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The vaccine wars shouldn’t surprise us given how COVID has blighted life around the world – politica

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  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:


    If the reports that the shorts are naked and over 100% are correct, the market abuse is the short sellers. Not those holding contracts and shares.

    The suggestion that shares should be loaned without the consent of the owner, just so that the hedges can play with them, is particularly risible.

    Ah. I haven't been following particularly closely, just saw @Charles' post - and thought the issue was the ramping of the stock. If they were naked shorts then yes of course that's illegal.
    Naked shorting is a market abuse the SEC has winked at for a decade or more.
    Bright young grad: "How come you're selling something you don't have?"
    Ornery old trader: "Ha ha ha. Fancy getting me a bacon butty?"
    Which were you?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,858
    Leon said:
    All the more for us, the third world and the more deserving.
  • Leon said:
    That's fine. In that case they won't need as much of it.
  • Off topic more or less, does anyone knows what the new customs rules are for buying from private sellers in the EU on Ebay? I'm looking at a fairly pricey item in Potsdam but still a pretty good deal, having a wheen of VAT and customs charges whacked on it makes it a lot less good

    You will be the importer of the product. Which means you will have to pay import VAT and tariffs (if appropriate), charges for the customs forms etc.

    Don't forget that the Department for International Trade have advised UK companies that the solution to selling in the EU is set up a new business there. Same is true for over here - unless a company has imported the product, paid all the fees etc and then sold it to you, its all on you and they will charge you dollar.
  • With regards to the absurd petty nationalism that seems to have arisen over the vaccine, I have to ask: are we an island? As in one that has absolutely cut itself off from the world? If we have, then we don't need to worry about the rest of humanity and can keep British Vaccine for British Workers.

    If, on the other hand, we let people waltz in across our border without so much as a temperature check, its in our best interests to have europeans also vaccinated.

    The UK has dedicated more to vaccinating the rest of the world than the entire EU combined has done.

    Answer your concerns? Or are you saying we should vaccinate the UK, the third world and pay for Europe to be vaccinated too?
    Erm no, thats one of your typical strawmen. We pay for our jabs, Europe pays for their jabs, the world helps pay for jabs in poor countries. Its not us vs them though, its all of us vs Covid.
    No, the world doesn't pay for jabs in poor countries. We are paying more to Covax for poor country vaccinations than the whole of the EU combined.

    We are also paying more to build our jabs production than the EU did.

    We have spent more on vaccinations - domestic and abroad - than the entire EU combined have done. So we're not equitably "us vs Covid".
    Jesus, I didn't think this one was difficult. It is "Us" - as in people - vs Covid. Lets assume for a minute that we break the back of it in the UK through our vaccination programme. But they don't in France though their woeful EU system or whatever. The virus mutates again there. Into a vaccine resistant form, which then travels here through our open border.

    Most of us vaccinated against a bug which mutates to get around it. We're back to square one. Insisting that we spent more than the french on a now useless vaccination programme won't help us.

    So we need Europe to catch us up, not fight battles with them over "you can't have it, its ours". And get most of the world immunised. So that when it mutates again we aren't all still at risk.
    And in actual practicalities how do we do that?

    We're not fighting battles with them. We've paid billions of pounds to develop a steady stream of vaccinations and have said that they can use that once we're finished with it - and we'll be paying for those who can't afford it to get it too.

    They've not bothered paying for it and now realise its important. So what should we do? Rather than wishful thinking or vague nonsense about, what can actually be changed?

    If they pull their fingers out, start investing billions into this like the UK have then humanity would be better placed to eradicate the virus. We can't make them do that though and we're already paying for the UK and the third world to get this.
  • Everyone on their own, the long term result of Trumpism and nationalism, and the winners are China.
    Isn't sucking up to China the exact opposite of Trumpism?
    I presume NZ are doing it to get a better deal from China than Australia get. NZ first.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Everyone on their own, the long term result of Trumpism and nationalism, and the winners are China.
    New Zealand's decision to become a client state of China is New Zealand's and New Zealand's alone. They are a democracy. Or they were.

    Maybe the folk praising Ardern's government to the skies might like to reflect a little.
  • GideonWiseGideonWise Posts: 1,123

    Leon said:
    So, to support a German business newspaper, Germany condemns anyone over 65 to the risk of getting Covid. You know, the ones who actually die when they get it. Jeez...
    I think this a decent example of the vaccine nationalism that has been flagged by a few on here today.

    Can you see that in your own post Mark?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    A friend in south London, mid 60's, got the jab yesterday. Got a call from the surgery: "we've got some vaccine spare - would you like one?" .

    Just - don't tell Brussels.

    There is episode of Only Fools and Horses in there somewhere.....


    Lol - wonder what they really injected him with...off Peckham market!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,477

    What's interesting here is what the Johnson government do with their temporary vaccine upper hand over the EU.

    If its nothing, there could be a price to pay from the right. Their vaccine policy is undoubtedly a triumph, but I am not sure its a laurel to be resting on. Not sure at all.

    Personally I think the best thing is to be silent and keep jabbing. The papers are already trying to say Boris 'hit back', which he did not. There is no sense in trying to tie the relinquishing of some of our vaccine supplies with some imagined advantage 'be nicer to us at customs' or 'be nicer to our financial services industry' or something - it wouldn't happen and would make the UK Government look foolish.

    Keep jabbing. Help ROI significantly as soon as there is opportunity to do so. Help the third world as much as possible thereafter.
  • More essential than the essence of an essential thing.

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1354764567843364870?s=20
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933

    More essential than the essence of an essential thing.

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1354764567843364870?s=20

    That's what politicians tend to do.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,314

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:

    For those who missed it yesterday - Mr Navabi posted the link to the report:

    UK Vaccine Taskforce 2020 Achievements and Future Strategy
    End of year report


    1. VTF has built an attractive portfolio of the most promising vaccines for the UK population
    The VTF’s strategy to build a diverse portfolio of vaccines across different formats gives the UK the greatest chance of providing a safe and effective vaccine, recognising that many of these vaccines in development may fail. The VTF focused on vaccines that could be in the clinic in 2020, which could be manufactured at scale preferably in the UK, which had the potential to secure rapid regulatory approval and be delivered ready for deployment as rapidly as possible.

    2. VTF has shaped new collaborative arrangements to ensure that successful vaccines will be distributed internationally
    The COVID-19 Vaccines Global Access facility (COVAX), to which the UK has made up to £548 million available, will provide access to vaccines for lower income countries including one billion doses for developing countries worldwide. The UK through the VTF has helped to develop the COVAX facility and has shared its expertise and people with COVAX to support their global efforts.

    3. VTF has supported the UK’s industrial strategy by reinforcing long-term vaccine capability to prepare the UK for future pandemics, helping to place the UK at the forefront of vaccine R&D, manufacturing and distribution, but more is needed
    One of the most interesting and imaginative aspects of the VTF’s work lies in the plans it has laid for future resilience and industrial leadership in this vital area. The VTF has provided targeted funding and focus across three broad areas that support the UK’s long-term pandemic preparedness.



    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/944308/VTF_Interim_report_-_5th_publication.pdf

    Notably the UK, with about one seventh the population of the EU has contributed substantially more to COVAX than the EU has, so fewer sermons on "we're all in this together" from UVDL might be in order

    Point 3 is of particular interest for the future and sounds like a very good idea.

    Re Cummings, I was approached anonymously last year by someone claiming that the Barnard Castle trip was all about meetings with Glaxo Smith Kline and not eye trips or whatever. No idea whether that is true but it is certainly the case that GSK has a facility there and it might fit in with your theory that Cummings may have had a part to play.

    It would be fascinating to get the full story behind all this one day. Some aspects have been handled badly - process does matter, especially when you are developing a reputation for sleaze - but imaginative and far-seeing thinking about what will be needed combined with the very best of the NHS seems to have resulted so far in a good outcome on the pharmaceutical / vaccine side. So I was too quick to criticise the government over the Bingham appointment. Hands up on that. It seems that she has provided valuable input - especially re investment in future biotech stars (her expertise), whatever other criticisms might be made around government processes. I wonder why the government appeared to hang her out to dry last year.

    Quite impressed that the PM has not risen to the bait and been all Brexity about this, despite a stupid question from Peter Bone in the Commons yesterday.

    And nor should anyone else be. If European countries don't get vaccines people will die. These are our friends, neighbours and, in my case, my relatives - some of whom are elderly and vulnerable - in Italy, Ireland, France and Spain. I no more want them to suffer just so that some idiot politician or commentator can make a stupid point than I want to be bumped down the priority list because Labour wants to get votes from fit 30-year old teachers.

    Talking of which the GP here was all ready to start vaccinating priority groups 5 & 6 here (which I'm in) this week but the North West has had it supply of vaccines reduced. Annoying. Hearing how it is affecting son and hubby has made me (a) more scared of catching it and (b) even more determined to hide away until I'm vaccinated. At this rate, I will have lost the power of speech by the time I'm allowed out of the house.

    Cummings on a secret vaccine mission would certainly explain why Boris stood four-square behind him, even with all the political damage that undeniably caused.
    There's revisionism and then there's whatever this is. Secret vaccine mission. FFS.

    Anyway, please stop it. I'm trying to concentrate on something and it's putting me off.
    It was a thought that came from Cyclefree. Not exactly a Tory ramper.

    Its an interesting thought, we'll probably never know, or maybe not for 50 or however many years it is now. If it turns out it was true then . . . wow.
    It was a tip given to me. No idea if it is true. Other details were given which I am not in a position to check out. Quite why they were sent to me is another matter.

    It would not surprise me if there were other reasons for the Barnard Castle trip. The eye test excuse was absurd. And if discussions were at an early sensitive stage then it would explain the secrecy. But it is also possible that the PM did not want to lose a close advisor and that there was nothing else going on. Sometimes the simple explanations are the correct ones.

    Anyway have stuff to do.

    Just want to say that I hope European countries do get the vaccines they need ASAP. There is no advantage to us saving lives while others lose theirs.
  • MaxPB said:

    With regards to the absurd petty nationalism that seems to have arisen over the vaccine, I have to ask: are we an island? As in one that has absolutely cut itself off from the world? If we have, then we don't need to worry about the rest of humanity and can keep British Vaccine for British Workers.

    If, on the other hand, we let people waltz in across our border without so much as a temperature check, its in our best interests to have europeans also vaccinated.

    The UK has dedicated more to vaccinating the rest of the world than the entire EU combined has done.

    Answer your concerns? Or are you saying we should vaccinate the UK, the third world and pay for Europe to be vaccinated too?
    Erm no, thats one of your typical strawmen. We pay for our jabs, Europe pays for their jabs, the world helps pay for jabs in poor countries. Its not us vs them though, its all of us vs Covid.
    No, the world doesn't pay for jabs in poor countries. We are paying more to Covax for poor country vaccinations than the whole of the EU combined.

    We are also paying more to build our jabs production than the EU did.

    We have spent more on vaccinations - domestic and abroad - than the entire EU combined have done. So we're not equitably "us vs Covid".
    Jesus, I didn't think this one was difficult. It is "Us" - as in people - vs Covid. Lets assume for a minute that we break the back of it in the UK through our vaccination programme. But they don't in France though their woeful EU system or whatever. The virus mutates again there. Into a vaccine resistant form, which then travels here through our open border.

    Most of us vaccinated against a bug which mutates to get around it. We're back to square one. Insisting that we spent more than the french on a now useless vaccination programme won't help us.

    So we need Europe to catch us up, not fight battles with them over "you can't have it, its ours". And get most of the world immunised. So that when it mutates again we aren't all still at risk.
    I'm sorry, you're wrong. Our interests is to ensure Africa, South America and South Asia gets access to the vaccine. Europe is rich enough to fend for itself. Our spare doses should be helping the world's poor getting immunised. There isn't any moral stance that can justify helping rich Europeans that fucked up a purchase scheme over the world's poor who don't have the money or means to access proper medicine.
    When did I say anything about sending our spare doses to Europe? They are responsible for themselves. My point is that the fight isn't us vs them, its everyone vs Covid. Getting to the finishing line first is pointless if the pox mutates into a resistant form and gets into the UK.

    It is in our interests for them to catch us up. The mutual "war" of who gets the vaccine helps no-one.
  • Off topic more or less, does anyone knows what the new customs rules are for buying from private sellers in the EU on Ebay? I'm looking at a fairly pricey item in Potsdam but still a pretty good deal, having a wheen of VAT and customs charges whacked on it makes it a lot less good

    You will be the importer of the product. Which means you will have to pay import VAT and tariffs (if appropriate), charges for the customs forms etc.

    Don't forget that the Department for International Trade have advised UK companies that the solution to selling in the EU is set up a new business there. Same is true for over here - unless a company has imported the product, paid all the fees etc and then sold it to you, its all on you and they will charge you dollar.
    Thanks, expected as much.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    Off topic more or less, does anyone knows what the new customs rules are for buying from private sellers in the EU on Ebay? I'm looking at a fairly pricey item in Potsdam but still a pretty good deal, having a wheen of VAT and customs charges whacked on it makes it a lot less good

    You will be the importer of the product. Which means you will have to pay import VAT and tariffs (if appropriate), charges for the customs forms etc.

    Don't forget that the Department for International Trade have advised UK companies that the solution to selling in the EU is set up a new business there. Same is true for over here - unless a company has imported the product, paid all the fees etc and then sold it to you, its all on you and they will charge you dollar.
    Thanks, expected as much.
    We do of course need to know what it is you're buying from Potsdam.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933

    MaxPB said:

    With regards to the absurd petty nationalism that seems to have arisen over the vaccine, I have to ask: are we an island? As in one that has absolutely cut itself off from the world? If we have, then we don't need to worry about the rest of humanity and can keep British Vaccine for British Workers.

    If, on the other hand, we let people waltz in across our border without so much as a temperature check, its in our best interests to have europeans also vaccinated.

    The UK has dedicated more to vaccinating the rest of the world than the entire EU combined has done.

    Answer your concerns? Or are you saying we should vaccinate the UK, the third world and pay for Europe to be vaccinated too?
    Erm no, thats one of your typical strawmen. We pay for our jabs, Europe pays for their jabs, the world helps pay for jabs in poor countries. Its not us vs them though, its all of us vs Covid.
    No, the world doesn't pay for jabs in poor countries. We are paying more to Covax for poor country vaccinations than the whole of the EU combined.

    We are also paying more to build our jabs production than the EU did.

    We have spent more on vaccinations - domestic and abroad - than the entire EU combined have done. So we're not equitably "us vs Covid".
    Jesus, I didn't think this one was difficult. It is "Us" - as in people - vs Covid. Lets assume for a minute that we break the back of it in the UK through our vaccination programme. But they don't in France though their woeful EU system or whatever. The virus mutates again there. Into a vaccine resistant form, which then travels here through our open border.

    Most of us vaccinated against a bug which mutates to get around it. We're back to square one. Insisting that we spent more than the french on a now useless vaccination programme won't help us.

    So we need Europe to catch us up, not fight battles with them over "you can't have it, its ours". And get most of the world immunised. So that when it mutates again we aren't all still at risk.
    I'm sorry, you're wrong. Our interests is to ensure Africa, South America and South Asia gets access to the vaccine. Europe is rich enough to fend for itself. Our spare doses should be helping the world's poor getting immunised. There isn't any moral stance that can justify helping rich Europeans that fucked up a purchase scheme over the world's poor who don't have the money or means to access proper medicine.
    When did I say anything about sending our spare doses to Europe? They are responsible for themselves. My point is that the fight isn't us vs them, its everyone vs Covid. Getting to the finishing line first is pointless if the pox mutates into a resistant form and gets into the UK.

    It is in our interests for them to catch us up. The mutual "war" of who gets the vaccine helps no-one.
    Mutual? Only one side is engaging.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,357

    Everyone on their own, the long term result of Trumpism and nationalism, and the winners are China.
    Isn't sucking up to China the exact opposite of Trumpism?
    I presume NZ are doing it to get a better deal from China than Australia get. NZ first.
    They are also looking to the future - in Tibet and elsewhere, the Chinese government is busy erasing minority cultures. So, in a few decades, they won't have minorities to oppress. So everything will be lovely - no human rights problems in China.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,209
    edited January 2021

    Everyone on their own, the long term result of Trumpism and nationalism, and the winners are China.
    Isn't sucking up to China the exact opposite of Trumpism?
    The exact opposite of Trumpism is competent, rational, humane government of whatever stripe and regardless of policy naunces.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Floater said:

    IshmaelZ said:
    Dont just dont!!

    Those who have had Pfizer are very lucky
    My son had Pfizer, he was originally being given a different one but on the actual day was told he was not able to have that one (I think they said wasn't eligible) so redirected to another site for the Pfizer
    Have you had yours yet?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    edited January 2021
    Leon said:
    And no this does not vindicate that german newspaper report unless it repeats the things they did - they were making specific claims about efficacy, not merely that due to various factors it might not be approved for over 65s.

    I can already predict who will claim it is vindication even if the decision reasoning does not match that of the newspapers initial claims.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600
    TOPPING said:

    I think we are seeing with the vaccine response that old sore in the relationship of PB Leavers to the EU in their fruit-loop way: it's not enough for you to succeed; your friends must fail.

    The EU has tried to beat Covid on the cheap. Sadly, many of their elders will die as a result. That is not a measure of failure that brings any joy to me.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,879
    edited January 2021

    Off topic more or less, does anyone knows what the new customs rules are for buying from private sellers in the EU on Ebay? I'm looking at a fairly pricey item in Potsdam but still a pretty good deal, having a wheen of VAT and customs charges whacked on it makes it a lot less good

    You will be the importer of the product. Which means you will have to pay import VAT and tariffs (if appropriate), charges for the customs forms etc.

    Don't forget that the Department for International Trade have advised UK companies that the solution to selling in the EU is set up a new business there. Same is true for over here - unless a company has imported the product, paid all the fees etc and then sold it to you, its all on you and they will charge you dollar.
    Thanks, expected as much.
    Also Parcelforce oer the courier will charge for dealing with the bumf.

    Andf it all delays things. It was bad enough waiting up to 2-3 weeks for a parcel of hobby stuff from Japan sitting around a warehouse somewhere near the M1/M6 junction for someone to get rouind to dealing with it. And that was a year before our glorious Brexit.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,209
    TOPPING said:

    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:


    If the reports that the shorts are naked and over 100% are correct, the market abuse is the short sellers. Not those holding contracts and shares.

    The suggestion that shares should be loaned without the consent of the owner, just so that the hedges can play with them, is particularly risible.

    Ah. I haven't been following particularly closely, just saw @Charles' post - and thought the issue was the ramping of the stock. If they were naked shorts then yes of course that's illegal.
    Naked shorting is a market abuse the SEC has winked at for a decade or more.
    Bright young grad: "How come you're selling something you don't have?"
    Ornery old trader: "Ha ha ha. Fancy getting me a bacon butty?"
    Which were you?
    Take the 5th. :smile:
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    kinabalu said:

    Everyone on their own, the long term result of Trumpism and nationalism, and the winners are China.
    Isn't sucking up to China the exact opposite of Trumpism?
    The exact opposite of Trumpism is competent, rational, humane government of whatever stripe and regardless of policy naunces.
    Quite - it's a style, not a particular policy.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,314

    Everyone on their own, the long term result of Trumpism and nationalism, and the winners are China.
    New Zealand's decision to become a client state of China is New Zealand's and New Zealand's alone. They are a democracy. Or they were.

    Maybe the folk praising Ardern's government to the skies might like to reflect a little.
    Some journalist ought to ask Ms Ardern whether what China is doing to the Uighurs is worthy of respect, possibly after asking her what lessons might be learned from Holocaust Memorial Day.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:
    And no this does not vindicate that german newspaper report unless it repeats the things they did - they were making specific claims about efficacy, not merely that due to various factors it might not be approved for over 65s.

    I can already predict who will claim it is vindication.
    Which other countries are giving it to their over 65s

    Ourselves and maybe Australia.

    Anybody else?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited January 2021

    MaxPB said:

    With regards to the absurd petty nationalism that seems to have arisen over the vaccine, I have to ask: are we an island? As in one that has absolutely cut itself off from the world? If we have, then we don't need to worry about the rest of humanity and can keep British Vaccine for British Workers.

    If, on the other hand, we let people waltz in across our border without so much as a temperature check, its in our best interests to have europeans also vaccinated.

    The UK has dedicated more to vaccinating the rest of the world than the entire EU combined has done.

    Answer your concerns? Or are you saying we should vaccinate the UK, the third world and pay for Europe to be vaccinated too?
    Erm no, thats one of your typical strawmen. We pay for our jabs, Europe pays for their jabs, the world helps pay for jabs in poor countries. Its not us vs them though, its all of us vs Covid.
    No, the world doesn't pay for jabs in poor countries. We are paying more to Covax for poor country vaccinations than the whole of the EU combined.

    We are also paying more to build our jabs production than the EU did.

    We have spent more on vaccinations - domestic and abroad - than the entire EU combined have done. So we're not equitably "us vs Covid".
    Jesus, I didn't think this one was difficult. It is "Us" - as in people - vs Covid. Lets assume for a minute that we break the back of it in the UK through our vaccination programme. But they don't in France though their woeful EU system or whatever. The virus mutates again there. Into a vaccine resistant form, which then travels here through our open border.

    Most of us vaccinated against a bug which mutates to get around it. We're back to square one. Insisting that we spent more than the french on a now useless vaccination programme won't help us.

    So we need Europe to catch us up, not fight battles with them over "you can't have it, its ours". And get most of the world immunised. So that when it mutates again we aren't all still at risk.
    I'm sorry, you're wrong. Our interests is to ensure Africa, South America and South Asia gets access to the vaccine. Europe is rich enough to fend for itself. Our spare doses should be helping the world's poor getting immunised. There isn't any moral stance that can justify helping rich Europeans that fucked up a purchase scheme over the world's poor who don't have the money or means to access proper medicine.
    When did I say anything about sending our spare doses to Europe? They are responsible for themselves. My point is that the fight isn't us vs them, its everyone vs Covid. Getting to the finishing line first is pointless if the pox mutates into a resistant form and gets into the UK.

    It is in our interests for them to catch us up. The mutual "war" of who gets the vaccine helps no-one.
    Yes it is everyone versus Covid but not everyone is pulling their own weight, let alone punching above it and carrying others.

    The EU fully deserves the opprobrium headed their way for how they've let not just their own citizens down but humanity down by not tackling Covid. Its insane that we have got the science to get working vaccines but because they chose to SAVE MONEY and not invest properly in vaccinations we are going to see this pandemic dragged out.

    I'm normally fully behind governments not spending much money but humanity is in a war-like situation against Covid and its frankly unforgivable that the EU chose to be miserly and pennypinch and not bother to invest in vaccines.

    It is in our interests for them to catch up and they can do so by investing billions of Euros in getting vaccine manufacturing up and running ASAP. Once they've caught up in vaccines for themselves it would be a good idea for them to catch up on donations to Covax for the third world too.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865

    MaxPB said:

    With regards to the absurd petty nationalism that seems to have arisen over the vaccine, I have to ask: are we an island? As in one that has absolutely cut itself off from the world? If we have, then we don't need to worry about the rest of humanity and can keep British Vaccine for British Workers.

    If, on the other hand, we let people waltz in across our border without so much as a temperature check, its in our best interests to have europeans also vaccinated.

    The UK has dedicated more to vaccinating the rest of the world than the entire EU combined has done.

    Answer your concerns? Or are you saying we should vaccinate the UK, the third world and pay for Europe to be vaccinated too?
    Erm no, thats one of your typical strawmen. We pay for our jabs, Europe pays for their jabs, the world helps pay for jabs in poor countries. Its not us vs them though, its all of us vs Covid.
    No, the world doesn't pay for jabs in poor countries. We are paying more to Covax for poor country vaccinations than the whole of the EU combined.

    We are also paying more to build our jabs production than the EU did.

    We have spent more on vaccinations - domestic and abroad - than the entire EU combined have done. So we're not equitably "us vs Covid".
    Jesus, I didn't think this one was difficult. It is "Us" - as in people - vs Covid. Lets assume for a minute that we break the back of it in the UK through our vaccination programme. But they don't in France though their woeful EU system or whatever. The virus mutates again there. Into a vaccine resistant form, which then travels here through our open border.

    Most of us vaccinated against a bug which mutates to get around it. We're back to square one. Insisting that we spent more than the french on a now useless vaccination programme won't help us.

    So we need Europe to catch us up, not fight battles with them over "you can't have it, its ours". And get most of the world immunised. So that when it mutates again we aren't all still at risk.
    I'm sorry, you're wrong. Our interests is to ensure Africa, South America and South Asia gets access to the vaccine. Europe is rich enough to fend for itself. Our spare doses should be helping the world's poor getting immunised. There isn't any moral stance that can justify helping rich Europeans that fucked up a purchase scheme over the world's poor who don't have the money or means to access proper medicine.
    When did I say anything about sending our spare doses to Europe? They are responsible for themselves. My point is that the fight isn't us vs them, its everyone vs Covid. Getting to the finishing line first is pointless if the pox mutates into a resistant form and gets into the UK.

    It is in our interests for them to catch us up. The mutual "war" of who gets the vaccine helps no-one.
    Sure, then direct your ire at the EU who are threatening export bans. From the start I've said that subsidising manufacturing capacity was the winning strategy, we've subsidised peak capacity of ~50m doses per month of three different vaccines. We're not going to use anywhere near all of it which means our taxes will be benefiting the rest of the world as we will have oversupply of around 500m doses per year and rising as more capacity is being planned.

    The idea that the UK is taking a nationalistic stance is pure projection, we're doing more to ensure equitable access than any other country in both absolute and per capita terms. I hope the EU and US both commit to much better support for the world's poorest, both are failing to do so.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992

    TOPPING said:

    I think we are seeing with the vaccine response that old sore in the relationship of PB Leavers to the EU in their fruit-loop way: it's not enough for you to succeed; your friends must fail.

    The EU has tried to beat Covid on the cheap. Sadly, many of their elders will die as a result. That is not a measure of failure that brings any joy to me.
    Is that what they tried to do? I thought they just ballsed up the timing of the ordering.

    We still of course haven't seen the contract and the associated paperwork so I would like to see that.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:
    And no this does not vindicate that german newspaper report unless it repeats the things they did - they were making specific claims about efficacy, not merely that due to various factors it might not be approved for over 65s.

    I can already predict who will claim it is vindication.
    Which other countries are giving it to their over 65s

    Ourselves and maybe Australia.

    Anybody else?
    India and South Africa.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    edited January 2021

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:
    And no this does not vindicate that german newspaper report unless it repeats the things they did - they were making specific claims about efficacy, not merely that due to various factors it might not be approved for over 65s.

    I can already predict who will claim it is vindication.
    Which other countries are giving it to their over 65s

    Ourselves and maybe Australia.

    Anybody else?
    I'm not going to criticise the rationale behind a regulator's decision. It may well be one of those things that regulators can reasonably take different approaches on and I am no expect.

    The point was that the newspaper was making very specific claims about efficacy and the regulator's decision may not be based on that (but, for instance, on insufficient data for over 65s for example rather than that it barely works for them). If it is based on that, then as I said at the time the paper has done some dogged reporting.

    So you can try your whataboutery somewhere else. You were not the one I was thinking of.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:
    And no this does not vindicate that german newspaper report unless it repeats the things they did - they were making specific claims about efficacy, not merely that due to various factors it might not be approved for over 65s.

    I can already predict who will claim it is vindication even if the decision reasoning does not match that of the newspapers initial claims.
    By the end of next month we will know one way or another whether AZ's vaccine is effective for the older cohorts. We don't have a lot of data as yet, but there's no particular reason to think it won't work, it's just not proven to do so at the moment.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I think we are seeing with the vaccine response that old sore in the relationship of PB Leavers to the EU in their fruit-loop way: it's not enough for you to succeed; your friends must fail.

    The EU has tried to beat Covid on the cheap. Sadly, many of their elders will die as a result. That is not a measure of failure that brings any joy to me.
    Is that what they tried to do? I thought they just ballsed up the timing of the ordering.

    We still of course haven't seen the contract and the associated paperwork so I would like to see that.
    They have put in one seventh of the investment of the UK and the US into generating new vaccines and the facilities to produce them.

    So yes, I think "The EU has tried to beat Covid on the cheap" can be backed up.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    glw said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:
    And no this does not vindicate that german newspaper report unless it repeats the things they did - they were making specific claims about efficacy, not merely that due to various factors it might not be approved for over 65s.

    I can already predict who will claim it is vindication even if the decision reasoning does not match that of the newspapers initial claims.
    By the end of next month we will know one way or another whether AZ's vaccine is effective for the older cohorts. We don't have a lot of data as yet, but there's no particular reason to think it won't work, it's just not proven to do so at the moment.
    Which is different to what the newspaper claimed. Which is why their reporting is not vindicated unless that regulator backs what they claimed, not merely that they did indeed not approve for over 65s based on insufficient data, which is an understandable but very different reason.
  • kle4 said:

    Leon said:
    And no this does not vindicate that german newspaper report unless it repeats the things they did - they were making specific claims about efficacy, not merely that due to various factors it might not be approved for over 65s.

    I can already predict who will claim it is vindication.
    Which other countries are giving it to their over 65s

    Ourselves and maybe Australia.

    Anybody else?
    India, Pakistan, South Africa, Argentina and Mexico.

    About a third of the world's population already in countries using it.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,240
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I think we are seeing with the vaccine response that old sore in the relationship of PB Leavers to the EU in their fruit-loop way: it's not enough for you to succeed; your friends must fail.

    The EU has tried to beat Covid on the cheap. Sadly, many of their elders will die as a result. That is not a measure of failure that brings any joy to me.
    Is that what they tried to do? I thought they just ballsed up the timing of the ordering.

    We still of course haven't seen the contract and the associated paperwork so I would like to see that.
    There is actually a good piece in der Spiegel about the details of that.
    https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-planning-disaster-germany-and-europe-could-fall-short-on-vaccine-supplies-a-3db4702d-ae23-4e85-85b7-20145a898abd

    with a corker of a quote:

    The EU vaccine portfolio is proof of what we can achieve when we work together as a strong European Health Union,” says Health Commissioner Stella Kyriakides.

    She says the Commission has selected the most promising and advanced vaccine candidates, which are also based on different technologies. "To ensure that we have as a diverse a portfolio as possible,” Kyriakides says. "In total, we have bought more than enough doses for everyone in Europe,” European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen told the European Parliament on Wednesday, without any hint of self-criticism.


    This is from 18/12/20
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,996
    edited January 2021
    TOPPING said:

    Off topic more or less, does anyone knows what the new customs rules are for buying from private sellers in the EU on Ebay? I'm looking at a fairly pricey item in Potsdam but still a pretty good deal, having a wheen of VAT and customs charges whacked on it makes it a lot less good

    You will be the importer of the product. Which means you will have to pay import VAT and tariffs (if appropriate), charges for the customs forms etc.

    Don't forget that the Department for International Trade have advised UK companies that the solution to selling in the EU is set up a new business there. Same is true for over here - unless a company has imported the product, paid all the fees etc and then sold it to you, its all on you and they will charge you dollar.
    Thanks, expected as much.
    We do of course need to know what it is you're buying from Potsdam.
    Tutima wrist watch, may not be now though :(
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    MattW said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I think we are seeing with the vaccine response that old sore in the relationship of PB Leavers to the EU in their fruit-loop way: it's not enough for you to succeed; your friends must fail.

    The EU has tried to beat Covid on the cheap. Sadly, many of their elders will die as a result. That is not a measure of failure that brings any joy to me.
    Is that what they tried to do? I thought they just ballsed up the timing of the ordering.

    We still of course haven't seen the contract and the associated paperwork so I would like to see that.
    There is actually a good piece in der Spiegel about the details of that.
    https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/the-planning-disaster-germany-and-europe-could-fall-short-on-vaccine-supplies-a-3db4702d-ae23-4e85-85b7-20145a898abd

    with a corker of a quote:

    The EU vaccine portfolio is proof of what we can achieve when we work together as a strong European Health Union,” says Health Commissioner Stella Kyriakides.

    She says the Commission has selected the most promising and advanced vaccine candidates, which are also based on different technologies. "To ensure that we have as a diverse a portfolio as possible,” Kyriakides says. "In total, we have bought more than enough doses for everyone in Europe,” European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen told the European Parliament on Wednesday, without any hint of self-criticism.


    This is from 18/12/20
    So they seem to have gotten confused between ordering sufficient does to assuming that means they would definitely get all on time, and at the same time as every one else?
  • Carnyx said:

    Off topic more or less, does anyone knows what the new customs rules are for buying from private sellers in the EU on Ebay? I'm looking at a fairly pricey item in Potsdam but still a pretty good deal, having a wheen of VAT and customs charges whacked on it makes it a lot less good

    You will be the importer of the product. Which means you will have to pay import VAT and tariffs (if appropriate), charges for the customs forms etc.

    Don't forget that the Department for International Trade have advised UK companies that the solution to selling in the EU is set up a new business there. Same is true for over here - unless a company has imported the product, paid all the fees etc and then sold it to you, its all on you and they will charge you dollar.
    Thanks, expected as much.
    Also Parcelforce oer the courier will charge for dealing with the bumf.

    Andf it all delays things. It was bad enough waiting up to 2-3 weeks for a parcel of hobby stuff from Japan sitting around a warehouse somewhere near the M1/M6 junction for someone to get rouind to dealing with it. And that was a year before our glorious Brexit.
    Simple solution is don't buy from forrin. And if that means you can't get the stuff that is manufactured / sold in that non-UK market then surely thats just another one of the things people definitely voted for.

    Sensible heads would suggest this isn't long-term viable. As its the UK government who asked for all this paperwork to be added on, we'd have to ask to change it. Which I can't see happening. As the FT reported they simply didn't consider the details of what they were negotiating.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    I'm confused. Why does Germany have a vaccine committee? Is this shorthand for the EMA, or does each EU country have to sign off separately?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Scott_xP said:
    Look, they managed to remember to make it a multi-ethnic graphic, so they avoided one online outrage at least.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Scott_xP said:
    What, have you run out of nice pictures of buses to retweet? Disappointing.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I think we are seeing with the vaccine response that old sore in the relationship of PB Leavers to the EU in their fruit-loop way: it's not enough for you to succeed; your friends must fail.

    The EU has tried to beat Covid on the cheap. Sadly, many of their elders will die as a result. That is not a measure of failure that brings any joy to me.
    Is that what they tried to do? I thought they just ballsed up the timing of the ordering.

    We still of course haven't seen the contract and the associated paperwork so I would like to see that.
    image

    On the cheap. We've spent 7 times what they have.

    They've saved £25 per capita by not investing what we have - and look at the consequences. Utter false economy.
  • Everyone on their own, the long term result of Trumpism and nationalism, and the winners are China.
    Isn't sucking up to China the exact opposite of Trumpism?
    I presume NZ are doing it to get a better deal from China than Australia get. NZ first.
    They are also looking to the future - in Tibet and elsewhere, the Chinese government is busy erasing minority cultures. So, in a few decades, they won't have minorities to oppress. So everything will be lovely - no human rights problems in China.
    I am not saying it is a good or moral thing. Its not a popular opinion but its an inevitable consequence of Trumpist nationalism in the USA and the changing global power dynamics that result from that. This idea of the united Anglo bloc saving the western world from China is a sad fantasy.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I think we are seeing with the vaccine response that old sore in the relationship of PB Leavers to the EU in their fruit-loop way: it's not enough for you to succeed; your friends must fail.

    The EU has tried to beat Covid on the cheap. Sadly, many of their elders will die as a result. That is not a measure of failure that brings any joy to me.
    Is that what they tried to do? I thought they just ballsed up the timing of the ordering.

    We still of course haven't seen the contract and the associated paperwork so I would like to see that.
    Yep I don't think we can make any claims about the reasons they did certain things. All we know is that overall they did some things that have bene very successful and some things that have failed badly. I would always look first to cockup based on lack of understanding of the risks (something almost all governments have been guilty of in some ways) rather than a specific policy to save money or some other calculated reason.

    There are a handful of countries in the world that have handled every aspect of this fairly well. What we need to be doing is learning from each other.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    glw said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:
    And no this does not vindicate that german newspaper report unless it repeats the things they did - they were making specific claims about efficacy, not merely that due to various factors it might not be approved for over 65s.

    I can already predict who will claim it is vindication even if the decision reasoning does not match that of the newspapers initial claims.
    By the end of next month we will know one way or another whether AZ's vaccine is effective for the older cohorts. We don't have a lot of data as yet, but there's no particular reason to think it won't work, it's just not proven to do so at the moment.
    It will probably be a bit longer than that because we're using the 9-12 week gap which the AZ vaccine responds best to. The single jab is said to provide 70% immunity from symptoms after three weeks and two weeks after the second jab it's ~95% immunity from infection with a 12 week gap.

    The rest of the world will be watching our hospitalisation rates for the next few weeks and then our infection rate in April and May to judge whether the AZ vaccine is as good as we all hope it is.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830


    TOPPING said:

    Off topic more or less, does anyone knows what the new customs rules are for buying from private sellers in the EU on Ebay? I'm looking at a fairly pricey item in Potsdam but still a pretty good deal, having a wheen of VAT and customs charges whacked on it makes it a lot less good

    You will be the importer of the product. Which means you will have to pay import VAT and tariffs (if appropriate), charges for the customs forms etc.

    Don't forget that the Department for International Trade have advised UK companies that the solution to selling in the EU is set up a new business there. Same is true for over here - unless a company has imported the product, paid all the fees etc and then sold it to you, its all on you and they will charge you dollar.
    Thanks, expected as much.
    We do of course need to know what it is you're buying from Potsdam.
    Tutima wrist watch, may not be now though :(
    Not one of the Saxon range, one assumes.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,695
    The Philippines have approved the AstraZeneca vaccine.

    https://twitter.com/ABSCBNNews/status/1354754846906310657
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:
    And no this does not vindicate that german newspaper report unless it repeats the things they did - they were making specific claims about efficacy, not merely that due to various factors it might not be approved for over 65s.

    I can already predict who will claim it is vindication.
    Which other countries are giving it to their over 65s

    Ourselves and maybe Australia.

    Anybody else?
    I'm not going to criticise the rationale behind a regulator's decision. It may well be one of those things that regulators can reasonably take different approaches on and I am no expect.

    The point was that the newspaper was making very specific claims about efficacy and the regulator's decision may not be based on that (but, for instance, on insufficient data for over 65s for example rather than that it barely works for them). If it is based on that, then as I said at the time the paper has done some dogged reporting.

    So you can try your whataboutery somewhere else. You were not the one I was thinking of.
    What whataboutery? We have administered millions of doses of AZ to over 65s including to my wife.

    I reckon its probably better having AZ than having nothing, but am naturally worried, particularly if other regulators follow the German lead.

    I wish we had enough Pfizer for all over 65s though. (And I know nobody else has either).

    Somebody earlier says we should know in a month how effective it is in oldies. Lets hope it comes out with a high number and Germany were being too cautious.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,204

    The Philippines have approved the AstraZeneca vaccine.

    https://twitter.com/ABSCBNNews/status/1354754846906310657

    Duterte not going to get it in his arm apparently...
  • glw said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:
    And no this does not vindicate that german newspaper report unless it repeats the things they did - they were making specific claims about efficacy, not merely that due to various factors it might not be approved for over 65s.

    I can already predict who will claim it is vindication even if the decision reasoning does not match that of the newspapers initial claims.
    By the end of next month we will know one way or another whether AZ's vaccine is effective for the older cohorts. We don't have a lot of data as yet, but there's no particular reason to think it won't work, it's just not proven to do so at the moment.
    And if (as I think is the case) anti-vax fears are more of an issue in EU countries than in the UK, they have less wriggle room to say "ah, it'll be fine" than the UK.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:
    And no this does not vindicate that german newspaper report unless it repeats the things they did - they were making specific claims about efficacy, not merely that due to various factors it might not be approved for over 65s.

    I can already predict who will claim it is vindication.
    Which other countries are giving it to their over 65s

    Ourselves and maybe Australia.

    Anybody else?
    I'm not going to criticise the rationale behind a regulator's decision. It may well be one of those things that regulators can reasonably take different approaches on and I am no expect.

    The point was that the newspaper was making very specific claims about efficacy and the regulator's decision may not be based on that (but, for instance, on insufficient data for over 65s for example rather than that it barely works for them). If it is based on that, then as I said at the time the paper has done some dogged reporting.

    So you can try your whataboutery somewhere else. You were not the one I was thinking of.
    What whataboutery? We have administered millions of doses of AZ to over 65s including to my wife.

    I reckon its probably better having AZ than having nothing, but am naturally worried, particularly if other regulators follow the German lead.

    I wish we had enough Pfizer for all over 65s though. (And I know nobody else has either).

    Somebody earlier says we should know in a month how effective it is in oldies. Lets hope it comes out with a high number and Germany were being too cautious.
    Even the phase two data shows a near-identical immune response in the over-65s.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I think we are seeing with the vaccine response that old sore in the relationship of PB Leavers to the EU in their fruit-loop way: it's not enough for you to succeed; your friends must fail.

    The EU has tried to beat Covid on the cheap. Sadly, many of their elders will die as a result. That is not a measure of failure that brings any joy to me.
    Is that what they tried to do? I thought they just ballsed up the timing of the ordering.

    We still of course haven't seen the contract and the associated paperwork so I would like to see that.
    Another reason for the delay was on indemnities. The vaccine companies were understandably not keen on giving big guarantees on something they were doing not for profit! This held up negotiations and the EU are still boasting they have better indemnities than the UK.

    This seems like a crazy reason to delay signing a contract in the pandemic, the indemnity is surely a public good that can be managed by the central banks if ever needed rather than the drug companies and their insurers.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865

    The Philippines have approved the AstraZeneca vaccine.

    https://twitter.com/ABSCBNNews/status/1354754846906310657

    Good to see independent confirmation of the 70% immunity figure after one dose.

    It's going to be a long wait for full immunity and I hope everyone continues to stay safe for the 14 weeks it will take to get it.

  • TOPPING said:

    Off topic more or less, does anyone knows what the new customs rules are for buying from private sellers in the EU on Ebay? I'm looking at a fairly pricey item in Potsdam but still a pretty good deal, having a wheen of VAT and customs charges whacked on it makes it a lot less good

    You will be the importer of the product. Which means you will have to pay import VAT and tariffs (if appropriate), charges for the customs forms etc.

    Don't forget that the Department for International Trade have advised UK companies that the solution to selling in the EU is set up a new business there. Same is true for over here - unless a company has imported the product, paid all the fees etc and then sold it to you, its all on you and they will charge you dollar.
    Thanks, expected as much.
    We do of course need to know what it is you're buying from Potsdam.
    Tutima wrist watch, may not be now though :(
    UK Retailer: https://remontoire68.com/product-category/tutima-glashutte-sa/
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908
    kle4 said:

    glw said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:
    And no this does not vindicate that german newspaper report unless it repeats the things they did - they were making specific claims about efficacy, not merely that due to various factors it might not be approved for over 65s.

    I can already predict who will claim it is vindication even if the decision reasoning does not match that of the newspapers initial claims.
    By the end of next month we will know one way or another whether AZ's vaccine is effective for the older cohorts. We don't have a lot of data as yet, but there's no particular reason to think it won't work, it's just not proven to do so at the moment.
    Which is different to what the newspaper claimed. Which is why their reporting is not vindicated unless that regulator backs what they claimed, not merely that they did indeed not approve for over 65s based on insufficient data, which is an understandable but very different reason.
    I'm not defending that newspaper report. I'm confident that the vaccine will be much more effective than they claimed, and all but certain that it will be effective in stopping severe disease.
  • I genuinely don’t understand the messaging from the EU here. They really want more of the AZ vaccine but they are only just about to approve it, and then not for the high risk groups? Early impressions matter. If they get the message out that this vaccine isn’t safe, the whole work suffers.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:
    And no this does not vindicate that german newspaper report unless it repeats the things they did - they were making specific claims about efficacy, not merely that due to various factors it might not be approved for over 65s.

    I can already predict who will claim it is vindication.
    Which other countries are giving it to their over 65s

    Ourselves and maybe Australia.

    Anybody else?
    India, Pakistan, South Africa, Argentina and Mexico.

    About a third of the world's population already in countries using it.
    That sounds like a good sign.

    Germany being ultra cautious hopefully.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,209
    TOPPING said:

    I think we are seeing with the vaccine response that old sore in the relationship of PB Leavers to the EU in their fruit-loop way: it's not enough for you to succeed; your friends must fail.

    Yes, the gleeful reaction of europhobes to the EU's vaccine troubles has been quite intense. I've given it some thought and I think what we might be seeing is an example of something known in the football world, and indeed in wider society, as Stockport County Syndrome. The name derives from the tendency of the more fervent supporters of a small town, perennially struggling club to take great pleasure from the occasional defeat of their wealthy, big city rivals. All very understandable on a human level, and certainly nothing to overly chastize people for, but of course it changes nothing. When the excitement dies down a week or so later, it's BAU. There is still Man Utd. And there is still Stockport County.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,548
    edited January 2021
    kinabalu said:

    Everyone on their own, the long term result of Trumpism and nationalism, and the winners are China.
    Isn't sucking up to China the exact opposite of Trumpism?
    The exact opposite of Trumpism is competent, rational, humane government of whatever stripe and regardless of policy naunces.
    So are you claiming that either Australia or New Zealand are not showing 'competent, rational, humane government'? If not then the Trump comparison is a lazy slur.
  • IshmaelZ said:


    TOPPING said:

    Off topic more or less, does anyone knows what the new customs rules are for buying from private sellers in the EU on Ebay? I'm looking at a fairly pricey item in Potsdam but still a pretty good deal, having a wheen of VAT and customs charges whacked on it makes it a lot less good

    You will be the importer of the product. Which means you will have to pay import VAT and tariffs (if appropriate), charges for the customs forms etc.

    Don't forget that the Department for International Trade have advised UK companies that the solution to selling in the EU is set up a new business there. Same is true for over here - unless a company has imported the product, paid all the fees etc and then sold it to you, its all on you and they will charge you dollar.
    Thanks, expected as much.
    We do of course need to know what it is you're buying from Potsdam.
    Tutima wrist watch, may not be now though :(
    Not one of the Saxon range, one assumes.
    No, but because they're the chunky boy style beloved of lower league footballers and tv chefs rather than the name.

    At least they're not at the level of ghastliness recently purchased by that taste free zone McGregor.




  • Sky reporting AZ factory in Belgium was raided by Belgium authorities

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    edited January 2021
    TOPPING said:

    I think we are seeing with the vaccine response that old sore in the relationship of PB Leavers to the EU in their fruit-loop way: it's not enough for you to succeed; your friends must fail.

    Well that was the express intent of the EU during the entire Brexit negotiations.

    They didn't just want us to fail, they DID THEIR BEST to make us fail.



    !I’ll have done my job if, in the end, the deal is so tough on the British that they’d prefer to stay in the EU”. Michel Barnier

    https://www.lepoint.fr/monde/brexit-les-secrets-d-un-bras-de-fer-historique-episode-1--28-11-2018-2275148_24.php
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Endillion said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Well, that poster's now presumably going to be seen by more people than if it hadn't been a "massive own goal".

    What is the logic here? Feminists, incensed by the stereotyping, were going to break lockdown just to make some sort of point?
    I think the gov have made some awful communication errors, but this isn't actually one of them - the message is clear, people are just taking issue with the graphic design and extrapolating motivation behind its images.

    I think one of the parties once talked about having conversations around the kitchen table not just the boardroom table in respect of reaching out to women, which was an amusing faux pas.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Endillion said:

    I'm confused. Why does Germany have a vaccine committee? Is this shorthand for the EMA, or does each EU country have to sign off separately?
    European Medicines Agency due to decide on vaccine on Friday
  • IshmaelZ said:


    TOPPING said:

    Off topic more or less, does anyone knows what the new customs rules are for buying from private sellers in the EU on Ebay? I'm looking at a fairly pricey item in Potsdam but still a pretty good deal, having a wheen of VAT and customs charges whacked on it makes it a lot less good

    You will be the importer of the product. Which means you will have to pay import VAT and tariffs (if appropriate), charges for the customs forms etc.

    Don't forget that the Department for International Trade have advised UK companies that the solution to selling in the EU is set up a new business there. Same is true for over here - unless a company has imported the product, paid all the fees etc and then sold it to you, its all on you and they will charge you dollar.
    Thanks, expected as much.
    We do of course need to know what it is you're buying from Potsdam.
    Tutima wrist watch, may not be now though :(
    Not one of the Saxon range, one assumes.
    No, but because they're the chunky boy style beloved of lower league footballers and tv chefs rather than the name.

    At least they're not at the level of ghastliness recently purchased by that taste free zone McGregor.




    How does he tell the time.....?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    MaxPB said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:
    And no this does not vindicate that german newspaper report unless it repeats the things they did - they were making specific claims about efficacy, not merely that due to various factors it might not be approved for over 65s.

    I can already predict who will claim it is vindication.
    Which other countries are giving it to their over 65s

    Ourselves and maybe Australia.

    Anybody else?
    India and South Africa.
    And other Asian nations: India has exported a lot of AZ to poorer neighbours, Bhutan etc
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,220
    edited January 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    That reminds me -- I've never watched The Third Man, even though I have the dvd.

    Amazing film. Easily the best film Orson Welles and Joseph Cotten ever made.

    (And yes, I have seen Citizen Kane as well.)

    Worth it just for the zither soundtrack, especially at the end, but there's so much more to enjoy.
    Watching it reminds us we're all in the sewers, but looking at the stars.
    That works neither for sewers in general nor the sewers in the 3rd man in paricular. Try gutter.
    I guess Welles and Cotten aren't stars in your universe.

    And if you're waxing pedantic on other's puns, you might at least sort out your blockquotes.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,908
    MaxPB said:

    The Philippines have approved the AstraZeneca vaccine.

    https://twitter.com/ABSCBNNews/status/1354754846906310657

    Good to see independent confirmation of the 70% immunity figure after one dose.

    It's going to be a long wait for full immunity and I hope everyone continues to stay safe for the 14 weeks it will take to get it.
    The key thing to remember is immunity and protection against severe disease are two different things, both are desirable but the one matters most is protecting against severe disease, and everything points to all the vaccines that have been approved being very good in that regards.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Big John, the whataboutery was making a point about who else had approved it when my point was clearly in relation to media reporting on reasons, not being critical of the decision to give partial approval. Given your well established views on the efficacy that was obviously deflecting to a different point.
  • kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    I think we are seeing with the vaccine response that old sore in the relationship of PB Leavers to the EU in their fruit-loop way: it's not enough for you to succeed; your friends must fail.

    Yes, the gleeful reaction of europhobes to the EU's vaccine troubles has been quite intense. I've given it some thought and I think what we might be seeing is an example of something known in the football world, and indeed in wider society, as Stockport County Syndrome. The name derives from the tendency of the more fervent supporters of a small town, perennially struggling club to take great pleasure from the occasional defeat of their wealthy, big city rivals. All very understandable on a human level, and certainly nothing to overly chastize people for, but of course it changes nothing. When the excitement dies down a week or so later, it's BAU. There is still Man Utd. And there is still Stockport County.
    I don't see a single person here "gleeful" that the EU is troubled.

    I see a lot of people acknowledging the EU is troubled, right down to williamglenn calling for UVDL's resignation on the subject. I see other people trying to whatabout or downplay just how serious this is.

    The EU aren't just failing to protect their own citizens, they're jeopardising us. The science and technology exists to eradicate this damned nasty bug but because they've chosen to cheap out on it instead its going to remain on our continent and risks mutation and reintroduction into this country.

    I don't see a single person happy about that.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,398
    edited January 2021

    Sky reporting AZ factory in Belgium was raided by Belgium authorities

    AZN to the EU

    I'm afraid everything that was in production has potentially been contaminated.

    What would you like us to do given that we aren't indemnified
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    edited January 2021
    Apols if already published, but this report on real-world Israeli experience with the Pfizer vaccine (ex-Guardian blog) is heartening: Seems thoroughly persuasive.

    -------
    One domestic healthcare provider, Maccabi, said today that out of 163,000 Israeli given both shots of the Pfizer-BioNtech vaccine, only 31 were infected with the coronavirus. That was compared with nearly 6,450 infections among a control group of unvaccinated people.

    Of the vaccinated people who were infected, none were hospitalised and only suffered mild effects, such as headaches. Maccabi said the data suggested the vaccine was 92% effective, close to the 95% that Pfizer claims.

    -------
    On the EU controversy, people are obviously not going to accept diverting vaccinations from high-risk recipients to go to the EU, but I wonder if an offer to share the Pfizer one once we've completed the over-60 range might be more acceptable. Are we really going to insist on vaccinating 30-year-olds as priority over a frail 80-year-old, just because the 30-year-old is British and the 80-year-old is Dutch?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:
    And no this does not vindicate that german newspaper report unless it repeats the things they did - they were making specific claims about efficacy, not merely that due to various factors it might not be approved for over 65s.

    I can already predict who will claim it is vindication.
    Which other countries are giving it to their over 65s

    Ourselves and maybe Australia.

    Anybody else?
    I'm not going to criticise the rationale behind a regulator's decision. It may well be one of those things that regulators can reasonably take different approaches on and I am no expect.

    The point was that the newspaper was making very specific claims about efficacy and the regulator's decision may not be based on that (but, for instance, on insufficient data for over 65s for example rather than that it barely works for them). If it is based on that, then as I said at the time the paper has done some dogged reporting.

    So you can try your whataboutery somewhere else. You were not the one I was thinking of.
    What whataboutery? We have administered millions of doses of AZ to over 65s including to my wife.

    I reckon its probably better having AZ than having nothing, but am naturally worried, particularly if other regulators follow the German lead.

    I wish we had enough Pfizer for all over 65s though. (And I know nobody else has either).

    Somebody earlier says we should know in a month how effective it is in oldies. Lets hope it comes out with a high number and Germany were being too cautious.
    Even the phase two data shows a near-identical immune response in the over-65s.
    German decision looking a bit strange then.

    Hopefully EMA come to a positive conclusion tomorrow.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    kinabalu said:

    TOPPING said:

    I think we are seeing with the vaccine response that old sore in the relationship of PB Leavers to the EU in their fruit-loop way: it's not enough for you to succeed; your friends must fail.

    Yes, the gleeful reaction of europhobes to the EU's vaccine troubles has been quite intense. I've given it some thought and I think what we might be seeing is an example of something known in the football world, and indeed in wider society, as Stockport County Syndrome. The name derives from the tendency of the more fervent supporters of a small town, perennially struggling club to take great pleasure from the occasional defeat of their wealthy, big city rivals. All very understandable on a human level, and certainly nothing to overly chastize people for, but of course it changes nothing. When the excitement dies down a week or so later, it's BAU. There is still Man Utd. And there is still Stockport County.
    The EU is not Man United, the UK is not Stockport County. The EU isn't even United. As we see
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,600


    TOPPING said:

    Off topic more or less, does anyone knows what the new customs rules are for buying from private sellers in the EU on Ebay? I'm looking at a fairly pricey item in Potsdam but still a pretty good deal, having a wheen of VAT and customs charges whacked on it makes it a lot less good

    You will be the importer of the product. Which means you will have to pay import VAT and tariffs (if appropriate), charges for the customs forms etc.

    Don't forget that the Department for International Trade have advised UK companies that the solution to selling in the EU is set up a new business there. Same is true for over here - unless a company has imported the product, paid all the fees etc and then sold it to you, its all on you and they will charge you dollar.
    Thanks, expected as much.
    We do of course need to know what it is you're buying from Potsdam.
    Tutima wrist watch, may not be now though :(
    I'm a vintage Jaeger-LeCoultre man myself...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,220
    .

    More essential than the essence of an essential thing.

    https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1354764567843364870?s=20

    I believe that's what's called seeing conditions on the ground for himself...
  • eekeek Posts: 28,398


    TOPPING said:

    Off topic more or less, does anyone knows what the new customs rules are for buying from private sellers in the EU on Ebay? I'm looking at a fairly pricey item in Potsdam but still a pretty good deal, having a wheen of VAT and customs charges whacked on it makes it a lot less good

    You will be the importer of the product. Which means you will have to pay import VAT and tariffs (if appropriate), charges for the customs forms etc.

    Don't forget that the Department for International Trade have advised UK companies that the solution to selling in the EU is set up a new business there. Same is true for over here - unless a company has imported the product, paid all the fees etc and then sold it to you, its all on you and they will charge you dollar.
    Thanks, expected as much.
    We do of course need to know what it is you're buying from Potsdam.
    Tutima wrist watch, may not be now though :(
    I'm a vintage Jaeger-LeCoultre man myself...
    I have various options from an Ebel el primero to various Omegas but if I wear a watch nowadays its from Apple.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,220

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:
    And no this does not vindicate that german newspaper report unless it repeats the things they did - they were making specific claims about efficacy, not merely that due to various factors it might not be approved for over 65s.

    I can already predict who will claim it is vindication.
    Which other countries are giving it to their over 65s

    Ourselves and maybe Australia.

    Anybody else?
    I'm not going to criticise the rationale behind a regulator's decision. It may well be one of those things that regulators can reasonably take different approaches on and I am no expect.

    The point was that the newspaper was making very specific claims about efficacy and the regulator's decision may not be based on that (but, for instance, on insufficient data for over 65s for example rather than that it barely works for them). If it is based on that, then as I said at the time the paper has done some dogged reporting.

    So you can try your whataboutery somewhere else. You were not the one I was thinking of.
    What whataboutery? We have administered millions of doses of AZ to over 65s including to my wife.

    I reckon its probably better having AZ than having nothing, but am naturally worried, particularly if other regulators follow the German lead.

    I wish we had enough Pfizer for all over 65s though. (And I know nobody else has either).

    Somebody earlier says we should know in a month how effective it is in oldies. Lets hope it comes out with a high number and Germany were being too cautious.
    You are aware that up until this week, the Pfizer came with exactly the same concern? There was insufficient data in the over-65s to prove that it did anything at all. Now we have data from Israel and it looks like the assumption that the similar immunogenicity profile across ages and the indicative efficacy results from the very small subsample have been borne out by reality.

    With the AZ, we're relying on the similar immunogenicity profile across ages and the indicative efficacy results from the very small subsample. Exactly the same thing.
    In any event, it won't be very long until hard data is available from the UK.
  • I don't think Tory MPs see the hypocrisy in their actions. Campaign that "no child be left behind" but vote against extending free school meals through the holidays.
    https://twitter.com/Matt_VickersMP/status/1354778853277892611
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,209

    I genuinely don’t understand the messaging from the EU here. They really want more of the AZ vaccine but they are only just about to approve it, and then not for the high risk groups? Early impressions matter. If they get the message out that this vaccine isn’t safe, the whole work suffers.

    It's simply that it is not yet proven to their required level of confidence that this vaccine is sufficiently effective in the over 65s to be worth giving. Different here. We reduced our required confidence levels for approval in the light of our NHS emergency.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    Off topic more or less, does anyone knows what the new customs rules are for buying from private sellers in the EU on Ebay? I'm looking at a fairly pricey item in Potsdam but still a pretty good deal, having a wheen of VAT and customs charges whacked on it makes it a lot less good

    Don't bother. It's more hassle than it's worth now. The courier companies just make up charges at random. I bought about 100 quid worth of 2CV parts from the Netherlands and paid nearly 250 quid in various imposts on top.

    I buy and sell a lot of Porsche parts on eBay and the game is now fraudlent values with the balance made up en noir. Recently bought a 991.2 GT3RS ECU and key set for "80 euros". Lol.
  • Apols if already published, but this report on real-world Israeli experience with the Pfizer vaccine (ex-Guardian blog) is heartening: Seems thoroughly persuasive.

    -------
    One domestic healthcare provider, Maccabi, said today that out of 163,000 Israeli given both shots of the Pfizer-BioNtech vaccine, only 31 were infected with the coronavirus. That was compared with nearly 6,450 infections among a control group of unvaccinated people.

    Of the vaccinated people who were infected, none were hospitalised and only suffered mild effects, such as headaches. Maccabi said the data suggested the vaccine was 92% effective, close to the 95% that Pfizer claims.

    -------
    On the EU controversy, people are obviously not going to accept diverting vaccinations from high-risk recipients to go to the EU, but I wonder if an offer to share the Pfizer one once we've completed the over-60 range might be more acceptable. Are we really going to insist on vaccinating 30-year-olds as priority over a frail 80-year-old, just because the 30-year-old is British and the 80-year-old is Dutch?

    Politics means we will, I suspect.

    “Minister, my 30 year old constituent X died of Covid complications yesterday that could have been avoided if only they had been vaccinated, but you gave away their dose. Will you resign”?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    Sky reporting AZ factory in Belgium was raided by Belgium authorities

    They had better have done something shady or the EU has gone barmy.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Endillion said:

    I'm confused. Why does Germany have a vaccine committee? Is this shorthand for the EMA, or does each EU country have to sign off separately?
    They are allowed to sign off separately

  • TOPPING said:

    Off topic more or less, does anyone knows what the new customs rules are for buying from private sellers in the EU on Ebay? I'm looking at a fairly pricey item in Potsdam but still a pretty good deal, having a wheen of VAT and customs charges whacked on it makes it a lot less good

    You will be the importer of the product. Which means you will have to pay import VAT and tariffs (if appropriate), charges for the customs forms etc.

    Don't forget that the Department for International Trade have advised UK companies that the solution to selling in the EU is set up a new business there. Same is true for over here - unless a company has imported the product, paid all the fees etc and then sold it to you, its all on you and they will charge you dollar.
    Thanks, expected as much.
    We do of course need to know what it is you're buying from Potsdam.
    Tutima wrist watch, may not be now though :(
    UK Retailer: https://remontoire68.com/product-category/tutima-glashutte-sa/
    Thanks, they don't have quite the model I was looking for, plus more expensive (even taking vat etc into account)!
  • kinabalu said:

    I genuinely don’t understand the messaging from the EU here. They really want more of the AZ vaccine but they are only just about to approve it, and then not for the high risk groups? Early impressions matter. If they get the message out that this vaccine isn’t safe, the whole work suffers.

    It's simply that it is not yet proven to their required level of confidence that this vaccine is sufficiently effective in the over 65s to be worth giving. Different here. We reduced our required confidence levels for approval in the light of our NHS emergency.
    I understand the core point, and that’s their choice. It’s the broader comms and the leaking of the suggestion that it’s unsafe which I don’t understand. It benefits nobody.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    edited January 2021

    IshmaelZ said:


    TOPPING said:

    Off topic more or less, does anyone knows what the new customs rules are for buying from private sellers in the EU on Ebay? I'm looking at a fairly pricey item in Potsdam but still a pretty good deal, having a wheen of VAT and customs charges whacked on it makes it a lot less good

    You will be the importer of the product. Which means you will have to pay import VAT and tariffs (if appropriate), charges for the customs forms etc.

    Don't forget that the Department for International Trade have advised UK companies that the solution to selling in the EU is set up a new business there. Same is true for over here - unless a company has imported the product, paid all the fees etc and then sold it to you, its all on you and they will charge you dollar.
    Thanks, expected as much.
    We do of course need to know what it is you're buying from Potsdam.
    Tutima wrist watch, may not be now though :(
    Not one of the Saxon range, one assumes.
    No, but because they're the chunky boy style beloved of lower league footballers and tv chefs rather than the name.

    At least they're not at the level of ghastliness recently purchased by that taste free zone McGregor.




    That is ghastly. I know watches are 'acceptable' jewelry for men but that's just awful.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,588
    edited January 2021
    Leon said:
    This may be an interesting example of the fact that Germany has a higher score on the Uncertainty Avoidance metric of Geert Hofstede's cultural dimensions compared to the UK, meaning that whereas in the UK we are happy to recommend the AZ vaccine for older people because it hasn't been shown to be dangerous to do so, the Germans want far more positive evidence that it's safe for that age group.

    Germany: 65
    UK: 35

    https://www.hofstede-insights.com/country-comparison/germany,the-uk/
This discussion has been closed.