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We are Getting too excited over Galloway – politicalbetting.com

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  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,405
    Carnyx said:

    Schools closed in Scotland for the summer, which is just as well. But perhaps you mean more generally.
    Yes, sorry, I should have been clearer. I'm sure the charts for England look similar. Schools are open for another few weeks down here and it seems that cases are really spreading.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601
    Scott_xP said:

    That was back when being a Conservative was important.

    Now at the Court of King BoZo, Carrie Antionette's blessing is key.
    Yes, Boris Johnson is well known for taking into careful consideration the wishes and feelings of his spouse.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,568
    MattW said:

    That's interesting. I haven't bothered to trace whether Germany got Delta straight from India or via the UK - which can perhaps be done via one of the sequencing database sites.

    It is true that the UK has by far the largest Indian-extract community in Europe (1.4 milllion, I think the next is Italy at 50k), which is relevant.

    To my eye the far bigger risks for the EU-27 are enforced opening of internal borders, and vaccine takeup.

    Also, I wonder about the difference between our wave now, and a wave later in the year (though it hopefully won't happen).

    We shall see.
    Italy looks to have deaths and hospital occupancy near crossover with the UK on its way down and no huge signals that Delta is established yet.

    The highest rates detected in any Italian province are below 50 per 100k at the moment, mainly in Sicily and other places in the South, which also have quite high positivity (up to 8% in some regions). These have been higher prevalence areas for a few weeks. There may an effect from Mediterranean immigration, but the high rate in Basilicata seems less obvious.

    The one to watch out for is 5% positivity in Emilia-Romagna and a warm spot concentrated on Parma. According to the Indians in Italy Wikipedia page, 60% of the employment in the Parmesan industry is of Punjabi Sikhs, and so Parma could well be a likely direct Delta seeding spot for Italy.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,367
    Pulpstar said:

    The R for a packed unvaxxed pub must be about 30 lol.
    There are cases in Australia with the Delta variant that have been traced where the contact is described as fleeting. None of this "2 metres for 15 minutes" nonsense, more like 15 seconds in the same room.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,195
    Sandpit said:

    It’s almost as if vaccines work...
    It's almost as if our current surge of cases amongst the young is because we were too bloody slow in vaccinating them in May and June.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,247
    Stocky said:

    Yes, same here. But they know even less about the science and ethical concerns than I do. Peer pressure can't trump what is lowest risk approach for them. There will be arguments in households up and down the land over this.

    I posted about this a couple of months ago. I have a 15 year old and a 17 year old, my default position is that I would not encourage them to be vaccinated until they are 18 and can make their own decision. But what if they demand to be vaccinated - do I refuse consent?
    My daughters were arguing away at the dinner table about adverse reactions vs Twitter anti-vax vs herd immunity. They are trying to inform themselves - as are many of their peers.

    How many medications do you let them take - just because the doctor recommends it? How many other vaccinations?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    kle4 said:

    Spouses and partners will have influence. But when everything gets ascribed to them I call foul immediately.
    There’s two issues with this particular partner.

    She used to work in comms for the party, so she knows everyone professionally.

    She has no formal role in No.10, but is widely believed to have a significant informal role, attending meetings etc. Rather like Mr Hancock’s lady friend, and her token role to get her a door pass.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,195
    kle4 said:

    He knows better than them no doubt.
    He does in fairness go on to explain that they have different histories but that in itself is unbelievably patronising and ignorant. The article suggests that they have different presents, some having to deal with the day to day criminality of the Putin regime and some happy to turn a blind eye to it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Wonder how that will work?

    Here are the demands independent Scotland should make of foreign firms

    https://www.thenational.scot/business/19402904.demands-independent-scotland-make-foreign-firms/
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,279

    My daughters were arguing away at the dinner table about adverse reactions vs Twitter anti-vax vs herd immunity. They are trying to inform themselves - as are many of their peers.

    How many medications do you let them take - just because the doctor recommends it? How many other vaccinations?
    The medications they currently take and MMR vaccinations they had when they were young were agreed on the balance of probabilities to be best for them individually.

    I don't think any doctor will actively recommend that a healthy under 18 year old gets vaccinated against Covid but I may be wrong.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    Sandpit said:

    It’s almost as if vaccines work...
    Maybe That chart says a bit of the opposite? It’s almost as if locking the oldies away in lockdown restrictions or post restrictions fear, so they aren’t exposed to it so we don’t yet know?

    It’s a fantastic chart. But is it showing how vaccines work or that how some older age groups just aren’t yet out there like they were?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601
    Sandpit said:

    There’s two issues with this particular partner.

    She used to work in comms for the party, so she knows everyone professionally.

    She has no formal role in No.10, but is widely believed to have a significant informal role, attending meetings etc. Rather like Mr Hancock’s lady friend, and her token role to get her a door pass.
    Granted, but the level and vitriol of the briefing against her comes across as a stereotypical 'evil wife' trope.

    I dont much like it, but if people are this worried about spousal influence then maybe the American approach is better
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,635

    On your first paragraph, those leaflets on Starmer were a disgrace. I suspect they're not from Galloway, but the far right. Both Jayda Fransen and Ann Marie Waters are standing in B&S - in case anybody doesn't know, they both have links to BNP, Britain First, EDL, Tommy Robinson etc. On your second paragraph, I think you're right, though 'Palestine' remains a cause of great resentment for some.

    I found a list of all 16 candidates here, with brief biographical details available by clicking on the names, in case anybody's interested:

    https://whocanivotefor.co.uk/elections/parl.batley-and-spen.by.2021-07-01/batley-and-spen/
    What an uninspiring field.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,678
    Carnyx said:



    THank you. Oh dear! One can see that it wouldn't take much more for the situation to become hopeless for many people, particularly the more disorganised or vulnerable.

    Yes, that's something I saw again and again with constituency problems. On the whole, the welfare state works pretty well if you're literate, have a computer, and are perfectly organised and well-informed about the options. If I were made homeless and penniless tomorrow I reckon I'd know what I needed to do, but many people who need help are not at all aware. And they get blocked by regulations and in some cases exploited by crooks.

    That's where the much-derided constituency work of MPs plays a role. MPs usually know what to do (or who to ask) and have the authority to get it sorted. Ex-prisoner/refugee/care home resident/person X with dementia onset tends not to get listened to. X with the local MP threatening to go to the papers with a report on how he's being treated is in a much stronger position. Nor is that political - virtually any MP of any party will help if they can.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,681

    Well, she's my wife (we live apart), and I played the "don't be ridiculous, I'm a former MP and we've been married for 20 years and lived in different places across Britain" card - I don't usually use my former job to sound important but in this case it seemed justified. She dug out an expired copy of her passport and the agent surrendered. A coy of her birth certificate would I think have worked too, but would have taken time as the original was long since lost.
    I'm amazed they swallowed that. If my agent did that, they'd get the hairdryer treatment. Mine is to the letter, no exceptions. I wouldn't accept a personal letter from the Queen.

    Since they are just an agent, they are acting on behalf of the LL, who will be responsible.

    The penalties are vicious. £3000 civil penalty per tenant (like all Civil Penalties it is a bit of a cash cow for local authorities), and that is eg x5 in a 5 person household, and for all I know may be xX for several different mini-offences, and up to 5 years in prison, and a criminal record, if it is treated that way.

    The Home Office have a 38 page document just for the "penalties".
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/934469/right-to-rent-landlords-v7.0-gov-uk.pdf

    And it would be disclosable under the 'have you ever been found guilty of any offences under and housing legislation' question on any Landlord License form. (They never specify what 'housing legislation' comprises in the notes). Which is then a reason for denial of a license, and seriously damages the livelihood.

    Hundreds have been fined, and the cost of the paperwork has to go on the rent as ever.

    Obviously Local Authorities and Housing Associations are not treated as being in scope of the legislation, as they (presumably) have an 'equivalent'.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,247
    gealbhan said:

    Maybe That chart says a bit of the opposite? It’s almost as if locking the oldies away in lockdown restrictions or post restrictions fear, so they aren’t exposed to it so we don’t yet know?

    It’s a fantastic chart. But is it showing how vaccines work or that how some older age groups just aren’t yet out there like they were?
    We have watched, week after week as the relative case rates in older people dropped, following the progress of the vaccination program through the population.

    We even had "CROSSOVER!" several times on such charts....

    The current situation is the reverse of how COVID was before - it is an old persons disease. Or was.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Dickson, is not a legitimate referendum a UK Government matter?

    Not necessarily. Supreme Court May well have to decide, although the day after the SNP landslide last month Michael Gove said that HMG would not be taking this to court.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,635

    Doesn't this whole Lady MacBeth narrative on Carrie Symonds come from Dominic Cummings? He seems to have a weird obsession with her, there's something odd going on there.

    There’s more than an air of misogyny about it.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,610

    Well, she's my wife (we live apart), and I played the "don't be ridiculous, I'm a former MP and we've been married for 20 years and lived in different places across Britain" card - I don't usually use my former job to sound important but in this case it seemed justified. She dug out an expired copy of her passport and the agent surrendered. A coy of her birth certificate would I think have worked too, but would have taken time as the original was long since lost.
    An expired passport should be accepted. You do not usually lose your right to live in the UK just because your passport expires.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,795
    Dura_Ace said:

    I thought of an absolute groin-wrecker of a caption but the easily offended bourgeoisie on here would suck the joy out of it.
    Is that the caption ?
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    glw said:

    There are cases in Australia with the Delta variant that have been traced where the contact is described as fleeting. None of this "2 metres for 15 minutes" nonsense, more like 15 seconds in the same room.
    It reminds me of the early stages of Covid where one guy managed to infect everyone in a nightclub, there was lots of talk of certain people being superspreaders. Perhaps they had the delta variant.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    After the RA's imbroglio over people "taking offence" Scotrail gets it right:

    https://news.stv.tv/scotland/scotrail-claps-back-after-complaint-over-rainbow-pride-train?top
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,151
    IN FULL 🚨 Leaked minutes in which DHSC's 2nd permanent secretary describes Matt Hancock's use of his private Gmail

    Meeting was to discuss @GoodLawProject challenge of Covid-19 tests contract

    Officials told it would be difficult to access evidence from Hancock + Lord Bethell
    https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1408852819680051202 https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1409433086962634758/photo/1
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    We have watched, week after week as the relative case rates in older people dropped, following the progress of the vaccination program through the population.

    We even had "CROSSOVER!" several times on such charts....

    The current situation is the reverse of how COVID was before - it is an old persons disease. Or was.
    I totally agree with you. It’s what the chart is saying I am questioning, not the vaccines. People reading the chart as though all age groups now live the same with jabs.

    Even though what you call old or sick people can live without many lockdown restrictions, it doesn’t mean they are. If government declares less restrictions does that change people’s fear like a switch?

    I might be wrong, but if I’m right we need to build some degree of self isolating in charts even after Freedom Day.

    Nor have any of the charts got middle aged WFH lazy scrounges back to work with a passion yet.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,795
    DavidL said:

    Fantastic first line:
    "French President Emmanuel Macron thinks his fellow leaders from Poland and the Baltics are Russophobic,,.."

    Now, there are plenty of proper historians on this site but I could have a wild stab at why that might be so.
    I think 'misplaced' is ... misplaced.
    ...they insist on an unnecessarily tough policy toward Moscow out of misplaced paranoia....
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,635

    Wonder how that will work?

    Here are the demands independent Scotland should make of foreign firms

    https://www.thenational.scot/business/19402904.demands-independent-scotland-make-foreign-firms/

    Oil doesn’t have a viable future ?

    Really.

    So we are just going to stop using plastics and other oils based products then, just like that.

    The whole article is just bonkers. No businesses in their right mind would move to Scotland.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,247

    An expired passport should be accepted. You do not usually lose your right to live in the UK just because your passport expires.
    Somewhere, a Jobsworth is writhing in agony from the whiplash caused by a broken clipboard.

    "An expired passport should be accepted" ?!?

    Next you will be suggesting that walking on the grass is actually legal......
  • isamisam Posts: 41,349

    On the basis of what is the (possibly mythical) origin of the name Pet Shop Boys, is the funnel for popping the gerbil down?
    Ignorance is bliss! I just thought they looked like a PSB tribute act.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,247
    edited June 2021
    gealbhan said:

    I totally agree with you. It’s what the chart is saying I am questioning, not the vaccines. People reading the chart as though all age groups now live the same with jabs.

    Even though what you call old or sick people can live without many lockdown restrictions, it doesn’t mean they are. If government declares less restrictions does that change people’s fear like a switch?

    I might be wrong, but if I’m right we need to build some degree of self isolating in charts even after Freedom Day.

    Nor have any of the charts got middle aged WFH lazy scrounges back to work with a passion yet.
    My Aunt, who lives in a sheltered block of flats, say that 97% of her fellow inmates have Colditz'd the fences and are gallivanting around.

    If the numbers on Delta are vaguely right, they have been exposed. If nothing else, they use cabs non-stop....
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,151
    Emily Maitlis breached new BBC Twitter guidelines with 'clearly controversial' retweet of Piers Morgan-"If failing to quarantine properly is punishable by 10yrs in prison, what is the punishment for failing to properly protect the country from a pandemic?”
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/contact/ecu/emily-maitlis-twitter-account-february-2021

    Not really worth being on Twitter if you work at the BBC if you're going to end up in a four month internal investigation for this retweet. (This is one of first sanctions under new BBC social media rules, brought in after government kept getting angry at BBC Twitter accounts.) https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1409450098292105217
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,786
    edited June 2021
    I foresee an absolutely huge superspreader event in England tomorrow.

    I do wonder if the government should be advising those that are not yet double-vaccinated that it would be unwise to watch England v. Germany inside a heaving pub or even a heaving household given the transmissibility of Delta.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422

    Only 27% of Brits want to re-join the EU

    "Which comes closest to your view?"

    Re-join EU 27%
    Stay out but get closer 20%
    Stay as we are 20%
    Stay out & get more distant 22%

    Opinium, don't knows exlc.


    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1409447378269134850?s=20
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,681
    edited June 2021

    An expired passport should be accepted. You do not usually lose your right to live in the UK just because your passport expires.
    I think an expired passport would only be acceptable for a British Citizen, and as of today EU/EEA Citizens. There is a new CoP coming in on July 1st. Not only an expired US passport. A separate proof of Right to Remain for the duration would be required, such as a biometric Residency Card.
    https://www.flagship-homes.co.uk/media/1692/right-to-rent-acceptable-documents.pdf

    If she did not have the required docs/combo of docs, I *think* the LL/Agent has to report it to the Home Office. Ditto if the Right to Rent expires during the tenancy. Not to do so may well be offences.

    This whole leaning tower of BS is one of the things that has made me much more sympathetic to Identity Cards.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 9,266
    theProle said:

    Surely the length of training is largely in proportion to the difficulty of the task rather than the risks involved.

    I would expect it to take longer to learn to fly a light aircraft than to learn to drive, as flying an aircraft is a more complex task, even though with a light aircraft almost all the risk accrues to myself or passengers voluntarily travelling with me, whilst there is a fairly high risk of poor car driving killing other unrelated parties.

    If I'm handling a theoretical material which if dropped will detonate and destroy the facility, then its important I grasp this fact, and any rules about handling it which are therefore imposed. Its not necessary helpful for me to spend days walking round with an empty glass bottle practicing not dropping it! It may be I can learn what is required (eg always carry it in a surrounding container of neutralising material) in 15 minutes.
    Yes, of course. I noted in another reply that I was wrong to link length of training with risks.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,195

    Wonder how that will work?

    Here are the demands independent Scotland should make of foreign firms

    https://www.thenational.scot/business/19402904.demands-independent-scotland-make-foreign-firms/

    That article is one of the scariest things I have read in a long time. The capital flight from Scotland if this looks close to coming to pass would be irreparable. Our tax base could seriously collapse and the implied threat of stealing pensions to bank this madness will result in not only the money but many people leaving the country.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    My Aunt, who lives in a sheltered block of flats, say that 97% of her fellow inmates have Colditz'd the fences and are gallivanting around.

    If the numbers on Delta are vaguely right, they have been exposed. If nothing else, they use cabs non-stop....
    Nice bit of anecdotal. I’ve got anecdotal from cricket membership says opposite. Both bits of anecdotal don’t actually proving disproving the question I am asking though.

    Is reading the data making uniform assumption on behaviours? All horses taken to the ‘freedom water’ are all ages drinking?

    I’m sorry such questions don’t fit the narrative you are creating and pushing, but it is a fair question.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,012

    The question was if they're legally a woman, not self-identifying as one.

    You can in law now be legally a woman with a penis.
    Ludicrous.. and conversely a man without one ?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    TimS said:

    By the time it hits Europe properly though most countries will be as vaccinated, or almost so, as the UK. The USA is the real mystery. Cases are down to virtually zero, yet the country is almost completely open and in many places unvaccinated. And Delta is there, even if not as heavily seeded as here. It surely can't defy the laws of epidemiology forever can it, especially given what's happening in Latin America?

    Maybe the key thing is superspreader events. Time and time again we've seen large scale gatherings caused by holidays and festivals (Italian ski trips last year, Holi in India this spring, now a Scottish outbreak apparently caused by Euro 2020 with massive surges in males aged 20-44). Avoid these big events and the little flares of growth seem to meander along without taking off. Some evidence from those indoor Trump rallies last year too. Like when you pitch yeast into a home brew, if you don't put enough in then sometimes it just doesn't take hold. If you chuck a load in it gets going quickly and chugs along.
    We still don't understand it well enough. Look at Sweden and the lacks of deaths they had during their third wave. Basically inexplicable given our current understanding of Covid.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Er, no. If the National Museum of Scotland wants to give back stuff, that's entirely up to them - but it does not remotely mean the British Museum has to too.....

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/19402893.pressure-grows-uk-hand-back-elgin-marbles-scottish-decision/
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    The other thing against it, though, is that experienced canvassers aren't seeing it. It was obvious in Hartlepool that we were losing big time and countless Labour canvassers predicted it. Here, we are only seeing even moderately significant Galloway support in the two Muslim wards, and even there it's not a majority. I think you're right for the single segment of young Muslims, who do (probably correctly) think that Starmer isn't especially interested in Palestine, but that's perhaps 5% of the electorate.

    Personally I think the Labour-Galloway gap (which is what the Ladbrokes bet is about) will be over 20 percentage points. i think it's free money, but of course DYOR.
    Cheers Nick. Agreed on what you have said, it should be Galloway only picking up a few votes. However, it does feel there is a toxic element in the B&S by-election and I think it was mentioned here of reports of Labour activists complaining about the environment and even eggs being thrown. That might be a very small minority causing a decent amount of trouble but those sorts of events happen when the atmosphere is febrile and there are definitely a few reasons - local and national - that feed into Galloway's narrative. I'm not betting on it anyway - Hartlepool seemed an easy one to call, this one far less so.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,786
    edited June 2021


    Only 27% of Brits want to re-join the EU

    "Which comes closest to your view?"

    Re-join EU 27%
    Stay out but get closer 20%
    Stay as we are 20%
    Stay out & get more distant 22%

    Opinium, don't knows exlc.


    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1409447378269134850?s=20

    Yes, but nobody sensible thinks re-joining is a medium-term option. An alternative reading is that 47% think we should be closer to the EU, and 42% think we shouldn't, with only 22% wanting us to move further out into the Atlantic (assuming that's what "more distant" means).
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,151
    Robert Buckland’s response this AM to @bbcnickrobinson asking why PM didn’t sack Matt Hancock was that “it’s dancing on the head of a pin.”

    But it’s not- v big difference between a prime minister axing a minister as sanction and a minister resigning for political pressure.

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1409454274090876929
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,247
    gealbhan said:

    Nice bit of anecdotal. I’ve got anecdotal from cricket membership says opposite. Both bits of anecdotal don’t actually proving disproving the question I am asking though.

    Is reading the data making uniform assumption on behaviours? All horses taken to the ‘freedom water’ are all ages drinking?

    I’m sorry such questions don’t fit the narrative you are creating and pushing, but it is a fair question.
    If the case rates moved as the vaccines moved through the population, it would be a very complex coincidence. One that has been maintained at multi country level for multiple months. Israel saw exactly the same thing, for example as have other countries that vaccinated their elderly populations first.

    So either the coffin dodgers have become expert COVID dodgers to an incredible degree, across multiple countries. Or the vaccinations do what they are supposed to do.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,580
    DavidL said:

    That article is one of the scariest things I have read in a long time. The capital flight from Scotland if this looks close to coming to pass would be irreparable. Our tax base could seriously collapse and the implied threat of stealing pensions to bank this madness will result in not only the money but many people leaving the country.
    O/t, of course, but glad to see you back Mr L. I've only just looked back in today....... gym and a bit of shopping ..... so don't know if you're still in hospital, back at home & resting or back to normality.
    Hope it's the latter, and best wishes.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,151
    Revealed: I understand Nissan will confirm as soon as this week details of its EV strategy for the UK, including the construction of a battery gigafactory in Sunderland - paving the way for thousands of the Japanese company's electric cars to be built in Britain every year.
    https://twitter.com/MarkKleinmanSky/status/1409455006600814596
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,858

    Mmm. But if you leave aside the eye-popping (not sure how to measure that) you're describing what I'd call a lively debate. The vice-chair sounds unreasonable but I've been called worse than a privatiser and that's show business. If you argued that many left-wingers are one-sided in their views I wouldn't disagree, but not only left-wingers. And I do agree that the personalised flavour of the meeting sounds unpleasant.

    Arguing with voters is interesting - where do you draw the line? Clare Short was widely admired for telling a racist that she didn't want his vote; my preference is to politely argue them down, and I've had some success in talking round even quite deranged-seeming people, like the chap who sent me a photoshopped picture of myself as a concentration camp victim (he was clearly nuts, but after extensive polite correspondence, he became quite friendly though still nuts). But there's a case for saying that if someone expresses really vile opinions to you, you're enabling them if you don't say so.
    My take on doorstep run-ins was always to remember the need to get on and talk to the next person. Almost everyone has an opinion that is honestly gained no matter how mad it may be. You aren't going to win people over by telling them they should stop being lied to by the Daily Mail (as one example). if you run into an open racist like Claire Short in your example then note them off as against on the sheet and move on.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,522
    edited June 2021

    Er, no. If the National Museum of Scotland wants to give back stuff, that's entirely up to them - but it does not remotely mean the British Museum has to too.....

    https://www.thenational.scot/news/19402893.pressure-grows-uk-hand-back-elgin-marbles-scottish-decision/

    One might give the Greeks the Elgin marbles as an act of generosity, but there is little question that they were acquired legitimately.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,858
    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anyone know how the logistics of Priti's Rwandan Gulag are going to work? Are the demandeurs d'asile getting plucked off the beach Dungeness, put on a bus to Stansted and then a charter flight to Kigali?

    If traffic is bad on the M20 there may be time for a legal appeal.

    Like most of their proposals it won't go further than the initial headlines.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,580

    Yes, but nobody sensible thinks re-joining is a medium-term option. An alternative reading is that 47% think we should be closer to the EU, and 42% think we shouldn't, with only 22% wanting us to move further out into the Atlantic (assuming that's what "more distant" means).
    A bit difficult to see how we could get 'more distant'.

    Unless N. Ireland rejoins the rest of Ireland, and the Channel Tunnel is closed.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,247

    I hesitate to advise on someone else's family decisions, but I think at 15-17 with a potentially very serious illness around, it's reasonable to let them have the vaccination if they want to.
    It would be an interesting legal question as to when they could make that decision themselves - and would the GP be be bound to ask the parents first. 16?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    On topic, a few in the right wing press have got hold of something purporting to be a labour leaflet that looks a bit naughty. Bigs up conservative links with Modi...

    It might not be an official leaflet though so reserve judgement.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,681
    DavidL said:

    That article is one of the scariest things I have read in a long time. The capital flight from Scotland if this looks close to coming to pass would be irreparable. Our tax base could seriously collapse and the implied threat of stealing pensions to bank this madness will result in not only the money but many people leaving the country.
    Leaving aside all the rest, I can see this one positively driving existing businesses away:


    - A binding commitment on overseas companies under which they are obliged to offer first refusal to a management/worker takeover of a business in the event of the overseas owners deciding to close down production in Scotland. The commitment should also include a transfer or sharing of “intellectual property” (IP) such as product brands and patents.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    I note that since this went live the price has fallen from 1/4 to 1/6, which is probably still value tbh.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,681

    I hesitate to advise on someone else's family decisions, but I think at 15-17 with a potentially very serious illness around, it's reasonable to let them have the vaccination if they want to.
    Is this not one where GPs have discretion?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,195

    I hesitate to advise on someone else's family decisions, but I think at 15-17 with a potentially very serious illness around, it's reasonable to let them have the vaccination if they want to.
    My son is 18 next month and has already been offered a vaccine a day before his birthday. He didn't even hesitate. Taking it was a no brainer. That age group have suffered far more disruption, loss and disappointment than the rest of us and, on the small sample of his pals, are utterly focused on seeing the back of this before it takes even more away from them.

    He didn't even bother to seek my advice but I think that he is absolutely right about this. Vaccination is the price of freedom so pay it.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,858
    Scott_xP said:

    Revealed: I understand Nissan will confirm as soon as this week details of its EV strategy for the UK, including the construction of a battery gigafactory in Sunderland - paving the way for thousands of the Japanese company's electric cars to be built in Britain every year.
    https://twitter.com/MarkKleinmanSky/status/1409455006600814596

    Are Nissan Renault planning to spend any money investing in their drivetrain? A gigafactory in Sunderland only works if they have an EV to sell that doesn't have decade old technology like the Leaf. Even the Ariya has a claimed 3.5 miles / kWh which in reality will be closer to 3 miles - what is it with new EVs being released with such awful efficiency?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,538
    Scott_xP said:

    Emily Maitlis breached new BBC Twitter guidelines with 'clearly controversial' retweet of Piers Morgan-"If failing to quarantine properly is punishable by 10yrs in prison, what is the punishment for failing to properly protect the country from a pandemic?”
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/contact/ecu/emily-maitlis-twitter-account-february-2021

    Not really worth being on Twitter if you work at the BBC if you're going to end up in a four month internal investigation for this retweet. (This is one of first sanctions under new BBC social media rules, brought in after government kept getting angry at BBC Twitter accounts.) https://twitter.com/jimwaterson/status/1409450098292105217

    BiB - seems sensible to me. Working at the BBC is a huge privilege, I doesn't seem like a huge sacrifice to have to be very careful about what you do on social media.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,247
    Sean_F said:

    One might give the Greeks the Elgin marbles as an act of generosity, but there is little question that they were acquired legitimately.
    Given that the money used to create the Elgin marbles was stolen from the Athenian League, not sure that Athens is really the right spot.... :-)
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,151
    Health Secretary @sajidjavid says the next step out of lockdown will be "irreversible" and "there's no going back".

    Understand the desire for optimism and really hope he's right but this feels like a hostage to fortune.
    https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1409455133788880898
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,247

    Are Nissan Renault planning to spend any money investing in their drivetrain? A gigafactory in Sunderland only works if they have an EV to sell that doesn't have decade old technology like the Leaf. Even the Ariya has a claimed 3.5 miles / kWh which in reality will be closer to 3 miles - what is it with new EVs being released with such awful efficiency?
    They have a choice - adapt or die. Nearly all the worlds car makers have finally made that choice...
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Totally O/T, I have been following the claim by Jim Bolger regarding doping in Irish Racing. If you remember Cheltenham this year Irish horses completely domintated and there were some jaw dropping levels of improvement by some horses. eg Flooring Porter in the Stayers Hurdle.

    Now since Jim Bolgers statement the form of some of the top yards in Ireland has taken a complete nosedive and their horses are running dreadful.

    Look at the Irish Derby at the weekend, the first three home were British trained and the O.Brien favourite finished tailed off.

    There is definitely something going on.
  • TazTaz Posts: 17,635

    Ludicrous.. and conversely a man without one ?
    Indeed. Men do now give birth.

    How nice for them.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,858
    After the horrific faux Labour leaflet in B&S, we now have the horrific real one

    https://twitter.com/RicHolden/status/1409444990019854340
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,195
    MattW said:

    Leaving aside all the rest, I can see this one positively driving existing businesses away:


    - A binding commitment on overseas companies under which they are obliged to offer first refusal to a management/worker takeover of a business in the event of the overseas owners deciding to close down production in Scotland. The commitment should also include a transfer or sharing of “intellectual property” (IP) such as product brands and patents.
    These people are a bunch of self appointed nutters but jeez. I remember one of the many excellent scenes in the Big Short
    https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/73c98341-6f2c-48ea-8c02-33b3c7538cb8
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Awkward:

    THE Scottish feminist campaigner being defended against a hate crime charge by SNP MP Joanna Cherry has endorsed Alex Salmond’s Alba Party.

    Marion Millar said she had voted for Alba on the Central Scotland list at the recent Scottish election “because they stand up for my rights as a woman”.


    https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19403612.marion-millar-scottish-feminist-charged-hate-crime-backs-salmonds-alba-party/?ref=twtrec
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,247

    After the horrific faux Labour leaflet in B&S, we now have the horrific real one

    https://twitter.com/RicHolden/status/1409444990019854340

    Ah, Communalism, UK style.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,291

    It would be an interesting legal question as to when they could make that decision themselves - and would the GP be be bound to ask the parents first. 16?
    If they are deemed competent to make an informed consent, by weighing up the pro's and cons, then age per se does not matter. This is known as Gillick Competence, based on the legal precedent from the Eighties.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4962726/
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    UK asks for extension of the chilled meats grace period. EU finally rubber-stamps the data adequacy decision. These are the building blocks for a new, less confrontational relationship.

    https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/1409457574198534148?s=20
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,580
    Scott_xP said:

    Health Secretary @sajidjavid says the next step out of lockdown will be "irreversible" and "there's no going back".

    Understand the desire for optimism and really hope he's right but this feels like a hostage to fortune.
    https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1409455133788880898

    If I were Javid I wait until I'd had more than ten minutes briefing before giving such hostages to fortune.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,795

    After the horrific faux Labour leaflet in B&S, we now have the horrific real one

    https://twitter.com/RicHolden/status/1409444990019854340

    That's a dog whistle and a half...

    How has this become so very very toxic on the left. Grim stuff.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235

    After the horrific faux Labour leaflet in B&S, we now have the horrific real one

    https://twitter.com/RicHolden/status/1409444990019854340

    Looks like the Zac Goldsmith playbook.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    After the horrific faux Labour leaflet in B&S, we now have the horrific real one

    https://twitter.com/RicHolden/status/1409444990019854340

    Does this mean all the 'isn't Galloway awful' pearl clutchers will have to get off the outrage bus?
  • theakestheakes Posts: 960
    Am starting to seriously wonder whether Hancock can hang on as an MP?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,247
    Foxy said:

    If they are deemed competent to make an informed consent, by weighing up the pro's and cons, then age per se does not matter. This is known as Gillick Competence, based on the legal precedent from the Eighties.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4962726/
    [Consent] protects the [health professional] from claims by the litigious whether they acquire it from their patient, who may be a minor over the age of 16 or a ‘Gillick competent’ child under that age, or from another person having parental responsibilities which include a right to consent to treatment of the minor.

    Anyone who gives him consent may take it back, but the [health professional] only needs one and so long as they continue to have one they have the legal right to proceed.


    So the age of 16 does have some effect in this?
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    Pulpstar said:

    Looks like the Zac Goldsmith playbook.
    Cynical, certainly
    Effective, definitely
  • isamisam Posts: 41,349

    That's a dog whistle and a half...

    How has this become so very very toxic on the left. Grim stuff.
    Wow is that for real? I can’t believe it can be true.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,580
    Foxy said:

    If they are deemed competent to make an informed consent, by weighing up the pro's and cons, then age per se does not matter. This is known as Gillick Competence, based on the legal precedent from the Eighties.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4962726/
    A nest of snakes, decision making in that area.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,247

    That's a dog whistle and a half...

    How has this become so very very toxic on the left. Grim stuff.
    Well, if you hang out with people, their beliefs and attitudes can rub off. Particularly if your ideology prevent you from calling them out on the bad shit.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,291

    [Consent] protects the [health professional] from claims by the litigious whether they acquire it from their patient, who may be a minor over the age of 16 or a ‘Gillick competent’ child under that age, or from another person having parental responsibilities which include a right to consent to treatment of the minor.

    Anyone who gives him consent may take it back, but the [health professional] only needs one and so long as they continue to have one they have the legal right to proceed.


    So the age of 16 does have some effect in this?
    If over 16 then Gillick competence is assumed, if under 16 then it needs to be assessed.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,247
    Foxy said:

    If over 16 then Gillick competence is assumed, if under 16 then it needs to be assessed.
    That matches with what I'd understood - that *preventing* a child over 16 making a medical decision of this kind (contraception being the classic) would be actually the issue.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    edited June 2021
    theakes said:

    Am starting to seriously wonder whether Hancock can hang on as an MP?

    The Tories would just about hand on with the same swing to the Lib Dems as was achieved in Chesham and Amersham, and the LDs are starting from a much lower base here (And 3rd place) so such a swing is less likely. But I don't think more by-elections in southern defenses are wanted for the Tories.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,538

    After the horrific faux Labour leaflet in B&S, we now have the horrific real one

    https://twitter.com/RicHolden/status/1409444990019854340

    :(

    It's a vicious circle. The worse Labour do with voters who aren't part of some bloc, the more they court the bloc votes.

    I said the other day, I'd vote Labour in B&S to try and prevent Galloway getting a victory. But not if Labour are doing things like this.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited June 2021
    Looking at the euro outright odds, the winner of England/Germany will almost certainly become the tournament favourite.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,580
    Foxy said:

    If over 16 then Gillick competence is assumed, if under 16 then it needs to be assessed.
    Isn't the age of 16 because that's the 'age of consent'. When I worked with Family Planning teams that was important, as many a '16' year old Basildon girl came asking for contraceptives.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601
    tlg86 said:

    BiB - seems sensible to me. Working at the BBC is a huge privilege, I doesn't seem like a huge sacrifice to have to be very careful about what you do on social media.
    Privilege or not I dont see a problem with certain jobs you needing to be careful what you say as it can negatively impact your job and your organisation given the role it has. Other jobs are unavailable.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,858

    They have a choice - adapt or die. Nearly all the worlds car makers have finally made that choice...
    No no, they didn;t adapt, they led. The Leaf was a mould-breaking car when it came out in 2011, as to a lesser extent was the Zoe. Its just that they're still making the same car, and it looks like the new one uses the same very old school tech that has been left behind by others.

    People focus on range, and in doing so miss efficiency. We don't talk about fossil cars that way - its how much fuel do they burn not how big is the fuel talk. Should be the same for EVs, where some of the companies finally adapting to EVs are bringing in chronically poor inefficient supply chains. VW's build quality and efficiency is so poor with the ID3/4 its almost as if they want their EVs to fail.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,580
    Just had a message to say that Javid says that the camera which caught Hancock has been disabled.
    Wonder why he's bothered!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Does this mean all the 'isn't Galloway awful' pearl clutchers will have to get off the outrage bus?
    They're both awful.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601

    Does this mean all the 'isn't Galloway awful' pearl clutchers will have to get off the outrage bus?
    Why would that be the case? Galloway is awful, awful actions by others doesnt affect that unless you think only one side can be awful at a time.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,151
    kle4 said:

    Privilege or not I dont see a problem with certain jobs you needing to be careful what you say as it can negatively impact your job and your organisation given the role it has. Other jobs are unavailable.

    As a journalist she could ask a minister that question on Newsnight.

    Why is she sanctioned for retweeting someone else asking it?
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,858

    Does this mean all the 'isn't Galloway awful' pearl clutchers will have to get off the outrage bus?
    Why? Galloway IS awful! That Labour have decided to join him in the gutter by putting *this* out demonstrates that they know they are losing and are prepared to try literally anything as a defence against Galloway hoovering up their voters.

    I know that Nick confidently states that Galloway is nowhere. If so why have Labour been acting the way they have? This isn't even the first such leaflet.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601

    If I were Javid I wait until I'd had more than ten minutes briefing before giving such hostages to fortune.
    Quite. Some are cynical about the use of data, but if it is data to drive things you cannot be so categorical.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    EU Commission announces adoption of data adequacy re UK. Decisions include an unprecedented four-year 'sunset clause' and come into force today. Spokes: 'Personal data can now flow freely from the EU to the UK where it benefits from an essentially equivalent level of protection.'

    https://twitter.com/nickgutteridge/status/1409460224814194689?s=20
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    ping said:

    Looking at the euro outright odds, the winner of England/Germany will almost certainly become the tournament favourite.

    England will probably go about 2-1 with the major bookies, Germany 11-4.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,195
    ping said:

    Looking at the euro outright odds, the winner of England/Germany will almost certainly become the tournament favourite.

    The draw England got in the Russia WC was pretty good but I don't think that I have ever seen such a distorted draw with pretty much all of the good teams on one side knocking 7 bells out of the others and a group of "hopefuls" on the other. One of those hopefuls will make the final against a team that has been through a war. They've got to have a chance.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Does this mean all the 'isn't Galloway awful' pearl clutchers will have to get off the outrage bus?
    Galloway is awful. If he wasn't involved, trying to stoke exactly these sorts of divisions, Labour would have had the vote he's targeting sewn up and wouldn't have to resort to these sorts of tactics.

    Anyway, Labour stooping to his level doesn't make Galloway any less awful.
This discussion has been closed.