In return for money. How much exactly? Given this lot's spaffing tendencies, the Turks will be rubbing their hands.
This is what I've been advocating since people started crossing the Channel in boats.
It is the best humanitarian thing to do. Crossing the Channel in dinghies is dangerous and only doing this will stop it.
This is also what the Aussies did, so there's good precedent and lessons to follow. Once the Aussies started doing this, the boats dried up quite quickly.
The likes of the Guardian would scream blue murder, but doing this will save lives.
Yes. Although in fairness Australia is a little further.
The optics of sending undesirables from the Uk to Australia wouldn’t be good though...
"Pfizer and AstraZeneca deny domestic coronavirus vaccine shortage
Drugs giants Pfizer and AstraZeneca have rejected an NHS claim that the UK is facing a COVID-19 vaccine shortage, insisting there is no threat to supplies. The two leading vaccine manufacturers both said they remain on course to meet their delivery commitments and denied they were facing disruption in supplies. Their defiant statements appeared to contradict a letter to vaccination centres from NHS England warning there will be a "significant reduction" in supplies next month."
Instinct is that both can be true. NHS could have been hoping for a scaling up in supplies to outpace the need for second jabs. “Shortfall” is being misrepresented as “reduction”.
Or it could just all be expectations management. Or simply somebody somewhere along the line made a miscalculation on supply versus need (most likely explanation...)
The uncertainty over this is awful. The government has to tell us what's going on.
I was wondering who was behind Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice pressure group. From a quick look at some of the organizers, its looks like another (non) Independent SAGE type group.
Its a great idea,. we can then find out why the the NHS packed all those people back off to nursing homes and why and what the failings of NHS were in helping us to a very large number of deaths. But we wont because no one wants to lift that rock.
We will blame the politicians 100%, not the wonks, or the doctors who advise and devise nor point out that we are a fat nation
With respect. That wouldn't be a "full" one. All those things would be good to know for next time. I know, I know.
“The next time” sending the elderly off to nursing homes could be the right decision. That’s the whole problem. It was (highly probably - hospitals were/are very dangerous places for non infected people) the wrong decision this time because of the particular features of Covid 19. Features which were clearly poorly understood at the time, and indeed still don’t be, given there is still a high focus on clean hands and surfaces which at best seems to be a minor effect on virus spread (and not nearly enough on fresh air and ventilation). A different virus, with different characteristics and maximum hospital capacity could be THE defining need.
People talk about the nursing home decisions as officials acting like callous murderers deliberately seeking to kill tens of thousands of people. A balanced enquiry has to look at why those decisions were made, and whether without the benefit of hindsight such decisions might, could or should have been different. There is an enormous risk that the battle against a future pandemic will be lost because eg. We use fighting COVID as the template and discover that we’re fighting some completely different.
In Scotland 2/3 of all cases of Covid were caught in hospital. Even those that infected care homes were infected there. I was extremely anxious about my wife being in hospital this week and that is before I saw the disgraceful conditions they were operating because hospitals are extremely dangerous places which, if you are vulnerable to Covid, you want to get out of as fast as possible.
Against that someone’s address is often public record. And he didn’t “threaten” he turned up and said “please take down the piece calling me anti-Semitic and islamsphobic”.
So rather than reach straight for lawyers he tried to resolve the problem amicably.
To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:
The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.
When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.
Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.
Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.
In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.
When did India assure its own population it wouldn't export any vaccine? They've exported 58 million doses - more than they've actually used in India
When the AZ vaccine was first licenced in India, there was officially an export ban put in place, then exemptions were made for Covax, then a big order from somewhere or other, and before you know it half have gone elsewhere. There’s now, understandably, some pushback on the politicians, who are being told to prioritise Indians over exports.
Of course, IF the Indian government has kept back vaccines destined for the UK I expect lots of calls on PB.com to nuke India.
To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:
The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.
When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.
Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.
Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.
In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.
When did India assure its own population it wouldn't export any vaccine? They've exported 58 million doses - more than they've actually used in India
When the AZ vaccine was first licenced in India, there was officially an export ban put in place, then exemptions were made for Covax, then a big order from somewhere or other, and before you know it half have gone elsewhere. There’s now, understandably, some pushback on the politicians, who are being told to prioritise Indians over exports.
Of course, IF the Indian government has kept back vaccines destined for the UK I expect lots of calls on PB.com to nuke India.
"Pfizer and AstraZeneca deny domestic coronavirus vaccine shortage
Drugs giants Pfizer and AstraZeneca have rejected an NHS claim that the UK is facing a COVID-19 vaccine shortage, insisting there is no threat to supplies. The two leading vaccine manufacturers both said they remain on course to meet their delivery commitments and denied they were facing disruption in supplies. Their defiant statements appeared to contradict a letter to vaccination centres from NHS England warning there will be a "significant reduction" in supplies next month."
Instinct is that both can be true. NHS could have been hoping for a scaling up in supplies to outpace the need for second jabs. “Shortfall” is being misrepresented as “reduction”.
Or it could just all be expectations management. Or simply somebody somewhere along the line made a miscalculation on supply versus need (most likely explanation...)
Miscalculation sounds about right. And 'allowing' the politicians to over-promise.
I'm now in the approximate time range for my second Pfizer one.
And finally it's looks like a better, and somewhat warmer, day here.
In return for money. How much exactly? Given this lot's spaffing tendencies, the Turks will be rubbing their hands.
This is what I've been advocating since people started crossing the Channel in boats.
It is the best humanitarian thing to do. Crossing the Channel in dinghies is dangerous and only doing this will stop it.
This is also what the Aussies did, so there's good precedent and lessons to follow. Once the Aussies started doing this, the boats dried up quite quickly.
The likes of the Guardian would scream blue murder, but doing this will save lives.
Yes. Although in fairness Australia is a little further.
The optics of sending undesirables from the Uk to Australia wouldn’t be good though...
Absolutely, their cricket team is strong enough already.
Some trouble brewing in @NickPalmer old patch of Broxtowe with Con MP staff member.
Hadn't heard about that but have looked it up. Matt Turpin (the blogger whom the staffer apparently visited at his home) is a well-known local figure who has been doing his Beestonia blog for about 15 years. He writes really well and is independent of party, but he's generally anti-Tory. There is a GDPR question about how the staff member got Matt's private address as well as the obviously undesirable idea of turning up at a journalist's home to demand that he withdraw articles.
It would be pretty easy to look up the address using the campaign s/w which will have the electrol roll loaded. I assume such non campaigning use would be illegal? If I knew a person lived in a particular constituency and their name wasn't too common I know I could do it very easily.
To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:
The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.
When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.
Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.
Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.
In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.
When did India assure its own population it wouldn't export any vaccine? They've exported 58 million doses - more than they've actually used in India
When the AZ vaccine was first licenced in India, there was officially an export ban put in place, then exemptions were made for Covax, then a big order from somewhere or other, and before you know it half have gone elsewhere. There’s now, understandably, some pushback on the politicians, who are being told to prioritise Indians over exports.
Of course, IF the Indian government has kept back vaccines destined for the UK I expect lots of calls on PB.com to nuke India.
What an idiotic comment.
Why idiotic? Now I don't think the Indian government is holding back exports, but that is what some seem to be suggesting. Nor am I in favour of anyone nuking anyone. People were calling on the UK to nuke Europe yesterday, so it would just be consistent.
How would it work though? I thought it would only be possible to do so with social housing. Surely they can’t prevent people from buying houses and living where they like?
That will be inflammatory for many.
Haven't we decided to treat this story with extreme caution, Disclose.tv being a fake news site?
Any politician doing the Double-Thumbs Thing invariably looks dumb. Trump did it. Boris does it. Only Tricky Dickie Nixon managed a worse look with the Double-V-for-Victory thing. Urgh.
Knock it off, Boris.
It’s the juxtaposition of the photo and the headline...
Any politician doing the Double-Thumbs Thing invariably looks dumb. Trump did it. Boris does it. Only Tricky Dickie Nixon managed a worse look with the Double-V-for-Victory thing. Urgh.
Knock it off, Boris.
It’s the juxtaposition of the photo and the headline...
Oh I know, but it's a dumb pose just because it lends itself to such juxtaposition.
I was wondering who was behind Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice pressure group. From a quick look at some of the organizers, its looks like another (non) Independent SAGE type group.
Its a great idea,. we can then find out why the the NHS packed all those people back off to nursing homes and why and what the failings of NHS were in helping us to a very large number of deaths. But we wont because no one wants to lift that rock.
We will blame the politicians 100%, not the wonks, or the doctors who advise and devise nor point out that we are a fat nation
With respect. That wouldn't be a "full" one. All those things would be good to know for next time. I know, I know.
“The next time” sending the elderly off to nursing homes could be the right decision. That’s the whole problem. It was (highly probably - hospitals were/are very dangerous places for non infected people) the wrong decision this time because of the particular features of Covid 19. Features which were clearly poorly understood at the time, and indeed still don’t be, given there is still a high focus on clean hands and surfaces which at best seems to be a minor effect on virus spread (and not nearly enough on fresh air and ventilation). A different virus, with different characteristics and maximum hospital capacity could be THE defining need.
People talk about the nursing home decisions as officials acting like callous murderers deliberately seeking to kill tens of thousands of people. A balanced enquiry has to look at why those decisions were made, and whether without the benefit of hindsight such decisions might, could or should have been different. There is an enormous risk that the battle against a future pandemic will be lost because eg. We use fighting COVID as the template and discover that we’re fighting some completely different.
In Scotland 2/3 of all cases of Covid were caught in hospital. Even those that infected care homes were infected there. I was extremely anxious about my wife being in hospital this week and that is before I saw the disgraceful conditions they were operating because hospitals are extremely dangerous places which, if you are vulnerable to Covid, you want to get out of as fast as possible.
Well quite - the decisions on care homes probably led to thousands of deaths in care homes that might not otherwise have happened. But will have saved many lives of anyone who manage to get out early uninfected.
I would hope we don't respond by doing that however a government statement along the lines of
"We are deeply saddened by the eu actions and while we could reciprocate by blocking raw material supplies we are a moral country that doesn't consider harming eu citizens is right just because their politicians wish to act like jilted lovers"
I was wondering who was behind Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice pressure group. From a quick look at some of the organizers, its looks like another (non) Independent SAGE type group.
Its a great idea,. we can then find out why the the NHS packed all those people back off to nursing homes and why and what the failings of NHS were in helping us to a very large number of deaths. But we wont because no one wants to lift that rock.
We will blame the politicians 100%, not the wonks, or the doctors who advise and devise nor point out that we are a fat nation
With respect. That wouldn't be a "full" one. All those things would be good to know for next time. I know, I know.
“The next time” sending the elderly off to nursing homes could be the right decision. That’s the whole problem. It was (highly probably - hospitals were/are very dangerous places for non infected people) the wrong decision this time because of the particular features of Covid 19. Features which were clearly poorly understood at the time, and indeed still don’t be, given there is still a high focus on clean hands and surfaces which at best seems to be a minor effect on virus spread (and not nearly enough on fresh air and ventilation). A different virus, with different characteristics and maximum hospital capacity could be THE defining need.
People talk about the nursing home decisions as officials acting like callous murderers deliberately seeking to kill tens of thousands of people. A balanced enquiry has to look at why those decisions were made, and whether without the benefit of hindsight such decisions might, could or should have been different. There is an enormous risk that the battle against a future pandemic will be lost because eg. We use fighting COVID as the template and discover that we’re fighting some completely different.
In Scotland 2/3 of all cases of Covid were caught in hospital. Even those that infected care homes were infected there. I was extremely anxious about my wife being in hospital this week and that is before I saw the disgraceful conditions they were operating because hospitals are extremely dangerous places which, if you are vulnerable to Covid, you want to get out of as fast as possible.
The key question was whether the discharges were motivated by the interests of the patient or those of the organisation. If people known to be infected were discharged to free beds in hospital then that was not in the interest of the patient.
To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:
The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.
When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.
Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.
Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.
In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.
When did India assure its own population it wouldn't export any vaccine? They've exported 58 million doses - more than they've actually used in India
When the AZ vaccine was first licenced in India, there was officially an export ban put in place, then exemptions were made for Covax, then a big order from somewhere or other, and before you know it half have gone elsewhere. There’s now, understandably, some pushback on the politicians, who are being told to prioritise Indians over exports.
Of course, IF the Indian government has kept back vaccines destined for the UK I expect lots of calls on PB.com to nuke India.
What an idiotic comment.
Why idiotic? Now I don't think the Indian government is holding back exports, but that is what some seem to be suggesting. Nor am I in favour of anyone nuking anyone. People were calling on the UK to nuke Europe yesterday, so it would just be consistent.
India has nukes - we aren't that stupid.
The interesting bit is that I doubt anyone on here was aware that we were supposed to be receiving a batch of vaccinations from India - I suspect even MaxPB wasn't aware of that fact...
I was wondering who was behind Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice pressure group. From a quick look at some of the organizers, its looks like another (non) Independent SAGE type group.
Its a great idea,. we can then find out why the the NHS packed all those people back off to nursing homes and why and what the failings of NHS were in helping us to a very large number of deaths. But we wont because no one wants to lift that rock.
We will blame the politicians 100%, not the wonks, or the doctors who advise and devise nor point out that we are a fat nation
With respect. That wouldn't be a "full" one. All those things would be good to know for next time. I know, I know.
“The next time” sending the elderly off to nursing homes could be the right decision. That’s the whole problem. It was (highly probably - hospitals were/are very dangerous places for non infected people) the wrong decision this time because of the particular features of Covid 19. Features which were clearly poorly understood at the time, and indeed still don’t be, given there is still a high focus on clean hands and surfaces which at best seems to be a minor effect on virus spread (and not nearly enough on fresh air and ventilation). A different virus, with different characteristics and maximum hospital capacity could be THE defining need.
People talk about the nursing home decisions as officials acting like callous murderers deliberately seeking to kill tens of thousands of people. A balanced enquiry has to look at why those decisions were made, and whether without the benefit of hindsight such decisions might, could or should have been different. There is an enormous risk that the battle against a future pandemic will be lost because eg. We use fighting COVID as the template and discover that we’re fighting some completely different.
In Scotland 2/3 of all cases of Covid were caught in hospital. Even those that infected care homes were infected there. I was extremely anxious about my wife being in hospital this week and that is before I saw the disgraceful conditions they were operating because hospitals are extremely dangerous places which, if you are vulnerable to Covid, you want to get out of as fast as possible.
The key question was whether the discharges were motivated by the interests of the patient or those of the organisation? If people known to be infected were discharged to free beds in hospital then that was not in the interest of the patient.
My memory of how it was reported was not (in most cases anyway) that people known to be infected were discharged. But simply that not enough care was taken to ensure that they weren't - and on the back of confidence on official guidance for likely infectivity (particularly absent a test) that was woefully inadequate. The virus had simply spread far further and was far more infectious over a far greater period, than those making the decisions and constructing government guidance had realised.
And even if it were realised that in some cases infected people would be released, the numbers that were and the extent to which they represented a danger to others was woefully underestimated.
But, of course, that is for the inquiry to determine.
"Pfizer and AstraZeneca deny domestic coronavirus vaccine shortage
Drugs giants Pfizer and AstraZeneca have rejected an NHS claim that the UK is facing a COVID-19 vaccine shortage, insisting there is no threat to supplies. The two leading vaccine manufacturers both said they remain on course to meet their delivery commitments and denied they were facing disruption in supplies. Their defiant statements appeared to contradict a letter to vaccination centres from NHS England warning there will be a "significant reduction" in supplies next month."
Instinct is that both can be true. NHS could have been hoping for a scaling up in supplies to outpace the need for second jabs. “Shortfall” is being misrepresented as “reduction”.
Or it could just all be expectations management. Or simply somebody somewhere along the line made a miscalculation on supply versus need (most likely explanation...)
The uncertainty over this is awful. The government has to tell us what's going on.
I feel compelled to repeat something i wrote yesterday (vanity about quality of my contributions)
"Here's the thing though. This is hugely irresponsible reporting as usual by journalists (no surprise to see LauraK at the forefront) desperate to break a story before being in control of the facts.
So you get a leaked letter about a slow down in supply and/or the vaccine programme (it's not clear). How about doing some proper journalism and getting a complete picture before splashing the story as "breaking news" on the BBC? And then putting the Health Secretary on the spot to come out with instant comments that will clearly not be complete and can be packaged however you want them.
As it is she's "broken" the story, and is now left coming out with random tweets trying to fill in the gaps to try and establish whether this actually is or isn't a big deal."
Or insist that the Government is fully transparent, despite there be many potentially good reasons for them not wanting to be so.
To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:
The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.
When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.
Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.
Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.
In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.
Import from India to the EU of course isn’t allowed, as per the EU-AZ contract...
Isn't it?
But the EU have been inspecting SII vaccine production facilities with a view to importing vaccine.
I recall a clause allowing AZ to use other facilities apart from the 4 identified, with EU agreement, but not one the other way.
I was wondering who was behind Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice pressure group. From a quick look at some of the organizers, its looks like another (non) Independent SAGE type group.
Its a great idea,. we can then find out why the the NHS packed all those people back off to nursing homes and why and what the failings of NHS were in helping us to a very large number of deaths. But we wont because no one wants to lift that rock.
We will blame the politicians 100%, not the wonks, or the doctors who advise and devise nor point out that we are a fat nation
With respect. That wouldn't be a "full" one. All those things would be good to know for next time. I know, I know.
“The next time” sending the elderly off to nursing homes could be the right decision. That’s the whole problem. It was (highly probably - hospitals were/are very dangerous places for non infected people) the wrong decision this time because of the particular features of Covid 19. Features which were clearly poorly understood at the time, and indeed still don’t be, given there is still a high focus on clean hands and surfaces which at best seems to be a minor effect on virus spread (and not nearly enough on fresh air and ventilation). A different virus, with different characteristics and maximum hospital capacity could be THE defining need.
People talk about the nursing home decisions as officials acting like callous murderers deliberately seeking to kill tens of thousands of people. A balanced enquiry has to look at why those decisions were made, and whether without the benefit of hindsight such decisions might, could or should have been different. There is an enormous risk that the battle against a future pandemic will be lost because eg. We use fighting COVID as the template and discover that we’re fighting some completely different.
Judgements were made, some proved to be wrong, and it would be worth understanding why.
My instinct is that the reaction to the Italian crisis with its overflowing hospitals triggered an over-reaction here, with everything subordinated to the objective of avoiding hospitals collapsing, even where it had the effect of pushing up overall infections and mortality. Hence all the early focus on creating extra pop up hospitals out of nowhere, which in the event were hardly used, while other more critical priorities like proper PPE and test and trace were neglected.
Indeed - but inquiries (which have to happen) are very emotive things, because of the two, largely incompatible drivers behind them. One being to learn lessons (and the right ones), and the other being “people must be held accountable”.
Indeed. The initial enquiries need to be run along the lines of a transport accident enquiry, looking at how decisions were made, what led to the holes in the Swiss cheese lining up on this occasion, and - most importantly - what can we learn in both the short term and long term, to prevent the problems that occurred from happening in the future.
A proper inquiry, of course, should also look at what went right as well as what went wrong.
To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:
The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.
When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.
Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.
Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.
In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.
Import from India to the EU of course isn’t allowed, as per the EU-AZ contract...
Isn't it?
But the EU have been inspecting SII vaccine production facilities with a view to importing vaccine.
I recall a clause allowing AZ to use other facilities apart from the 4 identified, with EU agreement, but not one the other way.
Apologies - clarification - The EU-AZ contract said that production could be done in the EU ("including the UK") without additional regulatory approvals.
Production outside of the EU could be done, but would require additional seeking and granting of permissions. Which means time.
To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:
The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.
When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.
Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.
Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.
In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.
When did India assure its own population it wouldn't export any vaccine? They've exported 58 million doses - more than they've actually used in India
When the AZ vaccine was first licenced in India, there was officially an export ban put in place, then exemptions were made for Covax, then a big order from somewhere or other, and before you know it half have gone elsewhere. There’s now, understandably, some pushback on the politicians, who are being told to prioritise Indians over exports.
Of course, IF the Indian government has kept back vaccines destined for the UK I expect lots of calls on PB.com to nuke India.
What an idiotic comment.
Why idiotic? Now I don't think the Indian government is holding back exports, but that is what some seem to be suggesting. Nor am I in favour of anyone nuking anyone. People were calling on the UK to nuke Europe yesterday, so it would just be consistent.
India has nukes - we aren't that stupid.
The interesting bit is that I doubt anyone on here was aware that we were supposed to be receiving a batch of vaccinations from India - I suspect even MaxPB wasn't aware of that fact...
OK got it: 1) it isn't stupid to nuke places that don't have nukes 2) nobody else in Europe has nukes
thanks for clearing that up.
I think this site has become way to nut-infested for me.
I was wondering who was behind Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice pressure group. From a quick look at some of the organizers, its looks like another (non) Independent SAGE type group.
Its a great idea,. we can then find out why the the NHS packed all those people back off to nursing homes and why and what the failings of NHS were in helping us to a very large number of deaths. But we wont because no one wants to lift that rock.
We will blame the politicians 100%, not the wonks, or the doctors who advise and devise nor point out that we are a fat nation
With respect. That wouldn't be a "full" one. All those things would be good to know for next time. I know, I know.
“The next time” sending the elderly off to nursing homes could be the right decision. That’s the whole problem. It was (highly probably - hospitals were/are very dangerous places for non infected people) the wrong decision this time because of the particular features of Covid 19. Features which were clearly poorly understood at the time, and indeed still don’t be, given there is still a high focus on clean hands and surfaces which at best seems to be a minor effect on virus spread (and not nearly enough on fresh air and ventilation). A different virus, with different characteristics and maximum hospital capacity could be THE defining need.
People talk about the nursing home decisions as officials acting like callous murderers deliberately seeking to kill tens of thousands of people. A balanced enquiry has to look at why those decisions were made, and whether without the benefit of hindsight such decisions might, could or should have been different. There is an enormous risk that the battle against a future pandemic will be lost because eg. We use fighting COVID as the template and discover that we’re fighting some completely different.
In Scotland 2/3 of all cases of Covid were caught in hospital. Even those that infected care homes were infected there. I was extremely anxious about my wife being in hospital this week and that is before I saw the disgraceful conditions they were operating because hospitals are extremely dangerous places which, if you are vulnerable to Covid, you want to get out of as fast as possible.
The key question was whether the discharges were motivated by the interests of the patient or those of the organisation? If people known to be infected were discharged to free beds in hospital then that was not in the interest of the patient.
My memory of how it was reported was not (in most cases anyway) that people known to be infected were discharged. But simply that not enough care was taken to ensure that they weren't - and on the back of confidence on official guidance for likely infectivity (particularly absent a test) that was woefully inadequate. The virus had simply spread far further and was far more infectious over a far greater period, than those making the decisions and constructing government guidance had realised.
And even if it were realised that in some cases infected people would be released, the numbers that were and the extent to which they represented a danger to others was woefully underestimated.
But, of course, that is for the inquiry to determine.
Discharges and transfers, often ultimately handled in the administrative sphere and target/convenience driven, and which may or may not bear any resemblance to the initial direction given by clinical staff, have been a mess for far longer than COVID. Shining a light on that, even if another disease / another approach applies, is necessary.
Any admin staff in charge of such decisions should be answerable to a professional body on an individual level, as doctors and nurses are.
To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:
The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.
When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.
Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.
Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.
In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.
When did India assure its own population it wouldn't export any vaccine? They've exported 58 million doses - more than they've actually used in India
When the AZ vaccine was first licenced in India, there was officially an export ban put in place, then exemptions were made for Covax, then a big order from somewhere or other, and before you know it half have gone elsewhere. There’s now, understandably, some pushback on the politicians, who are being told to prioritise Indians over exports.
Of course, IF the Indian government has kept back vaccines destined for the UK I expect lots of calls on PB.com to nuke India.
What an idiotic comment.
Why idiotic? Now I don't think the Indian government is holding back exports, but that is what some seem to be suggesting. Nor am I in favour of anyone nuking anyone. People were calling on the UK to nuke Europe yesterday, so it would just be consistent.
India has nukes - we aren't that stupid.
The interesting bit is that I doubt anyone on here was aware that we were supposed to be receiving a batch of vaccinations from India - I suspect even MaxPB wasn't aware of that fact...
OK got it: 1) it isn't stupid to nuke places that don't have nukes 2) nobody else in Europe has nukes
thanks for clearing that up.
I think this site has become way to nut-infested for me.
I don't think anyone on this site or elsewhere seriously suggested nuking Europe.
It's Europe that has lost its mind and is acting hysterically not the UK. Not that a partisan hack like yourself would admit it.
I was wondering who was behind Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice pressure group. From a quick look at some of the organizers, its looks like another (non) Independent SAGE type group.
Its a great idea,. we can then find out why the the NHS packed all those people back off to nursing homes and why and what the failings of NHS were in helping us to a very large number of deaths. But we wont because no one wants to lift that rock.
We will blame the politicians 100%, not the wonks, or the doctors who advise and devise nor point out that we are a fat nation
With respect. That wouldn't be a "full" one. All those things would be good to know for next time. I know, I know.
“The next time” sending the elderly off to nursing homes could be the right decision. That’s the whole problem. It was (highly probably - hospitals were/are very dangerous places for non infected people) the wrong decision this time because of the particular features of Covid 19. Features which were clearly poorly understood at the time, and indeed still don’t be, given there is still a high focus on clean hands and surfaces which at best seems to be a minor effect on virus spread (and not nearly enough on fresh air and ventilation). A different virus, with different characteristics and maximum hospital capacity could be THE defining need.
People talk about the nursing home decisions as officials acting like callous murderers deliberately seeking to kill tens of thousands of people. A balanced enquiry has to look at why those decisions were made, and whether without the benefit of hindsight such decisions might, could or should have been different. There is an enormous risk that the battle against a future pandemic will be lost because eg. We use fighting COVID as the template and discover that we’re fighting some completely different.
In Scotland 2/3 of all cases of Covid were caught in hospital. Even those that infected care homes were infected there. I was extremely anxious about my wife being in hospital this week and that is before I saw the disgraceful conditions they were operating because hospitals are extremely dangerous places which, if you are vulnerable to Covid, you want to get out of as fast as possible.
The key question was whether the discharges were motivated by the interests of the patient or those of the organisation? If people known to be infected were discharged to free beds in hospital then that was not in the interest of the patient.
My memory of how it was reported was not (in most cases anyway) that people known to be infected were discharged. But simply that not enough care was taken to ensure that they weren't - and on the back of confidence on official guidance for likely infectivity (particularly absent a test) that was woefully inadequate. The virus had simply spread far further and was far more infectious over a far greater period, than those making the decisions and constructing government guidance had realised.
And even if it were realised that in some cases infected people would be released, the numbers that were and the extent to which they represented a danger to others was woefully underestimated.
But, of course, that is for the inquiry to determine.
Discharges and transfers, often ultimately handled in the administrative sphere and target/convenience driven, and which may or may not bear any resemblance to the initial direction given by clinical staff, have been a mess for far longer than COVID. Shining a light on that, even if another disease / another approach applies, is necessary.
Any admin staff in charge of such decisions should be answerable to a professional body on an individual level, as doctors and nurses are.
True, although isn't it often the case that the problem with discharge isn't that it is inappropriate? It is that it is delayed far longer than necessary because of the need to ensure that the discharged individual both has somewhere to go, and that the place they are going meets the medical requirements of their discharge (eg. so care packages and the like have to be organised first)
"Pfizer and AstraZeneca deny domestic coronavirus vaccine shortage
Drugs giants Pfizer and AstraZeneca have rejected an NHS claim that the UK is facing a COVID-19 vaccine shortage, insisting there is no threat to supplies. The two leading vaccine manufacturers both said they remain on course to meet their delivery commitments and denied they were facing disruption in supplies. Their defiant statements appeared to contradict a letter to vaccination centres from NHS England warning there will be a "significant reduction" in supplies next month."
Instinct is that both can be true. NHS could have been hoping for a scaling up in supplies to outpace the need for second jabs. “Shortfall” is being misrepresented as “reduction”.
Or it could just all be expectations management. Or simply somebody somewhere along the line made a miscalculation on supply versus need (most likely explanation...)
The uncertainty over this is awful. The government has to tell us what's going on.
I feel compelled to repeat something i wrote yesterday (vanity about quality of my contributions)
"Here's the thing though. This is hugely irresponsible reporting as usual by journalists (no surprise to see LauraK at the forefront) desperate to break a story before being in control of the facts.
So you get a leaked letter about a slow down in supply and/or the vaccine programme (it's not clear). How about doing some proper journalism and getting a complete picture before splashing the story as "breaking news" on the BBC? And then putting the Health Secretary on the spot to come out with instant comments that will clearly not be complete and can be packaged however you want them.
As it is she's "broken" the story, and is now left coming out with random tweets trying to fill in the gaps to try and establish whether this actually is or isn't a big deal."
Or insist that the Government is fully transparent, despite there be many potentially good reasons for them not wanting to be so.
Today's Times headline disingenuously portrays correlation as causation...
"Setback for Britain’s vaccine rollout. Under-50s have programme paused as EU calls for ‘fair share’"
To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:
The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.
When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.
Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.
Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.
In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.
When did India assure its own population it wouldn't export any vaccine? They've exported 58 million doses - more than they've actually used in India
When the AZ vaccine was first licenced in India, there was officially an export ban put in place, then exemptions were made for Covax, then a big order from somewhere or other, and before you know it half have gone elsewhere. There’s now, understandably, some pushback on the politicians, who are being told to prioritise Indians over exports.
Of course, IF the Indian government has kept back vaccines destined for the UK I expect lots of calls on PB.com to nuke India.
What an idiotic comment.
You obviously haven't been reading PB lately. It's as sound as most other posts coming from this Johnson fansite. When you have a Prime minister without value or values it's bound to permeate everything.
I was wondering who was behind Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice pressure group. From a quick look at some of the organizers, its looks like another (non) Independent SAGE type group.
Its a great idea,. we can then find out why the the NHS packed all those people back off to nursing homes and why and what the failings of NHS were in helping us to a very large number of deaths. But we wont because no one wants to lift that rock.
We will blame the politicians 100%, not the wonks, or the doctors who advise and devise nor point out that we are a fat nation
With respect. That wouldn't be a "full" one. All those things would be good to know for next time. I know, I know.
“The next time” sending the elderly off to nursing homes could be the right decision. That’s the whole problem. It was (highly probably - hospitals were/are very dangerous places for non infected people) the wrong decision this time because of the particular features of Covid 19. Features which were clearly poorly understood at the time, and indeed still don’t be, given there is still a high focus on clean hands and surfaces which at best seems to be a minor effect on virus spread (and not nearly enough on fresh air and ventilation). A different virus, with different characteristics and maximum hospital capacity could be THE defining need.
People talk about the nursing home decisions as officials acting like callous murderers deliberately seeking to kill tens of thousands of people. A balanced enquiry has to look at why those decisions were made, and whether without the benefit of hindsight such decisions might, could or should have been different. There is an enormous risk that the battle against a future pandemic will be lost because eg. We use fighting COVID as the template and discover that we’re fighting some completely different.
In Scotland 2/3 of all cases of Covid were caught in hospital. Even those that infected care homes were infected there. I was extremely anxious about my wife being in hospital this week and that is before I saw the disgraceful conditions they were operating because hospitals are extremely dangerous places which, if you are vulnerable to Covid, you want to get out of as fast as possible.
The key question was whether the discharges were motivated by the interests of the patient or those of the organisation? If people known to be infected were discharged to free beds in hospital then that was not in the interest of the patient.
My memory of how it was reported was not (in most cases anyway) that people known to be infected were discharged. But simply that not enough care was taken to ensure that they weren't - and on the back of confidence on official guidance for likely infectivity (particularly absent a test) that was woefully inadequate. The virus had simply spread far further and was far more infectious over a far greater period, than those making the decisions and constructing government guidance had realised.
And even if it were realised that in some cases infected people would be released, the numbers that were and the extent to which they represented a danger to others was woefully underestimated.
But, of course, that is for the inquiry to determine.
The government guidance was quite clear in directing all those who were not critical patients - even if infected - should be discharged.
To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:
The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.
When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.
Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.
Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.
In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.
When did India assure its own population it wouldn't export any vaccine? They've exported 58 million doses - more than they've actually used in India
When the AZ vaccine was first licenced in India, there was officially an export ban put in place, then exemptions were made for Covax, then a big order from somewhere or other, and before you know it half have gone elsewhere. There’s now, understandably, some pushback on the politicians, who are being told to prioritise Indians over exports.
Of course, IF the Indian government has kept back vaccines destined for the UK I expect lots of calls on PB.com to nuke India.
What an idiotic comment.
Why idiotic? Now I don't think the Indian government is holding back exports, but that is what some seem to be suggesting. Nor am I in favour of anyone nuking anyone. People were calling on the UK to nuke Europe yesterday, so it would just be consistent.
India has nukes - we aren't that stupid.
The interesting bit is that I doubt anyone on here was aware that we were supposed to be receiving a batch of vaccinations from India - I suspect even MaxPB wasn't aware of that fact...
OK got it: 1) it isn't stupid to nuke places that don't have nukes 2) nobody else in Europe has nukes
thanks for clearing that up.
I think this site has become way to nut-infested for me.
I don't think anyone on this site or elsewhere seriously suggested nuking Europe.
It's Europe that has lost its mind and is acting hysterically not the UK. Not that a partisan hack like yourself would admit it.
Frankly this debate is asinine. Kamski made the reasonable suggestion that if supply shortages were down to the actions of the Indian government then there would (in all logic) be "calls" on here to "nuke India". He hardly suggested that people would be genuinely arguing for such an action. Anymore that people calling (as they do and have done) for "nuking Europe" is a genuine belief that such a course of action is appropriate (possibly excluding HYUFD!). It's a comment on kneejerk hysteria, without dispassionate consideration of the facts.
"Pfizer and AstraZeneca deny domestic coronavirus vaccine shortage
Drugs giants Pfizer and AstraZeneca have rejected an NHS claim that the UK is facing a COVID-19 vaccine shortage, insisting there is no threat to supplies. The two leading vaccine manufacturers both said they remain on course to meet their delivery commitments and denied they were facing disruption in supplies. Their defiant statements appeared to contradict a letter to vaccination centres from NHS England warning there will be a "significant reduction" in supplies next month."
Instinct is that both can be true. NHS could have been hoping for a scaling up in supplies to outpace the need for second jabs. “Shortfall” is being misrepresented as “reduction”.
Or it could just all be expectations management. Or simply somebody somewhere along the line made a miscalculation on supply versus need (most likely explanation...)
The uncertainty over this is awful. The government has to tell us what's going on.
I feel compelled to repeat something i wrote yesterday (vanity about quality of my contributions)
"Here's the thing though. This is hugely irresponsible reporting as usual by journalists (no surprise to see LauraK at the forefront) desperate to break a story before being in control of the facts.
So you get a leaked letter about a slow down in supply and/or the vaccine programme (it's not clear). How about doing some proper journalism and getting a complete picture before splashing the story as "breaking news" on the BBC? And then putting the Health Secretary on the spot to come out with instant comments that will clearly not be complete and can be packaged however you want them.
As it is she's "broken" the story, and is now left coming out with random tweets trying to fill in the gaps to try and establish whether this actually is or isn't a big deal."
Or insist that the Government is fully transparent, despite there be many potentially good reasons for them not wanting to be so.
Today's Times headline disingenuously portrays correlation as causation...
"Setback for Britain’s vaccine rollout. Under-50s have programme paused as EU calls for ‘fair share’"
As I said yesterday - everyone was going to put the two things together regardless of whether they are connected or not.
Given the timing of the EU's story followed by the disappearance of expected vaccines it was obvious that people would combine the 2 things together.
To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:
The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.
When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.
Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.
Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.
In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.
When did India assure its own population it wouldn't export any vaccine? They've exported 58 million doses - more than they've actually used in India
When the AZ vaccine was first licenced in India, there was officially an export ban put in place, then exemptions were made for Covax, then a big order from somewhere or other, and before you know it half have gone elsewhere. There’s now, understandably, some pushback on the politicians, who are being told to prioritise Indians over exports.
Of course, IF the Indian government has kept back vaccines destined for the UK I expect lots of calls on PB.com to nuke India.
What an idiotic comment.
Why idiotic? Now I don't think the Indian government is holding back exports, but that is what some seem to be suggesting. Nor am I in favour of anyone nuking anyone. People were calling on the UK to nuke Europe yesterday, so it would just be consistent.
India has nukes - we aren't that stupid.
The interesting bit is that I doubt anyone on here was aware that we were supposed to be receiving a batch of vaccinations from India - I suspect even MaxPB wasn't aware of that fact...
I’m sure I saw it reported a month or so back. But was definitely aware of it for a while
I was wondering who was behind Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice pressure group. From a quick look at some of the organizers, its looks like another (non) Independent SAGE type group.
Its a great idea,. we can then find out why the the NHS packed all those people back off to nursing homes and why and what the failings of NHS were in helping us to a very large number of deaths. But we wont because no one wants to lift that rock.
We will blame the politicians 100%, not the wonks, or the doctors who advise and devise nor point out that we are a fat nation
With respect. That wouldn't be a "full" one. All those things would be good to know for next time. I know, I know.
“The next time” sending the elderly off to nursing homes could be the right decision. That’s the whole problem. It was (highly probably - hospitals were/are very dangerous places for non infected people) the wrong decision this time because of the particular features of Covid 19. Features which were clearly poorly understood at the time, and indeed still don’t be, given there is still a high focus on clean hands and surfaces which at best seems to be a minor effect on virus spread (and not nearly enough on fresh air and ventilation). A different virus, with different characteristics and maximum hospital capacity could be THE defining need.
People talk about the nursing home decisions as officials acting like callous murderers deliberately seeking to kill tens of thousands of people. A balanced enquiry has to look at why those decisions were made, and whether without the benefit of hindsight such decisions might, could or should have been different. There is an enormous risk that the battle against a future pandemic will be lost because eg. We use fighting COVID as the template and discover that we’re fighting some completely different.
In Scotland 2/3 of all cases of Covid were caught in hospital. Even those that infected care homes were infected there. I was extremely anxious about my wife being in hospital this week and that is before I saw the disgraceful conditions they were operating because hospitals are extremely dangerous places which, if you are vulnerable to Covid, you want to get out of as fast as possible.
The key question was whether the discharges were motivated by the interests of the patient or those of the organisation? If people known to be infected were discharged to free beds in hospital then that was not in the interest of the patient.
My memory of how it was reported was not (in most cases anyway) that people known to be infected were discharged. But simply that not enough care was taken to ensure that they weren't - and on the back of confidence on official guidance for likely infectivity (particularly absent a test) that was woefully inadequate. The virus had simply spread far further and was far more infectious over a far greater period, than those making the decisions and constructing government guidance had realised.
And even if it were realised that in some cases infected people would be released, the numbers that were and the extent to which they represented a danger to others was woefully underestimated.
But, of course, that is for the inquiry to determine.
The enquiry calls are focusing on the need for individual case consideration.
My mum was DNR'd without my knowledge or consultation in 2019, but the point was made that Doctors have that right in individual cases. That is why it is "consultation" - relatives advise, Drs decide. I was in possession of full Power of Medical Attorney at the time.
This is the best account I've seen on why European countries suspended use of the AZN vaccine. I still think it was a serious error, but this does at least provide a rationale for authorities thinking the cases seen might have been incidences of rare side effects from the vaccine. (Though of course it's also possible they were rare - and known - side effects of Covid.)
The whole article is worth a read.
‘It’s a very special picture.’ Why vaccine safety experts put the brakes on AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/03/it-s-very-special-picture-why-vaccine-safety-experts-put-brakes-astrazeneca-s-covid-19 ...vaccine safety officials say they did not take the decision lightly, and that symptoms seen in at least 13 patients, all between ages 20 and 50 and previously healthy, in at least five countries are more frequent than would be expected by chance. The patients, at least seven of whom have died, suffer from widespread blood clots, low platelet counts, and internal bleeding—not typical strokes or blood clots. “It’s a very special picture” of symptoms, says Steinar Madsen, medical director of the Norwegian Medicines Agency. “Our leading hematologist said he had never seen anything quite like it.”
A somewhat similar blood disorder, called immune thrombocytopenia (ITP), has been seen in at least 36 people in the United States who had received the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines against COVID-19, The New York Times recently reported. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration said it was investigating these cases, but also said the syndrome did not appear to be more common in vaccinated people, and immunizations in the United States have continued. But Madsen says the cases seen in Europe in recent weeks are distinct from ITP, which lacks the widespread blood clots seen in the European patients.
The United Kingdom, which has administered the AstraZeneca vaccine to more than 10 million people, has so far not reported similar clusters of unusual clotting or bleeding disorders...
To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:
The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.
When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.
Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.
Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.
In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.
When did India assure its own population it wouldn't export any vaccine? They've exported 58 million doses - more than they've actually used in India
When the AZ vaccine was first licenced in India, there was officially an export ban put in place, then exemptions were made for Covax, then a big order from somewhere or other, and before you know it half have gone elsewhere. There’s now, understandably, some pushback on the politicians, who are being told to prioritise Indians over exports.
Of course, IF the Indian government has kept back vaccines destined for the UK I expect lots of calls on PB.com to nuke India.
What an idiotic comment.
Why idiotic? Now I don't think the Indian government is holding back exports, but that is what some seem to be suggesting. Nor am I in favour of anyone nuking anyone. People were calling on the UK to nuke Europe yesterday, so it would just be consistent.
India has nukes - we aren't that stupid.
The interesting bit is that I doubt anyone on here was aware that we were supposed to be receiving a batch of vaccinations from India - I suspect even MaxPB wasn't aware of that fact...
I’m sure I saw it reported a month or so back. But was definitely aware of it for a while
In which case it's not a surprise then - the estimated vaccine numbers including sources outside our complete control so there was an additional risk that people (including people on here like me) might not have been aware of .
It does however give some validation to the Time's headline as although there is zero evidence that the EU is getting our supply of AZ from India it probably wouldn't surprise anyone on here if AZ did send some to the EU just to shut them up.
Off topic (and possibly only of interest to rcs100). Though our car has barely been used for a year the insurance renewal was up significantly from last year. But I found an insurance that's based on a fixed cost for a parked car with added marginal cost per mile driven. It involves a device plugged into the ODB2 port (news to me) which is tucked away in the recesses near the pedals, which tells how far the car has been driven. I have a suspicion that the greatly reduced use of cars in the pandemic will stimulate this kind of insurance going forward (which our car hasn't been for a while!).
Against that someone’s address is often public record. And he didn’t “threaten” he turned up and said “please take down the piece calling me anti-Semitic and islamsphobic”.
So rather than reach straight for lawyers he tried to resolve the problem amicably.
Why is that a bad thing?
Politicians get copies of the full electoral register - including details of people who have asked to keep their names off the public register - and the rules on what they can and can't use it for are very strict.
To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:
The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.
When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.
Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.
Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.
In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.
When did India assure its own population it wouldn't export any vaccine? They've exported 58 million doses - more than they've actually used in India
When the AZ vaccine was first licenced in India, there was officially an export ban put in place, then exemptions were made for Covax, then a big order from somewhere or other, and before you know it half have gone elsewhere. There’s now, understandably, some pushback on the politicians, who are being told to prioritise Indians over exports.
Of course, IF the Indian government has kept back vaccines destined for the UK I expect lots of calls on PB.com to nuke India.
What an idiotic comment.
I took it as an ironic sarcastic comment, reflecting some of the idiocy posted here last night
To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:
The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.
When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.
Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.
Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.
In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.
When did India assure its own population it wouldn't export any vaccine? They've exported 58 million doses - more than they've actually used in India
When the AZ vaccine was first licenced in India, there was officially an export ban put in place, then exemptions were made for Covax, then a big order from somewhere or other, and before you know it half have gone elsewhere. There’s now, understandably, some pushback on the politicians, who are being told to prioritise Indians over exports.
Of course, IF the Indian government has kept back vaccines destined for the UK I expect lots of calls on PB.com to nuke India.
What an idiotic comment.
Why idiotic? Now I don't think the Indian government is holding back exports, but that is what some seem to be suggesting. Nor am I in favour of anyone nuking anyone. People were calling on the UK to nuke Europe yesterday, so it would just be consistent.
India has nukes - we aren't that stupid.
The interesting bit is that I doubt anyone on here was aware that we were supposed to be receiving a batch of vaccinations from India - I suspect even MaxPB wasn't aware of that fact...
OK got it: 1) it isn't stupid to nuke places that don't have nukes 2) nobody else in Europe has nukes
thanks for clearing that up.
I think this site has become way to nut-infested for me.
An excellent post. You have registered the zeitgeist perfectly. There are a few posters who have nothing to do all day other than treat us to their streams of consciousness.
Are Felix Thompson Sandpit Carlotta and Floater really different posters?
I was wondering who was behind Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice pressure group. From a quick look at some of the organizers, its looks like another (non) Independent SAGE type group.
Its a great idea,. we can then find out why the the NHS packed all those people back off to nursing homes and why and what the failings of NHS were in helping us to a very large number of deaths. But we wont because no one wants to lift that rock.
We will blame the politicians 100%, not the wonks, or the doctors who advise and devise nor point out that we are a fat nation
With respect. That wouldn't be a "full" one. All those things would be good to know for next time. I know, I know.
“The next time” sending the elderly off to nursing homes could be the right decision. That’s the whole problem. It was (highly probably - hospitals were/are very dangerous places for non infected people) the wrong decision this time because of the particular features of Covid 19. Features which were clearly poorly understood at the time, and indeed still don’t be, given there is still a high focus on clean hands and surfaces which at best seems to be a minor effect on virus spread (and not nearly enough on fresh air and ventilation). A different virus, with different characteristics and maximum hospital capacity could be THE defining need.
People talk about the nursing home decisions as officials acting like callous murderers deliberately seeking to kill tens of thousands of people. A balanced enquiry has to look at why those decisions were made, and whether without the benefit of hindsight such decisions might, could or should have been different. There is an enormous risk that the battle against a future pandemic will be lost because eg. We use fighting COVID as the template and discover that we’re fighting some completely different.
In Scotland 2/3 of all cases of Covid were caught in hospital. Even those that infected care homes were infected there. I was extremely anxious about my wife being in hospital this week and that is before I saw the disgraceful conditions they were operating because hospitals are extremely dangerous places which, if you are vulnerable to Covid, you want to get out of as fast as possible.
Hopefully she is ok David and gets out of there as soon as humanly possible.
Telegraph saying they have exclusive interview with Indian vaccine manufacturer who appears to be blaming the Indian government for pausing export while they decide what to do.
One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.
Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder. ...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.
If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...
We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.
"Pfizer and AstraZeneca deny domestic coronavirus vaccine shortage
Drugs giants Pfizer and AstraZeneca have rejected an NHS claim that the UK is facing a COVID-19 vaccine shortage, insisting there is no threat to supplies. The two leading vaccine manufacturers both said they remain on course to meet their delivery commitments and denied they were facing disruption in supplies. Their defiant statements appeared to contradict a letter to vaccination centres from NHS England warning there will be a "significant reduction" in supplies next month."
Instinct is that both can be true. NHS could have been hoping for a scaling up in supplies to outpace the need for second jabs. “Shortfall” is being misrepresented as “reduction”.
Or it could just all be expectations management. Or simply somebody somewhere along the line made a miscalculation on supply versus need (most likely explanation...)
The uncertainty over this is awful. The government has to tell us what's going on.
I feel compelled to repeat something i wrote yesterday (vanity about quality of my contributions)
"Here's the thing though. This is hugely irresponsible reporting as usual by journalists (no surprise to see LauraK at the forefront) desperate to break a story before being in control of the facts.
So you get a leaked letter about a slow down in supply and/or the vaccine programme (it's not clear). How about doing some proper journalism and getting a complete picture before splashing the story as "breaking news" on the BBC? And then putting the Health Secretary on the spot to come out with instant comments that will clearly not be complete and can be packaged however you want them.
As it is she's "broken" the story, and is now left coming out with random tweets trying to fill in the gaps to try and establish whether this actually is or isn't a big deal."
Or insist that the Government is fully transparent, despite there be many potentially good reasons for them not wanting to be so.
Today's Times headline disingenuously portrays correlation as causation...
"Setback for Britain’s vaccine rollout. Under-50s have programme paused as EU calls for ‘fair share’"
As I said yesterday - everyone was going to put the two things together regardless of whether they are connected or not.
Given the timing of the EU's story followed by the disappearance of expected vaccines it was obvious that people would combine the 2 things together.
The press is predisposed to report everything as a crisis, even when it isn’t. As a result any politician that offers bland “nothing to see here” comments is instantly declared to be “unconvincing” at best or “in denial” at worst. Because everything IS a crisis, you see. Otherwise 24 hour news has no purpose. It exists to create its own stories.
Off topic (and possibly only of interest to rcs100). Though our car has barely been used for a year the insurance renewal was up significantly from last year. But I found an insurance that's based on a fixed cost for a parked car with added marginal cost per mile driven. It involves a device plugged into the ODB2 port (news to me) which is tucked away in the recesses near the pedals, which tells how far the car has been driven. I have a suspicion that the greatly reduced use of cars in the pandemic will stimulate this kind of insurance going forward (which our car hasn't been for a while!).
I've used my car far more during the pandemic because instead of getting the bus to town, there's nothing else to do other than go for drives... 🤷♂️
Against that someone’s address is often public record. And he didn’t “threaten” he turned up and said “please take down the piece calling me anti-Semitic and islamsphobic”.
So rather than reach straight for lawyers he tried to resolve the problem amicably.
Why is that a bad thing?
Politicians get copies of the full electoral register - including details of people who have asked to keep their names off the public register - and the rules on what they can and can't use it for are very strict.
Yes. But you don’t know that’s where he got the address.
I don't think anyone on this site or elsewhere seriously suggested nuking Europe.
It's Europe that has lost its mind and is acting hysterically not the UK. Not that a partisan hack like yourself would admit it.
Have you or anyone else answered @kamski's thought experiment of what UK politicians/the media would do if UK-manufactured doses of the vaccine were being sent to the EU while the manufacturer told us that they couldn't fulfil our orders leaving us with a shortfall?
Some trouble brewing in @NickPalmer old patch of Broxtowe with Con MP staff member.
Hadn't heard about that but have looked it up. Matt Turpin (the blogger whom the staffer apparently visited at his home) is a well-known local figure who has been doing his Beestonia blog for about 15 years. He writes really well and is independent of party, but he's generally anti-Tory. There is a GDPR question about how the staff member got Matt's private address as well as the obviously undesirable idea of turning up at a journalist's home to demand that he withdraw articles.
Poor old Broxtowe. First Soubry, then this guy. Should have kept the preceding MP I reckon.
The MP in question is now looking into what happened.
To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:
The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.
When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.
Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.
Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.
In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.
When did India assure its own population it wouldn't export any vaccine? They've exported 58 million doses - more than they've actually used in India
When the AZ vaccine was first licenced in India, there was officially an export ban put in place, then exemptions were made for Covax, then a big order from somewhere or other, and before you know it half have gone elsewhere. There’s now, understandably, some pushback on the politicians, who are being told to prioritise Indians over exports.
Of course, IF the Indian government has kept back vaccines destined for the UK I expect lots of calls on PB.com to nuke India.
What an idiotic comment.
Why idiotic? Now I don't think the Indian government is holding back exports, but that is what some seem to be suggesting. Nor am I in favour of anyone nuking anyone. People were calling on the UK to nuke Europe yesterday, so it would just be consistent.
India has nukes - we aren't that stupid.
The interesting bit is that I doubt anyone on here was aware that we were supposed to be receiving a batch of vaccinations from India - I suspect even MaxPB wasn't aware of that fact...
I’m sure I saw it reported a month or so back. But was definitely aware of it for a while
In which case it's not a surprise then - the estimated vaccine numbers including sources outside our complete control so there was an additional risk that people (including people on here like me) might not have been aware of .
It does however give some validation to the Time's headline as although there is zero evidence that the EU is getting our supply of AZ from India it probably wouldn't surprise anyone on here if AZ did send some to the EU just to shut them up.
It was reported, because there were "taking vaccines from developing countries" stories, and Gvt Ministers said that SII had confirmed doses would not be diverted from developing countries.
So it is 'surplus' production, and I would speculate that the reason we aren't getting it quite as quickly as hoped is that developing countries or India's own rollout are being correctly prioritised if there is a squeeze. https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/uk-import-covid-19-vaccine-192804050.html
Against that someone’s address is often public record. And he didn’t “threaten” he turned up and said “please take down the piece calling me anti-Semitic and islamsphobic”.
So rather than reach straight for lawyers he tried to resolve the problem amicably.
Why is that a bad thing?
Politicians get copies of the full electoral register - including details of people who have asked to keep their names off the public register - and the rules on what they can and can't use it for are very strict.
Yes. But you don’t know that’s where he got the address.
The guy's two complaints appear to be that he doesn't know how the MP's aide got his address, and that he felt intimidated. The latter suggests the exchange may have been less than amicable. The former, you're right that we don't know, but using the electoral register software is by far the easiest way for an MP's office to locate someone in their patch.
One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.
Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder. ...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.
If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...
We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.
Further to which, the reason for alarm in the original cluster in Norway was the relative youth of those affected.
One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.
Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder. ...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.
If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...
We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.
Further to which, the reason for alarm in the original cluster in Norway was the relative youth of those affected.
Perhaps the slow down in our roll-out to younger cohorts is a godsend.
One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.
Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder. ...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.
If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...
We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.
Further to which, the reason for alarm in the original cluster in Norway was the relative youth of those affected.
Perhaps the pause in our roll-out to younger cohorts is a godsend.
To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:
The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.
When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.
Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.
Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.
In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.
When did India assure its own population it wouldn't export any vaccine? They've exported 58 million doses - more than they've actually used in India
When the AZ vaccine was first licenced in India, there was officially an export ban put in place, then exemptions were made for Covax, then a big order from somewhere or other, and before you know it half have gone elsewhere. There’s now, understandably, some pushback on the politicians, who are being told to prioritise Indians over exports.
Of course, IF the Indian government has kept back vaccines destined for the UK I expect lots of calls on PB.com to nuke India.
What an idiotic comment.
Why idiotic? Now I don't think the Indian government is holding back exports, but that is what some seem to be suggesting. Nor am I in favour of anyone nuking anyone. People were calling on the UK to nuke Europe yesterday, so it would just be consistent.
India has nukes - we aren't that stupid.
The interesting bit is that I doubt anyone on here was aware that we were supposed to be receiving a batch of vaccinations from India - I suspect even MaxPB wasn't aware of that fact...
I’m sure I saw it reported a month or so back. But was definitely aware of it for a while
In which case it's not a surprise then - the estimated vaccine numbers including sources outside our complete control so there was an additional risk that people (including people on here like me) might not have been aware of .
It does however give some validation to the Time's headline as although there is zero evidence that the EU is getting our supply of AZ from India it probably wouldn't surprise anyone on here if AZ did send some to the EU just to shut them up.
It was reported, because there were "taking vaccines from developing countries" stories, and Gvt Ministers said that SII had confirmed doses would not be diverted from developing countries.
So it is 'surplus' production, and I would speculate that the reason we aren't getting it quite as quickly as hoped is that developing countries or India's own rollout are being correctly prioritised if there is a squeeze. https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/uk-import-covid-19-vaccine-192804050.html
That sounds potentially plausible. Indian production was ahead of need so we’re we’re getting more doses as we could use them. This wasn’t eg. prioritising U.K. over EU as AZ does not currently have approval to supply EU from India. However the supply to the U.K. is not guaranteed as it is only vaccine produced in the U.K. that we have priority over.
Off topic (and possibly only of interest to rcs100). Though our car has barely been used for a year the insurance renewal was up significantly from last year. But I found an insurance that's based on a fixed cost for a parked car with added marginal cost per mile driven. It involves a device plugged into the ODB2 port (news to me) which is tucked away in the recesses near the pedals, which tells how far the car has been driven. I have a suspicion that the greatly reduced use of cars in the pandemic will stimulate this kind of insurance going forward (which our car hasn't been for a while!).
An individual not using their car, beyond a certain point, doesn't decrease risk, as very low mileage drivers includes very-occasional motorists, many of whom are elderly and less confident in their driving, who are higher accident risk. Similar to all the extra breakdowns you get when people who hardly ever drive set off to visit relatives at Christmas.
Premiums should have gone down across the board, due to the paucity of claims last year. Anecdote suggests this has happened at some insurers, but by no means all.
To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:
The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.
When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.
Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.
Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.
In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.
When did India assure its own population it wouldn't export any vaccine? They've exported 58 million doses - more than they've actually used in India
When the AZ vaccine was first licenced in India, there was officially an export ban put in place, then exemptions were made for Covax, then a big order from somewhere or other, and before you know it half have gone elsewhere. There’s now, understandably, some pushback on the politicians, who are being told to prioritise Indians over exports.
Of course, IF the Indian government has kept back vaccines destined for the UK I expect lots of calls on PB.com to nuke India.
What an idiotic comment.
Why idiotic? Now I don't think the Indian government is holding back exports, but that is what some seem to be suggesting. Nor am I in favour of anyone nuking anyone. People were calling on the UK to nuke Europe yesterday, so it would just be consistent.
India has nukes - we aren't that stupid.
The interesting bit is that I doubt anyone on here was aware that we were supposed to be receiving a batch of vaccinations from India - I suspect even MaxPB wasn't aware of that fact...
I’m sure I saw it reported a month or so back. But was definitely aware of it for a while
In which case it's not a surprise then - the estimated vaccine numbers including sources outside our complete control so there was an additional risk that people (including people on here like me) might not have been aware of .
It does however give some validation to the Time's headline as although there is zero evidence that the EU is getting our supply of AZ from India it probably wouldn't surprise anyone on here if AZ did send some to the EU just to shut them up.
It was reported, because there were "taking vaccines from developing countries" stories, and Gvt Ministers said that SII had confirmed doses would not be diverted from developing countries.
So it is 'surplus' production, and I would speculate that the reason we aren't getting it quite as quickly as hoped is that developing countries or India's own rollout are being correctly prioritised if there is a squeeze. https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/uk-import-covid-19-vaccine-192804050.html
In which case the issue is that the Government have planned on the basis that we were going to receive those vaccines (Y) rather than the on the basis that we are going to get X vaccines but may get more
Which you can clear see within the NHS letter. As that is telling managers to redirect resources away from vaccinations (so they were clearly planning on Y vaccines being done) and I wonder what other decisions (such as lockdown dates) have been made on that basis.
Off topic (and possibly only of interest to rcs100). Though our car has barely been used for a year the insurance renewal was up significantly from last year. But I found an insurance that's based on a fixed cost for a parked car with added marginal cost per mile driven. It involves a device plugged into the ODB2 port (news to me) which is tucked away in the recesses near the pedals, which tells how far the car has been driven. I have a suspicion that the greatly reduced use of cars in the pandemic will stimulate this kind of insurance going forward (which our car hasn't been for a while!).
You can put an Arduino between the OBD2 port and the device to rewrite the Canbus frames and report any distance you like. #fightthepower
One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.
Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder. ...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.
If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...
We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.
Further to which, the reason for alarm in the original cluster in Norway was the relative youth of those affected.
Perhaps the pause in our roll-out to younger cohorts is a godsend.
One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.
Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder. ...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.
If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...
We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.
Further to which, the reason for alarm in the original cluster in Norway was the relative youth of those affected.
I don't think anyone on this site or elsewhere seriously suggested nuking Europe.
It's Europe that has lost its mind and is acting hysterically not the UK. Not that a partisan hack like yourself would admit it.
Have you or anyone else answered @kamski's thought experiment of what UK politicians/the media would do if UK-manufactured doses of the vaccine were being sent to the EU while the manufacturer told us that they couldn't fulfil our orders leaving us with a shortfall?
Us? Stiff upper lip until you vote the buggers out.
You can see what the issue might be in the EU.....
One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.
Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder. ...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.
If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...
We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.
Further to which, the reason for alarm in the original cluster in Norway was the relative youth of those affected.
Perhaps the slow down in our roll-out to younger cohorts is a godsend.
Given it appears US have higher numbers with pfizer you wonder why no panic about that. Suspicious given it is produced in Europe. If safety was only concern then they would have stopped that one first, unless they are not using that on under 50's.
To those angry with the government’s opaque communication:
The situation is in some ways not dissimilar to a government refusing to discuss battle minutiae in a war.
When the uk vax programme was trickling along in early Jan, I remember coming here pretty frustrated and saying a competent government would be trying to buy some of India’s production, despite India’s assurances to their own people that they wouldn’t export any. Looks like pretty quietly, this is exactly what the Uk government did. They can’t now loudly disclose that we won’t hit our stretch-on-stretch targets because of a problem in India.
Further the timing of the announcement / leak suspiciously coincides with UvdL’s manic statement yesterday. There may be an element of domestic expectations management that we will be stockpiling Pfizer second doses in anticipation of a potential export ban, but also it’s messaging to the Commission that we’re now struggling with supply just as much as you, with the aim of delaying any blockade.
Finally there’s unspecified talk of a large batch needing to be retested, which I imagine is perfectly normal. You don’t want to talk too loudly about that either so as not to give credibility to the anti vaxxers. Read the comments on the Daily Mail and you’ll see what I mean, they already feel the wind in their sails and need no extra encouragement.
In short, I know it’s hard but cut the government some slack and trust that they’re playing the cards they have as well as they can, in all our interests.
When did India assure its own population it wouldn't export any vaccine? They've exported 58 million doses - more than they've actually used in India
When the AZ vaccine was first licenced in India, there was officially an export ban put in place, then exemptions were made for Covax, then a big order from somewhere or other, and before you know it half have gone elsewhere. There’s now, understandably, some pushback on the politicians, who are being told to prioritise Indians over exports.
Of course, IF the Indian government has kept back vaccines destined for the UK I expect lots of calls on PB.com to nuke India.
What an idiotic comment.
Why idiotic? Now I don't think the Indian government is holding back exports, but that is what some seem to be suggesting. Nor am I in favour of anyone nuking anyone. People were calling on the UK to nuke Europe yesterday, so it would just be consistent.
India has nukes - we aren't that stupid.
The interesting bit is that I doubt anyone on here was aware that we were supposed to be receiving a batch of vaccinations from India - I suspect even MaxPB wasn't aware of that fact...
I’m sure I saw it reported a month or so back. But was definitely aware of it for a while
In which case it's not a surprise then - the estimated vaccine numbers including sources outside our complete control so there was an additional risk that people (including people on here like me) might not have been aware of .
It does however give some validation to the Time's headline as although there is zero evidence that the EU is getting our supply of AZ from India it probably wouldn't surprise anyone on here if AZ did send some to the EU just to shut them up.
It was reported, because there were "taking vaccines from developing countries" stories, and Gvt Ministers said that SII had confirmed doses would not be diverted from developing countries.
So it is 'surplus' production, and I would speculate that the reason we aren't getting it quite as quickly as hoped is that developing countries or India's own rollout are being correctly prioritised if there is a squeeze. https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/uk-import-covid-19-vaccine-192804050.html
In which case the issue is that the Government have planned on the basis that we were going to receive those vaccines (Y) rather than the on the basis that we are going to get X vaccines but may get more
And given that it was clear that the NHS were clearly expecting to get Y vaccines because all the planning seems to have been on that basis I wonder what other decisions (such as lockdown dates) have been made on that basis.
That depends on how much lockdown decisions are actually based around vaccine rollout to younger and much lower medical risk cohorts.
Against that someone’s address is often public record. And he didn’t “threaten” he turned up and said “please take down the piece calling me anti-Semitic and islamsphobic”.
So rather than reach straight for lawyers he tried to resolve the problem amicably.
Why is that a bad thing?
Politicians get copies of the full electoral register - including details of people who have asked to keep their names off the public register - and the rules on what they can and can't use it for are very strict.
Yes. But you don’t know that’s where he got the address.
The guy's two complaints appear to be that he doesn't know how the MP's aide got his address, and that he felt intimidated. The latter suggests the exchange may have been less than amicable. The former, you're right that we don't know, but using the electoral register software is by far the easiest way for an MP's office to locate someone in their patch.
One of those involved has posted on twitter. This is the chap who runs the local news blog @NickPalmer mentioned earlier.
Off topic (and possibly only of interest to rcs100). Though our car has barely been used for a year the insurance renewal was up significantly from last year. But I found an insurance that's based on a fixed cost for a parked car with added marginal cost per mile driven. It involves a device plugged into the ODB2 port (news to me) which is tucked away in the recesses near the pedals, which tells how far the car has been driven. I have a suspicion that the greatly reduced use of cars in the pandemic will stimulate this kind of insurance going forward (which our car hasn't been for a while!).
You can put an Arduino between the OBD2 port and the device to rewrite the Canbus frames and report any distance you like. #fightthepower
It depends what it is using the OBD2 port for - it might just be for power and the rest of the system uses a mobile sim card and GPS.
Off topic (and possibly only of interest to rcs100). Though our car has barely been used for a year the insurance renewal was up significantly from last year. But I found an insurance that's based on a fixed cost for a parked car with added marginal cost per mile driven. It involves a device plugged into the ODB2 port (news to me) which is tucked away in the recesses near the pedals, which tells how far the car has been driven. I have a suspicion that the greatly reduced use of cars in the pandemic will stimulate this kind of insurance going forward (which our car hasn't been for a while!).
An individual not using their car, beyond a certain point, doesn't decrease risk, as very low mileage drivers includes very-occasional motorists, many of whom are elderly and less confident in their driving, who are higher accident risk. Similar to all the extra breakdowns you get when people who hardly ever drive set off to visit relatives at Christmas.
Premiums should have gone down across the board, due to the paucity of claims last year. Anecdote suggests this has happened at some insurers, but by no means all.
If I may say so, you are conflating individual and group. For a given driver who is now driving much less than before because of the pandemic the risks you mention are presumably no different.
This is the best account I've seen on why European countries suspended use of the AZN vaccine. I still think it was a serious error, but this does at least provide a rationale for authorities thinking the cases seen might have been incidences of rare side effects from the vaccine. (Though of course it's also possible they were rare - and known - side effects of Covid.)
The whole article is worth a read.
‘It’s a very special picture.’ Why vaccine safety experts put the brakes on AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/03/it-s-very-special-picture-why-vaccine-safety-experts-put-brakes-astrazeneca-s-covid-19 ...vaccine safety officials say they did not take the decision lightly, and that symptoms seen in at least 13 patients, all between ages 20 and 50 and previously healthy, in at least five countries are more frequent than would be expected by chance. The patients, at least seven of whom have died, suffer from widespread blood clots, low platelet counts, and internal bleeding—not typical strokes or blood clots. “It’s a very special picture” of symptoms, says Steinar Madsen, medical director of the Norwegian Medicines Agency. “Our leading hematologist said he had never seen anything quite like it.”
A somewhat similar blood disorder, called immune thrombocytopenia (ITP), has been seen in at least 36 people in the United States who had received the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines against COVID-19, The New York Times recently reported. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration said it was investigating these cases, but also said the syndrome did not appear to be more common in vaccinated people, and immunizations in the United States have continued. But Madsen says the cases seen in Europe in recent weeks are distinct from ITP, which lacks the widespread blood clots seen in the European patients.
The United Kingdom, which has administered the AstraZeneca vaccine to more than 10 million people, has so far not reported similar clusters of unusual clotting or bleeding disorders...
Bravo! A thoughtful post at last.
(But are you sure it's not a simple case of twenty odd European countries in their fanatical jealously of our governments genius getting together to try to do us damage?)
Off topic (and possibly only of interest to rcs100). Though our car has barely been used for a year the insurance renewal was up significantly from last year. But I found an insurance that's based on a fixed cost for a parked car with added marginal cost per mile driven. It involves a device plugged into the ODB2 port (news to me) which is tucked away in the recesses near the pedals, which tells how far the car has been driven. I have a suspicion that the greatly reduced use of cars in the pandemic will stimulate this kind of insurance going forward (which our car hasn't been for a while!).
You can put an Arduino between the OBD2 port and the device to rewrite the Canbus frames and report any distance you like. #fightthepower
Didn't understand much of that, but it sounds nefarious.
One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.
Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder. ...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.
If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...
We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.
Further to which, the reason for alarm in the original cluster in Norway was the relative youth of those affected.
Perhaps the pause in our roll-out to younger cohorts is a godsend.
Got to be joking haven't you ?
Well yes.
Though it would be ironic if the "experiment" in some countries to give AZ to younger people and Pfizer/Moderna to older people led to us finding out that the reverse is the best idea.
Off topic (and possibly only of interest to rcs100). Though our car has barely been used for a year the insurance renewal was up significantly from last year. But I found an insurance that's based on a fixed cost for a parked car with added marginal cost per mile driven. It involves a device plugged into the ODB2 port (news to me) which is tucked away in the recesses near the pedals, which tells how far the car has been driven. I have a suspicion that the greatly reduced use of cars in the pandemic will stimulate this kind of insurance going forward (which our car hasn't been for a while!).
An individual not using their car, beyond a certain point, doesn't decrease risk, as very low mileage drivers includes very-occasional motorists, many of whom are elderly and less confident in their driving, who are higher accident risk. Similar to all the extra breakdowns you get when people who hardly ever drive set off to visit relatives at Christmas.
Premiums should have gone down across the board, due to the paucity of claims last year. Anecdote suggests this has happened at some insurers, but by no means all.
If I may say so, you are conflating individual and group. For a given driver who is now driving much less than before because of the pandemic the risks you mention are presumably no different.
For sure. But the question then is how much aggregation the insurers are doing. And there is still the question of what, in the aviation world, is known as currency. Pilots who fly less are known to be higher risks, because they aren't 'keeping their hand in' and have slower reaction times to anything unexpected. Whether the same effect applies to driving, I don't know.
I don't know. Perhaps hearing a senior politician saying "there is cause for concern"?
We’re from the government. We’re here to help.
That one is just plain dumb. I find it hard to believe even small staters buy that, it just comes across as disingenuous given all the things even they like the government doing.
Against that someone’s address is often public record. And he didn’t “threaten” he turned up and said “please take down the piece calling me anti-Semitic and islamsphobic”.
So rather than reach straight for lawyers he tried to resolve the problem amicably.
Why is that a bad thing?
Politicians get copies of the full electoral register - including details of people who have asked to keep their names off the public register - and the rules on what they can and can't use it for are very strict.
Yes. But you don’t know that’s where he got the address.
The guy's two complaints appear to be that he doesn't know how the MP's aide got his address, and that he felt intimidated. The latter suggests the exchange may have been less than amicable. The former, you're right that we don't know, but using the electoral register software is by far the easiest way for an MP's office to locate someone in their patch.
One of those involved has posted on twitter. This is the chap who runs the local news blog @NickPalmer mentioned earlier.
If you read his thread - it seems that the MP's employee did far more research beyond illegally looking an address up - to the extent that I suspect he didn't look the address up in that way.
It also seems that this matter won't rest - as I suspect all the dirty laundry of the employee (and the MP) is going to be corroborated and then published - as that person's reaction is not one of someone who does things in anger.
Well, well, well. Specifically stated on the Beeb that the delay is in Indian produced vaccine.
Nothing, nada, zilch to do with the EU.
Indeed, though interesting to wonder whether the government would change plans because the EU might do something. I suspect probably not, but given we’re about to hit the second doses, it must be a worry.
Off topic (and possibly only of interest to rcs100). Though our car has barely been used for a year the insurance renewal was up significantly from last year. But I found an insurance that's based on a fixed cost for a parked car with added marginal cost per mile driven. It involves a device plugged into the ODB2 port (news to me) which is tucked away in the recesses near the pedals, which tells how far the car has been driven. I have a suspicion that the greatly reduced use of cars in the pandemic will stimulate this kind of insurance going forward (which our car hasn't been for a while!).
You can put an Arduino between the OBD2 port and the device to rewrite the Canbus frames and report any distance you like. #fightthepower
Didn't understand much of that, but it sounds nefarious.
It's amazing what you can do with an arduino. Named after the bar in Italy where they were invented.
One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.
Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder. ...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.
If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...
We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.
Further to which, the reason for alarm in the original cluster in Norway was the relative youth of those affected.
This is interesting because, AIUI, one of the problems with the initial trials was that only relatively few (8%?) people were over 65.
So the younger cohorts were well represented in the trial data.
One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.
Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder. ...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.
If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...
We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.
Further to which, the reason for alarm in the original cluster in Norway was the relative youth of those affected.
This is interesting because, AIUI, one of the problems with the initial trials was that only relatively few (8%?) people were over 65.
So the younger cohorts were well represented in the trial data.
Good morning, everyone.
We're still taking about tiny numbers per million; perhaps the trials weren't big enough?
One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.
Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder. ...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.
If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...
We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.
Further to which, the reason for alarm in the original cluster in Norway was the relative youth of those affected.
This is interesting because, AIUI, one of the problems with the initial trials was that only relatively few (8%?) people were over 65.
So the younger cohorts were well represented in the trial data.
Good morning, everyone.
We're still taking about tiny numbers per million; perhaps the trials weren't big enough?
Bah, stick a few aspirin in the vaccine recipe, it'll be 'reet.
This is the best account I've seen on why European countries suspended use of the AZN vaccine. I still think it was a serious error, but this does at least provide a rationale for authorities thinking the cases seen might have been incidences of rare side effects from the vaccine. (Though of course it's also possible they were rare - and known - side effects of Covid.)
The whole article is worth a read.
‘It’s a very special picture.’ Why vaccine safety experts put the brakes on AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/03/it-s-very-special-picture-why-vaccine-safety-experts-put-brakes-astrazeneca-s-covid-19 ...vaccine safety officials say they did not take the decision lightly, and that symptoms seen in at least 13 patients, all between ages 20 and 50 and previously healthy, in at least five countries are more frequent than would be expected by chance. The patients, at least seven of whom have died, suffer from widespread blood clots, low platelet counts, and internal bleeding—not typical strokes or blood clots. “It’s a very special picture” of symptoms, says Steinar Madsen, medical director of the Norwegian Medicines Agency. “Our leading hematologist said he had never seen anything quite like it.”
A somewhat similar blood disorder, called immune thrombocytopenia (ITP), has been seen in at least 36 people in the United States who had received the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines against COVID-19, The New York Times recently reported. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration said it was investigating these cases, but also said the syndrome did not appear to be more common in vaccinated people, and immunizations in the United States have continued. But Madsen says the cases seen in Europe in recent weeks are distinct from ITP, which lacks the widespread blood clots seen in the European patients.
The United Kingdom, which has administered the AstraZeneca vaccine to more than 10 million people, has so far not reported similar clusters of unusual clotting or bleeding disorders...
Bravo! A thoughtful post at last.
(But are you sure it's not a simple case of twenty odd European countries in their fanatical jealously of our governments genius getting together to try to do us damage?)
In some respects some had already done that, with the unscientific denial of the vaccine to the over 65s - Macron's behaviour, for example, being particularly egregious.
But in this case, while probably a mistake, it's not completely irrational.
One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.
Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder. ...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.
If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...
We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.
Further to which, the reason for alarm in the original cluster in Norway was the relative youth of those affected.
"As far as [German] citizens are concerned, the buck stops with Angela and Ursula, both Christian Democrats. Voters can do nothing about unelected Eurocrats, but they can still punish the woman who will shortly be stepping down as Chancellor.
It was no surprise that, last Sunday, the centre-Right party that has dominated German politics since the war was routed at the polls. In elections for two states that were once its strongholds, Baden-Württemberg and Rhineland-Palatinate, the Christian Democrats finished a poor second, behind the Greens and the Social Democrats respectively."
One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.
Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder. ...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.
If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...
We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.
Further to which, the reason for alarm in the original cluster in Norway was the relative youth of those affected.
This is interesting because, AIUI, one of the problems with the initial trials was that only relatively few (8%?) people were over 65.
So the younger cohorts were well represented in the trial data.
Good morning, everyone.
We're still taking about tiny numbers per million; perhaps the trials weren't big enough?
If think if you work through the logic, the trials wouldn't pick it up.
The issue seems to be blots occurring if you have Covid (or have had Covid / long Covid?) and then have the vaccine.
At the time the trial was taking place it's very unlikely that that set of circumstances that seem to be the issue would occur - as most people hadn't had Covid or any chance of catching it, it was looking for the opposite and anyone with Covid was ruled out from the trial.
It's only now, a year later with Covid spreading around the general population and millions of people being vaccinated that the circumstances of being vaccinated while suffering from Covid is a real possibility.
I don't know. Perhaps hearing a senior politician saying "there is cause for concern"?
We’re from the government. We’re here to help.
That one is just plain dumb. I find it hard to believe even small staters buy that, it just comes across as disingenuous given all the things even they like the government doing.
Yes, it's a symptom of Reagan veneration, quite common in conservatives with a connection to the US.
One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.
Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder. ...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.
If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...
We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.
Further to which, the reason for alarm in the original cluster in Norway was the relative youth of those affected.
This is interesting because, AIUI, one of the problems with the initial trials was that only relatively few (8%?) people were over 65.
So the younger cohorts were well represented in the trial data.
Good morning, everyone.
Good point. But trials did a few thousand, the real world is doing 10s of millions.
In return for money. How much exactly? Given this lot's spaffing tendencies, the Turks will be rubbing their hands.
This is what I've been advocating since people started crossing the Channel in boats.
It is the best humanitarian thing to do. Crossing the Channel in dinghies is dangerous and only doing this will stop it.
This is also what the Aussies did, so there's good precedent and lessons to follow. Once the Aussies started doing this, the boats dried up quite quickly.
The likes of the Guardian would scream blue murder, but doing this will save lives.
Yes. Although in fairness Australia is a little further.
The optics of sending undesirables from the Uk to Australia wouldn’t be good though...
Strikes me as fairly revealing that you think asylum seekers = undesirables.
One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.
Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder. ...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.
If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...
We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.
Further to which, the reason for alarm in the original cluster in Norway was the relative youth of those affected.
This is interesting because, AIUI, one of the problems with the initial trials was that only relatively few (8%?) people were over 65.
So the younger cohorts were well represented in the trial data.
Good morning, everyone.
There's no certainty about any of this. These are very small numbers indeed - and the symptoms, while extremely rare, are known also to be associated with Covid itself - and while it's not unusual for rare side effects to show up after clinical trials, once a medication goes into general use, there is no conclusive evidence that these are vaccine side effects.
If I were due an AZN jab tomorrow, it wouldn't stop me getting it.
It will be interesting to see what the EMA has to say today.
This is the best account I've seen on why European countries suspended use of the AZN vaccine. I still think it was a serious error, but this does at least provide a rationale for authorities thinking the cases seen might have been incidences of rare side effects from the vaccine. (Though of course it's also possible they were rare - and known - side effects of Covid.)
The whole article is worth a read.
‘It’s a very special picture.’ Why vaccine safety experts put the brakes on AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/03/it-s-very-special-picture-why-vaccine-safety-experts-put-brakes-astrazeneca-s-covid-19 ...vaccine safety officials say they did not take the decision lightly, and that symptoms seen in at least 13 patients, all between ages 20 and 50 and previously healthy, in at least five countries are more frequent than would be expected by chance. The patients, at least seven of whom have died, suffer from widespread blood clots, low platelet counts, and internal bleeding—not typical strokes or blood clots. “It’s a very special picture” of symptoms, says Steinar Madsen, medical director of the Norwegian Medicines Agency. “Our leading hematologist said he had never seen anything quite like it.”
A somewhat similar blood disorder, called immune thrombocytopenia (ITP), has been seen in at least 36 people in the United States who had received the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines against COVID-19, The New York Times recently reported. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration said it was investigating these cases, but also said the syndrome did not appear to be more common in vaccinated people, and immunizations in the United States have continued. But Madsen says the cases seen in Europe in recent weeks are distinct from ITP, which lacks the widespread blood clots seen in the European patients.
The United Kingdom, which has administered the AstraZeneca vaccine to more than 10 million people, has so far not reported similar clusters of unusual clotting or bleeding disorders...
Bravo! A thoughtful post at last.
(But are you sure it's not a simple case of twenty odd European countries in their fanatical jealously of our governments genius getting together to try to do us damage?)
In some respects some had already done that, with the unscientific denial of the vaccine to the over 65s - Macron's behaviour, for example, being particularly egregious.
But in this case, while probably a mistake, it's not completely irrational.
Surely stopping it for all people is irrational. I appreciate that it would be somewhat ironic if having declared it unsuitable for over 65s, it turns out that there may be some risk for younger people (after all, the potential downside doesn’t need to be as large to be a problem for younger people who are much less likely to die from COVID), but they are killing a lot of older people at the moment with this decision.
One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.
Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder. ...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.
If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...
We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.
Further to which, the reason for alarm in the original cluster in Norway was the relative youth of those affected.
This is interesting because, AIUI, one of the problems with the initial trials was that only relatively few (8%?) people were over 65.
So the younger cohorts were well represented in the trial data.
Good morning, everyone.
There's no certainty about any of this. These are very small numbers indeed - and the symptoms, while extremely rare, are known also to be associated with Covid itself - and while it's not unusual for rare side effects to show up after clinical trials, once a medication goes into general use, there is no conclusive evidence that these are vaccine side effects.
If I were due an AZN jab tomorrow, it wouldn't stop me getting it.
It will be interesting to see what the EMA has to say today.
Thanks for sharing that link - very interesting and a very tricky dilemma for those involved.
One point of difference between UK and EU usage of the AZN vaccine is that up until the last week or so, the UK has vaccinated a much older cohort than has been the case in much of Europe, where the vaccine was not approved for use in those over 65.
Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder. ...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.
If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...
We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.
Further to which, the reason for alarm in the original cluster in Norway was the relative youth of those affected.
This is interesting because, AIUI, one of the problems with the initial trials was that only relatively few (8%?) people were over 65.
So the younger cohorts were well represented in the trial data.
Good morning, everyone.
There's no certainty about any of this. These are very small numbers indeed - and the symptoms, while extremely rare, are known also to be associated with Covid itself - and while it's not unusual for rare side effects to show up after clinical trials, once a medication goes into general use, there is no conclusive evidence that these are vaccine side effects.
If I were due an AZN jab tomorrow, it wouldn't stop me getting it.
It will be interesting to see what the EMA has to say today.
I think this is the key point, if I was told that tomorrow I could get jabbed with an AZ dose I'd be making my appointment immediately. One of the things I'm worried about is that the EMA has said it is looking into this issue with all of the vaccines so it may need to put the warning label on all of them given that the FDA has noted a similar rate of this side effect from Pfizer and Moderna. What may end up happening is that the EMA undermine all of the three major vaccines available to Europeans by saying there is an infinitesimally small chance of getting a blood clot that also has a tiny chance of being data and that it applies to all of the vaccines.
This is the best account I've seen on why European countries suspended use of the AZN vaccine. I still think it was a serious error, but this does at least provide a rationale for authorities thinking the cases seen might have been incidences of rare side effects from the vaccine. (Though of course it's also possible they were rare - and known - side effects of Covid.)
The whole article is worth a read.
‘It’s a very special picture.’ Why vaccine safety experts put the brakes on AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/03/it-s-very-special-picture-why-vaccine-safety-experts-put-brakes-astrazeneca-s-covid-19 ...vaccine safety officials say they did not take the decision lightly, and that symptoms seen in at least 13 patients, all between ages 20 and 50 and previously healthy, in at least five countries are more frequent than would be expected by chance. The patients, at least seven of whom have died, suffer from widespread blood clots, low platelet counts, and internal bleeding—not typical strokes or blood clots. “It’s a very special picture” of symptoms, says Steinar Madsen, medical director of the Norwegian Medicines Agency. “Our leading hematologist said he had never seen anything quite like it.”
A somewhat similar blood disorder, called immune thrombocytopenia (ITP), has been seen in at least 36 people in the United States who had received the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines against COVID-19, The New York Times recently reported. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration said it was investigating these cases, but also said the syndrome did not appear to be more common in vaccinated people, and immunizations in the United States have continued. But Madsen says the cases seen in Europe in recent weeks are distinct from ITP, which lacks the widespread blood clots seen in the European patients.
The United Kingdom, which has administered the AstraZeneca vaccine to more than 10 million people, has so far not reported similar clusters of unusual clotting or bleeding disorders...
Bravo! A thoughtful post at last.
(But are you sure it's not a simple case of twenty odd European countries in their fanatical jealously of our governments genius getting together to try to do us damage?)
In some respects some had already done that, with the unscientific denial of the vaccine to the over 65s - Macron's behaviour, for example, being particularly egregious.
But in this case, while probably a mistake, it's not completely irrational.
Surely stopping it for all people is irrational. I appreciate that it would be somewhat ironic if having declared it unsuitable for over 65s, it turns out that there may be some risk for younger people (after all, the potential downside doesn’t need to be as large to be a problem for younger people who are much less likely to die from COVID), but they are killing a lot of older people at the moment with this decision.
I don't disagree. That there's something to investigate is undeniable, but it needn't have halted vaccination, particularly in the higher risks cohorts.
Comments
So rather than reach straight for lawyers he tried to resolve the problem amicably.
Why is that a bad thing?
I'm now in the approximate time range for my second Pfizer one.
And finally it's looks like a better, and somewhat warmer, day here.
People were calling on the UK to nuke Europe yesterday, so it would just be consistent.
That leaves two possible options...
Leader’s death follows two-week absence from public life that prompted rumours he had virus"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/17/tanzanias-president-john-magufuli-dies-aged-61
The interesting bit is that I doubt anyone on here was aware that we were supposed to be receiving a batch of vaccinations from India - I suspect even MaxPB wasn't aware of that fact...
And even if it were realised that in some cases infected people would be released, the numbers that were and the extent to which they represented a danger to others was woefully underestimated.
But, of course, that is for the inquiry to determine.
Many will be gathered together in schools, anyway.
"Here's the thing though. This is hugely irresponsible reporting as usual by journalists (no surprise to see LauraK at the forefront) desperate to break a story before being in control of the facts.
So you get a leaked letter about a slow down in supply and/or the vaccine programme (it's not clear). How about doing some proper journalism and getting a complete picture before splashing the story as "breaking news" on the BBC? And then putting the Health Secretary on the spot to come out with instant comments that will clearly not be complete and can be packaged however you want them.
As it is she's "broken" the story, and is now left coming out with random tweets trying to fill in the gaps to try and establish whether this actually is or isn't a big deal."
Or insist that the Government is fully transparent, despite there be many potentially good reasons for them not wanting to be so.
But the EU have been inspecting SII vaccine production facilities with a view to importing vaccine.
I recall a clause allowing AZ to use other facilities apart from the 4 identified, with EU agreement, but not one the other way.
Apologies - clarification - The EU-AZ contract said that production could be done in the EU ("including the UK") without additional regulatory approvals.
Production outside of the EU could be done, but would require additional seeking and granting of permissions. Which means time.
1) it isn't stupid to nuke places that don't have nukes
2) nobody else in Europe has nukes
thanks for clearing that up.
I think this site has become way to nut-infested for me.
Any admin staff in charge of such decisions should be answerable to a professional body on an individual level, as doctors and nurses are.
It's Europe that has lost its mind and is acting hysterically not the UK. Not that a partisan hack like yourself would admit it.
"Setback for Britain’s vaccine rollout. Under-50s have programme paused as EU calls for ‘fair share’"
Given the timing of the EU's story followed by the disappearance of expected vaccines it was obvious that people would combine the 2 things together.
My mum was DNR'd without my knowledge or consultation in 2019, but the point was made that Doctors have that right in individual cases. That is why it is "consultation" - relatives advise, Drs decide. I was in possession of full Power of Medical Attorney at the time.
I still think it was a serious error, but this does at least provide a rationale for authorities thinking the cases seen might have been incidences of rare side effects from the vaccine. (Though of course it's also possible they were rare - and known - side effects of Covid.)
The whole article is worth a read.
‘It’s a very special picture.’ Why vaccine safety experts put the brakes on AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/03/it-s-very-special-picture-why-vaccine-safety-experts-put-brakes-astrazeneca-s-covid-19
...vaccine safety officials say they did not take the decision lightly, and that symptoms seen in at least 13 patients, all between ages 20 and 50 and previously healthy, in at least five countries are more frequent than would be expected by chance. The patients, at least seven of whom have died, suffer from widespread blood clots, low platelet counts, and internal bleeding—not typical strokes or blood clots. “It’s a very special picture” of symptoms, says Steinar Madsen, medical director of the Norwegian Medicines Agency. “Our leading hematologist said he had never seen anything quite like it.”
A somewhat similar blood disorder, called immune thrombocytopenia (ITP), has been seen in at least 36 people in the United States who had received the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines against COVID-19, The New York Times recently reported. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration said it was investigating these cases, but also said the syndrome did not appear to be more common in vaccinated people, and immunizations in the United States have continued. But Madsen says the cases seen in Europe in recent weeks are distinct from ITP, which lacks the widespread blood clots seen in the European patients.
The United Kingdom, which has administered the AstraZeneca vaccine to more than 10 million people, has so far not reported similar clusters of unusual clotting or bleeding disorders...
It does however give some validation to the Time's headline as although there is zero evidence that the EU is getting our supply of AZ from India it probably wouldn't surprise anyone on here if AZ did send some to the EU just to shut them up.
Are Felix Thompson Sandpit Carlotta and Floater really different posters?
Whether that is significant or not is a matter of conjecture, but this (from the article I posted above) made me wonder.
...Madsen believes the unusual symptoms may be the result of “a very strong immunological reaction.” Acute infections can trigger clotting and bleeding, sometimes culminating in DIC, Wendtner notes. But abnormal clotting is also a feature of COVID-19. It’s possible, Wendtner says, that the unusual cases had a COVID-19 infection before they got vaccinated; many were health care workers and teachers who may have been exposed at work. Coming on top of the infection, the vaccine might somehow have triggered an overreaction by the immune system, sparking the clotting syndrome. Ganser thinks patients suffering from CVT may be the tip of the iceberg and that more people may suffer similar, but milder, symptoms.
If there really is a link between the vaccine and the blood disorders, Brodsky says a lot of evidence points to a crucial role for the complement system. Dysregulation of that system can lead to diseases that Brodsky terms “complemenopathies.” “What complementopathies have in common is: They all have thrombosis as part of it, they all have thrombocytopenia as part of it, they all have relative resistance to traditional anticoagulants and they all have triggers such as infections, inflammation, pregnancy, cancer, vaccines.”...
We know inflammatory immune responses to the vaccines tend to be stronger in younger individuals, so it might be a possible explanation of why Europe has noticed these small clusters of these peculiar symptoms and we haven't.
So it is 'surplus' production, and I would speculate that the reason we aren't getting it quite as quickly as hoped is that developing countries or India's own rollout are being correctly prioritised if there is a squeeze.
https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/uk-import-covid-19-vaccine-192804050.html
Premiums should have gone down across the board, due to the paucity of claims last year. Anecdote suggests this has happened at some insurers, but by no means all.
Which you can clear see within the NHS letter. As that is telling managers to redirect resources away from vaccinations (so they were clearly planning on Y vaccines being done) and I wonder what other decisions (such as lockdown dates) have been made on that basis.
https://twitter.com/kakape/status/1372337151770263555
You can see what the issue might be in the EU.....
Lord Beestonia
@Beeestonia
(But are you sure it's not a simple case of twenty odd European countries in their fanatical jealously of our governments genius getting together to try to do us damage?)
Nothing, nada, zilch to do with the EU.
It also seems that this matter won't rest - as I suspect all the dirty laundry of the employee (and the MP) is going to be corroborated and then published - as that person's reaction is not one of someone who does things in anger.
So the younger cohorts were well represented in the trial data.
Good morning, everyone.
But in this case, while probably a mistake, it's not completely irrational.
It was no surprise that, last Sunday, the centre-Right party that has dominated German politics since the war was routed at the polls. In elections for two states that were once its strongholds, Baden-Württemberg and Rhineland-Palatinate, the Christian Democrats finished a poor second, behind the Greens and the Social Democrats respectively."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/03/17/merkels-legacy-has-left-tatters/
The issue seems to be blots occurring if you have Covid (or have had Covid / long Covid?) and then have the vaccine.
At the time the trial was taking place it's very unlikely that that set of circumstances that seem to be the issue would occur - as most people hadn't had Covid or any chance of catching it, it was looking for the opposite and anyone with Covid was ruled out from the trial.
It's only now, a year later with Covid spreading around the general population and millions of people being vaccinated that the circumstances of being vaccinated while suffering from Covid is a real possibility.
These are very small numbers indeed - and the symptoms, while extremely rare, are known also to be associated with Covid itself - and while it's not unusual for rare side effects to show up after clinical trials, once a medication goes into general use, there is no conclusive evidence that these are vaccine side effects.
If I were due an AZN jab tomorrow, it wouldn't stop me getting it.
It will be interesting to see what the EMA has to say today.
That there's something to investigate is undeniable, but it needn't have halted vaccination, particularly in the higher risks cohorts.