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  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,285
    .
    DougSeal said:

    Not explicitly but people are saying it’s “impossible” to say anything anymore. Of course it’s not. You just have to expect to be roundly criticised.
    I don't think they've said that either!
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    The case for Boris staying is that he (and Cummings) are committed to investment whereas any successor might prefer cuts and austerity.
    The case for him staying is he's just won the biggest majority for about twenty years. It's not about what people who have deep hatred to him and unreasoned bias against him think, it's about the result of General Elections.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192
    MattW said:

    Just having fun.

    You need a farm cat :-)
    Or an underfed one ;)
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Carnyx said:

    Well, IIRC fixings and fittings of buildings are part of them, so eg the Rhodes statue at Oxford would come under that.

    And listing is not just buildings but structures, gardens, etc. as well. And statues in isolation are listed - abundantly:

    https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/results/?searchType=NHLE+Simple&search=statue
    Indeed but none of the statues that have come down [so far] are listed are they? Which makes them a local government matter.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,304
    MaxPB said:

    Yes the point I'm making is that restaurants, pubs, bars, hairdressers etc... can't legally live by a 1m rule when the government is sticking with 2m. Day to day interactions are already living by 1m but keeping the regulation at 2m is going to destroy a lot of jobs. The government needs to get a handle on this by the end of next week and start pushing the 1m line so people get used to it before the pubs open.

    There used to be a common and unscrupulous practice in the City whereby a trader would be set a profit target (unlocking big bonus) and at the same time be given risk limits that made the target almost impossible to hit. Trader then had a choice. Forget the target (and accept lower remuneration) OR go for it and bust the risk limits where necessary and where the excesses could be disguised somehow.

    Worked great for the bosses. If the trader got away with it, everybody was happy. All made money. But if the limit breaking was discovered by compliance, the bosses could shrug and say "well rules are rules and he broke them." Trader duly sacked. Bosses hire another. Rinse and repeat.

    I'm reminded of this by the debate over the 2m rule. If the government stick with 2m knowing full well that businesses need 1m in order to make money, they are doing what those bosses in the City used to do. And many businesses will face the same unpalatable choice as the trader.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    I'm sure the eventual public inquiry will establish exactly what occurred in this unprecendented global pandemic and the extent to which deaths could or could not have been avoided. Of course, you have all the answers now, thanks to your handy time machine.

    'Living humans or statues' isn't a mutually-exclusive choice, by the way. One can want to save as many lives as possible from the pandemic, as the Government is doing, while deploring the violence and cultural vandalism of the far left. People have noticed what they're about, and it doesn't look as though they like it...
    But you seem to have no interest in the lives avoidably lost and the appalling performance of this government in the pandemic as compared with other developed countries.

    It’s the sheer lack of curiosity of Conservatives about this atrocious failure that is most shocking. They would literally rather see the deaths of tens of thousands ignored rather than admit to any failings on the government’s part.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,644
    edited June 2020
    isam said:

    The case for him staying is he's just won the biggest majority for about twenty years. It's not about what people who have deep hatred to him and unreasoned bias against him think, it's about the result of General Elections.
    You miss the point since the only people who can oust the Prime Minister are Conservative MPs and (in case of health or disenchantment with the job) Boris himself.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,290
    ClippP said:

    The problem that the Conservatives have is finding somebody to replace Johnson. The sad reality is that they do not have anybody.

    The first quality they need, in m opinion, is to find somebody who is trustworthy. The present gang of cheats, chancers and short-term opportunists has contaminated the entire brand.

    So a question for the PB Tories.... Which Tory politician do you think the public actually trusts?
    Rishi Sunak but at most he could do a Major 1992 if Boris like Thatcher got really unpopular and Labour took a big poll lead
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,915
    Pulpstar said:

    I was thinking about that on my run this morning

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEBXuhqVSws

    Gone with the wind currently Amazon top selling DVD.
    A combination of Paul Morley's publicity skills and Trevor Horn's epic production.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,192
    Nigelb said:


    The difference between 2m and 1m is probably also the difference between a location which is high risk for superspreading events and one which is not.
    I agree that the 2m distancing rule can't survive for long owing to economic necessity, but abandoning it too soon (and we're talking a matter of perhaps a couple of weeks) is an unnecessary risk.

    And it might need to be re-instituted later in the year. That would certainly be vastly preferable to a second lockdown, and with large scale testing now in place, along with track/trace/isolate, probably almost as effective.

    However, knowing our govts fine eye for detail, they will probably mandate that anyone eating in restaurants must wear a mask at all times... ;)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,239
    People are going to have to get used to the idea of switching between 2m and 1m, perhaps more than once, I think.
    Quite obviously government will try to ease restriction as soon as they can - but might well have to re-impose them, if case numbers head upwards again at a later date.
    Anything but another lockdown.

    Uncertainty over 2-metre distancing rule in England 'causing chaos'
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/11/uncertainty-over-2-metre-distancing-rule-in-england-causing-chaos
    ...While retail groups say a 1-metre distance would be a boost for shops, they have expressed frustration at the lack of notice. Some council leaders, meanwhile, said confusion over the measure epitomised a chaotic central government approach to the pandemic.

    In the past few weeks, the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (MHCLG) has distributed grants from the £50m Reopening High Streets Safely Fund to councils across England, to be used on signage and barriers on streets and in shops.

    Tudor Evans, the Labour leader of Plymouth council, which has received £235,000 from the fund, said it had been used for large numbers of discs on street surfaces indicating 2-metre distances, and to help hundreds of shops prepare. These measures would need to be redone if the distance was reduced.

    “If it changes in the next few weeks it will make people angry,” Evans said. “A lot of people have sent a lot of time in the public sector, and in the private sector, to get things ready for opening up in accordance with government regulations. To have this uncertainty, this close to opening, is really an emblem for how chaotic the government’s handling has been.”

    Andrew Goodacre, the chief executive of the British Independent Retailers Association, which represents smaller shops, said any reduction would receive a mixed reception from members...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,556
    Pulpstar said:

    I was thinking about that on my run this morning

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEBXuhqVSws

    Gone with the wind currently Amazon top selling DVD.
    The drummer in that vid saying: "Calm down, calm down" (in a Scouse accent).
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,584
    HYUFD said:
    Government popularity, that's the key. "IF" the government popularity figures continue to trend south the Conservatives will have a problem in 2024.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,752

    Indeed but none of the statues that have come down [so far] are listed are they? Which makes them a local government matter.
    Both the statues in Bristol and West India Quay were listed.

    I thought we'd done that one to death already.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,639
    edited June 2020

    I'm sure the eventual public inquiry will establish exactly what occurred in this unprecendented global pandemic and the extent to which deaths could or could not have been avoided. Of course, you have all the answers now, thanks to your handy time machine.

    'Living humans or statues' isn't a mutually-exclusive choice, by the way. One can want to save as many lives as possible from the pandemic, as the Government is doing, while deploring the violence and cultural vandalism of the far left. People have noticed what they're about, and it doesn't look as though they like it...
    You base your entire paranoid polemic on one tweet from one Labour MP and a single Survation Poll that still shows your party’s support far more than halved in a month. As for “time machine” - you forget I borrowed yours, you know the one you use to predict elections? In the meantime the below tweets represent the actual views of the Labour Party - and most people in this country

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1269949806463668224

    https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1269919037426929664

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MattW said:

    Both the statues in Bristol and West India Quay were listed.

    I thought we'd done that one to death already.
    The one in West India Quay had been moved repeatedly already so when was it listed from?
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited June 2020

    But you seem to have no interest in the lives avoidably lost and the appalling performance of this government in the pandemic as compared with other developed countries.

    It’s the sheer lack of curiosity of Conservatives about this atrocious failure that is most shocking. They would literally rather see the deaths of tens of thousands ignored rather than admit to any failings on the government’s part.
    Ignored? Which bit of 'public inquiry' was unclear? That's where the truth will come out, as opposed to throwing every bit of shit at the government to see what sticks when we're still only months into the pandemic and basic scientific facts about e.g. how it spreads, who gets infected, how and why they do, what immunity is obtained, remain a mystery.

    In the meantime, I'm sure our scientists are absorbing all the new published literature and the progress of other countries and making recommendations to the government, which then decides how to act on them. That's literally all anyone can do.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,239
    A crowdfunding appeal for judicial review of the government's actions in discharging patients into care homes, from a bereaved daughter:

    Help me hold the government to account for Covid-19 care home deaths
    https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/care-home-deaths/

    Had government held its hands up to the mistake, I wouldn't bother, but given the circumstances, I shall be contributing.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281

    Zeroth, like the law of thermodynamics.

    Once depressingly summed up as:

    1) You have to play
    2) You can’t cheat
    3) You can’t break even
    4) You can’t get out of the game.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,161
    Telegraph: Britain is a ship of fools heading for the rocks

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/06/12/britain-ship-fools-heading-rocks/
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,938
    No self-respecting brexiteer should have adopted the 2-metre rule.
    That is to kow-tow to Napoleonic measurements. It should always have been the 2-arm's-length rule, in conformity with good old Anglo-Saxon measurement units based on body parts. Everyone would have understood that.
    I mean this seriously.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,899
    Pulpstar said:

    Has your accent changed at all ?
    A little, however my Dad is from North Shields so my accent was never very Brummie...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,676

    Free speech in action. The other side of the debate can speak freely if they're unhappy too.

    The logical compromise is to do what Disney have done with Dumbo. They say at the end of the description before you press play: "This film is as originally recorded. It may contain cultural stereotypes." Then the film is 100% as originally recorded, unaltered. Job done.
    As you know the silent majority will stay silent until election day. We will have our revenge on this mob you seem to have joined.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,290

    Telegraph: Britain is a ship of fools heading for the rocks

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/06/12/britain-ship-fools-heading-rocks/

    The Telegraph wants lockdown ended asap, no surprise
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    Nigelb said:

    A crowdfunding appeal for judicial review of the government's actions in discharging patients into care homes, from a bereaved daughter:

    Help me hold the government to account for Covid-19 care home deaths
    https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/care-home-deaths/

    Had government held its hands up to the mistake, I wouldn't bother, but given the circumstances, I shall be contributing.

    What remedy is she seeking?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    geoffw said:

    No self-respecting brexiteer should have adopted the 2-metre rule.
    That is to kow-tow to Napoleonic measurements. It should always have been the 2-arm's-length rule, in conformity with good old Anglo-Saxon measurement units based on body parts. Everyone would have understood that.
    I mean this seriously.

    Should we have a biblical flood, would your ark need to be made from gopher wood?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,899
    HYUFD said:

    The Telegraph wants lockdown ended asap, no surprise
    You sound like a Corbynista - everyone and everything has a negative agenda against you.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,639
    edited June 2020
    So the strategy of dividing communities by setting up straw men of “cultural vandalism” has worked as the right brings out their Freikorps

    https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/1271370405522010114
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MaxPB said:

    As you know the silent majority will stay silent until election day. We will have our revenge on this mob you seem to have joined.
    You think putting a phrase like "This film is as originally recorded. It may contain cultural stereotypes" is the action of a mob?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,752
    edited June 2020

    The one in West India Quay had been moved repeatedly already so when was it listed from?
    I think that's a non-question.

    It is (or was, until Tower Hamlets moved it) in its original position, and it is in the listing, and the law says that items included in a listing are listed.

    Clearly, since it is in the listing it was either in it since the list item was created, or the item has been edited 1997 (ish?) when the statue was returned.

    In either case it is included.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    DougSeal said:

    You base your entire paranoid polemic on one tweet from one Labour MP and a single Survation Poll that still shows your party’s support far more than halved in a month. As for “time machine” - you forget I borrowed yours, you know the one you use to predict elections? In the meantime the below tweets represent the actual views of the Labour Party - and most people in this country

    https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1269949806463668224

    https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1269919037426929664

    David Lammy has - to my amazement - won my respect on this occasion. He explicitly said that he doesn't condone violence and riots AND that he would not march with BLM because that would make him a hypocrite after criticizing Cummings.

    As for Starmer, on the other hand, actions speak louder than words. Two days after the illegal actions of that mob, he and dozens of Labour MPs put out photos of themselves kneeling in support of the protesters.

    If they didn't mean to lend their implicit support to illegal acts of violence then literally kneeling before a movement that had perpetrated them very publicly a couple of days earlier was a funny way of showing it...
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,956
    edited June 2020
    HYUFD said:

    Rishi Sunak but at most he could do a Major 1992 if Boris like Thatcher got really unpopular and Labour took a big poll lead
    So far all he has done is to throw (other people´s) money around and be popular. And also to do whatever Cummings tells him to do. He has done nothing I can see to demonstrate any trustworthiness.

    To do this he surely needs to stand up for some principles, even though it is to his own personal disadvantage. Think of Churchill in the wilderness years.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,421
    edited June 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    Of course, post-war Britain is now very much history. When I was doing GSCE history in 2001-03, we did up to Watergate. Arguably we could be teaching history up to and including the 1990s now, which could include the Stephen Lawrence case for example.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    Sean_F said:

    While that is true, there is probably very little worthwhile art, literature, film, that is not "problematic" to a greater or lesser extent. Artists, writers, film-makers etc. all have their prejudices, and values change over time.
    I agree.

    Most art is transient. People stop watching things in time.

    Gone with the Wind only became prominent because of a failure to register the copyright. In time people won't watch it, not to Rising Damp, any more than Love Thy Neighbour, for which nobody is asking the box sets.

    Statues, if we are not prepared to remove them, are different. I do not like the idea that the dead should bind the living, indefinitely, in this way. We should have new statues, of people worthy of admiration.

    Why can't we have statues of Alan Turing or Stephen Hawking, of authors or poets? Why only a handful of entertainers?

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,676

    You think putting a phrase like "This film is as originally recorded. It may contain cultural stereotypes" is the action of a mob?
    I think needing to board up the Cenotaph is the action of the mob. People vandalising the monuments to Gandhi and Churchill are actions of the mob. This new wave of censorship will be defeated and those who defeat it will be called every insult under the sun by the mob when we do. Your mob failed to get change by the ballot box in 2019 and now you're taking it to the streets. It's just wrong.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Ignored? Which bit of 'public inquiry' was unclear? That's where the truth will come out, as opposed to throwing every bit of shit at the government to see what sticks when we're still only months into the pandemic and basic scientific facts about e.g. how it spreads, who gets infected, how and why they do, what immunity is obtained, remain a mystery.

    In the meantime, I'm sure our scientists are absorbing all the new published literature and the progress of other countries and making recommendations to the government, which then decides how to act on them. That's literally all anyone can do.
    The government deserves every bit of shit that hits it. It has performed appallingly by international standards in this crisis, causing tens of thousands of avoidable deaths.

    And you blindly support it.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    The government deserves every bit of shit that hits it. It has performed appallingly by international standards in this crisis, causing tens of thousands of avoidable deaths.

    And you blindly support it.
    Blindly? No. I can see the Opposition in the streets, and I'll vote against them with my eyes open come hell or high water.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,938

    Should we have a biblical flood, would your ark need to be made from gopher wood?
    If you can touch someone's fingertips when both are outstretched, or imagine that, then you would know you are at the stipulated limit.
    But I think just one arm's-length should be the rule atm. Most schools, shops, restaurants and workplaces would cope with that.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,308
    Mr. Seal, if statues don't need protecting then why's Churchill's been hidden from view?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Blindly? No. I can see the Opposition in the streets, and I'll vote against them with my eyes open come hell or high water.
    Blindly. You’re more concerned about having a culture war over statues than the enormous pile of corpses that your party is responsible for.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,639

    David Lammy has - to my amazement - won my respect on this occasion. He explicitly said that he doesn't condone violence and riots AND that he would not march with BLM because that would make him a hypocrite after criticizing Cummings.

    As for Starmer, on the other hand, actions speak louder than words. Two days after the illegal actions of that mob, he and dozens of Labour MPs put out photos of themselves kneeling in support of the protesters.

    If they didn't mean to lend their implicit support to illegal acts of violence then literally kneeling before a movement that had perpetrated them very publicly a couple of days earlier was a funny way of showing it...
    They were kneeling in support of a movement protesting the racist torture murder of a black civilian by the police of our closest ally. That is what the protests are about, not some imagined “cultural vandalism”, which is a straw man minor by product emphasised by people such as yourself to divert attention from the real issues that need highlighting. But of course you place an equivalence on preserving the memory of the dead enslavers of Black people rather than the actual lives of their living descendants.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,195
    HYUFD said:

    You voted Tory in 2010, 2015, 2017 and 2019.

    On no definition whatsoever are you a northern Red Wall swing voter who voted for Corbyn and Labour in 2017 but switched to Boris and the Tories in 2019
    HYUFD is a pinko socialist who voted REMAIN in 2016...
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,252
    MaxPB said:

    I think needing to board up the Cenotaph is the action of the mob. People vandalising the monuments to Gandhi and Churchill are actions of the mob. This new wave of censorship will be defeated and those who defeat it will be called every insult under the sun by the mob when we do. Your mob failed to get change by the ballot box in 2019 and now you're taking it to the streets. It's just wrong.
    Gandhi must fall. Admittedly, I wonder if how much of this just people trolling

    https://indianexpress.com/article/world/standoff-over-gandhi-statue-in-uk-city-of-leicester-6454499/
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,592
    MaxPB said:

    As you know the silent majority will stay silent until election day. We will have our revenge on this mob you seem to have joined.
    https://twitter.com/niall_gooch/status/1271377675584708608
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MattW said:

    I think that's a non-question.

    It is (or was, until Tower Hamlets moved it) in its original position, and it is in the listing, and the law says that items included in a listing are listed.

    Clearly, since it is in the listing it was either in it since the list item was created, or the item has been edited 1997 (ish?) when the statue was returned.

    In either case it is included.
    Do you have a link to the listing? I thought it was said that the building was listed and some erroneously though that included the statue automatically which it doesn't.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,304
    DougSeal said:

    So the strategy of dividing communities by setting up straw men of “cultural vandalism” has worked as the right brings out their Freikorps

    https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/1271370405522010114

    The Democratic Football Lads Alliance?

    They do sound like a bunch of culture vultures.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MaxPB said:

    I think needing to board up the Cenotaph is the action of the mob. People vandalising the monuments to Gandhi and Churchill are actions of the mob. This new wave of censorship will be defeated and those who defeat it will be called every insult under the sun by the mob when we do. Your mob failed to get change by the ballot box in 2019 and now you're taking it to the streets. It's just wrong.
    I don't support actions against the Cenotaph, or Gandhi, or Churchill so why are you associating me with that? I've not supported that.

    I got what I voted for in 2019.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,304
    Nigelb said:

    A crowdfunding appeal for judicial review of the government's actions in discharging patients into care homes, from a bereaved daughter:

    Help me hold the government to account for Covid-19 care home deaths
    https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/care-home-deaths/

    Had government held its hands up to the mistake, I wouldn't bother, but given the circumstances, I shall be contributing.

    Government need to be careful they do not stray into 'cover up worse than the crime' territory.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,267
    Nigelb said:

    A crowdfunding appeal for judicial review of the government's actions in discharging patients into care homes, from a bereaved daughter:

    Help me hold the government to account for Covid-19 care home deaths
    https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/care-home-deaths/

    Had government held its hands up to the mistake, I wouldn't bother, but given the circumstances, I shall be contributing.

    I`m not clear about the "discharging patients into care homes" thing. When elderly people go into care homes the most common route has always been via hospitals. Obvious really. It is a clinical decision made at the hospitals for each patient, nothing to do with the government.

    Was there a specific directive from government to discharge patients from hospitals to care homes as a general policy - rather than leaving it to doctors to assess each case as has always been the case?

    This is plausible, I guess, due to lack of capacity in the hospitals maybe? Is there evidence of this specific directive?

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,676

    I don't support actions against the Cenotaph, or Gandhi, or Churchill so why are you associating me with that? I've not supported that.

    I got what I voted for in 2019.
    It's all part and parcel. When I voted to leave I accepted the fact that I was siding with a lot of racists. I had to make peace with that before I voted and I think the societal change will be a huge net positive for the nation, obviously others disagree. You need to make peace with the fact that your mob won't stop until they have enacted their year zero bullshit. This is what you support.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    kinabalu said:

    The Democratic Football Lads Alliance?

    They do sound like a bunch of culture vultures.
    Compared to the people who want to destroy monuments, their cultural sense is indeed infinitely superior.

    Well done, my lefty friends - you've managed to gift the moral high ground to the 'Democratic Football Lads Alliance', of all people!

    That's an own goal of impressive proportions.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    Stocky said:

    I`m not clear about the "discharging patients into care homes" thing. When elderly people go into care homes the most common route has always been via hospitals. Obvious really. It is a clinical decision made at the hospitals for each patient, nothing to do with the government.

    Was there a specific directive from government to discharge patients from hospitals to care homes as a general policy - rather than leaving it to doctors to assess each case as has always been the case?

    This is plausible, I guess, due to lack of capacity in the hospitals maybe? Is there evidence of this specific directive?

    There is some discussion about the details to be had. However the Trusts I work with formed the view, based on their own assessment of capacity and the view provided to them by PHE and NHSE, and the DHSC, was that they should wherever possible look to discharge patients and free up beds.

  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    For all Scotts continuing doom and gloom (it has ever been thus) the stock market is up 1.29% as is the pound v the euro and dollar

    Only 2.5 cents lower than a month ago for £/€
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2020
    kinabalu said:

    The Democratic Football Lads Alliance?

    They do sound like a bunch of culture vultures.
    Divide and conquer, it's the route to power. The marxists behind BLM know it well. The pawns are attacking each other
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,752
    edited June 2020

    Do you have a link to the listing? I thought it was said that the building was listed and some erroneously though that included the statue automatically which it doesn't.
    List Entry is here:
    https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1242440

    Law defining inclusion is here:
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/9/section/1

    Quote of whole of sub-section 5 (you being a detail man), I don't see too much doubt here, but others may differ. IIRC there is some case law around the meaning of "fixed to" and "part of the land". If something is temporarily removed in 1943 (presumably for protection from the Germans !) and restored to to the same position some time later, is that still "part of the land"?
    --------------------------

    (5)In this Act “listed building” means a building which is for the time being included in a list compiled or approved by the Secretary of State under this section; and for the purposes of this Act—

    (a) any object or structure fixed to the building;

    (b) any object or structure within the curtilage of the building which, although not fixed to the building, forms part of the land and has done so since before lst July 1948,shall [F4, subject to subsection (5A)(a),] be treated as part of the building.

    [F5(5A)In a list compiled or approved under this section, an entry for a building situated in England may provide—

    (a) that an object or structure mentioned in subsection (5)(a) or (b) is not to be treated as part of the building for the purposes of this Act;

    (b) that any part or feature of the building is not of special architectural or historic interest.]

    (6) Schedule 1 shall have effect for the purpose of making provision as to the treatment as listed buildings of certain buildings formerly subject to building preservation orders.
    -------------

    It's tempting to report the offence to the authorities, just to get some more clarity.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,195
    edited June 2020
    MaxPB said:


    I think needing to board up the Cenotaph is the action of the mob. People vandalising the monuments to Gandhi and Churchill are actions of the mob.

    Or mabe they object to Gandhi's vegetarianism and pacificism?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,556

    I don't support actions against the Cenotaph, or Gandhi, or Churchill so why are you associating me with that? I've not supported that.

    I got what I voted for in 2019.
    A government subservient to their EU masters. As we are beginning to see today.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    edited June 2020
    The one thing I noticed with opposition leader scores is that once you drop, you pretty much stay dropped.

    From memory, there's two recent historical exceptions and they are explicable by the same rationale.

    Cameron dropped during the Brown bounce/floods, but as both a new leader bounce and bad weather were always ever going to be transient, he recovered. Corbyn bounced post-2017 but, again, as that was unrelated to anything fundamental, back down he went.

    In fact, the data is here:

    NEW: Keir Starmer scores the highest satisfaction ratings *ever* of an opposition leader on record, equalling Blair's record of +31 in Dec 1994.

    Labour goes from the opposition leader with the worst ever ratings to one with tied best ratings! pic.twitter.com/xQmO1RHGkw

    — Dylan Spielman (@DylanSpielman) June 12, 2020
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,304
    Sean_F said:

    While that is true, there is probably very little worthwhile art, literature, film, that is not "problematic" to a greater or lesser extent. Artists, writers, film-makers etc. all have their prejudices, and values change over time.
    This is probably true if "problematic" means not fully in line with today's prevailing mores. However if challenged to come up with a list of great artistic works which feature crass racist stereotypes presented uncritically, I think it would be a short one. Or perhaps I should say I hope it would be, since I have never tried to do it.
  • I think some people are getting ahead of themselves in writing off Boris. The government has had a rough patch but so have other governments in the past such as Thatcher over Westland and Blair over Dr David Kelly.

    This crisis has been going on for months now and it must be exhausting for those in charge before you add in the fact that Boris and Hancock have been ill and Boris has a new baby.

    If the crisis starts to abate over the summer then I hope Boris will take his paternity leave and the Government can come back with renewed vigour in the autumn.

    As for an enquiry, I'm sure there will be one, which will take years to report (certainly past the next election).

    I also think people are getting ahead of themselves over Trump. If the election was tomorrow then I have no doubt Biden would win. However, the election is still 5 months away and a lot can change in that time.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited June 2020
    MaxPB said:

    It's all part and parcel. When I voted to leave I accepted the fact that I was siding with a lot of racists. I had to make peace with that before I voted and I think the societal change will be a huge net positive for the nation, obviously others disagree. You need to make peace with the fact that your mob won't stop until they have enacted their year zero bullshit. This is what you support.
    I disagree. I have never accepted Guilt by Association.

    When I voted to Leave I didn't accept or make peace that I was siding with racists. I was doing what I thought was right and if for completely different reasons racists did the same thing then so be it. I was not siding with them.

    Same here. I support the removal of slave traders. I supported the removal of slave traders before this erupted so was I supposed to change my mind on that?

    I don't support mob violence, I don't support attacks against the Cenotaph or Gandhi or Churchill. I don't support attacks against the Police.

    What you are suggesting is like saying that if I see someone I dislike stop their car at a pedestrian crossing while a mother is pushing a baby then I should drive through it or I'd be doing the same as those I dislike.

    The right thing to do is still the right thing to do even if the wrong people support it.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited June 2020
    DougSeal said:

    They were kneeling in support of a movement protesting the racist torture murder of a black civilian by the police of our closest ally. That is what the protests are about, not some imagined “cultural vandalism”, which is a straw man minor by product emphasised by people such as yourself to divert attention from the real issues that need highlighting. But of course you place an equivalence on preserving the memory of the dead enslavers of Black people rather than the actual lives of their living descendants.
    There is literally no comparison between the US and UK on this score, so importing the context of their racial conflicts to this country makes absolutely no sense. Here are the figures to prove it:

    Since 1870, police forces in Great Britain have killed 220 people. Three of them were in 2019, and one in 2018.

    In the US, in 2019, 1,098 people were killed by police. That's 5x as many deaths caused by police in 2019 as in the last 150 years in the UK!

    Funny how the USA is suddenly our 'closest ally' for lefties when they want to import their cultural conflicts, but they want absolutely nothing to do with them at any other time...
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,752
    Sean_F said:

    Gandhi must fall. Admittedly, I wonder if how much of this just people trolling

    https://indianexpress.com/article/world/standoff-over-gandhi-statue-in-uk-city-of-leicester-6454499/
    Gandhi has already been removed from various Universities in Africa. This one in Ghana had been unveiled in 2016 by the PM of India.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-46552614
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,195
    kinabalu said:

    The Democratic Football Lads Alliance?

    They do sound like a bunch of culture vultures.
    Alliance of Democratic Football Lads!

    Democratic Football Lads Alliance :lol:
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,930
    Sandpit said:

    There's a very long list of censored Eminem songs, especially on radio and TV. My favourite beeped out words being "King" and "Head". Possibly the greatest lyrical genius of the past 20 years.
    A curious one is 'Gay Bar' by Electric Six. The radio edit preserves the lyric 'I've got something to put in you' but blanks out 'Start a nuclear war'. Why?
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Interesting comment from Ireland:

    The Republic of Ireland will not enter full lockdown again even if there is a second wave of the virus, the country’s chief medical officer says - despite EU health experts warning that further lockdowns could be needed.

    Dr Tony Holohan says that as the country knows more about Covid-19 than it did in March, when restrictions were first introduced, it will be able to take a different course.

    “I wouldn’t be anticipating at this point in time that we would move back to blanket closures in the way we did in March,” he told Irish state broadcaster RTE.

    “People understand more about the disease, the risks and how they can protect themselves when it comes to hand hygiene and respiratory etiquette.

    “If a resurgence of the disease happened or a second wave, we would know what specific measures to take, having done our work proactively."
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MattW said:

    List Entry is here:
    https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1242440

    Law defining inclusion is here:
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/9/section/1

    Quote of whole of sub-section 5 (you being a detail man), I don't see too much doubt here, but others may differ. IIRC there is some case law around the meaning of "fixed to" and "part of the land". If something is temporarily removed in 1943 (presumably for protection from the Germans !) and restored to to the same position some time later, is that still "part of the land"?
    --------------------------

    (5)In this Act “listed building” means a building which is for the time being included in a list compiled or approved by the Secretary of State under this section; and for the purposes of this Act—

    (a) any object or structure fixed to the building;

    (b) any object or structure within the curtilage of the building which, although not fixed to the building, forms part of the land and has done so since before lst July 1948,shall [F4, subject to subsection (5A)(a),] be treated as part of the building.

    [F5(5A)In a list compiled or approved under this section, an entry for a building situated in England may provide—

    (a) that an object or structure mentioned in subsection (5)(a) or (b) is not to be treated as part of the building for the purposes of this Act;

    (b) that any part or feature of the building is not of special architectural or historic interest.]

    (6) Schedule 1 shall have effect for the purpose of making provision as to the treatment as listed buildings of certain buildings formerly subject to building preservation orders.
    -------------

    It's tempting to report the offence to the authorities, just to get some more clarity.
    Under 5b the statue wouldn't be covered since it's not been there continually since 1948. However it appears the listing was amended in 2007 and does specifically refer to the statue. That's news to me, people were previously saying that simply the building being listed was sufficient (it isn't)
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    A curious one is 'Gay Bar' by Electric Six. The radio edit preserves the lyric 'I've got something to put in you' but blanks out 'Start a nuclear war'. Why?
    I don't think radio lyrics are permitted to promote violence. That's an overly literal interpretation.

    Across the Pond it might be different. They are far more bothered by sex than violence.
  • SurreySurrey Posts: 190
    In a sign of what may be to come if Trump remains in office:

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1271252020473638912

    The price of a Trump win has drifted to 2.45. His unity speech is now planned for 19 June, "Juneteenth", in Tulsa, Oklahoma. How the Democrats must have punched the air with joy when they heard that. Seriously, how can it go right? The greatest unity candidate the world has ever seen has already hugged and kissed the Union flag, so if he doesn't want to be biased he's got one more to go:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOSaJhRDCDI#t=17s


  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,752
    edited June 2020
    MattW said:

    Gandhi has already been removed from various Universities in Africa. This one in Ghana had been unveiled in 2016 by the PM of India.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-46552614

    Another tempting one is to submit Paddington Bear to the offence map, because "Darkest Peru" is obviously a colonial and racist sentiment, coined in the 1950s.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,304

    Compared to the people who want to destroy monuments, their cultural sense is indeed infinitely superior.

    Well done, my lefty friends - you've managed to gift the moral high ground to the 'Democratic Football Lads Alliance', of all people!

    That's an own goal of impressive proportions.
    Something tells me I am slightly more likely to go on a BLM demo than you are to get down and dirty with the Democratic Football Lads Alliance.

    And this should tell you something, I think.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited June 2020
    kinabalu said:

    Something tells me I am slightly more likely to go on a BLM demo than you are to get down and dirty with the Democratic Football Lads Alliance.

    And this should tell you something, I think.
    That I don't like football?
  • kingbongokingbongo Posts: 393
    tlg86 said:

    Of course, post-war Britain is now very much history. When I was doing GSCE history in 2001-03, we did up to Watergate. Arguably we could be teaching history up to and including the 1990s now, which could include the Stephen Lawrence case for example.
    but that's not really history - when I did A level History we were taught that for any proper perspective to be taken events needed to be at least a hundred years in the past. I think that holds - the 2nd World War for example has already been recast numerous times since by historians - it is only as it drifts towards the 100 year mark are the passions of the events being set aside.

    Teaching postwar development, civics and the importance of a working social contract should obviously be a core part of the national curriculum. Whenever this is attempted though it ends up as a 1 hour sesion which nobody thinks is very important.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,261
    isam said:

    Divide and conquer, it's the route to power. The marxists behind BLM know it well. The pawns are attacking each other
    Didn't Marx say Workers of the World Unite? Strikes me that "Marxist" has come to mean "person I disagree with" for people on the right.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited June 2020

    Didn't Marx say Workers of the World Unite? Strikes me that "Marxist" has come to mean "person I disagree with" for people on the right.
    Maybe I meant communists, sorry.

    The BLM mission statement is very similar to the 1920 outline of communism & the family on Marxist.org though.

    https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

    https://www.marxists.org/archive/kollonta/1920/communism-family.htm
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092


    Under 5b the statue wouldn't be covered since it's not been there continually since 1948. However it appears the listing was amended in 2007 and does specifically refer to the statue. That's news to me, people were previously saying that simply the building being listed was sufficient (it isn't)

    Yep, I was arguing, based on the above, that curtilage listing doesn't apply to the statue, which I still believe is true.

    Afterwards, somebody mentioned that the statue is actually explicitly mentionined in the listing- I checked https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1242440 and indeed, under the "HISTORY" section, which describes the history of the listed building, it says: "A bronze statue of Robert Milligan (c1746-1809, statue 1812), original promoter of the Docks, stands on the North Quay outside the entrance to No. 1 Warehouse, the Museum in Docklands."

    I have no idea whether that actually means the statue is included in the listing or whether the mention is just for historical context. Obviously if it is included then the curtilage argument becomes academic.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    edited June 2020
    I see our right wing posters are still trying to distract everybody from the real issues of the pandemic and the end of transition by talking statues and left wing revolution. Ignore them arguing with them plays right into their hands.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Yep, I was arguing, based on the above, that curtilage listing doesn't apply to the statue, which I still believe is true.

    Afterwards, somebody mentioned that the statue is actually explicitly mentionined in the listing- I checked https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1242440 and indeed, under the "HISTORY" section, which describes the history of the listed building, it says: "A bronze statue of Robert Milligan (c1746-1809, statue 1812), original promoter of the Docks, stands on the North Quay outside the entrance to No. 1 Warehouse, the Museum in Docklands."

    I have no idea whether that actually means the statue is included in the listing or whether the mention is just for historical context. Obviously if it is included then the curtilage argument becomes academic.
    Agreed.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,267

    There is some discussion about the details to be had. However the Trusts I work with formed the view, based on their own assessment of capacity and the view provided to them by PHE and NHSE, and the DHSC, was that they should wherever possible look to discharge patients and free up beds.

    Ok, so a speed up of patient discharges in general. Some to care homes and some back home.

    The care home discharges would have been going to care homes anyway, right?

    This doesn`t seem to be anything to do with the government, or am I missing something? If there was a specific instruction to discharge patients to care homes to free up beds, and some of these discharges wouldn`t normally have been placed in a care home, then this would be the meat of any criticism of the government surely. This is what the media are implying, and it may be true, but where is the evidence?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,915
    edited June 2020
    isam said:
    Quote from the Sumption article:

    "What is a fanatic? The question occurred to me as I tuned in to another performance by Matt Hancock at the No. 10 daily briefing. Whether one agrees with the lockdown or not, the government’s presentation has been lamentable. With his hectoring manner, authoritarian assumptions and snarling threats, Mr Hancock has resembled nothing so much as the petulant headmaster of a third-rate school. You don’t hear the leaders of Germany, France or the Netherlands addressing their fellow citizens like that."
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,195
    Sean_F said:

    Gandhi must fall. Admittedly, I wonder if how much of this just people trolling

    https://indianexpress.com/article/world/standoff-over-gandhi-statue-in-uk-city-of-leicester-6454499/
    Could be subtle anti-Asian racism by the mob?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,322
    Nigelb said:

    The difference between 2m and 1m is probably also the difference between a location which is high risk for superspreading events and one which is not.
    I agree that the 2m distancing rule can't survive for long owing to economic necessity, but abandoning it too soon (and we're talking a matter of perhaps a couple of weeks) is an unnecessary risk.

    And it might need to be re-instituted later in the year. That would certainly be vastly preferable to a second lockdown, and with large scale testing now in place, along with track/trace/isolate, probably almost as effective.
    A couple more weeks (maybe up to July 4th say) should get the community infection levels significantly down (see ONS prevalence survey today - down 50 % on the previous week). Well worth it. Hopefully 2-3 more weeks to get the track and trace (and Ap) working well.

    Definitely worth waiting just a bit longer.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,786
    Sturgeon and Drakesford write joint letter to Boris demanding an extension to transistion

    Sturgeon is consistent but Drakesford ignoring Wales vote to leave is brave
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,267
    nichomar said:

    I see our right wing posters are still trying to distract everybody from the real issues of the pandemic and the end of transition by talking statues and left wing revolution. Ignore them arguing with them plays right into their hands.

    Well - it was BLM protesters (vandals) who were/are "trying to distract everybody from the real issues of the pandemic and the end of transition by talking statues and left wing revolution".
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,304
    edited June 2020
    isam said:

    Divide and conquer, it's the route to power. The marxists behind BLM know it well. The pawns are attacking each other
    But who are the puppet masters pulling the strings of the DFLA* and what political philosophy do they espouse?

    * The acronym confers a little more gravitas, I feel, so I'm awarding them it for balance viz a vis BLM. "The DFLA" smacks of living rough in the forests of England, tooled up and waiting for the call. Serious business.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,261
    isam said:
    He used to work for Keith Joseph, so I assume he is a Tory or at least used to be. He helped to write Joseph's infamous Edgbaston speech (in which Joseph warned about letting the poor breed).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,239
    edited June 2020
    Stocky said:

    I`m not clear about the "discharging patients into care homes" thing. When elderly people go into care homes the most common route has always been via hospitals. Obvious really. It is a clinical decision made at the hospitals for each patient, nothing to do with the government.

    Was there a specific directive from government to discharge patients from hospitals to care homes as a general policy - rather than leaving it to doctors to assess each case as has always been the case?

    This is plausible, I guess, due to lack of capacity in the hospitals maybe? Is there evidence of this specific directive?

    Yes.
    It included patients who were or might be infected, but were not seriously ill.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,639
    edited June 2020

    There is literally no comparison between the US and UK on this score, so importing the context of their racial conflicts to this country makes absolutely no sense. Here are the figures to prove it:

    Since 1870, police forces in Great Britain have killed 220 people. Three of them were in 2019, and one in 2018.

    In the US, in 2019, 1,098 people were killed by police. That's 5x as many deaths caused by police in 2019 as in the last 150 years in the UK!

    Funny how the USA is suddenly our 'closest ally' for lefties when they want to import their cultural conflicts, but they want absolutely nothing to do with them at any other time...
    So protesting what happens in other countries is not permissible? Black people should only care about what happens here? As for the UK, you are more than selective.

    Azelle Rodney and Jean Charles de Menezes were killed because of how they looked, the colour of their skin, the latter because he fitted the profile of a "terrorist" in the minds of our boys in blue, simply because he was a little darker in complexion than they liked.

    A massively disproportionate number of people of colour also die in police custody here - between 1990 and 2014 380 deaths in police custody in England and Wales (or as a result of contact with the police) were reported, 69 were from BME communities – 18%. In comparison with white people, black people are six times more likely to be stopped and searched while Asian people are twice as likely to be.

    "Taking the knee" is an alternative to violent protest. The fact that Colin Kaepernick tried it and lost his career means that some people have gone further because, clearly, it didn't work. The actions of Starmer et al are, if anything, an attempt to encourage people to undertake less violent forms of protest by going back to an earlier stage.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,267
    edited June 2020
    Nigelb said:

    Yes.
    it included patients who were or might be infected, but were not seriously ill.
    I assumed that there must be. Can you provide a link?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,639
    edited June 2020
    Deleted
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Sturgeon and Drakesford write joint letter to Boris demanding an extension to transistion

    Sturgeon is consistent but Drakesford ignoring Wales vote to leave is brave

    Johnson should reply perhaps in a politer form than Arkell v Pressdram but to the same effect.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,165

    Didn't Marx say Workers of the World Unite? Strikes me that "Marxist" has come to mean "person I disagree with" for people on the right.
    The Communist Manifesto (which should be mandatory study in all schools) says "Proletarier aller Lander vereinigt Euch" so proletarians rather than workers but you are correct about the contemporary defintion of Marxist. It's just an all purpose pejorative for hard-of-thinking gammons.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,267
    Nigelb said:

    Yes.
    It included patients who were or might be infected, but were not seriously ill.
    So, care homes were used as "hospital overflows". Hmm.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,786
    nichomar said:

    I see our right wing posters are still trying to distract everybody from the real issues of the pandemic and the end of transition by talking statues and left wing revolution. Ignore them arguing with them plays right into their hands.

    No need to play into anyones hands.

    The public can read and see and will come to their own conclusion about Churchill and the Cenotaph being boarded up and violence directed towards the police
This discussion has been closed.