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NIMBY Rishi – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited June 2021 in General
imageNIMBY Rishi – politicalbetting.com

“Fatta la legge. Trovato l’inganno.” (A law is made. A way round it is found.) Sicilian in origin, apparently. Fancy that.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    Primo....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021
    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021

    Ferdinand is another absolutely useless pundit. When they have Joe Cole, Ashely Cole and him together, with Lee Dixon on co-commentary, I feel my knowledge of the game and general IQ dropping through the floor.

    It's so amusing to see him and Scholes having to hold back about how disappointing their ex team mate who is currently manager of United is.
    We really need a revolution in pundits. All this talk of increasing diversity, how about increasing the quality. It is still the old boys (and now girls club) of you were a famous player, therefore you must know what you are talking about.

    But that a) doesn't mean they have the ability to disseminate this information and b) several years out of the game, it changes, it adapts.

    Having seen a talk by the analysts at Liverpool, the Fergie style throw your boots at players and scream and shout has been replaced by Machine Learning on big data, probability models, etc, which is then packaged up to players.
    Yeah, I mean Liverpool's analysts include someone with a degree in physics from Cambridge, someone else who has worked for NASA.

    The metrics they use now is out of this world, things like pre assists.
    A few years ago, I was staying in the same hotel as Red Bull Salzburg (another team famous for being ahead of the game on analytics). They were super friendly and I got to see a bit of what they get sent, was really interesting as a data monkey.

    Was quite amusing seeing them all there in the hotel bar the day before the game focused on their iPads having to complete all these quizzes / tests like school kids at after school club.
    Because I can only get prawn sandwich brigade tickets at Liverpool occasionally Klopp comes in and chats after the match.

    He is in awe of the analysts.

    He openly admits he was unsure on signing Salah but then the analyst guys persuaded him.

    Pointed out the way Mourinho used him at Chelsea really didn't show his talent but the way Klopp sets up his teams would, especially with Mane on the other side.

    Something like 20 gig of data was analysed for a signing of Salah's age.
    StatsBomb world leader in provision of the data....small start-up out of Bath. They are doing to analytics what Hawkeye did to ball tracking. Also with a similar type of founder, who isn't scared to be rather outspoken.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    Yeap...especially if it is made clear that this is our way to give everybody the ability to get out on the razz to clubs, to festivals, etc.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    New Zealand captain Kane Williamson will miss the second and final Test against England at Edgbaston to rest his troublesome left elbow.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    On topic I posted this last night.

    I did flag this up at the time.

    Rishi Sunak, the UK chancellor, is pushing to win a carve-out for the City of London in the G7’s push for a new global tax system to cover the world’s “largest and most profitable multinational enterprises”.

    Sunak said the weekend’s “historic agreement” by G7 finance ministers would force “the largest multinational tech giants to pay their fair share of tax in the UK”.

    But one official close to the talks said the UK was among those countries pushing “for an exemption on financial services”, reflecting Sunak’s fears that global banks with head offices in London could be affected.

    HSBC, the UK’s biggest bank by revenues, generates more than half its income from China, while Standard Chartered, another UK-headquartered lender, conducts little business in Britain, with most from Asia and Africa.

    Sunak raised the issue at the G7 talks in London, according to those briefed on the meeting, and his allies confirmed he would continue to make the case when the talks move to the G20 next month.

    “Our position is we want financial services companies to be exempt and EU countries are in the same position,” said one British official. But Joe Biden, US president, wants to broaden the scope of the tax so it does not just hit US tech giants.

    The Treasury said of the G7 agreement: “The deal makes sure that the system is fair, so that the right companies pay the right taxes in the right places.” It would now be discussed in further detail by G20 finance ministers and central bank governors.

    Under so-called “pillar one” of the deal, it was agreed that countries could tax 20 per cent of the profits of the biggest multinationals above a 10 per cent margin based on where the company made its sales, regardless of whether they had a physical presence in that country.

    The rationale for excluding the financial sector was set out in October 2020 in a “pillar one” plan that said financial services were a special case because they were generally required to have appropriately capitalised entities in each jurisdiction and therefore paid the right level of local tax.

    But Biden’s proposals in April to define the type of companies included in the pillar one plan was cross-sector, based on the 100 largest and most profitable firms, and brought the issue of financial services back in scope. 


    https://www.ft.com/content/4ed18830-f561-4291-8db5-c3c1fa86c1b8

    Anyhoo, I'm so old I remember when this government prioritised fish over banking, so I don't hold out much hope for Sunak.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    Yeap...especially if it is made clear that this is our way to give everybody the ability to get out on the razz to clubs, to festivals, etc.
    And one in ten thousand will win a hundred grand..... Cost us £50m to get those 5m used.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    1.3 in 1m for AZ blood clot on 2nd dose... and all of those have been reported in people over 50.
    For under 50, there have been 2.7m doses given and no clots. First dose has higher risk - think it's 13.6 in 1 million.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    What do we reckon - Starmer or Southgate out first ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    New Zealand captain Kane Williamson will miss the second and final Test against England at Edgbaston to rest his troublesome left elbow.

    Does he tweet with it ?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    rkrkrk said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    1.3 in 1m for AZ blood clot on 2nd dose... and all of those have been reported in people over 50.
    For under 50, there have been 2.7m doses given and no clots. First dose has higher risk - think it's 13.6 in 1 million.
    I presume now everybody is aware of this possibility, they are on this really quickly. Isn't the biggest danger not knowing and not doing anything about it promptly?
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,226
    edited June 2021
    Bending the knee should be replaced with the players standing with their arms locked around each other. We stand together we fall together. And once the covid nanny state allows it, repeated across the entire stadium, with the whole stand locked arm in arm together. What an image that would be.

    This would take away the unwelcome political and submission element of the knee gesture, be something that all non racists would get behind while quickly out the racists, and pump up the adrenaline of the fans and players before kick off, especially if accompanied by a roar at the end.

    I am not a particularly clever or creative person, it staggers me they haven’t come up with this themselves.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    Yeap...especially if it is made clear that this is our way to give everybody the ability to get out on the razz to clubs, to festivals, etc.
    Which is fine, until some photogenic teenage girl becomes this generation’s Leah Betts.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited June 2021

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Wonder how antibodies are after double Pfizer & single Astra ?

    I'd be willing to take part in that trial. The antivaxxers all bang on about people having to go for infinite jabs but I'm up for it all tbh.

    EDit : @FrancisUrquhart It's a shame you can't take AZ as your second dose to test out similar tbh.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Sandpit said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    Yeap...especially if it is made clear that this is our way to give everybody the ability to get out on the razz to clubs, to festivals, etc.
    Which is fine, until some photogenic teenage girl becomes this generation’s Leah Betts.
    Yeah, the experts have made the call on the risk assessment regarding AZ. I guess we're keeping those doses in case the older anti-vaxxers have a change of heart in the next few months.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Pulpstar said:

    What do we reckon - Starmer or Southgate out first ?

    Southgate.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881

    rkrkrk said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    1.3 in 1m for AZ blood clot on 2nd dose... and all of those have been reported in people over 50.
    For under 50, there have been 2.7m doses given and no clots. First dose has higher risk - think it's 13.6 in 1 million.
    I presume now everybody is aware of this possibility, they are on this really quickly. Isn't the biggest danger not knowing and not doing anything about it promptly?
    Yes - I was looking into this as relevant to me. Canada has some guidance online about how now they know about blood clots, less likely to be fatal in the rare event that it does occur. For almost everyone, risk of delaying 2nd dose is much higher than holding out for Pfizer was my conclusion.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,853

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    Would it make sense to use Pfizer for first doses and AZ for second? When is the mixed mode trial due to report?

    If the AZ clotting risk is mostly from the first dose them using it for the second dose only might work, otherwise we are going to be getting 3m AZ a week that we can't use...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021
    Sandpit said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    Yeap...especially if it is made clear that this is our way to give everybody the ability to get out on the razz to clubs, to festivals, etc.
    Which is fine, until some photogenic teenage girl becomes this generation’s Leah Betts.
    But looks like there is also problem with Pfizer in the young...a heart condition, Myocarditis.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Sandpit said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    Yeap...especially if it is made clear that this is our way to give everybody the ability to get out on the razz to clubs, to festivals, etc.
    Which is fine, until some photogenic teenage girl becomes this generation’s Leah Betts.
    But looks like there is also problem with Pfizer in the young...a heart condition, Myocarditis.
    Just need some advice to avoid vigorous exercise for a few days after. Though I was fine after both doses.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    Pulpstar said:

    What do we reckon - Starmer or Southgate out first ?

    Southgate.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    Yeap...especially if it is made clear that this is our way to give everybody the ability to get out on the razz to clubs, to festivals, etc.
    Except the JCVI data shows that to the young there is more risk from the AZN vaccine than there is from Covid.

    So how about just opening up festivals etc, let them happen, and let the young get vaccinated once there's sufficient Pfizer etc available?

    Why use a cure that is worse than the disease now? Which incidentally includes lockdowns too.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    One person who does come out of this farrago well:

    Dear Carlotta,

    I’m writing to you as a valued member of the Magdalen Community to set the record straight on the stories in today’s media claiming that the College has taken down a portrait of Her Majesty the Queen.

    In 2013, the MCR purchased an inexpensive print of a photograph of the Queen to put on its common room wall. Before then, there was no portrait of the Queen in the common room. A few days ago, the MCR voted after a debate to take the photograph down. The reasons for that decision are a matter for the MCR, but I understand from the MCR President that it reflected a desire that the room should be a neutral place for all members, regardless of demographic, background or views. The photograph will be safely stored with other items belonging to the MCR, in case the MCR wishes to put it up again at a future date.

    The MCR is an organisation of graduate students at Magdalen. It does not represent or speak for the College. It has the right to make its own decisions about the decoration of its common room, provided that they do not breach College rules.

    I have the greatest respect for the Queen, her seven decades of extraordinary service, and the steadfast way in which she has upheld British values against pressure. Those values include the right to freedom of expression and debate, including the expression of views which many people may find offensive or wrong. I strongly support the MCR’s exercise of that right, and their right to take democratic decisions about their own affairs, including the decoration of their own space in College. It has never been more important to support free speech in Universities. I very much hope that in continuing to do so we will have your support.

    Best wishes,

    Dinah Rose QC
    President
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    Yeap...especially if it is made clear that this is our way to give everybody the ability to get out on the razz to clubs, to festivals, etc.
    Except the JCVI data shows that to the young there is more risk from the AZN vaccine than there is from Covid.

    So how about just opening up festivals etc, let them happen, and let the young get vaccinated once there's sufficient Pfizer etc available?

    Why use a cure that is worse than the disease now? Which incidentally includes lockdowns too.
    But it isn't really about individual risk, its about community spread. Which is what we are seeing at the moment, the young are the vector that are causing the spread.

    We have another 2.5 million people's worth of supply just sitting doing nothing.

    I would say if you want one of these, you can have it today. But know there is a tiny risk. Its totally up to you.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    Yeap...especially if it is made clear that this is our way to give everybody the ability to get out on the razz to clubs, to festivals, etc.
    And one in ten thousand will win a hundred grand..... Cost us £50m to get those 5m used.
    But why use them if there's more risk from using them than there is from Covid?

    Some people need to just get over Covid now. Covid isn't a problem anymore, lets get back to normal. Besides Pfizer is already available to anyone 25+ so why use something worse than that?

    In a few weeks time anyone 18+ will be able to get Pfizer.

    We need to just announce the end to all legal restrictions next Monday and start to forget about Covid. Not live our lives around Covid, whether that be lockdowns, or using a vaccine the JCVI considers worse than the risk of Covid.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    moonshine said:

    Bending the knee should be replaced with the players standing with their arms locked around each other. We stand together we fall together. And once the covid nanny state allows it, repeated across the entire stadium, with the whole stand locked arm in arm together. What an image that would be.

    This would take away the unwelcome political and submission element of the knee gesture, be something that all non racists would get behind while quickly out the racists, and pump up the adrenaline of the fans and players before kick off, especially if accompanied by a roar at the end.

    I am not a particularly clever or creative person, it staggers me they haven’t come up with this themselves.

    It doesn't matter what gesture is chosen, the thick racists will object to it.
  • ChelyabinskChelyabinsk Posts: 488
    edited June 2021
    moonshine said:

    Bending the knee should be replaced with the players standing with their arms locked around each other. We stand together we fall together. And once the covid nanny state allows it, repeated across the entire stadium, with the whole stand locked arm in arm together. What an image that would be.

    This would take away the unwelcome political and submission element of the knee gesture, be something that all non racists would get behind while quickly out the racists, and pump up the adrenaline of the fans and players before kick off, especially if accompanied by a roar at the end.

    I am not a particularly clever or creative person, it staggers me they haven’t come up with this themselves.

    It has, indeed, been done already:

    Millwall fans applauded as their team and QPR players came together to hold an anti-racism banner before Tuesday's Championship match at The Den, days after booing them for taking a knee...Millwall defender Mahlon Romeo, who said Saturday's booing had "personally disrespected" and "offended" him, led the team out in front of captain Alex Pearce. After the match Romeo was applauded off the pitch as he held his shirt aloft. Millwall's regular shirt sponsor had been replaced with the logo of anti-discrimination body Kick It Out.

    It doesn't matter what gesture is chosen, the thick racists will object to it.

    Evidently not.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    Good afternoon.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
  • RH1992RH1992 Posts: 788
    edited June 2021

    Sandpit said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    Yeap...especially if it is made clear that this is our way to give everybody the ability to get out on the razz to clubs, to festivals, etc.
    Which is fine, until some photogenic teenage girl becomes this generation’s Leah Betts.
    But looks like there is also problem with Pfizer in the young...a heart condition, Myocarditis.
    Having just got back from my first Moderna jab I would still have taken Pfizer if I knew that. I'd even have taken AZ. To be honest I was expecting Pfizer so it was a surprise to be offered Moderna today!
  • ChelyabinskChelyabinsk Posts: 488
    edited June 2021
    Duplicate
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    RH1992 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    Yeap...especially if it is made clear that this is our way to give everybody the ability to get out on the razz to clubs, to festivals, etc.
    Which is fine, until some photogenic teenage girl becomes this generation’s Leah Betts.
    But looks like there is also problem with Pfizer in the young...a heart condition, Myocarditis.
    Having just got back from my first Moderna jab I would still have got Pfizer if I knew that. To be honest I was expecting Pfizer so it was a surprise to be offered Moderna today!
    Out of interest, how long until your 2nd jab?
  • RH1992RH1992 Posts: 788
    edited June 2021

    RH1992 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    Yeap...especially if it is made clear that this is our way to give everybody the ability to get out on the razz to clubs, to festivals, etc.
    Which is fine, until some photogenic teenage girl becomes this generation’s Leah Betts.
    But looks like there is also problem with Pfizer in the young...a heart condition, Myocarditis.
    Having just got back from my first Moderna jab I would still have got Pfizer if I knew that. To be honest I was expecting Pfizer so it was a surprise to be offered Moderna today!
    Out of interest, how long until your 2nd jab?
    August 26th, booked it at 1am yesterday right after the system started working for under 30s and that was the earliest available date so 10 weeks I think.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    Yeap...especially if it is made clear that this is our way to give everybody the ability to get out on the razz to clubs, to festivals, etc.
    Except the JCVI data shows that to the young there is more risk from the AZN vaccine than there is from Covid.

    So how about just opening up festivals etc, let them happen, and let the young get vaccinated once there's sufficient Pfizer etc available?

    Why use a cure that is worse than the disease now? Which incidentally includes lockdowns too.
    But it isn't really about individual risk, its about community spread. Which is what we are seeing at the moment, the young are the vector that are causing the spread.

    We have another 2.5 million people's worth of supply just sitting doing nothing.

    I would say if you want one of these, you can have it today. But know there is a tiny risk. Its totally up to you.
    What community risk?

    The vulnerable have been double-vaccinated. The young are causing a spread but they're spreading it to each other - and they're not especially vulnerable to Covid. And if 25+ then Pfizer or Moderna is available already - at this rate in a few weeks time Pfizer and Moderna will be available to 18+ too.

    Using an inferior unrecommend medicine over a better alternative, or continuing with lockdown, for cases alone isn't necessary. Just forget about cases and move on.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535

    But looks like there is also problem with Pfizer in the young...a heart condition, Myocarditis.

    Every unvaccinated person is at risk to a degree from COVID-19, and every case is another potential chance for a mutation that makes things worse. The idea that we have the time to optimally vaccinate every person with a super safe and effective vaccine is completely nuts. Jab everyone as fast as possible.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    Yeap...especially if it is made clear that this is our way to give everybody the ability to get out on the razz to clubs, to festivals, etc.
    Except the JCVI data shows that to the young there is more risk from the AZN vaccine than there is from Covid.

    So how about just opening up festivals etc, let them happen, and let the young get vaccinated once there's sufficient Pfizer etc available?

    Why use a cure that is worse than the disease now? Which incidentally includes lockdowns too.
    But it isn't really about individual risk, its about community spread. Which is what we are seeing at the moment, the young are the vector that are causing the spread.

    We have another 2.5 million people's worth of supply just sitting doing nothing.

    I would say if you want one of these, you can have it today. But know there is a tiny risk. Its totally up to you.
    What community risk?

    The vulnerable have been double-vaccinated. The young are causing a spread but they're spreading it to each other - and they're not especially vulnerable to Covid. And if 25+ then Pfizer or Moderna is available already - at this rate in a few weeks time Pfizer and Moderna will be available to 18+ too.

    Using an inferior unrecommend medicine over a better alternative, or continuing with lockdown, for cases alone isn't necessary. Just forget about cases and move on.
    Well me....I'm still at risk. I can't get second jab until mid July, so I won't be fully covered until August.

    We could bang out another 5 million people in the next week or two, so come unlocking time, they have at least partial coverage and thus reduction in spread.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    If it has not been sorted out by then we'll have bigger worries than a court case:

    .@MarosSefcovic says the infringement proceedings against the UK over the NI Protocol cd end up in the European Court of Justice in the autumn

    https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1402608340941914114?s=20
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    450,284 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 109,068 1st doses / 252,697 2nd doses
    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 18,565 / 31,492
    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 5,033 / 21,093
    NI 4,136 / 8,200

    Not good enough.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    Yeap...especially if it is made clear that this is our way to give everybody the ability to get out on the razz to clubs, to festivals, etc.
    Except the JCVI data shows that to the young there is more risk from the AZN vaccine than there is from Covid.

    So how about just opening up festivals etc, let them happen, and let the young get vaccinated once there's sufficient Pfizer etc available?

    Why use a cure that is worse than the disease now? Which incidentally includes lockdowns too.
    But it isn't really about individual risk, its about community spread. Which is what we are seeing at the moment, the young are the vector that are causing the spread.

    We have another 2.5 million people's worth of supply just sitting doing nothing.

    I would say if you want one of these, you can have it today. But know there is a tiny risk. Its totally up to you.
    What community risk?

    The vulnerable have been double-vaccinated. The young are causing a spread but they're spreading it to each other - and they're not especially vulnerable to Covid. And if 25+ then Pfizer or Moderna is available already - at this rate in a few weeks time Pfizer and Moderna will be available to 18+ too.

    Using an inferior unrecommend medicine over a better alternative, or continuing with lockdown, for cases alone isn't necessary. Just forget about cases and move on.
    Well me....I'm still at risk. I can't get second jab until mid July, so I won't be fully covered until August.
    Which JCVI group are you in? You ought to be able to get your second jab before mid July if 1 to 9 surely?

    If you want to take precautions until you get your second jab then that should be your free choice, but its not a reason to continue with lockdown, or to go against JCVI advice.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    Yeap...especially if it is made clear that this is our way to give everybody the ability to get out on the razz to clubs, to festivals, etc.
    Except the JCVI data shows that to the young there is more risk from the AZN vaccine than there is from Covid.

    So how about just opening up festivals etc, let them happen, and let the young get vaccinated once there's sufficient Pfizer etc available?

    Why use a cure that is worse than the disease now? Which incidentally includes lockdowns too.
    But it isn't really about individual risk, its about community spread. Which is what we are seeing at the moment, the young are the vector that are causing the spread.

    We have another 2.5 million people's worth of supply just sitting doing nothing.

    I would say if you want one of these, you can have it today. But know there is a tiny risk. Its totally up to you.
    What community risk?

    The vulnerable have been double-vaccinated. The young are causing a spread but they're spreading it to each other - and they're not especially vulnerable to Covid. And if 25+ then Pfizer or Moderna is available already - at this rate in a few weeks time Pfizer and Moderna will be available to 18+ too.

    Using an inferior unrecommend medicine over a better alternative, or continuing with lockdown, for cases alone isn't necessary. Just forget about cases and move on.
    Well me....I'm still at risk. I can't get second jab until mid July, so I won't be fully covered until August.
    Which JCVI group are you in? You ought to be able to get your second jab before mid July if 1 to 9 surely?

    If you want to take precautions until you get your second jab then that should be your free choice, but its not a reason to continue with lockdown, or to go against JCVI advice.
    I did this last thread. I rebooked, I basically can't get one any sooner. And there is real limited availability, if I don't go to my "local" one (still 30 mins away), I have to go to ones that are over 2hrs away. I tried all sorts of postcodes, no joy.

    There is clearly a big squeeze on supply, given all the youngsters are getting Pfizer / Moderna. And we can see it again in today's numbers, only ~130k first doses.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    My guess is that the big optimal gap for AZN means that it might now be more efficient to wait for PFE and Moderna, than to get those doses into peoples' arms.

    That being said, in Canada and much of the EU you are now seeing mixing and matching of vaccines. So, you get AZN first, and then one of the mRNA vaccines as your second shot.

    I don't see why the UK doesn't follow the same principle. Especially given the emerging evidence is that mixing and matching produces a better immune response.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    If it has not been sorted out by then we'll have bigger worries than a court case:

    .@MarosSefcovic says the infringement proceedings against the UK over the NI Protocol cd end up in the European Court of Justice in the autumn

    https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1402608340941914114?s=20

    If they lodge proceedings then the UK should immediately retaliate by invoking Article 16 and rolling back all implementation of the Protocol that has been done to date.

    Article 16 is a perfectly legitimate part of the Protocol.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    glw said:

    But looks like there is also problem with Pfizer in the young...a heart condition, Myocarditis.

    Every unvaccinated person is at risk to a degree from COVID-19, and every case is another potential chance for a mutation that makes things worse. The idea that we have the time to optimally vaccinate every person with a super safe and effective vaccine is completely nuts. Jab everyone as fast as possible.
    If we're going down this line of reasoning, then we need compulsory vaccination.

    Of course, we can only impose that on our own country, and given that the mantra of the nutters is "no one is safe until everyone is safe", then I don't see the point in bothering.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    rkrkrk said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    1.3 in 1m for AZ blood clot on 2nd dose... and all of those have been reported in people over 50.
    For under 50, there have been 2.7m doses given and no clots. First dose has higher risk - think it's 13.6 in 1 million.
    Is that true? I thought - based on the global evidence - that the people most at risk of clots (albeit rarely fatal) were young women, who might well also be on the pill.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    Would it make sense to use Pfizer for first doses and AZ for second? When is the mixed mode trial due to report?

    If the AZ clotting risk is mostly from the first dose them using it for the second dose only might work, otherwise we are going to be getting 3m AZ a week that we can't use...
    You realise going Pfizer-AZ would still making your 2nd overall dose your first dose of Az - the Pfizer vaccine doesn't magically solve the Az issue.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881

    rkrkrk said:



    Not sure those crude figures are very interesting actually -> the more interesting thing is when you adjust for age, sex, ethnicity, vaccination status etc. as they did in their Cox regression....

    The question is

    1) Alpha (etc) vs unvaccinated
    2) Delta vs unvaccinated
    3) Alpha (etc) vs vaccinated
    4) Delta vs vaccinated

    I *think*, having briefly read the report, what the conclusion is talking about is 3 vs 4

    That can still mean that 3 & 4 are vastly better than 1 & 2

    FPT -> sorry but don't understand what you mean.
    The report is comparing delta variant with alpha variant, adjusted for age, vaccination status etc. and says delta variant has 2.6x greater chance of hospitalization vs. alpha variant.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,089

    moonshine said:

    Bending the knee should be replaced with the players standing with their arms locked around each other. We stand together we fall together. And once the covid nanny state allows it, repeated across the entire stadium, with the whole stand locked arm in arm together. What an image that would be.

    This would take away the unwelcome political and submission element of the knee gesture, be something that all non racists would get behind while quickly out the racists, and pump up the adrenaline of the fans and players before kick off, especially if accompanied by a roar at the end.

    I am not a particularly clever or creative person, it staggers me they haven’t come up with this themselves.

    It doesn't matter what gesture is chosen, the thick racists will object to it.
    Not just that.

    "Of course you can protest, but only in a way we don't object to..."

    That's part of what the protests are about.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited June 2021
    tlg86 said:

    glw said:

    But looks like there is also problem with Pfizer in the young...a heart condition, Myocarditis.

    Every unvaccinated person is at risk to a degree from COVID-19, and every case is another potential chance for a mutation that makes things worse. The idea that we have the time to optimally vaccinate every person with a super safe and effective vaccine is completely nuts. Jab everyone as fast as possible.
    If we're going down this line of reasoning, then we need compulsory vaccination.

    Of course, we can only impose that on our own country, and given that the mantra of the nutters is "no one is safe until everyone is safe", then I don't see the point in bothering.
    Surely vaxport checks on incoming passengers is the first place they should be implemented.
    The EU has a scheme up and running. We do too actually, just not publicised.

    https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/How-do-Americans-prove-Covid-vaccination-status-to-enter-France I showed some work colleagues how to download the app the other day as they need to go to France on business.
    We should copy France on this.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    edited June 2021

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    Would it make sense to use Pfizer for first doses and AZ for second? When is the mixed mode trial due to report?

    If the AZ clotting risk is mostly from the first dose them using it for the second dose only might work, otherwise we are going to be getting 3m AZ a week that we can't use...
    The evidence (albeit very preliminary) is that mixing boosts immune response: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01359-3

    This is for AZN first, with Pfizer second. Which is probably exactly what the UK should be doing right now.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    My guess is that the big optimal gap for AZN means that it might now be more efficient to wait for PFE and Moderna, than to get those doses into peoples' arms.

    That being said, in Canada and much of the EU you are now seeing mixing and matching of vaccines. So, you get AZN first, and then one of the mRNA vaccines as your second shot.

    I don't see why the UK doesn't follow the same principle. Especially given the emerging evidence is that mixing and matching produces a better immune response.
    If PHE is to be believed, one dose of Pfizer / Moderna is still only 30% effective against Indian variant, the same as AZN, until you get your second dose.

    Now I am a bit sceptical about that, but if that's the evidence we have to go on, the race should be to get as many people with 2 doses of whatever we can give them asap.

    Having 5 millions doses sitting doing nothing seems suboptimal, when it is clear there is a big squeeze on the supply of Pfizer / Moderna compared to the demand.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    1.3 in 1m for AZ blood clot on 2nd dose... and all of those have been reported in people over 50.
    For under 50, there have been 2.7m doses given and no clots. First dose has higher risk - think it's 13.6 in 1 million.
    Is that true? I thought - based on the global evidence - that the people most at risk of clots (albeit rarely fatal) were young women, who might well also be on the pill.
    I'm going by this UK data: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

    "The overall incidence after first or unknown doses was 13.6 per million doses. Taking into account the different numbers of patients vaccinated with COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca in different age groups, the data shows that there is a higher reported incidence rate in the younger adult age groups following the first dose compared to the older groups. (18.0 per million doses in those aged 18-49 years compared to 10.2 per million doses in those aged 50 years and over). The MHRA advises that this evolving evidence should be taken into account when considering the use of the vaccine. There is now some evidence that the reported incidence rate is higher in females compared to men although this is not seen across all age groups and the difference remains small.

    The overall incidence after second doses was 1.3 per million doses. All reported cases following a second dose are in patients aged 50 years and over, for whom the reported incidence rate is 1.4 per million second doses. Currently, no cases have been reported following a second dose in patients aged 18-49 years with an estimated 2.7 million in this age group having received both doses. This should not be directly compared to the incidence rate reported after the first dose as the time for follow-up and identification of cases after second doses is more limited. However, the data are reassuring at this stage and suggest that the reported incidence rate following a second dose is lower than that seen following a first dose."
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,853
    maaarsh said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    Would it make sense to use Pfizer for first doses and AZ for second? When is the mixed mode trial due to report?

    If the AZ clotting risk is mostly from the first dose them using it for the second dose only might work, otherwise we are going to be getting 3m AZ a week that we can't use...
    You realise going Pfizer-AZ would still making your 2nd overall dose your first dose of Az - the Pfizer vaccine doesn't magically solve the Az issue.
    That depends on the mechanism for the clots, surely?

    If you've already seen the spike protein, would any reaction that causes clotting not be less likely?

    Or is the clotting mechanism entirely due to the carrier virus?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    "An elite American graduate is behind the removal of the Queen’s portrait from an Oxford college common room over the royal family’s historic links to colonial rule.

    Matthew Katzman, president of Magdalen College’s 200-strong “middle common room” (MCR) of graduate students, is studying for a doctorate in computer science while also lecturing at Jesus College.

    He is from Bethesda, Maryland, and attended the exclusive Sidwell Francis School, whose alumni include the children of several presidents. His father, Scott, is a prominent Washington lawyer." (£)

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/magdalen-college-oxford-to-remove-queens-portrait-over-colonial-links-qcd3zlf2m
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    rcs1000 said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    My guess is that the big optimal gap for AZN means that it might now be more efficient to wait for PFE and Moderna, than to get those doses into peoples' arms.

    That being said, in Canada and much of the EU you are now seeing mixing and matching of vaccines. So, you get AZN first, and then one of the mRNA vaccines as your second shot.

    I don't see why the UK doesn't follow the same principle. Especially given the emerging evidence is that mixing and matching produces a better immune response.
    If PHE is to be believed, one dose of Pfizer / Moderna is still only 30% effective against Indian variant, the same as AZN, until you get your second dose.

    Now I am a bit sceptical about that, but if that's the evidence we have to go on, the race should be to get as many people with 2 doses of whatever we can give them asap.
    Where are you getting that from? And is that for 3+ weeks after vaccination or is that from date of vaccination?

    Figures I'd seen were 60% from one jab.

    The only reason to get 2 doses ASAP of whatever is if the risk of Covid is more than the risk of the jabs, but the JCVI doesn't say that.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774

    rcs1000 said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    My guess is that the big optimal gap for AZN means that it might now be more efficient to wait for PFE and Moderna, than to get those doses into peoples' arms.

    That being said, in Canada and much of the EU you are now seeing mixing and matching of vaccines. So, you get AZN first, and then one of the mRNA vaccines as your second shot.

    I don't see why the UK doesn't follow the same principle. Especially given the emerging evidence is that mixing and matching produces a better immune response.
    If PHE is to be believed, one dose of Pfizer / Moderna is still only 30% effective against Indian variant, the same as AZN, until you get your second dose.

    Now I am a bit sceptical about that, but if that's the evidence we have to go on, the race should be to get as many people with 2 doses of whatever we can give them asap.
    The PHE infection data included a lot of people who'd only got their first jab in the previous two weeks (around half of the people with only one jab IIRC), so quite a few of those people may have already caught Delta before getting vaccinated given the typical gap between infection and diagnosis.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2021

    rcs1000 said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    My guess is that the big optimal gap for AZN means that it might now be more efficient to wait for PFE and Moderna, than to get those doses into peoples' arms.

    That being said, in Canada and much of the EU you are now seeing mixing and matching of vaccines. So, you get AZN first, and then one of the mRNA vaccines as your second shot.

    I don't see why the UK doesn't follow the same principle. Especially given the emerging evidence is that mixing and matching produces a better immune response.
    If PHE is to be believed, one dose of Pfizer / Moderna is still only 30% effective against Indian variant, the same as AZN, until you get your second dose.

    Now I am a bit sceptical about that, but if that's the evidence we have to go on, the race should be to get as many people with 2 doses of whatever we can give them asap.
    Where are you getting that from? And is that for 3+ weeks after vaccination or is that from date of vaccination?

    Figures I'd seen were 60% from one jab.

    The only reason to get 2 doses ASAP of whatever is if the risk of Covid is more than the risk of the jabs, but the JCVI doesn't say that.
    Pfizer and AstraZeneca jabs work against Indian variant - study

    However, both vaccines were only 33% effective against the Indian variant three weeks after the first dose.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57214596

    Now obviously I think it will be doing a much better job of preventing serious illness and hospitalization, but if the chances are still high of getting it, you can also most likely spread it and so onward transmission.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004
    I wonder if consideration is being given to using the surplus AZ vaccines to give a booster to those most at risk who have already had a double-shot of Pfizer? If they are not going to do this or use them for the Under 30s then they should use them or give them to other countries that will.

    I think it would be beneficial to give the Under 30s an AZ option when they book but let them know very clearly the miniscule risks.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    maaarsh said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    Would it make sense to use Pfizer for first doses and AZ for second? When is the mixed mode trial due to report?

    If the AZ clotting risk is mostly from the first dose them using it for the second dose only might work, otherwise we are going to be getting 3m AZ a week that we can't use...
    You realise going Pfizer-AZ would still making your 2nd overall dose your first dose of Az - the Pfizer vaccine doesn't magically solve the Az issue.
    That depends on the mechanism for the clots, surely?

    If you've already seen the spike protein, would any reaction that causes clotting not be less likely?

    Or is the clotting mechanism entirely due to the carrier virus?
    If it was a reaction to the protein shouldn't all vaccines be causing this reaction?

    80% of UK adults have Covid antibodies, its farcical to continue obsessing with Covid. Just lift lockdown and move on already - and no need to use an inferior vaccine that the JCVI doesn't recommend if we have a better one available.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    I think we've got a few things going on in the vax program

    i) Anyone over 40 can instantly get AZ now. The 8 week delay is being kept for efficacy not supply so we're basically demand limited on 1st dose 40+ vaccinations and time limited on 2nd doses.
    ii) Pfizer/Moderna is supply limited.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    glw said:

    But looks like there is also problem with Pfizer in the young...a heart condition, Myocarditis.

    Every unvaccinated person is at risk to a degree from COVID-19, and every case is another potential chance for a mutation that makes things worse. The idea that we have the time to optimally vaccinate every person with a super safe and effective vaccine is completely nuts. Jab everyone as fast as possible.
    If we're going down this line of reasoning, then we need compulsory vaccination.

    Of course, we can only impose that on our own country, and given that the mantra of the nutters is "no one is safe until everyone is safe", then I don't see the point in bothering.
    Surely vaxport checks on incoming passengers is the first place they should be implemented.
    The EU has a scheme up and running. We do too actually, just not publicised.

    https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/How-do-Americans-prove-Covid-vaccination-status-to-enter-France I showed some work colleagues how to download the app the other day as they need to go to France on business.
    We should copy France on this.
    We should.

    Despite being utterly insufferable in many ways, the French have got a number of things spot on.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    edited June 2021

    moonshine said:

    Bending the knee should be replaced with the players standing with their arms locked around each other. We stand together we fall together. And once the covid nanny state allows it, repeated across the entire stadium, with the whole stand locked arm in arm together. What an image that would be.

    This would take away the unwelcome political and submission element of the knee gesture, be something that all non racists would get behind while quickly out the racists, and pump up the adrenaline of the fans and players before kick off, especially if accompanied by a roar at the end.

    I am not a particularly clever or creative person, it staggers me they haven’t come up with this themselves.

    It doesn't matter what gesture is chosen, the thick racists will object to it.
    The problem is the fact that it's a gesture, which is a substitute for doing anything worthwhile. So yes, any other gesture would be just as bad.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    AlistairM said:

    I wonder if consideration is being given to using the surplus AZ vaccines to give a booster to those most at risk who have already had a double-shot of Pfizer? If they are not going to do this or use them for the Under 30s then they should use them or give them to other countries that will.

    I think it would be beneficial to give the Under 30s an AZ option when they book but let them know very clearly the miniscule risks.

    Yes, whilst I wouldn't say no to a third jab I'm in JCVI 10 and this would be a very sensible use of resource.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618

    450,284 vaccinations in 🇬🇧 yesterday

    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 109,068 1st doses / 252,697 2nd doses
    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 18,565 / 31,492
    🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 5,033 / 21,093
    NI 4,136 / 8,200

    Not good enough.

    Another pisspoor day.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,288
    Oh dear Harry is threatening legal action over defamatory comments.. Toys out of pram....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    My guess is that the big optimal gap for AZN means that it might now be more efficient to wait for PFE and Moderna, than to get those doses into peoples' arms.

    That being said, in Canada and much of the EU you are now seeing mixing and matching of vaccines. So, you get AZN first, and then one of the mRNA vaccines as your second shot.

    I don't see why the UK doesn't follow the same principle. Especially given the emerging evidence is that mixing and matching produces a better immune response.
    If PHE is to be believed, one dose of Pfizer / Moderna is still only 30% effective against Indian variant, the same as AZN, until you get your second dose.

    Now I am a bit sceptical about that, but if that's the evidence we have to go on, the race should be to get as many people with 2 doses of whatever we can give them asap.
    The PHE infection data included a lot of people who'd only got their first jab in the previous two weeks (around half of the people with only one jab IIRC), so quite a few of those people may have already caught Delta before getting vaccinated given the typical gap between infection and diagnosis.
    Sure, but the conventional wisdom is that there is a significant drop off with only one dose, but two doses is basically the same. Now as I said, I don't think its as low as 30%, but if we have the capacity to get two doses into more people, we should be doing that.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    rcs1000 said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    My guess is that the big optimal gap for AZN means that it might now be more efficient to wait for PFE and Moderna, than to get those doses into peoples' arms.

    That being said, in Canada and much of the EU you are now seeing mixing and matching of vaccines. So, you get AZN first, and then one of the mRNA vaccines as your second shot.

    I don't see why the UK doesn't follow the same principle. Especially given the emerging evidence is that mixing and matching produces a better immune response.
    If PHE is to be believed, one dose of Pfizer / Moderna is still only 30% effective against Indian variant, the same as AZN, until you get your second dose.

    Now I am a bit sceptical about that, but if that's the evidence we have to go on, the race should be to get as many people with 2 doses of whatever we can give them asap.
    Where are you getting that from? And is that for 3+ weeks after vaccination or is that from date of vaccination?

    Figures I'd seen were 60% from one jab.

    The only reason to get 2 doses ASAP of whatever is if the risk of Covid is more than the risk of the jabs, but the JCVI doesn't say that.
    30% against infection, 60% against severe symptoms that result in hospitalisation. The latter figure is key.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,853

    maaarsh said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    Would it make sense to use Pfizer for first doses and AZ for second? When is the mixed mode trial due to report?

    If the AZ clotting risk is mostly from the first dose them using it for the second dose only might work, otherwise we are going to be getting 3m AZ a week that we can't use...
    You realise going Pfizer-AZ would still making your 2nd overall dose your first dose of Az - the Pfizer vaccine doesn't magically solve the Az issue.
    That depends on the mechanism for the clots, surely?

    If you've already seen the spike protein, would any reaction that causes clotting not be less likely?

    Or is the clotting mechanism entirely due to the carrier virus?
    If it was a reaction to the protein shouldn't all vaccines be causing this reaction?

    80% of UK adults have Covid antibodies, its farcical to continue obsessing with Covid. Just lift lockdown and move on already - and no need to use an inferior vaccine that the JCVI doesn't recommend if we have a better one available.
    Given we know the virus itself causes clotting, I would assume that the virus protein was involved but that the cause of the clotting was some interaction of it with the delivery mechanism.

    I agree on the unlocking, but using what vaccine supplies we do have optimally is still worthwhile.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    All this talk of experimenting and needing to get as many doses etc. etc.

    Isn't the reality that because COVID is so rare and so unlikely to kill people at the moment, there's no scientific basis for taking risks. Unlike back in January...

    Of course, that also means we really ought to end lockdown.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    My guess is that the big optimal gap for AZN means that it might now be more efficient to wait for PFE and Moderna, than to get those doses into peoples' arms.

    That being said, in Canada and much of the EU you are now seeing mixing and matching of vaccines. So, you get AZN first, and then one of the mRNA vaccines as your second shot.

    I don't see why the UK doesn't follow the same principle. Especially given the emerging evidence is that mixing and matching produces a better immune response.
    If PHE is to be believed, one dose of Pfizer / Moderna is still only 30% effective against Indian variant, the same as AZN, until you get your second dose.

    Now I am a bit sceptical about that, but if that's the evidence we have to go on, the race should be to get as many people with 2 doses of whatever we can give them asap.
    Where are you getting that from? And is that for 3+ weeks after vaccination or is that from date of vaccination?

    Figures I'd seen were 60% from one jab.

    The only reason to get 2 doses ASAP of whatever is if the risk of Covid is more than the risk of the jabs, but the JCVI doesn't say that.
    30% against infection, 60% against severe symptoms that result in hospitalisation. The latter figure is key.
    Yes that's what matters.

    Who cares if you have an asymptomatic infection? Especially when 80% of the country have antibodies already.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 3,703

    Oh dear Harry is threatening legal action over defamatory comments.. Toys out of pram....

    Or alternatively, the press should just stop making shit up ...
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    edited June 2021
    Have summer holidays started early?
    All the discussion on here is culture war, silly season stuff.

    Don’t care about Lilibet, JCRs, knee-taking etc.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774

    rcs1000 said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    My guess is that the big optimal gap for AZN means that it might now be more efficient to wait for PFE and Moderna, than to get those doses into peoples' arms.

    That being said, in Canada and much of the EU you are now seeing mixing and matching of vaccines. So, you get AZN first, and then one of the mRNA vaccines as your second shot.

    I don't see why the UK doesn't follow the same principle. Especially given the emerging evidence is that mixing and matching produces a better immune response.
    If PHE is to be believed, one dose of Pfizer / Moderna is still only 30% effective against Indian variant, the same as AZN, until you get your second dose.

    Now I am a bit sceptical about that, but if that's the evidence we have to go on, the race should be to get as many people with 2 doses of whatever we can give them asap.
    Where are you getting that from? And is that for 3+ weeks after vaccination or is that from date of vaccination?

    Figures I'd seen were 60% from one jab.

    The only reason to get 2 doses ASAP of whatever is if the risk of Covid is more than the risk of the jabs, but the JCVI doesn't say that.
    Pfizer and AstraZeneca jabs work against Indian variant - study

    However, both vaccines were only 33% effective against the Indian variant three weeks after the first dose.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57214596

    Now obviously I think it will be doing a much better job of preventing serious illness and hospitalization, but if the chances are still high of getting it, you can also most likely spread it and so onward transmission.
    This is highly misleading.

    The data broke down Covid cases for single dosed people between those who had a Covid case who'd got their vaccination in the previous three weeks, and those who'd got it more than three weeks ago.

    Including anyone who only got their Covid vaccine in the previous two weeks is incredibly misleading. Because it usually takes 10 days to two weeks before the infection reaches a level where it can be detected all. (Which has been the problem with Covid all along - this ticking timebomb of people who are going to be infectious but are not yet.)

    In other words, that 33% is probably 50% people who'd caught Covid before getting the vaccine.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    tlg86 said:

    All this talk of experimenting and needing to get as many doses etc. etc.

    Isn't the reality that because COVID is so rare and so unlikely to kill people at the moment, there's no scientific basis for taking risks. Unlike back in January...

    Of course, that also means we really ought to end lockdown.

    Just want to see the country in as good a position as possible with respect to immunity. Do we have mix and match trials ongoing at the moment ? Because if we don't, we should.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Pulpstar said:

    I think we've got a few things going on in the vax program

    i) Anyone over 40 can instantly get AZ now. The 8 week delay is being kept for efficacy not supply so we're basically demand limited on 1st dose 40+ vaccinations and time limited on 2nd doses.
    ii) Pfizer/Moderna is supply limited.

    The latest word is that the 60m Pfizer deal was signed too late to kick in before the start of July. Not ordering more Moderna and Pfizer has been the one weakness in the vaccine programme IMO. When Pfizer were taking second order in March we should have placed an order for 80m back then and upped our Moderna order to 50m when they were taking additional orders in May.

    Honestly as soon as it was discovered that AZ needed 8-12 weeks in between doses to get to maximum efficacy plans to get other vaccines should have been made.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    rkrkrk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    1.3 in 1m for AZ blood clot on 2nd dose... and all of those have been reported in people over 50.
    For under 50, there have been 2.7m doses given and no clots. First dose has higher risk - think it's 13.6 in 1 million.
    Is that true? I thought - based on the global evidence - that the people most at risk of clots (albeit rarely fatal) were young women, who might well also be on the pill.
    I'm going by this UK data: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

    "The overall incidence after first or unknown doses was 13.6 per million doses. Taking into account the different numbers of patients vaccinated with COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca in different age groups, the data shows that there is a higher reported incidence rate in the younger adult age groups following the first dose compared to the older groups. (18.0 per million doses in those aged 18-49 years compared to 10.2 per million doses in those aged 50 years and over). The MHRA advises that this evolving evidence should be taken into account when considering the use of the vaccine. There is now some evidence that the reported incidence rate is higher in females compared to men although this is not seen across all age groups and the difference remains small.

    The overall incidence after second doses was 1.3 per million doses. All reported cases following a second dose are in patients aged 50 years and over, for whom the reported incidence rate is 1.4 per million second doses. Currently, no cases have been reported following a second dose in patients aged 18-49 years with an estimated 2.7 million in this age group having received both doses. This should not be directly compared to the incidence rate reported after the first dose as the time for follow-up and identification of cases after second doses is more limited. However, the data are reassuring at this stage and suggest that the reported incidence rate following a second dose is lower than that seen following a first dose."
    From that piece: the data shows that there is a higher reported incidence rate in the younger adult age groups following the first dose compared to the older groups.

    So, using second dose is a bit misleading.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,288

    Oh dear Harry is threatening legal action over defamatory comments.. Toys out of pram....

    Or alternatively, the press should just stop making shit up ...
    Harry is a war with ( his)Royal Family. The press is caught in the crossfire. I don't think they are lying. They are reporting a 'Palace source"
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    Incidentally, on the livestream for Lancashire's first T20 game the players all lined up to 'stand up for inclusion' and got a round of applause.

    Now it may be that cricket attracts a better clientele, or it may be Philip is wrong on this one and an alternative gesture would solve the impasse.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,288
    edited June 2021

    Have summer holidays started early?
    All the discussion on here is culture war, silly season stuff.

    Don’t care about Lilibet, JCRs, knee-taking etc.


    Wokeshittery is bad news in whatever form it takes.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    All this talk of experimenting and needing to get as many doses etc. etc.

    Isn't the reality that because COVID is so rare and so unlikely to kill people at the moment, there's no scientific basis for taking risks. Unlike back in January...

    Of course, that also means we really ought to end lockdown.

    Just want to see the country in as good a position as possible with respect to immunity. Do we have mix and match trials ongoing at the moment ? Because if we don't, we should.
    We do.

    I posted a Nature article, and the preliminary results from the trial in Spain is that AZN first plus Pfizer second stimulates a stronger immune response than either using AZN or Pfizer twice.

    Canada, France, Spain, Germany and a bunch of other countries have now approved AZN followed by Pfizer, and we should probably do the same.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    1.3 in 1m for AZ blood clot on 2nd dose... and all of those have been reported in people over 50.
    For under 50, there have been 2.7m doses given and no clots. First dose has higher risk - think it's 13.6 in 1 million.
    Is that true? I thought - based on the global evidence - that the people most at risk of clots (albeit rarely fatal) were young women, who might well also be on the pill.
    I'm going by this UK data: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

    "The overall incidence after first or unknown doses was 13.6 per million doses. Taking into account the different numbers of patients vaccinated with COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca in different age groups, the data shows that there is a higher reported incidence rate in the younger adult age groups following the first dose compared to the older groups. (18.0 per million doses in those aged 18-49 years compared to 10.2 per million doses in those aged 50 years and over). The MHRA advises that this evolving evidence should be taken into account when considering the use of the vaccine. There is now some evidence that the reported incidence rate is higher in females compared to men although this is not seen across all age groups and the difference remains small.

    The overall incidence after second doses was 1.3 per million doses. All reported cases following a second dose are in patients aged 50 years and over, for whom the reported incidence rate is 1.4 per million second doses. Currently, no cases have been reported following a second dose in patients aged 18-49 years with an estimated 2.7 million in this age group having received both doses. This should not be directly compared to the incidence rate reported after the first dose as the time for follow-up and identification of cases after second doses is more limited. However, the data are reassuring at this stage and suggest that the reported incidence rate following a second dose is lower than that seen following a first dose."
    From that piece: the data shows that there is a higher reported incidence rate in the younger adult age groups following the first dose compared to the older groups.

    So, using second dose is a bit misleading.
    How is it misleading?

    If you've had your first dose [like me!] and you are wondering about 2nd dose... it's relevant to look at 2nd dose! And reassuring to know risk seems to be less than 1st dose and no adverse instances reported in 2.7m doses.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,004
    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think we've got a few things going on in the vax program

    i) Anyone over 40 can instantly get AZ now. The 8 week delay is being kept for efficacy not supply so we're basically demand limited on 1st dose 40+ vaccinations and time limited on 2nd doses.
    ii) Pfizer/Moderna is supply limited.

    The latest word is that the 60m Pfizer deal was signed too late to kick in before the start of July. Not ordering more Moderna and Pfizer has been the one weakness in the vaccine programme IMO. When Pfizer were taking second order in March we should have placed an order for 80m back then and upped our Moderna order to 50m when they were taking additional orders in May.

    Honestly as soon as it was discovered that AZ needed 8-12 weeks in between doses to get to maximum efficacy plans to get other vaccines should have been made.
    Decisions obviously made after Kate Bingham left. I know her contract ended in January but given the vitriol she was given late last year then it is hardly a surprise that she wouldn't wanted to have extended it.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 3,853
    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think we've got a few things going on in the vax program

    i) Anyone over 40 can instantly get AZ now. The 8 week delay is being kept for efficacy not supply so we're basically demand limited on 1st dose 40+ vaccinations and time limited on 2nd doses.
    ii) Pfizer/Moderna is supply limited.

    The latest word is that the 60m Pfizer deal was signed too late to kick in before the start of July. Not ordering more Moderna and Pfizer has been the one weakness in the vaccine programme IMO. When Pfizer were taking second order in March we should have placed an order for 80m back then and upped our Moderna order to 50m when they were taking additional orders in May.

    Honestly as soon as it was discovered that AZ needed 8-12 weeks in between doses to get to maximum efficacy plans to get other vaccines should have been made.
    Were we not expecting to be drowning in Novavax by now?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    All this talk of experimenting and needing to get as many doses etc. etc.

    Isn't the reality that because COVID is so rare and so unlikely to kill people at the moment, there's no scientific basis for taking risks. Unlike back in January...

    Of course, that also means we really ought to end lockdown.

    Just want to see the country in as good a position as possible with respect to immunity. Do we have mix and match trials ongoing at the moment ? Because if we don't, we should.
    We do.

    I posted a Nature article, and the preliminary results from the trial in Spain is that AZN first plus Pfizer second stimulates a stronger immune response than either using AZN or Pfizer twice.

    Canada, France, Spain, Germany and a bunch of other countries have now approved AZN followed by Pfizer, and we should probably do the same.
    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    All this talk of experimenting and needing to get as many doses etc. etc.

    Isn't the reality that because COVID is so rare and so unlikely to kill people at the moment, there's no scientific basis for taking risks. Unlike back in January...

    Of course, that also means we really ought to end lockdown.

    Just want to see the country in as good a position as possible with respect to immunity. Do we have mix and match trials ongoing at the moment ? Because if we don't, we should.
    We do.

    I posted a Nature article, and the preliminary results from the trial in Spain is that AZN first plus Pfizer second stimulates a stronger immune response than either using AZN or Pfizer twice.

    Canada, France, Spain, Germany and a bunch of other countries have now approved AZN followed by Pfizer, and we should probably do the same.
    But its too late for us to do that, since rollout is already done. Over 40s have already had their doses so too late to do a mix and match for them.

    The JCVI shows that the remaining age groups getting AZN is more risky than the miniscule risk from Covid. So doing a mix and match for them would be riskied than letting them take their chances until they can get Pfizer.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I think we've got a few things going on in the vax program

    i) Anyone over 40 can instantly get AZ now. The 8 week delay is being kept for efficacy not supply so we're basically demand limited on 1st dose 40+ vaccinations and time limited on 2nd doses.
    ii) Pfizer/Moderna is supply limited.

    The latest word is that the 60m Pfizer deal was signed too late to kick in before the start of July. Not ordering more Moderna and Pfizer has been the one weakness in the vaccine programme IMO. When Pfizer were taking second order in March we should have placed an order for 80m back then and upped our Moderna order to 50m when they were taking additional orders in May.

    Honestly as soon as it was discovered that AZ needed 8-12 weeks in between doses to get to maximum efficacy plans to get other vaccines should have been made.
    Were we not expecting to be drowning in Novavax by now?
    The problem with Novavax (which has long had the nickname No Vax by humorous City types) is that while they designed an excellent and efficacious vaccine, they had very limited experience in mass production. This has been compounded by the fact that they decided to build their own manufactring capacity in the US and the UK, rather than partnering with people who knew what they were doing.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,089
    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    All this talk of experimenting and needing to get as many doses etc. etc.

    Isn't the reality that because COVID is so rare and so unlikely to kill people at the moment, there's no scientific basis for taking risks. Unlike back in January...

    Of course, that also means we really ought to end lockdown.

    Just want to see the country in as good a position as possible with respect to immunity. Do we have mix and match trials ongoing at the moment ? Because if we don't, we should.
    We do.

    I posted a Nature article, and the preliminary results from the trial in Spain is that AZN first plus Pfizer second stimulates a stronger immune response than either using AZN or Pfizer twice.

    Canada, France, Spain, Germany and a bunch of other countries have now approved AZN followed by Pfizer, and we should probably do the same.
    Isn't the catch that the UK has something of an excess of AZN over AZN-able arms already, and not as much Pfizer as it could really do with to vaccinate the youngsters?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    All this talk of experimenting and needing to get as many doses etc. etc.

    Isn't the reality that because COVID is so rare and so unlikely to kill people at the moment, there's no scientific basis for taking risks. Unlike back in January...

    Of course, that also means we really ought to end lockdown.

    Just want to see the country in as good a position as possible with respect to immunity. Do we have mix and match trials ongoing at the moment ? Because if we don't, we should.
    We do.

    I posted a Nature article, and the preliminary results from the trial in Spain is that AZN first plus Pfizer second stimulates a stronger immune response than either using AZN or Pfizer twice.

    Canada, France, Spain, Germany and a bunch of other countries have now approved AZN followed by Pfizer, and we should probably do the same.
    Isn't the catch that the UK has something of an excess of AZN over AZN-able arms already, and not as much Pfizer as it could really do with to vaccinate the youngsters?
    Yes, but we'll be getting more Pfizer. Doing five million AZN arms now, and then giving second doses of Pfizer in eight weeks time sounds like a perfectly sensible plan.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,793

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    Yeap...especially if it is made clear that this is our way to give everybody the ability to get out on the razz to clubs, to festivals, etc.
    Except the JCVI data shows that to the young there is more risk from the AZN vaccine than there is from Covid.

    So how about just opening up festivals etc, let them happen, and let the young get vaccinated once there's sufficient Pfizer etc available?

    Why use a cure that is worse than the disease now? Which incidentally includes lockdowns too.
    "Except the JCVI data shows that to the young there is more risk from the AZN vaccine than there is from Covid" - as long as there's very little covid around (as per April).
    As soon as the prevalence increases and their chance of actually catching covid increases past "very low right now", that equation changes.
    Delta therefore changes it all on its own, as does relaxation of restrictions.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    rkrkrk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    1.3 in 1m for AZ blood clot on 2nd dose... and all of those have been reported in people over 50.
    For under 50, there have been 2.7m doses given and no clots. First dose has higher risk - think it's 13.6 in 1 million.
    Is that true? I thought - based on the global evidence - that the people most at risk of clots (albeit rarely fatal) were young women, who might well also be on the pill.
    I'm going by this UK data: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

    "The overall incidence after first or unknown doses was 13.6 per million doses. Taking into account the different numbers of patients vaccinated with COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca in different age groups, the data shows that there is a higher reported incidence rate in the younger adult age groups following the first dose compared to the older groups. (18.0 per million doses in those aged 18-49 years compared to 10.2 per million doses in those aged 50 years and over). The MHRA advises that this evolving evidence should be taken into account when considering the use of the vaccine. There is now some evidence that the reported incidence rate is higher in females compared to men although this is not seen across all age groups and the difference remains small.

    The overall incidence after second doses was 1.3 per million doses. All reported cases following a second dose are in patients aged 50 years and over, for whom the reported incidence rate is 1.4 per million second doses. Currently, no cases have been reported following a second dose in patients aged 18-49 years with an estimated 2.7 million in this age group having received both doses. This should not be directly compared to the incidence rate reported after the first dose as the time for follow-up and identification of cases after second doses is more limited. However, the data are reassuring at this stage and suggest that the reported incidence rate following a second dose is lower than that seen following a first dose."
    From that piece: the data shows that there is a higher reported incidence rate in the younger adult age groups following the first dose compared to the older groups.

    So, using second dose is a bit misleading.
    How is it misleading?

    If you've had your first dose [like me!] and you are wondering about 2nd dose... it's relevant to look at 2nd dose! And reassuring to know risk seems to be less than 1st dose and no adverse instances reported in 2.7m doses.
    I thought we were talking of the overall risk of using AZ for younger age groups.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    All this talk of experimenting and needing to get as many doses etc. etc.

    Isn't the reality that because COVID is so rare and so unlikely to kill people at the moment, there's no scientific basis for taking risks. Unlike back in January...

    Of course, that also means we really ought to end lockdown.

    Just want to see the country in as good a position as possible with respect to immunity. Do we have mix and match trials ongoing at the moment ? Because if we don't, we should.
    We do.

    I posted a Nature article, and the preliminary results from the trial in Spain is that AZN first plus Pfizer second stimulates a stronger immune response than either using AZN or Pfizer twice.

    Canada, France, Spain, Germany and a bunch of other countries have now approved AZN followed by Pfizer, and we should probably do the same.
    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    All this talk of experimenting and needing to get as many doses etc. etc.

    Isn't the reality that because COVID is so rare and so unlikely to kill people at the moment, there's no scientific basis for taking risks. Unlike back in January...

    Of course, that also means we really ought to end lockdown.

    Just want to see the country in as good a position as possible with respect to immunity. Do we have mix and match trials ongoing at the moment ? Because if we don't, we should.
    We do.

    I posted a Nature article, and the preliminary results from the trial in Spain is that AZN first plus Pfizer second stimulates a stronger immune response than either using AZN or Pfizer twice.

    Canada, France, Spain, Germany and a bunch of other countries have now approved AZN followed by Pfizer, and we should probably do the same.
    But its too late for us to do that, since rollout is already done. Over 40s have already had their doses so too late to do a mix and match for them.

    The JCVI shows that the remaining age groups getting AZN is more risky than the miniscule risk from Covid. So doing a mix and match for them would be riskied than letting them take their chances until they can get Pfizer.
    That's a little misleading because:

    (a) It ignores the benefit to everyone from reducing the number of potential Covid hosts.
    (b) It relies on a very low community prevalence of Covid. If there's more Covid around (because of - say- the Delta variant), then the equation changes.
    (c), the vaccine risk is for a particular point in time (i.e. getting the vaccine), while the Covid risk is potentially over decades
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    Offer the AZ to the young, on the basis that by accepting them, they are also accepting there is a very, very slight risk of bad shit happening.

    And watch the website crash with those who want to take that very, very slight risk....
    Yeap...especially if it is made clear that this is our way to give everybody the ability to get out on the razz to clubs, to festivals, etc.
    Except the JCVI data shows that to the young there is more risk from the AZN vaccine than there is from Covid.

    So how about just opening up festivals etc, let them happen, and let the young get vaccinated once there's sufficient Pfizer etc available?

    Why use a cure that is worse than the disease now? Which incidentally includes lockdowns too.
    "Except the JCVI data shows that to the young there is more risk from the AZN vaccine than there is from Covid" - as long as there's very little covid around (as per April).
    As soon as the prevalence increases and their chance of actually catching covid increases past "very low right now", that equation changes.
    Delta therefore changes it all on its own, as does relaxation of restrictions.
    Though prevalence is still really low. People are hyperventilating about a few thousand cases per day when 80% of the nation have antibodies and there's half a million vaccinations happening per day.

    The virus is running out of people to infect.

    Though its worth concentrating what vaccine supplies we do have in Manchester, Lancashire and other hotspots. An 18 year old in Manchester or Bolton is going to be at higher risk than a 25 year old in the Cotswolds.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,793
    tlg86 said:

    All this talk of experimenting and needing to get as many doses etc. etc.

    Isn't the reality that because COVID is so rare and so unlikely to kill people at the moment, there's no scientific basis for taking risks. Unlike back in January...

    Of course, that also means we really ought to end lockdown.

    If the calculation is based on Covid being so rare at the moment, then taking an action that would result in it not being anywhere near as rare makes a very big difference to the calculation.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343
    Andy_JS said:

    moonshine said:

    Bending the knee should be replaced with the players standing with their arms locked around each other. We stand together we fall together. And once the covid nanny state allows it, repeated across the entire stadium, with the whole stand locked arm in arm together. What an image that would be.

    This would take away the unwelcome political and submission element of the knee gesture, be something that all non racists would get behind while quickly out the racists, and pump up the adrenaline of the fans and players before kick off, especially if accompanied by a roar at the end.

    I am not a particularly clever or creative person, it staggers me they haven’t come up with this themselves.

    It doesn't matter what gesture is chosen, the thick racists will object to it.
    The problem is the fact that it's a gesture, which is a substitute for doing anything worthwhile. So yes, any other gesture would be just as bad.
    There's lots to not like about all this. One thing is that it intends that everyone either approves or is wrong. Like so many things it does not want to allow for a middle position - a position which doesn't adopt either extreme on a issue but seeks to find a middle way. And it doesn't want you to be allowed to be a neutral - just uninvolved because your interest is elsewhere.

    A bit like the poppy fascists, for whom not wearing a poppy for days on end is a sign of being pacifist/treacherous/Corbynista etc.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    All this talk of experimenting and needing to get as many doses etc. etc.

    Isn't the reality that because COVID is so rare and so unlikely to kill people at the moment, there's no scientific basis for taking risks. Unlike back in January...

    Of course, that also means we really ought to end lockdown.

    Just want to see the country in as good a position as possible with respect to immunity. Do we have mix and match trials ongoing at the moment ? Because if we don't, we should.
    We do.

    I posted a Nature article, and the preliminary results from the trial in Spain is that AZN first plus Pfizer second stimulates a stronger immune response than either using AZN or Pfizer twice.

    Canada, France, Spain, Germany and a bunch of other countries have now approved AZN followed by Pfizer, and we should probably do the same.
    rcs1000 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    All this talk of experimenting and needing to get as many doses etc. etc.

    Isn't the reality that because COVID is so rare and so unlikely to kill people at the moment, there's no scientific basis for taking risks. Unlike back in January...

    Of course, that also means we really ought to end lockdown.

    Just want to see the country in as good a position as possible with respect to immunity. Do we have mix and match trials ongoing at the moment ? Because if we don't, we should.
    We do.

    I posted a Nature article, and the preliminary results from the trial in Spain is that AZN first plus Pfizer second stimulates a stronger immune response than either using AZN or Pfizer twice.

    Canada, France, Spain, Germany and a bunch of other countries have now approved AZN followed by Pfizer, and we should probably do the same.
    But its too late for us to do that, since rollout is already done. Over 40s have already had their doses so too late to do a mix and match for them.

    The JCVI shows that the remaining age groups getting AZN is more risky than the miniscule risk from Covid. So doing a mix and match for them would be riskied than letting them take their chances until they can get Pfizer.
    That's a little misleading because:

    (a) It ignores the benefit to everyone from reducing the number of potential Covid hosts.
    (b) It relies on a very low community prevalence of Covid. If there's more Covid around (because of - say- the Delta variant), then the equation changes.
    (c), the vaccine risk is for a particular point in time (i.e. getting the vaccine), while the Covid risk is potentially over decades
    How is decades relevant when the alternative is not "don't get vaccinated" its "get Pfizer or Moderna" which will be available within a few weeks, not decades.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 13,766
    Harry really is part of the Celebritocracy now; he has named his child with a made up name. Perhaps the next one will be called West?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    tlg86 said:

    All this talk of experimenting and needing to get as many doses etc. etc.

    Isn't the reality that because COVID is so rare and so unlikely to kill people at the moment, there's no scientific basis for taking risks. Unlike back in January...

    Of course, that also means we really ought to end lockdown.

    If the calculation is based on Covid being so rare at the moment, then taking an action that would result in it not being anywhere near as rare makes a very big difference to the calculation.
    80% of adults have antibodies already.

    The virus is only ever going to remain rare. We have herd immunity. There will be some people who get infected, but the idea of an overwhelming widespread pandemic is non-existant now. It can't happen already.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham wants to see a surge in vaccinations in the region to combat the Delta variant.

    It would allow younger age groups to be vaccinated more quickly.

    But the problem is that supplies of the vaccines needed to do that – Pfizer and Moderna – are limited, according to government sources.

    There is currently thought to be a stockpile of more than five million vaccine doses, but they are almost entirely AstraZeneca, which is not being used for the under 40s.

    Currently about four million extra doses are being supplied by manufacturers. But most of this comes from the UK’s AstraZeneca plants. On average around 1.5 million doses of Pfizer and Moderna are being imported in each week.

    ---

    FFS...5 million doses sitting doing nothing...get them in arms.

    Surely we could do a scheme where your young, they tell you, you can come today, its going to be AZN, or if you don't wait for Pfizer / Moderna. Its up to you.

    My guess is that the big optimal gap for AZN means that it might now be more efficient to wait for PFE and Moderna, than to get those doses into peoples' arms.

    That being said, in Canada and much of the EU you are now seeing mixing and matching of vaccines. So, you get AZN first, and then one of the mRNA vaccines as your second shot.

    I don't see why the UK doesn't follow the same principle. Especially given the emerging evidence is that mixing and matching produces a better immune response.
    If PHE is to be believed, one dose of Pfizer / Moderna is still only 30% effective against Indian variant, the same as AZN, until you get your second dose.

    Now I am a bit sceptical about that, but if that's the evidence we have to go on, the race should be to get as many people with 2 doses of whatever we can give them asap.
    The PHE infection data included a lot of people who'd only got their first jab in the previous two weeks (around half of the people with only one jab IIRC), so quite a few of those people may have already caught Delta before getting vaccinated given the typical gap between infection and diagnosis.
    Sure, but the conventional wisdom is that there is a significant drop off with only one dose, but two doses is basically the same. Now as I said, I don't think its as low as 30%, but if we have the capacity to get two doses into more people, we should be doing that.
    I fully agree.

    Given the emerging data is that mix and match is actually more efficacious, then offering the five million to people who simply want to walk in, with the promise of their second shot being Moderna or Pfizer makes an enormous amount of sense, as well as continuing to collapse the number of potential hosts for the virus faster.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    edited June 2021
    maaarsh said:

    Incidentally, on the livestream for Lancashire's first T20 game the players all lined up to 'stand up for inclusion' and got a round of applause.

    Now it may be that cricket attracts a better clientele, or it may be Philip is wrong on this one and an alternative gesture would solve the impasse.

    It's an improvement. But I still don't know what English cricket has to do with American policing.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    tlg86 said:

    All this talk of experimenting and needing to get as many doses etc. etc.

    Isn't the reality that because COVID is so rare and so unlikely to kill people at the moment, there's no scientific basis for taking risks. Unlike back in January...

    Of course, that also means we really ought to end lockdown.

    If the calculation is based on Covid being so rare at the moment, then taking an action that would result in it not being anywhere near as rare makes a very big difference to the calculation.
    Are there estimates for what difference the final stage of unlocking would make? It seems to me that much of the activity that makes it spread - especially household mixing - is happening now.

    I think what the government ought to do is allow everything (domestically) to go back to normal except say that people should continue to work from home if possible.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Andy_JS said:

    maaarsh said:

    Incidentally, on the livestream for Lancashire's first T20 game the players all lined up to 'stand up for inclusion' and got a round of applause.

    Now it may be that cricket attracts a better clientele, or it may be Philip is wrong on this one and an alternative gesture would solve the impasse.

    It's an improvement. But I still don't know what English cricket has to do with American policing.
    Why do you think American policing is relevant to the story?

    Its a gesture against racism that sport players (especially in football) have to put up with.
This discussion has been closed.