The vaccine wars shouldn’t surprise us given how COVID has blighted life around the world – politica
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Individual countries could have opted out of the EU scheme within the EU. I expect those that might have done so politically, say Poland and Hungary had the least internal capability though.Malmesbury said:
Probably not.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
The problem is not the EU - though it's structure doesn't help. Nor the habit of some countries for using it as a place to promote-out-harms-way political titans such the ex-German Defence Minister. Who defeated Gavin Williamson for the Gavin Williamson Managerial Prize.
The problem is what happens when real shortages of really important things occur.
Would the UK Gov't been bold enough to do so ? Possibly, it's an open question though and there's an awful lot of pressure to fall in line within the EU.0 -
Err, no. Try again, maybe read the responses.Scott_xP said:So the answer to my questions about the UK vaccine response has been almost entirely "WHAT ABOUT THE EU? WAAAAAAAHHHHHH"
Thanks for playing, lads...
Or the VTF report. 🤦🏻♂️2 -
The UK response has been to subsidise AZ for a fully integrated UK supply chain and manufacturing for up to 20m doses per month of which the first 100m are reserved for the UK, to subsidise 180m domestic manufacturing capacity for Novavax and 200m manufacturing capacity for Valneva.Scott_xP said:
I asked about the UK response.MaxPB said:Because they fucked up their vaccine purchasing and are demanding our supply you complete and utter cretin.
You said I had to criticise the EU.
The latter has no bearing on the former.
Try again.
In addition the VTF used a distributed technogy strategy to ensure that all types of vaccines were covered in case one or two didn't work (see Sanofi and Merck).
It was and still is a world class response. If you can't see that or think it's easy then you're a complete numpty.5 -
I imagine he cut and pasted some banging twitter links.RobD said:
You’ve been provided with text and links describing the response in detail. Not our fault if you don’t actually want to engage on the topic.Scott_xP said:So the answer to my questions about the UK vaccine response has been almost entirely "WHAT ABOUT THE EU? WAAAAAAAHHHHHH"
Thanks for playing, lads...1 -
Their inability to back down means they continually double down.Floater said:https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1354745374297227265
The insanity continues (for clarity, I am not referencing our very own Scott)
I have expect them to investigate the factory and accidently do something that contaminates a batch2 -
You know approval is only one part of the story here. Moderna was approved outside of the EU's framework since we're no longer under the transition period and J&J will be the same. The EU didn't stop us, but it didn't help us.Scott_xP said:
https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1354751023617875969RH1992 said:Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the other coronavirus restrictions.
Reaching a deal with AZ back in May/June and pumping cash in to help development and production is exactly what was needed. It's not our fault that the EU took three months to discuss how best to portray this as a win for European unity before signing a contract.1 -
Oh great. Having a bunch of bureaucrats, who haven't the faintest idea about vaccine production, wandering about the factory asking dumb questions is a curious way to help AZ concentrate on overcoming the problems.Floater said:https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1354745374297227265
The insanity continues (for clarity, I am not referencing our very own Scott)2 -
#DefundSwayne
Or take away his knighthood.0 -
UK vaccine response to what? The gibberish you posted.Scott_xP said:So the answer to my questions about the UK vaccine response has been almost entirely "WHAT ABOUT THE EU? WAAAAAAAHHHHHH"
Thanks for playing, lads...
Currently it's a case of when the argument has nothing to do with you do nothing.
If and when the EU stops Pfizer from exporting to the UK and invades Wales to get UK AZN stock then we need to do something.0 -
That'll speed things up no end.....Floater said:https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1354745374297227265
The insanity continues (for clarity, I am not referencing our very own Scott)
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You don't have "partial immunity" with vaccines - you have immunity or not as an individual.LostPassword said:Yes, the government's performance on vaccinations is great. Taken in the round, when considering the investments made in development, it arguably merits the description of "world-leading".
However, I do worry that, because the government made such a mess of other aspects of the pandemic - self-isolation, contact-tracing, quarantine - that we have now created the ideal conditions (a high infection rate and people with partial vaccine-acquired immunity) for the virus to mutate to evade the vaccine.
Maybe we will get lucky. I certainly hope so.
In any event it will reduce the number of cases and hence the risk of mutations (approx 1 per million cases)0 -
It's completely mental. Wtf are they thinking, it's such an unnecessary distraction.Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh great. Having a bunch of bureaucrats, who haven't the faintest idea about vaccine production, wandering about the factory asking dumb questions is a curious way to help AZ concentrate on overcoming the problems.Floater said:https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1354745374297227265
The insanity continues (for clarity, I am not referencing our very own Scott)1 -
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The UK vaccine response has been absolutely awesome. Early contracts signed with multiple vendors, investment in local manufacturing, parallel processing of approvals, military resources assisting with logistics.Scott_xP said:So the answer to my questions about the UK vaccine response has been almost entirely "WHAT ABOUT THE EU? WAAAAAAAHHHHHH"
Thanks for playing, lads...
The result - third in the world of number of jabs in arms so far, with only the much larger USA and China ahead.
If you prefer per capita numbers, then also third in the world, behind two small and rich countries in Israel and UAE, well ahead of all other G20 and EU27 nations.
If one was being charitable, they might want to call it a world-beating programme. Arise Dame Kate Bingham.4 -
It is an interesting irony that the Curious, Spurious etc turned out to be a far better investment than the R class battleships.Carnyx said:
Battlecruisers. Edit: And the Glorious/Furious with their 18". Not to mention the Hood. Just to show what can go wrong with that approach ...Malmesbury said:
We want 8 vaccine factories and We Won't Wait!MattW said:
"Give me my Detonators ... er ... Battleships"CarlottaVance said:
Moderation in war is imbecility Jacky FisherPhilip_Thompson said:
Absolutely 100% this.CarlottaVance said:
From Kate Bingham in the VTF report:Richard_Nabavi said:I've been as enthusiastic at slagging off Dominic Cummings as the next man over the last year, but a thought occurred to me last night following our discussion here on the Vaccine Task Force. This initiative is, by a country mile, the very best ting this government has done, probably in fact the only thing it has done well. Not just 'well' in the normal sense of good governance, but something beyond what you can normally expect governments to achieve. Not only has it put us in an excellent position in terms of Covid vaccine availability, but it has also positioned the UK extremely well for what will undoubtedly be a renewed world emphasis on vaccine technology and production. And it has done it super-fast.
And how was it achieved? I find it awkward to admit this, but it's hard to avoid the conclusion that Cummings was behind it. It has all the hallmarks of his approach: by-passing the cumbersome workings of the normal Civil Service approach and instead get a small, talented, goal-focused team to super-charge the initiative. Of course it's an approach with great risks, but in this case also with an even greater pay-off.
Of course virtually the entire media coverage last year on the Vaccine Task Force was devoted to garbage about 'cronies' and 'sleaze'. The fact that this was a spectacular success was lost in the deluge of faux-indignation.
We might owe Cummings an apology...
We should recognise the flexibility and nimbleness of the civil service and the Ministers who balanced appropriate oversight and governance measures with respect to spending taxpayer money, with the making of big, difficult decisions at pace. Without this streamlining of decision making, it is unlikely that the VTF could have delivered this successful range of outcomes in such a short time.
Some people, I won't name names, have been relentlessly attacking the government and Bingham etc for not religiously abiding by oversight rules during the pandemic. But you can't and do it right.
Now it is coming home to roost. As was said last year when discussing this: you can have it cheap, right or fast - pick two out of three.
This needed to be done quickly, it needed to be done right. So by series of elimination ...
(TBF some of them were detonators)
The three of them formed the first homogenous aircraft carrier class in the world, and allowed the RN to start developing the methodologies for multi-carrier strike.
In WWII they were useful frontline ships, while great effort was expended in making sure the Rs never got too close to actual enemies.
Hood only went to fight Bismark because of timing. She was the only 30 knot battleship for a long time, in the RN. The plan was that by the time war was probable (1942 - the point where the German naval plans would be ready), the KGVs would be in service and the battlecruisers either scrapped or retained for fighting cruisers/commerce raiders.
But Hitler jumped the gun on his own plans.....1 -
Double down and double down again.eek said:
Their inability to back down means they continually double down.Floater said:https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1354745374297227265
The insanity continues (for clarity, I am not referencing our very own Scott)
I have expect them to investigate the factory and accidently do something that contaminates a batch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSs-O1ppxs41 -
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They had to get one thing right eventually, still no prizes 1/10 must try harder is best you could say on overall performance. We are still bottom of the league and destined to end there, hard to see many overtaking us.Sandpit said:.
The UK vaccine response has been absolutely awesome. Early contracts signed with multiple vendors, investment in local manufacturing, parallel processing of approvals, military resources assisting with logistics.Scott_xP said:So the answer to my questions about the UK vaccine response has been almost entirely "WHAT ABOUT THE EU? WAAAAAAAHHHHHH"
Thanks for playing, lads...
The result - third in the world of number of jabs in arms so far, with only the much larger USA and China ahead.
If you prefer per capita numbers, then also third in the world, behind two small and rich countries in Israel and UAE, well ahead of all other G20 and EU27 nations.
If one was being charitable, they might want to call it a world-beating programme. Arise Dame Kate Bingham.0 -
Ratesetter returns to full interest. Good sign, particularly for my relationship with my Dad...
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Fair comment. But at least if Governments can't do that, they can be sacked.RH1992 said:
Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
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Well quite. As all know we will be entangled with the EU forever, it's on the doorstep. They also talk about us, as they should, because they're not idiots.tlg86 said:
We're also not a member of the USA. Yet it doesn't stop people posting a constant stream of stuff about them on here.Scott_xP said:
Ummm, in case you hadn't noticed, we left the EU.Casino_Royale said:Even @williamglenn the biggest Europhile on this forum has criticised the EU over this.
Why would we care what they do?
My question was about the UK response. The whole point of Brexit according to some. Hold our own elected leaders accountable, right?0 -
Being serious it illustrates exactly the dilemma for Labour and the LDs if they want to fight for the Union. It may be a lost cause already but all 3 parties need to work together if they are to make a fight. Two or three separate campaigns will not win it.Theuniondivvie said:SKS thinks that there’s nothing more essential than defending the Union. Never doubted it for a minute.
https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/1354737588939194375?s=210 -
You’d prefer to see Scotland in the EU scheme then, rather than the UK scheme?malcolmg said:
They had to get one thing right eventually, still no prizes 1/10 must try harder is best you could say on overall performance. We are still bottom of the league and destined to end there, hard to see many overtaking us.Sandpit said:.
The UK vaccine response has been absolutely awesome. Early contracts signed with multiple vendors, investment in local manufacturing, parallel processing of approvals, military resources assisting with logistics.Scott_xP said:So the answer to my questions about the UK vaccine response has been almost entirely "WHAT ABOUT THE EU? WAAAAAAAHHHHHH"
Thanks for playing, lads...
The result - third in the world of number of jabs in arms so far, with only the much larger USA and China ahead.
If you prefer per capita numbers, then also third in the world, behind two small and rich countries in Israel and UAE, well ahead of all other G20 and EU27 nations.
If one was being charitable, they might want to call it a world-beating programme. Arise Dame Kate Bingham.1 -
Will be BJ be visiting the Valneva plant in Livingston today?Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh great. Having a bunch of bureaucrats, who haven't the faintest idea about vaccine production, wandering about the factory asking dumb questions is a curious way to help AZ concentrate on overcoming the problems.Floater said:https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1354745374297227265
The insanity continues (for clarity, I am not referencing our very own Scott)0 -
I presume the contract allows such a spot check so its fine, though in the context of very serious allegations being used as a distraction it looks like theater.Floater said:https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1354745374297227265
The insanity continues (for clarity, I am not referencing our very own Scott)1 -
Dame? Hereditary dukedom more like.Sandpit said:.
The UK vaccine response has been absolutely awesome. Early contracts signed with multiple vendors, investment in local manufacturing, parallel processing of approvals, military resources assisting with logistics.Scott_xP said:So the answer to my questions about the UK vaccine response has been almost entirely "WHAT ABOUT THE EU? WAAAAAAAHHHHHH"
Thanks for playing, lads...
The result - third in the world of number of jabs in arms so far, with only the much larger USA and China ahead.
If you prefer per capita numbers, then also third in the world, behind two small and rich countries in Israel and UAE, well ahead of all other G20 and EU27 nations.
If one was being charitable, they might want to call it a world-beating programme. Arise Dame Kate Bingham.3 -
Please sir, please sir, how can we North Britons sack this government?Luckyguy1983 said:
Fair comment. But at least if Governments can't do that, they can be sacked.RH1992 said:
Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
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LOL.Floater said:https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1354745374297227265
The insanity continues (for clarity, I am not referencing our very own Scott)
I see they've already hired their chief inspector.1 -
It's almost as if some don't want us to talk about how crap the EU has been.kle4 said:
Well quite. As all know we will be entangled with the EU forever, it's on the doorstep. They also talk about us, as they should, because they're not idiots.tlg86 said:
We're also not a member of the USA. Yet it doesn't stop people posting a constant stream of stuff about them on here.Scott_xP said:
Ummm, in case you hadn't noticed, we left the EU.Casino_Royale said:Even @williamglenn the biggest Europhile on this forum has criticised the EU over this.
Why would we care what they do?
My question was about the UK response. The whole point of Brexit according to some. Hold our own elected leaders accountable, right?3 -
Failed miserably in that enterprise then.RobD said:
It's almost as if some don't want us to talk about how crap the EU has been.kle4 said:
Well quite. As all know we will be entangled with the EU forever, it's on the doorstep. They also talk about us, as they should, because they're not idiots.tlg86 said:
We're also not a member of the USA. Yet it doesn't stop people posting a constant stream of stuff about them on here.Scott_xP said:
Ummm, in case you hadn't noticed, we left the EU.Casino_Royale said:Even @williamglenn the biggest Europhile on this forum has criticised the EU over this.
Why would we care what they do?
My question was about the UK response. The whole point of Brexit according to some. Hold our own elected leaders accountable, right?0 -
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Voting Labour would likely do the trick.Theuniondivvie said:
Please sir, please sir, how can we North Britons sack this government?Luckyguy1983 said:
Fair comment. But at least if Governments can't do that, they can be sacked.RH1992 said:
Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
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This argument over the UK vs EU vaccine performance does show one of the problems with the EU debate in the UK and the UK's inferiority complex.
The assumption is that, were the UK in the EU, it would have adopted the EU level of competence in vaccines. The possibility that UK involvement might have improved the EU response to our level is left unexamined.
Everyone would be better off now if British leadership in Europe had lead to the EU investing as much, per capita, in vaccine development and manufacturing capacity as invested by the UK alone.
But there's a lack of confidence in the UK's ability to lead and inspire, so we've always stood apart and sniped from the sidelines.0 -
Thing is, there was no compulsion to join the EU scheme, was there? Germany, Italy et al were reportedly about to sign their own joint contract with AZN, but switched that into the EU scheme (at commission request). The EU27 could instead have all done their own national deals (or smaller groups of countries deals) with the resulting bun-fight and, potentially, for the for-profit vaccine efforts (not for AZN where it's not for profit so there shouldn't be a great deal of movement other than pay more to get this factory built and we'll give you priority -are others than AZN not for profit?) higher prices from the competition. Germany, Italy and the other members of that group would likely be in a much better position now though, had they not allowed their scheme to become EU-wide, with the resultant delays.RH1992 said:
Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
So, the UK, within the EU, could have pursued the exact same vaccine procurement strategy that we did pursue? Allowing that there would have been political pressure to join the EU scheme. We could also have done early authorisation of AZN and Pfizer, before EMA (again, this happened when still under EU law during the transition).
Germany, Italy et al should perhaps have played hardball on the EU-ifying of the AZN procurement with something like:, ok, but we're signing in two weeks and we'll add any other countries that want to join, but you've got to decide by then to avoid the apparent faffing about.
What the EU should have done, is invested as a bloc in vaccine development early on, as individual countries (notably UK, US) did. Failing that, let individual countries invest and get perks for that investment from any EU-wide schemes that followed.
The situation is undoubtedly an EU failure, but (please correct me if wrong) being in the EU would not have prevented the UK from doing what it did. Other EU countries could also have done the same.1 -
It's rather more strategic genius than has been achieved in the EU. There I've used the word for you.Scott_xP said:
You could try reading the post.Slackbladder said:this means they didn't do anything.
They did something. They bought everything.
My question was where the strategic genius lies in that approach.
It didn't work for any other part of the response.1 -
Possibly but he won't be wandering around trying to figure out if they are working as hard as they can.Theuniondivvie said:
Will be BJ be visiting the Valneva plant in Livingston today?Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh great. Having a bunch of bureaucrats, who haven't the faintest idea about vaccine production, wandering about the factory asking dumb questions is a curious way to help AZ concentrate on overcoming the problems.Floater said:https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1354745374297227265
The insanity continues (for clarity, I am not referencing our very own Scott)
Anyway, which vaccine union would you prefer to be in? The UKs or the EUs.2 -
The dream of the EU has always been appealing but the reality, like all reality, let's it down.Anabobazina said:
No.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
Theres nothing wrong with thinking the dream stilĺ worth it despite the problems, even on this issue, so long as the problems in the EU are acknowledged so it can be improved. It probably is better for us to be in in the long run, but this has been a mess.
Complaining about people complaining about the EU is a different tactic though.1 -
I've no idea, but the Valneva plant is not currently a bottleneck.Theuniondivvie said:
Will be BJ be visiting the Valneva plant in Livingston today?Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh great. Having a bunch of bureaucrats, who haven't the faintest idea about vaccine production, wandering about the factory asking dumb questions is a curious way to help AZ concentrate on overcoming the problems.Floater said:https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1354745374297227265
The insanity continues (for clarity, I am not referencing our very own Scott)1 -
All credit to Boris for instructing the VTF to throw as much money as humanly possible at the vaccine effort.
I can't see just about any other PM being as forthright with their spending instructions - not May, not Jezza, not Jezza (the other one). And certainly the risk involved was not something the EU was likely or even able to do.
The situation was made for him as a general spaffer and on this occasion it was just what was needed.
It was a risk, as the VTF report says: "VTF’s strategy of striking early deals at risk...". But it paid off.4 -
If that’s what she would prefer, I don’t think anyone will stand in the way.RobD said:
Dame? Hereditary dukedom more like.Sandpit said:.
The UK vaccine response has been absolutely awesome. Early contracts signed with multiple vendors, investment in local manufacturing, parallel processing of approvals, military resources assisting with logistics.Scott_xP said:So the answer to my questions about the UK vaccine response has been almost entirely "WHAT ABOUT THE EU? WAAAAAAAHHHHHH"
Thanks for playing, lads...
The result - third in the world of number of jabs in arms so far, with only the much larger USA and China ahead.
If you prefer per capita numbers, then also third in the world, behind two small and rich countries in Israel and UAE, well ahead of all other G20 and EU27 nations.
If one was being charitable, they might want to call it a world-beating programme. Arise Dame Kate Bingham.
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We must (be seen to) do something!MaxPB said:
It's completely mental. Wtf are they thinking, it's such an unnecessary distraction.Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh great. Having a bunch of bureaucrats, who haven't the faintest idea about vaccine production, wandering about the factory asking dumb questions is a curious way to help AZ concentrate on overcoming the problems.Floater said:https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1354745374297227265
The insanity continues (for clarity, I am not referencing our very own Scott)
This is something!
We must do this!1 -
The fact they didn't speaks volumes. The internal pressure to present a unified front would have been, and likely was, enormous.Selebian said:
Thing is, there was no compulsion to join the EU scheme, was there? Germany, Italy et al were reportedly about to sign their own joint contract with AZN, but switched that into the EU scheme (at commission request). The EU27 could instead have all done their own national deals (or smaller groups of countries deals) with the resulting bun-fight and, potentially, for the for-profit vaccine efforts (not for AZN where it's not for profit so there shouldn't be a great deal of movement other than pay more to get this factory built and we'll give you priority -are others than AZN not for profit?) higher prices from the competition. Germany, Italy and the other members of that group would likely be in a much better position now though, had they not allowed their scheme to become EU-wide, with the resultant delays.RH1992 said:
Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
So, the UK, within the EU, could have pursued the exact same vaccine procurement strategy that we did pursue? Allowing that there would have been political pressure to join the EU scheme. We could also have done early authorisation of AZN and Pfizer, before EMA (again, this happened when still under EU law during the transition).
Germany, Italy et al should perhaps have played hardball on the EU-ifying of the AZN procurement with something like:, ok, but we're signing in two weeks and we'll add any other countries that want to join, but you've got to decide by then to avoid the apparent faffing about.
What the EU should have done, is invested as a bloc in vaccine development early on, as individual countries (notably UK, US) did. Failing that, let individual countries invest and get perks for that investment from any EU-wide schemes that followed.
The situation is undoubtedly an EU failure, but (please correct me if wrong) being in the EU would not have prevented the UK from doing what it did. Other EU countries could also have done the same.2 -
The vaccine apologist thinks that Swayne speaks on behalf of the government...... give me strength.
https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/13547498894319329322 -
Please enlighten me on the results of the last 4 GEs if every seat in Scotland had returned a Labour MP?RobD said:
Voting Labour would likely do the trick.Theuniondivvie said:
Please sir, please sir, how can we North Britons sack this government?Luckyguy1983 said:
Fair comment. But at least if Governments can't do that, they can be sacked.RH1992 said:
Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
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I think it was more a complete inability to explain the obvious to people who should have already known it.LostPassword said:This argument over the UK vs EU vaccine performance does show one of the problems with the EU debate in the UK and the UK's inferiority complex.
The assumption is that, were the UK in the EU, it would have adopted the EU level of competence in vaccines. The possibility that UK involvement might have improved the EU response to our level is left unexamined.
Everyone would be better off now if British leadership in Europe had lead to the EU investing as much, per capita, in vaccine development and manufacturing capacity as invested by the UK alone.
But there's a lack of confidence in the UK's ability to lead and inspire, so we've always stood apart and sniped from the sidelines.
We need vaccines ASAP. Which means don't mess around regarding price and indemnity and just work out who is likely to succeed and deliver and then give them the contracts and money that they need.
The EU instead followed their standard rulebook at a time when that rule book needed to be completely ignored.1 -
That's correct, and I think it's unlikely that any UK government would have joined their scheme. In fact, I rather suspect that other E27 countries, or the big ones at least, would not have joined the scheme were it not for the fact that Brexit was prompting them to emphasise their unity. Just a hunch, of course, but you can see the psychology.Selebian said:
Thing is, there was no compulsion to join the EU scheme, was there? Germany, Italy et al were reportedly about to sign their own joint contract with AZN, but switched that into the EU scheme (at commission request). The EU27 could instead have all done their own national deals (or smaller groups of countries deals) with the resulting bun-fight and, potentially, for the for-profit vaccine efforts (not for AZN where it's not for profit so there shouldn't be a great deal of movement other than pay more to get this factory built and we'll give you priority -are others than AZN not for profit?) higher prices from the competition. Germany, Italy and the other members of that group would likely be in a much better position now though, had they not allowed their scheme to become EU-wide, with the resultant delays.RH1992 said:
Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
So, the UK, within the EU, could have pursued the exact same vaccine procurement strategy that we did pursue? Allowing that there would have been political pressure to join the EU scheme. We could also have done early authorisation of AZN and Pfizer, before EMA (again, this happened when still under EU law during the transition).
Germany, Italy et al should perhaps have played hardball on the EU-ifying of the AZN procurement with something like:, ok, but we're signing in two weeks and we'll add any other countries that want to join, but you've got to decide by then to avoid the apparent faffing about.
What the EU should have done, is invested as a bloc in vaccine development early on, as individual countries (notably UK, US) did. Failing that, let individual countries invest and get perks for that investment from any EU-wide schemes that followed.
The situation is undoubtedly an EU failure, but (please correct me if wrong) being in the EU would not have prevented the UK from doing what it did. Other EU countries could also have done the same.2 -
You were asking how to vote out the present government. What has past elections got to do with it?Theuniondivvie said:
Please enlighten me on the results of the last 4 GEs if every seat in Scotland had returned a Labour MP?RobD said:
Voting Labour would likely do the trick.Theuniondivvie said:
Please sir, please sir, how can we North Britons sack this government?Luckyguy1983 said:
Fair comment. But at least if Governments can't do that, they can be sacked.RH1992 said:
Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
1 -
Aas with so many aspects of self determination, I would like my country to be able to choose.JonathanD said:
Possibly but he won't be wandering around trying to figure out if they are working as hard as they can.Theuniondivvie said:
Will be BJ be visiting the Valneva plant in Livingston today?Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh great. Having a bunch of bureaucrats, who haven't the faintest idea about vaccine production, wandering about the factory asking dumb questions is a curious way to help AZ concentrate on overcoming the problems.Floater said:https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1354745374297227265
The insanity continues (for clarity, I am not referencing our very own Scott)
Anyway, which vaccine union would you prefer to be in? The UKs or the EUs.0 -
Wasn't the SNP position that the UK should have been fully signed up members of the EU scheme?Theuniondivvie said:
Aas with so many aspects of self determination, I would like my country to be able to choose.JonathanD said:
Possibly but he won't be wandering around trying to figure out if they are working as hard as they can.Theuniondivvie said:
Will be BJ be visiting the Valneva plant in Livingston today?Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh great. Having a bunch of bureaucrats, who haven't the faintest idea about vaccine production, wandering about the factory asking dumb questions is a curious way to help AZ concentrate on overcoming the problems.Floater said:https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1354745374297227265
The insanity continues (for clarity, I am not referencing our very own Scott)
Anyway, which vaccine union would you prefer to be in? The UKs or the EUs.1 -
AIUI the UK would have been stopped from all the upfront investment in supply facilities under state aid rules. AFAIK NO other EU country has remotely done as much as the UK - and the entire EU has done LESS than the UK on vaccines for the Third World.Selebian said:
The situation is undoubtedly an EU failure, but (please correct me if wrong) being in the EU would not have prevented the UK from doing what it did. Other EU countries could also have done the same.RH1992 said:
Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
3 -
Could have been better phrased. 600m reduction in state pensions payments might have been better, it is a cold fact that should be reported.Theuniondivvie said:0 -
The SNP’s Shadow Brexit Secretary Dr Philippa Whitford MP said: “At a time when the UK should be accelerating efforts to work with our EU partners towards finding a vaccine, it is concerning that the UK government has instead rejected the opportunity to take part in yet another EU-wide programme.RobD said:
Wasn't the SNP position that the UK should have been fully signed up members of the EU scheme?Theuniondivvie said:
Aas with so many aspects of self determination, I would like my country to be able to choose.JonathanD said:
Possibly but he won't be wandering around trying to figure out if they are working as hard as they can.Theuniondivvie said:
Will be BJ be visiting the Valneva plant in Livingston today?Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh great. Having a bunch of bureaucrats, who haven't the faintest idea about vaccine production, wandering about the factory asking dumb questions is a curious way to help AZ concentrate on overcoming the problems.Floater said:https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1354745374297227265
The insanity continues (for clarity, I am not referencing our very own Scott)
Anyway, which vaccine union would you prefer to be in? The UKs or the EUs.
“The UK government’s short-sighted and increasingly isolationist approach does nothing but hinder the ability to tackle the virus effectively."
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18576012.critics-hit-matt-hancock-confirms-britain-will-not-join-eu-covid-vaccine-purchase-scheme/3 -
Interesting. So state aid rules would have prevented the VTF from doing its thing?CarlottaVance said:
AIUI the UK would have been stopped from all the upfront investment in supply facilities under state aid rules. AFAIK NO other EU country has remotely done as much as the UK - and the entire EU has done LESS than the UK on vaccines for the Third World.Selebian said:
The situation is undoubtedly an EU failure, but (please correct me if wrong) being in the EU would not have prevented the UK from doing what it did. Other EU countries could also have done the same.RH1992 said:
Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
0 -
Dave Keating is not the best journalist around. He often takes the most extreme examples and generalises them in order to make his preferred point.RH1992 said:The vaccine apologist thinks that Swayne speaks on behalf of the government...... give me strength.
https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/13547498894319329321 -
I prefer a government that is handling the crisis sensibly and efficiently. Over 100,000 dead and heading to 150,000 is not AWESOME as you put it. They got one thing right and your pathetic whining snivelling response shows what an absolute bellend you are. If you think this lot have done well on the Covid pandemic then you are easily pleased. I personally am not a slavish cult member and happy to say Scottish government have done badly as well , not as bad as UK and partly due to having to beg from Westminster but still bad overall.Sandpit said:
You’d prefer to see Scotland in the EU scheme then, rather than the UK scheme?malcolmg said:
They had to get one thing right eventually, still no prizes 1/10 must try harder is best you could say on overall performance. We are still bottom of the league and destined to end there, hard to see many overtaking us.Sandpit said:.
The UK vaccine response has been absolutely awesome. Early contracts signed with multiple vendors, investment in local manufacturing, parallel processing of approvals, military resources assisting with logistics.Scott_xP said:So the answer to my questions about the UK vaccine response has been almost entirely "WHAT ABOUT THE EU? WAAAAAAAHHHHHH"
Thanks for playing, lads...
The result - third in the world of number of jabs in arms so far, with only the much larger USA and China ahead.
If you prefer per capita numbers, then also third in the world, behind two small and rich countries in Israel and UAE, well ahead of all other G20 and EU27 nations.
If one was being charitable, they might want to call it a world-beating programme. Arise Dame Kate Bingham.
Posing pathetic questions shows me you do realise how badly your heroes have done but you are such a slavish cult member you cannot admit it.0 -
At the very least I can see production halted for several days while the pen pushers check spots!eek said:
Their inability to back down means they continually double down.Floater said:https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1354745374297227265
The insanity continues (for clarity, I am not referencing our very own Scott)
I have expect them to investigate the factory and accidently do something that contaminates a batch0 -
It did.Theuniondivvie said:
Aas with so many aspects of self determination, I would like my country to be able to choose.JonathanD said:
Possibly but he won't be wandering around trying to figure out if they are working as hard as they can.Theuniondivvie said:
Will be BJ be visiting the Valneva plant in Livingston today?Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh great. Having a bunch of bureaucrats, who haven't the faintest idea about vaccine production, wandering about the factory asking dumb questions is a curious way to help AZ concentrate on overcoming the problems.Floater said:https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1354745374297227265
The insanity continues (for clarity, I am not referencing our very own Scott)
Anyway, which vaccine union would you prefer to be in? The UKs or the EUs.
2 million of your countrymen voted to remain in the UK.
400,000 more than voted to remain in the EU.
3 -
If 'keep on voting Labour just in case, I know it hasn't worked the last 4 times but we might get rid of these cnuts' sound pretty ropey coming from a Labourite, it's pitiful from a PB Tory.RobD said:
You were asking how to vote out the present government. What has past elections got to do with it?Theuniondivvie said:
Please enlighten me on the results of the last 4 GEs if every seat in Scotland had returned a Labour MP?RobD said:
Voting Labour would likely do the trick.Theuniondivvie said:
Please sir, please sir, how can we North Britons sack this government?Luckyguy1983 said:
Fair comment. But at least if Governments can't do that, they can be sacked.RH1992 said:
Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
0 -
No, we were still subject to the EU state aid rules.TOPPING said:
Interesting. So state aid rules would have prevented the VTF from doing its thing?CarlottaVance said:
AIUI the UK would have been stopped from all the upfront investment in supply facilities under state aid rules. AFAIK NO other EU country has remotely done as much as the UK - and the entire EU has done LESS than the UK on vaccines for the Third World.Selebian said:
The situation is undoubtedly an EU failure, but (please correct me if wrong) being in the EU would not have prevented the UK from doing what it did. Other EU countries could also have done the same.RH1992 said:
Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
1 -
I bet Corbyn is feeling just the same. Sees the sky turning blue and the eyes in his head see it all coming true.MarqueeMark said:
Cummings' time has come after he has gone. The curse of the true visionary....MaxPB said:
Even if it is done legally through some odd quirk of rules, it doesn't make it not completely stupid.Malmesbury said:
Well, it depends how they did it. It gets technical, but they seem to have done an end run around the rules.TOPPING said:
Ah. I haven't been following particularly closely, just saw @Charles' post - and thought the issue was the ramping of the stock. If they were naked shorts then yes of course that's illegal.Malmesbury said:
If the reports that the shorts are naked and over 100% are correct, the market abuse is the short sellers. Not those holding contracts and shares.
The suggestion that shares should be loaned without the consent of the owner, just so that the hedges can play with them, is particularly risible.1 -
It's like how all backbenchers become senior when quoted in newspapers. Random comments are hugely significant when we want them to be, and if we dont it's just some nobody MP or MEP.RH1992 said:The vaccine apologist thinks that Swayne speaks on behalf of the government...... give me strength
1 -
Daily Mail picked it up noweek said:
Their inability to back down means they continually double down.Floater said:https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1354745374297227265
The insanity continues (for clarity, I am not referencing our very own Scott)
I have expect them to investigate the factory and accidently do something that contaminates a batch
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9196445/MEPs-threaten-TRADE-WAR-UK-vaccine-supplies.html0 -
Like I said, what have the past elections got to do with it? Labour are much more popular now, so it is likely those seats will make a difference (not to mention the negative campaigning associated with pockets).Theuniondivvie said:
Though 'keep on voting Labour just in case, I know it hasn't worked the last 4 times but we might get rid of these cnuts' sound pretty ropey coming from a Labourite, it's pitiful from a PB Tory.RobD said:
You were asking how to vote out the present government. What has past elections got to do with it?Theuniondivvie said:
Please enlighten me on the results of the last 4 GEs if every seat in Scotland had returned a Labour MP?RobD said:
Voting Labour would likely do the trick.Theuniondivvie said:
Please sir, please sir, how can we North Britons sack this government?Luckyguy1983 said:
Fair comment. But at least if Governments can't do that, they can be sacked.RH1992 said:
Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
0 -
Some say the EU AZ order was held up for 3 months because Macron wanted a big order for Sanofi....if we ever get to the bottom of it.....TOPPING said:
Interesting. So state aid rules would have prevented the VTF from doing its thing?CarlottaVance said:
AIUI the UK would have been stopped from all the upfront investment in supply facilities under state aid rules. AFAIK NO other EU country has remotely done as much as the UK - and the entire EU has done LESS than the UK on vaccines for the Third World.Selebian said:
The situation is undoubtedly an EU failure, but (please correct me if wrong) being in the EU would not have prevented the UK from doing what it did. Other EU countries could also have done the same.RH1992 said:
Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
2 -
No, that doesn't hold water because our scheme depended on direct manufacturing subsidies for the pharma industry.LostPassword said:This argument over the UK vs EU vaccine performance does show one of the problems with the EU debate in the UK and the UK's inferiority complex.
The assumption is that, were the UK in the EU, it would have adopted the EU level of competence in vaccines. The possibility that UK involvement might have improved the EU response to our level is left unexamined.
Everyone would be better off now if British leadership in Europe had lead to the EU investing as much, per capita, in vaccine development and manufacturing capacity as invested by the UK alone.
But there's a lack of confidence in the UK's ability to lead and inspire, so we've always stood apart and sniped from the sidelines.
The main issue is that the EU scheme became EU money so subsidies were avoided because it leads to completely interminable arguments about who gets what money and which companies should benefit rather than which vaccines are most likely to work. For example, would the EU have stepped in to subsidise Pfizer or J&J, American companies in the same way that the UK has done with Novavax (American) and Valneva (French). The ructions over giving EU subsidy money to American or British companies but not French or German ones would have turned into something that needed one minute to midnight compromises and summits.
The minute something becomes EU money it quickly turns into a mess as there are 27 agendas for how to spend that money. We already saw that with France supposedly blocking more purchases of the "German" vaccine that we knew worked because the "French" vaccine that we weren't sure about had to have the same purchase levels.
So no, being in the scheme wouldn't have brought them to our level, we'd be stuck at their level haggling over price and hoping that the pharma industry makes the right levels of investment to meet production targets rather than ensuring it with subsidies.4 -
'Your countrymen'?CarlottaVance said:
It did.Theuniondivvie said:
Aas with so many aspects of self determination, I would like my country to be able to choose.JonathanD said:
Possibly but he won't be wandering around trying to figure out if they are working as hard as they can.Theuniondivvie said:
Will be BJ be visiting the Valneva plant in Livingston today?Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh great. Having a bunch of bureaucrats, who haven't the faintest idea about vaccine production, wandering about the factory asking dumb questions is a curious way to help AZ concentrate on overcoming the problems.Floater said:https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1354745374297227265
The insanity continues (for clarity, I am not referencing our very own Scott)
Anyway, which vaccine union would you prefer to be in? The UKs or the EUs.
2 million of your countrymen voted to remain in the UK.
400,000 more than voted to remain in the EU.
Fair play for at last accepting your irrelevance to the process.1 -
That's a good point, if applicable. I don't know whether that would have been the case or where the line is drawn - you can of course get research funds, more problematic with direct funding, but how about with funding which is tied to delivery of vaccines - after all NHS contracts for pharmaceuticals all the time.CarlottaVance said:
AIUI the UK would have been stopped from all the upfront investment in supply facilities under state aid rules. AFAIK NO other EU country has remotely done as much as the UK - and the entire EU has done LESS than the UK on vaccines for the Third World.Selebian said:
The situation is undoubtedly an EU failure, but (please correct me if wrong) being in the EU would not have prevented the UK from doing what it did. Other EU countries could also have done the same.RH1992 said:
Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
Did Germany not invest in BioNTech/Pfizer or was that simply research funding.
Also, were we not under state aid rules still during the transition? Genuine question, I would have assumed that we were.0 -
Sounds like he will be very well paid, as that is what the public enjoy and therefore advertisers demand. We see it every day on here too.Andy_JS said:
Dave Keating is not the best journalist around. He often takes the most extreme examples and generalises them in order to make his preferred point.RH1992 said:The vaccine apologist thinks that Swayne speaks on behalf of the government...... give me strength.
https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/13547498894319329321 -
I think given how highly the EU prizes unity there would be immense pressure for countries not to do their own thing. Thats a relevant factor, though potential to diverge if possible is still important.Selebian said:
Thing is, there was no compulsion to join the EU scheme, was there? Germany, Italy et al were reportedly about to sign their own joint contract with AZN, but switched that into the EU scheme (at commission request). The EU27 could instead have all done their own national deals (or smaller groups of countries deals) with the resulting bun-fight and, potentially, for the for-profit vaccine efforts (not for AZN where it's not for profit so there shouldn't be a great deal of movement other than pay more to get this factory built and we'll give you priority -are others than AZN not for profit?) higher prices from the competition. Germany, Italy and the other members of that group would likely be in a much better position now though, had they not allowed their scheme to become EU-wide, with the resultant delays.RH1992 said:
Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
So, the UK, within the EU, could have pursued the exact same vaccine procurement strategy that we did pursue? Allowing that there would have been political pressure to join the EU scheme. We could also have done early authorisation of AZN and Pfizer, before EMA (again, this happened when still under EU law during the transition).
Germany, Italy et al should perhaps have played hardball on the EU-ifying of the AZN procurement with something like:, ok, but we're signing in two weeks and we'll add any other countries that want to join, but you've got to decide by then to avoid the apparent faffing about.
What the EU should have done, is invested as a bloc in vaccine development early on, as individual countries (notably UK, US) did. Failing that, let individual countries invest and get perks for that investment from any EU-wide schemes that followed.
The situation is undoubtedly an EU failure, but (please correct me if wrong) being in the EU would not have prevented the UK from doing what it did. Other EU countries could also have done the same.0 -
Sky headlining their news with Swayne.
Is that seriously the #1 story today? WTF?
Downing Street must be considering withdrawing the whip. What a farce.1 -
People should be looking at Spiked instead to avoid that kind of thing.Andy_JS said:
Dave Keating is not the best journalist around. He often takes the most extreme examples and generalises them in order to make his preferred point.RH1992 said:The vaccine apologist thinks that Swayne speaks on behalf of the government...... give me strength.
https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/13547498894319329320 -
No, it's the interminable arguments over who gets what money and all the horrible bureaucracy that comes with it. They were already months late, now add in arguments about where the subsidy money goes int the equation. They'd probably still be arguing about it.TOPPING said:
Interesting. So state aid rules would have prevented the VTF from doing its thing?CarlottaVance said:
AIUI the UK would have been stopped from all the upfront investment in supply facilities under state aid rules. AFAIK NO other EU country has remotely done as much as the UK - and the entire EU has done LESS than the UK on vaccines for the Third World.Selebian said:
The situation is undoubtedly an EU failure, but (please correct me if wrong) being in the EU would not have prevented the UK from doing what it did. Other EU countries could also have done the same.RH1992 said:
Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
3 -
I saw one of their Facebook ads the other day saying how much better it was that the EU 27 was united on their approach to Covid Vaccine - the comments beneath were interesting!RobD said:
The fact they didn't speaks volumes. The internal pressure to present a unified front would have been, and likely was, enormous.Selebian said:
Thing is, there was no compulsion to join the EU scheme, was there? Germany, Italy et al were reportedly about to sign their own joint contract with AZN, but switched that into the EU scheme (at commission request). The EU27 could instead have all done their own national deals (or smaller groups of countries deals) with the resulting bun-fight and, potentially, for the for-profit vaccine efforts (not for AZN where it's not for profit so there shouldn't be a great deal of movement other than pay more to get this factory built and we'll give you priority -are others than AZN not for profit?) higher prices from the competition. Germany, Italy and the other members of that group would likely be in a much better position now though, had they not allowed their scheme to become EU-wide, with the resultant delays.RH1992 said:
Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
So, the UK, within the EU, could have pursued the exact same vaccine procurement strategy that we did pursue? Allowing that there would have been political pressure to join the EU scheme. We could also have done early authorisation of AZN and Pfizer, before EMA (again, this happened when still under EU law during the transition).
Germany, Italy et al should perhaps have played hardball on the EU-ifying of the AZN procurement with something like:, ok, but we're signing in two weeks and we'll add any other countries that want to join, but you've got to decide by then to avoid the apparent faffing about.
What the EU should have done, is invested as a bloc in vaccine development early on, as individual countries (notably UK, US) did. Failing that, let individual countries invest and get perks for that investment from any EU-wide schemes that followed.
The situation is undoubtedly an EU failure, but (please correct me if wrong) being in the EU would not have prevented the UK from doing what it did. Other EU countries could also have done the same.0 -
Be on soon pretending to be ScottishTheuniondivvie said:
'Your countrymen'?CarlottaVance said:
It did.Theuniondivvie said:
Aas with so many aspects of self determination, I would like my country to be able to choose.JonathanD said:
Possibly but he won't be wandering around trying to figure out if they are working as hard as they can.Theuniondivvie said:
Will be BJ be visiting the Valneva plant in Livingston today?Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh great. Having a bunch of bureaucrats, who haven't the faintest idea about vaccine production, wandering about the factory asking dumb questions is a curious way to help AZ concentrate on overcoming the problems.Floater said:https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1354745374297227265
The insanity continues (for clarity, I am not referencing our very own Scott)
Anyway, which vaccine union would you prefer to be in? The UKs or the EUs.
2 million of your countrymen voted to remain in the UK.
400,000 more than voted to remain in the EU.
Fair play for at last accepting your irrelevance to the process.0 -
I actually doubt that. Canada, the US, and the UK all placed big orders for the Sanofi/GSK jab, which in the early days was thought to be one of the most likely to be successful.CarlottaVance said:
Some say the EU AZ order was held up for 3 months because Macron wanted a big order for Sanofi....if we ever get to the bottom of it.....TOPPING said:
Interesting. So state aid rules would have prevented the VTF from doing its thing?CarlottaVance said:
AIUI the UK would have been stopped from all the upfront investment in supply facilities under state aid rules. AFAIK NO other EU country has remotely done as much as the UK - and the entire EU has done LESS than the UK on vaccines for the Third World.Selebian said:
The situation is undoubtedly an EU failure, but (please correct me if wrong) being in the EU would not have prevented the UK from doing what it did. Other EU countries could also have done the same.RH1992 said:
Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
0 -
Encouraging news
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55839493
"Black MPs from across the parties have joined together in a video encouraging people to get the coronavirus vaccine. The Office for National Statistics has found all ethnic minority groups, other than Chinese, are more likely to die from the virus than white people. But a study suggests black people over 80 are half as likely to get the vaccine."4 -
He'll go very far in that case.Andy_JS said:
Dave Keating is not the best journalist around. He often takes the most extreme examples and generalises them in order to make his preferred point.RH1992 said:The vaccine apologist thinks that Swayne speaks on behalf of the government...... give me strength.
https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/13547498894319329320 -
I suppose the question is could we have done what we did within the EU or did we specifically go against any EU reg or law to do it.MaxPB said:
No, it's the interminable arguments over who gets what money and all the horrible bureaucracy that comes with it. They were already months late, now add in arguments about where the subsidy money goes int the equation. They'd probably still be arguing about it.TOPPING said:
Interesting. So state aid rules would have prevented the VTF from doing its thing?CarlottaVance said:
AIUI the UK would have been stopped from all the upfront investment in supply facilities under state aid rules. AFAIK NO other EU country has remotely done as much as the UK - and the entire EU has done LESS than the UK on vaccines for the Third World.Selebian said:
The situation is undoubtedly an EU failure, but (please correct me if wrong) being in the EU would not have prevented the UK from doing what it did. Other EU countries could also have done the same.RH1992 said:
Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
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It might but for many of working age the fear of redundancy and actual joblessness could override it.anothernick said:https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1354742161804324873
The vaccine bounce will be along later.0 -
Nats & sums, eh?Theuniondivvie said:
'Your countrymen'?CarlottaVance said:
It did.Theuniondivvie said:
Aas with so many aspects of self determination, I would like my country to be able to choose.JonathanD said:
Possibly but he won't be wandering around trying to figure out if they are working as hard as they can.Theuniondivvie said:
Will be BJ be visiting the Valneva plant in Livingston today?Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh great. Having a bunch of bureaucrats, who haven't the faintest idea about vaccine production, wandering about the factory asking dumb questions is a curious way to help AZ concentrate on overcoming the problems.Floater said:https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1354745374297227265
The insanity continues (for clarity, I am not referencing our very own Scott)
Anyway, which vaccine union would you prefer to be in? The UKs or the EUs.
2 million of your countrymen voted to remain in the UK.
400,000 more than voted to remain in the EU.
Fair play for at last accepting your irrelevance to the process.
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https://twitter.com/bellacaledonia/status/1354757060852899846?s=20
Glaswegians give opinion on the huge ass
et
https://twitter.com/gedfitzfilm/status/1354729401301282818?s=201 -
Having said that this true blue Tory would have to admit that Swayne is the epitome of the swivel-headed loon!kle4 said:
It's like how all backbenchers become senior when quoted in newspapers. Random comments are hugely significant when we want them to be, and if we dont it's just some nobody MP or MEP.RH1992 said:The vaccine apologist thinks that Swayne speaks on behalf of the government...... give me strength
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Not sure about 2010, though it would have made a Labour/Lib dem coalition more doable.Theuniondivvie said:
Please enlighten me on the results of the last 4 GEs if every seat in Scotland had returned a Labour MP?RobD said:
Voting Labour would likely do the trick.Theuniondivvie said:
Please sir, please sir, how can we North Britons sack this government?Luckyguy1983 said:
Fair comment. But at least if Governments can't do that, they can be sacked.RH1992 said:
Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
2015 More likely that Miliband would have survived, so no Corbyn and possibly a different outcome of the Brexit vote.
2017 May out, probably Corbyn as PM.
2019 No difference, except that Corbyn might have hung on.0 -
I seem to recall that was denied, but it would be explosive if it is proven, a blatantly avoidable mess caused by politics.CarlottaVance said:
Some say the EU AZ order was held up for 3 months because Macron wanted a big order for Sanofi....if we ever get to the bottom of it.....TOPPING said:
Interesting. So state aid rules would have prevented the VTF from doing its thing?CarlottaVance said:
AIUI the UK would have been stopped from all the upfront investment in supply facilities under state aid rules. AFAIK NO other EU country has remotely done as much as the UK - and the entire EU has done LESS than the UK on vaccines for the Third World.Selebian said:
The situation is undoubtedly an EU failure, but (please correct me if wrong) being in the EU would not have prevented the UK from doing what it did. Other EU countries could also have done the same.RH1992 said:
Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
0 -
Point 3 is of particular interest for the future and sounds like a very good idea.CarlottaVance said:For those who missed it yesterday - Mr Navabi posted the link to the report:
UK Vaccine Taskforce 2020 Achievements and Future Strategy
End of year report
1. VTF has built an attractive portfolio of the most promising vaccines for the UK population
The VTF’s strategy to build a diverse portfolio of vaccines across different formats gives the UK the greatest chance of providing a safe and effective vaccine, recognising that many of these vaccines in development may fail. The VTF focused on vaccines that could be in the clinic in 2020, which could be manufactured at scale preferably in the UK, which had the potential to secure rapid regulatory approval and be delivered ready for deployment as rapidly as possible.
2. VTF has shaped new collaborative arrangements to ensure that successful vaccines will be distributed internationally
The COVID-19 Vaccines Global Access facility (COVAX), to which the UK has made up to £548 million available, will provide access to vaccines for lower income countries including one billion doses for developing countries worldwide. The UK through the VTF has helped to develop the COVAX facility and has shared its expertise and people with COVAX to support their global efforts.
3. VTF has supported the UK’s industrial strategy by reinforcing long-term vaccine capability to prepare the UK for future pandemics, helping to place the UK at the forefront of vaccine R&D, manufacturing and distribution, but more is needed
One of the most interesting and imaginative aspects of the VTF’s work lies in the plans it has laid for future resilience and industrial leadership in this vital area. The VTF has provided targeted funding and focus across three broad areas that support the UK’s long-term pandemic preparedness.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/944308/VTF_Interim_report_-_5th_publication.pdf
Notably the UK, with about one seventh the population of the EU has contributed substantially more to COVAX than the EU has, so fewer sermons on "we're all in this together" from UVDL might be in order
Re Cummings, I was approached anonymously last year by someone claiming that the Barnard Castle trip was all about meetings with Glaxo Smith Kline and not eye trips or whatever. No idea whether that is true but it is certainly the case that GSK has a facility there and it might fit in with your theory that Cummings may have had a part to play.
It would be fascinating to get the full story behind all this one day. Some aspects have been handled badly - process does matter, especially when you are developing a reputation for sleaze - but imaginative and far-seeing thinking about what will be needed combined with the very best of the NHS seems to have resulted so far in a good outcome on the pharmaceutical / vaccine side. So I was too quick to criticise the government over the Bingham appointment. Hands up on that. It seems that she has provided valuable input - especially re investment in future biotech stars (her expertise), whatever other criticisms might be made around government processes. I wonder why the government appeared to hang her out to dry last year.
Quite impressed that the PM has not risen to the bait and been all Brexity about this, despite a stupid question from Peter Bone in the Commons yesterday.
And nor should anyone else be. If European countries don't get vaccines people will die. These are our friends, neighbours and, in my case, my relatives - some of whom are elderly and vulnerable - in Italy, Ireland, France and Spain. I no more want them to suffer just so that some idiot politician or commentator can make a stupid point than I want to be bumped down the priority list because Labour wants to get votes from fit 30-year old teachers.
Talking of which the GP here was all ready to start vaccinating priority groups 5 & 6 here (which I'm in) this week but the North West has had it supply of vaccines reduced. Annoying. Hearing how it is affecting son and hubby has made me (a) more scared of catching it and (b) even more determined to hide away until I'm vaccinated. At this rate, I will have lost the power of speech by the time I'm allowed out of the house.
6 -
We could have, definitely. It would have been politically very difficult to not be in the EU scheme though so I don't think we would have. Indeed, if we were still EU members with out own scheme outside of the EU one the calls for "unity" from the British to share vaccines would be even greater than they are now.TOPPING said:
I suppose the question is could we have done what we did within the EU or did we specifically go against any EU reg or law to do it.MaxPB said:
No, it's the interminable arguments over who gets what money and all the horrible bureaucracy that comes with it. They were already months late, now add in arguments about where the subsidy money goes int the equation. They'd probably still be arguing about it.TOPPING said:
Interesting. So state aid rules would have prevented the VTF from doing its thing?CarlottaVance said:
AIUI the UK would have been stopped from all the upfront investment in supply facilities under state aid rules. AFAIK NO other EU country has remotely done as much as the UK - and the entire EU has done LESS than the UK on vaccines for the Third World.Selebian said:
The situation is undoubtedly an EU failure, but (please correct me if wrong) being in the EU would not have prevented the UK from doing what it did. Other EU countries could also have done the same.RH1992 said:
Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
I know you're being obtuse on this and thing to get to technicalities to weasel out of criticising the EU, but you need to face up to it, the EU has completely shat the bed.0 -
There's a parallel universe in which Remain won in 2016 and our government went with the EU scheme.
PM Farage nailed on.1 -
https://www.timesofisrael.com/vaccine-found-92-effective-in-israel-in-first-controlled-result-outside-trials/
pfizer 92% effective starting 7 days after shot 2.1 -
I feel like that statement can be interpreted in several ways and he probably knows it. The SNP probably agree Boris is an asset, of sorts, for Scotland to achieve certain things.Theuniondivvie said:
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Were we not still in when the investment happened?CarlottaVance said:AIUI the UK would have been stopped from all the upfront investment in supply facilities under state aid rules. AFAIK NO other EU country has remotely done as much as the UK - and the entire EU has done LESS than the UK on vaccines for the Third World.
0 -
Vaccine Nationalism. The same nationalism as cause of the Irish Potato Famine.tlg86 said:There's a parallel universe in which Remain won in 2016 and our government went with the EU scheme.
PM Farage nailed on.
In terms of politics, reactionary, short termist and very bad.
In terms of morality, unchristian.
In terms of history, repeating the same mistakes as Empire.
Boris Johnson and supporters of his vaccine nationalism on here, all those things.0 -
Some on here will be very pleased to hear that Inghams have just cancelled my skiing trip to Italy in March. Not a surprise! I'm offered cash or refund.1
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They have been shocking. But as with so much we have seen, we could have done exactly what we did while still being in the EU (cf exporting to the US, Tonga, The Dutch Antilles, etc).MaxPB said:
We could have, definitely. It would have been politically very difficult to not be in the EU scheme though so I don't think we would have. Indeed, if we were still EU members with out own scheme outside of the EU one the calls for "unity" from the British to share vaccines would be even greater than they are now.TOPPING said:
I suppose the question is could we have done what we did within the EU or did we specifically go against any EU reg or law to do it.MaxPB said:
No, it's the interminable arguments over who gets what money and all the horrible bureaucracy that comes with it. They were already months late, now add in arguments about where the subsidy money goes int the equation. They'd probably still be arguing about it.TOPPING said:
Interesting. So state aid rules would have prevented the VTF from doing its thing?CarlottaVance said:
AIUI the UK would have been stopped from all the upfront investment in supply facilities under state aid rules. AFAIK NO other EU country has remotely done as much as the UK - and the entire EU has done LESS than the UK on vaccines for the Third World.Selebian said:
The situation is undoubtedly an EU failure, but (please correct me if wrong) being in the EU would not have prevented the UK from doing what it did. Other EU countries could also have done the same.RH1992 said:
Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.Chris said:Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?
I know you're being obtuse on this and thing to get to technicalities to weasel out of criticising the EU, but you need to face up to it, the EU has completely shat the bed.
And as with @Philip_Thompson yesterday dismissing "the contract", yes absolutely I want to get to "technicalities" as that determines the whole issue.
Your literal "could have, would have, if we were, would be..." supposition doesn't cut it.0 -
Unless following the purported Scottish referendum win for leave and subsequent successful negotiation to join the EU comes with a free time machine, the question of the union and the vaccine are entirely unrelated.Sandpit said:
You’d prefer to see Scotland in the EU scheme then, rather than the UK scheme?malcolmg said:
They had to get one thing right eventually, still no prizes 1/10 must try harder is best you could say on overall performance. We are still bottom of the league and destined to end there, hard to see many overtaking us.Sandpit said:.
The UK vaccine response has been absolutely awesome. Early contracts signed with multiple vendors, investment in local manufacturing, parallel processing of approvals, military resources assisting with logistics.Scott_xP said:So the answer to my questions about the UK vaccine response has been almost entirely "WHAT ABOUT THE EU? WAAAAAAAHHHHHH"
Thanks for playing, lads...
The result - third in the world of number of jabs in arms so far, with only the much larger USA and China ahead.
If you prefer per capita numbers, then also third in the world, behind two small and rich countries in Israel and UAE, well ahead of all other G20 and EU27 nations.
If one was being charitable, they might want to call it a world-beating programme. Arise Dame Kate Bingham.0 -
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It's much easier to keep your calm when others are losing theirs right in front of you.Cyclefree said:
Quite impressed that the PM has not risen to the bait and been all Brexity about this, despite a stupid question from Peter Bone in the Commons yesterday.CarlottaVance said:For those who missed it yesterday - Mr Navabi posted the link to the report:
UK Vaccine Taskforce 2020 Achievements and Future Strategy
End of year report
1. VTF has built an attractive portfolio of the most promising vaccines for the UK population
The VTF’s strategy to build a diverse portfolio of vaccines across different formats gives the UK the greatest chance of providing a safe and effective vaccine, recognising that many of these vaccines in development may fail. The VTF focused on vaccines that could be in the clinic in 2020, which could be manufactured at scale preferably in the UK, which had the potential to secure rapid regulatory approval and be delivered ready for deployment as rapidly as possible.
2. VTF has shaped new collaborative arrangements to ensure that successful vaccines will be distributed internationally
The COVID-19 Vaccines Global Access facility (COVAX), to which the UK has made up to £548 million available, will provide access to vaccines for lower income countries including one billion doses for developing countries worldwide. The UK through the VTF has helped to develop the COVAX facility and has shared its expertise and people with COVAX to support their global efforts.
3. VTF has supported the UK’s industrial strategy by reinforcing long-term vaccine capability to prepare the UK for future pandemics, helping to place the UK at the forefront of vaccine R&D, manufacturing and distribution, but more is needed
One of the most interesting and imaginative aspects of the VTF’s work lies in the plans it has laid for future resilience and industrial leadership in this vital area. The VTF has provided targeted funding and focus across three broad areas that support the UK’s long-term pandemic preparedness.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/944308/VTF_Interim_report_-_5th_publication.pdf
Notably the UK, with about one seventh the population of the EU has contributed substantially more to COVAX than the EU has, so fewer sermons on "we're all in this together" from UVDL might be in order
Hopefully he keeps it up, there is no need to respond to mere words, and we know they are currently in a bad way (albeit that doesn't excuse wild allegations and leaks, nor denialism).1
