Now the speculation is that Biden wants to be a two term president – politicalbetting.com

Mary_Batty said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Mary_Batty said:

Casino_Royale said:

Andy_JS said:

Taking down statues is a substitute for doing something useful.

It's a form of narcissism; the most public form of virtue-signalling there is.

It's the utter nihilism of it that gets me.

You might want to find out what "nihilism" means, because it doesn't really seem to fit with what you're trying to say.

Actually it does, as backed up by the OED, see the historical term.

I thought the issue was people over-asserting their moral principles, as in judging historic figures by their own modern standards. Nihilism seems to be the opposite criticism.

Can someone please give a coherent statement of what anti-wokism is about?

It will mean something different to different people, and in the way not everyone who is woke will consider themselves woke, some people will be anti-woke without thinking of it that way.

Cyclefree said this earlier 'on woke-ism' commenting on a Casino poist,which I think was a worthy comment:

the difference between being awake to and dealing with oppression and its consequences vs a somewhat narcissistic insistence on symbolic gesture and telling people what to think unaccompanied by any effective action to help people.

Kinabalu has argued that, even in the absence of action, better to be woke than non-woke at least, which is an interesting point, but I think the key is that anti-woke does not necessarily mean someone rejects an identification of the problems which those labelled (by themselves or opponents) as woke have raised, or even rejects all of the potential solutions.

So one can no more reject all those who an anti-woke than reject all those who are woke.

There will be people who are performatively opposed or in support of things, who get dramatically mad about some college woke drama or partake in some college woke drama, but there are also those who take a more nuanced view. I think Casino has said enough about concerns about genuine problems in these areas that his opposition to some 'woke' measures is not rooted in inherent opposition to its social aims.

SandyRentool said:

Black_Rook said:

SandyRentool said:

Clearly there is concern in government about the number of rule breakers. Presumably compliance is deteriorating.

Cracking down on flagrant idiocy needs to be stepped up.

How?

Better intelligence gathering, more visible policing, a dedicated hotline to report parties/raves/etc.

The bigger fines announced today might act as a deterrent. But not to footballers. Or 'influencers'. Coz they are special.

Can the fines not be a % of your weekly income, for example?

Andy_JS said:

Quite frankly Priti Patel has finished speaking.

Speakin'

Quincel said:

kle4 said:

CarlottaVance said:

It's annoying all the right people......

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1352306680667774977?s=20

Annoying the right people is always a stupid reason for doing something, but given it likely means nothing in respect of the relationship annoying such people is fine.

And what a defeatest - 'any prospect' is lost because of moving a bust? Get a grip, Nige.

I agree with this. My only other view is:

https://twitter.com/PipsFunFacts/status/1352311576976621569

Damn, I did fall into that trap. It gives attention to stupid things.

Gallowgate said:

SandyRentool said:

Black_Rook said:

SandyRentool said:

Clearly there is concern in government about the number of rule breakers. Presumably compliance is deteriorating.

Cracking down on flagrant idiocy needs to be stepped up.

How?

Better intelligence gathering, more visible policing, a dedicated hotline to report parties/raves/etc.

The bigger fines announced today might act as a deterrent. But not to footballers. Or 'influencers'. Coz they are special.

Can the fines not be a % of your weekly income, for example?

Finland bases some fines on income....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1759791.stm

Casino_Royale said:

kinabalu said:

Casino_Royale said:

Gallowgate said:

Casino_Royale said:

DecrepiterJohnL said:

NickPalmer said:

Theuniondivvie said:

https://twitter.com/AlastairMeeks/status/1352276165319417857?s=20

Send in the Jenricks!

The symbolism of removing statues is starting to come across as virtue-signalling and in some cases even smacks of burying rather than celebrating Black history. Instead of hiding a statue of someone who made money from slaves, why not write a big cheque that might actually help their descendants?

The City of London are simply taking action to innoculate themselves from future criticism. Once they'd started this consultation they had to identify something or that criticism would never have ended.

I actually responsed to this consultation (which wasn't acknowledged). I said it was a distraction and they should examine how more internships, mentoring and coaching programmes could be established to increase opportunities and in-career support for underrepresented ethnic minorities. I said more role models, networks and contacts were needed and these need to go out into schools and communities. I also said this shouldn't forget the poorer white working class, who are not getting much attention at the moment, but are often bottom of the educational attainment pyramid.

I'm not holding my breath on any of that.

I'm not sure what any of those things have to do with statues.

Yeah, silly me. I forgot the protests last year were really all about statues.

Not about achieving a step-change in racial equality and fairness.

But which is most important iyo - to achieve racial equality or to stamp out virtue signaling?

The latter is a distraction at best, and an obstacle at worst, to the former.

You've dodged my simple question! It was a deadly serious one. Much rides on the answer.

CarlottaVance said:

That struck me as a good analogy too:

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1352312141328621570?s=20

But would the under-40s (the target, to some extent) understand the allusion? I don't know.

Carnyx said:

CarlottaVance said:

That struck me as a good analogy too:

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1352312141328621570?s=20

But would the under-40s (the target, to some extent) understand the allusion? I don't know.

It did take me a while to understand what "a blackout" meant. I presume he means like in the Blitz?

TheScreamingEagles said:

"I was too innocent and too GAY to deserve a pardon from Trump" – Joe Exotic

Too gay? Trump went out with YMCA blasting out over the speakers!

kle4 said:

Mary_Batty said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Mary_Batty said:

Casino_Royale said:

Andy_JS said:

Taking down statues is a substitute for doing something useful.

It's a form of narcissism; the most public form of virtue-signalling there is.

It's the utter nihilism of it that gets me.

You might want to find out what "nihilism" means, because it doesn't really seem to fit with what you're trying to say.

Actually it does, as backed up by the OED, see the historical term.

I thought the issue was people over-asserting their moral principles, as in judging historic figures by their own modern standards. Nihilism seems to be the opposite criticism.

Can someone please give a coherent statement of what anti-wokism is about?

It will mean something different to different people, and in the way not everyone who is woke will consider themselves woke, some people will be anti-woke without thinking of it that way.

Cyclefree said this earlier 'on woke-ism' commenting on a Casino poist,which I think was a worthy comment:

the difference between being awake to and dealing with oppression and its consequences vs a somewhat narcissistic insistence on symbolic gesture and telling people what to think unaccompanied by any effective action to help people.

Kinabalu has argued that, even in the absence of action, better to be woke than non-woke at least, which is an interesting point, but I think the key is that anti-woke does not necessarily mean someone rejects an identification of the problems which those labelled (by themselves or opponents) as woke have raised, or even rejects all of the potential solutions.

So one can no more reject all those who an anti-woke than reject all those who are woke.

There will be people who are performatively opposed or in support of things, who get dramatically mad about some college woke drama or partake in some college woke drama, but there are also those who take a more nuanced view. I think Casino has said enough about concerns about genuine problems in these areas that his opposition to some 'woke' measures is not rooted in inherent opposition to its social aims.

Ah good, you saw my PT note on that. Thanks for the acknowledgment.

Nigelb said:

CarlottaVance said:

It's annoying all the right people......

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1352306680667774977?s=20

That is a face which begs for a slap.

There is a very long queue of people that would love to.

You know why all the journalists are obsessed by holidays... they have just come back from their Christmas ones and now looking to book their summer ones.

Gallowgate said:

CarlottaVance said:

That struck me as a good analogy too:

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1352312141328621570?s=20

It's not quite as good as my Aldi sausages Brexit analogy but it's close.

You will have to remind us.

Bernie gets the best seat at The Wigmore Hall.

https://twitter.com/wigmore_hall/status/1352313949392416771

kle4 said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Mary_Batty said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Mary_Batty said:

Casino_Royale said:

Andy_JS said:

Taking down statues is a substitute for doing something useful.

It's a form of narcissism; the most public form of virtue-signalling there is.

It's the utter nihilism of it that gets me.

You might want to find out what "nihilism" means, because it doesn't really seem to fit with what you're trying to say.

Actually it does, as backed up by the OED, see the historical term.

I thought the issue was people over-asserting their moral principles, as in judging historic figures by their own modern standards. Nihilism seems to be the opposite criticism.

Can someone please give a coherent statement of what anti-wokism is about?

If "wokism" is being someone who is awake to the issues of racism, sexism, homophobia etc., we can assume anti-wokism is being asleep to these issues, or perhaps it is just being a racist, sexist homophobe. As a slightly right of centre person I don't consider my self to be excessively "woke" , but I certainly would not want to be it's antithesis.

I suspect that is why, while not liking the term, most people objecting to what they see as counterproductive 'woke' actions, would themselves not like the term anti-woke given it woule be likely to be portrayed that way.

There isn't some binary choice between being awake to such issues and being asleep to them, there is surely a range of how 'awake' people are to them, and what actions they think should be taken in response to those issues. Reasonable people will disagree on the severity and urgency of issues and how to respond to them, without being some modern day caveman.

However, there will be such people as well of course. I think it right most of us would wish to err on the side of overdoing things than doing nothing. But would not want to be lumped in with those with no concerns at all.

It is indeed complex, though I suspect that many people who whinge and moan about "woke" are often those who might also start a sentence with " I am not racist, but...."

TheScreamingEagles said:

Does anyone have a QAnon account?

Because this is something that needs to be shared widely.

Surreal as it was to hear Donald Trump mark the end of his presidency by blasting out YMCA (famously a song about trying to hook up with young men in the showers at a Christian hostel) another of his musical choices struck us as a bit unusual too.

One of the other songs Trump chose to play as he left the White House for the final time was Gloria by Laura Branigan. Originally an Italian song, Gloria was first brought to the attention of English-speaking audiences by a British hit-maker who gave it a translated set of English lyrics... Jonathan King.

Curious to see what QAnon makes of that.

Obviously it'd be like throwing laxatives into the monkey house.

America doesn't care about the yewtreeing of furriners. You still hear Gary Glitter (Rock n Roll Pt 2) played here from time to time.

Washington Post (Style Section) - Inside the stretch limo where ‘Tiger King’ star Joe Exotic’s team waited for a pardon that never came

by Maura Judkis - It was an unusual day on the job for Jerry Debose, a Fort Worth limousine driver. He pilots a 2019 Dodge Ram “super-stretch turbo diesel” limo — “the longest limo in Dallas,” he claims. It has disco floors, indoor and outdoor seating, two sound systems and a light show. He’s used to carrying carloads of bachelorettes out to bars, prom-goers to hotel ballrooms and visiting celebrities to fancy restaurants.

His assignment on Tuesday was different.

“That was my first time taking it to a jail,” Debose says.

Debose had been hired to pick up Joseph Maldonado-Passage, the eccentric former private zoo owner better known as Joe Exotic from the Netflix documentary series “Tiger King,” at the federal prison where he is serving a 22-year sentence for violating federal wildlife laws and for his role in a murder-for-hire plot targeting his professional rival, tiger sanctuary owner Carole Baskin. . . .

Debose pulled up to the law offices of Francisco Hernandez in the super-stretch turbo diesel limo at 10:30 a.m. The mood there, he says, was jubilant. . . . .

So confident was Team Tiger of Exotic’s imminent release that it also hired a hairdresser, who was waiting in Debose’s limo to coif Exotic’s signature platinum-blonde mullet. “He doesn’t want anyone to see him until his hair is done,” Love told an ABC News affiliate.

Love even spoke of swinging by McDonald’s to get Exotic a McRib sandwich. . . .

Evening came. No call from Washington.

Rental rates for the super-stretch truck limousine at Heaven on Wheels, Debose’s employer, start at $165 an hour, not counting Debose’s driver fees (which he declined to share). . . .

He finally drove members of the legal team to the jail, but just for a brief newsconference where the lawyers declared Exotic was innocent. Finally, around 10:30 p.m., Debose was released from duty. He drove the lawyers back to their offices and dropped them off in the parking lot.

The list of 143 pardons, released after midnight, included former presidential adviser Stephen K. Bannon, Trump fundraiser Elliott Broidy and rapper Lil Wayne.

It did not include Joe Exotic . . . .

It was a fitting sideshow to the end of the Trump administration, with the elements that defined it: celebrity, unfounded confidence, appeals to showmanship and a hankering for McDonald’s.

Still, it was a great day for Debose. He was paid to eat steak and do mostly nothing. He even got on the news. The driver had been told to remain on call Wednesday, in case Exotic’s fortunes changed at the last minute.

“I was a little disappointed that we didn’t actually get a chance to pick him up yesterday,” Debose says. He says he enjoyed “Tiger King” and believes Exotic, who is not due for release until 2037, deserved that pardon.

“We all make mistakes,” the driver says.

Mary_Batty said:

Leon said:

A smart, articulate and quite persuasive essay on How America is Probably F*cked, and Biden won't be able to solve it

Part of it is the Woke Wars, but the writer also has some compelling stats on the decline of American ingenuity, innovation and worker mobility.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/20/britain-needs-biden-succeed-us-decline-might-now-unstoppable/

Even if you disagree, well worth a read

Declinism

Well, yes. America IS quite obviously in relative decline. It's GDP as a proportion of world GDP has been sliding for two or three decades.

And, just in case you missed it, the other day they had an insurrection which took over the most important building in the country, and came close to success, urged on by a maniacal idiot who somehow got 74 million votes.

If that isn't a symptom of political and societal decline, what is?

Add in all the other problems - from opioids to rising crime to gun law - and Allister Heath's prognosis looks plausible. Let's hope he is wrong, however, because a declining America means a declining West. And China supreme.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepatton/2016/02/29/u-s-role-in-global-economy-declines-nearly-50/?sh=c6546125e9e7

Nigelb said:

CarlottaVance said:

It's annoying all the right people......

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1352306680667774977?s=20

That is a face which begs for a slap.

I see three faces, which one?

rpjs said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Does anyone have a QAnon account?

Because this is something that needs to be shared widely.

Surreal as it was to hear Donald Trump mark the end of his presidency by blasting out YMCA (famously a song about trying to hook up with young men in the showers at a Christian hostel) another of his musical choices struck us as a bit unusual too.

One of the other songs Trump chose to play as he left the White House for the final time was Gloria by Laura Branigan. Originally an Italian song, Gloria was first brought to the attention of English-speaking audiences by a British hit-maker who gave it a translated set of English lyrics... Jonathan King.

Curious to see what QAnon makes of that.

Obviously it'd be like throwing laxatives into the monkey house.

America doesn't care about the yewtreeing of furriners. You still hear Gary Glitter (Rock n Roll Pt 2) played here from time to time.

The Joan Jett cover "I love Rock and Roll" version is played a lot.

Sometimes he does actually nail it in fairness. Now, no more talk of busts.
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1352214811933892613

Malmesbury said:

Gallowgate said:

SandyRentool said:

Black_Rook said:

SandyRentool said:

Clearly there is concern in government about the number of rule breakers. Presumably compliance is deteriorating.

Cracking down on flagrant idiocy needs to be stepped up.

How?

Better intelligence gathering, more visible policing, a dedicated hotline to report parties/raves/etc.

The bigger fines announced today might act as a deterrent. But not to footballers. Or 'influencers'. Coz they are special.

Can the fines not be a % of your weekly income, for example?

Finland bases some fines on income....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1759791.stm

It's classic gesture politics. It is much, much easier to announce more rules and maximum penalties than to enforce those you actually have, especially since individual situations are often messy and ambiguous, and the police usually overburdened and often sympathetic.

state_go_away said:

Personally I would hand out £800 fines for more than 15 people being smug in the same forum . Could raise a lot of money from politicalbetting recently

So long as there is no fine for people being snide as well.

IshmaelZ said:

Mary_Batty said:

Leon said:

A smart, articulate and quite persuasive essay on How America is Probably F*cked, and Biden won't be able to solve it

Part of it is the Woke Wars, but the writer also has some compelling stats on the decline of American ingenuity, innovation and worker mobility.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/20/britain-needs-biden-succeed-us-decline-might-now-unstoppable/

Even if you disagree, well worth a read

Declinism

Onewordpostism.

Adding what to the debate? For starters, what sort of -ism is this? There's things like anarchism, about how you'd like thinks to be, and things like monism or deism about how you think things are. Which have you identified here?

It's a form of handwringing, a type of moral panic about falling standards. It's been going on for millennia.

Leon said:

Mary_Batty said:

Leon said:

A smart, articulate and quite persuasive essay on How America is Probably F*cked, and Biden won't be able to solve it

Part of it is the Woke Wars, but the writer also has some compelling stats on the decline of American ingenuity, innovation and worker mobility.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/20/britain-needs-biden-succeed-us-decline-might-now-unstoppable/

Even if you disagree, well worth a read

Declinism

Well, yes. America IS quite obviously in relative decline. It's GDP as a proportion of world GDP has been sliding for two or three decades.

And, just in case you missed it, the other day they had an insurrection which took over the most important building in the country, and came close to success, urged on by a maniacal idiot who somehow got 74 million votes.

If that isn't a symptom of political and societal decline, what is?

Add in all the other problems - from opioids to rising crime to gun law - and Allister Heath's prognosis looks plausible. Let's hope he is wrong, however, because a declining America means a declining West. And China supreme.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepatton/2016/02/29/u-s-role-in-global-economy-declines-nearly-50/?sh=c6546125e9e7

Did you happen to spend some quality time in the great state of Louisiana, pre-COVID?

IF so, might explain (somewhat) your take on America.

Because "declinism" has been a Louisiana cottage industry since (at least) 1803.

Should add that in the Pelican State, the decline is NOT just cultural. It's also - thanks to massive subsidence of wetlands - also geographical.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Mary_Batty said:

Casino_Royale said:

Andy_JS said:

Taking down statues is a substitute for doing something useful.

It's a form of narcissism; the most public form of virtue-signalling there is.

It's the utter nihilism of it that gets me.

You might want to find out what "nihilism" means, because it doesn't really seem to fit with what you're trying to say.

Actually it does, as backed up by the OED, see the historical term.

It can mean many things to many people..

Nihilists For Independence
@Nihilists4Indy
God and the Union are both deid and we killt them. Listen to the @AngryScotland
podcast. Or don't. It doesn't matter. Nothing matters.

NickPalmer said:

I was as critical as anyone of the confusing messaging and the ridiculous false sentimentality in the run-up to Christmas, which probably actually killed people. But although at 71 I suppose I'm in line to get a vaccination by Feb 15, really I'm not inclined to grumble if it's Feb 20 or 28.

It's right to urge all possible speed on the programme, but we should recognise that it's a big operation and hitches will occur - I'm not minded to give either the Government or Pfizer a hard time over that. People should focus on the serious issues, such as what gap between first and second jabs is actually safe.

The big problem at the moment is that, having published a clear priority order for the vaccinations, the Government is failing, or at least giving the strong impression of failing, to ensure that it is stuck to through making a hash of distributing the doses evenly.

As we know from arguments over NHS care dating back decades, one of the things that people most detest are postcode lotteries. When you get stories coming out of generally fit seventy year olds in some parts of the country getting lanced, when jabbing of doddery old ducks in care homes has barely started in others, then this is bound to generate an avalanche of complaints.

Luckyguy1983 said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Also off-topic (apologies) is this wonderful treat from close by my primary school in Rochdale. A lesson of why you shouldn't build houses on a flood plain...
https://twitter.com/HelenGradwell/status/1352196412113612800

Nothing wrong with houses being built there - it's the refusal to dredge the rivers based on EU regulations and enforced by the environment agency that is the issue. Now we've left the EU, a this is something that can be re-assessed.

The state of this...

Foxy said:

rpjs said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Does anyone have a QAnon account?

Because this is something that needs to be shared widely.

Surreal as it was to hear Donald Trump mark the end of his presidency by blasting out YMCA (famously a song about trying to hook up with young men in the showers at a Christian hostel) another of his musical choices struck us as a bit unusual too.

One of the other songs Trump chose to play as he left the White House for the final time was Gloria by Laura Branigan. Originally an Italian song, Gloria was first brought to the attention of English-speaking audiences by a British hit-maker who gave it a translated set of English lyrics... Jonathan King.

Curious to see what QAnon makes of that.

Obviously it'd be like throwing laxatives into the monkey house.

America doesn't care about the yewtreeing of furriners. You still hear Gary Glitter (Rock n Roll Pt 2) played here from time to time.

The Joan Jett cover "I love Rock and Roll" version is played a lot.

It is similar, but it is a different song from the Gary Glitter one. The original of the Joan Jett cover was by the Arrows.

Cicero said:

Mary_Batty said:

Leon said:

A smart, articulate and quite persuasive essay on How America is Probably F*cked, and Biden won't be able to solve it

Part of it is the Woke Wars, but the writer also has some compelling stats on the decline of American ingenuity, innovation and worker mobility.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/20/britain-needs-biden-succeed-us-decline-might-now-unstoppable/

Even if you disagree, well worth a read

Declinism

If you want proper declinism, then the current UK is a much stronger example.

Much Agriculture and all Fisheries is now on the brink of collapse. Manufacturing is finally going to the wall and over 100,000 small businesses are crippled. Logistics rates to and from the UK are up over 7x what they were 18 months ago. Over 20% of capital formerly controlled by the City of London has already left at a time when Fintech is rendering vast numbers of financial products, and the jobs they sustain, obsolete.

Permacrisis is on its way, But its OK because a government that still hands out Orders of the British Empire and peerages to scions of the KGB- but clearly had not read the critical economic deal they signed with Brussels with hours to spare- is showing the EU it means business by failing to do what 132 other countries do and recognize EU diplomats as diplomats, because that´ll show em.

Baby Trump is still set to be in power for another 4 years. I expect by the time his time is up that Westminster will be being besieged by the mob too.

We're still the 5th largest economy. How people can describe that as declinism baffles me.

Cicero said:

Mary_Batty said:

Leon said:

A smart, articulate and quite persuasive essay on How America is Probably F*cked, and Biden won't be able to solve it

Part of it is the Woke Wars, but the writer also has some compelling stats on the decline of American ingenuity, innovation and worker mobility.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/20/britain-needs-biden-succeed-us-decline-might-now-unstoppable/

Even if you disagree, well worth a read

Declinism

If you want proper declinism, then the current UK is a much stronger example.

Much Agriculture and all Fisheries is now on the brink of collapse. Manufacturing is finally going to the wall and over 100,000 small businesses are crippled. Logistics rates to and from the UK are up over 7x what they were 18 months ago. Over 20% of capital formerly controlled by the City of London has already left at a time when Fintech is rendering vast numbers of financial products, and the jobs they sustain, obsolete.

Permacrisis is on its way, But its OK because a government that still hands out Orders of the British Empire and peerages to scions of the KGB- but clearly had not read the critical economic deal they signed with Brussels with hours to spare- is showing the EU it means business by failing to do what 132 other countries do and recognize EU diplomats as diplomats, because that´ll show em.

Baby Trump is still set to be in power for another 4 years. I expect by the time his time is up that Westminster will be being besieged by the mob too.

I thought declinism meant a theatrically negative, overly-pessimistic perspective on a society's future, Fings Aint Wot They Used to Be and all that.

In which case, maybe yours is a perfect example. Britain is definitely in a bit of a pickle, but I do not believe a mob of people in warpaint and Viking helmets, firmly of the belief that millions of children are being secretly abused by Yvette Cooper in a network of underground labyrinths, will be successfully storming Westminster in 2024.

Here's an interesting story not being flagged up.

Republicans in Arizona are going to get the forensic audit of Presidential ballots they demanded in the key Maricopa County of the state after election officials dropped a court case trying to stop them.

When the audit finds there was no significant election fraud, that may actually go a long way to healing divisions in the country and discrediting Trump's claims.

kle4 said:

Mary_Batty said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Mary_Batty said:

Casino_Royale said:

Andy_JS said:

Taking down statues is a substitute for doing something useful.

It's a form of narcissism; the most public form of virtue-signalling there is.

It's the utter nihilism of it that gets me.

You might want to find out what "nihilism" means, because it doesn't really seem to fit with what you're trying to say.

Actually it does, as backed up by the OED, see the historical term.

I thought the issue was people over-asserting their moral principles, as in judging historic figures by their own modern standards. Nihilism seems to be the opposite criticism.

Can someone please give a coherent statement of what anti-wokism is about?

It will mean something different to different people, and in the way not everyone who is woke will consider themselves woke, some people will be anti-woke without thinking of it that way.

Cyclefree said this earlier 'on woke-ism' commenting on a Casino poist,which I think was a worthy comment:

the difference between being awake to and dealing with oppression and its consequences vs a somewhat narcissistic insistence on symbolic gesture and telling people what to think unaccompanied by any effective action to help people.

Kinabalu has argued that, even in the absence of action, better to be woke than non-woke at least, which is an interesting point, but I think the key is that anti-woke does not necessarily mean someone rejects an identification of the problems which those labelled (by themselves or opponents) as woke have raised, or even rejects all of the potential solutions.

So one can no more reject all those who an anti-woke than reject all those who are woke.

There will be people who are performatively opposed or in support of things, who get dramatically mad about some college woke drama or partake in some college woke drama, but there are also those who take a more nuanced view. I think Casino has said enough about concerns about genuine problems in these areas that his opposition to some 'woke' measures is not rooted in inherent opposition to its social aims.

Thanks.

https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1352323311926185989?s=19

Black_Rook said:

Leon said:

NickPalmer said:

I was as critical as anyone of the confusing messaging and the ridiculous false sentimentality in the run-up to Christmas, which probably actually killed people. But although at 71 I suppose I'm in line to get a vaccination by Feb 15, really I'm not inclined to grumble if it's Feb 20 or 28.

It's right to urge all possible speed on the programme, but we should recognise that it's a big operation and hitches will occur - I'm not minded to give either the Government or Pfizer a hard time over that. People should focus on the serious issues, such as what gap between first and second jabs is actually safe.

It occurred to me today - perhaps rather belatedly - that vaccinations might well become compulsory. Like wearing a seatbelt in a car, or a crash helmet on a motorbike, or many other things that were once obviously optional, and no one ever thought they might become mandatory.

I don't know about vaccinations, but I bet we're stuck with masks forever. Whether it'll be all year or just for the six months between October and March each year for the rest of time I'm not really sure, but you can certainly imagine the justification for the latter already. Stop Flu, Protect the NHS, Save Lives...

This time next year almost no-one will be wearing a mask. Prediction.

All The President's Men is on at 9PM tonight on BBC4.

Richard_Nabavi said:

kamski said:

Just to be clear, I'm not defending the EU, but if someone said to me without warning "we're reducing your delivery of this time critical stuff you ordered months ago by 50% this week, but it's your fault because you made an additional order (which we agreed to) 3 months ago", I would also be quite annoyed.

It rather depends on what Pfizer told the EU when they were negotiating that additional order.

If it is the case the this additional order has caused this delay, then it could be a massive error by the EU, because there's a pretty good chance that by the time Pfizer have enough capacity to begin making up for the lost ground, other vaccines may well be approved and in mass production, and so the extra Pfizer capacity will be less crucial in public-health terms than the ones being delayed now. In the meantime, lives will have been lost.

I haven't heard any suggestion that Pfizer told anyone that ordering more would delay existing orders, I would have thought they should say that if it's the case given the strength of criticism they are getting for these apparently unexpected reductions

Cicero said:

Mary_Batty said:

Leon said:

A smart, articulate and quite persuasive essay on How America is Probably F*cked, and Biden won't be able to solve it

Part of it is the Woke Wars, but the writer also has some compelling stats on the decline of American ingenuity, innovation and worker mobility.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/20/britain-needs-biden-succeed-us-decline-might-now-unstoppable/

Even if you disagree, well worth a read

Declinism

If you want proper declinism, then the current UK is a much stronger example.

Much Agriculture and all Fisheries is now on the brink of collapse. Manufacturing is finally going to the wall and over 100,000 small businesses are crippled. Logistics rates to and from the UK are up over 7x what they were 18 months ago. Over 20% of capital formerly controlled by the City of London has already left at a time when Fintech is rendering vast numbers of financial products, and the jobs they sustain, obsolete.

Permacrisis is on its way, But its OK because a government that still hands out Orders of the British Empire and peerages to scions of the KGB- but clearly had not read the critical economic deal they signed with Brussels with hours to spare- is showing the EU it means business by failing to do what 132 other countries do and recognize EU diplomats as diplomats, because that´ll show em.

Baby Trump is still set to be in power for another 4 years. I expect by the time his time is up that Westminster will be being besieged by the mob too.

I think this most accurately describes Britain's prospects right now:

Andy_JS said:

Cicero said:

Mary_Batty said:

Leon said:

A smart, articulate and quite persuasive essay on How America is Probably F*cked, and Biden won't be able to solve it

Part of it is the Woke Wars, but the writer also has some compelling stats on the decline of American ingenuity, innovation and worker mobility.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/20/britain-needs-biden-succeed-us-decline-might-now-unstoppable/

Even if you disagree, well worth a read

Declinism

If you want proper declinism, then the current UK is a much stronger example.

Much Agriculture and all Fisheries is now on the brink of collapse. Manufacturing is finally going to the wall and over 100,000 small businesses are crippled. Logistics rates to and from the UK are up over 7x what they were 18 months ago. Over 20% of capital formerly controlled by the City of London has already left at a time when Fintech is rendering vast numbers of financial products, and the jobs they sustain, obsolete.

Permacrisis is on its way, But its OK because a government that still hands out Orders of the British Empire and peerages to scions of the KGB- but clearly had not read the critical economic deal they signed with Brussels with hours to spare- is showing the EU it means business by failing to do what 132 other countries do and recognize EU diplomats as diplomats, because that´ll show em.

Baby Trump is still set to be in power for another 4 years. I expect by the time his time is up that Westminster will be being besieged by the mob too.

We're still the 5th largest economy. How people can describe that as declinism baffles me.

Perhaps we would be 4th in different hands.

Cicero said:

Mary_Batty said:

Leon said:

A smart, articulate and quite persuasive essay on How America is Probably F*cked, and Biden won't be able to solve it

Part of it is the Woke Wars, but the writer also has some compelling stats on the decline of American ingenuity, innovation and worker mobility.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/20/britain-needs-biden-succeed-us-decline-might-now-unstoppable/

Even if you disagree, well worth a read

Declinism

If you want proper declinism, then the current UK is a much stronger example.

Much Agriculture and all Fisheries is now on the brink of collapse. Manufacturing is finally going to the wall and over 100,000 small businesses are crippled. Logistics rates to and from the UK are up over 7x what they were 18 months ago. Over 20% of capital formerly controlled by the City of London has already left at a time when Fintech is rendering vast numbers of financial products, and the jobs they sustain, obsolete.

Permacrisis is on its way, But its OK because a government that still hands out Orders of the British Empire and peerages to scions of the KGB- but clearly had not read the critical economic deal they signed with Brussels with hours to spare- is showing the EU it means business by failing to do what 132 other countries do and recognize EU diplomats as diplomats, because that´ll show em.

Baby Trump is still set to be in power for another 4 years. I expect by the time his time is up that Westminster will be being besieged by the mob too.

I've always thought declinism is specifically about having an overly nostalgic view of the goodness of the past and therefore the negative prospects of the future.

That is, I've always considered it a pejorative term based on pessimisn and rose coloured assessments of the past. In contrast to simply believing the short, medium or long term is likely to see problems (which may well be accurate), declinism being the overindulgence of pessimism as some morbid fascination with assuming things to be their worst.

Andy_JS said:

Cicero said:

Mary_Batty said:

Leon said:

A smart, articulate and quite persuasive essay on How America is Probably F*cked, and Biden won't be able to solve it

Part of it is the Woke Wars, but the writer also has some compelling stats on the decline of American ingenuity, innovation and worker mobility.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/20/britain-needs-biden-succeed-us-decline-might-now-unstoppable/

Even if you disagree, well worth a read

Declinism

If you want proper declinism, then the current UK is a much stronger example.

Much Agriculture and all Fisheries is now on the brink of collapse. Manufacturing is finally going to the wall and over 100,000 small businesses are crippled. Logistics rates to and from the UK are up over 7x what they were 18 months ago. Over 20% of capital formerly controlled by the City of London has already left at a time when Fintech is rendering vast numbers of financial products, and the jobs they sustain, obsolete.

Permacrisis is on its way, But its OK because a government that still hands out Orders of the British Empire and peerages to scions of the KGB- but clearly had not read the critical economic deal they signed with Brussels with hours to spare- is showing the EU it means business by failing to do what 132 other countries do and recognize EU diplomats as diplomats, because that´ll show em.

Baby Trump is still set to be in power for another 4 years. I expect by the time his time is up that Westminster will be being besieged by the mob too.

We're still the 5th largest economy. How people can describe that as declinism baffles me.

In PPP terms, the IMF currently has the top 10 economies in this order:

China
USA
India
Japan
Germany
Russia
Indonesia
Brazil
UK
France

Fishing said:

Malmesbury said:

Gallowgate said:

SandyRentool said:

Black_Rook said:

SandyRentool said:

Clearly there is concern in government about the number of rule breakers. Presumably compliance is deteriorating.

Cracking down on flagrant idiocy needs to be stepped up.

How?

Better intelligence gathering, more visible policing, a dedicated hotline to report parties/raves/etc.

The bigger fines announced today might act as a deterrent. But not to footballers. Or 'influencers'. Coz they are special.

Can the fines not be a % of your weekly income, for example?

Finland bases some fines on income....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1759791.stm

It's classic gesture politics. It is much, much easier to announce more rules and maximum penalties than to enforce those you actually have, especially since individual situations are often messy and ambiguous, and the police usually overburdened and often sympathetic.

I thought we'd tried income-based fines for traffic offences.

Luckyguy1983 said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Mary_Batty said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Mary_Batty said:

Casino_Royale said:

Andy_JS said:

Taking down statues is a substitute for doing something useful.

It's a form of narcissism; the most public form of virtue-signalling there is.

It's the utter nihilism of it that gets me.

You might want to find out what "nihilism" means, because it doesn't really seem to fit with what you're trying to say.

Actually it does, as backed up by the OED, see the historical term.

I thought the issue was people over-asserting their moral principles, as in judging historic figures by their own modern standards. Nihilism seems to be the opposite criticism.

Can someone please give a coherent statement of what anti-wokism is about?

If "wokism" is being someone who is awake to the issues of racism, sexism, homophobia etc., we can assume anti-wokism is being asleep to these issues, or perhaps it is just being a racist, sexist homophobe. As a slightly right of centre person I don't consider my self to be excessively "woke" , but I certainly would not want to be it's antithesis.

The terms 'awake' and 'asleep' are value judgements. 'Concerned' and 'not concerned' would be more accurate.

That's a good point. You can be acutely aware of racial injustice but not give a shit.

BluestBlue said:

Leon said:

Andy_JS said:

Cicero said:

Mary_Batty said:

Leon said:

A smart, articulate and quite persuasive essay on How America is Probably F*cked, and Biden won't be able to solve it

Part of it is the Woke Wars, but the writer also has some compelling stats on the decline of American ingenuity, innovation and worker mobility.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/20/britain-needs-biden-succeed-us-decline-might-now-unstoppable/

Even if you disagree, well worth a read

Declinism

If you want proper declinism, then the current UK is a much stronger example.

Much Agriculture and all Fisheries is now on the brink of collapse. Manufacturing is finally going to the wall and over 100,000 small businesses are crippled. Logistics rates to and from the UK are up over 7x what they were 18 months ago. Over 20% of capital formerly controlled by the City of London has already left at a time when Fintech is rendering vast numbers of financial products, and the jobs they sustain, obsolete.

Permacrisis is on its way, But its OK because a government that still hands out Orders of the British Empire and peerages to scions of the KGB- but clearly had not read the critical economic deal they signed with Brussels with hours to spare- is showing the EU it means business by failing to do what 132 other countries do and recognize EU diplomats as diplomats, because that´ll show em.

Baby Trump is still set to be in power for another 4 years. I expect by the time his time is up that Westminster will be being besieged by the mob too.

We're still the 5th largest economy. How people can describe that as declinism baffles me.

Everyone on PB is using the word "declinism" wrongly, apart from me. Clear evidence that the site is in terrible and unstoppable decline.

Declinism isn't what it used to be.

You mean, people don't get their Latin grammar right any more?

contrarian said:

Here's an interesting story not being flagged up.

Republicans in Arizona are going to get the forensic audit of Presidential ballots they demanded in the key Maricopa County of the state after election officials dropped a court case trying to stop them.

When the audit finds there was no significant election fraud, that may actually go a long way to healing divisions in the country and discrediting Trump's claims.

Let us hope so.

Did you do what I suggested and start prepping Trumpian spaces for some healing?

Leon said:

Mary_Batty said:

Leon said:

A smart, articulate and quite persuasive essay on How America is Probably F*cked, and Biden won't be able to solve it

Part of it is the Woke Wars, but the writer also has some compelling stats on the decline of American ingenuity, innovation and worker mobility.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/20/britain-needs-biden-succeed-us-decline-might-now-unstoppable/

Even if you disagree, well worth a read

Declinism

Well, yes. America IS quite obviously in relative decline. It's GDP as a proportion of world GDP has been sliding for two or three decades.

And, just in case you missed it, the other day they had an insurrection which took over the most important building in the country, and came close to success, urged on by a maniacal idiot who somehow got 74 million votes.

If that isn't a symptom of political and societal decline, what is?

Add in all the other problems - from opioids to rising crime to gun law - and Allister Heath's prognosis looks plausible. Let's hope he is wrong, however, because a declining America means a declining West. And China supreme.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepatton/2016/02/29/u-s-role-in-global-economy-declines-nearly-50/?sh=c6546125e9e7

It is indeed a relative decline, but that is because the US achieved full luxury capitalism first. Once everyone has all mod-cons, a car in every garage, etc any further improvements are incremental, so as the rest of the world catches up, yes the US is no longer as fully out-in-front as it once was. Yes, there are lots more problems in the US: the hollowing-out of the middle class; decaying infrastructure; a structural issue of just how do we maintain employment if there are lower-cost alternatives elsewhere. The US is not alone facing these issues though: even China is losing manufacturing jobs to lower-cost economies such as Vietnam, and everywhere will have to deal with the inexorable rise of automation into more and more spheres.

Politico.com - How lawmakers trapped in the House stood their ground
A handful of House members who were in the chamber recount how they fought off rioters during the deadly Jan. 6 attacks.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/21/house-capitol-riots-lawmakers-stood-their-ground-460965

by Olivia Beavers - It was shortly after rioters had breached the Capitol on Jan. 6 and the scene inside the building was chaotic.

Authorities deployed tear gas in Statuary Hall, rioters were heading to the House chamber, members were being told to put on gas masks, and the Capitol Police were clearly outnumbered.

Rep. Markwayne Mullin (R-Okla.), one of the dozens of lawmakers inside the House chamber, first leapt into action, helping an officer barricade the door on the House floor that leads to Statuary Hall. Texas freshman Reps. Troy Nehls, Tony Gonzales [R-Ohio], Pat Fallon [R-Texas] and Ronny Jackson [R-Texas], a Navy veteran, also soon joined Mullin in preparing to defend the chamber. . . .

Rep. Jason Crow (D-Colo.), a former Army Ranger who served three tours in Afghanistan and Iraq, had been watching the election certification debate from the House gallery along with other House members, staffers and a host of reporters.

Mullin said he called on Crow, a friend of his, to help evacuate the rest of the people out of the gallery. . . . .

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

Politico.com - How lawmakers trapped in the House stood their ground
A handful of House members who were in the chamber recount how they fought off rioters during the deadly Jan. 6 attacks.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/21/house-capitol-riots-lawmakers-stood-their-ground-460965

by Olivia Beavers - It was shortly after rioters had breached the Capitol on Jan. 6 and the scene inside the building was chaotic.

Authorities deployed tear gas in Statuary Hall, rioters were heading to the House chamber, members were being told to put on gas masks, and the Capitol Police were clearly outnumbered.

Rep. Markwayne Mullin (R-Okla.), one of the dozens of lawmakers inside the House chamber, first leapt into action, helping an officer barricade the door on the House floor that leads to Statuary Hall. Texas freshman Reps. Troy Nehls, Tony Gonzales [R-Ohio], Pat Fallon [R-Texas] and Ronny Jackson [R-Texas], a Navy veteran, also soon joined Mullin in preparing to defend the chamber. . . .

Rep. Jason Crow (D-Colo.), a former Army Ranger who served three tours in Afghanistan and Iraq, had been watching the election certification debate from the House gallery along with other House members, staffers and a host of reporters.

Mullin said he called on Crow, a friend of his, to help evacuate the rest of the people out of the gallery. . . . .

Democrat and Republican lawmakers being friends? Unnatural in this modern age, I hope someone breaks them up.

rpjs said:

Leon said:

Mary_Batty said:

Leon said:

A smart, articulate and quite persuasive essay on How America is Probably F*cked, and Biden won't be able to solve it

Part of it is the Woke Wars, but the writer also has some compelling stats on the decline of American ingenuity, innovation and worker mobility.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/20/britain-needs-biden-succeed-us-decline-might-now-unstoppable/

Even if you disagree, well worth a read

Declinism

Well, yes. America IS quite obviously in relative decline. It's GDP as a proportion of world GDP has been sliding for two or three decades.

And, just in case you missed it, the other day they had an insurrection which took over the most important building in the country, and came close to success, urged on by a maniacal idiot who somehow got 74 million votes.

If that isn't a symptom of political and societal decline, what is?

Add in all the other problems - from opioids to rising crime to gun law - and Allister Heath's prognosis looks plausible. Let's hope he is wrong, however, because a declining America means a declining West. And China supreme.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepatton/2016/02/29/u-s-role-in-global-economy-declines-nearly-50/?sh=c6546125e9e7

It is indeed a relative decline, but that is because the US achieved full luxury capitalism first. Once everyone has all mod-cons, a car in every garage, etc any further improvements are incremental, so as the rest of the world catches up, yes the US is no longer as fully out-in-front as it once was. Yes, there are lots more problems in the US: the hollowing-out of the middle class; decaying infrastructure; a structural issue of just how do we maintain employment if there are lower-cost alternatives elsewhere. The US is not alone facing these issues though: even China is losing manufacturing jobs to lower-cost economies such as Vietnam, and everywhere will have to deal with the inexorable rise of automation into more and more spheres.

Acrually, automation may just save us from the grievous problems of ageing, dwindling populations.

Italy's population is quickly shrinking. Ditto Korea. Japan. And so on.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-italy-population/italy-faces-existential-threat-over-low-birthrate-president-idUSKBN2052E1

https://www.npr.org/2018/12/21/679103541/japans-population-is-in-rapid-decline?t=1611255323938

https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/explained-why-south-koreas-falling-population-has-its-govt-worried-7132507/#:~:text=According to a Guardian report,above 64 years of age.