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  • MrEd said:

    Well, I have always said I have a problem with the quality of American polls.

    However, criticising a poll of 500 voters in Miami-Dade when people seem willing to accept without question the findings of a 1,000-2,000 national opinion poll across the US seems slightly odd.
    I certainly agree taking a single poll in isolation is foolish - particularly polls where the sample size is so small. Much more sensible to look at the aggregated metrics.

    But it's particularly dangerous to view small subsamples of polls in isolation - you may have heard the infamous Scottish subsamples of PB folklore. In this case, approx 25% of the population in Florida is Hispanic, so if we assume the subsample contains the same proportion of voters (125) then this implies a MOE of 8.7%. (!)
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Come over to Labour mate :)
    Not whilst they still have RLB and are beholden to their union paymasters.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    HYUFD said:

    Mainly down to Cuban Americans

    'But the poll found the former vice president splitting Hispanic voters with Trump, with Trump at 47% and Biden at 46%. Those numbers — based on smaller polling subsets with larger margins of error — are driven by Trump’s increased support among conservative leaning Cuban-Americans, who supported Trump over Biden in the poll by a crushing 38 points. Just eight years ago, those voters roughly split their votes between Republican nominee Mitt Romney and former President Barack Obama.

    “Democrats are potentially leaving Cuban votes on the table that they won in the past, which could very well make a difference in a state as tight as Florida,” said Amandi, whose firm produced Spanish-language ads for the 2012 Obama campaign.'

    https://outline.com/2TnybA
    One possible problem for Biden is that the Hispanic agenda has gained almost no traction recently because all the focus has been on BLM. The Hispanic and Black communities are not natural bedfellows (in places like New Mexico, there have been clashes between BLM supporters and the Hispanic population overthe statues issues). And Trump has not been pushing his 2016 rhetoric.

    Therefore, it's entirely possible that there is a gradual erosion in the Hispanic lead the Democrats have. This wouldn't be the first poll to show their advantage amongst Hispanics narrowing.

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    Alistair said:

    Rasmussen with a 4 point lead for Biden in Ohio

    Lol.

    That’s a horrid poll for Trumpton.

    Absolutely awful.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,148

    https://twitter.com/ActuaryByDay/status/1303028417034682369

    The Tory Party are incompetent, that much is obvious.

    It is looking pretty ominous.

    At least we have PPE for this wave.
  • There aren't enough pixels on the Internet to list all the reasons Starmer is better than Jezza.
    I like how unlike others, you never push it down my throat for my former support of Mr Corbyn
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    I certainly agree taking a single poll in isolation is foolish - particularly polls where the sample size is so small. Much more sensible to look at the aggregated metrics.

    But it's particularly dangerous to view small subsamples of polls in isolation - you may have heard the infamous Scottish subsamples of PB folklore. In this case, approx 25% of the population in Florida is Hispanic, so if we assume the subsample contains the same proportion of voters (125) then this implies a MOE of 8.7%. (!)
    Oh I agree with you there. I think there is a general fixation on the polls.

    One thing I think is making it harder this time for the parties is the social restrictions and lack of campaigns / door to door visits. That makes it harder for campaigns to pick up what is going on the ground, what people are happy with etc, which then gets fed back up. Replying to @rcs1000 if Clinton had heeded the feedback from the Unions in the Midwest, it is entirely possible she would be President.
  • nichomar said:

    Not whilst they still have RLB and are beholden to their union paymasters.
    RLB has no power.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,698
    edited September 2020

    I wonder if all this was indeed just a ruse to trick Sir Keir into painting himself into a corner. Apparently Boris was incandescent after last week's PMQs, so perhaps he's been hatching some dastardly plot to embarrass his nemesis as a counter-punch. Looks like Sir Keir has swerved it though.
    Destroying the reputation of the City of London (for that is what today has really done, even if Boris backs down later) to embarrass the leader of the opposition seems a bit too much for even Cummings..
  • eek said:
    My MP, Suella, is the Attorney General.
    At public meetings she has made clear that she is 'not afaid' of leaving without a deal - in a way that indicates that's what she would really like to do.
    She's also against 'cultural marxism', whatever that is.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,904
    edited September 2020
    MrEd said:

    One possible problem for Biden is that the Hispanic agenda has gained almost no traction recently because all the focus has been on BLM. The Hispanic and Black communities are not natural bedfellows (in places like New Mexico, there have been clashes between BLM supporters and the Hispanic population overthe statues issues). And Trump has not been pushing his 2016 rhetoric.

    Therefore, it's entirely possible that there is a gradual erosion in the Hispanic lead the Democrats have. This wouldn't be the first poll to show their advantage amongst Hispanics narrowing.

    Perhaps but that is not reflected in other states with big Hispanic states like Arizona and New Mexico, Cuban Americans in Florida have always leaned more GOP due to opposition to Castro
  • Johnson and Cummings were hoping Starmer would suggest we delay the transition period.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,904

    That’s a horrid poll for Trumpton.

    Absolutely awful.
    This one rather less so

    https://twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/1303363679270961152?s=20

    Though both key swing state polls have the Biden lead still well below his 7% average national lead
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    HYUFD said:

    Though only a 2% lead forecast for Biden in Pennsylvania by Susquehanna, both battleground state polls are still significantly narrower leads for Biden than his 7% national average poll lead
    The clue is surely in the billing: battleground states
  • Johnson and Cummings were hoping Starmer would suggest we delay the transition period.

    He's learned the lesson of last year when the opposition let Johnson off the hook.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,938
    edited September 2020

    Johnson and Cummings were hoping Starmer would suggest we delay the transition period.

    Plus emphasise observing international law before "Getting Brexit Done", not as part of it or a subset of it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,719
    HYUFD said:

    Mainly down to Cuban Americans

    'But the poll found the former vice president splitting Hispanic voters with Trump, with Trump at 47% and Biden at 46%. Those numbers — based on smaller polling subsets with larger margins of error — are driven by Trump’s increased support among conservative leaning Cuban-Americans, who supported Trump over Biden in the poll by a crushing 38 points. Just eight years ago, those voters roughly split their votes between Republican nominee Mitt Romney and former President Barack Obama.

    “Democrats are potentially leaving Cuban votes on the table that they won in the past, which could very well make a difference in a state as tight as Florida,” said Amandi, whose firm produced Spanish-language ads for the 2012 Obama campaign.'

    https://outline.com/2TnybA
    Ok thanks - interesting. As I say, I have a hunch for Trump overperformance in Florida.

    But OTOH, felons. Somebody said the other day - Sandpit? - that they now have the vote in Florida and that's an guaranteed extra 1m for Biden on 3/11.

    Because felons vote Democrat of course. If you don't vote Democrat you aint a felon.
  • In this Parliament, Starmer has outplayed Johnson at every turn.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,698

    My MP, Suella, is the Attorney General.
    At public meetings she has made clear that she is 'not afaid' of leaving without a deal - in a way that indicates that's what she would really like to do.
    She's also against 'cultural marxism', whatever that is.
    Two random words cobbled together to cover everything she hates...
  • https://twitter.com/NIAbbot/status/1303379432602828801

    Johnson is definitely off his game, I am sure Corona has done this
  • kinabalu said:

    Ok thanks - interesting. As I say, I have a hunch for Trump overperformance in Florida.

    But OTOH, felons. Somebody said the other day - Sandpit? - that they now have the vote in Florida and that's an guaranteed extra 1m for Biden on 3/11.

    Because felons vote Democrat of course. If you don't vote Democrat you aint a felon.
    Not happening.

    https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892105780/supreme-court-deals-major-blow-to-ex-felons-right-to-vote-in-florida
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,286
    edited September 2020

    The clue is surely in the billing: battleground states
    I think the point HYFUD is making is that these are basically states Biden needs to win. So if he has a narrow swing state 2% lead on a 7% national lead then he can't afford any movement back to Trump - 4% national lead won't do it for him.

    I am a bit more sceptical about the idea Biden is piling up votes in California to a greater extent than Clinton. I think it's more likely that the state polls slightly overstate Trump and the national ones slightly overstate Biden based on different methodologies and (often) different pollsters. But I see the argument.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,148
    kinabalu said:

    Ok thanks - interesting. As I say, I have a hunch for Trump overperformance in Florida.

    But OTOH, felons. Somebody said the other day - Sandpit? - that they now have the vote in Florida and that's an guaranteed extra 1m for Biden on 3/11.

    Because felons vote Democrat of course. If you don't vote Democrat you aint a felon.
    I suspect felons unlikely to vote at all, and many might be white power trumpers.

    I think a lot of Puerto Ricans moved over after the hurricane and not Trump fans.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,917

    Yet again, we knew the cases would rise, we had to simply look across the Channel.

    Yet again, the Tories did nothing.

    Oh but they did.
    A week and a bit ago they were offering a tenner bung to crowd into a restaurant.
    Last week they were exhorting folk onto trains and buses into offices. Even if neither employer or employee found it necessary.
    And implying anyone who didn't was an unpatriotic shirker and economic saboteur.
    Last week they were insisting schools were safe and casting aspersions on parents and teachers. This week there are a few closing.
    And for months encouraging folk to fly off and come back without testing and to quarantine if you felt like it.
    I could go on.
    But I reckon they've done quite a lot.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,202

    https://twitter.com/NIAbbot/status/1303379432602828801

    Johnson is definitely off his game, I am sure Corona has done this

    No, he was always crap and lazy. Even before his political career his writing was flowery nonsense.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    HYUFD said:

    Though only a 2% lead forecast for Biden in Pennsylvania by Susquehanna, both battleground state polls are still significantly narrower leads for Biden than his 7% national average poll lead
    The clue is surely in the billing: battleground states

    I think the point HYFUD is making is that these are basically states Biden needs to win. So if he has a narrow swing state 2% lead on a 7% national lead then he can't afford any movement back to Trump - 4% national lead won't do it for him.

    I am a bit more sceptical about the idea Biden is piling up votes in California to a greater extent than Clinton. I think it's more likely that the state polls slightly overstate Trump and the national ones slightly overstate Biden based on different methodologies and (often) different pollsters. But I see the argument.
    He doesn’t need to win PA or Ohio.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    That’s a horrid poll for Trumpton.

    Absolutely awful.
    Do you think it is the massive corruption scandal engulfing the GOP there? The Kasich endorsementcof Biden? Or maybe Trump demanding a boycott of Goodyear Tyres (Headquarters Akron, Ohio)?

    I just can't put my finger on why Republicans are in trouble there.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    I think the point HYFUD is making is that these are basically states Biden needs to win. So if he has a narrow swing state 2% lead on a 7% national lead then he can't afford any movement back to Trump - 4% national lead won't do it for him.

    I am a bit more sceptical about the idea Biden is piling up votes in California to a greater extent than Clinton. I think it's more likely that the state polls slightly overstate Trump and the national ones slightly overstate Biden based on different methodologies and (often) different pollsters. But I see the argument.
    On piling up votes in California, are electricity blackout that popular?

    maybe Caroline Lucas should explicitly put them in the Green Party manifesto
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,290

    Yet again, we knew the cases would rise, we had to simply look across the Channel.

    Yet again, the Tories did nothing.

    What do you think they should have done?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,148

    Based on the ONS figures around 900
    Though as flu is rarely confirmed by viral swab, can we be sure? Even if covid negative, there would be false negatives (around 30% of covid patients) and obviously excess deaths couldn't distinguish the two.

    In other words, were these 900 really flu?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,202
    dixiedean said:

    Oh but they did.
    A week and a bit ago they were offering a tenner bung to crowd into a restaurant.
    Last week they were exhorting folk onto trains and buses into offices. Even if neither employer or employee found it necessary.
    And implying anyone who didn't was an unpatriotic shirker and economic saboteur.
    Last week they were insisting schools were safe and casting aspersions on parents and teachers. This week there are a few closing.
    And for months encouraging folk to fly off and come back without testing and to quarantine if you felt like it.
    I could go on.
    But I reckon they've done quite a lot.
    Operation "Save Pret" working a dream.

    One didn't have to be Mystic Meg to see where these economic stimulus ideas could lead.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,459

    In this Parliament, Starmer has outplayed Johnson at every turn.

    Apart from Johnson actually running the country and Starmer seeming very remote and ascetic.

    Starmer is doing well, and perhaps very well.

    Boris is doing fine too though, and all of the things that Boris is actually doing help him (even when wrong).
    As did you.

    The result of the election is a collective consensus. You may of course not have voted for the winner.
  • @Omnium I never voted Tory, nor Brexit. I did not vote for this
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,904
    edited September 2020

    The clue is surely in the billing: battleground states He doesn’t need to win PA or Ohio.
    He does if he loses Florida and Michigan
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    HYUFD said:

    No, the EU just wants to make Northern Ireland an EU colony as its civil servants were on camera saying during the negotiations and to create a border in the Irish Sea.

    The UK however wants no hard border within Ireland and no border in the Irish Sea either
    Perhaps they shouldn't have ditched the May Deal which guaranteed that then...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,130
    Alistair said:

    Do you think it is the massive corruption scandal engulfing the GOP there? The Kasich endorsementcof Biden? Or maybe Trump demanding a boycott of Goodyear Tyres (Headquarters Akron, Ohio)?

    I just can't put my finger on why Republicans are in trouble there.
    One thing that I have seen a number of times - a scandal/dramatic moment happens. The polls don't move immediately.

    Then a week of 2 later...

    The military thing?
  • The Twittersphere would have us believe the entire country wants us to spend our weekends climbing trees to protest climate change whilst eating quinoa and kale.

    Lol, these people live in her head rent free
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,917
    Key thing Starmer said. We need to get back to the real issue the pandemic.
    If you continue to produce dead cats folk will expect a dead cat.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,202

    My MP, Suella, is the Attorney General.
    At public meetings she has made clear that she is 'not afaid' of leaving without a deal - in a way that indicates that's what she would really like to do.
    She's also against 'cultural marxism', whatever that is.
    Aren't we all? If Suella DeVille and Robert Buckland nod this one through, there will be ramifications regarding international law for generations.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    HYUFD said:

    He does if he loses Florida and Michigan and Minnesota or Wisconsin
    Such insight.

  • https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1303363781934936070

    Oh dear, the biggest Tory attack shut down, what will Cummings cry about now?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,130
    On the deaths -

    image
    image

    England hospital

    image
    image
    image
    image


  • He doesn’t need to win PA or Ohio.

    He definitely doesn't need to win Ohio, which wasn't that close in 2018. And there are routes to victory not passing through Pennsylvania.

    But Pennsylvania was the second closest Trump state in 2016 and has 20 delegates which is a big prize to miss. Biden also has a good claim to being local as he was born in Scranton. Put it this way - if we wake up the day after the election and Biden hasn't won Pennsylvania he probably (although I accept not definitely) isn't President.
  • eek said:

    This Government was elected on the basis of the Withdrawal Agreement (as negotiated by Boris) and Boris's Oven Ready Deal.

    Starmers only question tomorrow needs to be what is delaying the Oven Ready deal being signed
    I'm sure Boris is on top of the details......
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,130
    Foxy said:

    Though as flu is rarely confirmed by viral swab, can we be sure? Even if covid negative, there would be false negatives (around 30% of covid patients) and obviously excess deaths couldn't distinguish the two.

    In other words, were these 900 really flu?
    Is anyone dying of "flu" in the UK *not* being tested, at the moment?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    The Marist poll for FL isn’t good for Biden, but it is balanced out by an excellent survey from OH.

    A mixed bag this evening.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,917
    edited September 2020
    Wonder what the pub at the top of my parents' street will be like this weekend?
    100 metres inside Wigan from the Bolton border.
    First one on the A road.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795

    He definitely doesn't need to win Ohio, which wasn't that close in 2018. And there are routes to victory not passing through Pennsylvania.

    But Pennsylvania was the second closest Trump state in 2016 and has 20 delegates which is a big prize to miss. Biden also has a good claim to being local as he was born in Scranton. Put it this way - if we wake up the day after the election and Biden hasn't won Pennsylvania he probably (although I accept not definitely) isn't President.
    I thought that (and have long forecast a Trump victory). Yet when I did my map, it had Biden on 270 exactly without any of OH, FL or PA.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    I'm sure Boris is on top of the details......
    He'll probably waffle on about lawyers and not taking any lectures from them.
  • My MP, Suella, is the Attorney General.
    At public meetings she has made clear that she is 'not afaid' of leaving without a deal - in a way that indicates that's what she would really like to do.
    She's also against 'cultural marxism', whatever that is.
    Fantastic. You've got a very good MP.
  • alex_ said:

    He'll probably waffle on about lawyers and not taking any lectures from them.
    Should we just let lawyers run the world?
  • I thought that (and have long forecast a Trump victory). Yet when I did my map, it had Biden on 270 exactly without any of OH, FL or PA.
    As I say, there are routes to victory that don't include Pennsylvania and which aren't incredible. It's just that if my crystal ball told be Biden misses the second closest state, and the one where he was born, I'd be pretty pessimistic (albeit not utterly hopeless) about it.

    On Ohio, I can't honestly see Biden winning Ohio (8% Trump margin in 2016) but NOT Pennsylvania (under 1%) as they are demographically similar. That's less so for Florida as it was much closer in 2016 and the demographics differ. So Florida might replace Pennsylvania in a winning path, but Ohio is unlikely to do so.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,371
    edited September 2020
    Strange England team tonight. Grealish must wonder if he is ever going to play for England.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,148
    alex_ said:

    He'll probably waffle on about lawyers and not taking any lectures from them.
    Lock him up!
  • Should we just let lawyers run the world?
    No, but we should probably listen to them when they talk about the law, and to doctors when they talk about health, and to structural engineers when they talk about bridges. If we want to maintain the rule of law, stay in reasonable health, and not fall into rivers anyway.


  • No, but we should probably listen to them when they talk about the law, and to doctors when they talk about health, and to structural engineers when they talk about bridges. If we want to maintain the rule of law, stay in reasonable health, and not fall into rivers anyway.
    Experts? You're 'avin a larf!!!!!!!

    :D:D:D
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,904

    As I say, there are routes to victory that don't include Pennsylvania and which aren't incredible. It's just that if my crystal ball told be Biden misses the second closest state, and the one where he was born, I'd be pretty pessimistic (albeit not utterly hopeless) about it.

    On Ohio, I can't honestly see Biden winning Ohio (8% Trump margin in 2016) but NOT Pennsylvania (under 1%) as they are demographically similar. That's less so for Florida as it was much closer in 2016 and the demographics differ. So Florida might replace Pennsylvania in a winning path, but Ohio is unlikely to do so.
    To win without Ohio or Florida or Pennsylvania Biden basically needs to win Arizona, Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota and Nebraska 02
  • MaxPB said:

    We signed up to an agreement, we are now expected to uphold it. It can't get more simple than that.
    If it's in our interest to do so.

    If it's not we should if need be renounce it and move on.

    The EU aren't honouring their commitments in good faith so I don't care. Maybe next year we can revisit things but the UK government needs to look after the UK, the EU isn't going to do so.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,204
    As Starmer points out correctly in his interview with Rigby, we are in fact now outside the EU.

  • Pulpstar said:

    As Starmer points out correctly in his interview with Rigby, we are in fact now outside the EU.

    Indeed we are. So the UK Parliament needs to decide UK laws, which it's going to do tomorrow.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,290
    I disagree with this article but it's an interesting read anyway.

    https://unherd.com/2020/09/hypocrisy-is-not-the-worst-thing-on-earth/
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,810

    If it's in our interest to do so.

    If it's not we should if need be renounce it and move on.

    The EU aren't honouring their commitments in good faith so I don't care. Maybe next year we can revisit things but the UK government needs to look after the UK, the EU isn't going to do so.
    No, international agreements are always a compromise, and we need to uphold the compromise parts as much as the bits we like. Trust in the UK to uphold international agreements and the rule of law is taking a huge dent right now, it wouldn't be an issue if we had already ratified and codified 60 trade deals and signed up to the TPP, but we haven't. Now those trade deals become much more stringent and the enforcement mechanisms and break penalties become harsher. It's also a disaster for the City, we've got a meeting about it tomorrow morning, even I've been told to attend because we need to get a strategy together for reassuring clients that their money isn't at risk from state interference when the questions start to roll in. Our trump card for keeping the City has always been rule of law, the UK is one of very few countries that lives and dies by rule of law, now the government are undoing all of that for absolutely no gain.

    Also, what evidence do you have that the EU aren't honouring their side of the bargain?

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,719

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1303363781934936070

    Oh dear, the biggest Tory attack shut down, what will Cummings cry about now?

    Yes. We say to them Tories. This is boring. You said you'd get Brexit done so get it done. By the end of the year and not a moment longer. Do or Die for fucks sake. Grow a pair, get it over with, deal or no deal. Sort it Mr Johnson. Own it Mr Johnson. Then we can talk about more important things.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,204

    Indeed we are. So the UK Parliament needs to decide UK laws, which it's going to do tomorrow.
    Yep, which way parliamentarians head through the lobbies won't affect whether we're in or out the EU but it will have consequences for our future relationship.
  • eek said:

    This Government was elected on the basis of the Withdrawal Agreement (as negotiated by Boris) and Boris's Oven Ready Deal.

    Starmers only question tomorrow needs to be what is delaying the Oven Ready deal being signed
    To be fair, Boris did not promise he had an oven at all.
  • Should we just let lawyers run the world?

    They can't do a worse job than columnists.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,719

    He definitely doesn't need to win Ohio, which wasn't that close in 2018. And there are routes to victory not passing through Pennsylvania.

    But Pennsylvania was the second closest Trump state in 2016 and has 20 delegates which is a big prize to miss. Biden also has a good claim to being local as he was born in Scranton. Put it this way - if we wake up the day after the election and Biden hasn't won Pennsylvania he probably (although I accept not definitely) isn't President.
    We won't be waking up on the day after the election because we won't have gone to sleep.

    Anyway - big Biden spread bet on supremacy with smaller hedge on the fixed odds Trump to hold Florida. That is me atm.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,280
    MrEd said:

    Well, I have always said I have a problem with the quality of American polls.

    However, criticising a poll of 500 voters in Miami-Dade when people seem willing to accept without question the findings of a 1,000-2,000 national opinion poll across the US seems slightly odd.
    No, not odd at all.

    We should all know, for example, that approximately 55% of voters in Presidential elections are women. We should all know that around 28% of voters are Registered Republicans. We should all know that the young are less likely to vote than the old.

    If we have a poll without those crosstabs, then we have no idea whether its weightings in any way match the likely weightings of the electorate. Trusting a poll without knowing how it is constructed is taking an awful lot on faith.

    We also know how accurate - in aggregate - national polls have been in the past.

    They have been judged, analysed, pored over, compared, and rated.

    So, yes, I do trust the national polls more.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,912

    To be fair, Boris did not promise he had an oven at all.
    And right now he appears to be wearing the oven gloves as some sort of strange headgear, rather than using them to put anything in any ovens. People look on in anxiety as they try to fathom whether all the screws are still in place.
  • Should we just let lawyers run the world?
    Philip this is really embarrassing.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,045
    Turns out Boris meant “half-baked” rather than “oven-ready”
  • kinabalu said:

    We won't be waking up on the day after the election because we won't have gone to sleep.

    Anyway - big Biden spread bet on supremacy with smaller hedge on the fixed odds Trump to hold Florida. That is me atm.
    It could be a few days before the results are in.
    Will Fox News hold off calling the states before the postal votes have been tallied - if not it could get violent.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,648
    Young Dehenna would be wise to spend some time dealing with the Far Right infiltration in her local party.
  • And right now he appears to be wearing the oven gloves as some sort of strange headgear, rather than using them to put anything in any ovens. People look on in anxiety as they try to fathom whether all the screws are still in place.
    "Just at the time when we need to preheat the national oven, the Islington Remainer opposite wants us to bow down to international law instead."
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,396

    Turns out Boris meant “half-baked” rather than “oven-ready”

    We’ll all raw with astonishment if he gets a deal.
  • If it's in our interest to do so.

    If it's not we should if need be renounce it and move on.

    The EU aren't honouring their commitments in good faith so I don't care. Maybe next year we can revisit things but the UK government needs to look after the UK, the EU isn't going to do so.
    The UK looking after the UK involves sorting out a deal with our largest trading partner.
  • ydoethur said:

    We’ll all raw with astonishment if he gets a deal.
    We can get plenty of dough without though.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,396
    Cyclefree said:

    Young Dehenna would be wise to spend some time dealing with the Far Right infiltration in her local party.
    No, she’s quite right.

    But that does beg the question of why the silly fucker signed such a deal in the first place.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,917

    The UK looking after the UK involves sorting out a deal with our largest trading partner.
    One would have thought so.
    However, the government and a large portion of the population think otherwise.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,396
    edited September 2020
    dixiedean said:

    One would have thought so.
    However, the government and a large portion of the population think otherwise.
    Really?

    Not about the deal, this claim that the government thinks...
  • @Philip_Thompson do you admit now that the deal is rubbish or you still think it's good?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    T
    MaxPB said:

    No, international agreements are always a compromise, and we need to uphold the compromise parts as much as the bits we like. Trust in the UK to uphold international agreements and the rule of law is taking a huge dent right now, it wouldn't be an issue if we had already ratified and codified 60 trade deals and signed up to the TPP, but we haven't. Now those trade deals become much more stringent and the enforcement mechanisms and break penalties become harsher. It's also a disaster for the City, we've got a meeting about it tomorrow morning, even I've been told to attend because we need to get a strategy together for reassuring clients that their money isn't at risk from state interference when the questions start to roll in. Our trump card for keeping the City has always been rule of law, the UK is one of very few countries that lives and dies by rule of law, now the government are undoing all of that for absolutely no gain.

    Also, what evidence do you have that the EU aren't honouring their side of the bargain?

    The thing is, that whether Philip liked it or not, the NI Protocol was specifically included in the Withdrawal Agreement to govern a situation where a future trade agreement wasn't agreed by the end of the Transition Period that might render it redundant. To argue that "the EU aren't honouring their commitments" in relation to any such trade deal is completely irrelevant, whether it is true or not. To argue that the lack of a trade deal is a justification for revisiting the NI Protocol of the WA is completely disingenuous, since arrangements under a no deal scenario were its entire purpose. And let's not forget that all the advantages to the UK of the Withdrawal agreement (time to adjust to leave the EU through a transition period, that we have artificially shortened for no benefit) have already been banked. And, of course, almost entirely wasted by all accounts - both in negotiating future arrangements, and preparing for a world in which we have none.

    And utterly ridiculous when THIS GOVERNMENT WAS THE ONE THAT SIGNED THE WITHDRAWAL AGREEMENT! IN THIS PARLIAMENT! Literally 6 months ago. For them of all people to argue that "the deal doesn't make sense" is their responsibility. Nobody else's.

    Still at least we are falling back on WTO terms. That series of international treaties that is our only protection against exploitation from unscrupulous trade competitors... How's Liam Fox's candidacy to lead it coming along at the moment???
  • Dehenna Davison used to think Boris's deal was a "blooming good compromise".

    https://twitter.com/DehennaDavison/status/1184876113698447361
  • The UK looking after the UK involves sorting out a deal with our largest trading partner.
    Eventually. When they're ready to treat us as an equal sovereign neighbour and not a subject in their sphere of influence.
  • https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-8710535/BBC-hold-avoiding-racial-bias-training-session-air-talent-ahead-new-football-season.html

    Tony Blair would now be labelled as using racist language these days....as for describing Traoré as having pace and power....the bloke who looks like a bodybuilder and as Darren Campbell said after working with him one of the fastest individuals he had coached.
  • @Philip_Thompson do you admit now that the deal is rubbish or you still think it's good?

    I think it was ok. Better than Mays deal and good enough for the past 12 months so now we need to sort out the future.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,648

    Should we just let lawyers run the world?
    Yes, of course! We’re awesome!

    😁
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,343
    Look scary, but remember that the peak on the left was probably about 50x higher.
  • I think it was ok. Better than Mays deal and good enough for the past 12 months so now we need to sort out the future.
    So then why change it? This is really poor Philip.
  • My French is rusty, is that hospitalisations not cases?

    Extremely worrying.
  • Eventually. When they're ready to treat us as an equal sovereign neighbour and not a subject in their sphere of influence.
    Oh Philip, you need to lay down and have a nap
This discussion has been closed.