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The vaccine wars shouldn’t surprise us given how COVID has blighted life around the world – politica

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  • eekeek Posts: 28,398
    edited January 2021

    Roger said:

    I've been as enthusiastic at slagging off Dominic Cummings as the next man over the last year, but a thought occurred to me last night following our discussion here on the Vaccine Task Force. This initiative is, by a country mile, the very best ting this government has done, probably in fact the only thing it has done well. Not just 'well' in the normal sense of good governance, but something beyond what you can normally expect governments to achieve. Not only has it put us in an excellent position in terms of Covid vaccine availability, but it has also positioned the UK extremely well for what will undoubtedly be a renewed world emphasis on vaccine technology and production. And it has done it super-fast.

    And how was it achieved? I find it awkward to admit this, but it's hard to avoid the conclusion that Cummings was behind it. It has all the hallmarks of his approach: by-passing the cumbersome workings of the normal Civil Service approach and instead get a small, talented, goal-focused team to super-charge the initiative. Of course it's an approach with great risks, but in this case also with an even greater pay-off.

    Of course virtually the entire media coverage last year on the Vaccine Task Force was devoted to garbage about 'cronies' and 'sleaze'. The fact that this was a spectacular success was lost in the deluge of faux-indignation.

    We might owe Cummings an apology...

    I think you might find that one of the quietest choruses you've ever heard
    Cummings had lots of great ideas, just that he had a lot of bad ones, and was an total arsehole. With a better and more diligent PM, a lot of the proposals had merit and could have been refined to be much better and workable.
    He needs to set up an Institute, where his ground-breaking ideas could be adopted by Government - but at one step removed from having him in Downing Street.
    That would require someone to find money for said Institute and sadly Cummings isn't a front man who could create such an institute.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited January 2021
    Pulpstar said:


    I've looked through the hit pieces, and stuff like she's a disruptor and so forth seem - well that's how stuff had to get done.

    Can you work out what the PR contracts might have been about ? That's small beer to the overall success of the project but seemed a reasonable point from the hit pieces back in November.
    Greasing the wheels with various global drug companies perhaps ?

    They've said it was about messaging to overcome people's resistance to accepting vaccines. I'm not sure it was money well spent, but as you say it's minor in the overall scheme of things.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    Sort of on topic, I know we laugh at America but people like this are our QAnon, it is utterly horrific viewing for so many reasons.

    Police are calling for public assistance in tracking down a man who was allegedly part of a group Covid deniers who tried to drag an elderly patient out of critical care at East Surrey Hospital.

    Tobe Hayden Leigh, 45, believed to be from Kent, is wanted in connection with a public nuisance offence after videos posted on social media showed a group entering the hospital to visit a family member on Thursday.

    After entering the critical care Covid ward, police say they were abusive to hospital staff who asked them to wear masks and refused to leave when asked to do so.

    Videos posted online by a YouTube account in Mr Hayden Leigh’s name appear to show an ICU doctor decrying the group for apparently removing the oxygen from the elderly patient.

    The doctor pleads: “My main concern is his safety and at the moment you are making him unsafe. You have taken his oxygen off, he is going to die if we don’t put it back on!”

    The patient appears to suggest he wants to leave the hospital, arguing with doctors that he won’t die if his oxygen is taken off.

    “If you go home, you will die,” the doctor says, later telling the group the patient will “last about half an hour” if he leaves hospital.

    Surrey and Sussex Healthcare NHS Trust say they allow any patient who has capacity to make decisions about their care to do so, including leaving hospital.

    The man livestreaming the incident then argues with the exasperated doctors, telling them the gravely ill patient should be put on the unproven treatment of “Vitamin C, Vitamin D and Zinc” if he is unhappy.

    Standing in the Covid ward he challenges doctors to “define coronavirus”, claiming it “hasn’t been proven to exist” and is “no longer a highly contagious infectious disease”.


    https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/covid-denier-nhs-east-surrey-hospital-police-hunt-elderly-man-tobe-hayden-leigh/

    That's some next level idiocy to stand within a Covid ward and not believe in Covid. He probably burns himself on hot things all the time, as he won't believe fire is hot.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,350

    BREAKING NEWS

    Following a tearful plea from Ursula von der Leyen, Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has authorised the transfer of vaccine doses from Scotland to its needy EU allies.

    Ms Sturgeon said: “As we move along our pathway to Independence and rejoining the EU it’s so important that we Scots show solidarity with our European brethren.

    “It’s heart-breaking to hear how that callous English bounder Boris Johnson elbowed his way to the head of the queue and ran off with all the doses.

    “We Scots are made of better stuff and I look forward to the fond embraces of Ursula, Michel, Emmanuel, Angela and all my pals over there just as soon as I am able to hop over the German Sea and join them in Brussels for a fish supper.”

    Don’t give up the day job.
    Ms Sturgeon has no intention of giving up the day job.

    Mr Salmond has other ideas.
    Uncanny...

    https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/opinion/columnists/alex-bell/2849884/team-sturgeon-switches-indy-policy-as-salmond-smells-a-political-comeback/
    People are fed up with those at the top just milking it and pretending they are trying to get Independence. All the halfwits they had running the show trying to pass GRA , Hate Bill etc have upset the natives. There is going to be a mighty clear out if Sturgeon does not progress on Independence, she is in last chance saloon , assuming she survives the chicanery and dirty dealings. Her fat and happy inner circle will go with her.
  • I don't get the fuss being made about the PM's trip to Scotland. This isn't the same as his jolly off to Olympic Park on his bike. This is work. *Politically* it will be self-defeating. But as a justifiable work trip that he can't do from home? Sure.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    I've been as enthusiastic at slagging off Dominic Cummings as the next man over the last year, but a thought occurred to me last night following our discussion here on the Vaccine Task Force. This initiative is, by a country mile, the very best ting this government has done, probably in fact the only thing it has done well. Not just 'well' in the normal sense of good governance, but something beyond what you can normally expect governments to achieve. Not only has it put us in an excellent position in terms of Covid vaccine availability, but it has also positioned the UK extremely well for what will undoubtedly be a renewed world emphasis on vaccine technology and production. And it has done it super-fast.

    And how was it achieved? I find it awkward to admit this, but it's hard to avoid the conclusion that Cummings was behind it. It has all the hallmarks of his approach: by-passing the cumbersome workings of the normal Civil Service approach and instead get a small, talented, goal-focused team to super-charge the initiative. Of course it's an approach with great risks, but in this case also with an even greater pay-off.

    Of course virtually the entire media coverage last year on the Vaccine Task Force was devoted to garbage about 'cronies' and 'sleaze'. The fact that this was a spectacular success was lost in the deluge of faux-indignation.

    We might owe Cummings an apology...

    From Kate Bingham in the VTF report:

    We should recognise the flexibility and nimbleness of the civil service and the Ministers who balanced appropriate oversight and governance measures with respect to spending taxpayer money, with the making of big, difficult decisions at pace. Without this streamlining of decision making, it is unlikely that the VTF could have delivered this successful range of outcomes in such a short time.
    Absolutely 100% this.

    Some people, I won't name names, have been relentlessly attacking the government and Bingham etc for not religiously abiding by oversight rules during the pandemic. But you can't and do it right.

    Now it is coming home to roost. As was said last year when discussing this: you can have it cheap, right or fast - pick two out of three.

    This needed to be done quickly, it needed to be done right. So by series of elimination ...
    Moderation in war is imbecility Jacky Fisher
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,204
    We've now passed 1 test per person during the pandemic. It'd be interesting to see the distribution of tests amongst the population.
    Probably more than half of people still haven't had a test ?
  • No, I think Sir Keir is in the clear on this. There were a few tweets from minor Labour figures, but the Shadow Cabinet didn't call for us to join the EU scheme.

    The LibDems and SNP, on the other hand....
  • Pulpstar said:


    I've looked through the hit pieces, and stuff like she's a disruptor and so forth seem - well that's how stuff had to get done.

    Can you work out what the PR contracts might have been about ? That's small beer to the overall success of the project but seemed a reasonable point from the hit pieces back in November.
    Greasing the wheels with various global drug companies perhaps ?

    They've said it was about messaging to overcome people's resistance to accepting vaccines. I'm not sure it was money well spent, but as you say it's minor in the overall scheme of things.
    Considering antivax sentiment is very real, especially in certain communities, tackling it certainly could be money well spent.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Roger said:

    MaxPB said:

    It haggled over price

    Over a vaccine that was being sold not for profit.....

    BTW, Bild has picked up on your point that if the EU shuts down vaccine export, other countries will shut down materials export, stopping all EU vaccine production.....
    An example of why cooperation is better than competition and why leaving the EU was such a stupid idea. What's the point of vaccinating in the UK if our neighbours aren't being vaccinated? They close their borders we close ours and we're all fucked.
    No. They close their borders and they are still fucked. We close our borders to them because they might still generate a mutant strain in their unvaxxed population that undoes all the good work the UK has done. But we can shortly return to the pre-Covid unfucked social life of going to family, restaurants, pubs, theatre, concerts, night clubs....
    You better look forward to your hols in Skeggy much more Roger!
    Hartlepool for Roger!

  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222

    I've been as enthusiastic at slagging off Dominic Cummings as the next man over the last year, but a thought occurred to me last night following our discussion here on the Vaccine Task Force. This initiative is, by a country mile, the very best ting this government has done, probably in fact the only thing it has done well. Not just 'well' in the normal sense of good governance, but something beyond what you can normally expect governments to achieve. Not only has it put us in an excellent position in terms of Covid vaccine availability, but it has also positioned the UK extremely well for what will undoubtedly be a renewed world emphasis on vaccine technology and production. And it has done it super-fast.

    And how was it achieved? I find it awkward to admit this, but it's hard to avoid the conclusion that Cummings was behind it. It has all the hallmarks of his approach: by-passing the cumbersome workings of the normal Civil Service approach and instead get a small, talented, goal-focused team to super-charge the initiative. Of course it's an approach with great risks, but in this case also with an even greater pay-off.

    Of course virtually the entire media coverage last year on the Vaccine Task Force was devoted to garbage about 'cronies' and 'sleaze'. The fact that this was a spectacular success was lost in the deluge of faux-indignation.

    We might owe Cummings an apology...

    I`ve never criticised him so he needs no apology from me.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,398
    edited January 2021

    eek said:

    Of course the EU f##king up vaccine procurement is just the latest in a series of f##k ups, remember similar PPE and ventilator schemes suffering the same issues.

    When Czechia started to really struggle in the autumn they asked the EU for all the ventilators they could send from this scheme...they got 30.

    I think the difference is that last time it wasn't quite as visible to the general public as lack of vaccine appointments are.

    This is an interesting read on how the EU got themselves into the mess they are in https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-coronavirus-vaccine-struggle-pfizer-biontech-astrazeneca/

    Price and liability are not things to talk about when you need manufacturing capacity and rapid delivery.

    Capacity, speed and price are 3 sides of a triangle on which you can select only 2. And they picked the wrong one to insist upon (before being late to start the project in the first place).

    The more I read that article the more I'm surprised the EU have any vaccines at the moment in time.
    A delayed order, Bancel said, “is not going to limit the total amount, but it is going to slow down delivery."

    Do you think they've learned that yet?
    By the looks of it no - the only upside is that when we have reached 100% vaccination or our restraints have moved from vaccination supply to vaccination capacity we will have a lot of spare vaccines that the EU could then access.

    So come April / June time we may be in a position to help the EU but it's not going to solve their immediate problems as nothing can solve that beyond stealing vaccines manufactured within the EU that have been sold elsewhere - and that would create real problems for them 2 to 3 months later as their ability to access raw ingredients disappears.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    Decline and Fall of the Brittas Empire?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    I've been as enthusiastic at slagging off Dominic Cummings as the next man over the last year, but a thought occurred to me last night following our discussion here on the Vaccine Task Force. This initiative is, by a country mile, the very best ting this government has done, probably in fact the only thing it has done well. Not just 'well' in the normal sense of good governance, but something beyond what you can normally expect governments to achieve. Not only has it put us in an excellent position in terms of Covid vaccine availability, but it has also positioned the UK extremely well for what will undoubtedly be a renewed world emphasis on vaccine technology and production. And it has done it super-fast.

    And how was it achieved? I find it awkward to admit this, but it's hard to avoid the conclusion that Cummings was behind it. It has all the hallmarks of his approach: by-passing the cumbersome workings of the normal Civil Service approach and instead get a small, talented, goal-focused team to super-charge the initiative. Of course it's an approach with great risks, but in this case also with an even greater pay-off.

    Of course virtually the entire media coverage last year on the Vaccine Task Force was devoted to garbage about 'cronies' and 'sleaze'. The fact that this was a spectacular success was lost in the deluge of faux-indignation.

    We might owe Cummings an apology...

    Good points in the first two paragraphs, wrong conclusions in the second two. It seems very plausible and perhaps even likely that Cummings was integral to the early speedy actions of the vaccine task force. He has strengths and weaknesses just like everyone else does, and this plays to his strengths. On plenty of other things his approach caused mayhem, division and inaction.

    Cronies, sleaze and ethics really do matter too though. We owe him no apology, but if he was involved in this we should thank him for that part of his service.
    Cummings comes across as someone who has some good ideas which work in some situations, the problem is he has a much more closed mind than he thinks, and he then tries to apply the same thinking to everything and wont back down if it doesnt work. A smart guy whose still not as smart as he thinks he is.

    He seems like a useful tool in the arsenal, but shouldn't be running things.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,462
    Pulpstar said:

    We've now passed 1 test per person during the pandemic. It'd be interesting to see the distribution of tests amongst the population.
    Probably more than half of people still haven't had a test ?

    From the Journal of N=1: I've had one but Mrs C hasn't.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DougSeal said:

    Apologies for off-topic, but yesterday's business trip revealed a stark lack of non-UK trucks on the M1. Saw a literal handful of EU trucks and the same low single-digit haul of Irish trucks.

    That's funny - taking our dog along to the vet yesterday on a short stretch of the M20 was surprised how many EU trucks I saw. Didn't notice any from Ireland admittedly was keeping an eye out in light of your many comments on here.
    Ah, but your in Kent! Presumably they are still stuck in Manston... :smiley:
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001

    I've been as enthusiastic at slagging off Dominic Cummings as the next man over the last year, but a thought occurred to me last night following our discussion here on the Vaccine Task Force. This initiative is, by a country mile, the very best ting this government has done, probably in fact the only thing it has done well. Not just 'well' in the normal sense of good governance, but something beyond what you can normally expect governments to achieve. Not only has it put us in an excellent position in terms of Covid vaccine availability, but it has also positioned the UK extremely well for what will undoubtedly be a renewed world emphasis on vaccine technology and production. And it has done it super-fast.

    What exactly did they do other than agree to buy lots of vaccine from every manufacturer?

    Right now that looks like a winning strategy, especially compared to track and trace where a similar approach crashed and burned...
  • Decline and Fall of the Brittas Empire?
    It was a shadow of itself when Fegen and Norriss stopped writing it. They had the perfect ending with Brittas squashed flat. Again. No need for the bad series 6 or the truly awful season 7.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    eek said:

    That would require someone to find money for said Institute and sadly Cummings isn't a front man who could create such an institute.

    Is that not the plan?

    He is going to set up his own DARPA and BoZo is going to throw money at it?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    TOPPING said:

    fpt re gamestop

    Charles said:
    Not necessarily.

    Because the rampers (ramping is abuse, of course, but these are individuals, not one party - unless the exchange/platform knows otherwise) are just buying the stock.

    It then went up because of the short squeeze as the hedgies tried to cover.

    They were just capitalising on supply shortage, not spreading rumours.


    I haven't looked deeply, but if they were coordinating on a message board with the intention of creating a short squeeze then I think that undermines an orderly market.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773

    No, I think Sir Keir is in the clear on this. There were a few tweets from minor Labour figures, but the Shadow Cabinet didn't call for us to join the EU scheme.

    The LibDems and SNP, on the other hand....
    To be fair looking at it, it seems to be true personally for him based on this:

    https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-johnson-claims-starmer-would-have-joined-eu-vaccine-scheme

    However, as they make out, lots and lots of labour bods were saying we should have much greater alignment with the EU and work with them on these issues, that to be gracious the labour position on it is 'muddy'.

    But goes to show labour and Starmers weakness. He's commentating and saying ' should do better' rather than having a clear counter-position.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,462
    Scott_xP said:

    eek said:

    That would require someone to find money for said Institute and sadly Cummings isn't a front man who could create such an institute.

    Is that not the plan?

    He is going to set up his own DARPA and BoZo is going to throw money at it?
    BoZo is going to throw our money at it.

    Fixed it for you.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598

    I don't get the fuss being made about the PM's trip to Scotland. This isn't the same as his jolly off to Olympic Park on his bike. This is work. *Politically* it will be self-defeating. But as a justifiable work trip that he can't do from home? Sure.

    There's always a Nippy response to Boris. If he doesn't go to Scotland during the pandemic it would be "So where is our so-called Prime Minister in all this? Does he not care about the suffering of the Scottish people? Does he even know where Scotland is?"
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,357
    Pulpstar said:

    What the EU actually needs to be doing NOW is throwing money at pharma companies to expand manufacturing capability within the EU itself. The plants don't come for free, but compared to the overall EU budget a few billion chucked at Sanofi for the express purpose of vaccine manufacture of say Pfizer under license would be incredibly well spent.
    I know Sanofi are shifting existing capability to do this already, but throwing money at them to duplicate this effort in say Poland - it wouldn't have an immediate return but further down the line they'd have vaccine robustness.

    One of the issues is that quite a few people don't understand the modern world.

    "We just buy stuff in, outsourcing!" - they cry.

    If I run a company, and I need 10,000 M8 x 50mm bolts in stainless steel, there is no point in me making the bolts myself. The amout is tiny, and the supply vast. I can ring a number of suppliers and get them in a day or 2. The cost of the manufacturing plant is shared among the buyers of zillions of bolts each year.

    If I run a company and I need 30% of the world production of something... I pretty much need to own the production line. If I don't, then I still end up paying for at least 30% of the capital cost of the world supply....

    Recently German car makers re-learnt this. They were buying batteries for electric cars on the open market. When they tried to increase production, the suppliers offered them batteries. At a *higher* price.

    This was because the suppliers had to create new factories to supply the demand. Since the carmakers were not offering long term contracts, the suppliers had to pay off the capital cost of new factories within the sort term contract. Or risk owning factory with no customer.

    Outsourcing works fine for standard items, when you are ordering 0.000001% of world production. For custom stuff and where the volume dominates world production, you need to invest in the production capability.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited January 2021

    TOPPING said:

    fpt re gamestop

    Charles said:
    Not necessarily.

    Because the rampers (ramping is abuse, of course, but these are individuals, not one party - unless the exchange/platform knows otherwise) are just buying the stock.

    It then went up because of the short squeeze as the hedgies tried to cover.

    They were just capitalising on supply shortage, not spreading rumours.

    If the reports that the shorts are naked and over 100% are correct, the market abuse is the short sellers. Not those holding contracts and shares.

    The suggestion that shares should be loaned without the consent of the owner, just so that the hedges can play with them, is particularly risible.
    Loaning without the consent of the owner is standard practice. Most of the big UK pension funds do it - it provides an attractive incremental income stream and if you are a long-term holder then short term volatility in the share price doesn't matter as the fundamentals drive the price over time
  • kle4 said:

    I've been as enthusiastic at slagging off Dominic Cummings as the next man over the last year, but a thought occurred to me last night following our discussion here on the Vaccine Task Force. This initiative is, by a country mile, the very best ting this government has done, probably in fact the only thing it has done well. Not just 'well' in the normal sense of good governance, but something beyond what you can normally expect governments to achieve. Not only has it put us in an excellent position in terms of Covid vaccine availability, but it has also positioned the UK extremely well for what will undoubtedly be a renewed world emphasis on vaccine technology and production. And it has done it super-fast.

    And how was it achieved? I find it awkward to admit this, but it's hard to avoid the conclusion that Cummings was behind it. It has all the hallmarks of his approach: by-passing the cumbersome workings of the normal Civil Service approach and instead get a small, talented, goal-focused team to super-charge the initiative. Of course it's an approach with great risks, but in this case also with an even greater pay-off.

    Of course virtually the entire media coverage last year on the Vaccine Task Force was devoted to garbage about 'cronies' and 'sleaze'. The fact that this was a spectacular success was lost in the deluge of faux-indignation.

    We might owe Cummings an apology...

    Good points in the first two paragraphs, wrong conclusions in the second two. It seems very plausible and perhaps even likely that Cummings was integral to the early speedy actions of the vaccine task force. He has strengths and weaknesses just like everyone else does, and this plays to his strengths. On plenty of other things his approach caused mayhem, division and inaction.

    Cronies, sleaze and ethics really do matter too though. We owe him no apology, but if he was involved in this we should thank him for that part of his service.
    Cummings comes across as someone who has some good ideas which work in some situations, the problem is he has a much more closed mind than he thinks, and he then tries to apply the same thinking to everything and wont back down if it doesnt work. A smart guy whose still not as smart as he thinks he is.

    He seems like a useful tool in the arsenal, but shouldn't be running things.
    'When all a man has is a hammer, everything is a nail.'
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    tlg86 said:

    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: .

    So, nothing then...

    Thanks
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    edited January 2021
    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I've been as enthusiastic at slagging off Dominic Cummings as the next man over the last year, but a thought occurred to me last night following our discussion here on the Vaccine Task Force. This initiative is, by a country mile, the very best ting this government has done, probably in fact the only thing it has done well. Not just 'well' in the normal sense of good governance, but something beyond what you can normally expect governments to achieve. Not only has it put us in an excellent position in terms of Covid vaccine availability, but it has also positioned the UK extremely well for what will undoubtedly be a renewed world emphasis on vaccine technology and production. And it has done it super-fast.

    What exactly did they do other than agree to buy lots of vaccine from every manufacturer?

    Right now that looks like a winning strategy, especially compared to track and trace where a similar approach crashed and burned...
    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

    Poor Scott. So so bitter.
    Outcomes matter. Jabs in Arms matter.. of course in Scott's world this means they didn't do anything.
  • Pulpstar said:

    We've now passed 1 test per person during the pandemic. It'd be interesting to see the distribution of tests amongst the population.
    Probably more than half of people still haven't had a test ?

    From the Journal of N=1: I've had one but Mrs C hasn't.
    That is the odd thing about the vaccination programme: they are jabbing couples separately. A friend and his wife are due to be vaccinated the same day but at different vaccination centres. You'd have thought it an obvious optimisation to process couples together.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,398
    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt re gamestop

    Charles said:
    Not necessarily.

    Because the rampers (ramping is abuse, of course, but these are individuals, not one party - unless the exchange/platform knows otherwise) are just buying the stock.

    It then went up because of the short squeeze as the hedgies tried to cover.

    They were just capitalising on supply shortage, not spreading rumours.
    I haven't looked deeply, but if they were coordinating on a message board with the intention of creating a short squeeze then I think that undermines an orderly market.

    I don't think explaining the background of what is happening is undermining an orderly market.

    The market isn't orderly but that's currently due to everyone jumping in. (Pre market opened with GME at $432 a share).
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,357
    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt re gamestop

    Charles said:
    Not necessarily.

    Because the rampers (ramping is abuse, of course, but these are individuals, not one party - unless the exchange/platform knows otherwise) are just buying the stock.

    It then went up because of the short squeeze as the hedgies tried to cover.

    They were just capitalising on supply shortage, not spreading rumours.

    If the reports that the shorts are naked and over 100% are correct, the market abuse is the short sellers. Not those holding contracts and shares.

    The suggestion that shares should be loaned without the consent of the owner, just so that the hedges can play with them, is particularly risible.
    Loaning without the consent of the owner is standard practice. Most of the big UK pension funds do it - it provides an attractive incremental income stream and if you are a long-term holder then short term volatility in the share price doesn't matter as the fundamentals drive the price over time
    The suggestion was floated that it should be done - against the express wishes of the owners!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001

    this means they didn't do anything.

    You could try reading the post.

    They did something. They bought everything.

    My question was where the strategic genius lies in that approach.

    It didn't work for any other part of the response.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,204
    edited January 2021
    eek said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt re gamestop

    Charles said:
    Not necessarily.

    Because the rampers (ramping is abuse, of course, but these are individuals, not one party - unless the exchange/platform knows otherwise) are just buying the stock.

    It then went up because of the short squeeze as the hedgies tried to cover.

    They were just capitalising on supply shortage, not spreading rumours.
    I haven't looked deeply, but if they were coordinating on a message board with the intention of creating a short squeeze then I think that undermines an orderly market.
    I don't think explaining the background of what is happening is undermining an orderly market.

    The market isn't orderly but that's currently due to everyone jumping in. (Pre market opened with GME at $432 a share).

    GME at $432

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EcjWd-O4jI&ab_channel=TechnotronicVEVO
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Pulpstar said:

    What the EU actually needs to be doing NOW is throwing money at pharma companies to expand manufacturing capability within the EU itself. The plants don't come for free, but compared to the overall EU budget a few billion chucked at Sanofi for the express purpose of vaccine manufacture of say Pfizer under license would be incredibly well spent.
    I know Sanofi are shifting existing capability to do this already, but throwing money at them to duplicate this effort in say Poland - it wouldn't have an immediate return but further down the line they'd have vaccine robustness.

    The problem is that that requires getting a team in place to do a lot of actual work, and making fast decisions on spending money.

    Much better to posture and threaten the suppliers, which is free and immediate.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited January 2021
    Charles said:

    I haven't looked deeply, but if they were coordinating on a message board with the intention of creating a short squeeze then I think that undermines an orderly market.

    Likewise haven't been following closely but doesn't pass the pump and dump test prima facie. Was it collusion? There are tip sheets and message boards all over the place for everything. But they would still need to have inflated the price on a dodgy premise (the "pump"). Which they don't appear to have. They just spotted that supply of the share was low vs demand and were, in as much as they could have, buying and holding.

    As individuals they will then have benefited from the increase in Px.

    But will be interesting to see the post-mortem (of eg Melvin and Citron)!
  • I don't get the fuss being made about the PM's trip to Scotland. This isn't the same as his jolly off to Olympic Park on his bike. This is work. *Politically* it will be self-defeating. But as a justifiable work trip that he can't do from home? Sure.

    There's always a Nippy response to Boris. If he doesn't go to Scotland during the pandemic it would be "So where is our so-called Prime Minister in all this? Does he not care about the suffering of the Scottish people? Does he even know where Scotland is?"
    Politically his trip north of the border to shore up the Union is ludicrous. Attack him on that, not on whether its a legitimate reason to make a trip.
  • Pulpstar said:


    I've looked through the hit pieces, and stuff like she's a disruptor and so forth seem - well that's how stuff had to get done.

    Can you work out what the PR contracts might have been about ? That's small beer to the overall success of the project but seemed a reasonable point from the hit pieces back in November.
    Greasing the wheels with various global drug companies perhaps ?

    They've said it was about messaging to overcome people's resistance to accepting vaccines. I'm not sure it was money well spent, but as you say it's minor in the overall scheme of things.
    Considering antivax sentiment is very real, especially in certain communities, tackling it certainly could be money well spent.
    Yes, certainly, but it's not obvious that the PR agency achieved much on that. But I could be wrong, none of us have seen the workings. And, frankly, who cares? It's not exactly the Tanganyika groundnut scheme or Blair's £10billion on the NHS database project.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,357
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I've been as enthusiastic at slagging off Dominic Cummings as the next man over the last year, but a thought occurred to me last night following our discussion here on the Vaccine Task Force. This initiative is, by a country mile, the very best ting this government has done, probably in fact the only thing it has done well. Not just 'well' in the normal sense of good governance, but something beyond what you can normally expect governments to achieve. Not only has it put us in an excellent position in terms of Covid vaccine availability, but it has also positioned the UK extremely well for what will undoubtedly be a renewed world emphasis on vaccine technology and production. And it has done it super-fast.

    What exactly did they do other than agree to buy lots of vaccine from every manufacturer?

    Right now that looks like a winning strategy, especially compared to track and trace where a similar approach crashed and burned...
    Apparently they've done a lot of work on building vaccine production capacity in the UK.
    - They bought the vaccines, spread across the various technologies.
    - They invested in physical plant here in the UK
    - They invested in the supply chain to the vaccine making process
    - They planned the massively expanded vaccine delivery chain and invested in doing so.

    What the EU (largely) did was to

    - Buy lots of vaccine from *some* manufacturers.
    - Some investment in production, but nowhere near what the US and UK did.
    - Some countries invested in expanded the vaccine delivery chain - such as Germany. But not as much and many did nothing.

  • RH1992RH1992 Posts: 788
    edited January 2021
    Desmond Swayne is having a hard time on Sky News at the minute.

    Claiming that his figures were taken out of context, Adam Boulton not standing for it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    Pulpstar said:

    eek said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt re gamestop

    Charles said:
    Not necessarily.

    Because the rampers (ramping is abuse, of course, but these are individuals, not one party - unless the exchange/platform knows otherwise) are just buying the stock.

    It then went up because of the short squeeze as the hedgies tried to cover.

    They were just capitalising on supply shortage, not spreading rumours.
    I haven't looked deeply, but if they were coordinating on a message board with the intention of creating a short squeeze then I think that undermines an orderly market.
    I don't think explaining the background of what is happening is undermining an orderly market.

    The market isn't orderly but that's currently due to everyone jumping in. (Pre market opened with GME at $432 a share).
    GME at $432

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EcjWd-O4jI&ab_channel=TechnotronicVEVO
    The hedgies are about to be shown for having no pants on, as the tide quickly recedes. Well done to fans of GameStop, who stopped the moneymen from flattening the company.

    (Oh, and another awesome song from childhood, that’s now 32 years old! )
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    What the EU actually needs to be doing NOW is throwing money at pharma companies to expand manufacturing capability within the EU itself. The plants don't come for free, but compared to the overall EU budget a few billion chucked at Sanofi for the express purpose of vaccine manufacture of say Pfizer under license would be incredibly well spent.
    I know Sanofi are shifting existing capability to do this already, but throwing money at them to duplicate this effort in say Poland - it wouldn't have an immediate return but further down the line they'd have vaccine robustness.

    The problem is that that requires getting a team in place to do a lot of actual work, and making fast decisions on spending money.
    I wish the EU good luck on that one.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    Scott_xP said:

    this means they didn't do anything.

    You could try reading the post.

    They did something. They bought everything.

    My question was where the strategic genius lies in that approach.

    It didn't work for any other part of the response.
    Even @williamglenn the biggest Europhile on this forum has criticised the EU over this. They screwed up. And they've brought themselves into disrepute with their response to that.

    If you can't find it within yourself to do the same then you've forfeited the right to ever be taken seriously on the subject again.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    RH1992 said:

    Desmond Swayne is having a hard time on Sky News at the minute.

    Claiming that his figures were taken out of context, Adam Boulton not standing for it.

    Good
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,357

    Pulpstar said:


    I've looked through the hit pieces, and stuff like she's a disruptor and so forth seem - well that's how stuff had to get done.

    Can you work out what the PR contracts might have been about ? That's small beer to the overall success of the project but seemed a reasonable point from the hit pieces back in November.
    Greasing the wheels with various global drug companies perhaps ?

    They've said it was about messaging to overcome people's resistance to accepting vaccines. I'm not sure it was money well spent, but as you say it's minor in the overall scheme of things.
    Considering antivax sentiment is very real, especially in certain communities, tackling it certainly could be money well spent.
    Yes, certainly, but it's not obvious that the PR agency achieved much on that. But I could be wrong, none of us have seen the workings. And, frankly, who cares? It's not exactly the Tanganyika groundnut scheme or Blair's £10billion on the NHS database project.
    The constant stream of X aged national treasure getting the vaccine - that was all coordinated. Unless you believe the cameras accidentally showed up.

    Someone organised the faith groups and community leaders to speak out against anti-vax and participate in the vaccination campaign....
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410

    Pulpstar said:

    We've now passed 1 test per person during the pandemic. It'd be interesting to see the distribution of tests amongst the population.
    Probably more than half of people still haven't had a test ?

    From the Journal of N=1: I've had one but Mrs C hasn't.
    That is the odd thing about the vaccination programme: they are jabbing couples separately. A friend and his wife are due to be vaccinated the same day but at different vaccination centres. You'd have thought it an obvious optimisation to process couples together.
    My in laws were jabbed together. A nurse was sent round the village to jab all in group 2. Plus any group 3 and 4 in the same household.
    Maybe a reason the NE got off to a flier? Certainly, possibly the kind of thinking that sees one area ahead of another?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    MaxPB said:

    This is why we left the EU. An unaccountable executive body that never admits it's mistakes. The commission completely and utterly fucked up the vaccine procurement process. It haggled over price, was slow and bureaucratic at a time where speed was important and cost irrelevant.

    Now when countries which moved quickly are seeing the fruits of that labour with rapid vaccination of their vulnerable and short timelines for everyone else they have realised just how badly they fucked it.

    The difference is that in 2024 the British people can make Boris pay for all of the fuck ups and more that 100k deaths that are on his hands. Who in Europe will pay for the extra hundreds of thousands that will die because there's no vaccines. No one. The national politicians will pass the buck and the commission is impossible to sack.

    Leave voters were lambasted time and again for pointing out just how undemocratic the EU is and now handily, just after we've left, we have an example of it, one that is undermining the western alliance with threats of export bans.

    This, to me, goes beyond just vaccines. It shows that a political class that isn't under pressure from voters is inherently worse than one that is. The EU commission is a technocratic body that has failed at basic competence on almost everything to do with the virus and now they are trying to shift the blame into AZ and the UK government.

    It is not democracy if there is no mechanism for voters to remove those failures from power.

    Very well said.
  • I don't get the fuss being made about the PM's trip to Scotland. This isn't the same as his jolly off to Olympic Park on his bike. This is work. *Politically* it will be self-defeating. But as a justifiable work trip that he can't do from home? Sure.

    There's always a Nippy response to Boris. If he doesn't go to Scotland during the pandemic it would be "So where is our so-called Prime Minister in all this? Does he not care about the suffering of the Scottish people? Does he even know where Scotland is?"
    Yup, for the last few months we've been battered by a slew of statements from the SG and SNP asking why isn't the Prime Minister visiting Scotland.

    If you ever wanted an example of prime PB Scotch expertise, it's the idea that anyone outside the SCons would be dumb enough to say we need more Boris. Even some of the SCons, particularly the enthusiasts for Operation Arse, might be heard emitting groans...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I've been as enthusiastic at slagging off Dominic Cummings as the next man over the last year, but a thought occurred to me last night following our discussion here on the Vaccine Task Force. This initiative is, by a country mile, the very best ting this government has done, probably in fact the only thing it has done well. Not just 'well' in the normal sense of good governance, but something beyond what you can normally expect governments to achieve. Not only has it put us in an excellent position in terms of Covid vaccine availability, but it has also positioned the UK extremely well for what will undoubtedly be a renewed world emphasis on vaccine technology and production. And it has done it super-fast.

    What exactly did they do other than agree to buy lots of vaccine from every manufacturer?

    Right now that looks like a winning strategy, especially compared to track and trace where a similar approach crashed and burned...
    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

    Poor Scott. So so bitter.
    Don't worry, he can always go to France and get his vaccine. Oh right.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Roger said:

    MaxPB said:

    It haggled over price

    Over a vaccine that was being sold not for profit.....

    BTW, Bild has picked up on your point that if the EU shuts down vaccine export, other countries will shut down materials export, stopping all EU vaccine production.....
    An example of why cooperation is better than competition and why leaving the EU was such a stupid idea. What's the point of vaccinating in the UK if our neighbours aren't being vaccinated? They close their borders we close ours and we're all fucked.
    No. They close their borders and they are still fucked. We close our borders to them because they might still generate a mutant strain in their unvaxxed population that undoes all the good work the UK has done. But we can shortly return to the pre-Covid unfucked social life of going to family, restaurants, pubs, theatre, concerts, night clubs....
    You better look forward to your hols in Skeggy much more Roger!
    Hartlepool for Roger!

    Oh that would be delicious


  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599
    edited January 2021
    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt re gamestop

    Charles said:

    Market abuse.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Thursday

    Not necessarily.

    Because the rampers (ramping is abuse, of course, but these are individuals, not one party - unless the exchange/platform knows otherwise) are just buying the stock.

    It then went up because of the short squeeze as the hedgies tried to cover.

    They were just capitalising on supply shortage, not spreading rumours.

    I haven't looked deeply, but if they were coordinating on a message board with the intention of creating a short squeeze then I think that undermines an orderly market.
    They were just buying shares in one of their favourite companies, amid reports of hedgies trying to flatten the shares to buy it for pennies.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,204

    Pulpstar said:


    I've looked through the hit pieces, and stuff like she's a disruptor and so forth seem - well that's how stuff had to get done.

    Can you work out what the PR contracts might have been about ? That's small beer to the overall success of the project but seemed a reasonable point from the hit pieces back in November.
    Greasing the wheels with various global drug companies perhaps ?

    They've said it was about messaging to overcome people's resistance to accepting vaccines. I'm not sure it was money well spent, but as you say it's minor in the overall scheme of things.
    Considering antivax sentiment is very real, especially in certain communities, tackling it certainly could be money well spent.
    Yes, certainly, but it's not obvious that the PR agency achieved much on that. But I could be wrong, none of us have seen the workings. And, frankly, who cares? It's not exactly the Tanganyika groundnut scheme or Blair's £10billion on the NHS database project.
    There's a good cross party effort from black MPs on that front. The polling suggests as people see others get the vaccine, they themselves will want to get it.
    Much more in that group than the outright loons who subscribe to the Corbyn/Icke nonsense.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,204
    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt re gamestop

    Charles said:
    Not necessarily.

    Because the rampers (ramping is abuse, of course, but these are individuals, not one party - unless the exchange/platform knows otherwise) are just buying the stock.

    It then went up because of the short squeeze as the hedgies tried to cover.

    They were just capitalising on supply shortage, not spreading rumours.

    If the reports that the shorts are naked and over 100% are correct, the market abuse is the short sellers. Not those holding contracts and shares.

    The suggestion that shares should be loaned without the consent of the owner, just so that the hedges can play with them, is particularly risible.
    Loaning without the consent of the owner is standard practice. Most of the big UK pension funds do it - it provides an attractive incremental income stream and if you are a long-term holder then short term volatility in the share price doesn't matter as the fundamentals drive the price over time
    The memelords are in charge now Charles.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001

    Even @williamglenn the biggest Europhile on this forum has criticised the EU over this.

    Ummm, in case you hadn't noticed, we left the EU.

    Why would we care what they do?

    My question was about the UK response. The whole point of Brexit according to some. Hold our own elected leaders accountable, right?
  • RH1992 said:

    Desmond Swayne is having a hard time on Sky News at the minute.

    Claiming that his figures were taken out of context, Adam Boulton not standing for it.

    He's an absolute moron and an embarrassment.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,588
    edited January 2021

    Pulpstar said:

    We've now passed 1 test per person during the pandemic. It'd be interesting to see the distribution of tests amongst the population.
    Probably more than half of people still haven't had a test ?

    From the Journal of N=1: I've had one but Mrs C hasn't.
    That is the odd thing about the vaccination programme: they are jabbing couples separately. A friend and his wife are due to be vaccinated the same day but at different vaccination centres. You'd have thought it an obvious optimisation to process couples together.
    It is strange. It's almost as if they're trying so hard to avoid being accused of giving jab recipients preferential treatment based on their relationship with other people that they're making the process more cumbersome than it could be. "Just because your wife is being vaccinated today at a difficult to reach location doesn't mean that you can have your jab today, even though you're driving her to the vaccination centre".
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    Why can't Brexiteers let go of the EU?

    https://twitter.com/pkelso/status/1354748100590637061
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Scott_xP said:

    this means they didn't do anything.

    You could try reading the post.

    They did something. They bought everything.

    My question was where the strategic genius lies in that approach.

    It didn't work for any other part of the response.
    Even @williamglenn the biggest Europhile on this forum has criticised the EU over this. They screwed up. And they've brought themselves into disrepute with their response to that.

    If you can't find it within yourself to do the same then you've forfeited the right to ever be taken seriously on the subject again.
    Some of us stopped taking him seriously a long waaay back - just saying :smile:
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt re gamestop

    Charles said:
    Not necessarily.

    Because the rampers (ramping is abuse, of course, but these are individuals, not one party - unless the exchange/platform knows otherwise) are just buying the stock.

    It then went up because of the short squeeze as the hedgies tried to cover.

    They were just capitalising on supply shortage, not spreading rumours.

    If the reports that the shorts are naked and over 100% are correct, the market abuse is the short sellers. Not those holding contracts and shares.

    The suggestion that shares should be loaned without the consent of the owner, just so that the hedges can play with them, is particularly risible.
    Loaning without the consent of the owner is standard practice. Most of the big UK pension funds do it - it provides an attractive incremental income stream and if you are a long-term holder then short term volatility in the share price doesn't matter as the fundamentals drive the price over time
    Can you explain like I'm five how this works, cos I have never understood it. You borrow stock from A and sell it to B, so what happens if A says I want my stock back, it was only on loan, and B says I want that stock, you sold it to me? Presumably you have to go into the market and buy as much stock again as you borrowed, just as a naked shorter would. The only difference is he has 0 and needs 1, you have 1 and need 2. What is the substantive ethical difference?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,204
    Scott_xP said:

    Even @williamglenn the biggest Europhile on this forum has criticised the EU over this.

    Ummm, in case you hadn't noticed, we left the EU.

    Why would we care what they do?
    As you say, our procurement and their procurement should have nothing to do with each other. We're both far too rich to be taking rather than giving to any sort fo global effort re: Covax. But they seem to be asking after our vaccine stocks !
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    kle4 said:

    I'm amazed vaccine wars took this long. I expected it the instant the first ones started.

    It was always going to fill a niche in the market, what with no more Robot Wars....
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Scott_xP said:

    Even @williamglenn the biggest Europhile on this forum has criticised the EU over this.

    Ummm, in case you hadn't noticed, we left the EU.

    Why would we care what they do?

    My question was about the UK response. The whole point of Brexit according to some. Hold our own elected leaders accountable, right?
    We're also not a member of the USA. Yet it doesn't stop people posting a constant stream of stuff about them on here.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Even @williamglenn the biggest Europhile on this forum has criticised the EU over this.

    Ummm, in case you hadn't noticed, we left the EU.

    Why would we care what they do?

    My question was about the UK response. The whole point of Brexit according to some. Hold our own elected leaders accountable, right?
    Yes and it's led on vaccines to a far superior solution.

    When YOU PERSONALLY where not long ago were sharing moronic Tweets about how the EUs vaccine purchasing scheme had saved money relative to the UKs one.

    Not learnt any lessons it seems.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,204
    Andy_JS said:

    Pulpstar said:

    We've now passed 1 test per person during the pandemic. It'd be interesting to see the distribution of tests amongst the population.
    Probably more than half of people still haven't had a test ?

    From the Journal of N=1: I've had one but Mrs C hasn't.
    That is the odd thing about the vaccination programme: they are jabbing couples separately. A friend and his wife are due to be vaccinated the same day but at different vaccination centres. You'd have thought it an obvious optimisation to process couples together.
    It is strange. It's almost as if they're trying so hard to avoid being accused of giving jab recipients preferential treatment based on their relationship with other people that they're making the process more cumbersome than it could be. "Just because your wife is being vaccinated today at a difficult to reach location doesn't mean that you can have your jab today, even though you're driving her to the vaccination centre".
    Couples should be done at the same place. For one thing they don't need to socially distance from each other with the post vax 15 minute observation requirement.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Even @williamglenn the biggest Europhile on this forum has criticised the EU over this.

    Ummm, in case you hadn't noticed, we left the EU.

    Why would we care what they do?

    My question was about the UK response. The whole point of Brexit according to some. Hold our own elected leaders accountable, right?
    Why would we care if the EU threaten to stop exports of vaccine to us? Seriously? Is that your argument?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    Scott_xP said:

    Even @williamglenn the biggest Europhile on this forum has criticised the EU over this.

    Ummm, in case you hadn't noticed, we left the EU.

    Why would we care what they do?

    My question was about the UK response. The whole point of Brexit according to some. Hold our own elected leaders accountable, right?
    Lol!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001

    Why would we care if the EU threaten to stop exports of vaccine to us? Seriously? Is that your argument?

    Nope.

    Read the thread.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Scott_xP said:

    Even @williamglenn the biggest Europhile on this forum has criticised the EU over this.

    Ummm, in case you hadn't noticed, we left the EU.

    Why would we care what they do?

    My question was about the UK response. The whole point of Brexit according to some. Hold our own elected leaders accountable, right?
    Yes and it's led on vaccines to a far superior solution.

    When YOU PERSONALLY where not long ago were sharing moronic Tweets about how the EUs vaccine purchasing scheme had saved money relative to the UKs one.

    Not learnt any lessons it seems.
    And we all know dammed well if the shoe was on the other foot he would be sharing tweet after tweet showing how we had got it wrong.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Scott_xP said:

    this means they didn't do anything.

    You could try reading the post.

    They did something. They bought everything.

    My question was where the strategic genius lies in that approach.

    It didn't work for any other part of the response.

    Even prior to Covid, T May had done alot of work on a industrial strategy for vaccination production in the UK, eg the Vaccines Manufacturing Innovation Centre. I suspect this was built on by the vaccines task force, whereas for the other repsonses, eg Test and Trace, there was no existing framework.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    ydoethur said:

    Floater said:
    Head

    Desk

    Thump

    No wonder the Darwin Awards have been suspended.
    Give it 10 days before the Sun headline "Infection sprouts in Brussels"?
    Covid mushrooms as Brussels sprouts new cases?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    MaxPB said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Even @williamglenn the biggest Europhile on this forum has criticised the EU over this.

    Ummm, in case you hadn't noticed, we left the EU.

    Why would we care what they do?

    My question was about the UK response. The whole point of Brexit according to some. Hold our own elected leaders accountable, right?
    Because they fucked up their vaccine purchasing and are demanding our supply you complete and utter cretin.

    And we will hold this lot to account, in 2024 (likely well before then) Boris will get what's coming to him. What mechanism is there to remove the commissioners who failed everyone in Europe and are now demanding UK vaccine supply be diverted?

    Fuck you, Scott. You're pathetic.
    Oh, very well said sir.

  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    Now now people, let Scott go back to his comfort zone of pasting things. It's clearly where he's happier.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,239
    edited January 2021

    I've been as enthusiastic at slagging off Dominic Cummings as the next man over the last year, but a thought occurred to me last night following our discussion here on the Vaccine Task Force. This initiative is, by a country mile, the very best ting this government has done, probably in fact the only thing it has done well. Not just 'well' in the normal sense of good governance, but something beyond what you can normally expect governments to achieve. Not only has it put us in an excellent position in terms of Covid vaccine availability, but it has also positioned the UK extremely well for what will undoubtedly be a renewed world emphasis on vaccine technology and production. And it has done it super-fast.

    And how was it achieved? I find it awkward to admit this, but it's hard to avoid the conclusion that Cummings was behind it. It has all the hallmarks of his approach: by-passing the cumbersome workings of the normal Civil Service approach and instead get a small, talented, goal-focused team to super-charge the initiative. Of course it's an approach with great risks, but in this case also with an even greater pay-off.

    Of course virtually the entire media coverage last year on the Vaccine Task Force was devoted to garbage about 'cronies' and 'sleaze'. The fact that this was a spectacular success was lost in the deluge of faux-indignation.

    We might owe Cummings an apology...

    From Kate Bingham in the VTF report:

    We should recognise the flexibility and nimbleness of the civil service and the Ministers who balanced appropriate oversight and governance measures with respect to spending taxpayer money, with the making of big, difficult decisions at pace. Without this streamlining of decision making, it is unlikely that the VTF could have delivered this successful range of outcomes in such a short time.
    Absolutely 100% this.

    Some people, I won't name names, have been relentlessly attacking the government and Bingham etc for not religiously abiding by oversight rules during the pandemic. But you can't and do it right.

    Now it is coming home to roost. As was said last year when discussing this: you can have it cheap, right or fast - pick two out of three.

    This needed to be done quickly, it needed to be done right. So by series of elimination ...
    Moderation in war is imbecility Jacky Fisher
    "Give me my Detonators ... er ... Battleships"

    (TBF some of them were detonators)
  • eekeek Posts: 28,398
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Why can't Brexiteers let go of the EU?

    https://twitter.com/pkelso/status/1354748100590637061

    LOL. Because all this definitely didn’t start with EU politicians and German newspapers.
    Anything to distract things from his stupid comments while hoping that Boris and co don't permanently withdraw the whip for his stupidity.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited January 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt re gamestop

    Charles said:
    Not necessarily.

    Because the rampers (ramping is abuse, of course, but these are individuals, not one party - unless the exchange/platform knows otherwise) are just buying the stock.

    It then went up because of the short squeeze as the hedgies tried to cover.

    They were just capitalising on supply shortage, not spreading rumours.

    If the reports that the shorts are naked and over 100% are correct, the market abuse is the short sellers. Not those holding contracts and shares.

    The suggestion that shares should be loaned without the consent of the owner, just so that the hedges can play with them, is particularly risible.
    Loaning without the consent of the owner is standard practice. Most of the big UK pension funds do it - it provides an attractive incremental income stream and if you are a long-term holder then short term volatility in the share price doesn't matter as the fundamentals drive the price over time
    Can you explain like I'm five how this works, cos I have never understood it. You borrow stock from A and sell it to B, so what happens if A says I want my stock back, it was only on loan, and B says I want that stock, you sold it to me? Presumably you have to go into the market and buy as much stock again as you borrowed, just as a naked shorter would. The only difference is he has 0 and needs 1, you have 1 and need 2. What is the substantive ethical difference?
    You have already sold the stock to B so forget about that side.

    Which leaves A. You have sold the stock on but borrowed it and now A wants it back. You have to go into the market and buy it. If you borrowed it while it was, and therefore sold it for $10 and it is now $5 you buy it for $5 and return it to the borrower. Everyone is happy.

    If the stock is now $15 you still have to buy it because the borrower still wants it but you now have to pay $15 and you sold it for $10 so you lose $5.

    If you are selling short naked (illegal) you sell the stock without having borrowed it first. Although the (>100%) short interest can reflect multiple buyers then lending the stock (think multiple deposit creation).
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I've been as enthusiastic at slagging off Dominic Cummings as the next man over the last year, but a thought occurred to me last night following our discussion here on the Vaccine Task Force. This initiative is, by a country mile, the very best ting this government has done, probably in fact the only thing it has done well. Not just 'well' in the normal sense of good governance, but something beyond what you can normally expect governments to achieve. Not only has it put us in an excellent position in terms of Covid vaccine availability, but it has also positioned the UK extremely well for what will undoubtedly be a renewed world emphasis on vaccine technology and production. And it has done it super-fast.

    And how was it achieved? I find it awkward to admit this, but it's hard to avoid the conclusion that Cummings was behind it. It has all the hallmarks of his approach: by-passing the cumbersome workings of the normal Civil Service approach and instead get a small, talented, goal-focused team to super-charge the initiative. Of course it's an approach with great risks, but in this case also with an even greater pay-off.

    Of course virtually the entire media coverage last year on the Vaccine Task Force was devoted to garbage about 'cronies' and 'sleaze'. The fact that this was a spectacular success was lost in the deluge of faux-indignation.

    We might owe Cummings an apology...

    Good points in the first two paragraphs, wrong conclusions in the second two. It seems very plausible and perhaps even likely that Cummings was integral to the early speedy actions of the vaccine task force. He has strengths and weaknesses just like everyone else does, and this plays to his strengths. On plenty of other things his approach caused mayhem, division and inaction.

    Cronies, sleaze and ethics really do matter too though. We owe him no apology, but if he was involved in this we should thank him for that part of his service.
    The issue is that Kate Bingham was criticised for being a crony (she is married to a Tory MP) without considering the possibility that she was actually incredibly well suited to the role.

    Dido failed in her task, but to a civil servant reviewing her CV (managing call centres) it would appear plausible
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    MaxPB said:

    Because they fucked up their vaccine purchasing and are demanding our supply you complete and utter cretin.

    I asked about the UK response.

    You said I had to criticise the EU.

    The latter has no bearing on the former.

    Try again.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,357
    MattW said:

    I've been as enthusiastic at slagging off Dominic Cummings as the next man over the last year, but a thought occurred to me last night following our discussion here on the Vaccine Task Force. This initiative is, by a country mile, the very best ting this government has done, probably in fact the only thing it has done well. Not just 'well' in the normal sense of good governance, but something beyond what you can normally expect governments to achieve. Not only has it put us in an excellent position in terms of Covid vaccine availability, but it has also positioned the UK extremely well for what will undoubtedly be a renewed world emphasis on vaccine technology and production. And it has done it super-fast.

    And how was it achieved? I find it awkward to admit this, but it's hard to avoid the conclusion that Cummings was behind it. It has all the hallmarks of his approach: by-passing the cumbersome workings of the normal Civil Service approach and instead get a small, talented, goal-focused team to super-charge the initiative. Of course it's an approach with great risks, but in this case also with an even greater pay-off.

    Of course virtually the entire media coverage last year on the Vaccine Task Force was devoted to garbage about 'cronies' and 'sleaze'. The fact that this was a spectacular success was lost in the deluge of faux-indignation.

    We might owe Cummings an apology...

    From Kate Bingham in the VTF report:

    We should recognise the flexibility and nimbleness of the civil service and the Ministers who balanced appropriate oversight and governance measures with respect to spending taxpayer money, with the making of big, difficult decisions at pace. Without this streamlining of decision making, it is unlikely that the VTF could have delivered this successful range of outcomes in such a short time.
    Absolutely 100% this.

    Some people, I won't name names, have been relentlessly attacking the government and Bingham etc for not religiously abiding by oversight rules during the pandemic. But you can't and do it right.

    Now it is coming home to roost. As was said last year when discussing this: you can have it cheap, right or fast - pick two out of three.

    This needed to be done quickly, it needed to be done right. So by series of elimination ...
    Moderation in war is imbecility Jacky Fisher
    "Give me my Detonators ... er ... Battleships"

    (TBF some of them were detonators)
    We want 8 vaccine factories and We Won't Wait!
  • RH1992RH1992 Posts: 788
    edited January 2021
    Chris said:

    Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?

    Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the coronavirus restrictions.
  • Scott_xP said:

    MaxPB said:

    Because they fucked up their vaccine purchasing and are demanding our supply you complete and utter cretin.

    I asked about the UK response.

    You said I had to criticise the EU.

    The latter has no bearing on the former.

    Try again.
    So you intend to give credit where it is due and praise Bingham, Boris, AZN and everyone who has brought about the UK's vaccine response?

    I shan't be holding my breath but you could always surprise and have a smidgen of dignity.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,996
    edited January 2021

    I don't get the fuss being made about the PM's trip to Scotland. This isn't the same as his jolly off to Olympic Park on his bike. This is work. *Politically* it will be self-defeating. But as a justifiable work trip that he can't do from home? Sure.

    There's always a Nippy response to Boris. If he doesn't go to Scotland during the pandemic it would be "So where is our so-called Prime Minister in all this? Does he not care about the suffering of the Scottish people? Does he even know where Scotland is?"
    Politically his trip north of the border to shore up the Union is ludicrous. Attack him on that, not on whether its a legitimate reason to make a trip.
    I think it's great, should shut up all those saying campaigning for a divisive referendum is entirely inappropriate during the Covid crisis.
    (Narrator: it didn't)
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,878
    edited January 2021

    MattW said:

    I've been as enthusiastic at slagging off Dominic Cummings as the next man over the last year, but a thought occurred to me last night following our discussion here on the Vaccine Task Force. This initiative is, by a country mile, the very best ting this government has done, probably in fact the only thing it has done well. Not just 'well' in the normal sense of good governance, but something beyond what you can normally expect governments to achieve. Not only has it put us in an excellent position in terms of Covid vaccine availability, but it has also positioned the UK extremely well for what will undoubtedly be a renewed world emphasis on vaccine technology and production. And it has done it super-fast.

    And how was it achieved? I find it awkward to admit this, but it's hard to avoid the conclusion that Cummings was behind it. It has all the hallmarks of his approach: by-passing the cumbersome workings of the normal Civil Service approach and instead get a small, talented, goal-focused team to super-charge the initiative. Of course it's an approach with great risks, but in this case also with an even greater pay-off.

    Of course virtually the entire media coverage last year on the Vaccine Task Force was devoted to garbage about 'cronies' and 'sleaze'. The fact that this was a spectacular success was lost in the deluge of faux-indignation.

    We might owe Cummings an apology...

    From Kate Bingham in the VTF report:

    We should recognise the flexibility and nimbleness of the civil service and the Ministers who balanced appropriate oversight and governance measures with respect to spending taxpayer money, with the making of big, difficult decisions at pace. Without this streamlining of decision making, it is unlikely that the VTF could have delivered this successful range of outcomes in such a short time.
    Absolutely 100% this.

    Some people, I won't name names, have been relentlessly attacking the government and Bingham etc for not religiously abiding by oversight rules during the pandemic. But you can't and do it right.

    Now it is coming home to roost. As was said last year when discussing this: you can have it cheap, right or fast - pick two out of three.

    This needed to be done quickly, it needed to be done right. So by series of elimination ...
    Moderation in war is imbecility Jacky Fisher
    "Give me my Detonators ... er ... Battleships"

    (TBF some of them were detonators)
    We want 8 vaccine factories and We Won't Wait!
    Battlecruisers. Edit: And the Glorious/Furious with their 18". Not to mention the Hood. Just to show what can go wrong with that approach ...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    RH1992 said:

    Nope, and I don't think economically we'll be better off outside the EU but I do agree that in situations that require fast action like vaccines we'll be a much nimbler country. If we can use this to our advantage on issues such as sanctions in the future (e.g the EU pissed about over Belarus because of Cyprus) then that's the real benefit of Brexit in my view. However, that all relies on a government willing to grab the controls and not just flail about as has happened with the other coronavirus restrictions.

    https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1354751023617875969
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,357
    Chris said:

    Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?

    Probably not.

    The problem is not the EU - though it's structure doesn't help. Nor the habit of some countries for using it as a place to promote-out-harms-way political titans such the ex-German Defence Minister. Who defeated Gavin Williamson for the Gavin Williamson Managerial Prize.

    The problem is what happens when real shortages of really important things occur.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,350

    I don't get the fuss being made about the PM's trip to Scotland. This isn't the same as his jolly off to Olympic Park on his bike. This is work. *Politically* it will be self-defeating. But as a justifiable work trip that he can't do from home? Sure.

    There's always a Nippy response to Boris. If he doesn't go to Scotland during the pandemic it would be "So where is our so-called Prime Minister in all this? Does he not care about the suffering of the Scottish people? Does he even know where Scotland is?"
    Nobody in Scotland cares a jot if we never ever see the clown. We expect to suffer under him.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Chris said:

    Am I the only lifelong pro-European who is starting to think we're better off outside the EU?

    No.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933
    Scott_xP said:

    MaxPB said:

    Because they fucked up their vaccine purchasing and are demanding our supply you complete and utter cretin.

    I asked about the UK response.

    You said I had to criticise the EU.

    The latter has no bearing on the former.

    Try again.
    If the UK vaccine response was simple enough that even the morons (as you’d put it) in No 10 could do it, what does that say about the EU’s response?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,239
    edited January 2021

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    I've been as enthusiastic at slagging off Dominic Cummings as the next man over the last year, but a thought occurred to me last night following our discussion here on the Vaccine Task Force. This initiative is, by a country mile, the very best ting this government has done, probably in fact the only thing it has done well. Not just 'well' in the normal sense of good governance, but something beyond what you can normally expect governments to achieve. Not only has it put us in an excellent position in terms of Covid vaccine availability, but it has also positioned the UK extremely well for what will undoubtedly be a renewed world emphasis on vaccine technology and production. And it has done it super-fast.

    What exactly did they do other than agree to buy lots of vaccine from every manufacturer?

    Right now that looks like a winning strategy, especially compared to track and trace where a similar approach crashed and burned...
    Apparently they've done a lot of work on building vaccine production capacity in the UK.
    - They bought the vaccines, spread across the various technologies.
    - They invested in physical plant here in the UK
    - They invested in the supply chain to the vaccine making process
    - They planned the massively expanded vaccine delivery chain and invested in doing so.

    What the EU (largely) did was to

    - Buy lots of vaccine from *some* manufacturers.
    - Some investment in production, but nowhere near what the US and UK did.
    - Some countries invested in expanded the vaccine delivery chain - such as Germany. But not as much and many did nothing.

    VTF also had a strong emphasis on international distribution and capacity building. Hence half billion for COVAX, perhaps.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001
    So the answer to my questions about the UK vaccine response has been almost entirely "WHAT ABOUT THE EU? WAAAAAAAHHHHHH"

    Thanks for playing, lads...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,001

    Worth reading the report - they did a lot more than "buy lots of vaccine from every manufacturer"

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/944308/VTF_Interim_report_-_5th_publication.pdf

    Thanks
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,933
    Scott_xP said:

    So the answer to my questions about the UK vaccine response has been almost entirely "WHAT ABOUT THE EU? WAAAAAAAHHHHHH"

    Thanks for playing, lads...

    You’ve been provided with text and links describing the response in detail. Not our fault if you don’t actually want to engage on the topic.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1354745374297227265

    The insanity continues (for clarity, I am not referencing our very own Scott)
This discussion has been closed.