Trump finally agrees that the Biden transition can begin but the Betfair market remains open – polit

algarkirk said:

bigjohnowls said:

Laura Pidcock
@LauraPidcock
· 1h
The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

kinabalu said:

Cyclefree said:

From today’s Times

“Emma McClarkin, of the British Beer and Pub Association, said that the new measures “unfairly” targeted pubs and would eradicate the viability of at least 90 per cent in Tiers 2 and 3. “If these tighter tier restrictions are forced upon us, far more government financial support will be needed to avoid the resulting carnage.”

The Institute of Economic Affairs, the think tank, said that there was “no scientific basis” for insisting that drinks should be served with food. Christopher Snowdon, its head of lifestyle economics, said that Tier 2 restrictions were “a death sentence for countless pubs and restaurants”.

Yep - sheer malice from the government.

The deliberate destruction of 90% of a sector.

No polite words to describe what I think of this government.

No, I can't see why having a meal with your drink makes it safer.

Is there an anti-booze sentiment in play maybe? The idea that people just drinking get pissed, forget there's a pandemic on and start horsing around?

There is a fair bit of academic study on the subject, IIRC.

That cultures where food is always taken with alcohol are more... organised... in their social behaviour when alcohol is involved is generally true.

What is disputed is that *adding food* into the mix in a culture changes it that much.

i.e. a bowl of chips doesn't turn the UK vertical drinking establishment into an Italian cafe.

Yes, some pronounced cultural differences. I'd like to say I'm more in tune with the continental food-based civilized drinking vibe but I'm afraid I'm not. It's rather the opposite. I dislike having just one or two drinks because for me the point of alcohol is to get a buzz on, so it's three as a minimum. Food detracts from the buzz. It lines your stomach and mutes it. For me eating and drinking are very separate experiences. If I'm eating I don't want any booze at all and if I'm boozing I don't want to eat. You only really get the buzz, I find, on an empty stomach. But each to his or her own of course and I certainly would not recommend my approach. My relationship with alcohol, while under control these days, is not ideal.

MarqueeMark said:

Beibheirli_C said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

LostPassword said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I see the the Yoons in an effort to distract themselves from rending their House of Bruar garments and screeching in anguish at why the stupid voters don't hate Nippy, Nipoleon, Jimmy Krankie etc as much as they do, are turning to Blackford for relief. Well done him for providing an important social service in these trying times.

As an Englishman living in Edinburgh I think Blackford's behaviour raises legitimate questions about what the SNPs much vaunted civic nationalism will look like in practice.

Your trivializing the situation does nothing to reassure me.

Nats cant help trivialising. Nationalism always is a simplistic and prejudiced answer to complex questions.

Brexit => Scexit

Scexit => Brussels vassalage

Roy_G_Biv said:

Burgessian said:

Carnyx said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

LostPassword said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I see the the Yoons in an effort to distract themselves from rending their House of Bruar garments and screeching in anguish at why the stupid voters don't hate Nippy, Nipoleon, Jimmy Krankie etc as much as they do, are turning to Blackford for relief. Well done him for providing an important social service in these trying times.

As an Englishman living in Edinburgh I think Blackford's behaviour raises legitimate questions about what the SNPs much vaunted civic nationalism will look like in practice.

Your trivializing the situation does nothing to reassure me.

Nats cant help trivialising. Nationalism always is a simplistic and prejudiced answer to complex questions.

YOu're assuming that it's about the person being English rather than being seen to have breached the rules (rightly or wrongly). That's a remarkably nationalistic viewpoint.

Funny how Blackford didn't find someone from the Central Belt to chastise for breaking the rules. Decided to go after someone from England (who hadn't broken the rules). Let's face it, we all know what he's about, don't we?

If you're going to hang the charge of racism around his neck, you'll need better evidence than that.
I think the man is a chump, and the tweet was a terrible idea. But that doesn't make him a racist by a long, long chalk.

RobD said:

bigjohnowls said:

Laura Pidcock
@LauraPidcock
· 1h
The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

Who is she?

Wulfrun_Phil said:

Roy_G_Biv said:

Burgessian said:

Carnyx said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

LostPassword said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I see the the Yoons in an effort to distract themselves from rending their House of Bruar garments and screeching in anguish at why the stupid voters don't hate Nippy, Nipoleon, Jimmy Krankie etc as much as they do, are turning to Blackford for relief. Well done him for providing an important social service in these trying times.

As an Englishman living in Edinburgh I think Blackford's behaviour raises legitimate questions about what the SNPs much vaunted civic nationalism will look like in practice.

Your trivializing the situation does nothing to reassure me.

Nats cant help trivialising. Nationalism always is a simplistic and prejudiced answer to complex questions.

YOu're assuming that it's about the person being English rather than being seen to have breached the rules (rightly or wrongly). That's a remarkably nationalistic viewpoint.

Funny how Blackford didn't find someone from the Central Belt to chastise for breaking the rules. Decided to go after someone from England (who hadn't broken the rules). Let's face it, we all know what he's about, don't we?

If you're going to hang the charge of racism around his neck, you'll need better evidence than that.
I think the man is a chump, and the tweet was a terrible idea. But that doesn't make him a racist by a long, long chalk.

It's pathological and irrational hatred of the English, voiced at every opportunity to encourage those feelings in others for political gain. If English people were an ethnic minority, as opposed to just a minority of those living in Scotland, it would be pretty easy to put a label on.

Roy_G_Biv said:

OnboardG1 said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Carnyx said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Theuniondivvie invariably indicates that those who are either English or not living in Scotland are unable to comment on anything relating to Scotland.

And yet here you are, 'able' to comment.
Even if I had the power to stop you I wouldn't, I just believe the really stupid and ill informed ones should either be ignored or have the piss ripped out of them according to taste and which day of the week it is.

Perhaps [edit] even more to the point, there is a major question about the reliability of the UK media on Scottish politics. As you and I have been discussing today. And in turn on the quality of information on which PBers can depend.

Nowadays I tend to wearily think that folk, even relatively smart ones, believe what they want to believe.
Eg the Andra Neil view is fairly prevalent, that is the London centric liberal media give the SNP a free ride 'cos they're blinded by Nippy's APPARENT competence, the Scotch media give them a free ride cos they're a bit shit. My spirit quails at challenging that level of bad take.

You're completely right. And we tend to surround ourselves, intentionally or otherwise, with people and information sources that reinforce our beliefs. The only daft thing in your statement is the implicit assumption that this isn't true of you and those of your persuasion, who are apparently exempt? Perhaps that wasn't what you meant - if so, apologies.

I don't think that's what he's getting at. Even nats don't especially like the cybernats.

However, it is absolutely true that the National media often send genuinely unqualified reporters to cover Scottish affairs. There are a couple that take it seriously enough (The Times and the Sun both have very strongly anti-SNP prejudices but they at least have the decency to have proper Scotland teams), but you only need to watch one of the FM's press conferences to see that the local papers are well prepared and ask genuinely difficult questions, while the nationals (with the noted exceptions) ask something mad and silly from an underprepares North of England correspondent that gets easily batted away.

Didn't the Sun back the SNP in the 2015 election?

BannedinnParis said:

Crabbie said:

Malmesbury said:

Ha - it pretty much was. George Street after about 8pm on Friday and Saturday was a place loosing control....

The comic touch I liked, was that a pub I used to drink in had no trouble. Metal heads, goths and bikers. Very now and then, one of the gelled hair types would look in the door, and very obviously think "not here" and go away again......

I used to drink in the Gloc...
Great jukebox

Used to work there, summer/autumn 2001.

No more, but at least was still being used as a pub last time I was in Oxford.

Carnyx said:

Wulfrun_Phil said:

Roy_G_Biv said:

Burgessian said:

Carnyx said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

LostPassword said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I see the the Yoons in an effort to distract themselves from rending their House of Bruar garments and screeching in anguish at why the stupid voters don't hate Nippy, Nipoleon, Jimmy Krankie etc as much as they do, are turning to Blackford for relief. Well done him for providing an important social service in these trying times.

As an Englishman living in Edinburgh I think Blackford's behaviour raises legitimate questions about what the SNPs much vaunted civic nationalism will look like in practice.

Your trivializing the situation does nothing to reassure me.

Nats cant help trivialising. Nationalism always is a simplistic and prejudiced answer to complex questions.

YOu're assuming that it's about the person being English rather than being seen to have breached the rules (rightly or wrongly). That's a remarkably nationalistic viewpoint.

Funny how Blackford didn't find someone from the Central Belt to chastise for breaking the rules. Decided to go after someone from England (who hadn't broken the rules). Let's face it, we all know what he's about, don't we?

If you're going to hang the charge of racism around his neck, you'll need better evidence than that.
I think the man is a chump, and the tweet was a terrible idea. But that doesn't make him a racist by a long, long chalk.

It's pathological and irrational hatred of the English, voiced at every opportunity to encourage those feelings in others for political gain. If English people were an ethnic minority, as opposed to just a minority of those living in Scotland, it would be pretty easy to put a label on.

Funny how there are so many English in the SNP and in the Yes movement - who have set up their own group precisely to refute such assumptions.

LostPassword said:

algarkirk said:

bigjohnowls said:

Laura Pidcock
@LauraPidcock
· 1h
The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.

I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.

kinabalu said:

LostPassword said:

algarkirk said:

bigjohnowls said:

Laura Pidcock
@LauraPidcock
· 1h
The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.

I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.

If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

LostPassword said:

algarkirk said:

bigjohnowls said:

Laura Pidcock
@LauraPidcock
· 1h
The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.

I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.

If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.

Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall

contrarian said:

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

LostPassword said:

algarkirk said:

bigjohnowls said:

Laura Pidcock
@LauraPidcock
· 1h
The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.

I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.

If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.

Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall

Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.

TrèsDifficile said:

RobD said:

bigjohnowls said:

Laura Pidcock
@LauraPidcock
· 1h
The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

Who is she?

She is National Secretary of The People’s Assembly, according to her twitters.

kinabalu said:

OnboardG1 said:

From the reading of the stories about AZ's accidental discovery of their half-dose scheme, it reads that 500 people in the Phase 2 trial element (i.e the first people to get it in any sort of numbers for initial immune response and safety) got the half dose by accident. However, reading between the lines (and what is written in the story) and given that nearly 3000 people got the half-full scheme the trial regulator required them to alter their P3 trial to accomodate that mistake in a proportional way so that they'd get workable results out of it. That's my reading of it, those with more experience in this sort of medical trial will likely have better insight.

It's very interesting, isn't it. Perhaps they will do a variety of follow up tests. If half-full is better than full-full how about half- half or third-full or nil-full etc? Can't see them holding up the initial rollout for this though. I would think that will go ahead on the basis of the most fully tested (full-full) regime.

HYUFD said:

contrarian said:

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

LostPassword said:

algarkirk said:

bigjohnowls said:

Laura Pidcock
@LauraPidcock
· 1h
The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.

I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.

If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.

Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall

Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.

Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush

rottenborough said:

RochdalePioneers said:

The Pidcock flounce - a marvellous thing. Pity that they won't flounce all the way off to start Socialist Unity or whatever.

Chris 'Derby' Williamson is working on it.

RobD said:

kinabalu said:

OnboardG1 said:

From the reading of the stories about AZ's accidental discovery of their half-dose scheme, it reads that 500 people in the Phase 2 trial element (i.e the first people to get it in any sort of numbers for initial immune response and safety) got the half dose by accident. However, reading between the lines (and what is written in the story) and given that nearly 3000 people got the half-full scheme the trial regulator required them to alter their P3 trial to accomodate that mistake in a proportional way so that they'd get workable results out of it. That's my reading of it, those with more experience in this sort of medical trial will likely have better insight.

It's very interesting, isn't it. Perhaps they will do a variety of follow up tests. If half-full is better than full-full how about half- half or third-full or nil-full etc? Can't see them holding up the initial rollout for this though. I would think that will go ahead on the basis of the most fully tested (full-full) regime.

90% is good enough, surely?

CarlottaVance said:

Well there's a surprise good news:

https://twitter.com/FinancialTimes/status/1331204362526466048?s=20

Dura_Ace said:

HYUFD said:

contrarian said:

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

LostPassword said:

algarkirk said:

bigjohnowls said:

Laura Pidcock
@LauraPidcock
· 1h
The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.

I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.

If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.

Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall

Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.

Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush

You don’t think Farage will find more specious grievances with which to inflame the lumpen? There's the ongoing channel fiasco for a start and that's before het gets his teeth into Princess Nut Nut's green agenda.

Burgessian said:

Carnyx said:

Wulfrun_Phil said:

Roy_G_Biv said:

Burgessian said:

Carnyx said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

LostPassword said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I see the the Yoons in an effort to distract themselves from rending their House of Bruar garments and screeching in anguish at why the stupid voters don't hate Nippy, Nipoleon, Jimmy Krankie etc as much as they do, are turning to Blackford for relief. Well done him for providing an important social service in these trying times.

As an Englishman living in Edinburgh I think Blackford's behaviour raises legitimate questions about what the SNPs much vaunted civic nationalism will look like in practice.

Your trivializing the situation does nothing to reassure me.

Nats cant help trivialising. Nationalism always is a simplistic and prejudiced answer to complex questions.

YOu're assuming that it's about the person being English rather than being seen to have breached the rules (rightly or wrongly). That's a remarkably nationalistic viewpoint.

Funny how Blackford didn't find someone from the Central Belt to chastise for breaking the rules. Decided to go after someone from England (who hadn't broken the rules). Let's face it, we all know what he's about, don't we?

If you're going to hang the charge of racism around his neck, you'll need better evidence than that.
I think the man is a chump, and the tweet was a terrible idea. But that doesn't make him a racist by a long, long chalk.

It's pathological and irrational hatred of the English, voiced at every opportunity to encourage those feelings in others for political gain. If English people were an ethnic minority, as opposed to just a minority of those living in Scotland, it would be pretty easy to put a label on.

Funny how there are so many English in the SNP and in the Yes movement - who have set up their own group precisely to refute such assumptions.

I'm sure Carnyx will remember the very ugly spate of social media claims about how "the English" were responsible for infecting Scotland with Covid. Which was capped by the Bampots at the border with their "English Not Welcome" signs. Rightly, this was condemned by all responsible politicians in Scotland. This is why Blackford's tweet was so disgraceful and utterly irresponsible.

Luckyguy1983 said:

Burgessian said:

Carnyx said:

Wulfrun_Phil said:

Roy_G_Biv said:

Burgessian said:

Carnyx said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

LostPassword said:

Theuniondivvie said:

I see the the Yoons in an effort to distract themselves from rending their House of Bruar garments and screeching in anguish at why the stupid voters don't hate Nippy, Nipoleon, Jimmy Krankie etc as much as they do, are turning to Blackford for relief. Well done him for providing an important social service in these trying times.

As an Englishman living in Edinburgh I think Blackford's behaviour raises legitimate questions about what the SNPs much vaunted civic nationalism will look like in practice.

Your trivializing the situation does nothing to reassure me.

Nats cant help trivialising. Nationalism always is a simplistic and prejudiced answer to complex questions.

YOu're assuming that it's about the person being English rather than being seen to have breached the rules (rightly or wrongly). That's a remarkably nationalistic viewpoint.

Funny how Blackford didn't find someone from the Central Belt to chastise for breaking the rules. Decided to go after someone from England (who hadn't broken the rules). Let's face it, we all know what he's about, don't we?

If you're going to hang the charge of racism around his neck, you'll need better evidence than that.
I think the man is a chump, and the tweet was a terrible idea. But that doesn't make him a racist by a long, long chalk.

It's pathological and irrational hatred of the English, voiced at every opportunity to encourage those feelings in others for political gain. If English people were an ethnic minority, as opposed to just a minority of those living in Scotland, it would be pretty easy to put a label on.

Funny how there are so many English in the SNP and in the Yes movement - who have set up their own group precisely to refute such assumptions.

I'm sure Carnyx will remember the very ugly spate of social media claims about how "the English" were responsible for infecting Scotland with Covid. Which was capped by the Bampots at the border with their "English Not Welcome" signs. Rightly, this was condemned by all responsible politicians in Scotland. This is why Blackford's tweet was so disgraceful and utterly irresponsible.

Closer to home, a few of our Nats here would probably be quite frank about disliking the English if they were asked - I can't see Stuart Dickson claiming the contrary for example. Their choice, their loss in terms of potential friendships, really not worth bothering about.

FrancisUrquhart said:

CarlottaVance said:

Well there's a surprise good news:

https://twitter.com/FinancialTimes/status/1331204362526466048?s=20

At this rate, come the new year they will be claiming it is 101% effective....

OnboardG1 said:

From the reading of the stories about AZ's accidental discovery of their half-dose scheme, it reads that 500 people in the Phase 2 trial element (i.e the first people to get it in any sort of numbers for initial immune response and safety) got the half dose by accident. However, reading between the lines (and what is written in the story) and given that nearly 3000 people got the half-full scheme the trial regulator required them to alter their P3 trial to accomodate that mistake in a proportional way so that they'd get workable results out of it. That's my reading of it, those with more experience in this sort of medical trial will likely have better insight.

kinabalu said:

HYUFD said:

contrarian said:

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

LostPassword said:

algarkirk said:

bigjohnowls said:

Laura Pidcock
@LauraPidcock
· 1h
The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.

I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.

If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.

Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall

Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.

Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush

I thought we couldn't have a Canada?

dixiedean said:

The politics of which area goes into which Tier is going to be the main story of the next week I feel.
The areas of growth (as opposed to raw numbers) in the virus are in the South. And Tory.
Already we are seeing lots of special pleading.

kinabalu said:

OnboardG1 said:

From the reading of the stories about AZ's accidental discovery of their half-dose scheme, it reads that 500 people in the Phase 2 trial element (i.e the first people to get it in any sort of numbers for initial immune response and safety) got the half dose by accident. However, reading between the lines (and what is written in the story) and given that nearly 3000 people got the half-full scheme the trial regulator required them to alter their P3 trial to accomodate that mistake in a proportional way so that they'd get workable results out of it. That's my reading of it, those with more experience in this sort of medical trial will likely have better insight.

It's very interesting, isn't it. Perhaps they will do a variety of follow up tests. If half-full is better than full-full how about half- half or third-full or nil-full etc? Can't see them holding up the initial rollout for this though. I would think that will go ahead on the basis of the most fully tested (full-full) regime.

OldKingCole said:

dixiedean said:

The politics of which area goes into which Tier is going to be the main story of the next week I feel.
The areas of growth (as opposed to raw numbers) in the virus are in the South. And Tory.
Already we are seeing lots of special pleading.

Essex County Council, heavily Tory, sought Tier 2 status.

londonpubman said:

OldKingCole said:

dixiedean said:

The politics of which area goes into which Tier is going to be the main story of the next week I feel.
The areas of growth (as opposed to raw numbers) in the virus are in the South. And Tory.
Already we are seeing lots of special pleading.

Essex County Council, heavily Tory, sought Tier 2 status.

Although numbers in London and SE have gone up, they are still somewhat lower than many other places.

Also it appears per the very latest figures that numbers are falling everywhere in England albeit at differing rates.

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

HYUFD said:

contrarian said:

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

LostPassword said:

algarkirk said:

bigjohnowls said:

Laura Pidcock
@LauraPidcock
· 1h
The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.

I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.

If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.

Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall

Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.

Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush

I thought we couldn't have a Canada?

An EU trade deal that ends free movement and replaces it with a points system and enables us to do our own trade deals and regain control of our fishing waters is effectively Canada, even if Boris concedes on state aid even Canada has had to agree some LPF arrangements with the EU to get its trade deal

kinabalu said:

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

HYUFD said:

contrarian said:

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

LostPassword said:

algarkirk said:

bigjohnowls said:

Laura Pidcock
@LauraPidcock
· 1h
The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.

I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.

If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.

Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall

Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.

Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush

I thought we couldn't have a Canada?

An EU trade deal that ends free movement and replaces it with a points system and enables us to do our own trade deals and regain control of our fishing waters is effectively Canada, even if Boris concedes on state aid even Canada has had to agree some LPF arrangements with the EU to get its trade deal

Well Nigel should be over the moon rather than sick as a parrot with that then.

Talk about your independent coastal states.

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

HYUFD said:

contrarian said:

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

LostPassword said:

algarkirk said:

bigjohnowls said:

Laura Pidcock
@LauraPidcock
· 1h
The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.

I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.

If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.

Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall

Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.

Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush

I thought we couldn't have a Canada?

An EU trade deal that ends free movement and replaces it with a points system and enables us to do our own trade deals and regain control of our fishing waters is effectively Canada, even if Boris concedes on state aid even Canada has had to agree some LPF arrangements with the EU to get its trade deal

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

HYUFD said:

contrarian said:

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

LostPassword said:

algarkirk said:

bigjohnowls said:

Laura Pidcock
@LauraPidcock
· 1h
The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.

I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.

If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.

Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall

Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.

Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush

I thought we couldn't have a Canada?

An EU trade deal that ends free movement and replaces it with a points system and enables us to do our own trade deals and regain control of our fishing waters is effectively Canada, even if Boris concedes on state aid even Canada has had to agree some LPF arrangements with the EU to get its trade deal

Well Nigel should be over the moon rather than sick as a parrot with that then.

Talk about your independent coastal states.

If the No Deal diehards refuse to even accept a Canada style FTA they can sod off to Farage as far as I am concerned and never come back!!

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

HYUFD said:

contrarian said:

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

LostPassword said:

algarkirk said:

bigjohnowls said:

Laura Pidcock
@LauraPidcock
· 1h
The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.

I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.

If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.

Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall

Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.

Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush

I thought we couldn't have a Canada?

An EU trade deal that ends free movement and replaces it with a points system and enables us to do our own trade deals and regain control of our fishing waters is effectively Canada, even if Boris concedes on state aid even Canada has had to agree some LPF arrangements with the EU to get its trade deal

Well Nigel should be over the moon rather than sick as a parrot with that then.

Talk about your independent coastal states.

If the No Deal diehards refuse to even accept a Canada style FTA they can sod off to Farage as far as I am concerned and never come back!!

Stuartinromford said:

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

HYUFD said:

contrarian said:

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

LostPassword said:

algarkirk said:

bigjohnowls said:

Laura Pidcock
@LauraPidcock
· 1h
The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.

I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.

If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.

Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall

Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.

Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush

I thought we couldn't have a Canada?

An EU trade deal that ends free movement and replaces it with a points system and enables us to do our own trade deals and regain control of our fishing waters is effectively Canada, even if Boris concedes on state aid even Canada has had to agree some LPF arrangements with the EU to get its trade deal

That sounds rational. (I suspect it won't happen like that, but it sounds rational.)

But Faragism has never been about being rational. It's been about shouting slogans. It's about pulling the debate one step further in a nationalist-populist direction than the government is prepared to go. And ultimately, it's about destruction more than creation.

Whatever deal BoJo eventually ends up with will involve compromises. (Cards on table: I'd rather that the UK were making a lot more compromises than it's likely to, to keep more and smoother access. But hey ho.) Whatever compromises are made will be roundly and loudly condemned by Nigel.

Farage will hang around, stinking out the place, as long as he wants to. I'm sure we could all write the script for an anti-Sunak rant if it were to become necessary. The idea that he'll say "That Boris has get it right, my job here is done" is for the birds.

TheScreamingEagles said:

dixiedean said:

The politics of which area goes into which Tier is going to be the main story of the next week I feel.
The areas of growth (as opposed to raw numbers) in the virus are in the South. And Tory.
Already we are seeing lots of special pleading.

The pressure/pleading from PL clubs and other sports is also going to be interesting.

I suspect we might see a situation where England's rugby union team have fans back next weekend whilst most PL clubs do not.