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Back to British politics for a change and a possible threat to Boris – politicalbetting.com

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  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,873

    FF43 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I guess that's it chaps, Brexit's over! Well done, Scott - what will you be wearing on Reunification Day next week?
    This is the point. The bridges are burnt; the boats are burnt. There is no way back. So the fishermen, for example, are utterly screwed. There is nothing the Johnson government can do for them, beyond tossing them some cash, and they don't seem to be too much up for that.
    Funny how you lot suddenly care about fishermen.
    Fewer fishermen than TopShop workers wasn't it :wink:
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,988
    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Trump better have pardons for his family ready next Wednesday and ensure they are close by so they can be handed to them in person there and then.
    Why would he leave it til then?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,499
    HYUFD said:

    any referendum without UK government and Westminster consent would be illegal

    That is not true

    And you know it
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,444

    Scott_xP said:
    45% are saying positive or no difference in that poll

    I bet Boris would take that
    Of course he would! It has made him PM, a job far above his talents should have allowed.

    Was it worth tearing apart the country for 5 years, the loss of jobs, rights and respect for the rule of law, the likely breakup of the union and already the separation of NI's economy from GBs?

    Or even for the Tory party, the end of the party of pro business, from the party of reducing red tape to finding extra red tape everywhere, the shame of replacing the likes of Hammond, Gauke, Stewart and Clarke with Raab, Williamson and Rees Mogg?
    Yes.

    Though hopefully the latter 3 should be replaced, they are weak links.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 8,429

    Scott_xP said:
    45% are saying positive or no difference in that poll

    I bet Boris would take that
    Of course he would! It has made him PM, a job far above his talents should have allowed.

    Was it worth tearing apart the country for 5 years, the loss of jobs, rights and respect for the rule of law, the likely breakup of the union and already the separation of NI's economy from GBs?

    Or even for the Tory party, the end of the party of pro business, from the party of reducing red tape to finding extra red tape everywhere, the shame of replacing the likes of Hammond, Gauke, Stewart and Clarke with Raab, Williamson and Rees Mogg?
    Yes.

    Though hopefully the latter 3 should be replaced, they are weak links.
    You really are a sad deluded fool
  • Scott_xP said:
    45% are saying positive or no difference in that poll

    I bet Boris would take that
    Of course he would! It has made him PM, a job far above his talents should have allowed.

    Was it worth tearing apart the country for 5 years, the loss of jobs, rights and respect for the rule of law, the likely breakup of the union and already the separation of NI's economy from GBs?

    Or even for the Tory party, the end of the party of pro business, from the party of reducing red tape to finding extra red tape everywhere, the shame of replacing the likes of Hammond, Gauke, Stewart and Clarke with Raab, Williamson and Rees Mogg?
    The answer to your question is what happens next and over the 3 years to GE 2024

    And I am not making any predictions as it could go either way

    But what is certain, the vaccination decision is a big first win for Brexit
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,783

    FF43 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I guess that's it chaps, Brexit's over! Well done, Scott - what will you be wearing on Reunification Day next week?
    This is the point. The bridges are burnt; the boats are burnt. There is no way back. So the fishermen, for example, are utterly screwed. There is nothing the Johnson government can do for them, beyond tossing them some cash, and they don't seem to be too much up for that.
    Funny how you lot suddenly care about fishermen.
    Because, what, nobody would *really* care about other peoples' businesses being destroyed? I don't know whether it is you or HYUFD strengthens my resolve never ever to vote Conservative again more. We are well beyond the "see the back of Johnson and think again" stage.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 733
    edited January 14
    Thread Header. The threat to Boris is there but they been banging about this plan to move out of 'lockdown' multiple times and there he is, fairly secure, so you have to wonder if its hot air from Baker.

    According to Arlene Foster NI has now got the R rate down below 1. It was reportedly 1.8 when the when they announced the tight restrictions that came into effect on Boxing Day (the term lockdown makes it sound like an armed siege).

    So basically cut in half in 2 and a bit weeks. Seems rather good that. Hospital admissions are expected to peak the next week to 10 days so I suspect we will bear this without having to dump the dead bodies out on the street.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,509
    edited January 14
    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    any referendum without UK government and Westminster consent would be illegal

    That is not true

    And you know it
    No it is true.

    Our UK constitution is based on the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament, even Holyrood is merely a creation of Westminster, Westminster remains supreme.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 12,887
    edited January 14

    FF43 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I guess that's it chaps, Brexit's over! Well done, Scott - what will you be wearing on Reunification Day next week?
    This is the point. The bridges are burnt; the boats are burnt. There is no way back. So the fishermen, for example, are utterly screwed. There is nothing the Johnson government can do for them, beyond tossing them some cash, and they don't seem to be too much up for that.
    Funny how you lot suddenly care about fishermen.
    Despite your snide comment, I do actually care for them. Losing your livelihood is devastating. The fact some fishermen were part-actors in their own destruction doesn't make that destruction any less tragic. It's worse than I was expecting and I never thought much of Brexit. These guys bought into the dream. Being taken for fools will make them feel even worse.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,733
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Mortimer said:

    The Boris paradox for the Sturge is every day he is PM, support for Indy remains, but she won't get an IndyRef whilst he remains.

    BoZo can't stop her holding a referendum with the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.
    Of course he can, any referendum without UK government and Westminster consent would be illegal and irrelevant as Madrid proved when it ignored the illegal referendum held by the Catalan government
    I am not sure you are correct.

    Don't forget the Brexit vote was advisory rather than binding.

    I would imagine Nippy can do pretty much as she likes regarding plebiscite arrangements. Where she is hamstrung is that she can't legally declare UDI on the result.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,541
    Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort is facing court fines for a maskless New Year’s Eve party held at the Florida club in contravention of Covid-19 regulations.

    The South Florida Sun-Sentinel reported Thursday that county officials issued “a stern warning” to the Palm Beach resort over the party and potential superspreader event, which Trump himself skipped out on when he cut short his winter holiday and returned to the White House to concentrate on efforts to overturn his election defeat.

    “There was a breakdown in enforcement of the mask orders that led to almost the entire room of guests being without masks during the later evening activities,” Palm Beach administrators Todd Bonlarron and Patrick Rutter wrote to Mar-a-Lago managing director Bernd Lembcke.
  • BBC News - Marcus Rashford calls on PM for wider free school meal review
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55670096

    I can see this ending in free school meals for all during term time and holidays.

    I would have no problem with that but in all this his football is suffering and he was taken off v Burnley

    Whoscored have him as 12th best player in the Premier league this year, thats about his level (he should improve a bit further at his age), he is not underperforming.
    As a lifetime Man Utd supporter and season ticket holder for years until tempus fugit I can say he is a remarkable talent but this last few weeks has seen him underperforming, though I expect it is only a blip as he has real talent and is a great credit to himself and the club
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,988

    Scott_xP said:
    45% are saying positive or no difference in that poll

    I bet Boris would take that
    Of course he would! It has made him PM, a job far above his talents should have allowed.

    Was it worth tearing apart the country for 5 years, the loss of jobs, rights and respect for the rule of law, the likely breakup of the union and already the separation of NI's economy from GBs?

    Or even for the Tory party, the end of the party of pro business, from the party of reducing red tape to finding extra red tape everywhere, the shame of replacing the likes of Hammond, Gauke, Stewart and Clarke with Raab, Williamson and Rees Mogg?
    Yes.

    Though hopefully the latter 3 should be replaced, they are weak links.
    We know it is worth it for you. It is hard to say it is worth it to the country given negative matches positive plus unchanged combined and we could have spent the last five years improving our economy, environment and infrastructure instead of arguing amongst ourselves.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,444
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    any referendum without UK government and Westminster consent would be illegal

    That is not true

    And you know it
    No it is true.

    Our constitution is based on the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament, even Holyrood is merely a creation of Westminster, Westminster remains supreme.
    Our constitution is fungible and based on respect of the people who elect our Parliaments.

    We are a democracy not a Franco dictatorship.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,239

    FF43 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I guess that's it chaps, Brexit's over! Well done, Scott - what will you be wearing on Reunification Day next week?
    This is the point. The bridges are burnt; the boats are burnt. There is no way back. So the fishermen, for example, are utterly screwed. There is nothing the Johnson government can do for them, beyond tossing them some cash, and they don't seem to be too much up for that.
    Funny how you lot suddenly care about fishermen.
    Yeah, well I've been warning of the threat to the seafood guys on here for a while. I also thought there would be probs for the demersal and pelagic boys as well but I didn't think BJ and his merry men would fuck it up quite so comprehensively.

    From 'you lot' I think I prefer the 'tough luck, suck it up' argument over the 'these people just don't realise what a GREEEAAAT deal they have' one, at least it's cutting out the bullshit.
  • HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Mortimer said:

    The Boris paradox for the Sturge is every day he is PM, support for Indy remains, but she won't get an IndyRef whilst he remains.

    BoZo can't stop her holding a referendum with the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.
    Of course he can, any referendum without UK government and Westminster consent would be illegal and irrelevant as Madrid proved when it ignored the illegal referendum held by the Catalan government
    We are not often on the same page but of course you are right

    Any idea UDI is legal is nonsense and importantly Nicola knows that
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,893

    Rather concerning that the rate of vaccinating in the best performing EU countries is either falling (Denmark) or flattening (Italy):

    https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

    Suggests supply constraints.

    The Club Med Big Three are doing absolutely terribly. Really need Italy, France, Spain to up their game.
    Why has there been no update on the UK vacination figures today?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,239

    Planning a visit to the local fish shop / smokehouse / farm shop tomorrow. Their main business was selling fresh shellfish to Italy. Should I be looking for some bargains?

    Just avoid the 'been on a round trip to Dover' seconds tray.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,733
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    any referendum without UK government and Westminster consent would be illegal

    That is not true

    And you know it
    No it is true.

    Our UK constitution is based on the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament, even Holyrood is merely a creation of Westminster, Westminster remains supreme.
    Can you imagine the uproar North of the Border when an Independent, Independence Referendum is called and the Westminster Government ignore it. Support for Independence will go through the roof!

    Your boy might have saved the world from Covid, but he will have lost the Union.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,873

    Scott_xP said:
    45% are saying positive or no difference in that poll

    I bet Boris would take that
    Of course he would! It has made him PM, a job far above his talents should have allowed.

    Was it worth tearing apart the country for 5 years, the loss of jobs, rights and respect for the rule of law, the likely breakup of the union and already the separation of NI's economy from GBs?

    Or even for the Tory party, the end of the party of pro business, from the party of reducing red tape to finding extra red tape everywhere, the shame of replacing the likes of Hammond, Gauke, Stewart and Clarke with Raab, Williamson and Rees Mogg?
    Yes.

    Though hopefully the latter 3 should be replaced, they are weak links.
    We know it is worth it for you. It is hard to say it is worth it to the country given negative matches positive plus unchanged combined and we could have spent the last five years improving our economy, environment and infrastructure instead of arguing amongst ourselves.
    I'm not sure having our political establishment meddle in the economy, environment and infrastructure would have been beneficial :wink:
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,526
    Scott_xP said:

    Mortimer said:

    The Boris paradox for the Sturge is every day he is PM, support for Indy remains, but she won't get an IndyRef whilst he remains.

    BoZo can't stop her holding a referendum with the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.
    Except - Cameron told us the result would be delivered as it would bind him.

    Sturgeon is going to legally find the money for her "referendum" how, exactly?



  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,319
    Mortimer said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Mortimer said:

    The Boris paradox for the Sturge is every day he is PM, support for Indy remains, but she won't get an IndyRef whilst he remains.

    BoZo can't stop her holding a referendum with the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.
    You mean one legislated for in the only parliament with power to do so? Errr, F- in constitutional politics for you Scotty.
    What Law would the Scottish Government be breaking by holding an advisory referendum on an arbitrary topic?
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 732
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I guess that's it chaps, Brexit's over! Well done, Scott - what will you be wearing on Reunification Day next week?
    This is the point. The bridges are burnt; the boats are burnt. There is no way back. So the fishermen, for example, are utterly screwed. There is nothing the Johnson government can do for them, beyond tossing them some cash, and they don't seem to be too much up for that.
    Funny how you lot suddenly care about fishermen.
    Despite your snide comment, I do actually care for them. Losing your livelihood is devastating. The fact some fishermen were part-actors in their own destruction doesn't make that destruction any less tragic. It's worse than I was expecting and I never thought much of Brexit. These guys bought into the dream. Being taken for fools will make them feel even worse.
    White fishermen were architects of their own destruction. West of Scotland creel fishermen were ignored as their views didn’t meet the BBC brexit view. They are the ones whose livelihoods are being destroyed. But they vote SNP, not tory, so they don’t matter.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,733

    Scott_xP said:

    Mortimer said:

    The Boris paradox for the Sturge is every day he is PM, support for Indy remains, but she won't get an IndyRef whilst he remains.

    BoZo can't stop her holding a referendum with the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.
    Except - Cameron told us the result would be delivered as it would bind him.

    Sturgeon is going to legally find the money for her "referendum" how, exactly?



    She could "Crowdfund" it
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,988

    BBC News - Marcus Rashford calls on PM for wider free school meal review
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55670096

    I can see this ending in free school meals for all during term time and holidays.

    I would have no problem with that but in all this his football is suffering and he was taken off v Burnley

    Whoscored have him as 12th best player in the Premier league this year, thats about his level (he should improve a bit further at his age), he is not underperforming.
    As a lifetime Man Utd supporter and season ticket holder for years until tempus fugit I can say he is a remarkable talent but this last few weeks has seen him underperforming, though I expect it is only a blip as he has real talent and is a great credit to himself and the club
    In the last couple of weeks your results include two 1-0 wins where he scored the winner and got the assist in the other, and you have climbed to the top of the table. Perhaps you have been spoilt by watching the likes of Ronaldo, Giggs et al.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,499

    Any idea UDI is legal is nonsense and importantly Nicola knows that

    Spectacular whataboutery

    The post was about a referendum

    Nippy can hold a referendum. BoZo can't stop her.

    And advisory referendum would have the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.

    These are facts.
  • Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Mortimer said:

    The Boris paradox for the Sturge is every day he is PM, support for Indy remains, but she won't get an IndyRef whilst he remains.

    BoZo can't stop her holding a referendum with the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.
    You mean one legislated for in the only parliament with power to do so? Errr, F- in constitutional politics for you Scotty.
    What Law would the Scottish Government be breaking by holding an advisory referendum on an arbitrary topic?
    None as far as I know unless using government funds may be an issue

    However, to gain international recognisation it would need to go through the parliamentary process
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,499
    Alistair said:

    What Law would the Scottish Government be breaking by holding an advisory referendum on an arbitrary topic?

    Exactly
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 5,650

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    any referendum without UK government and Westminster consent would be illegal

    That is not true

    And you know it
    No it is true.

    Our constitution is based on the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament, even Holyrood is merely a creation of Westminster, Westminster remains supreme.
    Our constitution is fungible and based on respect of the people who elect our Parliaments.

    We are a democracy not a Franco dictatorship.
    Fungible? Funny gibberish.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 24,566

    Scott_xP said:

    Mortimer said:

    The Boris paradox for the Sturge is every day he is PM, support for Indy remains, but she won't get an IndyRef whilst he remains.

    BoZo can't stop her holding a referendum with the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.
    Except - Cameron told us the result would be delivered as it would bind him.

    Sturgeon is going to legally find the money for her "referendum" how, exactly?



    The EU referendum apparently cost £130 million to organise and run. That was for an electorate of a smidgen under 50 million.

    The Scottish electorate is just under 4 million. Less than 10%. Lets assume it is more expensive to run an election in Scotland than England per elector because of the sparseness of the electorate over much of the country. So you are probably looking at say £20 million to run it.

    I would suggest that If Sturgeon chose to run an appeal for money to pay for it from the independence supporting general population she would rise that money pretty quickly.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,742

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Trump better have pardons for his family ready next Wednesday and ensure they are close by so they can be handed to them in person there and then.
    Why would he leave it til then?
    When (and if) Trump is pardoned is the great unknown. He is leaving it very late and any job-swap with Pence may have been kiboshed and a self-pardon is legally dubious. That said, we can't bet on it so who cares? Ironically, Trump's best hope might be that Biden will pardon him in order to free up time in the Senate and stop dictators poiting and laughing at America.
  • BBC News - Marcus Rashford calls on PM for wider free school meal review
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55670096

    I can see this ending in free school meals for all during term time and holidays.

    I would have no problem with that but in all this his football is suffering and he was taken off v Burnley

    Whoscored have him as 12th best player in the Premier league this year, thats about his level (he should improve a bit further at his age), he is not underperforming.
    As a lifetime Man Utd supporter and season ticket holder for years until tempus fugit I can say he is a remarkable talent but this last few weeks has seen him underperforming, though I expect it is only a blip as he has real talent and is a great credit to himself and the club
    In the last couple of weeks your results include two 1-0 wins where he scored the winner and got the assist in the other, and you have climbed to the top of the table. Perhaps you have been spoilt by watching the likes of Ronaldo, Giggs et al.
    And Bobby Charlton, George Best, Dennis Law to name a few legends

    Even Duncan Edwards and Tommy Taylor, and now I am showing my age

    But Marcus has dropped form over the last few weeks and most supporters know, this is temporary, he is a class footballer and wonderful person
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,509
    edited January 14

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    any referendum without UK government and Westminster consent would be illegal

    That is not true

    And you know it
    No it is true.

    Our constitution is based on the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament, even Holyrood is merely a creation of Westminster, Westminster remains supreme.
    Our constitution is fungible and based on respect of the people who elect our Parliaments.

    We are a democracy not a Franco dictatorship.
    Our entire unwritten constitution is based on the supremacy of the elected Westminster Parliament and the statutes it passes and the Queen signs
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 24,566

    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Mortimer said:

    The Boris paradox for the Sturge is every day he is PM, support for Indy remains, but she won't get an IndyRef whilst he remains.

    BoZo can't stop her holding a referendum with the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.
    You mean one legislated for in the only parliament with power to do so? Errr, F- in constitutional politics for you Scotty.
    What Law would the Scottish Government be breaking by holding an advisory referendum on an arbitrary topic?
    None as far as I know unless using government funds may be an issue

    However, to gain international recognisation it would need to go through the parliamentary process
    Probably not in the medium term. If the Independents get a clear win then they have won the PR battle pretty much before it starts. And recognition is all about PR.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,585

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Trump better have pardons for his family ready next Wednesday and ensure they are close by so they can be handed to them in person there and then.
    Why would he leave it til then?
    When (and if) Trump is pardoned is the great unknown. He is leaving it very late and any job-swap with Pence may have been kiboshed and a self-pardon is legally dubious. That said, we can't bet on it so who cares? Ironically, Trump's best hope might be that Biden will pardon him in order to free up time in the Senate and stop dictators poiting and laughing at America.
    Why would a Biden pardon "free up time in the Senate"? Presidential pardons specifically do not apply to impeachments, and any other prosecution of Trump would be through the regular federal and/or state courts.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 12,887

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I guess that's it chaps, Brexit's over! Well done, Scott - what will you be wearing on Reunification Day next week?
    This is the point. The bridges are burnt; the boats are burnt. There is no way back. So the fishermen, for example, are utterly screwed. There is nothing the Johnson government can do for them, beyond tossing them some cash, and they don't seem to be too much up for that.
    Funny how you lot suddenly care about fishermen.
    Despite your snide comment, I do actually care for them. Losing your livelihood is devastating. The fact some fishermen were part-actors in their own destruction doesn't make that destruction any less tragic. It's worse than I was expecting and I never thought much of Brexit. These guys bought into the dream. Being taken for fools will make them feel even worse.
    White fishermen were architects of their own destruction. West of Scotland creel fishermen were ignored as their views didn’t meet the BBC brexit view. They are the ones whose livelihoods are being destroyed. But they vote SNP, not tory, so they don’t matter.
    Whatever. These guys have been stuffed and appear to be pretty desperate. There is little they can do about their situation now. You have to feel for them.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,444
    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Mortimer said:

    The Boris paradox for the Sturge is every day he is PM, support for Indy remains, but she won't get an IndyRef whilst he remains.

    BoZo can't stop her holding a referendum with the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.
    You mean one legislated for in the only parliament with power to do so? Errr, F- in constitutional politics for you Scotty.
    What Law would the Scottish Government be breaking by holding an advisory referendum on an arbitrary topic?
    Potentially the Scotland Act but that question would no doubt end up in the Supreme Court.

    If the Supreme Court rules that an advisory referendum is legal (it could but no guarantee of that) the idea that can be just ignored is ridiculous. Heck if the SNP win a majority it would be ridiculous not to have a referendum and it seems Boris and Gove know that deep down too.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,239
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I guess that's it chaps, Brexit's over! Well done, Scott - what will you be wearing on Reunification Day next week?
    This is the point. The bridges are burnt; the boats are burnt. There is no way back. So the fishermen, for example, are utterly screwed. There is nothing the Johnson government can do for them, beyond tossing them some cash, and they don't seem to be too much up for that.
    Funny how you lot suddenly care about fishermen.
    Despite your snide comment, I do actually care for them. Losing your livelihood is devastating. The fact some fishermen were part-actors in their own destruction doesn't make that destruction any less tragic. It's worse than I was expecting and I never thought much of Brexit. These guys bought into the dream. Being taken for fools will make them feel even worse.
    Tonight CH4 had a Scottish fisherman just about greetin' over laying up his boat and crew, followed by a clip of Rees-Mogg and his British fish bullshit. Made me want to throw something at the telly, can only imagine what an actual fisherman would feel.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Any idea UDI is legal is nonsense and importantly Nicola knows that

    Spectacular whataboutery

    The post was about a referendum

    Nippy can hold a referendum. BoZo can't stop her.

    And advisory referendum would have the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.

    These are facts.
    Brexit went through Parliament or have you been in denial this last 12 months
  • theakestheakes Posts: 562
    Lots of people have no faith in SDteve Baker.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,509

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Mortimer said:

    The Boris paradox for the Sturge is every day he is PM, support for Indy remains, but she won't get an IndyRef whilst he remains.

    BoZo can't stop her holding a referendum with the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.
    Of course he can, any referendum without UK government and Westminster consent would be illegal and irrelevant as Madrid proved when it ignored the illegal referendum held by the Catalan government
    I am not sure you are correct.

    Don't forget the Brexit vote was advisory rather than binding.

    I would imagine Nippy can do pretty much as she likes regarding plebiscite arrangements. Where she is hamstrung is that she can't legally declare UDI on the result.
    s30 of the Scotland Act 1998 specifically reserves matters affecting the Union to be decided by Westminster and Westminster's approval alone is required for such matters.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,444

    Scott_xP said:

    Any idea UDI is legal is nonsense and importantly Nicola knows that

    Spectacular whataboutery

    The post was about a referendum

    Nippy can hold a referendum. BoZo can't stop her.

    And advisory referendum would have the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.

    These are facts.
    Brexit went through Parliament or have you been in denial this last 12 months
    He's been in denial the last five years.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    theakes said:

    Lots of people have no faith in SDteve Baker.

    Given how rapidly and meekly he retracted, one of those many people is ... Steve Baker.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 36,541
    IshmaelZ said:

    FF43 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I guess that's it chaps, Brexit's over! Well done, Scott - what will you be wearing on Reunification Day next week?
    This is the point. The bridges are burnt; the boats are burnt. There is no way back. So the fishermen, for example, are utterly screwed. There is nothing the Johnson government can do for them, beyond tossing them some cash, and they don't seem to be too much up for that.
    Funny how you lot suddenly care about fishermen.
    Because, what, nobody would *really* care about other peoples' businesses being destroyed? I don't know whether it is you or HYUFD strengthens my resolve never ever to vote Conservative again more. We are well beyond the "see the back of Johnson and think again" stage.
    “Shit happens”, to quote our Philip directly.
  • Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Mortimer said:

    The Boris paradox for the Sturge is every day he is PM, support for Indy remains, but she won't get an IndyRef whilst he remains.

    BoZo can't stop her holding a referendum with the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.
    You mean one legislated for in the only parliament with power to do so? Errr, F- in constitutional politics for you Scotty.
    What Law would the Scottish Government be breaking by holding an advisory referendum on an arbitrary topic?
    Potentially the Scotland Act but that question would no doubt end up in the Supreme Court.

    If the Supreme Court rules that an advisory referendum is legal (it could but no guarantee of that) the idea that can be just ignored is ridiculous. Heck if the SNP win a majority it would be ridiculous not to have a referendum and it seems Boris and Gove know that deep down too.
    As I do and indy2 needs to take place in 2022 2023 in my opinion
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,754

    Scott_xP said:

    Any idea UDI is legal is nonsense and importantly Nicola knows that

    Spectacular whataboutery

    The post was about a referendum

    Nippy can hold a referendum. BoZo can't stop her.

    And advisory referendum would have the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.

    These are facts.
    Brexit went through Parliament or have you been in denial this last 12 months
    Hypothetically, if an advisory referendum were won by Yes, do you think the Westminster Parliament would defy the 'will of the people'?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,509
    edited January 14

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    any referendum without UK government and Westminster consent would be illegal

    That is not true

    And you know it
    No it is true.

    Our UK constitution is based on the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament, even Holyrood is merely a creation of Westminster, Westminster remains supreme.
    Can you imagine the uproar North of the Border when an Independent, Independence Referendum is called and the Westminster Government ignore it. Support for Independence will go through the roof!

    Your boy might have saved the world from Covid, but he will have lost the Union.
    Precisely the opposite.

    Catalonia remains part of Spain today with support for independence falling because PM Rajoy in 2017 respected Spain's constitution and refused to allow a legal Catalan independence referendum despite high support for independence and ignored a UDI by the Catalan government.

    Had he not done so and given in to the Catalan Nationalists then Catalonia would now be independent and not part of Spain.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 5,650
    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Mortimer said:

    The Boris paradox for the Sturge is every day he is PM, support for Indy remains, but she won't get an IndyRef whilst he remains.

    BoZo can't stop her holding a referendum with the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.
    You mean one legislated for in the only parliament with power to do so? Errr, F- in constitutional politics for you Scotty.
    What Law would the Scottish Government be breaking by holding an advisory referendum on an arbitrary topic?
    Probably not breaking any law. But pointless since (i) unionists would boycott it, (ii) the UK government would ignore it, and (iii) if a "victory" denied went to the law courts they would throw it out as ultra vires.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,492

    theakes said:

    Lots of people have no faith in SDteve Baker.

    Given how rapidly and meekly he retracted, one of those many people is ... Steve Baker.
    Not one of his best days.
  • Advisory referendums are legal. As demonstrated in 2016.

    If Scotland holds such a referendum, and votes for Independence, we then get to enjoy English Tories telling us why the opinion of voters to leave can be discarded and ignored.

    Should be a laugh.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Any idea UDI is legal is nonsense and importantly Nicola knows that

    Spectacular whataboutery

    The post was about a referendum

    Nippy can hold a referendum. BoZo can't stop her.

    And advisory referendum would have the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.

    These are facts.
    Brexit went through Parliament or have you been in denial this last 12 months
    Hypothetically, if an advisory referendum were won by Yes, do you think the Westminster Parliament would defy the 'will of the people'?
    I believe indyref2 should take place without the controversy of an advisory referendum

    And as I said 2022 2023 likely timing post covid
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    IshmaelZ said:

    FF43 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I guess that's it chaps, Brexit's over! Well done, Scott - what will you be wearing on Reunification Day next week?
    This is the point. The bridges are burnt; the boats are burnt. There is no way back. So the fishermen, for example, are utterly screwed. There is nothing the Johnson government can do for them, beyond tossing them some cash, and they don't seem to be too much up for that.
    Funny how you lot suddenly care about fishermen.
    Because, what, nobody would *really* care about other peoples' businesses being destroyed? I don't know whether it is you or HYUFD strengthens my resolve never ever to vote Conservative again more. We are well beyond the "see the back of Johnson and think again" stage.
    We look forward with great anticipation to watching whatever immensely safe Tory seat you inhabit flip red or yellow then.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,499

    Brexit went through Parliament

    Spectacular whataboutery

    What legal weight did the Brexit referendum have?

    None.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Brexit went through Parliament

    Spectacular whataboutery

    What legal weight did the Brexit referendum have?

    None.
    BDS is a serious and acute condition
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,783

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Trump better have pardons for his family ready next Wednesday and ensure they are close by so they can be handed to them in person there and then.
    Why would he leave it til then?
    When (and if) Trump is pardoned is the great unknown. He is leaving it very late and any job-swap with Pence may have been kiboshed and a self-pardon is legally dubious. That said, we can't bet on it so who cares? Ironically, Trump's best hope might be that Biden will pardon him in order to free up time in the Senate and stop dictators poiting and laughing at America.
    There's an Smarkets market on an auto pardon. No 1.4, yes 2.8. He won't do it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,499

    BDS is a serious and acute condition

    BoZo denial syndrome?

    Get some help then...
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,319
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Mortimer said:

    The Boris paradox for the Sturge is every day he is PM, support for Indy remains, but she won't get an IndyRef whilst he remains.

    BoZo can't stop her holding a referendum with the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.
    Of course he can, any referendum without UK government and Westminster consent would be illegal and irrelevant as Madrid proved when it ignored the illegal referendum held by the Catalan government
    I am not sure you are correct.

    Don't forget the Brexit vote was advisory rather than binding.

    I would imagine Nippy can do pretty much as she likes regarding plebiscite arrangements. Where she is hamstrung is that she can't legally declare UDI on the result.
    s30 of the Scotland Act 1998 specifically reserves matters affecting the Union to be decided by Westminster and Westminster's approval alone is required for such matters.
    An advisory referendum is advisory.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 5,650

    Scott_xP said:

    Brexit went through Parliament

    Spectacular whataboutery

    What legal weight did the Brexit referendum have?

    None.
    BDS is a serious and acute condition
    Can't you feel his pain? Piquantly exquisite.

  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,103
    Scott_xP said:

    Brexit went through Parliament

    Spectacular whataboutery

    What legal weight did the Brexit referendum have?

    None.
    It was legislated for by the one body who had the jurisdiction to do it. It really is that simple.

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,319
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,499
    Alistair said:

    An advisory referendum is advisory.

    Not every reader has grasped that concept yet...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,556

    FF43 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I guess that's it chaps, Brexit's over! Well done, Scott - what will you be wearing on Reunification Day next week?
    This is the point. The bridges are burnt; the boats are burnt. There is no way back. So the fishermen, for example, are utterly screwed. There is nothing the Johnson government can do for them, beyond tossing them some cash, and they don't seem to be too much up for that.
    Funny how you lot suddenly care about fishermen.
    I've been predicting this on PB for over a year. About the likely plight of most Scots fishermen.
  • Scott_xP said:

    BDS is a serious and acute condition

    BoZo denial syndrome?

    Get some help then...
    I am in no need of help
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,733
    geoffw said:

    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Mortimer said:

    The Boris paradox for the Sturge is every day he is PM, support for Indy remains, but she won't get an IndyRef whilst he remains.

    BoZo can't stop her holding a referendum with the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.
    You mean one legislated for in the only parliament with power to do so? Errr, F- in constitutional politics for you Scotty.
    What Law would the Scottish Government be breaking by holding an advisory referendum on an arbitrary topic?
    Probably not breaking any law. But pointless since (i) unionists would boycott it, (ii) the UK government would ignore it, and (iii) if a "victory" denied went to the law courts they would throw it out as ultra vires.

    It's like @Richard_Tyndall said down thread, Nippy wins the PR war, Nippy wins Independence, perhaps not immediately, but it's in the bag.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,556
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    any referendum without UK government and Westminster consent would be illegal

    That is not true

    And you know it
    No it is true.

    Our constitution is based on the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament, even Holyrood is merely a creation of Westminster, Westminster remains supreme.
    Our constitution is fungible and based on respect of the people who elect our Parliaments.

    We are a democracy not a Franco dictatorship.
    Our entire unwritten constitution is based on the supremacy of the elected Westminster Parliament and the statutes it passes and the Queen signs
    A load of shite. If the constitution isn't written it doesn't exist, except in your fantasies and those of Mr Rees-Mogg.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,499

    It's like @Richard_Tyndall said down thread, Nippy wins the PR war, Nippy wins Independence, perhaps not immediately, but it's in the bag.

    The Brexit denialists are determined to go down with the BoZo ship on this one...
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 16,499

    I am in no need of help

    The first step is acknowledging you have a problem...
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 5,650

    geoffw said:

    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Mortimer said:

    The Boris paradox for the Sturge is every day he is PM, support for Indy remains, but she won't get an IndyRef whilst he remains.

    BoZo can't stop her holding a referendum with the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.
    You mean one legislated for in the only parliament with power to do so? Errr, F- in constitutional politics for you Scotty.
    What Law would the Scottish Government be breaking by holding an advisory referendum on an arbitrary topic?
    Probably not breaking any law. But pointless since (i) unionists would boycott it, (ii) the UK government would ignore it, and (iii) if a "victory" denied went to the law courts they would throw it out as ultra vires.

    It's like @Richard_Tyndall said down thread, Nippy wins the PR war, Nippy wins Independence, perhaps not immediately, but it's in the bag.
    Or not, as the case may be.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,526
    geoffw said:

    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Mortimer said:

    The Boris paradox for the Sturge is every day he is PM, support for Indy remains, but she won't get an IndyRef whilst he remains.

    BoZo can't stop her holding a referendum with the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.
    You mean one legislated for in the only parliament with power to do so? Errr, F- in constitutional politics for you Scotty.
    What Law would the Scottish Government be breaking by holding an advisory referendum on an arbitrary topic?
    Probably not breaking any law. But pointless since (i) unionists would boycott it, (ii) the UK government would ignore it, and (iii) if a "victory" denied went to the law courts they would throw it out as ultra vires.

    And for that reason, the courts would not uphold it as a legal expenditure by Government.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,556
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    any referendum without UK government and Westminster consent would be illegal

    That is not true

    And you know it
    No it is true.

    Our UK constitution is based on the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament, even Holyrood is merely a creation of Westminster, Westminster remains supreme.
    Can you imagine the uproar North of the Border when an Independent, Independence Referendum is called and the Westminster Government ignore it. Support for Independence will go through the roof!

    Your boy might have saved the world from Covid, but he will have lost the Union.
    Precisely the opposite.

    Catalonia remains part of Spain today with support for independence falling because PM Rajoy in 2017 respected Spain's constitution and refused to allow a legal Catalan independence referendum despite high support for independence and ignored a UDI by the Catalan government.

    Had he not done so and given in to the Catalan Nationalists then Catalonia would now be independent and not part of Spain.
    Yopu certainly don't give a shite for the Spanish when you go on and on about invading the poor chaps when they reclaim Gibraltar on exactly the same logic as you assert English superemacy over Scotland - just because they/you say so.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,502
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    any referendum without UK government and Westminster consent would be illegal

    That is not true

    And you know it
    No it is true.

    Our constitution is based on the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament, even Holyrood is merely a creation of Westminster, Westminster remains supreme.
    Our constitution is fungible and based on respect of the people who elect our Parliaments.

    We are a democracy not a Franco dictatorship.
    Our entire unwritten constitution is based on the supremacy of the elected Westminster Parliament and the statutes it passes and the Queen signs
    A load of shite. If the constitution isn't written it doesn't exist, except in your fantasies and those of Mr Rees-Mogg.
    ..but it is based on precedent. And the process to obtain a section 30 to hold the referendum was the process.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    any referendum without UK government and Westminster consent would be illegal

    That is not true

    And you know it
    No it is true.

    Our constitution is based on the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament, even Holyrood is merely a creation of Westminster, Westminster remains supreme.
    Our constitution is fungible and based on respect of the people who elect our Parliaments.

    We are a democracy not a Franco dictatorship.
    Our entire unwritten constitution is based on the supremacy of the elected Westminster Parliament and the statutes it passes and the Queen signs
    A load of shite. If the constitution isn't written it doesn't exist, except in your fantasies and those of Mr Rees-Mogg.
    He has talked plenty of nonsense about advisory referendums and more besides, but that doesn't excuse competing with nonsense about constitutions not existing because of a term like unwritten being taken too literally. I find it hard to believe you think the constitution (and you say the, not a specific part) doesn't exist because people used the term unwritten.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 5,650

    geoffw said:

    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Mortimer said:

    The Boris paradox for the Sturge is every day he is PM, support for Indy remains, but she won't get an IndyRef whilst he remains.

    BoZo can't stop her holding a referendum with the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.
    You mean one legislated for in the only parliament with power to do so? Errr, F- in constitutional politics for you Scotty.
    What Law would the Scottish Government be breaking by holding an advisory referendum on an arbitrary topic?
    Probably not breaking any law. But pointless since (i) unionists would boycott it, (ii) the UK government would ignore it, and (iii) if a "victory" denied went to the law courts they would throw it out as ultra vires.

    And for that reason, the courts would not uphold it as a legal expenditure by Government.
    Not even a Barnett consequential.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,509

    Advisory referendums are legal. As demonstrated in 2016.

    If Scotland holds such a referendum, and votes for Independence, we then get to enjoy English Tories telling us why the opinion of voters to leave can be discarded and ignored.

    Should be a laugh.

    2016's EU referendum was only legal with Westminster approval and it was held 46 years after the previous EEC referendum ie a genuine generation
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,509
    edited January 14

    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Mortimer said:

    The Boris paradox for the Sturge is every day he is PM, support for Indy remains, but she won't get an IndyRef whilst he remains.

    BoZo can't stop her holding a referendum with the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.
    You mean one legislated for in the only parliament with power to do so? Errr, F- in constitutional politics for you Scotty.
    What Law would the Scottish Government be breaking by holding an advisory referendum on an arbitrary topic?
    Potentially the Scotland Act but that question would no doubt end up in the Supreme Court.

    If the Supreme Court rules that an advisory referendum is legal (it could but no guarantee of that) the idea that can be just ignored is ridiculous. Heck if the SNP win a majority it would be ridiculous not to have a referendum and it seems Boris and Gove know that deep down too.
    By definition the Supreme Court cannot ignore statute law and the Scotland Act 1998 which reserves Union matters to Westminster
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,556

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    any referendum without UK government and Westminster consent would be illegal

    That is not true

    And you know it
    No it is true.

    Our constitution is based on the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament, even Holyrood is merely a creation of Westminster, Westminster remains supreme.
    Our constitution is fungible and based on respect of the people who elect our Parliaments.

    We are a democracy not a Franco dictatorship.
    Our entire unwritten constitution is based on the supremacy of the elected Westminster Parliament and the statutes it passes and the Queen signs
    A load of shite. If the constitution isn't written it doesn't exist, except in your fantasies and those of Mr Rees-Mogg.
    ..but it is based on precedent. And the process to obtain a section 30 to hold the referendum was the process.
    Except that that itself was unprecedented. So ...

    Anyway, good night all. I'm off to relax and do something else, before the fantasy tanks come out.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,733
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    any referendum without UK government and Westminster consent would be illegal

    That is not true

    And you know it
    No it is true.

    Our UK constitution is based on the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament, even Holyrood is merely a creation of Westminster, Westminster remains supreme.
    Can you imagine the uproar North of the Border when an Independent, Independence Referendum is called and the Westminster Government ignore it. Support for Independence will go through the roof!

    Your boy might have saved the world from Covid, but he will have lost the Union.
    Precisely the opposite.

    Catalonia remains part of Spain today with support for independence falling because PM Rajoy in 2017 respected Spain's constitution and refused to allow a legal Catalan independence referendum despite high support for independence and ignored a UDI by the Catalan government.

    Had he not done so and given in to the Catalan Nationalists then Catalonia would now be independent and not part of Spain.
    To the EU's eternal shame the Catalan politicians had to face prison or hi-tail it to Belgium. I suspect it is not over yet.

    Johnson is perfectly entitled to do what you suggest, but then you are just a step away from rolling your English tanks into Gretna Green.
  • Scott_xP said:

    I am in no need of help

    The first step is acknowledging you have a problem...
    Such irony from you of all people
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 21,319
    Scott_xP said:

    Alistair said:

    An advisory referendum is advisory.

    Not every reader has grasped that concept yet...
    I did a flow chart and everything a few weeks back.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 5,650
    HYUFD said:

    Advisory referendums are legal. As demonstrated in 2016.

    If Scotland holds such a referendum, and votes for Independence, we then get to enjoy English Tories telling us why the opinion of voters to leave can be discarded and ignored.

    Should be a laugh.

    2016's EU referendum was only legal with Westminster approval and it was held 46 years after the previous EEC referendum ie a genuine generation
    Two, more like.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,556
    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Mortimer said:

    The Boris paradox for the Sturge is every day he is PM, support for Indy remains, but she won't get an IndyRef whilst he remains.

    BoZo can't stop her holding a referendum with the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.
    You mean one legislated for in the only parliament with power to do so? Errr, F- in constitutional politics for you Scotty.
    What Law would the Scottish Government be breaking by holding an advisory referendum on an arbitrary topic?
    Potentially the Scotland Act but that question would no doubt end up in the Supreme Court.

    If the Supreme Court rules that an advisory referendum is legal (it could but no guarantee of that) the idea that can be just ignored is ridiculous. Heck if the SNP win a majority it would be ridiculous not to have a referendum and it seems Boris and Gove know that deep down too.
    By definition the SC cannot ignore statute and the Scotland Act 1998 which reserves Union matters to Westminster
    Bujt it gives priority to Scots law on matters handed up from the Scottish courts, as ytou should remember full well from the attempts of your party to close down democracy in the UK. And that matter is still untested.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,509
    IshmaelZ said:

    FF43 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I guess that's it chaps, Brexit's over! Well done, Scott - what will you be wearing on Reunification Day next week?
    This is the point. The bridges are burnt; the boats are burnt. There is no way back. So the fishermen, for example, are utterly screwed. There is nothing the Johnson government can do for them, beyond tossing them some cash, and they don't seem to be too much up for that.
    Funny how you lot suddenly care about fishermen.
    Because, what, nobody would *really* care about other peoples' businesses being destroyed? I don't know whether it is you or HYUFD strengthens my resolve never ever to vote Conservative again more. We are well beyond the "see the back of Johnson and think again" stage.
    Did you vote Tory in 2019 when the Tories won a majority of 80? If not, I could not care less
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,444
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    any referendum without UK government and Westminster consent would be illegal

    That is not true

    And you know it
    No it is true.

    Our constitution is based on the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament, even Holyrood is merely a creation of Westminster, Westminster remains supreme.
    Our constitution is fungible and based on respect of the people who elect our Parliaments.

    We are a democracy not a Franco dictatorship.
    Our entire unwritten constitution is based on the supremacy of the elected Westminster Parliament and the statutes it passes and the Queen signs
    Because Parliament is elected and power belongs in the people through their elected representatives.

    The idea that you can ignore a segment of the population that votes to leave and keep them prisoners, in chains to the British state indefinitely, is pure poppycock.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,556
    HYUFD said:

    Advisory referendums are legal. As demonstrated in 2016.

    If Scotland holds such a referendum, and votes for Independence, we then get to enjoy English Tories telling us why the opinion of voters to leave can be discarded and ignored.

    Should be a laugh.

    2016's EU referendum was only legal with Westminster approval and it was held 46 years after the previous EEC referendum ie a genuine generation
    Now that really is a steaming heap of logical chimpanzee faeces with a "generation" shoehorned into it like a Flake in a chocolatye ice cream.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,055

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    It is impressive that the explosion in support for independence is so closely aligned with Boris Johnson's premiership.



    I do not doubt than Boris is a big factor and it is why when covid is on the wain I would like to see Rishi as PM
    But it used to be he should go when he'd delivered Brexit.

    This is starting to feel a bit like a journey towards the horizon.
    Considering he's got a deal, multiple vaccines and is doing well in his job now why should he go imminently?
    "doing well"?!

    How do you define this??

    I find the Boris-hating Remainers and lefties quite tedious, but I would also struggle to pinpoint anything Boris has done "well".

    It's a hideous plague. No one in the Western world, absent the antipodes, has done "well". The best that can be said for Boris is that he's not as boring as Starmer. That's it, really.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,509
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Mortimer said:

    The Boris paradox for the Sturge is every day he is PM, support for Indy remains, but she won't get an IndyRef whilst he remains.

    BoZo can't stop her holding a referendum with the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.
    You mean one legislated for in the only parliament with power to do so? Errr, F- in constitutional politics for you Scotty.
    What Law would the Scottish Government be breaking by holding an advisory referendum on an arbitrary topic?
    Potentially the Scotland Act but that question would no doubt end up in the Supreme Court.

    If the Supreme Court rules that an advisory referendum is legal (it could but no guarantee of that) the idea that can be just ignored is ridiculous. Heck if the SNP win a majority it would be ridiculous not to have a referendum and it seems Boris and Gove know that deep down too.
    By definition the SC cannot ignore statute and the Scotland Act 1998 which reserves Union matters to Westminster
    Bujt it gives priority to Scots law on matters handed up from the Scottish courts, as ytou should remember full well from the attempts of your party to close down democracy in the UK. And that matter is still untested.
    No, the SC also confirmed Holyrood has no legal power to stop Brexit, only Westminster can do that.

    That is why Boris was impotent with no Westminster majority, now with a Westminster majority of 80 Boris is all powerful
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,556
    kle4 said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    any referendum without UK government and Westminster consent would be illegal

    That is not true

    And you know it
    No it is true.

    Our constitution is based on the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament, even Holyrood is merely a creation of Westminster, Westminster remains supreme.
    Our constitution is fungible and based on respect of the people who elect our Parliaments.

    We are a democracy not a Franco dictatorship.
    Our entire unwritten constitution is based on the supremacy of the elected Westminster Parliament and the statutes it passes and the Queen signs
    A load of shite. If the constitution isn't written it doesn't exist, except in your fantasies and those of Mr Rees-Mogg.
    He has talked plenty of nonsense about advisory referendums and more besides, but that doesn't excuse competing with nonsense about constitutions not existing because of a term like unwritten being taken too literally. I find it hard to believe you think the constitution (and you say the, not a specific part) doesn't exist because people used the term unwritten.
    I'm aware there are collections of laws, and customs, but it;s not a formal constitution in the US sense. HYUFD is only using it in the desperate attempot to claim that the laws of England (sic) are as immutable as the laws of the Medes and the Persians, which they are not, as they can be changed.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,509

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    HYUFD said:

    any referendum without UK government and Westminster consent would be illegal

    That is not true

    And you know it
    No it is true.

    Our constitution is based on the sovereignty of Crown in Parliament, even Holyrood is merely a creation of Westminster, Westminster remains supreme.
    Our constitution is fungible and based on respect of the people who elect our Parliaments.

    We are a democracy not a Franco dictatorship.
    Our entire unwritten constitution is based on the supremacy of the elected Westminster Parliament and the statutes it passes and the Queen signs
    Because Parliament is elected and power belongs in the people through their elected representatives.

    The idea that you can ignore a segment of the population that votes to leave and keep them prisoners, in chains to the British state indefinitely, is pure poppycock.
    Constitutionally it is not.

    What Westminster says goes
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 65,124
    Corbynistas in Bristol...

    When will city taxpayers find out why Bristol Energy failed and how much of their money was lost?

    https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/truth-about-bristol-energy-failure-4886214.amp
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,733
    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Alistair said:

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Mortimer said:

    The Boris paradox for the Sturge is every day he is PM, support for Indy remains, but she won't get an IndyRef whilst he remains.

    BoZo can't stop her holding a referendum with the same legal weight as the Brexit vote.
    You mean one legislated for in the only parliament with power to do so? Errr, F- in constitutional politics for you Scotty.
    What Law would the Scottish Government be breaking by holding an advisory referendum on an arbitrary topic?
    Probably not breaking any law. But pointless since (i) unionists would boycott it, (ii) the UK government would ignore it, and (iii) if a "victory" denied went to the law courts they would throw it out as ultra vires.

    It's like @Richard_Tyndall said down thread, Nippy wins the PR war, Nippy wins Independence, perhaps not immediately, but it's in the bag.
    Or not, as the case may be.

    If you think that, you are mistaken, and you could well wind up commanding one of HYUFD's tank squadrons in the forthcoming invasion.
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