Rishi now leading Boris as “Most capable PM” – politicalbetting.com

alex_ said:

Andy_JS said:

"Pfizer and AstraZeneca deny domestic coronavirus vaccine shortage

Drugs giants Pfizer and AstraZeneca have rejected an NHS claim that the UK is facing a COVID-19 vaccine shortage, insisting there is no threat to supplies. The two leading vaccine manufacturers both said they remain on course to meet their delivery commitments and denied they were facing disruption in supplies. Their defiant statements appeared to contradict a letter to vaccination centres from NHS England warning there will be a "significant reduction" in supplies next month."

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-pfizer-and-astrazeneca-deny-coronavirus-vaccine-shortage-12249287

Instinct is that both can be true. NHS could have been hoping for a scaling up in supplies to outpace the need for second jabs. “Shortfall” is being misrepresented as “reduction”.

Or it could just all be expectations management. Or simply somebody somewhere along the line made a miscalculation on supply versus need (most likely explanation...)

NickPalmer said:

The Broxtowe story is here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-56429122

felix said:

kamski said:

Sandpit said:

kamski said:

moonshine said:

To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:

The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.

When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.

Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.

Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.

In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.

When did India assure its own population it wouldn't export any vaccine? They've exported 58 million doses - more than they've actually used in India

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/india-exports-over-twice-the-number-of-doses-used-at-home/articleshow/81540812.cms

When the AZ vaccine was first licenced in India, there was officially an export ban put in place, then exemptions were made for Covax, then a big order from somewhere or other, and before you know it half have gone elsewhere. There’s now, understandably, some pushback on the politicians, who are being told to prioritise Indians over exports.

Of course, IF the Indian government has kept back vaccines destined for the UK I expect lots of calls on PB.com to nuke India.

What an idiotic comment.

Charles said:

MarqueeMark said:

Charles said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1372308403528343552

That’s mean of the picture editor 😂

Any politician doing the Double-Thumbs Thing invariably looks dumb. Trump did it. Boris does it. Only Tricky Dickie Nixon managed a worse look with the Double-V-for-Victory thing. Urgh.

Knock it off, Boris.

It’s the juxtaposition of the photo and the headline...

Pagan2 said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

CarlottaVance said:

The WSJ has worked it out...

https://twitter.com/bopanc/status/1372185988190113795?s=20

I presume VDL has been informed of this...

I would hope we don't respond by doing that however a government statement along the lines of

"We are deeply saddened by the eu actions and while we could reciprocate by blocking raw material supplies we are a moral country that doesn't consider harming eu citizens is right just because their politicians wish to act like jilted lovers"

kamski said:

felix said:

kamski said:

Sandpit said:

kamski said:

moonshine said:

To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:

The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.

When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.

Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.

Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.

In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.

When did India assure its own population it wouldn't export any vaccine? They've exported 58 million doses - more than they've actually used in India

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/india-exports-over-twice-the-number-of-doses-used-at-home/articleshow/81540812.cms

When the AZ vaccine was first licenced in India, there was officially an export ban put in place, then exemptions were made for Covax, then a big order from somewhere or other, and before you know it half have gone elsewhere. There’s now, understandably, some pushback on the politicians, who are being told to prioritise Indians over exports.

Of course, IF the Indian government has kept back vaccines destined for the UK I expect lots of calls on PB.com to nuke India.

What an idiotic comment.

Why idiotic? Now I don't think the Indian government is holding back exports, but that is what some seem to be suggesting. Nor am I in favour of anyone nuking anyone.
People were calling on the UK to nuke Europe yesterday, so it would just be consistent.

Foxy said:

DavidL said:

alex_ said:

dixiedean said:

Yokes said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Labour calls for full Covid public inquiry starting in June

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/17/labour-calls-for-full-covid-public-inquiry-starting-in-june

I was wondering who was behind Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice pressure group. From a quick look at some of the organizers, its looks like another (non) Independent SAGE type group.

Its a great idea,. we can then find out why the the NHS packed all those people back off to nursing homes and why and what the failings of NHS were in helping us to a very large number of deaths.
But we wont because no one wants to lift that rock.

We will blame the politicians 100%, not the wonks, or the doctors who advise and devise nor point out that we are a fat nation

With respect. That wouldn't be a "full" one. All those things would be good to know for next time.
I know, I know.

“The next time” sending the elderly off to nursing homes could be the right decision. That’s the whole problem. It was (highly probably - hospitals were/are very dangerous places for non infected people) the wrong decision this time because of the particular features of Covid 19. Features which were clearly poorly understood at the time, and indeed still don’t be, given there is still a high focus on clean hands and surfaces which at best seems to be a minor effect on virus spread (and not nearly enough on fresh air and ventilation). A different virus, with different characteristics and maximum hospital capacity could be THE defining need.

People talk about the nursing home decisions as officials acting like callous murderers deliberately seeking to kill tens of thousands of people. A balanced enquiry has to look at why those decisions were made, and whether without the benefit of hindsight such decisions might, could or should have been different. There is an enormous risk that the battle against a future pandemic will be lost because eg. We use fighting COVID as the template and discover that we’re fighting some completely different.

In Scotland 2/3 of all cases of Covid were caught in hospital. Even those that infected care homes were infected there. I was extremely anxious about my wife being in hospital this week and that is before I saw the disgraceful conditions they were operating because hospitals are extremely dangerous places which, if you are vulnerable to Covid, you want to get out of as fast as possible.

The key question was whether the discharges were motivated by the interests of the patient or those of the organisation? If people known to be infected were discharged to free beds in hospital then that was not in the interest of the patient.

Andy_JS said:

alex_ said:

Andy_JS said:

"Pfizer and AstraZeneca deny domestic coronavirus vaccine shortage

Drugs giants Pfizer and AstraZeneca have rejected an NHS claim that the UK is facing a COVID-19 vaccine shortage, insisting there is no threat to supplies. The two leading vaccine manufacturers both said they remain on course to meet their delivery commitments and denied they were facing disruption in supplies. Their defiant statements appeared to contradict a letter to vaccination centres from NHS England warning there will be a "significant reduction" in supplies next month."

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-pfizer-and-astrazeneca-deny-coronavirus-vaccine-shortage-12249287

Instinct is that both can be true. NHS could have been hoping for a scaling up in supplies to outpace the need for second jabs. “Shortfall” is being misrepresented as “reduction”.

Or it could just all be expectations management. Or simply somebody somewhere along the line made a miscalculation on supply versus need (most likely explanation...)

The uncertainty over this is awful. The government has to tell us what's going on.

alex_ said:

moonshine said:

To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:

The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.

When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.

Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.

Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.

In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.

Import from India to the EU of course isn’t allowed, as per the EU-AZ contract...

MattW said:

alex_ said:

moonshine said:

To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:

The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.

When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.

Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.

Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.

In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.

Import from India to the EU of course isn’t allowed, as per the EU-AZ contract...

Isn't it?

But the EU have been inspecting SII vaccine production facilities with a view to importing vaccine.

I recall a clause allowing AZ to use other facilities apart from the 4 identified, with EU agreement, but not one the other way.

alex_ said:

Foxy said:

DavidL said:

alex_ said:

dixiedean said:

Yokes said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Labour calls for full Covid public inquiry starting in June

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/17/labour-calls-for-full-covid-public-inquiry-starting-in-june

I was wondering who was behind Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice pressure group. From a quick look at some of the organizers, its looks like another (non) Independent SAGE type group.

Its a great idea,. we can then find out why the the NHS packed all those people back off to nursing homes and why and what the failings of NHS were in helping us to a very large number of deaths.
But we wont because no one wants to lift that rock.

We will blame the politicians 100%, not the wonks, or the doctors who advise and devise nor point out that we are a fat nation

With respect. That wouldn't be a "full" one. All those things would be good to know for next time.
I know, I know.

“The next time” sending the elderly off to nursing homes could be the right decision. That’s the whole problem. It was (highly probably - hospitals were/are very dangerous places for non infected people) the wrong decision this time because of the particular features of Covid 19. Features which were clearly poorly understood at the time, and indeed still don’t be, given there is still a high focus on clean hands and surfaces which at best seems to be a minor effect on virus spread (and not nearly enough on fresh air and ventilation). A different virus, with different characteristics and maximum hospital capacity could be THE defining need.

People talk about the nursing home decisions as officials acting like callous murderers deliberately seeking to kill tens of thousands of people. A balanced enquiry has to look at why those decisions were made, and whether without the benefit of hindsight such decisions might, could or should have been different. There is an enormous risk that the battle against a future pandemic will be lost because eg. We use fighting COVID as the template and discover that we’re fighting some completely different.

In Scotland 2/3 of all cases of Covid were caught in hospital. Even those that infected care homes were infected there. I was extremely anxious about my wife being in hospital this week and that is before I saw the disgraceful conditions they were operating because hospitals are extremely dangerous places which, if you are vulnerable to Covid, you want to get out of as fast as possible.

The key question was whether the discharges were motivated by the interests of the patient or those of the organisation? If people known to be infected were discharged to free beds in hospital then that was not in the interest of the patient.

My memory of how it was reported was not (in most cases anyway) that people known to be infected were discharged. But simply that not enough care was taken to ensure that they weren't - and on the back of confidence on official guidance for likely infectivity (particularly absent a test) that was woefully inadequate. The virus had simply spread far further and was far more infectious over a far greater period, than those making the decisions and constructing government guidance had realised.

And even if it were realised that in some cases infected people would be released, the numbers that were and the extent to which they represented a danger to others was woefully underestimated.

But, of course, that is for the inquiry to determine.

alex_ said:

Andy_JS said:

alex_ said:

Andy_JS said:

"Pfizer and AstraZeneca deny domestic coronavirus vaccine shortage

Drugs giants Pfizer and AstraZeneca have rejected an NHS claim that the UK is facing a COVID-19 vaccine shortage, insisting there is no threat to supplies. The two leading vaccine manufacturers both said they remain on course to meet their delivery commitments and denied they were facing disruption in supplies. Their defiant statements appeared to contradict a letter to vaccination centres from NHS England warning there will be a "significant reduction" in supplies next month."

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-pfizer-and-astrazeneca-deny-coronavirus-vaccine-shortage-12249287

Instinct is that both can be true. NHS could have been hoping for a scaling up in supplies to outpace the need for second jabs. “Shortfall” is being misrepresented as “reduction”.

Or it could just all be expectations management. Or simply somebody somewhere along the line made a miscalculation on supply versus need (most likely explanation...)

The uncertainty over this is awful. The government has to tell us what's going on.

I feel compelled to repeat something i wrote yesterday (vanity about quality of my contributions)

"Here's the thing though. This is hugely irresponsible reporting as usual by journalists (no surprise to see LauraK at the forefront) desperate to break a story before being in control of the facts.

So you get a leaked letter about a slow down in supply and/or the vaccine programme (it's not clear). How about doing some proper journalism and getting a complete picture before splashing the story as "breaking news" on the BBC? And then putting the Health Secretary on the spot to come out with instant comments that will clearly not be complete and can be packaged however you want them.

As it is she's "broken" the story, and is now left coming out with random tweets trying to fill in the gaps to try and establish whether this actually is or isn't a big deal."

Or insist that the Government is fully transparent, despite there be many potentially good reasons for them not wanting to be so.

alex_ said:

Foxy said:

DavidL said:

alex_ said:

dixiedean said:

Yokes said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Labour calls for full Covid public inquiry starting in June

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/17/labour-calls-for-full-covid-public-inquiry-starting-in-june

I was wondering who was behind Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice pressure group. From a quick look at some of the organizers, its looks like another (non) Independent SAGE type group.

Its a great idea,. we can then find out why the the NHS packed all those people back off to nursing homes and why and what the failings of NHS were in helping us to a very large number of deaths.
But we wont because no one wants to lift that rock.

We will blame the politicians 100%, not the wonks, or the doctors who advise and devise nor point out that we are a fat nation

With respect. That wouldn't be a "full" one. All those things would be good to know for next time.
I know, I know.

“The next time” sending the elderly off to nursing homes could be the right decision. That’s the whole problem. It was (highly probably - hospitals were/are very dangerous places for non infected people) the wrong decision this time because of the particular features of Covid 19. Features which were clearly poorly understood at the time, and indeed still don’t be, given there is still a high focus on clean hands and surfaces which at best seems to be a minor effect on virus spread (and not nearly enough on fresh air and ventilation). A different virus, with different characteristics and maximum hospital capacity could be THE defining need.

People talk about the nursing home decisions as officials acting like callous murderers deliberately seeking to kill tens of thousands of people. A balanced enquiry has to look at why those decisions were made, and whether without the benefit of hindsight such decisions might, could or should have been different. There is an enormous risk that the battle against a future pandemic will be lost because eg. We use fighting COVID as the template and discover that we’re fighting some completely different.

In Scotland 2/3 of all cases of Covid were caught in hospital. Even those that infected care homes were infected there. I was extremely anxious about my wife being in hospital this week and that is before I saw the disgraceful conditions they were operating because hospitals are extremely dangerous places which, if you are vulnerable to Covid, you want to get out of as fast as possible.

The key question was whether the discharges were motivated by the interests of the patient or those of the organisation? If people known to be infected were discharged to free beds in hospital then that was not in the interest of the patient.

My memory of how it was reported was not (in most cases anyway) that people known to be infected were discharged. But simply that not enough care was taken to ensure that they weren't - and on the back of confidence on official guidance for likely infectivity (particularly absent a test) that was woefully inadequate. The virus had simply spread far further and was far more infectious over a far greater period, than those making the decisions and constructing government guidance had realised.

And even if it were realised that in some cases infected people would be released, the numbers that were and the extent to which they represented a danger to others was woefully underestimated.

But, of course, that is for the inquiry to determine.

Gadfly said:

alex_ said:

Andy_JS said:

alex_ said:

Andy_JS said:

"Pfizer and AstraZeneca deny domestic coronavirus vaccine shortage

Drugs giants Pfizer and AstraZeneca have rejected an NHS claim that the UK is facing a COVID-19 vaccine shortage, insisting there is no threat to supplies. The two leading vaccine manufacturers both said they remain on course to meet their delivery commitments and denied they were facing disruption in supplies. Their defiant statements appeared to contradict a letter to vaccination centres from NHS England warning there will be a "significant reduction" in supplies next month."

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-pfizer-and-astrazeneca-deny-coronavirus-vaccine-shortage-12249287

Instinct is that both can be true. NHS could have been hoping for a scaling up in supplies to outpace the need for second jabs. “Shortfall” is being misrepresented as “reduction”.

Or it could just all be expectations management. Or simply somebody somewhere along the line made a miscalculation on supply versus need (most likely explanation...)

The uncertainty over this is awful. The government has to tell us what's going on.

I feel compelled to repeat something i wrote yesterday (vanity about quality of my contributions)

"Here's the thing though. This is hugely irresponsible reporting as usual by journalists (no surprise to see LauraK at the forefront) desperate to break a story before being in control of the facts.

So you get a leaked letter about a slow down in supply and/or the vaccine programme (it's not clear). How about doing some proper journalism and getting a complete picture before splashing the story as "breaking news" on the BBC? And then putting the Health Secretary on the spot to come out with instant comments that will clearly not be complete and can be packaged however you want them.

As it is she's "broken" the story, and is now left coming out with random tweets trying to fill in the gaps to try and establish whether this actually is or isn't a big deal."

Or insist that the Government is fully transparent, despite there be many potentially good reasons for them not wanting to be so.

Today's Times headline disingenuously portrays correlation as causation...

"Setback for Britain’s vaccine rollout. Under-50s have programme paused as EU calls for ‘fair share’"

eek said:

kamski said:

felix said:

kamski said:

Sandpit said:

kamski said:

moonshine said:

To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:

The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.

When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.

Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.

Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.

In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.

When did India assure its own population it wouldn't export any vaccine? They've exported 58 million doses - more than they've actually used in India

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/india-exports-over-twice-the-number-of-doses-used-at-home/articleshow/81540812.cms

When the AZ vaccine was first licenced in India, there was officially an export ban put in place, then exemptions were made for Covax, then a big order from somewhere or other, and before you know it half have gone elsewhere. There’s now, understandably, some pushback on the politicians, who are being told to prioritise Indians over exports.

Of course, IF the Indian government has kept back vaccines destined for the UK I expect lots of calls on PB.com to nuke India.

What an idiotic comment.

Why idiotic? Now I don't think the Indian government is holding back exports, but that is what some seem to be suggesting. Nor am I in favour of anyone nuking anyone.
People were calling on the UK to nuke Europe yesterday, so it would just be consistent.

India has nukes - we aren't that stupid.

The interesting bit is that I doubt anyone on here was aware that we were supposed to be receiving a batch of vaccinations from India - I suspect even MaxPB wasn't aware of that fact...

alex_ said:

Foxy said:

DavidL said:

alex_ said:

dixiedean said:

Yokes said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Labour calls for full Covid public inquiry starting in June

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/17/labour-calls-for-full-covid-public-inquiry-starting-in-june

I was wondering who was behind Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice pressure group. From a quick look at some of the organizers, its looks like another (non) Independent SAGE type group.

Its a great idea,. we can then find out why the the NHS packed all those people back off to nursing homes and why and what the failings of NHS were in helping us to a very large number of deaths.
But we wont because no one wants to lift that rock.

We will blame the politicians 100%, not the wonks, or the doctors who advise and devise nor point out that we are a fat nation

With respect. That wouldn't be a "full" one. All those things would be good to know for next time.
I know, I know.

“The next time” sending the elderly off to nursing homes could be the right decision. That’s the whole problem. It was (highly probably - hospitals were/are very dangerous places for non infected people) the wrong decision this time because of the particular features of Covid 19. Features which were clearly poorly understood at the time, and indeed still don’t be, given there is still a high focus on clean hands and surfaces which at best seems to be a minor effect on virus spread (and not nearly enough on fresh air and ventilation). A different virus, with different characteristics and maximum hospital capacity could be THE defining need.

People talk about the nursing home decisions as officials acting like callous murderers deliberately seeking to kill tens of thousands of people. A balanced enquiry has to look at why those decisions were made, and whether without the benefit of hindsight such decisions might, could or should have been different. There is an enormous risk that the battle against a future pandemic will be lost because eg. We use fighting COVID as the template and discover that we’re fighting some completely different.

In Scotland 2/3 of all cases of Covid were caught in hospital. Even those that infected care homes were infected there. I was extremely anxious about my wife being in hospital this week and that is before I saw the disgraceful conditions they were operating because hospitals are extremely dangerous places which, if you are vulnerable to Covid, you want to get out of as fast as possible.

The key question was whether the discharges were motivated by the interests of the patient or those of the organisation? If people known to be infected were discharged to free beds in hospital then that was not in the interest of the patient.

My memory of how it was reported was not (in most cases anyway) that people known to be infected were discharged. But simply that not enough care was taken to ensure that they weren't - and on the back of confidence on official guidance for likely infectivity (particularly absent a test) that was woefully inadequate. The virus had simply spread far further and was far more infectious over a far greater period, than those making the decisions and constructing government guidance had realised.

And even if it were realised that in some cases infected people would be released, the numbers that were and the extent to which they represented a danger to others was woefully underestimated.

But, of course, that is for the inquiry to determine.

Charles said:

eek said:

kamski said:

felix said:

kamski said:

Sandpit said:

kamski said:

moonshine said:

To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:

The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.

When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.

Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.

Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.

In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.

When did India assure its own population it wouldn't export any vaccine? They've exported 58 million doses - more than they've actually used in India

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/india-exports-over-twice-the-number-of-doses-used-at-home/articleshow/81540812.cms

When the AZ vaccine was first licenced in India, there was officially an export ban put in place, then exemptions were made for Covax, then a big order from somewhere or other, and before you know it half have gone elsewhere. There’s now, understandably, some pushback on the politicians, who are being told to prioritise Indians over exports.

Of course, IF the Indian government has kept back vaccines destined for the UK I expect lots of calls on PB.com to nuke India.

What an idiotic comment.

Why idiotic? Now I don't think the Indian government is holding back exports, but that is what some seem to be suggesting. Nor am I in favour of anyone nuking anyone.
People were calling on the UK to nuke Europe yesterday, so it would just be consistent.

India has nukes - we aren't that stupid.

The interesting bit is that I doubt anyone on here was aware that we were supposed to be receiving a batch of vaccinations from India - I suspect even MaxPB wasn't aware of that fact...

I’m sure I saw it reported a month or so back. But was definitely aware of it for a while

felix said:

kamski said:

Sandpit said:

kamski said:

moonshine said:

To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:

The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.

When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.

Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.

Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.

In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.

When did India assure its own population it wouldn't export any vaccine? They've exported 58 million doses - more than they've actually used in India

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/india-exports-over-twice-the-number-of-doses-used-at-home/articleshow/81540812.cms

When the AZ vaccine was first licenced in India, there was officially an export ban put in place, then exemptions were made for Covax, then a big order from somewhere or other, and before you know it half have gone elsewhere. There’s now, understandably, some pushback on the politicians, who are being told to prioritise Indians over exports.

Of course, IF the Indian government has kept back vaccines destined for the UK I expect lots of calls on PB.com to nuke India.

What an idiotic comment.

DavidL said:

alex_ said:

dixiedean said:

Yokes said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Labour calls for full Covid public inquiry starting in June

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/17/labour-calls-for-full-covid-public-inquiry-starting-in-june

I was wondering who was behind Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice pressure group. From a quick look at some of the organizers, its looks like another (non) Independent SAGE type group.

Its a great idea,. we can then find out why the the NHS packed all those people back off to nursing homes and why and what the failings of NHS were in helping us to a very large number of deaths.
But we wont because no one wants to lift that rock.

We will blame the politicians 100%, not the wonks, or the doctors who advise and devise nor point out that we are a fat nation

With respect. That wouldn't be a "full" one. All those things would be good to know for next time.
I know, I know.

“The next time” sending the elderly off to nursing homes could be the right decision. That’s the whole problem. It was (highly probably - hospitals were/are very dangerous places for non infected people) the wrong decision this time because of the particular features of Covid 19. Features which were clearly poorly understood at the time, and indeed still don’t be, given there is still a high focus on clean hands and surfaces which at best seems to be a minor effect on virus spread (and not nearly enough on fresh air and ventilation). A different virus, with different characteristics and maximum hospital capacity could be THE defining need.

People talk about the nursing home decisions as officials acting like callous murderers deliberately seeking to kill tens of thousands of people. A balanced enquiry has to look at why those decisions were made, and whether without the benefit of hindsight such decisions might, could or should have been different. There is an enormous risk that the battle against a future pandemic will be lost because eg. We use fighting COVID as the template and discover that we’re fighting some completely different.

In Scotland 2/3 of all cases of Covid were caught in hospital. Even those that infected care homes were infected there. I was extremely anxious about my wife being in hospital this week and that is before I saw the disgraceful conditions they were operating because hospitals are extremely dangerous places which, if you are vulnerable to Covid, you want to get out of as fast as possible.

geoffw said:

Off topic (and possibly only of interest to rcs100). Though our car has barely been used for a year the insurance renewal was up significantly from last year. But I found an insurance that's based on a fixed cost for a parked car with added marginal cost per mile driven. It involves a device plugged into the ODB2 port (news to me) which is tucked away in the recesses near the pedals, which tells how far the car has been driven. I have a suspicion that the greatly reduced use of cars in the pandemic will stimulate this kind of insurance going forward (which our car hasn't been for a while!).

Philip_Thompson said:

I don't think anyone on this site or elsewhere seriously suggested nuking Europe.

It's Europe that has lost its mind and is acting hysterically not the UK. Not that a partisan hack like yourself would admit it.

eek said:

Charles said:

eek said:

kamski said:

felix said:

kamski said:

Sandpit said:

kamski said:

moonshine said:

To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:

The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.

When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.

Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.

Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.

In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.

When did India assure its own population it wouldn't export any vaccine? They've exported 58 million doses - more than they've actually used in India

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/india-exports-over-twice-the-number-of-doses-used-at-home/articleshow/81540812.cms

When the AZ vaccine was first licenced in India, there was officially an export ban put in place, then exemptions were made for Covax, then a big order from somewhere or other, and before you know it half have gone elsewhere. There’s now, understandably, some pushback on the politicians, who are being told to prioritise Indians over exports.

Of course, IF the Indian government has kept back vaccines destined for the UK I expect lots of calls on PB.com to nuke India.

What an idiotic comment.

Why idiotic? Now I don't think the Indian government is holding back exports, but that is what some seem to be suggesting. Nor am I in favour of anyone nuking anyone.
People were calling on the UK to nuke Europe yesterday, so it would just be consistent.

India has nukes - we aren't that stupid.

The interesting bit is that I doubt anyone on here was aware that we were supposed to be receiving a batch of vaccinations from India - I suspect even MaxPB wasn't aware of that fact...

I’m sure I saw it reported a month or so back. But was definitely aware of it for a while

In which case it's not a surprise then - the estimated vaccine numbers including sources outside our complete control so there was an additional risk that people (including people on here like me) might not have been aware of .

It does however give some validation to the Time's headline as although there is zero evidence that the EU is getting our supply of AZ from India it probably wouldn't surprise anyone on here if AZ did send some to the EU just to shut them up.

Nigelb said:

One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.

Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder.
...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.

If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...

We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.

IanB2 said:

Nigelb said:

One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.

Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder.
...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.

If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...

We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.

Further to which, the reason for alarm in the original cluster in Norway was the relative youth of those affected.

MattW said:

eek said:

Charles said:

eek said:

kamski said:

felix said:

kamski said:

Sandpit said:

kamski said:

moonshine said:

To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:

The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.

When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.

Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.

Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.

In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.

When did India assure its own population it wouldn't export any vaccine? They've exported 58 million doses - more than they've actually used in India

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/india-exports-over-twice-the-number-of-doses-used-at-home/articleshow/81540812.cms

When the AZ vaccine was first licenced in India, there was officially an export ban put in place, then exemptions were made for Covax, then a big order from somewhere or other, and before you know it half have gone elsewhere. There’s now, understandably, some pushback on the politicians, who are being told to prioritise Indians over exports.

Of course, IF the Indian government has kept back vaccines destined for the UK I expect lots of calls on PB.com to nuke India.

What an idiotic comment.

Why idiotic? Now I don't think the Indian government is holding back exports, but that is what some seem to be suggesting. Nor am I in favour of anyone nuking anyone.
People were calling on the UK to nuke Europe yesterday, so it would just be consistent.

India has nukes - we aren't that stupid.

The interesting bit is that I doubt anyone on here was aware that we were supposed to be receiving a batch of vaccinations from India - I suspect even MaxPB wasn't aware of that fact...

I’m sure I saw it reported a month or so back. But was definitely aware of it for a while

In which case it's not a surprise then - the estimated vaccine numbers including sources outside our complete control so there was an additional risk that people (including people on here like me) might not have been aware of .

It does however give some validation to the Time's headline as although there is zero evidence that the EU is getting our supply of AZ from India it probably wouldn't surprise anyone on here if AZ did send some to the EU just to shut them up.

It was reported, because there were "taking vaccines from developing countries" stories, and Gvt Ministers said that SII had confirmed doses would not be diverted from developing countries.

So it is 'surplus' production, and I would speculate that the reason we aren't getting it quite as quickly as hoped is that developing countries or India's own rollout are being correctly prioritised if there is a squeeze.
https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/uk-import-covid-19-vaccine-192804050.html

MattW said:

eek said:

Charles said:

eek said:

kamski said:

felix said:

kamski said:

Sandpit said:

kamski said:

moonshine said:

To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:

The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.

When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.

Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.

Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.

In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.

When did India assure its own population it wouldn't export any vaccine? They've exported 58 million doses - more than they've actually used in India

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/india-exports-over-twice-the-number-of-doses-used-at-home/articleshow/81540812.cms

When the AZ vaccine was first licenced in India, there was officially an export ban put in place, then exemptions were made for Covax, then a big order from somewhere or other, and before you know it half have gone elsewhere. There’s now, understandably, some pushback on the politicians, who are being told to prioritise Indians over exports.

Of course, IF the Indian government has kept back vaccines destined for the UK I expect lots of calls on PB.com to nuke India.

What an idiotic comment.

Why idiotic? Now I don't think the Indian government is holding back exports, but that is what some seem to be suggesting. Nor am I in favour of anyone nuking anyone.
People were calling on the UK to nuke Europe yesterday, so it would just be consistent.

India has nukes - we aren't that stupid.

The interesting bit is that I doubt anyone on here was aware that we were supposed to be receiving a batch of vaccinations from India - I suspect even MaxPB wasn't aware of that fact...

I’m sure I saw it reported a month or so back. But was definitely aware of it for a while

In which case it's not a surprise then - the estimated vaccine numbers including sources outside our complete control so there was an additional risk that people (including people on here like me) might not have been aware of .

It does however give some validation to the Time's headline as although there is zero evidence that the EU is getting our supply of AZ from India it probably wouldn't surprise anyone on here if AZ did send some to the EU just to shut them up.

It was reported, because there were "taking vaccines from developing countries" stories, and Gvt Ministers said that SII had confirmed doses would not be diverted from developing countries.

So it is 'surplus' production, and I would speculate that the reason we aren't getting it quite as quickly as hoped is that developing countries or India's own rollout are being correctly prioritised if there is a squeeze.
https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/uk-import-covid-19-vaccine-192804050.html

Pulpstar said:

geoffw said:

IanB2 said:

Nigelb said:

One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.

Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder.
...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.

If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...

We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.

Further to which, the reason for alarm in the original cluster in Norway was the relative youth of those affected.

Perhaps the pause in our roll-out to younger cohorts is a godsend.

Got to be joking haven't you ?

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

I don't think anyone on this site or elsewhere seriously suggested nuking Europe.

It's Europe that has lost its mind and is acting hysterically not the UK. Not that a partisan hack like yourself would admit it.

Have you or anyone else answered @kamski's thought experiment of what UK politicians/the media would do if UK-manufactured doses of the vaccine were being sent to the EU while the manufacturer told us that they couldn't fulfil our orders leaving us with a shortfall?

IanB2 said:

Charles said:

IanB2 said:

Charles said:

NickPalmer said:

The Broxtowe story is here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-56429122

Against that someone’s address is often public record. And he didn’t “threaten” he turned up and said “please take down the piece calling me anti-Semitic and islamsphobic”.

So rather than reach straight for lawyers he tried to resolve the problem amicably.

Why is that a bad thing?

Politicians get copies of the full electoral register - including details of people who have asked to keep their names off the public register - and the rules on what they can and can't use it for are very strict.

Yes. But you don’t know that’s where he got the address.

The guy's two complaints appear to be that he doesn't know how the MP's aide got his address, and that he felt intimidated. The latter suggests the exchange may have been less than amicable. The former, you're right that we don't know, but using the electoral register software is by far the easiest way for an MP's office to locate someone in their patch.

IanB2 said:

geoffw said:

Off topic (and possibly only of interest to rcs100). Though our car has barely been used for a year the insurance renewal was up significantly from last year. But I found an insurance that's based on a fixed cost for a parked car with added marginal cost per mile driven. It involves a device plugged into the ODB2 port (news to me) which is tucked away in the recesses near the pedals, which tells how far the car has been driven. I have a suspicion that the greatly reduced use of cars in the pandemic will stimulate this kind of insurance going forward (which our car hasn't been for a while!).

An individual not using their car, beyond a certain point, doesn't decrease risk, as very low mileage drivers includes very-occasional motorists, many of whom are elderly and less confident in their driving, who are higher accident risk. Similar to all the extra breakdowns you get when people who hardly ever drive set off to visit relatives at Christmas.

Premiums should have gone down across the board, due to the paucity of claims last year. Anecdote suggests this has happened at some insurers, but by no means all.

geoffw said:

Pulpstar said:

geoffw said:

IanB2 said:

Nigelb said:

One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.

Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder.
...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.

If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...

We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.

Further to which, the reason for alarm in the original cluster in Norway was the relative youth of those affected.

Perhaps the pause in our roll-out to younger cohorts is a godsend.

Got to be joking haven't you ?

Well yes.

Charles said:

alex_ said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1372456311611342848

I don't know. Perhaps hearing a senior politician saying "there is cause for concern"?

We’re from the government. We’re here to help.

OldKingCole said:

Well, well, well. Specifically stated on the Beeb that the delay is in Indian produced vaccine.

Nothing, nada, zilch to do with the EU.

IanB2 said:

Nigelb said:

One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.

Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder.
...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.

If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...

We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.

Further to which, the reason for alarm in the original cluster in Norway was the relative youth of those affected.

AnneJGP said:

IanB2 said:

Nigelb said:

One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.

Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder.
...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.

If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...

We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.

Further to which, the reason for alarm in the original cluster in Norway was the relative youth of those affected.

This is interesting because, AIUI, one of the problems with the initial trials was that only relatively few (8%?) people were over 65.

So the younger cohorts were well represented in the trial data.

Good morning, everyone.

OldKingCole said:

Well, well, well. Specifically stated on the Beeb that the delay is in Indian produced vaccine.

Nothing, nada, zilch to do with the EU.

Nigelb said:

IanB2 said:

Nigelb said:

One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.

Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder.
...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.

If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...

We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.

Further to which, the reason for alarm in the original cluster in Norway was the relative youth of those affected.

Note the opinion of the article author.
https://twitter.com/kakape/status/1372337151770263555

kle4 said:

Charles said:

alex_ said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1372456311611342848

I don't know. Perhaps hearing a senior politician saying "there is cause for concern"?

We’re from the government. We’re here to help.

That one is just plain dumb. I find it hard to believe even small staters buy that, it just comes across as disingenuous given all the things even they like the government doing.

Charles said:

dixiedean said:

Philip_Thompson said:

dixiedean said:

rottenborough said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1372313207906390016?s=20

I see Patel's leadership campaign rolls on.

In return for money.
How much exactly?
Given this lot's spaffing tendencies, the Turks will be rubbing their hands.

This is what I've been advocating since people started crossing the Channel in boats.

It is the best humanitarian thing to do. Crossing the Channel in dinghies is dangerous and only doing this will stop it.

This is also what the Aussies did, so there's good precedent and lessons to follow. Once the Aussies started doing this, the boats dried up quite quickly.

The likes of the Guardian would scream blue murder, but doing this will save lives.

Yes. Although in fairness Australia is a little further.

The optics of sending undesirables from the Uk to Australia wouldn’t be good though...

Nigelb said:

Roger said:

Nigelb said:

This is the best account I've seen on why European countries suspended use of the AZN vaccine.
I still think it was a serious error, but this does at least provide a rationale for authorities thinking the cases seen might have been incidences of rare side effects from the vaccine. (Though of course it's also possible they were rare - and known - side effects of Covid.)

The whole article is worth a read.

‘It’s a very special picture.’ Why vaccine safety experts put the brakes on AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/03/it-s-very-special-picture-why-vaccine-safety-experts-put-brakes-astrazeneca-s-covid-19
...vaccine safety officials say they did not take the decision lightly, and that symptoms seen in at least 13 patients, all between ages 20 and 50 and previously healthy, in at least five countries are more frequent than would be expected by chance. The patients, at least seven of whom have died, suffer from widespread blood clots, low platelet counts, and internal bleeding—not typical strokes or blood clots. “It’s a very special picture” of symptoms, says Steinar Madsen, medical director of the Norwegian Medicines Agency. “Our leading hematologist said he had never seen anything quite like it.”

A somewhat similar blood disorder, called immune thrombocytopenia (ITP), has been seen in at least 36 people in the United States who had received the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines against COVID-19, The New York Times recently reported. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration said it was investigating these cases, but also said the syndrome did not appear to be more common in vaccinated people, and immunizations in the United States have continued. But Madsen says the cases seen in Europe in recent weeks are distinct from ITP, which lacks the widespread blood clots seen in the European patients.

The United Kingdom, which has administered the AstraZeneca vaccine to more than 10 million people, has so far not reported similar clusters of unusual clotting or bleeding disorders...

Bravo! A thoughtful post at last.

(But are you sure it's not a simple case of twenty odd European countries in their fanatical jealously of our governments genius getting together to try to do us damage?)

In some respects some had already done that, with the unscientific denial of the vaccine to the over 65s - Macron's behaviour, for example, being particularly egregious.

But in this case, while probably a mistake, it's not completely irrational.

Nigelb said:

AnneJGP said:

IanB2 said:

Nigelb said:

One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.

Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder.
...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.

If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...

We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.

Further to which, the reason for alarm in the original cluster in Norway was the relative youth of those affected.

This is interesting because, AIUI, one of the problems with the initial trials was that only relatively few (8%?) people were over 65.

So the younger cohorts were well represented in the trial data.

Good morning, everyone.

There's no certainty about any of this.
These are very small numbers indeed - and the symptoms, while extremely rare, are known also to be associated with Covid itself - and while it's not unusual for rare side effects to show up after clinical trials, once a medication goes into general use, there is no conclusive evidence that these are vaccine side effects.

If I were due an AZN jab tomorrow, it wouldn't stop me getting it.

It will be interesting to see what the EMA has to say today.

tlg86 said:

Nigelb said:

Roger said:

Nigelb said:

This is the best account I've seen on why European countries suspended use of the AZN vaccine.
I still think it was a serious error, but this does at least provide a rationale for authorities thinking the cases seen might have been incidences of rare side effects from the vaccine. (Though of course it's also possible they were rare - and known - side effects of Covid.)

The whole article is worth a read.

‘It’s a very special picture.’ Why vaccine safety experts put the brakes on AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/03/it-s-very-special-picture-why-vaccine-safety-experts-put-brakes-astrazeneca-s-covid-19
...vaccine safety officials say they did not take the decision lightly, and that symptoms seen in at least 13 patients, all between ages 20 and 50 and previously healthy, in at least five countries are more frequent than would be expected by chance. The patients, at least seven of whom have died, suffer from widespread blood clots, low platelet counts, and internal bleeding—not typical strokes or blood clots. “It’s a very special picture” of symptoms, says Steinar Madsen, medical director of the Norwegian Medicines Agency. “Our leading hematologist said he had never seen anything quite like it.”

A somewhat similar blood disorder, called immune thrombocytopenia (ITP), has been seen in at least 36 people in the United States who had received the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines against COVID-19, The New York Times recently reported. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration said it was investigating these cases, but also said the syndrome did not appear to be more common in vaccinated people, and immunizations in the United States have continued. But Madsen says the cases seen in Europe in recent weeks are distinct from ITP, which lacks the widespread blood clots seen in the European patients.

The United Kingdom, which has administered the AstraZeneca vaccine to more than 10 million people, has so far not reported similar clusters of unusual clotting or bleeding disorders...

Bravo! A thoughtful post at last.

(But are you sure it's not a simple case of twenty odd European countries in their fanatical jealously of our governments genius getting together to try to do us damage?)

In some respects some had already done that, with the unscientific denial of the vaccine to the over 65s - Macron's behaviour, for example, being particularly egregious.

But in this case, while probably a mistake, it's not completely irrational.

Surely stopping it for all people is irrational. I appreciate that it would be somewhat ironic if having declared it unsuitable for over 65s, it turns out that there may be some risk for younger people (after all, the potential downside doesn’t need to be as large to be a problem for younger people who are much less likely to die from COVID), but they are killing a lot of older people at the moment with this decision.