One thing we thankfully haven’t seen in the UK – a political divide on being vaccinated – politicalb

2nd and suspicious...

Who doesn't love a good 'UK better than USA' header?

That was rhetorical, american PBers.

Get vaccinated, people!

Interesting info about level of antibodies in US in John Campbell video today....in basic terms they have had a good go at herd immunity before the vaccinations.

On topic, I did point out that via a Darwinian process the GOP might be handing the 2024 Presidential election to the Dems thanks to their antivax beliefs.

https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/04/19/we-need-to-talk-about-antivaxxer-gopers/

An indescribably moving thread, on Twitter, as people discover dead lovers, parents, pets, still alive on Google streetview

https://twitter.com/dindata/status/1405528759877308416?s=21


This has made me weep. Not denying it

Malmesbury said:

Pro_Rata said:

FPT re: Cornwall and G7:

The main hotspots are Falmouth (120 cases across 4 MSOAs, 342 per 100k), St. Ives (63 cases, 482 per 100k) and Newquay (55 cases, 210 per 100k), with pretty low rates elsewhere. Proper hotspots those.

Make of that what you will.

The places with the highest concentrations of tourists....

And media centres for G7

I wonder if these numbers would change if people realised that in the long-term the choice is not really between vaccinated and unvaccinated, but between vaccinated and natural immunity because eventually the virus will find you.

Variant Delta might swing the next election further Biden and Harris' way on those numbers.

The Telegraph has two, count 'em, two articles on how Dominic Cummings is a right ****.

The Dominic Cummings I knew at university should never have been handed the reins of power
As a student he was argumentative, awkward and arrogant - it isn't much of a surprise to see him throwing his toys out of the pram now
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/17/dominic-cummings-knew-university-should-never-have-handed-reins/ (£££)

‘There’s nothing worse than unpredictability’: Was Dominic Cummings unfit to lead from the start?
A maverick who marched to the beat of his own drum was never going to be a calm leader in a crisis
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/17/nothing-worse-unpredictability-dominic-cummings-unfit-lead-start/ (£££)

glw said:

I wonder if these numbers would change if people realised that in the long-term the choice is not really between vaccinated and unvaccinated, but between vaccinated and natural immunity because eventually the virus will find you.

Alas, the idea that COVID is just another flu-type illness is still pretty common in vaccine-hesitant areas in the US. The other factor is the faux-religious "well, if it's my time, it's my time" fatalism of a lot of the evangelical Christians, including (from my wife's experience) among educate healthcare staff.

DecrepiterJohnL said:

The Telegraph has two, count 'em, two articles on how Dominic Cummings is a right ****.

The Dominic Cummings I knew at university should never have been handed the reins of power
As a student he was argumentative, awkward and arrogant - it isn't much of a surprise to see him throwing his toys out of the pram now
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/17/dominic-cummings-knew-university-should-never-have-handed-reins/ (£££)

‘There’s nothing worse than unpredictability’: Was Dominic Cummings unfit to lead from the start?
A maverick who marched to the beat of his own drum was never going to be a calm leader in a crisis
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/17/nothing-worse-unpredictability-dominic-cummings-unfit-lead-start/ (£££)

Given his part in delivering Brexit and PMBoJo, seems more than a little ungrateful.

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Tabman said:

FPT: Trinity College has more Nobel Laureates than Oxf*rd.

Trinity has taken 22 students from Westminster School, which apparently is some sort of record for a single college/school pairing.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/17/revealed-link-westminster-school-cambridge/ (£££)

They should be limited by law to taking no more than 7% from private schools.

Given that cases are soaring do we need another lockdown, now?

I was in the pub earlier with other old people and we didn't like it if someone didn't have a mask.

Stuartinromford said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

The Telegraph has two, count 'em, two articles on how Dominic Cummings is a right ****.

The Dominic Cummings I knew at university should never have been handed the reins of power
As a student he was argumentative, awkward and arrogant - it isn't much of a surprise to see him throwing his toys out of the pram now
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/17/dominic-cummings-knew-university-should-never-have-handed-reins/ (£££)

‘There’s nothing worse than unpredictability’: Was Dominic Cummings unfit to lead from the start?
A maverick who marched to the beat of his own drum was never going to be a calm leader in a crisis
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/17/nothing-worse-unpredictability-dominic-cummings-unfit-lead-start/ (£££)

Given his part in delivering Brexit and PMBoJo, seems more than a little ungrateful.

Jeez, it's like when two drug smuggling partners fall out after years of working the game together in an episode of Narcos.

Fucks sake those 20ish year olds reckon getting Covid (Unvaxxed) will be like the "common cold" and they "don't know what the vaccine will do" (BBC News at 10, 20:22).

Playing russian roulette with their health lol

HYUFD said:

Note a fifth of Independents won't get vaccinated either and 5% of Democrats.

The 29% of Republicans who won't get vaccinated will be the type in the South and West Virginia etc who are diehard Trumpers and don't trust the Federal Government on anything

Only one film clip is appropriate:

https://youtu.be/KHJbSvidohg

Pulpstar said:

Fucks sake those 20ish year olds reckon getting Covid (Unvaxxed) will be like the "common cold" and they "don't know what the vaccine will do" (BBC News at 10, 20:22).

Playing russian roulette with their health lol

And everybody elses....

Pro_Rata said:

FPT re: Cornwall and G7:

The main hotspots are Falmouth (120 cases across 4 MSOAs, 342 per 100k), St. Ives (63 cases, 482 per 100k) and Newquay (55 cases, 210 per 100k), with pretty low rates elsewhere. Proper hotspots those.

Make of that what you will.

Concentrations of youth. And seasonal workers. And young seasonal workers.

Stuartinromford said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

The Telegraph has two, count 'em, two articles on how Dominic Cummings is a right ****.

The Dominic Cummings I knew at university should never have been handed the reins of power
As a student he was argumentative, awkward and arrogant - it isn't much of a surprise to see him throwing his toys out of the pram now
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/17/dominic-cummings-knew-university-should-never-have-handed-reins/ (£££)

‘There’s nothing worse than unpredictability’: Was Dominic Cummings unfit to lead from the start?
A maverick who marched to the beat of his own drum was never going to be a calm leader in a crisis
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/17/nothing-worse-unpredictability-dominic-cummings-unfit-lead-start/ (£££)

Given his part in delivering Brexit and PMBoJo, seems more than a little ungrateful.

I cannot see the main articles, but from the headlines I don't know that that is ungrateful - his contributions to those things may well have been positive (though I thought it was supposed to be Isaac Levido who was key to delivering PM Bojo), but the headlines there are criticising his argumentativeness and arrogance, and lack of calm in a crisis, which can be true regardless of whether he did a great job on Brexit or indeed even on these latest issues.

Indeed, people argue about how smart he is and how useful, with some thinking he is very good, but the question on that second one is about fitness to lead, which is quite distinct from whether he is smart or effective at other things.

Some people aren't leaders of men (and women). And given some of his comments he might agree that that is not where his strengths are.

londonpubman said:

Given that cases are soaring do we need another lockdown, now?

I was in the pub earlier with other old people and we didn't like it if someone didn't have a mask.

Well why were you in the pub then ?

Perhaps you should be cowering at home while yearning for higher infection numbers.

Cookie said:

Pro_Rata said:

FPT re: Cornwall and G7:

The main hotspots are Falmouth (120 cases across 4 MSOAs, 342 per 100k), St. Ives (63 cases, 482 per 100k) and Newquay (55 cases, 210 per 100k), with pretty low rates elsewhere. Proper hotspots those.

Make of that what you will.

Concentrations of youth. And seasonal workers. And young seasonal workers.

But Ibiza is going to be just fine, definitely no covid outbreak there, as all the unvaccinated young of Europe decend on a few massive nightclubs.

Cookie said:

Pro_Rata said:

FPT re: Cornwall and G7:

The main hotspots are Falmouth (120 cases across 4 MSOAs, 342 per 100k), St. Ives (63 cases, 482 per 100k) and Newquay (55 cases, 210 per 100k), with pretty low rates elsewhere. Proper hotspots those.

Make of that what you will.

Concentrations of youth. And seasonal workers. And young seasonal workers.

Note there is a university in Falmouth.

another_richard said:

londonpubman said:

Given that cases are soaring do we need another lockdown, now?

I was in the pub earlier with other old people and we didn't like it if someone didn't have a mask.

Well why were you in the pub then ?

Perhaps you should be cowering at home while yearning for higher infection numbers.

Because he's the London pub man

another_richard said:

Malmesbury said:

Pro_Rata said:

FPT re: Cornwall and G7:

The main hotspots are Falmouth (120 cases across 4 MSOAs, 342 per 100k), St. Ives (63 cases, 482 per 100k) and Newquay (55 cases, 210 per 100k), with pretty low rates elsewhere. Proper hotspots those.

Make of that what you will.

The places with the highest concentrations of tourists....

But there don't seem to be many other seaside towns affected.

Another notable thing is that the hotspots in Leeds and maybe Durham and Liverpool are in student areas.

Students have finished for the summer surely?

Cookie said:

Cookie said:

Pro_Rata said:

FPT re: Cornwall and G7:

The main hotspots are Falmouth (120 cases across 4 MSOAs, 342 per 100k), St. Ives (63 cases, 482 per 100k) and Newquay (55 cases, 210 per 100k), with pretty low rates elsewhere. Proper hotspots those.

Make of that what you will.

Concentrations of youth. And seasonal workers. And young seasonal workers.

Note there is a university in Falmouth.

Wasn't the G7 media centre there?

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

Malmesbury said:

Pro_Rata said:

FPT re: Cornwall and G7:

The main hotspots are Falmouth (120 cases across 4 MSOAs, 342 per 100k), St. Ives (63 cases, 482 per 100k) and Newquay (55 cases, 210 per 100k), with pretty low rates elsewhere. Proper hotspots those.

Make of that what you will.

The places with the highest concentrations of tourists....

But there don't seem to be many other seaside towns affected.

Another notable thing is that the hotspots in Leeds and maybe Durham and Liverpool are in student areas.

Students have finished for the summer surely?

I keep saying this but no ones listening... pretty sure most unis did online assessment so students have been home for months.

another_richard said:

londonpubman said:

Given that cases are soaring do we need another lockdown, now?

I was in the pub earlier with other old people and we didn't like it if someone didn't have a mask.

Well why were you in the pub then ?

Perhaps you should be cowering at home while yearning for higher infection numbers.

Sensible people like me don't want any cases love ♥️

turbotubbs said:

Foxy said:

another_richard said:

Malmesbury said:

Pro_Rata said:

FPT re: Cornwall and G7:

The main hotspots are Falmouth (120 cases across 4 MSOAs, 342 per 100k), St. Ives (63 cases, 482 per 100k) and Newquay (55 cases, 210 per 100k), with pretty low rates elsewhere. Proper hotspots those.

Make of that what you will.

The places with the highest concentrations of tourists....

But there don't seem to be many other seaside towns affected.

Another notable thing is that the hotspots in Leeds and maybe Durham and Liverpool are in student areas.

Students have finished for the summer surely?

I keep saying this but no ones listening... pretty sure most unis did online assessment so students have been home for months.

Aye but in Newcastle it seems quite a few students have come back to the Toon to make the most of their last few weeks of their student house leases with the pubs being open.

Chesham and Amersham by-election - latest updates throughout the night

https://www.bucksfreepress.co.uk/amersham/19381390.chesham-amersham-by-election---latest-updates-throughout-night/

10:27pm
Since the Chesham and Amersham seat was created in 1974, there have only ever been TWO MPs.

The first was Conservative Ian Gilmour, who held the seat from its creation until he retired in 1992. He died in 2007.

The second was Conservative Dame Cheryl Gillan, who held the seat from 1992 until she tragically passed away in April from cancer.

londonpubman said:

Given that cases are soaring do we need another lockdown, now?

I was in the pub earlier with other old people and we didn't like it if someone didn't have a mask.

*sigh*
They're not 'soaring'.
Any sensible look at the graphs by date of infection has them reaching a peak and already declining where they did so first.
We'll look back in a couple of weeks time and see the peak was, ooh, about the 14th.
Anyway, presumably your vaxxed by now? So you can afford to take a rather more relaxed view over whether people are marked or not.

I see on the previous thread one poster has luxuriated in trashing the AZ vaccine. On this thread another poster was calling for another lockdown from the pub.

londonpubman said:

another_richard said:

londonpubman said:

Given that cases are soaring do we need another lockdown, now?

I was in the pub earlier with other old people and we didn't like it if someone didn't have a mask.

Well why were you in the pub then ?

Perhaps you should be cowering at home while yearning for higher infection numbers.

Sensible people like me don't want any cases love ♥️

The zerocovidians and antivaxxers are becoming indistinguishable from each other.

Stuartinromford said:

kle4 said:

nico679 said:

Looks like countries that primarily used Pfizer will have the best outcomes . Clearly it’s a superior vaccine to AZ especially against the Delta variant.

It's hard for a layman to judge, but particularly given the cold storage issue has been dealt with the Pfizer vaccine really does seem to have been a mighty achievement, and it was first out of the gate to boot.

And it looks like a technology which is very easy to adapt to other problems, and produce in huge quantities using the network Europe has developed. Whereas the OAZ vaccine is the swansong of a more traditional approach. The last great steam engine, when someone else has developed an electric TGV.

And whilst the OAZ vaccine combined remarkable cleverness and humanity, that doesn't excuse the sales-production mismatch, or not doing trials in a way that ensured quick approval.

While that might be true to some degree mRNA doesn't look like an easy technology to work with. The CureVac vaccine has got just 47% efficacy which is pretty poor, even the single dose J&J vaccine gets about 67% on the same measure whole AZ is about 85% with two doses at an 8 week gap and both of those use Adenovirus vectors. Novavax with viral proteins+adjuvant gets to 97% efficacy after two doses.

To me it looks like Moderna and BioNTech/Pfizer are extremely good vaccines that have leveraged a novel technology. Novavax is second best in terms of antibody response and AZ is best in terms of its t-cell response. I think there is room in the market for all 5 of them (Pfizer, Moderna, J&J, AZ and Novavax) each targeting a different part of the market. AZ for people aged 60+ looks like a slam dunk to me as it gets a good antibody response, doesn't have any side effects in the old and it seems to give very, very good long term immunity with t-cells. I think Moderna and Pfizer make sense in the young where you want a faster acting vaccine which will reduce spread and Novavax needs to be approved so we can see what real world efficacy is like rather than modelling it from trial data and antibody prevalence but in the early data it seems to do very well against variants.

londonpubman said:

Given that cases are soaring do we need another lockdown, now?

I was in the pub earlier with other old people and we didn't like it if someone didn't have a mask.

No one's forcing you to go to the pub.

Cookie said:

londonpubman said:

Given that cases are soaring do we need another lockdown, now?

I was in the pub earlier with other old people and we didn't like it if someone didn't have a mask.

*sigh*
They're not 'soaring'.
Any sensible look at the graphs by date of infection has them reaching a peak and already declining where they did so first.
We'll look back in a couple of weeks time and see the peak was, ooh, about the 14th.
Anyway, presumably your vaxxed by now? So you can afford to take a rather more relaxed view over whether people are marked or not.

Or we will look back in end June and see hospitalisations up to 500 a day...

darkage said:

It is worth thinking about the anti-vaxxers perspective.
They want to wait a bit to see what happens to those who took the vaccine, if they start dropping dead then perhaps the vaccine is not a good idea.
The trials and approvals were rushed through in a few months.
People have died due to blood clots linked to the Astra Zenica vaccine.
We have no idea at all about long term side effects of the vaccine.
All this for a disease that 99%+ of people survive.
There is little evidence on how these vaccines affect things like unborn children.
There is enormous social pressure to have the vaccine and, by the looks of things, legal compulsion in certain sectors.
It is totally unprecedented and may feel to some people like the start of some dystopian science fiction film.

I took the vaccine, personally. But it was something that I thought very carefully about. People should have the right to opt out on the understanding that they are taking their chances with Covid.

My best mate and I were having a conversation based on all those points yesterday... and we have both had the jab! I feel like an atheist who goes to church

HYUFD said:

Benpointer said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Tabman said:

FPT: Trinity College has more Nobel Laureates than Oxf*rd.

Trinity has taken 22 students from Westminster School, which apparently is some sort of record for a single college/school pairing.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/17/revealed-link-westminster-school-cambridge/ (£££)

They should be limited by law to taking no more than 7% from private schools.

Given over a third of A grade A levels come from private schools they shouldn't.

Though 70% of Cambridge students and 68% of Oxford students are now state educated

https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2020-09-03/proportion-of-state-school-pupils-at-cambridge-reaches-record-high
https://cherwell.org/2021/05/11/oxford-university-state-school-admission-intake-reaches-record-high-of-68-6/#:~:text=The data broadly suggests an,admitted between 2016 and 2020.

Not a fan of equal opportunity then @HYUFD?

MaxPB said:

Benpointer said:

rottenborough said:

another_richard said:

londonpubman said:

Given that cases are soaring do we need another lockdown, now?

I was in the pub earlier with other old people and we didn't like it if someone didn't have a mask.

Well why were you in the pub then ?

Perhaps you should be cowering at home while yearning for higher infection numbers.

And what have masks got to do with another lockdown?

And how do you drink beer with a mask on?

A straw?

What? Your mask has a hole in it?

Benpointer said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Tabman said:

FPT: Trinity College has more Nobel Laureates than Oxf*rd.

Trinity has taken 22 students from Westminster School, which apparently is some sort of record for a single college/school pairing.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/17/revealed-link-westminster-school-cambridge/ (£££)

They should be limited by law to taking no more than 7% from private schools.

Why?

Surely they should get the best, most able, students they can, irrespective of their background.

We have no idea at all about long term side effects of the vaccine.
All this for a disease that 99%+ of people survive.

This is the disconnect I don't understand - long covid is a VERY VERY real. Around 7% of kids get it (Figures from ITV) - it'll be just as high in adults, and the older & more unfit you are the more likely an adverse outcome becomes...
"Long term side effects of the vaccine" - I don't know a single person with any side effects other than feeling ropey for a few days; there simply don't look to be any. We'd have heard tales relating to adverse birth/obstretric outcomes from the USA if there were any; btw evidence is emerging Covid can knock your sperm count lower...
The shear volume of adverse outcomes from Covid is astounding, I heard on the radio about a surgeon who is incontinent now because covid has shot the nerve endings in his bladder. The tales are long and plentiful and people are NOT making it up.

Why is the bar for Covid set at survival and the bar for vaccination set so much higher. It's very very transmissible, unless you're planning on living like a hermit for the next 50 years you WILL encounter it. Why on earth would you not want to get the very best protection that vaccination offers compared to encountering Covid as a novel virus ?

TheScreamingEagles said:

OH FFS.

From the front page of The Times.

That's not much of a threat - people like football, but they're not going to be up in arms about it going somewhere else if the reason is as given, since it comes across as typical UEFA prima donna demands.

rcs1000 said:

Benpointer said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Tabman said:

FPT: Trinity College has more Nobel Laureates than Oxf*rd.

Trinity has taken 22 students from Westminster School, which apparently is some sort of record for a single college/school pairing.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/17/revealed-link-westminster-school-cambridge/ (£££)

They should be limited by law to taking no more than 7% from private schools.

Why?

Surely they should get the best, most able, students they can, irrespective of their background.

No, they should take the students with the best potential.

TheScreamingEagles said:

OH FFS.

From the front page of The Times.

The government is going to let UEFA let in thousands of people into the UK for the Euros without having to quarantine.

Let's be honest the atmosphere in a full Puskas arena in Hungary will be miles better than Wembley with 30,000 or whatever.

kle4 said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

OH FFS.

From the front page of The Times.

That's not much of a threat - people like football, but they're not going to be up in arms about it going somewhere else if the reason is as given, since it comes across as typical UEFA prima donna demands.

Tell 'em UK will waive the COVID test but NOT the Wasserman.

Foxy said:

rcs1000 said:

Benpointer said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

Tabman said:

FPT: Trinity College has more Nobel Laureates than Oxf*rd.

Trinity has taken 22 students from Westminster School, which apparently is some sort of record for a single college/school pairing.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/17/revealed-link-westminster-school-cambridge/ (£££)

They should be limited by law to taking no more than 7% from private schools.

Why?

Surely they should get the best, most able, students they can, irrespective of their background.

No, they should take the students with the best potential.

And no more than 7% from private schools achieves that somehow?

I'm hardly enamoured of private schools and private school dominance, I just don't know how one measures 'the best potential'.

The Mail’s splash about opening up on 5 July seems badly timed given the week on week positive tests rate ticked up today for the first time in a week.

It’s possible that ministers have spotted the regional trends that show positive tests peaking before tailing off, but I doubt it.

Probably very badly timed guff by the Mail. Ignore.

Pulpstar said:

We have no idea at all about long term side effects of the vaccine.
All this for a disease that 99%+ of people survive.

This is the disconnect I don't understand - long covid is a VERY VERY real. Around 7% of kids get it (Figures from ITV) - it'll be just as high in adults, and the older & more unfit you are the more likely an adverse outcome becomes...
"Long term side effects of the vaccine" - I don't know a single person with any side effects other than feeling ropey for a few days; there simply don't look to be any. We'd have heard tales relating to adverse birth/obstretric outcomes from the USA if there were any; btw evidence is emerging Covid can knock your sperm count lower...
The shear volume of adverse outcomes from Covid is astounding, I heard on the radio about a surgeon who is incontinent now because covid has shot the nerve endings in his bladder. The tales are long and plentiful and people are NOT making it up.

Why is the bar for Covid set at survival and the bar for vaccination set so much higher. It's very very transmissible, unless you're planning on living like a hermit for the next 50 years you WILL encounter it. Why on earth would you not want to get the very best protection that vaccination offers compared to encountering Covid as a novel virus ?

Indeed. COVID is really real. I am glad you appreciated the risk. There appear to be lots of people on here who don't get this.

MaxPB said:

Stuartinromford said:

kle4 said:

nico679 said:

Looks like countries that primarily used Pfizer will have the best outcomes . Clearly it’s a superior vaccine to AZ especially against the Delta variant.

It's hard for a layman to judge, but particularly given the cold storage issue has been dealt with the Pfizer vaccine really does seem to have been a mighty achievement, and it was first out of the gate to boot.

And it looks like a technology which is very easy to adapt to other problems, and produce in huge quantities using the network Europe has developed. Whereas the OAZ vaccine is the swansong of a more traditional approach. The last great steam engine, when someone else has developed an electric TGV.

And whilst the OAZ vaccine combined remarkable cleverness and humanity, that doesn't excuse the sales-production mismatch, or not doing trials in a way that ensured quick approval.

While that might be true to some degree mRNA doesn't look like an easy technology to work with. The CureVac vaccine has got just 47% efficacy which is pretty poor, even the single dose J&J vaccine gets about 67% on the same measure whole AZ is about 85% with two doses at an 8 week gap and both of those use Adenovirus vectors. Novavax with viral proteins+adjuvant gets to 97% efficacy after two doses.

To me it looks like Moderna and BioNTech/Pfizer are extremely good vaccines that have leveraged a novel technology. Novavax is second best in terms of antibody response and AZ is best in terms of its t-cell response. I think there is room in the market for all 5 of them (Pfizer, Moderna, J&J, AZ and Novavax) each targeting a different part of the market. AZ for people aged 60+ looks like a slam dunk to me as it gets a good antibody response, doesn't have any side effects in the old and it seems to give very, very good long term immunity with t-cells. I think Moderna and Pfizer make sense in the young where you want a faster acting vaccine which will reduce spread and Novavax needs to be approved so we can see what real world efficacy is like rather than modelling it from trial data and antibody prevalence but in the early data it seems to do very well against variants.

Mix and match is going to be the strongest of all I reckon. I'd leap at the chance for an Astra booster if offered, I'll also be in an eligible category for it (If they keep advice same for boosters) in a few days