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Trump finally agrees that the Biden transition can begin but the Betfair market remains open – polit

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  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,425
    algarkirk said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

    SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.
    I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

    One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

    This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

    The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,364

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:


    From today’s Times

    “Emma McClarkin, of the British Beer and Pub Association, said that the new measures “unfairly” targeted pubs and would eradicate the viability of at least 90 per cent in Tiers 2 and 3. “If these tighter tier restrictions are forced upon us, far more government financial support will be needed to avoid the resulting carnage.”

    The Institute of Economic Affairs, the think tank, said that there was “no scientific basis” for insisting that drinks should be served with food. Christopher Snowdon, its head of lifestyle economics, said that Tier 2 restrictions were “a death sentence for countless pubs and restaurants”.

    Yep - sheer malice from the government.

    The deliberate destruction of 90% of a sector.

    No polite words to describe what I think of this government.

    No, I can't see why having a meal with your drink makes it safer.

    Is there an anti-booze sentiment in play maybe? The idea that people just drinking get pissed, forget there's a pandemic on and start horsing around?
    Fewer people can eat (or afford to buy and waste) a pub meal in half a dozen establishments in an evening than can have a drink or two in the same number of establishments. People moving from venue to venue are a much bigger risk than those who stay in one place, both in terms of becoming infected and the number of people they infect.
    There is a distinct anti pub sentiment present in the government, a sort of 'ooh no we can't allow these ordinary working class people have a bit of pleasure' outlook.

    As I posted on here yesterday, it is the little independent businesses which will suffer, big chains such as Wetherspoons and Greene King will be able to open as typically they serve food.

    But those who might just want a few beers won't be able to go, and instead will socialise in non COVID secure environments ie their houses.

    Boris and Hancock just don't get this!
    Says something about Boris & Hancock of course!

    There are several pubs in this area, and most, if not all, serve food. If I were going for a meals the Greene King place would be my last choice.
    Indeed - around here the pubs that actually try with the beer all serve food that is more than microwave nuked burgers-in-a-bag.

    In the City of London, you get a few of the old style no-food-booze-only, but they were getting pretty rare, even before this.
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:


    From today’s Times

    “Emma McClarkin, of the British Beer and Pub Association, said that the new measures “unfairly” targeted pubs and would eradicate the viability of at least 90 per cent in Tiers 2 and 3. “If these tighter tier restrictions are forced upon us, far more government financial support will be needed to avoid the resulting carnage.”

    The Institute of Economic Affairs, the think tank, said that there was “no scientific basis” for insisting that drinks should be served with food. Christopher Snowdon, its head of lifestyle economics, said that Tier 2 restrictions were “a death sentence for countless pubs and restaurants”.

    Yep - sheer malice from the government.

    The deliberate destruction of 90% of a sector.

    No polite words to describe what I think of this government.

    No, I can't see why having a meal with your drink makes it safer.

    Is there an anti-booze sentiment in play maybe? The idea that people just drinking get pissed, forget there's a pandemic on and start horsing around?
    There is a fair bit of academic study on the subject, IIRC.

    That cultures where food is always taken with alcohol are more... organised... in their social behaviour when alcohol is involved is generally true.

    What is disputed is that *adding food* into the mix in a culture changes it that much.

    i.e. a bowl of chips doesn't turn the UK vertical drinking establishment into an Italian cafe.
    Yes, some pronounced cultural differences. I'd like to say I'm more in tune with the continental food-based civilized drinking vibe but I'm afraid I'm not. It's rather the opposite. I dislike having just one or two drinks because for me the point of alcohol is to get a buzz on, so it's three as a minimum. Food detracts from the buzz. It lines your stomach and mutes it. For me eating and drinking are very separate experiences. If I'm eating I don't want any booze at all and if I'm boozing I don't want to eat. You only really get the buzz, I find, on an empty stomach. But each to his or her own of course and I certainly would not recommend my approach. My relationship with alcohol, while under control these days, is not ideal.
    There is no requirement to eat the meal, just to order it. Those Biden winnings might come in use!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Closing date for this government contract tomorrow.

    Lateral Flow Technology Testing Solutions
    https://www.contractsfinder.service.gov.uk/Notice/a60686eb-bb5e-48ac-b612-bb6a7b5415a7
    Value of contract

    Up to £911,542,857

    Lateral flow tests are used for the rapid (typically 10-30 minutes) detection of a coronavirus antigen.
    The test strip itself is composed of a nitrocellulose membrane, retained within typically a plastic housing with a window at one end with a sample pad for the addition of the sample and a window at the other end showing a visual positive or negative result dependant on the presence of the virus.

    The Department of Health & Social Care (DHSC) has a requirement for the provision of a volume order of Lateral flow test across up to a 4 month duration...
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    L4%K update
    Luqman Khan Power concedes nothing without Demand
    @luqmankhan555
    Allegedly Members of Leicester West meeting agreed last night that the whip should be restored to Corbyn without delay. The only member who spoke against the motion was Leicester West MP Liz Kendall.
  • Carnyx said:

    Theuniondivvie invariably indicates that those who are either English or not living in Scotland are unable to comment on anything relating to Scotland.

    And yet here you are, 'able' to comment.
    Even if I had the power to stop you I wouldn't, I just believe the really stupid and ill informed ones should either be ignored or have the piss ripped out of them according to taste and which day of the week it is.
    Perhaps [edit] even more to the point, there is a major question about the reliability of the UK media on Scottish politics. As you and I have been discussing today. And in turn on the quality of information on which PBers can depend.
    Nowadays I tend to wearily think that folk, even relatively smart ones, believe what they want to believe.
    Eg the Andra Neil view is fairly prevalent, that is the London centric liberal media give the SNP a free ride 'cos they're blinded by Nippy's APPARENT competence, the Scotch media give them a free ride cos they're a bit shit. My spirit quails at challenging that level of bad take.
    You're completely right. And we tend to surround ourselves, intentionally or otherwise, with people and information sources that reinforce our beliefs. The only daft thing in your statement is the implicit assumption that this isn't true of you and those of your persuasion, who are apparently exempt? Perhaps that wasn't what you meant - if so, apologies.
    Apology accepted.
  • I see the the Yoons in an effort to distract themselves from rending their House of Bruar garments and screeching in anguish at why the stupid voters don't hate Nippy, Nipoleon, Jimmy Krankie etc as much as they do, are turning to Blackford for relief. Well done him for providing an important social service in these trying times.

    As an Englishman living in Edinburgh I think Blackford's behaviour raises legitimate questions about what the SNPs much vaunted civic nationalism will look like in practice.

    Your trivializing the situation does nothing to reassure me.
    Nats cant help trivialising. Nationalism always is a simplistic and prejudiced answer to complex questions.
    Brexit => Scexit ;)
    Scexit => Brussels vassalage ;)
    Better than serfdom under your favoured overlords...
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589

    Carnyx said:

    Theuniondivvie invariably indicates that those who are either English or not living in Scotland are unable to comment on anything relating to Scotland.

    And yet here you are, 'able' to comment.
    Even if I had the power to stop you I wouldn't, I just believe the really stupid and ill informed ones should either be ignored or have the piss ripped out of them according to taste and which day of the week it is.
    Perhaps [edit] even more to the point, there is a major question about the reliability of the UK media on Scottish politics. As you and I have been discussing today. And in turn on the quality of information on which PBers can depend.
    Nowadays I tend to wearily think that folk, even relatively smart ones, believe what they want to believe.
    Eg the Andra Neil view is fairly prevalent, that is the London centric liberal media give the SNP a free ride 'cos they're blinded by Nippy's APPARENT competence, the Scotch media give them a free ride cos they're a bit shit. My spirit quails at challenging that level of bad take.
    You're completely right. And we tend to surround ourselves, intentionally or otherwise, with people and information sources that reinforce our beliefs. The only daft thing in your statement is the implicit assumption that this isn't true of you and those of your persuasion, who are apparently exempt? Perhaps that wasn't what you meant - if so, apologies.
    I don't think that's what he's getting at. Even nats don't especially like the cybernats.

    However, it is absolutely true that the National media often send genuinely unqualified reporters to cover Scottish affairs. There are a couple that take it seriously enough (The Times and the Sun both have very strongly anti-SNP prejudices but they at least have the decency to have proper Scotland teams), but you only need to watch one of the FM's press conferences to see that the local papers are well prepared and ask genuinely difficult questions, while the nationals (with the noted exceptions) ask something mad and silly from an underprepares North of England correspondent that gets easily batted away.
  • OnboardG1 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Theuniondivvie invariably indicates that those who are either English or not living in Scotland are unable to comment on anything relating to Scotland.

    And yet here you are, 'able' to comment.
    Even if I had the power to stop you I wouldn't, I just believe the really stupid and ill informed ones should either be ignored or have the piss ripped out of them according to taste and which day of the week it is.
    Perhaps [edit] even more to the point, there is a major question about the reliability of the UK media on Scottish politics. As you and I have been discussing today. And in turn on the quality of information on which PBers can depend.
    Nowadays I tend to wearily think that folk, even relatively smart ones, believe what they want to believe.
    Eg the Andra Neil view is fairly prevalent, that is the London centric liberal media give the SNP a free ride 'cos they're blinded by Nippy's APPARENT competence, the Scotch media give them a free ride cos they're a bit shit. My spirit quails at challenging that level of bad take.
    You're completely right. And we tend to surround ourselves, intentionally or otherwise, with people and information sources that reinforce our beliefs. The only daft thing in your statement is the implicit assumption that this isn't true of you and those of your persuasion, who are apparently exempt? Perhaps that wasn't what you meant - if so, apologies.
    I don't think that's what he's getting at. Even nats don't especially like the cybernats.

    However, it is absolutely true that the National media often send genuinely unqualified reporters to cover Scottish affairs. There are a couple that take it seriously enough (The Times and the Sun both have very strongly anti-SNP prejudices but they at least have the decency to have proper Scotland teams), but you only need to watch one of the FM's press conferences to see that the local papers are well prepared and ask genuinely difficult questions, while the nationals (with the noted exceptions) ask something mad and silly from an underprepares North of England correspondent that gets easily batted away.
    Didn't the Sun back the SNP in the 2015 election?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,222

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:


    From today’s Times

    “Emma McClarkin, of the British Beer and Pub Association, said that the new measures “unfairly” targeted pubs and would eradicate the viability of at least 90 per cent in Tiers 2 and 3. “If these tighter tier restrictions are forced upon us, far more government financial support will be needed to avoid the resulting carnage.”

    The Institute of Economic Affairs, the think tank, said that there was “no scientific basis” for insisting that drinks should be served with food. Christopher Snowdon, its head of lifestyle economics, said that Tier 2 restrictions were “a death sentence for countless pubs and restaurants”.

    Yep - sheer malice from the government.

    The deliberate destruction of 90% of a sector.

    No polite words to describe what I think of this government.

    No, I can't see why having a meal with your drink makes it safer.

    Is there an anti-booze sentiment in play maybe? The idea that people just drinking get pissed, forget there's a pandemic on and start horsing around?
    There is a fair bit of academic study on the subject, IIRC.

    That cultures where food is always taken with alcohol are more... organised... in their social behaviour when alcohol is involved is generally true.

    What is disputed is that *adding food* into the mix in a culture changes it that much.

    i.e. a bowl of chips doesn't turn the UK vertical drinking establishment into an Italian cafe.
    Yes, some pronounced cultural differences. I'd like to say I'm more in tune with the continental food-based civilized drinking vibe but I'm afraid I'm not. It's rather the opposite. I dislike having just one or two drinks because for me the point of alcohol is to get a buzz on, so it's three as a minimum. Food detracts from the buzz. It lines your stomach and mutes it. For me eating and drinking are very separate experiences. If I'm eating I don't want any booze at all and if I'm boozing I don't want to eat. You only really get the buzz, I find, on an empty stomach. But each to his or her own of course and I certainly would not recommend my approach. My relationship with alcohol, while under control these days, is not ideal.
    There is no requirement to eat the meal, just to order it. Those Biden winnings might come in use!
    :smile: - But I can't bear waste so that won't work either.
  • Roy_G_Biv said:

    Carnyx said:

    I see the the Yoons in an effort to distract themselves from rending their House of Bruar garments and screeching in anguish at why the stupid voters don't hate Nippy, Nipoleon, Jimmy Krankie etc as much as they do, are turning to Blackford for relief. Well done him for providing an important social service in these trying times.

    As an Englishman living in Edinburgh I think Blackford's behaviour raises legitimate questions about what the SNPs much vaunted civic nationalism will look like in practice.

    Your trivializing the situation does nothing to reassure me.
    Nats cant help trivialising. Nationalism always is a simplistic and prejudiced answer to complex questions.
    YOu're assuming that it's about the person being English rather than being seen to have breached the rules (rightly or wrongly). That's a remarkably nationalistic viewpoint.

    Funny how Blackford didn't find someone from the Central Belt to chastise for breaking the rules. Decided to go after someone from England (who hadn't broken the rules). Let's face it, we all know what he's about, don't we?
    If you're going to hang the charge of racism around his neck, you'll need better evidence than that.
    I think the man is a chump, and the tweet was a terrible idea. But that doesn't make him a racist by a long, long chalk.
    It's pathological and irrational hatred of the English, voiced at every opportunity to encourage those feelings in others for political gain. If English people were an ethnic minority, as opposed to just a minority of those living in Scotland, it would be pretty easy to put a label on.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589
    edited November 2020
    From the reading of the stories about AZ's accidental discovery of their half-dose scheme, it reads that 500 people in the Phase 2 trial element (i.e the first people to get it in any sort of numbers for initial immune response and safety) got the half dose by accident. However, reading between the lines (and what is written in the story) and given that nearly 3000 people got the half-full scheme the trial regulator required them to alter their P3 trial to accomodate that mistake in a proportional way so that they'd get workable results out of it. That's my reading of it, those with more experience in this sort of medical trial will likely have better insight.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    Italian PM telling folk not to go skiing this winter.
    An 11bn euro a year industry. Any chance our government will do likewise?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,883
    OnboardG1 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Theuniondivvie invariably indicates that those who are either English or not living in Scotland are unable to comment on anything relating to Scotland.

    And yet here you are, 'able' to comment.
    Even if I had the power to stop you I wouldn't, I just believe the really stupid and ill informed ones should either be ignored or have the piss ripped out of them according to taste and which day of the week it is.
    Perhaps [edit] even more to the point, there is a major question about the reliability of the UK media on Scottish politics. As you and I have been discussing today. And in turn on the quality of information on which PBers can depend.
    Nowadays I tend to wearily think that folk, even relatively smart ones, believe what they want to believe.
    Eg the Andra Neil view is fairly prevalent, that is the London centric liberal media give the SNP a free ride 'cos they're blinded by Nippy's APPARENT competence, the Scotch media give them a free ride cos they're a bit shit. My spirit quails at challenging that level of bad take.
    You're completely right. And we tend to surround ourselves, intentionally or otherwise, with people and information sources that reinforce our beliefs. The only daft thing in your statement is the implicit assumption that this isn't true of you and those of your persuasion, who are apparently exempt? Perhaps that wasn't what you meant - if so, apologies.
    I don't think that's what he's getting at. Even nats don't especially like the cybernats.

    However, it is absolutely true that the National media often send genuinely unqualified reporters to cover Scottish affairs. There are a couple that take it seriously enough (The Times and the Sun both have very strongly anti-SNP prejudices but they at least have the decency to have proper Scotland teams), but you only need to watch one of the FM's press conferences to see that the local papers are well prepared and ask genuinely difficult questions, while the nationals (with the noted exceptions) ask something mad and silly from an underprepares North of England correspondent that gets easily batted away.
    You mean the UK media not the national media ... but very interesting comment. You might want to add the Graun to the Times and Sun - also with a regular team of 2 and rather anti SNP (depending who is doing the writing, noticeably, to the degree than one can guess who is on today even if one starts in the middle).
  • RobD said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Who is she?
    A member of a party within a party she aspired to lead.
  • novanova Posts: 692
    edited November 2020


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    "Forced to walk out" my a**e.

    That said, over the last couple of months I've come round to the view that the best thing would be for them to walk out and just keep going. There's no point in trying any longer to work with people whose whole purpose seems to be to do everything possible to undermine Keir Starmer's leadership.
    You see the constant justification of it as a response to the likes of Peter Mandelson or Ian Austin, when the reality is that most Labour members were out knocking on doors while Corbyn was leader, and will do so for Starmer. To pretend that the "worst" actions of your opponents gives you carte blanche to act in a similarly destructive manner is ridiculous. The blinkered sense of self-righteousness is simply astonishing.

    Still, there is a lighter side. Just last week many of the Corbyn "outriders" even turned on Corbyn himself, as apparently they could only "help" him if he put a bit more effort into helping himself.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,883

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Carnyx said:

    I see the the Yoons in an effort to distract themselves from rending their House of Bruar garments and screeching in anguish at why the stupid voters don't hate Nippy, Nipoleon, Jimmy Krankie etc as much as they do, are turning to Blackford for relief. Well done him for providing an important social service in these trying times.

    As an Englishman living in Edinburgh I think Blackford's behaviour raises legitimate questions about what the SNPs much vaunted civic nationalism will look like in practice.

    Your trivializing the situation does nothing to reassure me.
    Nats cant help trivialising. Nationalism always is a simplistic and prejudiced answer to complex questions.
    YOu're assuming that it's about the person being English rather than being seen to have breached the rules (rightly or wrongly). That's a remarkably nationalistic viewpoint.

    Funny how Blackford didn't find someone from the Central Belt to chastise for breaking the rules. Decided to go after someone from England (who hadn't broken the rules). Let's face it, we all know what he's about, don't we?
    If you're going to hang the charge of racism around his neck, you'll need better evidence than that.
    I think the man is a chump, and the tweet was a terrible idea. But that doesn't make him a racist by a long, long chalk.
    It's pathological and irrational hatred of the English, voiced at every opportunity to encourage those feelings in others for political gain. If English people were an ethnic minority, as opposed to just a minority of those living in Scotland, it would be pretty easy to put a label on.
    Funny how there are so many English in the SNP and in the Yes movement - who have set up their own group precisely to refute such assumptions.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,133

    https://twitter.com/TommyCorbyn/status/1330591633545551875?s=20

    Nice one. Except.. Rihanna has never played at Glastonbury.

    Just a pity last year he won even fewer Labour seats than Michael Foot
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Theuniondivvie invariably indicates that those who are either English or not living in Scotland are unable to comment on anything relating to Scotland.

    And yet here you are, 'able' to comment.
    Even if I had the power to stop you I wouldn't, I just believe the really stupid and ill informed ones should either be ignored or have the piss ripped out of them according to taste and which day of the week it is.
    Perhaps [edit] even more to the point, there is a major question about the reliability of the UK media on Scottish politics. As you and I have been discussing today. And in turn on the quality of information on which PBers can depend.
    Nowadays I tend to wearily think that folk, even relatively smart ones, believe what they want to believe.
    Eg the Andra Neil view is fairly prevalent, that is the London centric liberal media give the SNP a free ride 'cos they're blinded by Nippy's APPARENT competence, the Scotch media give them a free ride cos they're a bit shit. My spirit quails at challenging that level of bad take.
    You're completely right. And we tend to surround ourselves, intentionally or otherwise, with people and information sources that reinforce our beliefs. The only daft thing in your statement is the implicit assumption that this isn't true of you and those of your persuasion, who are apparently exempt? Perhaps that wasn't what you meant - if so, apologies.
    I don't think that's what he's getting at. Even nats don't especially like the cybernats.

    However, it is absolutely true that the National media often send genuinely unqualified reporters to cover Scottish affairs. There are a couple that take it seriously enough (The Times and the Sun both have very strongly anti-SNP prejudices but they at least have the decency to have proper Scotland teams), but you only need to watch one of the FM's press conferences to see that the local papers are well prepared and ask genuinely difficult questions, while the nationals (with the noted exceptions) ask something mad and silly from an underprepares North of England correspondent that gets easily batted away.
    Didn't the Sun back the SNP in the 2015 election?
    Tactical endorsement to fit the "OMG THE SCOTS ARE HOLDING LABOUR HOSTAGE" strategy. That did not sit well with me.
  • RobD said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Who is she?
    She is National Secretary of The People’s Assembly, according to her twitters.
  • Crabbie said:



    Ha - it pretty much was. George Street after about 8pm on Friday and Saturday was a place loosing control....

    The comic touch I liked, was that a pub I used to drink in had no trouble. Metal heads, goths and bikers. Very now and then, one of the gelled hair types would look in the door, and very obviously think "not here" and go away again......

    I used to drink in the Gloc...
    Great jukebox


    Used to work there, summer/autumn 2001.

    No more, but at least was still being used as a pub last time I was in Oxford.
    I was drinking there mid- to late-90s. Popped in for a pint seven (?) years ago and there were a few faces I recognised (Tetley Steve I think) and it still had an alternative jukebox but was back more recently and it had sadly been redeveloped.

    Still, nostalgia ain’t what it used to be.

  • HYUFD said:

    https://twitter.com/TommyCorbyn/status/1330591633545551875?s=20

    Nice one. Except.. Rihanna has never played at Glastonbury.

    Just a pity last year he won even fewer Labour seats than Michael Foot
    It was a summer romance. They don't usually end well.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,480
    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Carnyx said:

    I see the the Yoons in an effort to distract themselves from rending their House of Bruar garments and screeching in anguish at why the stupid voters don't hate Nippy, Nipoleon, Jimmy Krankie etc as much as they do, are turning to Blackford for relief. Well done him for providing an important social service in these trying times.

    As an Englishman living in Edinburgh I think Blackford's behaviour raises legitimate questions about what the SNPs much vaunted civic nationalism will look like in practice.

    Your trivializing the situation does nothing to reassure me.
    Nats cant help trivialising. Nationalism always is a simplistic and prejudiced answer to complex questions.
    YOu're assuming that it's about the person being English rather than being seen to have breached the rules (rightly or wrongly). That's a remarkably nationalistic viewpoint.

    Funny how Blackford didn't find someone from the Central Belt to chastise for breaking the rules. Decided to go after someone from England (who hadn't broken the rules). Let's face it, we all know what he's about, don't we?
    If you're going to hang the charge of racism around his neck, you'll need better evidence than that.
    I think the man is a chump, and the tweet was a terrible idea. But that doesn't make him a racist by a long, long chalk.
    It's pathological and irrational hatred of the English, voiced at every opportunity to encourage those feelings in others for political gain. If English people were an ethnic minority, as opposed to just a minority of those living in Scotland, it would be pretty easy to put a label on.
    Funny how there are so many English in the SNP and in the Yes movement - who have set up their own group precisely to refute such assumptions.
    Then we must also absolve Trump of stirring up racism - he has a large following of very enthusiastic black supporters.
  • kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Cyclefree said:


    From today’s Times

    “Emma McClarkin, of the British Beer and Pub Association, said that the new measures “unfairly” targeted pubs and would eradicate the viability of at least 90 per cent in Tiers 2 and 3. “If these tighter tier restrictions are forced upon us, far more government financial support will be needed to avoid the resulting carnage.”

    The Institute of Economic Affairs, the think tank, said that there was “no scientific basis” for insisting that drinks should be served with food. Christopher Snowdon, its head of lifestyle economics, said that Tier 2 restrictions were “a death sentence for countless pubs and restaurants”.

    Yep - sheer malice from the government.

    The deliberate destruction of 90% of a sector.

    No polite words to describe what I think of this government.

    No, I can't see why having a meal with your drink makes it safer.

    Is there an anti-booze sentiment in play maybe? The idea that people just drinking get pissed, forget there's a pandemic on and start horsing around?
    There is a fair bit of academic study on the subject, IIRC.

    That cultures where food is always taken with alcohol are more... organised... in their social behaviour when alcohol is involved is generally true.

    What is disputed is that *adding food* into the mix in a culture changes it that much.

    i.e. a bowl of chips doesn't turn the UK vertical drinking establishment into an Italian cafe.
    Yes, some pronounced cultural differences. I'd like to say I'm more in tune with the continental food-based civilized drinking vibe but I'm afraid I'm not. It's rather the opposite. I dislike having just one or two drinks because for me the point of alcohol is to get a buzz on, so it's three as a minimum. Food detracts from the buzz. It lines your stomach and mutes it. For me eating and drinking are very separate experiences. If I'm eating I don't want any booze at all and if I'm boozing I don't want to eat. You only really get the buzz, I find, on an empty stomach. But each to his or her own of course and I certainly would not recommend my approach. My relationship with alcohol, while under control these days, is not ideal.
    There is no requirement to eat the meal, just to order it. Those Biden winnings might come in use!
    Coronavirus will be a distant memory by the time Betfair pay up!

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,222

    algarkirk said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

    SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.
    I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

    One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

    This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

    The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.
    If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.
  • dixiedean said:

    Italian PM telling folk not to go skiing this winter.
    An 11bn euro a year industry. Any chance our government will do likewise?

    Bloody better. Arguably last winter's half term was when the virus was seeded back into this country on a large scale.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Watching politicians scramble to avoid 'Tier three-ing' their constituents is quite funny. And encouraging.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589
    Carnyx said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Theuniondivvie invariably indicates that those who are either English or not living in Scotland are unable to comment on anything relating to Scotland.

    And yet here you are, 'able' to comment.
    Even if I had the power to stop you I wouldn't, I just believe the really stupid and ill informed ones should either be ignored or have the piss ripped out of them according to taste and which day of the week it is.
    Perhaps [edit] even more to the point, there is a major question about the reliability of the UK media on Scottish politics. As you and I have been discussing today. And in turn on the quality of information on which PBers can depend.
    Nowadays I tend to wearily think that folk, even relatively smart ones, believe what they want to believe.
    Eg the Andra Neil view is fairly prevalent, that is the London centric liberal media give the SNP a free ride 'cos they're blinded by Nippy's APPARENT competence, the Scotch media give them a free ride cos they're a bit shit. My spirit quails at challenging that level of bad take.
    You're completely right. And we tend to surround ourselves, intentionally or otherwise, with people and information sources that reinforce our beliefs. The only daft thing in your statement is the implicit assumption that this isn't true of you and those of your persuasion, who are apparently exempt? Perhaps that wasn't what you meant - if so, apologies.
    I don't think that's what he's getting at. Even nats don't especially like the cybernats.

    However, it is absolutely true that the National media often send genuinely unqualified reporters to cover Scottish affairs. There are a couple that take it seriously enough (The Times and the Sun both have very strongly anti-SNP prejudices but they at least have the decency to have proper Scotland teams), but you only need to watch one of the FM's press conferences to see that the local papers are well prepared and ask genuinely difficult questions, while the nationals (with the noted exceptions) ask something mad and silly from an underprepares North of England correspondent that gets easily batted away.
    You mean the UK media not the national media ... but very interesting comment. You might want to add the Graun to the Times and Sun - also with a regular team of 2 and rather anti SNP (depending who is doing the writing, noticeably, to the degree than one can guess who is on today even if one starts in the middle).
    Yes fair enough, although the semantics aren't enormously important. I didn't know the Graun had a dedicated Scotland team. They seem to ignore Scottish politics for the most part. Then again, some of the local media can be pretty terrible too. The Scotsman has gone badly downhill since my Grandmother used to get it on the doorstep every morning. The Herald is okay, as is the P&J (which, while parochial as fuck, has good journalists). The Edinburgh Evening news has been obsessed with potholes and nothing else for about twenty years (I have never seen such a NIMBY paper). STV consistently impresses me with their questioning and the BBC Scotland team are still reasonable enough. The Record actually is probably one of the best Scottish papers right now, along with the various local news sites. They usually ask the question that's difficult and people actually want to know the answer to and although they're obviously pro-Labour and anti-SNP they mostly avoid the hysteria of the UK press and the bitchy NIMBYness of The Evening News and the Scotsman.
  • The Pidcock flounce - a marvellous thing. Pity that they won't flounce all the way off to start Socialist Unity or whatever.
  • After you, Comrade.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,133
    edited November 2020
    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

    SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.
    I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

    One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

    This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

    The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.
    If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.
    Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

    He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall, that would be enough to make him PM though to get a majority without SNP support he would also need to regain Labour's Scottish seats.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,222
    OnboardG1 said:

    From the reading of the stories about AZ's accidental discovery of their half-dose scheme, it reads that 500 people in the Phase 2 trial element (i.e the first people to get it in any sort of numbers for initial immune response and safety) got the half dose by accident. However, reading between the lines (and what is written in the story) and given that nearly 3000 people got the half-full scheme the trial regulator required them to alter their P3 trial to accomodate that mistake in a proportional way so that they'd get workable results out of it. That's my reading of it, those with more experience in this sort of medical trial will likely have better insight.

    It's very interesting, isn't it. Perhaps they will do a variety of follow up tests. If half-full is better than full-full how about half- half or third-full or nil-full etc? Can't see them holding up the initial rollout for this though. I would think that will go ahead on the basis of the most fully tested (full-full) regime.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

    SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.
    I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

    One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

    This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

    The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.
    If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.
    Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

    He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall
    Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

    Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.
  • The Pidcock flounce - a marvellous thing. Pity that they won't flounce all the way off to start Socialist Unity or whatever.

    Chris 'Derby' Williamson is working on it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,133
    edited November 2020

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

    SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.
    I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

    One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

    This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

    The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.
    If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.
    Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

    He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall
    Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

    Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.
    Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,934
    kinabalu said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    From the reading of the stories about AZ's accidental discovery of their half-dose scheme, it reads that 500 people in the Phase 2 trial element (i.e the first people to get it in any sort of numbers for initial immune response and safety) got the half dose by accident. However, reading between the lines (and what is written in the story) and given that nearly 3000 people got the half-full scheme the trial regulator required them to alter their P3 trial to accomodate that mistake in a proportional way so that they'd get workable results out of it. That's my reading of it, those with more experience in this sort of medical trial will likely have better insight.

    It's very interesting, isn't it. Perhaps they will do a variety of follow up tests. If half-full is better than full-full how about half- half or third-full or nil-full etc? Can't see them holding up the initial rollout for this though. I would think that will go ahead on the basis of the most fully tested (full-full) regime.
    90% is good enough, surely?
  • RobD said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Who is she?
    She is National Secretary of The People’s Assembly, according to her twitters.
    Also, she isn't a transphobe. According to Richard Burgon (whose deputy leadership campaign she ran)
    https://divamag.co.uk/2020/02/21/richard-burgon-denies-laura-pidcock-is-transphobic/
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,752
    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Carnyx said:

    I see the the Yoons in an effort to distract themselves from rending their House of Bruar garments and screeching in anguish at why the stupid voters don't hate Nippy, Nipoleon, Jimmy Krankie etc as much as they do, are turning to Blackford for relief. Well done him for providing an important social service in these trying times.

    As an Englishman living in Edinburgh I think Blackford's behaviour raises legitimate questions about what the SNPs much vaunted civic nationalism will look like in practice.

    Your trivializing the situation does nothing to reassure me.
    Nats cant help trivialising. Nationalism always is a simplistic and prejudiced answer to complex questions.
    YOu're assuming that it's about the person being English rather than being seen to have breached the rules (rightly or wrongly). That's a remarkably nationalistic viewpoint.

    Funny how Blackford didn't find someone from the Central Belt to chastise for breaking the rules. Decided to go after someone from England (who hadn't broken the rules). Let's face it, we all know what he's about, don't we?
    If you're going to hang the charge of racism around his neck, you'll need better evidence than that.
    I think the man is a chump, and the tweet was a terrible idea. But that doesn't make him a racist by a long, long chalk.
    It's pathological and irrational hatred of the English, voiced at every opportunity to encourage those feelings in others for political gain. If English people were an ethnic minority, as opposed to just a minority of those living in Scotland, it would be pretty easy to put a label on.
    Funny how there are so many English in the SNP and in the Yes movement - who have set up their own group precisely to refute such assumptions.
    I'm sure Carnyx will remember the very ugly spate of social media claims about how "the English" were responsible for infecting Scotland with Covid. Which was capped by the Bampots at the border with their "English Not Welcome" signs. Rightly, this was condemned by all responsible politicians in Scotland. This is why Blackford's tweet was so disgraceful and utterly irresponsible.
  • OnboardG1OnboardG1 Posts: 1,589
    kinabalu said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    From the reading of the stories about AZ's accidental discovery of their half-dose scheme, it reads that 500 people in the Phase 2 trial element (i.e the first people to get it in any sort of numbers for initial immune response and safety) got the half dose by accident. However, reading between the lines (and what is written in the story) and given that nearly 3000 people got the half-full scheme the trial regulator required them to alter their P3 trial to accomodate that mistake in a proportional way so that they'd get workable results out of it. That's my reading of it, those with more experience in this sort of medical trial will likely have better insight.

    It's very interesting, isn't it. Perhaps they will do a variety of follow up tests. If half-full is better than full-full how about half- half or third-full or nil-full etc? Can't see them holding up the initial rollout for this though. I would think that will go ahead on the basis of the most fully tested (full-full) regime.
    I suspect they’ll apply for the half-full scheme. They seem pretty confident they have the statistical significance to go to the regulators which implies that dosage level is better than the full dose within their current confidence interval. It also means more people can get vaccinated. Although I suspect the MHRA might ask to wait for the final readout before authorising.
  • kinabalu said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    From the reading of the stories about AZ's accidental discovery of their half-dose scheme, it reads that 500 people in the Phase 2 trial element (i.e the first people to get it in any sort of numbers for initial immune response and safety) got the half dose by accident. However, reading between the lines (and what is written in the story) and given that nearly 3000 people got the half-full scheme the trial regulator required them to alter their P3 trial to accomodate that mistake in a proportional way so that they'd get workable results out of it. That's my reading of it, those with more experience in this sort of medical trial will likely have better insight.

    It's very interesting, isn't it. Perhaps they will do a variety of follow up tests. If half-full is better than full-full how about half- half or third-full or nil-full etc? Can't see them holding up the initial rollout for this though. I would think that will go ahead on the basis of the most fully tested (full-full) regime.
    If they're going to have a half-full option, they better bloody have a half-empty one too.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

    SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.
    I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

    One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

    This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

    The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.
    If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.
    Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

    He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall
    Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

    Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.
    Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush
    You don’t think Farage will find more specious grievances with which to inflame the lumpen? There's the ongoing channel fiasco for a start and that's before het gets his teeth into Princess Nut Nut's green agenda.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    After you, Comrade.
    For some reason I was reminded of this when I used to teach about Jenner!


  • novanova Posts: 692

    The Pidcock flounce - a marvellous thing. Pity that they won't flounce all the way off to start Socialist Unity or whatever.

    Chris 'Derby' Williamson is working on it.
    If there was a breakaway, I can see it going the way of UKIP, where the most senior people from a few years ago have now formed about a dozen different parties.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,883
    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

    SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.
    I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

    One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

    This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

    The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.
    If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.
    Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

    He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall
    Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

    Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.
    Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush
    You don’t think Farage will find more specious grievances with which to inflame the lumpen? There's the ongoing channel fiasco for a start and that's before het gets his teeth into Princess Nut Nut's green agenda.
    Nut Nuts, not Nut Nut. In the interests of PB pedantry.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,222
    edited November 2020
    RobD said:

    kinabalu said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    From the reading of the stories about AZ's accidental discovery of their half-dose scheme, it reads that 500 people in the Phase 2 trial element (i.e the first people to get it in any sort of numbers for initial immune response and safety) got the half dose by accident. However, reading between the lines (and what is written in the story) and given that nearly 3000 people got the half-full scheme the trial regulator required them to alter their P3 trial to accomodate that mistake in a proportional way so that they'd get workable results out of it. That's my reading of it, those with more experience in this sort of medical trial will likely have better insight.

    It's very interesting, isn't it. Perhaps they will do a variety of follow up tests. If half-full is better than full-full how about half- half or third-full or nil-full etc? Can't see them holding up the initial rollout for this though. I would think that will go ahead on the basis of the most fully tested (full-full) regime.
    90% is good enough, surely?
    Massively - but so is anything above 60%. And given the bigger data set was the full/full regime I'm saying that I think they will do the initial rollout like that even though it came in at the lower efficacy. Do you not think?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    kinabalu said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    From the reading of the stories about AZ's accidental discovery of their half-dose scheme, it reads that 500 people in the Phase 2 trial element (i.e the first people to get it in any sort of numbers for initial immune response and safety) got the half dose by accident. However, reading between the lines (and what is written in the story) and given that nearly 3000 people got the half-full scheme the trial regulator required them to alter their P3 trial to accomodate that mistake in a proportional way so that they'd get workable results out of it. That's my reading of it, those with more experience in this sort of medical trial will likely have better insight.

    It's very interesting, isn't it. Perhaps they will do a variety of follow up tests. If half-full is better than full-full how about half- half or third-full or nil-full etc? Can't see them holding up the initial rollout for this though. I would think that will go ahead on the basis of the most fully tested (full-full) regime.
    Yes - typical flu vaccines are often not much more than 60% eeffective but they still do a good job.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

    SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.
    I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

    One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

    This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

    The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.
    If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.
    Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

    He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall
    Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

    Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.
    Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush
    I am starting to think you have a point.

    Away from the grievance of Brexit, he is far less sure of himself politically. He is groping.

    I think Reform will happen, but might be better off without him.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Carnyx said:

    I see the the Yoons in an effort to distract themselves from rending their House of Bruar garments and screeching in anguish at why the stupid voters don't hate Nippy, Nipoleon, Jimmy Krankie etc as much as they do, are turning to Blackford for relief. Well done him for providing an important social service in these trying times.

    As an Englishman living in Edinburgh I think Blackford's behaviour raises legitimate questions about what the SNPs much vaunted civic nationalism will look like in practice.

    Your trivializing the situation does nothing to reassure me.
    Nats cant help trivialising. Nationalism always is a simplistic and prejudiced answer to complex questions.
    YOu're assuming that it's about the person being English rather than being seen to have breached the rules (rightly or wrongly). That's a remarkably nationalistic viewpoint.

    Funny how Blackford didn't find someone from the Central Belt to chastise for breaking the rules. Decided to go after someone from England (who hadn't broken the rules). Let's face it, we all know what he's about, don't we?
    If you're going to hang the charge of racism around his neck, you'll need better evidence than that.
    I think the man is a chump, and the tweet was a terrible idea. But that doesn't make him a racist by a long, long chalk.
    It's pathological and irrational hatred of the English, voiced at every opportunity to encourage those feelings in others for political gain. If English people were an ethnic minority, as opposed to just a minority of those living in Scotland, it would be pretty easy to put a label on.
    Funny how there are so many English in the SNP and in the Yes movement - who have set up their own group precisely to refute such assumptions.
    I'm sure Carnyx will remember the very ugly spate of social media claims about how "the English" were responsible for infecting Scotland with Covid. Which was capped by the Bampots at the border with their "English Not Welcome" signs. Rightly, this was condemned by all responsible politicians in Scotland. This is why Blackford's tweet was so disgraceful and utterly irresponsible.
    The mask - which I have no doubt he wears at all times - slipped.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,222
    OnboardG1 said:

    kinabalu said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    From the reading of the stories about AZ's accidental discovery of their half-dose scheme, it reads that 500 people in the Phase 2 trial element (i.e the first people to get it in any sort of numbers for initial immune response and safety) got the half dose by accident. However, reading between the lines (and what is written in the story) and given that nearly 3000 people got the half-full scheme the trial regulator required them to alter their P3 trial to accomodate that mistake in a proportional way so that they'd get workable results out of it. That's my reading of it, those with more experience in this sort of medical trial will likely have better insight.

    It's very interesting, isn't it. Perhaps they will do a variety of follow up tests. If half-full is better than full-full how about half- half or third-full or nil-full etc? Can't see them holding up the initial rollout for this though. I would think that will go ahead on the basis of the most fully tested (full-full) regime.
    I suspect they’ll apply for the half-full scheme. They seem pretty confident they have the statistical significance to go to the regulators which implies that dosage level is better than the full dose within their current confidence interval. It also means more people can get vaccinated. Although I suspect the MHRA might ask to wait for the final readout before authorising.
    Maybe. But that is not what I heard on the radio this morning. The view there was that full/full will be used for the initial rollout because that has the most supporting data.
  • At this rate, come the new year they will be claiming it is 101% effective....

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,480

    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Carnyx said:

    I see the the Yoons in an effort to distract themselves from rending their House of Bruar garments and screeching in anguish at why the stupid voters don't hate Nippy, Nipoleon, Jimmy Krankie etc as much as they do, are turning to Blackford for relief. Well done him for providing an important social service in these trying times.

    As an Englishman living in Edinburgh I think Blackford's behaviour raises legitimate questions about what the SNPs much vaunted civic nationalism will look like in practice.

    Your trivializing the situation does nothing to reassure me.
    Nats cant help trivialising. Nationalism always is a simplistic and prejudiced answer to complex questions.
    YOu're assuming that it's about the person being English rather than being seen to have breached the rules (rightly or wrongly). That's a remarkably nationalistic viewpoint.

    Funny how Blackford didn't find someone from the Central Belt to chastise for breaking the rules. Decided to go after someone from England (who hadn't broken the rules). Let's face it, we all know what he's about, don't we?
    If you're going to hang the charge of racism around his neck, you'll need better evidence than that.
    I think the man is a chump, and the tweet was a terrible idea. But that doesn't make him a racist by a long, long chalk.
    It's pathological and irrational hatred of the English, voiced at every opportunity to encourage those feelings in others for political gain. If English people were an ethnic minority, as opposed to just a minority of those living in Scotland, it would be pretty easy to put a label on.
    Funny how there are so many English in the SNP and in the Yes movement - who have set up their own group precisely to refute such assumptions.
    I'm sure Carnyx will remember the very ugly spate of social media claims about how "the English" were responsible for infecting Scotland with Covid. Which was capped by the Bampots at the border with their "English Not Welcome" signs. Rightly, this was condemned by all responsible politicians in Scotland. This is why Blackford's tweet was so disgraceful and utterly irresponsible.
    Closer to home, a few of our Nats here would probably be quite frank about disliking the English if they were asked - I can't see Stuart Dickson claiming the contrary for example. Their choice, their loss in terms of potential friendships, really not worth bothering about.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

    SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.
    I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

    One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

    This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

    The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.
    If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.
    Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

    He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall
    Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

    Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.
    Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush
    You don’t think Farage will find more specious grievances with which to inflame the lumpen? There's the ongoing channel fiasco for a start and that's before het gets his teeth into Princess Nut Nut's green agenda.
    Written off more times than George Michael’s Motor!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,222
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

    SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.
    I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

    One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

    This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

    The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.
    If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.
    Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

    He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall
    Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

    Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.
    Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush
    I thought we couldn't have a Canada?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,883

    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Carnyx said:

    I see the the Yoons in an effort to distract themselves from rending their House of Bruar garments and screeching in anguish at why the stupid voters don't hate Nippy, Nipoleon, Jimmy Krankie etc as much as they do, are turning to Blackford for relief. Well done him for providing an important social service in these trying times.

    As an Englishman living in Edinburgh I think Blackford's behaviour raises legitimate questions about what the SNPs much vaunted civic nationalism will look like in practice.

    Your trivializing the situation does nothing to reassure me.
    Nats cant help trivialising. Nationalism always is a simplistic and prejudiced answer to complex questions.
    YOu're assuming that it's about the person being English rather than being seen to have breached the rules (rightly or wrongly). That's a remarkably nationalistic viewpoint.

    Funny how Blackford didn't find someone from the Central Belt to chastise for breaking the rules. Decided to go after someone from England (who hadn't broken the rules). Let's face it, we all know what he's about, don't we?
    If you're going to hang the charge of racism around his neck, you'll need better evidence than that.
    I think the man is a chump, and the tweet was a terrible idea. But that doesn't make him a racist by a long, long chalk.
    It's pathological and irrational hatred of the English, voiced at every opportunity to encourage those feelings in others for political gain. If English people were an ethnic minority, as opposed to just a minority of those living in Scotland, it would be pretty easy to put a label on.
    Funny how there are so many English in the SNP and in the Yes movement - who have set up their own group precisely to refute such assumptions.
    I'm sure Carnyx will remember the very ugly spate of social media claims about how "the English" were responsible for infecting Scotland with Covid. Which was capped by the Bampots at the border with their "English Not Welcome" signs. Rightly, this was condemned by all responsible politicians in Scotland. This is why Blackford's tweet was so disgraceful and utterly irresponsible.
    Plenty of numpties on Twitter. And elsewhere,. such as ConHome.

    But if you think Sean Clerkin has anything to do with the SNP (except disrupting their business) and the independence movement I have a 130-year-old bridge to sell you, lots of rivets, newly painted red oxide, buyer collects from Inchmickery.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,222

    After you, Comrade.
    Indeed.

    Vlad Not Had.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,883

    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Carnyx said:

    I see the the Yoons in an effort to distract themselves from rending their House of Bruar garments and screeching in anguish at why the stupid voters don't hate Nippy, Nipoleon, Jimmy Krankie etc as much as they do, are turning to Blackford for relief. Well done him for providing an important social service in these trying times.

    As an Englishman living in Edinburgh I think Blackford's behaviour raises legitimate questions about what the SNPs much vaunted civic nationalism will look like in practice.

    Your trivializing the situation does nothing to reassure me.
    Nats cant help trivialising. Nationalism always is a simplistic and prejudiced answer to complex questions.
    YOu're assuming that it's about the person being English rather than being seen to have breached the rules (rightly or wrongly). That's a remarkably nationalistic viewpoint.

    Funny how Blackford didn't find someone from the Central Belt to chastise for breaking the rules. Decided to go after someone from England (who hadn't broken the rules). Let's face it, we all know what he's about, don't we?
    If you're going to hang the charge of racism around his neck, you'll need better evidence than that.
    I think the man is a chump, and the tweet was a terrible idea. But that doesn't make him a racist by a long, long chalk.
    It's pathological and irrational hatred of the English, voiced at every opportunity to encourage those feelings in others for political gain. If English people were an ethnic minority, as opposed to just a minority of those living in Scotland, it would be pretty easy to put a label on.
    Funny how there are so many English in the SNP and in the Yes movement - who have set up their own group precisely to refute such assumptions.
    I'm sure Carnyx will remember the very ugly spate of social media claims about how "the English" were responsible for infecting Scotland with Covid. Which was capped by the Bampots at the border with their "English Not Welcome" signs. Rightly, this was condemned by all responsible politicians in Scotland. This is why Blackford's tweet was so disgraceful and utterly irresponsible.
    Closer to home, a few of our Nats here would probably be quite frank about disliking the English if they were asked - I can't see Stuart Dickson claiming the contrary for example. Their choice, their loss in terms of potential friendships, really not worth bothering about.
    Classic rightwinger mistake - to think it is about the ENglish specifically, as opposed to the numpties in charge of the UK at Westminster. So much easier to assume we're racists, then yoiu don't need to listen to us.
  • felix said:

    After you, Comrade.
    For some reason I was reminded of this when I used to teach about Jenner!


    A friend of mine used to manage Dr Jenners's house in Berkeley. Apparently that cartoon was actually pro-vaccine and was satirizing the wacky fantasies of the anti-vaxxers of the day.
  • Roy_G_Biv said:

    Carnyx said:

    I see the the Yoons in an effort to distract themselves from rending their House of Bruar garments and screeching in anguish at why the stupid voters don't hate Nippy, Nipoleon, Jimmy Krankie etc as much as they do, are turning to Blackford for relief. Well done him for providing an important social service in these trying times.

    As an Englishman living in Edinburgh I think Blackford's behaviour raises legitimate questions about what the SNPs much vaunted civic nationalism will look like in practice.

    Your trivializing the situation does nothing to reassure me.
    Nats cant help trivialising. Nationalism always is a simplistic and prejudiced answer to complex questions.
    YOu're assuming that it's about the person being English rather than being seen to have breached the rules (rightly or wrongly). That's a remarkably nationalistic viewpoint.

    Funny how Blackford didn't find someone from the Central Belt to chastise for breaking the rules. Decided to go after someone from England (who hadn't broken the rules). Let's face it, we all know what he's about, don't we?
    If you're going to hang the charge of racism around his neck, you'll need better evidence than that.
    I think the man is a chump, and the tweet was a terrible idea. But that doesn't make him a racist by a long, long chalk.
    It's pathological and irrational hatred of the English, voiced at every opportunity to encourage those feelings in others for political gain. If English people were an ethnic minority, as opposed to just a minority of those living in Scotland, it would be pretty easy to put a label on.
    I've got no problem labelling anti-English folk as racist. God knows I grew up with enough of them in Wales.
    But that's not what I was saying. I was saying if you're going to level that charge against Blackford, you need to do better than "he sent a stupid tweet to someone who is English".
    You say "voiced at every opportunity". Well, I'm listening. Show some of these voicings, and I'll assent. But, so far, you're way, way below the threshold of any reasonable person thinking the charge sticks.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    After you, Comrade.
    Producing over 1 Billion doses at circa £1 a dose
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,364

    At this rate, come the new year they will be claiming it is 101% effective....

    The chocolate ration has increased from 100g to 80g a week, Komrades!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,463
    OnboardG1 said:

    From the reading of the stories about AZ's accidental discovery of their half-dose scheme, it reads that 500 people in the Phase 2 trial element (i.e the first people to get it in any sort of numbers for initial immune response and safety) got the half dose by accident. However, reading between the lines (and what is written in the story) and given that nearly 3000 people got the half-full scheme the trial regulator required them to alter their P3 trial to accomodate that mistake in a proportional way so that they'd get workable results out of it. That's my reading of it, those with more experience in this sort of medical trial will likely have better insight.

    Lucky accidents in medical R&D haver a long and distinguished history.Back in the 20', for example, Alexander Fleming left the cover off a Petri dish.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,364
    OnboardG1 said:

    From the reading of the stories about AZ's accidental discovery of their half-dose scheme, it reads that 500 people in the Phase 2 trial element (i.e the first people to get it in any sort of numbers for initial immune response and safety) got the half dose by accident. However, reading between the lines (and what is written in the story) and given that nearly 3000 people got the half-full scheme the trial regulator required them to alter their P3 trial to accomodate that mistake in a proportional way so that they'd get workable results out of it. That's my reading of it, those with more experience in this sort of medical trial will likely have better insight.

    I would have been surprised, if those running the trail hadn't decided themselves to add the numbers - the lower level reaction to the jab combined with apparent efficacy would have been an obvious sign - "look at this in more detail"
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    The politics of which area goes into which Tier is going to be the main story of the next week I feel.
    The areas of growth (as opposed to raw numbers) in the virus are in the South. And Tory.
    Already we are seeing lots of special pleading.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,463

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

    SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.
    I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

    One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

    This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

    The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.
    If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.
    Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

    He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall
    Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

    Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.
    Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush
    I am starting to think you have a point.

    Away from the grievance of Brexit, he is far less sure of himself politically. He is groping.

    I think Reform will happen, but might be better off without him.
    When you wrote groping I thought you were referring to Boris!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,133
    edited November 2020
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

    SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.
    I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

    One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

    This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

    The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.
    If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.
    Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

    He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall
    Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

    Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.
    Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush
    I thought we couldn't have a Canada?
    An EU trade deal that ends free movement and replaces it with a points system and enables us to do our own trade deals and regain control of our fishing waters is effectively Canada, even if Boris concedes on state aid even Canada has had to agree some LPF arrangements with the EU to get its trade deal
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,364
    Crabbie said:

    Crabbie said:



    Ha - it pretty much was. George Street after about 8pm on Friday and Saturday was a place loosing control....

    The comic touch I liked, was that a pub I used to drink in had no trouble. Metal heads, goths and bikers. Very now and then, one of the gelled hair types would look in the door, and very obviously think "not here" and go away again......

    I used to drink in the Gloc...
    Great jukebox


    Used to work there, summer/autumn 2001.

    No more, but at least was still being used as a pub last time I was in Oxford.
    I was drinking there mid- to late-90s. Popped in for a pint seven (?) years ago and there were a few faces I recognised (Tetley Steve I think) and it still had an alternative jukebox but was back more recently and it had sadly been redeveloped.

    Still, nostalgia ain’t what it used to be.

    Unforgiven was disabled on The Black Album on the jukie, IIRC - landlord got sick of it.....

    I practically lived in the place. That and the Corn Dolly after hours...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,463
    dixiedean said:

    The politics of which area goes into which Tier is going to be the main story of the next week I feel.
    The areas of growth (as opposed to raw numbers) in the virus are in the South. And Tory.
    Already we are seeing lots of special pleading.

    Essex County Council, heavily Tory, sought Tier 2 status.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Carnyx said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

    SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.
    I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

    One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

    This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

    The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.
    If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.
    Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

    He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall
    Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

    Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.
    Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush
    You don’t think Farage will find more specious grievances with which to inflame the lumpen? There's the ongoing channel fiasco for a start and that's before het gets his teeth into Princess Nut Nut's green agenda.
    Nut Nuts, not Nut Nut. In the interests of PB pedantry.
    Wrong. Nut Nuts was an error in initial reports.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8950507/Cruel-Princess-Nut-Nut-nickname-Carrie-used-months.html
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,364
    kinabalu said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    From the reading of the stories about AZ's accidental discovery of their half-dose scheme, it reads that 500 people in the Phase 2 trial element (i.e the first people to get it in any sort of numbers for initial immune response and safety) got the half dose by accident. However, reading between the lines (and what is written in the story) and given that nearly 3000 people got the half-full scheme the trial regulator required them to alter their P3 trial to accomodate that mistake in a proportional way so that they'd get workable results out of it. That's my reading of it, those with more experience in this sort of medical trial will likely have better insight.

    It's very interesting, isn't it. Perhaps they will do a variety of follow up tests. If half-full is better than full-full how about half- half or third-full or nil-full etc? Can't see them holding up the initial rollout for this though. I would think that will go ahead on the basis of the most fully tested (full-full) regime.
    They said quite specifically they had enough data on half-full to take to the regulator as their request for licensing.
  • dixiedean said:

    The politics of which area goes into which Tier is going to be the main story of the next week I feel.
    The areas of growth (as opposed to raw numbers) in the virus are in the South. And Tory.
    Already we are seeing lots of special pleading.

    The pressure/pleading from PL clubs and other sports is also going to be interesting.

    I suspect we might see a situation where England's rugby union team have fans back next weekend whilst most PL clubs do not.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    felix said:

    After you, Comrade.
    For some reason I was reminded of this when I used to teach about Jenner!


    A friend of mine used to manage Dr Jenners's house in Berkeley. Apparently that cartoon was actually pro-vaccine and was satirizing the wacky fantasies of the anti-vaxxers of the day.
    Oh it very much was - Gilray et al could teach modern day twitter satirists a thing or two.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    After you, Comrade.
    Producing over 1 Billion doses at circa £1 a dose
    How many has Vlad had?
  • dixiedean said:

    The politics of which area goes into which Tier is going to be the main story of the next week I feel.
    The areas of growth (as opposed to raw numbers) in the virus are in the South. And Tory.
    Already we are seeing lots of special pleading.

    Essex County Council, heavily Tory, sought Tier 2 status.
    Although numbers in London and SE have gone up, they are still somewhat lower than many other places.

    Also it appears per the very latest figures that numbers are falling everywhere in England albeit at differing rates.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410

    dixiedean said:

    The politics of which area goes into which Tier is going to be the main story of the next week I feel.
    The areas of growth (as opposed to raw numbers) in the virus are in the South. And Tory.
    Already we are seeing lots of special pleading.

    Essex County Council, heavily Tory, sought Tier 2 status.
    Indeed it did. Somewhat the exception though.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    dixiedean said:

    The politics of which area goes into which Tier is going to be the main story of the next week I feel.
    The areas of growth (as opposed to raw numbers) in the virus are in the South. And Tory.
    Already we are seeing lots of special pleading.

    The pressure/pleading from PL clubs and other sports is also going to be interesting.

    I suspect we might see a situation where England's rugby union team have fans back next weekend whilst most PL clubs do not.
    Whilst it is probably safer to watch open air sport than indoor anyone who chooses to go to any such event really is one ball short of a team!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,480
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Carnyx said:

    I see the the Yoons in an effort to distract themselves from rending their House of Bruar garments and screeching in anguish at why the stupid voters don't hate Nippy, Nipoleon, Jimmy Krankie etc as much as they do, are turning to Blackford for relief. Well done him for providing an important social service in these trying times.

    As an Englishman living in Edinburgh I think Blackford's behaviour raises legitimate questions about what the SNPs much vaunted civic nationalism will look like in practice.

    Your trivializing the situation does nothing to reassure me.
    Nats cant help trivialising. Nationalism always is a simplistic and prejudiced answer to complex questions.
    YOu're assuming that it's about the person being English rather than being seen to have breached the rules (rightly or wrongly). That's a remarkably nationalistic viewpoint.

    Funny how Blackford didn't find someone from the Central Belt to chastise for breaking the rules. Decided to go after someone from England (who hadn't broken the rules). Let's face it, we all know what he's about, don't we?
    If you're going to hang the charge of racism around his neck, you'll need better evidence than that.
    I think the man is a chump, and the tweet was a terrible idea. But that doesn't make him a racist by a long, long chalk.
    It's pathological and irrational hatred of the English, voiced at every opportunity to encourage those feelings in others for political gain. If English people were an ethnic minority, as opposed to just a minority of those living in Scotland, it would be pretty easy to put a label on.
    Funny how there are so many English in the SNP and in the Yes movement - who have set up their own group precisely to refute such assumptions.
    I'm sure Carnyx will remember the very ugly spate of social media claims about how "the English" were responsible for infecting Scotland with Covid. Which was capped by the Bampots at the border with their "English Not Welcome" signs. Rightly, this was condemned by all responsible politicians in Scotland. This is why Blackford's tweet was so disgraceful and utterly irresponsible.
    Closer to home, a few of our Nats here would probably be quite frank about disliking the English if they were asked - I can't see Stuart Dickson claiming the contrary for example. Their choice, their loss in terms of potential friendships, really not worth bothering about.
    Classic rightwinger mistake - to think it is about the English specifically, as opposed to the numpties in charge of the UK at Westminster. So much easier to assume we're racists, then you don't need to listen to us.
    You can speak for yourself and you deserve the benefit of the doubt. More than that, I actually believe you. But you can't speak on behalf of anyone else.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,364

    dixiedean said:

    The politics of which area goes into which Tier is going to be the main story of the next week I feel.
    The areas of growth (as opposed to raw numbers) in the virus are in the South. And Tory.
    Already we are seeing lots of special pleading.

    Essex County Council, heavily Tory, sought Tier 2 status.
    Although numbers in London and SE have gone up, they are still somewhat lower than many other places.

    Also it appears per the very latest figures that numbers are falling everywhere in England albeit at differing rates.
    Regional R -

    image
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,883
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

    SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.
    I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

    One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

    This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

    The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.
    If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.
    Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

    He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall
    Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

    Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.
    Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush
    You don’t think Farage will find more specious grievances with which to inflame the lumpen? There's the ongoing channel fiasco for a start and that's before het gets his teeth into Princess Nut Nut's green agenda.
    Nut Nuts, not Nut Nut. In the interests of PB pedantry.
    Wrong. Nut Nuts was an error in initial reports.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8950507/Cruel-Princess-Nut-Nut-nickname-Carrie-used-months.html
    Ah - one learns something every day. Thank you.
  • Hard left flounce off having lost control of the NEC. Where is The_Jezziah when you need him?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,222

    kinabalu said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    From the reading of the stories about AZ's accidental discovery of their half-dose scheme, it reads that 500 people in the Phase 2 trial element (i.e the first people to get it in any sort of numbers for initial immune response and safety) got the half dose by accident. However, reading between the lines (and what is written in the story) and given that nearly 3000 people got the half-full scheme the trial regulator required them to alter their P3 trial to accomodate that mistake in a proportional way so that they'd get workable results out of it. That's my reading of it, those with more experience in this sort of medical trial will likely have better insight.

    It's very interesting, isn't it. Perhaps they will do a variety of follow up tests. If half-full is better than full-full how about half- half or third-full or nil-full etc? Can't see them holding up the initial rollout for this though. I would think that will go ahead on the basis of the most fully tested (full-full) regime.
    They said quite specifically they had enough data on half-full to take to the regulator as their request for licensing.
    Ok. Good news then. The chap I heard on the radio was wrong in that case.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,222
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

    SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.
    I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

    One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

    This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

    The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.
    If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.
    Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

    He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall
    Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

    Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.
    Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush
    I thought we couldn't have a Canada?
    An EU trade deal that ends free movement and replaces it with a points system and enables us to do our own trade deals and regain control of our fishing waters is effectively Canada, even if Boris concedes on state aid even Canada has had to agree some LPF arrangements with the EU to get its trade deal
    Well Nigel should be over the moon rather than sick as a parrot with that then.

    Talk about your independent coastal states.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    edited November 2020

    Hard left flounce off having lost control of the NEC. Where is The_Jezziah when you need him?

    Says PBs expert on flouncing

    If you told Labour members that within months Keir Starmer would suspend Corbyn, drive every left winger out of shadow cabinet and split the NEC, he never would have won the leadership.
  • kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

    SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.
    I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

    One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

    This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

    The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.
    If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.
    Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

    He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall
    Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

    Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.
    Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush
    I thought we couldn't have a Canada?
    An EU trade deal that ends free movement and replaces it with a points system and enables us to do our own trade deals and regain control of our fishing waters is effectively Canada, even if Boris concedes on state aid even Canada has had to agree some LPF arrangements with the EU to get its trade deal
    Well Nigel should be over the moon rather than sick as a parrot with that then.

    Talk about your independent coastal states.
    Nigel is a professional whinger but why should we care about him?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,133
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

    SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.
    I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

    One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

    This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

    The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.
    If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.
    Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

    He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall
    Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

    Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.
    Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush
    I thought we couldn't have a Canada?
    An EU trade deal that ends free movement and replaces it with a points system and enables us to do our own trade deals and regain control of our fishing waters is effectively Canada, even if Boris concedes on state aid even Canada has had to agree some LPF arrangements with the EU to get its trade deal
    Well Nigel should be over the moon rather than sick as a parrot with that then.

    Talk about your independent coastal states.
    If the No Deal diehards refuse to even accept a Canada style FTA they can sod off to Farage as far as I am concerned and never come back!!
  • HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

    SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.
    I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

    One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

    This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

    The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.
    If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.
    Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

    He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall
    Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

    Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.
    Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush
    I thought we couldn't have a Canada?
    An EU trade deal that ends free movement and replaces it with a points system and enables us to do our own trade deals and regain control of our fishing waters is effectively Canada, even if Boris concedes on state aid even Canada has had to agree some LPF arrangements with the EU to get its trade deal
    That sounds rational. (I suspect it won't happen like that, but it sounds rational.)

    But Faragism has never been about being rational. It's been about shouting slogans. It's about pulling the debate one step further in a nationalist-populist direction than the government is prepared to go. And ultimately, it's about destruction more than creation.

    Whatever deal BoJo eventually ends up with will involve compromises. (Cards on table: I'd rather that the UK were making a lot more compromises than it's likely to, to keep more and smoother access. But hey ho.) Whatever compromises are made will be roundly and loudly condemned by Nigel.

    Farage will hang around, stinking out the place, as long as he wants to. I'm sure we could all write the script for an anti-Sunak rant if it were to become necessary. The idea that he'll say "That Boris has get it right, my job here is done" is for the birds.
  • felix said:

    dixiedean said:

    The politics of which area goes into which Tier is going to be the main story of the next week I feel.
    The areas of growth (as opposed to raw numbers) in the virus are in the South. And Tory.
    Already we are seeing lots of special pleading.

    The pressure/pleading from PL clubs and other sports is also going to be interesting.

    I suspect we might see a situation where England's rugby union team have fans back next weekend whilst most PL clubs do not.
    Whilst it is probably safer to watch open air sport than indoor anyone who chooses to go to any such event really is one ball short of a team!
    Just imagine your supporter of the biggest team in London, Spurs, the last time you won the title man hadn't set foot on the moon, of course you'd want to go the matches and see your team win the title.

    It is understandable.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited November 2020
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

    SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.
    I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

    One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

    This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

    The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.
    If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.
    Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

    He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall
    Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

    Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.
    Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush
    I thought we couldn't have a Canada?
    An EU trade deal that ends free movement and replaces it with a points system and enables us to do our own trade deals and regain control of our fishing waters is effectively Canada, even if Boris concedes on state aid even Canada has had to agree some LPF arrangements with the EU to get its trade deal
    Well Nigel should be over the moon rather than sick as a parrot with that then.

    Talk about your independent coastal states.
    If the No Deal diehards refuse to even accept a Canada style FTA they can sod off to Farage as far as I am concerned and never come back!!
    There is no reason not to accept a Canada style FTA.

    Unfortunately the EU aren't offering that currently. Hopefully they concede on the level playing field and turn it into a Canada style FTA and if they do I'd gladly support it.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410

    dixiedean said:

    The politics of which area goes into which Tier is going to be the main story of the next week I feel.
    The areas of growth (as opposed to raw numbers) in the virus are in the South. And Tory.
    Already we are seeing lots of special pleading.

    The pressure/pleading from PL clubs and other sports is also going to be interesting.

    I suspect we might see a situation where England's rugby union team have fans back next weekend whilst most PL clubs do not.
    This 4000/2000 business seems very blunt. Surely that depends on the capacity?
    We saw this in France over the Summer.
    5000 rattling around PSG. and 5000 in a 13000 capacity stadium are two very different things.
  • HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

    SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.
    I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

    One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

    This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

    The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.
    If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.
    Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

    He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall
    Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

    Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.
    Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush
    I thought we couldn't have a Canada?
    An EU trade deal that ends free movement and replaces it with a points system and enables us to do our own trade deals and regain control of our fishing waters is effectively Canada, even if Boris concedes on state aid even Canada has had to agree some LPF arrangements with the EU to get its trade deal
    Well Nigel should be over the moon rather than sick as a parrot with that then.

    Talk about your independent coastal states.
    If the No Deal diehards refuse to even accept a Canada style FTA they can sod off to Farage as far as I am concerned and never come back!!
    How many Conservative 2019 voters can they take with them?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    The politics of which area goes into which Tier is going to be the main story of the next week I feel.
    The areas of growth (as opposed to raw numbers) in the virus are in the South. And Tory.
    Already we are seeing lots of special pleading.

    The pressure/pleading from PL clubs and other sports is also going to be interesting.

    I suspect we might see a situation where England's rugby union team have fans back next weekend whilst most PL clubs do not.
    This 4000/2000 business seems very blunt. Surely that depends on the capacity?
    We saw this in France over the Summer.
    5000 rattling around PSG. and 5000 in a 13000 capacity stadium are two very different things.
    Its 4,000 or 50% capacity whichever is the lower
  • HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

    SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.
    I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

    One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

    This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

    The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.
    If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.
    Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

    He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall
    Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

    Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.
    Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush
    I thought we couldn't have a Canada?
    An EU trade deal that ends free movement and replaces it with a points system and enables us to do our own trade deals and regain control of our fishing waters is effectively Canada, even if Boris concedes on state aid even Canada has had to agree some LPF arrangements with the EU to get its trade deal
    That sounds rational. (I suspect it won't happen like that, but it sounds rational.)

    But Faragism has never been about being rational. It's been about shouting slogans. It's about pulling the debate one step further in a nationalist-populist direction than the government is prepared to go. And ultimately, it's about destruction more than creation.

    Whatever deal BoJo eventually ends up with will involve compromises. (Cards on table: I'd rather that the UK were making a lot more compromises than it's likely to, to keep more and smoother access. But hey ho.) Whatever compromises are made will be roundly and loudly condemned by Nigel.

    Farage will hang around, stinking out the place, as long as he wants to. I'm sure we could all write the script for an anti-Sunak rant if it were to become necessary. The idea that he'll say "That Boris has get it right, my job here is done" is for the birds.
    His job is already done, he's not a politician. He didn't even bother standing for Westminster in 2019. His career in politics is over.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    algarkirk said:


    Laura Pidcock
    @LauraPidcock
    · 1h
    The left grouping were just forced to walk out of NEC meeting. The disrespect for the left is something we will not put up with. The leadership undermine governance of the NEC, censor debate & ignore our processes by doubling down on the removal of the whip from @jeremycorbyn

    Lovely use of "forced" there to describe an unforced tactical decision. Like Trump - who abuses language in his own ways as well - the left are not great losers, though they should be getting used to it by now.

    SKS knows that win an election he needs quite a few people who habitually vote Tory to vote Labour. As long as the left is acting in a Trumpish manner he will struggle. It is worth considering carefully the mystery of why he isn't 20 points ahead now.
    I wouldn't say Labour needs habitual Tory voters, but it does need people who view voting Tory as something you can do and still claim to have a conscience - which is a view I struggle with, naturally.

    One of the reasons SKS isn't ahead is because they aren't listening to his criticism of the government. Yesterday in Parliament is a bit of an exception, and SKS seemed to make a decent stab of criticising the government failure over isolating people infectious with Covid - but it doesn't cut through.

    This might be because SKS is boring and lacks personality, so won't get a hearing on any topic. Or it might be that the media remain fixated on the eternal debate over the minutiae of Corona restrictions.

    The most prominent SKS has been on Covid since being elected was when he called for the circuit-breaker. The media's favourite topic.
    If Labour attract a load of habitual Con voters that is landslide. I'd say it's more the floaters who are the realistic target. Those middle ground voters who reluctantly voted Con last time because they were spooked by the notion of PM Corbyn. But in addition one does not want to lose too many of those who were enthused by the Corbyn era. They remain an essential part of an election winning coalition. So I don't think Labour supporters should be too gung ho about "the left" getting royally pissed off with Starmer.
    Starmer is never going to match Blair in appeal to Tory voters, he won the biggest Labour landslides ever in 1997 and 2001 precisely because many Tories saw him as a One Nation Tory and that is why he made such big inroads even in the traditionally Tory South.

    He just needs to appeal to working class and lower middle class swing voters who might have voted for Harold Wilson in a previous era, particularly in the North, the Midlands, London and Wales and win back the Red Wall
    Starmer's best hope is divide and conquer. Get as many disaffected tories as he can to vote for Farage, and drive through the middle.

    Which means supporting Boris quite a bit, actually.
    Provided Boris does not do a SM and CU BINO but a Canada style FTA and starts to ease back on lockdowns next year as we get people vaccinated I think Farage will be a busted flush
    I thought we couldn't have a Canada?
    An EU trade deal that ends free movement and replaces it with a points system and enables us to do our own trade deals and regain control of our fishing waters is effectively Canada, even if Boris concedes on state aid even Canada has had to agree some LPF arrangements with the EU to get its trade deal
    Well Nigel should be over the moon rather than sick as a parrot with that then.

    Talk about your independent coastal states.
    If the No Deal diehards refuse to even accept a Canada style FTA they can sod off to Farage as far as I am concerned and never come back!!
    How many Conservative 2019 voters can they take with them?
    I`m sensing that a lot of people have had their fill of Farage.
  • Hmm.

    Suppose we leave with no deal.

    Disruption, turmoil, and a split in the body politic with some advocating a stuff 'em attitude and others saying we must admit we were wrong and return to the EU.

    How would voters react?

    Polling seems to suggest a stable majority for the notion we were wrong to leave. But that may not translate to a majority saying we should rejoin (especially if terms are worse).

    Tumultuous times will remain, I think...
  • dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    The politics of which area goes into which Tier is going to be the main story of the next week I feel.
    The areas of growth (as opposed to raw numbers) in the virus are in the South. And Tory.
    Already we are seeing lots of special pleading.

    The pressure/pleading from PL clubs and other sports is also going to be interesting.

    I suspect we might see a situation where England's rugby union team have fans back next weekend whilst most PL clubs do not.
    This 4000/2000 business seems very blunt. Surely that depends on the capacity?
    We saw this in France over the Summer.
    5000 rattling around PSG. and 5000 in a 13000 capacity stadium are two very different things.
    I suspect the maximum number of spectators will be refined after a few successful events.

    Although it won't make much difference at the Emptyhad.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    An excellent fool's (that's me) guide to the new vaccine technology developed by Pfizer and Moderna. I suspect that this is going to revolutionise the world and will be looked back on as one of the greatest moments of scientific advance:

    https://edition.cnn.com/videos/health/2020/11/23/vaccine-technology-coronavirus-pfizer-moderna-gupta-newday-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/coronavirus/

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,222
    felix said:

    After you, Comrade.
    Producing over 1 Billion doses at circa £1 a dose
    How many has Vlad had?
    Unless you are in his bubble you have to isolate for 14 days and then be sprayed with disinfectant before you are allowed in the same room with him.

    In case you were planning on it.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    dixiedean said:

    The politics of which area goes into which Tier is going to be the main story of the next week I feel.
    The areas of growth (as opposed to raw numbers) in the virus are in the South. And Tory.
    Already we are seeing lots of special pleading.

    The pressure/pleading from PL clubs and other sports is also going to be interesting.

    I suspect we might see a situation where England's rugby union team have fans back next weekend whilst most PL clubs do not.
    England are away in Wales though I think, so I guess local rules will apply....
  • Re sports attendance... isn't the problem more about before and after the game.

    I seemed to remember reading in Germany they had staggered arrival times, which worked ok, but the problem was the end.... everybody rushed for the exits and crammed together.
This discussion has been closed.