always called it the third channel, so maybe not.

So you are not really an oldie then?

Why would she call it the 3rd channel when there were only 2? Ian I'm starting to think you must be a real whipper snapper if your mum is so young she is post BBC2 when the 3rd channel came along.

I just remembered on pre programmed TVs post BBC2 ITV was always the 3rd button. Sorry ignore me I'm having a conversation with myself.