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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As CON MPs get increasingly concerned about Boris the 3/2 that

SystemSystem Posts: 12,169
edited June 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As CON MPs get increasingly concerned about Boris the 3/2 that he won’t be leader at the next election starts to look tempting

With the Tory voting lead dropping sharply in the polls and Boris trailing some way behind Starmer in the leader ratings there have been increasing reports of growing doubts about him amongst Tory MPs. This is what the excellent Stephen Bush writes in today’s I Newspaper:

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    edited June 2020
    Gone next year

    Edit: And Zeroth, like the law of thermodynamics.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,249
    edited June 2020
    First. Again.

    Let's go offtopic from the start. One of the better headlines of the lockdown I have seen:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-52939812/coronavirus-people-harassed-by-rats-during-lockdown

    (There are these things called rat traps, and these other things called cats. Presumably Great Jumping Jolyon does it like Yogi.)

    And praise to Sandy for leaving me "first".
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Does he want the job now? I don’t think this is what he signed up for.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    edited June 2020
    FPT:
    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    Should The Dam Busters be edited/removed?

    I've just watched the Major scene - it's fine in my opinion, but some people are sensitive to language.
    You could make a perfectly fine Dambusters movie without anyone addressing the dog by name. You don’t even have to rename it or edit it out. Just have everyone referring to it as “good boy” or “your lab”.
    Perhaps, but why should historical work be altered to fit with modern sensitivities? I think people should be able to choose to watch what they like, perhaps with a warning about content that some may find offensive.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Debating what Cummings said or didn't say is a distraction (I wasn't one of those who obsessed about his private arrangements either). One needs to look at Government policy as it actually emerged. It looks as though the late lockdown was a tragic error (notably, Johnson hasn't denied it, just said it's too soon to judge).

    The situation was undeniably difficult, and there was lots of conflicting advice. I expect that despite the thousands of deaths apparently arising, many people might forgive a mistake. What they would not forgive is doing the same thing *again* by over-hasty opening up for political reasons. We are really quite close to bringing the pandemic right down. It would be quite mad to put that at risk so that people can mingle freely in July rather than September. If that difference means that otherwise healthy businesses would go under, then help the businesses directly - don't extend the pandemic so that the Dog & Duck can have 100 customers.

    I agree Nick but do we give all the protest marches a free pass

    It is impossible to enforce social distancing but I have no idea just how these marches will reflect in the R rate over the next three weeks

    If R remains below 1 by the end of the month I expect Boris will reduce the 2 metre rule by mid July and open the leisure industry including pubs, restaurants, hotels, caravan parks etc
    It might be too late by then for a lot of businesses.
    I am sure you are right but allowing the summer to pass the leisue industry by will be the ultimate disaster
    I'm suggesting we do the opposite and get everything open now. Put a 1m rule in place and get on with it.
    In reality there's little real world perceivable difference between saying 1m and 2m.

    How many people have got a tape measure out and marked out 2 metres? Maybe in checkout queues but for the rest of the time in normal life it just means to people "keep a gap" - and that gap is very frequently under 2 metres already.
    The difference is between pubs, restaurants, cafés and bars being able to run at 70-80% capacity and 30% capacity. Loads would survive with 1m distancing, almost all will go bankrupt with 2m distancing. In practical terms you're right the difference is not perceptible, but for the specific regulation it's a huge deal for the hospitality sector.
    If you're anally obsessive and mark it out sure. If you trust the public to use common sense, no.

    I very frequently find people coming within 2 metres of me while I'm walking on the street or shopping etc - and I have no doubt it'd be the same in bars. If you say two metres people may stand a metre apart, if you say a metre people will get closer.

    Restaurants with laid out tables to be fair it probably does make more of a real world difference since they're pre spaced out.

    Since the virus spreads more when you're face-to-face but the only people face-to-face at a restaurant table will be those sharing the same table (and thus not distancing) it would make a lot of sense to put tables 1 metre apart side-to-side.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    edited June 2020
    Boris future depends on his health and how both he and Rishi deal with coming out of lockdown and the measures taken over the next few months and of course ending transition

    I still expect he may go due to health reasons by mid 2021 or if his and HMG ratings tank then no doubt letters will be going in to Graham Brady

    However, I am not sure how the BLM issues and the threat to statues, literature and films together will law and order will play out as well, which may sustain his and HMG ratings
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    DougSeal said:

    Does he want the job now? I don’t think this is what he signed up for.

    My guess is Boris will try to get to next year to see if Brexit and Covid-19 are resolved and, at least as importantly, his health recovers.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    FPT re observance of 2 metre spacing. Six feet should have been the specified distance. The ratio of people who instinctively know how far 2 metres is, against those who know how tall is a six foot man, is no doubt a sight less than 52:48.

    In supermarkets, two trolley lengths should have been the specified distance.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Scott_xP said:
    The "Red Wallers" won't exist after the next election. There will no longer be a reason for them to vote Tory now Corbyn is gone, and to a lesser extent, Brexit is "done" (and my, will a lot of them be "done" in a big way!).
    The "Red Wallers" are not unique and despite being a hardcore on economics Tory I'm more of a Red Waller than a Shire Tory.

    I found this article quite interesting. I would definitely 100% side with Liz Truss and the Lidl free marketeers over the Waitrose protectionists - the comparison with the Corn Laws was quite interesting too.

    Personally I think Liz Truss is one of the more impressive and underrated members of the Cabinet.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Debating what Cummings said or didn't say is a distraction (I wasn't one of those who obsessed about his private arrangements either). One needs to look at Government policy as it actually emerged. It looks as though the late lockdown was a tragic error (notably, Johnson hasn't denied it, just said it's too soon to judge).

    The situation was undeniably difficult, and there was lots of conflicting advice. I expect that despite the thousands of deaths apparently arising, many people might forgive a mistake. What they would not forgive is doing the same thing *again* by over-hasty opening up for political reasons. We are really quite close to bringing the pandemic right down. It would be quite mad to put that at risk so that people can mingle freely in July rather than September. If that difference means that otherwise healthy businesses would go under, then help the businesses directly - don't extend the pandemic so that the Dog & Duck can have 100 customers.

    I agree Nick but do we give all the protest marches a free pass

    It is impossible to enforce social distancing but I have no idea just how these marches will reflect in the R rate over the next three weeks

    If R remains below 1 by the end of the month I expect Boris will reduce the 2 metre rule by mid July and open the leisure industry including pubs, restaurants, hotels, caravan parks etc
    It might be too late by then for a lot of businesses.
    I am sure you are right but allowing the summer to pass the leisue industry by will be the ultimate disaster
    I'm suggesting we do the opposite and get everything open now. Put a 1m rule in place and get on with it.
    In reality there's little real world perceivable difference between saying 1m and 2m.

    How many people have got a tape measure out and marked out 2 metres? Maybe in checkout queues but for the rest of the time in normal life it just means to people "keep a gap" - and that gap is very frequently under 2 metres already.
    The difference is between pubs, restaurants, cafés and bars being able to run at 70-80% capacity and 30% capacity. Loads would survive with 1m distancing, almost all will go bankrupt with 2m distancing. In practical terms you're right the difference is not perceptible, but for the specific regulation it's a huge deal for the hospitality sector.
    If you're anally obsessive and mark it out sure. If you trust the public to use common sense, no.

    I very frequently find people coming within 2 metres of me while I'm walking on the street or shopping etc - and I have no doubt it'd be the same in bars. If you say two metres people may stand a metre apart, if you say a metre people will get closer.

    Restaurants with laid out tables to be fair it probably does make more of a real world difference since they're pre spaced out.

    Since the virus spreads more when you're face-to-face but the only people face-to-face at a restaurant table will be those sharing the same table (and thus not distancing) it would make a lot of sense to put tables 1 metre apart side-to-side.
    Yes the point I'm making is that restaurants, pubs, bars, hairdressers etc... can't legally live by a 1m rule when the government is sticking with 2m. Day to day interactions are already living by 1m but keeping the regulation at 2m is going to destroy a lot of jobs. The government needs to get a handle on this by the end of next week and start pushing the 1m line so people get used to it before the pubs open.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102
    For all Scotts continuing doom and gloom (it has ever been thus) the stock market is up 1.29% as is the pound v the euro and dollar
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    Should The Dam Busters be edited/removed?

    I've just watched the Major scene - it's fine in my opinion, but some people are sensitive to language.
    You could make a perfectly fine Dambusters movie without anyone addressing the dog by name. You don’t even have to rename it or edit it out. Just have everyone referring to it as “good boy” or “your lab”.
    Perhaps, but why should historical work be altered to fit with modern sensitivities? I think people should be able to choose to watch what they like, perhaps with a warning about content that some may find offensive.
    I was taking about a remake but historical works are often so edited. Bits are taken out of Shakespeare for performance all the time. Movies are often edited for TV and/or airline viewing. It’s not new.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited June 2020
    I doubt they'll move on him until like a year before the end of the parliament, he may be a bit shit at prime-ministering but he's a talented campaigner, and also probably capable of learning. Wait until Brexit is bedded in and then make the switch if necessary, that way they can put someone in who preserves the Brexit brand if it seems to be a success, or if it's a total clusterfuck, get someone who isn't too closely associated with it and saunter away whistling.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited June 2020

    For all Scotts continuing doom and gloom (it has ever been thus) the stock market is up 1.29% as is the pound v the euro and dollar

    People love to complain but no government has improved the dependency ratio as successfully as this one
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298
    Streaming services like Netflix taking down/editing/consulting on potentially racist comedy and tv shows is an interesting phenomenon.

    It's important to note that governments are *NOT* telling them to do this.
    This is private businesses deciding to do it for themselves.

    Very small state approach which presumably will be welcomed by conservatives ;)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,862
    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    Should The Dam Busters be edited/removed?

    I've just watched the Major scene - it's fine in my opinion, but some people are sensitive to language.
    You could make a perfectly fine Dambusters movie without anyone addressing the dog by name. You don’t even have to rename it or edit it out. Just have everyone referring to it as “good boy” or “your lab”.
    Perhaps, but why should historical work be altered to fit with modern sensitivities? I think people should be able to choose to watch what they like, perhaps with a warning about content that some may find offensive.
    I was taking about a remake but historical works are often so edited. Bits are taken out of Shakespeare for performance all the time. Movies are often edited for TV and/or airline viewing. It’s not new.
    The version of Macbeth that I studied at School didn't even have the first half of the porter's scene, presumably because it was thought too rude for innocent school kids.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Scrap this thread and put it down the memory hole with pre 2020 comedy

    3/2 doesn't exist in any betting persons terminology, it's 6/4 all day long and always will be

    Disgraceful
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    Tories still 6% ahead in the latest poll, unless Labour takes a clear poll lead Boris is going nowhere

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271057897196306433?s=20
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    rkrkrk said:

    Streaming services like Netflix taking down/editing/consulting on potentially racist comedy and tv shows is an interesting phenomenon.

    It's important to note that governments are *NOT* telling them to do this.
    This is private businesses deciding to do it for themselves.

    Very small state approach which presumably will be welcomed by conservatives ;)

    Removing consumer choice certainly will not be welcomed by conservatives no
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    edited June 2020
    I think there's a place for guidance and law to differ with spacing. 1.5 metre restaurant spacing whilst keeping the 2 metre guidance generally.
    There's no reason to relax the 2 metre guidance spacing for queueing for the shops that I can see. In practice it's around 6 feet, which is fine.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    Should The Dam Busters be edited/removed?

    I've just watched the Major scene - it's fine in my opinion, but some people are sensitive to language.
    You could make a perfectly fine Dambusters movie without anyone addressing the dog by name. You don’t even have to rename it or edit it out. Just have everyone referring to it as “good boy” or “your lab”.
    Perhaps, but why should historical work be altered to fit with modern sensitivities? I think people should be able to choose to watch what they like, perhaps with a warning about content that some may find offensive.
    I was taking about a remake but historical works are often so edited. Bits are taken out of Shakespeare for performance all the time. Movies are often edited for TV and/or airline viewing. It’s not new.
    And it's wrong.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rain_Man#Qantas_and_airline_controversy
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    isam said:

    Scrap this thread and put it down the memory hole with pre 2020 comedy

    3/2 doesn't exist in any betting persons terminology, it's 6/4 all day long and always will be

    Disgraceful

    Ed Miliband led Dave on VI AND leader ratings by the way. I wouldn't get too carried away yet.

    Keir bores for England remember
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    Should The Dam Busters be edited/removed?

    I've just watched the Major scene - it's fine in my opinion, but some people are sensitive to language.
    If you refer to "N*gg*r" the dog, the last time I watched it that was dubbed out.

    Gibson walks along jauntily, the dog scampers up and he grins and goes "Hello there beep," - just like when a swear word is beeped out on pre-watershed TV. The c word for example. Happens all the time. Did not ruin the film for me.

    OTOH, when Kanye West perfomed "All Day N*gg*r" at the Brits a few years back, and they bleeped out every time the word featured, that did spoil it. The song was stripped of its power.
    Sometimes when songs get censored it can lead to amusing outcomes.

    I was at University when the Eminem released his song Stan and I remember being in the JCR of my Halls with MTV on and a censored version of Stan came on - with the censored words and phrases silenced. I found it funny and laughed at it towards the end as Stan is driving drunk in the car and pretty much half the song of it was just silenced out. I got some filthy looks shot at me for laughing at it by a couple of girls, I don't think they understood what I'd found funny.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Unless it turns out that his illness has caused him to be permanently disabled, Boris isn't going anywhere, despite the wishful thinking of his opponents. Yes, Covid and its after-effects are going to make the next couple of years a nightmare across the Western world, but that’s unavoidable whoever the leader is, and there’s plenty of opportunity to get back to a semblance of good times by 2024.

    As for ephemeral polls, the current orgy of cultural vandalism has interrupted Labour’s rise as the public wakes up to what the fuck they may be voting into power, as yesterday’s Survation suggests...

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271057897196306433
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,599
    HYUFD said:

    Tories still 6% ahead in the latest poll, unless Labour takes a clear poll lead Boris is going nowhere

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271057897196306433?s=20

    If Boris wasn't quite so invisible at the moment the Tories would probably be further ahead in the polls.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    Scott_xP said:
    The "Red Wallers" won't exist after the next election. There will no longer be a reason for them to vote Tory now Corbyn is gone, and to a lesser extent, Brexit is "done" (and my, will a lot of them be "done" in a big way!).
    The "Red Wallers" are not unique and despite being a hardcore on economics Tory I'm more of a Red Waller than a Shire Tory.

    I found this article quite interesting. I would definitely 100% side with Liz Truss and the Lidl free marketeers over the Waitrose protectionists - the comparison with the Corn Laws was quite interesting too.

    Personally I think Liz Truss is one of the more impressive and underrated members of the Cabinet.
    The red wallers who switched to the Tories voted for Corbyn in 2017, for Boris in 2019.

    The reason they voted Tory was not to stop Corbyn, that was more southern Tory Remainers, it was to deliver Brexit and hard Brexit given most of them want to end free movement
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Tories still 6% ahead in the latest poll, unless Labour takes a clear poll lead Boris is going nowhere

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271057897196306433?s=20

    If Boris wasn't quite so invisible at the moment the Tories would probably be further ahead in the polls.
    It looks like the Cummings bounce is wearing off.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    edited June 2020
    tlg86 said:

    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    Should The Dam Busters be edited/removed?

    I've just watched the Major scene - it's fine in my opinion, but some people are sensitive to language.
    You could make a perfectly fine Dambusters movie without anyone addressing the dog by name. You don’t even have to rename it or edit it out. Just have everyone referring to it as “good boy” or “your lab”.
    Perhaps, but why should historical work be altered to fit with modern sensitivities? I think people should be able to choose to watch what they like, perhaps with a warning about content that some may find offensive.
    I was taking about a remake but historical works are often so edited. Bits are taken out of Shakespeare for performance all the time. Movies are often edited for TV and/or airline viewing. It’s not new.
    And it's wrong.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rain_Man#Qantas_and_airline_controversy
    The name of the dog in Dambusters is not key to the narrative of the whole movie. That’s the difference. You can edit it out with no ill effects. You don’t even have to take the dog or its death out, just its name. The decision of Quantas in that case removed a key scene. The equivalent in Dambusters would be taking out the scene in the theatre when he came up with the idea of measuring height using lamps. Editors exist for a reason.
  • fox327fox327 Posts: 370
    edited June 2020



    If you're anally obsessive and mark it out sure. If you trust the public to use common sense, no.

    I very frequently find people coming within 2 metres of me while I'm walking on the street or shopping etc - and I have no doubt it'd be the same in bars. If you say two metres people may stand a metre apart, if you say a metre people will get closer.

    Restaurants with laid out tables to be fair it probably does make more of a real world difference since they're pre spaced out.

    Since the virus spreads more when you're face-to-face but the only people face-to-face at a restaurant table will be those sharing the same table (and thus not distancing) it would make a lot of sense to put tables 1 metre apart side-to-side.

    Exactly. Saying there is a 2 metre rule is one thing, but enforcing it is another.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,102

    Unless it turns out that his illness has caused him to be permanently disabled, Boris isn't going anywhere, despite the wishful thinking of his opponents. Yes, Covid and its after-effects are going to make the next couple of years a nightmare across the Western world, but that’s unavoidable whoever the leader is, and there’s plenty of opportunity to get back to a semblance of good times by 2024.

    As for ephemeral polls, the current orgy of cultural vandalism has interrupted Labour’s rise as the public wakes up to what the fuck they may be voting into power, as yesterday’s Survation suggests...

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271057897196306433

    I would caution using just one poll showing a conservative improvement

    The next few polls will be interesting as they may or may not confirm a trend and will of course include the schools crisis and the protests
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Debating what Cummings said or didn't say is a distraction (I wasn't one of those who obsessed about his private arrangements either). One needs to look at Government policy as it actually emerged. It looks as though the late lockdown was a tragic error (notably, Johnson hasn't denied it, just said it's too soon to judge).

    The situation was undeniably difficult, and there was lots of conflicting advice. I expect that despite the thousands of deaths apparently arising, many people might forgive a mistake. What they would not forgive is doing the same thing *again* by over-hasty opening up for political reasons. We are really quite close to bringing the pandemic right down. It would be quite mad to put that at risk so that people can mingle freely in July rather than September. If that difference means that otherwise healthy businesses would go under, then help the businesses directly - don't extend the pandemic so that the Dog & Duck can have 100 customers.

    I agree Nick but do we give all the protest marches a free pass

    It is impossible to enforce social distancing but I have no idea just how these marches will reflect in the R rate over the next three weeks

    If R remains below 1 by the end of the month I expect Boris will reduce the 2 metre rule by mid July and open the leisure industry including pubs, restaurants, hotels, caravan parks etc
    It might be too late by then for a lot of businesses.
    I am sure you are right but allowing the summer to pass the leisue industry by will be the ultimate disaster
    I'm suggesting we do the opposite and get everything open now. Put a 1m rule in place and get on with it.
    In reality there's little real world perceivable difference between saying 1m and 2m.

    How many people have got a tape measure out and marked out 2 metres? Maybe in checkout queues but for the rest of the time in normal life it just means to people "keep a gap" - and that gap is very frequently under 2 metres already.
    The difference is between pubs, restaurants, cafés and bars being able to run at 70-80% capacity and 30% capacity. Loads would survive with 1m distancing, almost all will go bankrupt with 2m distancing. In practical terms you're right the difference is not perceptible, but for the specific regulation it's a huge deal for the hospitality sector.
    If you're anally obsessive and mark it out sure. If you trust the public to use common sense, no.

    I very frequently find people coming within 2 metres of me while I'm walking on the street or shopping etc - and I have no doubt it'd be the same in bars. If you say two metres people may stand a metre apart, if you say a metre people will get closer.

    Restaurants with laid out tables to be fair it probably does make more of a real world difference since they're pre spaced out.

    Since the virus spreads more when you're face-to-face but the only people face-to-face at a restaurant table will be those sharing the same table (and thus not distancing) it would make a lot of sense to put tables 1 metre apart side-to-side.
    Yes the point I'm making is that restaurants, pubs, bars, hairdressers etc... can't legally live by a 1m rule when the government is sticking with 2m. Day to day interactions are already living by 1m but keeping the regulation at 2m is going to destroy a lot of jobs. The government needs to get a handle on this by the end of next week and start pushing the 1m line so people get used to it before the pubs open.
    Businesses need to know it more than the public do. Businesses will need to separate tables, chairs etc a set distance. The public will do what they want to do. If I want to talk to a friend in a pub I'll pick how far apart I am, but the fixtures and fittings the pub needs to deal with.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    fox327 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Debating what Cummings said or didn't say is a distraction (I wasn't one of those who obsessed about his private arrangements either). One needs to look at Government policy as it actually emerged. It looks as though the late lockdown was a tragic error (notably, Johnson hasn't denied it, just said it's too soon to judge).

    The situation was undeniably difficult, and there was lots of conflicting advice. I expect that despite the thousands of deaths apparently arising, many people might forgive a mistake. What they would not forgive is doing the same thing *again* by over-hasty opening up for political reasons. We are really quite close to bringing the pandemic right down. It would be quite mad to put that at risk so that people can mingle freely in July rather than September. If that difference means that otherwise healthy businesses would go under, then help the businesses directly - don't extend the pandemic so that the Dog & Duck can have 100 customers.

    I agree Nick but do we give all the protest marches a free pass

    It is impossible to enforce social distancing but I have no idea just how these marches will reflect in the R rate over the next three weeks

    If R remains below 1 by the end of the month I expect Boris will reduce the 2 metre rule by mid July and open the leisure industry including pubs, restaurants, hotels, caravan parks etc
    It might be too late by then for a lot of businesses.
    I am sure you are right but allowing the summer to pass the leisue industry by will be the ultimate disaster
    I'm suggesting we do the opposite and get everything open now. Put a 1m rule in place and get on with it.
    In reality there's little real world perceivable difference between saying 1m and 2m.

    How many people have got a tape measure out and marked out 2 metres? Maybe in checkout queues but for the rest of the time in normal life it just means to people "keep a gap" - and that gap is very frequently under 2 metres already.
    The difference is between pubs, restaurants, cafés and bars being able to run at 70-80% capacity and 30% capacity. Loads would survive with 1m distancing, almost all will go bankrupt with 2m distancing. In practical terms you're right the difference is not perceptible, but for the specific regulation it's a huge deal for the hospitality sector.
    If you're anally obsessive and mark it out sure. If you trust the public to use common sense, no.

    I very frequently find people coming within 2 metres of me while I'm walking on the street or shopping etc - and I have no doubt it'd be the same in bars. If you say two metres people may stand a metre apart, if you say a metre people will get closer.

    Restaurants with laid out tables to be fair it probably does make more of a real world difference since they're pre spaced out.

    Since the virus spreads more when you're face-to-face but the only people face-to-face at a restaurant table will be those sharing the same table (and thus not distancing) it would make a lot of sense to put tables 1 metre apart side-to-side.

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Debating what Cummings said or didn't say is a distraction (I wasn't one of those who obsessed about his private arrangements either). One needs to look at Government policy as it actually emerged. It looks as though the late lockdown was a tragic error (notably, Johnson hasn't denied it, just said it's too soon to judge).

    The situation was undeniably difficult, and there was lots of conflicting advice. I expect that despite the thousands of deaths apparently arising, many people might forgive a mistake. What they would not forgive is doing the same thing *again* by over-hasty opening up for political reasons. We are really quite close to bringing the pandemic right down. It would be quite mad to put that at risk so that people can mingle freely in July rather than September. If that difference means that otherwise healthy businesses would go under, then help the businesses directly - don't extend the pandemic so that the Dog & Duck can have 100 customers.

    I agree Nick but do we give all the protest marches a free pass

    It is impossible to enforce social distancing but I have no idea just how these marches will reflect in the R rate over the next three weeks

    If R remains below 1 by the end of the month I expect Boris will reduce the 2 metre rule by mid July and open the leisure industry including pubs, restaurants, hotels, caravan parks etc
    It might be too late by then for a lot of businesses.
    I am sure you are right but allowing the summer to pass the leisue industry by will be the ultimate disaster
    I'm suggesting we do the opposite and get everything open now. Put a 1m rule in place and get on with it.
    In reality there's little real world perceivable difference between saying 1m and 2m.

    How many people have got a tape measure out and marked out 2 metres? Maybe in checkout queues but for the rest of the time in normal life it just means to people "keep a gap" - and that gap is very frequently under 2 metres already.
    The difference is between pubs, restaurants, cafés and bars being able to run at 70-80% capacity and 30% capacity. Loads would survive with 1m distancing, almost all will go bankrupt with 2m distancing. In practical terms you're right the difference is not perceptible, but for the specific regulation it's a huge deal for the hospitality sector.
    If you're anally obsessive and mark it out sure. If you trust the public to use common sense, no.

    I very frequently find people coming within 2 metres of me while I'm walking on the street or shopping etc - and I have no doubt it'd be the same in bars. If you say two metres people may stand a metre apart, if you say a metre people will get closer.

    Restaurants with laid out tables to be fair it probably does make more of a real world difference since they're pre spaced out.

    Since the virus spreads more when you're face-to-face but the only people face-to-face at a restaurant table will be those sharing the same table (and thus not distancing) it would make a lot of sense to put tables 1 metre apart side-to-side.
    Exactly. Saying there is a 2 metre rule is one thing, but enforcing it is another.
    Indeed. My preferred solution is to advise 2 metres as best practice then trust people to use that information and do with it as they think best.

    If two mates want to sit next to each other and have a conversation in the pub then I don't think the pub or the government should get involved with that.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    MattW said:

    First. Again.

    Let's go offtopic from the start. One of the better headlines of the lockdown I have seen:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-52939812/coronavirus-people-harassed-by-rats-during-lockdown

    (There are these things called rat traps, and these other things called cats. Presumably Great Jumping Jolyon does it like Yogi.)

    And praise to Sandy for leaving me "first".

    I have two cats, and I also have mice in the house. This is probably because they are brought in by the cats who then let them go...
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Unless it turns out that his illness has caused him to be permanently disabled, Boris isn't going anywhere, despite the wishful thinking of his opponents. Yes, Covid and its after-effects are going to make the next couple of years a nightmare across the Western world, but that’s unavoidable whoever the leader is, and there’s plenty of opportunity to get back to a semblance of good times by 2024.

    As for ephemeral polls, the current orgy of cultural vandalism has interrupted Labour’s rise as the public wakes up to what the fuck they may be voting into power, as yesterday’s Survation suggests...

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271057897196306433

    I would caution using just one poll showing a conservative improvement

    The next few polls will be interesting as they may or may not confirm a trend and will of course include the schools crisis and the protests
    Good point, I didn't realise this was the same one that was being posted yesterday.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,378
    DavidL said:

    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    Should The Dam Busters be edited/removed?

    I've just watched the Major scene - it's fine in my opinion, but some people are sensitive to language.
    You could make a perfectly fine Dambusters movie without anyone addressing the dog by name. You don’t even have to rename it or edit it out. Just have everyone referring to it as “good boy” or “your lab”.
    Perhaps, but why should historical work be altered to fit with modern sensitivities? I think people should be able to choose to watch what they like, perhaps with a warning about content that some may find offensive.
    I was taking about a remake but historical works are often so edited. Bits are taken out of Shakespeare for performance all the time. Movies are often edited for TV and/or airline viewing. It’s not new.
    The version of Macbeth that I studied at School didn't even have the first half of the porter's scene, presumably because it was thought too rude for innocent school kids.
    We were allowed to study the porter's scene, much to our mirth. We also did the Miller's Tale for A Level, which attracted considerable criticism at the time.

    Until I read the unexpurgated version a few years ago, I hadn't realised how heavily bowdlerised my school version of The Three Musketeers had been. In places, the misogyny is jaw-dropping.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The "Red Wallers" won't exist after the next election. There will no longer be a reason for them to vote Tory now Corbyn is gone, and to a lesser extent, Brexit is "done" (and my, will a lot of them be "done" in a big way!).
    The "Red Wallers" are not unique and despite being a hardcore on economics Tory I'm more of a Red Waller than a Shire Tory.

    I found this article quite interesting. I would definitely 100% side with Liz Truss and the Lidl free marketeers over the Waitrose protectionists - the comparison with the Corn Laws was quite interesting too.

    Personally I think Liz Truss is one of the more impressive and underrated members of the Cabinet.
    The red wallers who switched to the Tories voted for Corbyn in 2017, for Boris in 2019.

    The reason they voted Tory was not to stop Corbyn, that was more southern Tory Remainers, it was to deliver Brexit and hard Brexit given most of them want to end free movement
    As always, you’re the expert on northern “red wallers” from your flat in Essex.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    rkrkrk said:

    Streaming services like Netflix taking down/editing/consulting on potentially racist comedy and tv shows is an interesting phenomenon.

    It's important to note that governments are *NOT* telling them to do this.
    This is private businesses deciding to do it for themselves.

    Very small state approach which presumably will be welcomed by conservatives ;)

    Businesses are free to do what they want. They're businesses.

    If businesses do something their consumers don't like the consumers can vote with their wallets.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    Should The Dam Busters be edited/removed?

    I've just watched the Major scene - it's fine in my opinion, but some people are sensitive to language.
    You could make a perfectly fine Dambusters movie without anyone addressing the dog by name. You don’t even have to rename it or edit it out. Just have everyone referring to it as “good boy” or “your lab”.
    Perhaps, but why should historical work be altered to fit with modern sensitivities? I think people should be able to choose to watch what they like, perhaps with a warning about content that some may find offensive.
    I was taking about a remake but historical works are often so edited. Bits are taken out of Shakespeare for performance all the time. Movies are often edited for TV and/or airline viewing. It’s not new.
    And it's wrong.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rain_Man#Qantas_and_airline_controversy
    The name of the dog in Dambusters is not key to the narrative of the whole movie. That’s the difference. You can edit it out with no ill effects. You don’t even have to take the dog or its death out, just its name. The decision of Quantas in that case removed a key scene. The equivalent in Dambusters would be taking out the scene in the theatre when he came up with the idea of measuring height using lamps. Editors exist for a reason.
    Whilst that's true, I'm uncomfortable with a blanket ban on words.

    To go back to Fawlty Towers, the use of the n word is part of the joke (on the Major, I might add) so that scene wouldn't really work without it. But I guess that's not enough to save it.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    Johnson staying is very good news for Labour but very bad news for the country. Given that the next election is four years away, I hope the Tories put the country forst. We desperately need a government run by someone with a level of competence and diligence that Johnson does not possess. We also need a PM willing to put the best of the available talent in his or her cabinet. As we know, Johnson will not do that.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The "Red Wallers" won't exist after the next election. There will no longer be a reason for them to vote Tory now Corbyn is gone, and to a lesser extent, Brexit is "done" (and my, will a lot of them be "done" in a big way!).
    The "Red Wallers" are not unique and despite being a hardcore on economics Tory I'm more of a Red Waller than a Shire Tory.

    I found this article quite interesting. I would definitely 100% side with Liz Truss and the Lidl free marketeers over the Waitrose protectionists - the comparison with the Corn Laws was quite interesting too.

    Personally I think Liz Truss is one of the more impressive and underrated members of the Cabinet.
    The red wallers who switched to the Tories voted for Corbyn in 2017, for Boris in 2019.

    The reason they voted Tory was not to stop Corbyn, that was more southern Tory Remainers, it was to deliver Brexit and hard Brexit given most of them want to end free movement
    As always, you’re the expert on northern “red wallers” from your flat in Essex.
    Indeed. I'm actually a Northern Tory, you're a Northerner. HYUFD is . . . ignorable.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    Unless it turns out that his illness has caused him to be permanently disabled, Boris isn't going anywhere, despite the wishful thinking of his opponents. Yes, Covid and its after-effects are going to make the next couple of years a nightmare across the Western world, but that’s unavoidable whoever the leader is, and there’s plenty of opportunity to get back to a semblance of good times by 2024.

    As for ephemeral polls, the current orgy of cultural vandalism has interrupted Labour’s rise as the public wakes up to what the fuck they may be voting into power, as yesterday’s Survation suggests...

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271057897196306433

    I would caution using just one poll showing a conservative improvement

    The next few polls will be interesting as they may or may not confirm a trend and will of course include the schools crisis and the protests
    Oh, absolutely - though since others are using a couple of polls to 'prove' that Boris and the Tories are finished, I think turnabout is fair play. The point is that nothing is going to be decided for years yet, and Labour's polling can fall just as easily as it can rise.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,805
    Mr. Observer, indeed.

    For the Conservatives, party and national interest coincides with the removal of the incumbent PM.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Unless it turns out that his illness has caused him to be permanently disabled, Boris isn't going anywhere, despite the wishful thinking of his opponents. Yes, Covid and its after-effects are going to make the next couple of years a nightmare across the Western world, but that’s unavoidable whoever the leader is, and there’s plenty of opportunity to get back to a semblance of good times by 2024.

    As for ephemeral polls, the current orgy of cultural vandalism has interrupted Labour’s rise as the public wakes up to what the fuck they may be voting into power, as yesterday’s Survation suggests...

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271057897196306433

    One solitary statue of a mass murderer gets unlawfully taken down, the rightists of PB call it an “orgy of cultural vandalism” and imply the Labour Party is to blame. In the meantime, we will have around 60,000 excess deaths as a result of the Government’s muddled response, more than any comparable country on an aggregate or per capita basis, and the worst economic downturn in the industrialised world, but that’s “unavoidable whoever the leader is”. In the words of one commentator here “you couldn’t make it up”.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,405
    fox327 said:



    If you're anally obsessive and mark it out sure. If you trust the public to use common sense, no.

    I very frequently find people coming within 2 metres of me while I'm walking on the street or shopping etc - and I have no doubt it'd be the same in bars. If you say two metres people may stand a metre apart, if you say a metre people will get closer.

    Restaurants with laid out tables to be fair it probably does make more of a real world difference since they're pre spaced out.

    Since the virus spreads more when you're face-to-face but the only people face-to-face at a restaurant table will be those sharing the same table (and thus not distancing) it would make a lot of sense to put tables 1 metre apart side-to-side.

    Exactly. Saying there is a 2 metre rule is one thing, but enforcing it is another.
    The issue here is that if you say 2 metres you can be sure people will try to keep at least 1 metre away from other people, say 1 metre and people will to be a foot away from each other.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    Should The Dam Busters be edited/removed?

    I've just watched the Major scene - it's fine in my opinion, but some people are sensitive to language.
    You could make a perfectly fine Dambusters movie without anyone addressing the dog by name. You don’t even have to rename it or edit it out. Just have everyone referring to it as “good boy” or “your lab”.
    Perhaps, but why should historical work be altered to fit with modern sensitivities? I think people should be able to choose to watch what they like, perhaps with a warning about content that some may find offensive.
    I was taking about a remake but historical works are often so edited. Bits are taken out of Shakespeare for performance all the time. Movies are often edited for TV and/or airline viewing. It’s not new.
    And it's wrong.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rain_Man#Qantas_and_airline_controversy
    The name of the dog in Dambusters is not key to the narrative of the whole movie. That’s the difference. You can edit it out with no ill effects. You don’t even have to take the dog or its death out, just its name. The decision of Quantas in that case removed a key scene. The equivalent in Dambusters would be taking out the scene in the theatre when he came up with the idea of measuring height using lamps. Editors exist for a reason.
    I've often been struck by how indignant some people get about the renaming or denaming of the dog - yet they would be the same people who would complain about how little the young of today know about the heroic era in which Britain stood alone etc. etc. Well, if you show the unexpurgated film, the young of today are for sure going to get a partly negative view!
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,599
    rkrkrk said:

    Streaming services like Netflix taking down/editing/consulting on potentially racist comedy and tv shows is an interesting phenomenon.

    It's important to note that governments are *NOT* telling them to do this.
    This is private businesses deciding to do it for themselves.

    Very small state approach which presumably will be welcomed by conservatives ;)

    They're being bullied into it by a relatively tiny number of activists on social media.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929

    Johnson staying is very good news for Labour but very bad news for the country. Given that the next election is four years away, I hope the Tories put the country forst. We desperately need a government run by someone with a level of competence and diligence that Johnson does not possess. We also need a PM willing to put the best of the available talent in his or her cabinet. As we know, Johnson will not do that.

    The case for Boris staying is that he (and Cummings) are committed to investment whereas any successor might prefer cuts and austerity.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,468

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The "Red Wallers" won't exist after the next election. There will no longer be a reason for them to vote Tory now Corbyn is gone, and to a lesser extent, Brexit is "done" (and my, will a lot of them be "done" in a big way!).
    The "Red Wallers" are not unique and despite being a hardcore on economics Tory I'm more of a Red Waller than a Shire Tory.

    I found this article quite interesting. I would definitely 100% side with Liz Truss and the Lidl free marketeers over the Waitrose protectionists - the comparison with the Corn Laws was quite interesting too.

    Personally I think Liz Truss is one of the more impressive and underrated members of the Cabinet.
    The red wallers who switched to the Tories voted for Corbyn in 2017, for Boris in 2019.

    The reason they voted Tory was not to stop Corbyn, that was more southern Tory Remainers, it was to deliver Brexit and hard Brexit given most of them want to end free movement
    As always, you’re the expert on northern “red wallers” from your flat in Essex.
    Indeed. I'm actually a Northern Tory, you're a Northerner. HYUFD is . . . ignorable.
    I’m actually originally from the West Midlands but I’ve lived in the North East for 10 years now!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    Should The Dam Busters be edited/removed?

    I've just watched the Major scene - it's fine in my opinion, but some people are sensitive to language.
    You could make a perfectly fine Dambusters movie without anyone addressing the dog by name. You don’t even have to rename it or edit it out. Just have everyone referring to it as “good boy” or “your lab”.
    Perhaps, but why should historical work be altered to fit with modern sensitivities? I think people should be able to choose to watch what they like, perhaps with a warning about content that some may find offensive.
    I was taking about a remake but historical works are often so edited. Bits are taken out of Shakespeare for performance all the time. Movies are often edited for TV and/or airline viewing. It’s not new.
    The version of Macbeth that I studied at School didn't even have the first half of the porter's scene, presumably because it was thought too rude for innocent school kids.
    We were allowed to study the porter's scene, much to our mirth. We also did the Miller's Tale for A Level, which attracted considerable criticism at the time.

    Until I read the unexpurgated version a few years ago, I hadn't realised how heavily bowdlerised my school version of The Three Musketeers had been. In places, the misogyny is jaw-dropping.
    It is said there was a similar anguished debate before including the Song of Solomon in the bible.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,599

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    Should The Dam Busters be edited/removed?

    I've just watched the Major scene - it's fine in my opinion, but some people are sensitive to language.
    If you refer to "N*gg*r" the dog, the last time I watched it that was dubbed out.

    Gibson walks along jauntily, the dog scampers up and he grins and goes "Hello there beep," - just like when a swear word is beeped out on pre-watershed TV. The c word for example. Happens all the time. Did not ruin the film for me.

    OTOH, when Kanye West perfomed "All Day N*gg*r" at the Brits a few years back, and they bleeped out every time the word featured, that did spoil it. The song was stripped of its power.
    Sometimes when songs get censored it can lead to amusing outcomes.

    I was at University when the Eminem released his song Stan and I remember being in the JCR of my Halls with MTV on and a censored version of Stan came on - with the censored words and phrases silenced. I found it funny and laughed at it towards the end as Stan is driving drunk in the car and pretty much half the song of it was just silenced out. I got some filthy looks shot at me for laughing at it by a couple of girls, I don't think they understood what I'd found funny.
    There's a very long list of censored Eminem songs, especially on radio and TV. My favourite beeped out words being "King" and "Head". Possibly the greatest lyrical genius of the past 20 years.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,285
    eek said:

    fox327 said:



    If you're anally obsessive and mark it out sure. If you trust the public to use common sense, no.

    I very frequently find people coming within 2 metres of me while I'm walking on the street or shopping etc - and I have no doubt it'd be the same in bars. If you say two metres people may stand a metre apart, if you say a metre people will get closer.

    Restaurants with laid out tables to be fair it probably does make more of a real world difference since they're pre spaced out.

    Since the virus spreads more when you're face-to-face but the only people face-to-face at a restaurant table will be those sharing the same table (and thus not distancing) it would make a lot of sense to put tables 1 metre apart side-to-side.

    Exactly. Saying there is a 2 metre rule is one thing, but enforcing it is another.
    The issue here is that if you say 2 metres you can be sure people will try to keep at least 1 metre away from other people, say 1 metre and people will to be a foot away from each other.
    Tell them it’s 1m: those who don’t have a good grasp of SI units will think it’s one mile...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The "Red Wallers" won't exist after the next election. There will no longer be a reason for them to vote Tory now Corbyn is gone, and to a lesser extent, Brexit is "done" (and my, will a lot of them be "done" in a big way!).
    The "Red Wallers" are not unique and despite being a hardcore on economics Tory I'm more of a Red Waller than a Shire Tory.

    I found this article quite interesting. I would definitely 100% side with Liz Truss and the Lidl free marketeers over the Waitrose protectionists - the comparison with the Corn Laws was quite interesting too.

    Personally I think Liz Truss is one of the more impressive and underrated members of the Cabinet.
    The red wallers who switched to the Tories voted for Corbyn in 2017, for Boris in 2019.

    The reason they voted Tory was not to stop Corbyn, that was more southern Tory Remainers, it was to deliver Brexit and hard Brexit given most of them want to end free movement
    As always, you’re the expert on northern “red wallers” from your flat in Essex.
    Indeed. I'm actually a Northern Tory, you're a Northerner. HYUFD is . . . ignorable.
    I’m actually originally from the West Midlands but I’ve lived in the North East for 10 years now!
    Oh sorry, I thought you were a Geordie :wink:
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Andy_JS said:
    Hopefully never. That's the role of Councils not Central Government.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Unless it turns out that his illness has caused him to be permanently disabled, Boris isn't going anywhere, despite the wishful thinking of his opponents. Yes, Covid and its after-effects are going to make the next couple of years a nightmare across the Western world, but that’s unavoidable whoever the leader is, and there’s plenty of opportunity to get back to a semblance of good times by 2024.

    As for ephemeral polls, the current orgy of cultural vandalism has interrupted Labour’s rise as the public wakes up to what the fuck they may be voting into power, as yesterday’s Survation suggests...

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271057897196306433

    I would caution using just one poll showing a conservative improvement

    The next few polls will be interesting as they may or may not confirm a trend and will of course include the schools crisis and the protests
    Oh, absolutely - though since others are using a couple of polls to 'prove' that Boris and the Tories are finished, I think turnabout is fair play. The point is that nothing is going to be decided for years yet, and Labour's polling can fall just as easily as it can rise.
    Yep, I don't understand the obituaries being written here for Boris. This might all shake out so that the public (rightly, in my opinion) see him as responsible for 10s of thousands of unnecessary deaths through cruelty and incompetence, and (less rightly) associate the toxicity only with the leadership, not the party, and the pressure grows strong enough that he has to go. But it's only a possibility.

    In fact, if Boris' image is tarnished, but not enough to actually force him out, he may end up in the same position as May, clinging on desperately while he tries to redeem his legacy.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Andy_JS said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Streaming services like Netflix taking down/editing/consulting on potentially racist comedy and tv shows is an interesting phenomenon.

    It's important to note that governments are *NOT* telling them to do this.
    This is private businesses deciding to do it for themselves.

    Very small state approach which presumably will be welcomed by conservatives ;)

    They're being bullied into it by a relatively tiny number of activists on social media.
    Free speech in action. The other side of the debate can speak freely if they're unhappy too.

    The logical compromise is to do what Disney have done with Dumbo. They say at the end of the description before you press play: "This film is as originally recorded. It may contain cultural stereotypes." Then the film is 100% as originally recorded, unaltered. Job done.
  • fox327fox327 Posts: 370
    After watching Question Time last night, my impression is that Labour is split and this leaves Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer sitting on the fence. That did not work too well for Jeremy Corbyn at the last election.

    The official Labour leadership are cooperating with the government to some degree, and are not actively opposing the reopening of the economy, schools and society generally. However it is noticable that the Labour representative on Question Time has often appeared online rather than in person. Many Labour people and trades unionists appear to be quite hostile to getting things restarted.

    Also, Labour supporters may find it difficult to campaign in an election as this usually involves going outside, knocking on doors, distributing literature and being seen in public and they seem to be uncomfortable with these activities. To be fair the BLM protesters were out in public, but I am not sure that this type of protest would transfer into campaigning in an election.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885
    edited June 2020

    Andy_JS said:
    Hopefully never. That's the role of Councils not Central Government.
    On the contrary [edit: in part, sorry]. Natural England, English Heritage, and so on.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,929

    MattW said:

    First. Again.

    Let's go offtopic from the start. One of the better headlines of the lockdown I have seen:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-52939812/coronavirus-people-harassed-by-rats-during-lockdown

    (There are these things called rat traps, and these other things called cats. Presumably Great Jumping Jolyon does it like Yogi.)

    And praise to Sandy for leaving me "first".

    I have two cats, and I also have mice in the house. This is probably because they are brought in by the cats who then let them go...
    One explanation is cats (especially lady cats) bring in mice to teach you to hunt, as if you were its kitten. Unreliability in feeding times might be the cue that you are indeed a lousy hunter in need of remedial education.

    Of course, the mice could have found their own way in.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited June 2020

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The "Red Wallers" won't exist after the next election. There will no longer be a reason for them to vote Tory now Corbyn is gone, and to a lesser extent, Brexit is "done" (and my, will a lot of them be "done" in a big way!).
    The "Red Wallers" are not unique and despite being a hardcore on economics Tory I'm more of a Red Waller than a Shire Tory.

    I found this article quite interesting. I would definitely 100% side with Liz Truss and the Lidl free marketeers over the Waitrose protectionists - the comparison with the Corn Laws was quite interesting too.

    Personally I think Liz Truss is one of the more impressive and underrated members of the Cabinet.
    The red wallers who switched to the Tories voted for Corbyn in 2017, for Boris in 2019.

    The reason they voted Tory was not to stop Corbyn, that was more southern Tory Remainers, it was to deliver Brexit and hard Brexit given most of them want to end free movement
    As always, you’re the expert on northern “red wallers” from your flat in Essex.
    Indeed. I'm actually a Northern Tory, you're a Northerner. HYUFD is . . . ignorable.
    You voted Tory in 2010, 2015, 2017 and 2019.

    On no definition whatsoever are you a northern Red Wall swing voter who voted for Corbyn and Labour in 2017 but switched to Boris and the Tories in 2019
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Andy_JS said:
    Given that this is Toby, I imagine the "things" he's talking about are mostly genetic codes.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Hopefully never. That's the role of Councils not Central Government.
    On the contrary [edit: in part, sorry]. Natural England, English Heritage, and so on.
    I thought they were ran independently and not by Central Government?

    What's been done so far that has anything to do with them anyway? The statues that have been debated so far are local government matters not central government matters.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited June 2020

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The "Red Wallers" won't exist after the next election. There will no longer be a reason for them to vote Tory now Corbyn is gone, and to a lesser extent, Brexit is "done" (and my, will a lot of them be "done" in a big way!).
    The "Red Wallers" are not unique and despite being a hardcore on economics Tory I'm more of a Red Waller than a Shire Tory.

    I found this article quite interesting. I would definitely 100% side with Liz Truss and the Lidl free marketeers over the Waitrose protectionists - the comparison with the Corn Laws was quite interesting too.

    Personally I think Liz Truss is one of the more impressive and underrated members of the Cabinet.
    The red wallers who switched to the Tories voted for Corbyn in 2017, for Boris in 2019.

    The reason they voted Tory was not to stop Corbyn, that was more southern Tory Remainers, it was to deliver Brexit and hard Brexit given most of them want to end free movement
    As always, you’re the expert on northern “red wallers” from your flat in Essex.
    Indeed. I'm actually a Northern Tory, you're a Northerner. HYUFD is . . . ignorable.
    I’m actually originally from the West Midlands but I’ve lived in the North East for 10 years now!
    You didn't even vote Tory in 2019, so no special insight on why Boris won the Red Wall from you either
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    fox327 said:

    Also, Labour supporters may find it difficult to campaign in an election as this usually involves going outside, knocking on doors, distributing literature and being seen in public and they seem to be uncomfortable with these activities. To be fair the BLM protesters were out in public, but I am not sure that this type of protest would transfer into campaigning in an election.

    Er, what?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,240

    Mr. Observer, indeed.

    For the Conservatives, party and national interest coincides with the removal of the incumbent PM.

    However, as with the dog days of John Major, Boris can survive as long as there isn't an agreed heir apparent. What did for TMxPM was that there was an heir all-too-apparent who a sufficient group of MPs were happy to support. Now, there isn't really one; Rishi is too green, everyone else is either unelectable (Gove? Raab?) or too Unsound On Brexit (Hunt).

    So it Boris goes, it's either genuine health reasons, or that he gets fed up with people being mean to him and walks off in a sulk. The latter ought to be unthinkable... but with Boris, who knows?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The "Red Wallers" won't exist after the next election. There will no longer be a reason for them to vote Tory now Corbyn is gone, and to a lesser extent, Brexit is "done" (and my, will a lot of them be "done" in a big way!).
    The "Red Wallers" are not unique and despite being a hardcore on economics Tory I'm more of a Red Waller than a Shire Tory.

    I found this article quite interesting. I would definitely 100% side with Liz Truss and the Lidl free marketeers over the Waitrose protectionists - the comparison with the Corn Laws was quite interesting too.

    Personally I think Liz Truss is one of the more impressive and underrated members of the Cabinet.
    The red wallers who switched to the Tories voted for Corbyn in 2017, for Boris in 2019.

    The reason they voted Tory was not to stop Corbyn, that was more southern Tory Remainers, it was to deliver Brexit and hard Brexit given most of them want to end free movement
    As always, you’re the expert on northern “red wallers” from your flat in Essex.
    Indeed. I'm actually a Northern Tory, you're a Northerner. HYUFD is . . . ignorable.
    I’m actually originally from the West Midlands but I’ve lived in the North East for 10 years now!
    Has your accent changed at all ?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,378

    Andy_JS said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Streaming services like Netflix taking down/editing/consulting on potentially racist comedy and tv shows is an interesting phenomenon.

    It's important to note that governments are *NOT* telling them to do this.
    This is private businesses deciding to do it for themselves.

    Very small state approach which presumably will be welcomed by conservatives ;)

    They're being bullied into it by a relatively tiny number of activists on social media.
    Free speech in action. The other side of the debate can speak freely if they're unhappy too.

    The logical compromise is to do what Disney have done with Dumbo. They say at the end of the description before you press play: "This film is as originally recorded. It may contain cultural stereotypes." Then the film is 100% as originally recorded, unaltered. Job done.
    There's probably an element of cynicism as well. Censor/temporarily ban something, and sales of that thing in other media will soar.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    tlg86 said:

    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    Should The Dam Busters be edited/removed?

    I've just watched the Major scene - it's fine in my opinion, but some people are sensitive to language.
    You could make a perfectly fine Dambusters movie without anyone addressing the dog by name. You don’t even have to rename it or edit it out. Just have everyone referring to it as “good boy” or “your lab”.
    Perhaps, but why should historical work be altered to fit with modern sensitivities? I think people should be able to choose to watch what they like, perhaps with a warning about content that some may find offensive.
    I was taking about a remake but historical works are often so edited. Bits are taken out of Shakespeare for performance all the time. Movies are often edited for TV and/or airline viewing. It’s not new.
    And it's wrong.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rain_Man#Qantas_and_airline_controversy
    The name of the dog in Dambusters is not key to the narrative of the whole movie. That’s the difference. You can edit it out with no ill effects. You don’t even have to take the dog or its death out, just its name. The decision of Quantas in that case removed a key scene. The equivalent in Dambusters would be taking out the scene in the theatre when he came up with the idea of measuring height using lamps. Editors exist for a reason.
    Whilst that's true, I'm uncomfortable with a blanket ban on words.

    To go back to Fawlty Towers, the use of the n word is part of the joke (on the Major, I might add) so that scene wouldn't really work without it. But I guess that's not enough to save it.
    I think Rising Damp is a good example of 'who is the butt of the joke?'. The answer is obviously Rigsby, whose racist assumptions are shown up as he is easily outwitted by Philip.

    But that does not mean that Philip's own characterisation of himself as the son of an African chief is not in many ways problematic. You do have to watch the series to get that, not just five minutes of it.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:
    The "Red Wallers" won't exist after the next election. There will no longer be a reason for them to vote Tory now Corbyn is gone, and to a lesser extent, Brexit is "done" (and my, will a lot of them be "done" in a big way!).
    The "Red Wallers" are not unique and despite being a hardcore on economics Tory I'm more of a Red Waller than a Shire Tory.

    I found this article quite interesting. I would definitely 100% side with Liz Truss and the Lidl free marketeers over the Waitrose protectionists - the comparison with the Corn Laws was quite interesting too.

    Personally I think Liz Truss is one of the more impressive and underrated members of the Cabinet.
    The red wallers who switched to the Tories voted for Corbyn in 2017, for Boris in 2019.

    The reason they voted Tory was not to stop Corbyn, that was more southern Tory Remainers, it was to deliver Brexit and hard Brexit given most of them want to end free movement
    As always, you’re the expert on northern “red wallers” from your flat in Essex.
    Indeed. I'm actually a Northern Tory, you're a Northerner. HYUFD is . . . ignorable.
    You voted Tory in 2010, 2015, 2017 and 2019.

    On no definition whatsoever are you a northern Red Wall swing voter you voted for Corbyn and Labour in 2017 but switched to Boris and the Tories in 2019
    Neither are you. But I live in a Northern swing seat, I've campaigned in Northern swing seats and understand voters up here better than you do divining what you want from opinion polls. Life's more complex than your absurd truisms.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    DougSeal said:

    Unless it turns out that his illness has caused him to be permanently disabled, Boris isn't going anywhere, despite the wishful thinking of his opponents. Yes, Covid and its after-effects are going to make the next couple of years a nightmare across the Western world, but that’s unavoidable whoever the leader is, and there’s plenty of opportunity to get back to a semblance of good times by 2024.

    As for ephemeral polls, the current orgy of cultural vandalism has interrupted Labour’s rise as the public wakes up to what the fuck they may be voting into power, as yesterday’s Survation suggests...

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271057897196306433

    One solitary statue of a mass murderer gets unlawfully taken down, the rightists of PB call it an “orgy of cultural vandalism” and imply the Labour Party is to blame. In the meantime, we will have around 60,000 excess deaths as a result of the Government’s muddled response, more than any comparable country on an aggregate or per capita basis, and the worst economic downturn in the industrialised world, but that’s “unavoidable whoever the leader is”. In the words of one commentator here “you couldn’t make it up”.
    One solitary statue taken down by a violent mob explicitly celebrated by Labour MP Nadia Whittome:

    https://twitter.com/NadiaWhittomeMP/status/1269732031128383490

    Note her exact words about a future Labour Government:

    'I celebrate these acts of resistance.'

    'We need a movement that will tear down systemic racism and the slave owner statues that symbolise it. And we need to win a government that will always be on the side of this movement.'

    The statue's vandals have published a hit list of dozens more across the country to destroy, and they've already defaced many more, including Churchill, Lincoln, and Gandhi.

    Meanwhile, Labour mayors and councils across the country are jumping at the opportunity to 'review' their local monuments, and in the case of Sadiq Khan, to just send in the JCBs as he did with Milligan.

    I'm afraid the facts speak for themselves about the left's intentions.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Johnson staying is very good news for Labour but very bad news for the country. Given that the next election is four years away, I hope the Tories put the country forst. We desperately need a government run by someone with a level of competence and diligence that Johnson does not possess. We also need a PM willing to put the best of the available talent in his or her cabinet. As we know, Johnson will not do that.

    The case for Boris staying is that he (and Cummings) are committed to investment whereas any successor might prefer cuts and austerity.
    I'm not sure SO actually cares about policy, as long as it's executed competently.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935

    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Hopefully never. That's the role of Councils not Central Government.
    On the contrary [edit: in part, sorry]. Natural England, English Heritage, and so on.
    I thought they were ran independently and not by Central Government?

    What's been done so far that has anything to do with them anyway? The statues that have been debated so far are local government matters not central government matters.
    It's a quango: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historic_England
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    The rest of the tweets by Keiran are also worth reading.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Andy_JS said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Streaming services like Netflix taking down/editing/consulting on potentially racist comedy and tv shows is an interesting phenomenon.

    It's important to note that governments are *NOT* telling them to do this.
    This is private businesses deciding to do it for themselves.

    Very small state approach which presumably will be welcomed by conservatives ;)

    They're being bullied into it by a relatively tiny number of activists on social media.
    But it’s not the government, any government, doing it. Even in the US First Amendment protection does not extend to what companies choose to make available or publish on their platforms. It’s not censorship. These shows remain available. You want to watch Gone With the Wind today? Rent it off Apple TV or Amazon Prime for less than 4 quid. Want to watch Little Britain this evening? Still available to rent or buy on Google Play. Fawlty Towers? All episodes still available on Amazon Prime. This whole culture war blacklash from the right is utterly an utterly pathetic diversion.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    Sean_F said:

    Andy_JS said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Streaming services like Netflix taking down/editing/consulting on potentially racist comedy and tv shows is an interesting phenomenon.

    It's important to note that governments are *NOT* telling them to do this.
    This is private businesses deciding to do it for themselves.

    Very small state approach which presumably will be welcomed by conservatives ;)

    They're being bullied into it by a relatively tiny number of activists on social media.
    Free speech in action. The other side of the debate can speak freely if they're unhappy too.

    The logical compromise is to do what Disney have done with Dumbo. They say at the end of the description before you press play: "This film is as originally recorded. It may contain cultural stereotypes." Then the film is 100% as originally recorded, unaltered. Job done.
    There's probably an element of cynicism as well. Censor/temporarily ban something, and sales of that thing in other media will soar.
    I was thinking about that on my run this morning

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEBXuhqVSws

    Gone with the wind currently Amazon top selling DVD.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Hopefully never. That's the role of Councils not Central Government.
    On the contrary [edit: in part, sorry]. Natural England, English Heritage, and so on.
    I thought they were ran independently and not by Central Government?

    What's been done so far that has anything to do with them anyway? The statues that have been debated so far are local government matters not central government matters.
    Historic England - to use the up to date term, my slip, sorry - has a major role to play in listing buildings and structures:

    https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/

    And it's a central government agency - a quango as I suppose it used to be called. Debatable whether you call it a central gmt body but this does mean the matters it deals with are central government in a sense.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,599
    The Tories holding 96% of their GE vote of 44.7%, not bad in the circumstances.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    tlg86 said:

    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    Should The Dam Busters be edited/removed?

    I've just watched the Major scene - it's fine in my opinion, but some people are sensitive to language.
    You could make a perfectly fine Dambusters movie without anyone addressing the dog by name. You don’t even have to rename it or edit it out. Just have everyone referring to it as “good boy” or “your lab”.
    Perhaps, but why should historical work be altered to fit with modern sensitivities? I think people should be able to choose to watch what they like, perhaps with a warning about content that some may find offensive.
    I was taking about a remake but historical works are often so edited. Bits are taken out of Shakespeare for performance all the time. Movies are often edited for TV and/or airline viewing. It’s not new.
    And it's wrong.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rain_Man#Qantas_and_airline_controversy
    The name of the dog in Dambusters is not key to the narrative of the whole movie. That’s the difference. You can edit it out with no ill effects. You don’t even have to take the dog or its death out, just its name. The decision of Quantas in that case removed a key scene. The equivalent in Dambusters would be taking out the scene in the theatre when he came up with the idea of measuring height using lamps. Editors exist for a reason.
    Whilst that's true, I'm uncomfortable with a blanket ban on words.

    To go back to Fawlty Towers, the use of the n word is part of the joke (on the Major, I might add) so that scene wouldn't really work without it. But I guess that's not enough to save it.
    It’s available unexpurgated on Amazon Prime if you’re that invested in it.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533

    fox327 said:

    Also, Labour supporters may find it difficult to campaign in an election as this usually involves going outside, knocking on doors, distributing literature and being seen in public and they seem to be uncomfortable with these activities. To be fair the BLM protesters were out in public, but I am not sure that this type of protest would transfer into campaigning in an election.

    Er, what?
    Don't understand either. Labour activists are dead keen on all the things you mention, and I have some very frustrated colleagues about it not being currently possible. This seems unlikely still to be true in 2021, never mind 2024.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    DougSeal said:

    Andy_JS said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Streaming services like Netflix taking down/editing/consulting on potentially racist comedy and tv shows is an interesting phenomenon.

    It's important to note that governments are *NOT* telling them to do this.
    This is private businesses deciding to do it for themselves.

    Very small state approach which presumably will be welcomed by conservatives ;)

    They're being bullied into it by a relatively tiny number of activists on social media.
    But it’s not the government, any government, doing it. Even in the US First Amendment protection does not extend to what companies choose to make available or publish on their platforms. It’s not censorship. These shows remain available. You want to watch Gone With the Wind today? Rent it off Apple TV or Amazon Prime for less than 4 quid. Want to watch Little Britain this evening? Still available to rent or buy on Google Play. Fawlty Towers? All episodes still available on Amazon Prime. This whole culture war blacklash from the right is utterly an utterly pathetic diversion.
    I don't think anyone is claiming a government is doing it.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Sean_F said:

    Andy_JS said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Streaming services like Netflix taking down/editing/consulting on potentially racist comedy and tv shows is an interesting phenomenon.

    It's important to note that governments are *NOT* telling them to do this.
    This is private businesses deciding to do it for themselves.

    Very small state approach which presumably will be welcomed by conservatives ;)

    They're being bullied into it by a relatively tiny number of activists on social media.
    Free speech in action. The other side of the debate can speak freely if they're unhappy too.

    The logical compromise is to do what Disney have done with Dumbo. They say at the end of the description before you press play: "This film is as originally recorded. It may contain cultural stereotypes." Then the film is 100% as originally recorded, unaltered. Job done.
    There's probably an element of cynicism as well. Censor/temporarily ban something, and sales of that thing in other media will soar.
    Well true.

    How much free publicity have HBO had from pulling Gone With The Wind - and as a two-for-one how much more free publicity are they going to get when Gone With The Wind comes back unaltered in the near future? Very cynical.

    They could have just quietly put a Dumbo-style disclaimer on without announcing it and nobody would have cared or noticed. Instead they've had us talking about them for days.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Hopefully never. That's the role of Councils not Central Government.
    On the contrary [edit: in part, sorry]. Natural England, English Heritage, and so on.
    I thought they were ran independently and not by Central Government?

    What's been done so far that has anything to do with them anyway? The statues that have been debated so far are local government matters not central government matters.
    Historic England - to use the up to date term, my slip, sorry - has a major role to play in listing buildings and structures:

    https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/

    And it's a central government agency - a quango as I suppose it used to be called. Debatable whether you call it a central gmt body but this does mean the matters it deals with are central government in a sense.
    In listed buildings yes, not in statues that are regularly moved anyway.

    As far as I know nobody has suggested pulling down buildings, despite the straw man that people are using about it.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905

    Johnson staying is very good news for Labour but very bad news for the country. Given that the next election is four years away, I hope the Tories put the country forst. We desperately need a government run by someone with a level of competence and diligence that Johnson does not possess. We also need a PM willing to put the best of the available talent in his or her cabinet. As we know, Johnson will not do that.

    The problem that the Conservatives have is finding somebody to replace Johnson. The sad reality is that they do not have anybody.

    The first quality they need, in m opinion, is to find somebody who is trustworthy. The present gang of cheats, chancers and short-term opportunists has contaminated the entire brand.

    So a question for the PB Tories.... Which Tory politician do you think the public actually trusts?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Pulpstar said:

    Sean_F said:

    Andy_JS said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Streaming services like Netflix taking down/editing/consulting on potentially racist comedy and tv shows is an interesting phenomenon.

    It's important to note that governments are *NOT* telling them to do this.
    This is private businesses deciding to do it for themselves.

    Very small state approach which presumably will be welcomed by conservatives ;)

    They're being bullied into it by a relatively tiny number of activists on social media.
    Free speech in action. The other side of the debate can speak freely if they're unhappy too.

    The logical compromise is to do what Disney have done with Dumbo. They say at the end of the description before you press play: "This film is as originally recorded. It may contain cultural stereotypes." Then the film is 100% as originally recorded, unaltered. Job done.
    There's probably an element of cynicism as well. Censor/temporarily ban something, and sales of that thing in other media will soar.
    I was thinking about that on my run this morning

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEBXuhqVSws

    Gone with the wind currently Amazon top selling DVD.
    Streisand Effect.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    DougSeal said:

    Unless it turns out that his illness has caused him to be permanently disabled, Boris isn't going anywhere, despite the wishful thinking of his opponents. Yes, Covid and its after-effects are going to make the next couple of years a nightmare across the Western world, but that’s unavoidable whoever the leader is, and there’s plenty of opportunity to get back to a semblance of good times by 2024.

    As for ephemeral polls, the current orgy of cultural vandalism has interrupted Labour’s rise as the public wakes up to what the fuck they may be voting into power, as yesterday’s Survation suggests...

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271057897196306433

    One solitary statue of a mass murderer gets unlawfully taken down, the rightists of PB call it an “orgy of cultural vandalism” and imply the Labour Party is to blame. In the meantime, we will have around 60,000 excess deaths as a result of the Government’s muddled response, more than any comparable country on an aggregate or per capita basis, and the worst economic downturn in the industrialised world, but that’s “unavoidable whoever the leader is”. In the words of one commentator here “you couldn’t make it up”.
    One solitary statue taken down by a violent mob explicitly celebrated by Labour MP Nadia Whittome:

    https://twitter.com/NadiaWhittomeMP/status/1269732031128383490

    Note her exact words about a future Labour Government:

    'I celebrate these acts of resistance.'

    'We need a movement that will tear down systemic racism and the slave owner statues that symbolise it. And we need to win a government that will always be on the side of this movement.'

    The statue's vandals have published a hit list of dozens more across the country to destroy, and they've already defaced many more, including Churchill, Lincoln, and Gandhi.

    Meanwhile, Labour mayors and councils across the country are jumping at the opportunity to 'review' their local monuments, and in the case of Sadiq Khan, to just send in the JCBs as he did with Milligan.

    I'm afraid the facts speak for themselves about the left's intentions.
    And I’m afraid the numbers speak for themselves as to the number of people your party has negligently allowed to die these last three months. Are you on the side of living humans or statues? The impression you give is that you give more of a damn about chunks of metal celebrating mass murderers like Coulson and Milligan than the people of this country. But I am sure that is not the case.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,378

    tlg86 said:

    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    FPT:

    DougSeal said:

    tlg86 said:

    Should The Dam Busters be edited/removed?

    I've just watched the Major scene - it's fine in my opinion, but some people are sensitive to language.
    You could make a perfectly fine Dambusters movie without anyone addressing the dog by name. You don’t even have to rename it or edit it out. Just have everyone referring to it as “good boy” or “your lab”.
    Perhaps, but why should historical work be altered to fit with modern sensitivities? I think people should be able to choose to watch what they like, perhaps with a warning about content that some may find offensive.
    I was taking about a remake but historical works are often so edited. Bits are taken out of Shakespeare for performance all the time. Movies are often edited for TV and/or airline viewing. It’s not new.
    And it's wrong.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rain_Man#Qantas_and_airline_controversy
    The name of the dog in Dambusters is not key to the narrative of the whole movie. That’s the difference. You can edit it out with no ill effects. You don’t even have to take the dog or its death out, just its name. The decision of Quantas in that case removed a key scene. The equivalent in Dambusters would be taking out the scene in the theatre when he came up with the idea of measuring height using lamps. Editors exist for a reason.
    Whilst that's true, I'm uncomfortable with a blanket ban on words.

    To go back to Fawlty Towers, the use of the n word is part of the joke (on the Major, I might add) so that scene wouldn't really work without it. But I guess that's not enough to save it.
    I think Rising Damp is a good example of 'who is the butt of the joke?'. The answer is obviously Rigsby, whose racist assumptions are shown up as he is easily outwitted by Philip.

    But that does not mean that Philip's own characterisation of himself as the son of an African chief is not in many ways problematic. You do have to watch the series to get that, not just five minutes of it.
    While that is true, there is probably very little worthwhile art, literature, film, that is not "problematic" to a greater or lesser extent. Artists, writers, film-makers etc. all have their prejudices, and values change over time.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Debating what Cummings said or didn't say is a distraction (I wasn't one of those who obsessed about his private arrangements either). One needs to look at Government policy as it actually emerged. It looks as though the late lockdown was a tragic error (notably, Johnson hasn't denied it, just said it's too soon to judge).

    The situation was undeniably difficult, and there was lots of conflicting advice. I expect that despite the thousands of deaths apparently arising, many people might forgive a mistake. What they would not forgive is doing the same thing *again* by over-hasty opening up for political reasons. We are really quite close to bringing the pandemic right down. It would be quite mad to put that at risk so that people can mingle freely in July rather than September. If that difference means that otherwise healthy businesses would go under, then help the businesses directly - don't extend the pandemic so that the Dog & Duck can have 100 customers.

    I agree Nick but do we give all the protest marches a free pass

    It is impossible to enforce social distancing but I have no idea just how these marches will reflect in the R rate over the next three weeks

    If R remains below 1 by the end of the month I expect Boris will reduce the 2 metre rule by mid July and open the leisure industry including pubs, restaurants, hotels, caravan parks etc
    It might be too late by then for a lot of businesses.
    I am sure you are right but allowing the summer to pass the leisue industry by will be the ultimate disaster
    I'm suggesting we do the opposite and get everything open now. Put a 1m rule in place and get on with it.
    In reality there's little real world perceivable difference between saying 1m and 2m.

    How many people have got a tape measure out and marked out 2 metres? Maybe in checkout queues but for the rest of the time in normal life it just means to people "keep a gap" - and that gap is very frequently under 2 metres already.
    The difference is between pubs, restaurants, cafés and bars being able to run at 70-80% capacity and 30% capacity. Loads would survive with 1m distancing, almost all will go bankrupt with 2m distancing. In practical terms you're right the difference is not perceptible, but for the specific regulation it's a huge deal for the hospitality sector.
    If you're anally obsessive and mark it out sure. If you trust the public to use common sense, no.

    I very frequently find people coming within 2 metres of me while I'm walking on the street or shopping etc - and I have no doubt it'd be the same in bars. If you say two metres people may stand a metre apart, if you say a metre people will get closer.

    Restaurants with laid out tables to be fair it probably does make more of a real world difference since they're pre spaced out.

    Since the virus spreads more when you're face-to-face but the only people face-to-face at a restaurant table will be those sharing the same table (and thus not distancing) it would make a lot of sense to put tables 1 metre apart side-to-side.
    Yes the point I'm making is that restaurants, pubs, bars, hairdressers etc... can't legally live by a 1m rule when the government is sticking with 2m. Day to day interactions are already living by 1m but keeping the regulation at 2m is going to destroy a lot of jobs. The government needs to get a handle on this by the end of next week and start pushing the 1m line so people get used to it before the pubs open.
    The difference between 2m and 1m is probably also the difference between a location which is high risk for superspreading events and one which is not.
    I agree that the 2m distancing rule can't survive for long owing to economic necessity, but abandoning it too soon (and we're talking a matter of perhaps a couple of weeks) is an unnecessary risk.

    And it might need to be re-instituted later in the year. That would certainly be vastly preferable to a second lockdown, and with large scale testing now in place, along with track/trace/isolate, probably almost as effective.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,249
    edited June 2020

    MattW said:

    First. Again.

    Let's go offtopic from the start. One of the better headlines of the lockdown I have seen:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-52939812/coronavirus-people-harassed-by-rats-during-lockdown

    (There are these things called rat traps, and these other things called cats. Presumably Great Jumping Jolyon does it like Yogi.)

    And praise to Sandy for leaving me "first".

    I have two cats, and I also have mice in the house. This is probably because they are brought in by the cats who then let them go...
    Just having fun.

    You need a farm cat :-)
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    RobD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Andy_JS said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Streaming services like Netflix taking down/editing/consulting on potentially racist comedy and tv shows is an interesting phenomenon.

    It's important to note that governments are *NOT* telling them to do this.
    This is private businesses deciding to do it for themselves.

    Very small state approach which presumably will be welcomed by conservatives ;)

    They're being bullied into it by a relatively tiny number of activists on social media.
    But it’s not the government, any government, doing it. Even in the US First Amendment protection does not extend to what companies choose to make available or publish on their platforms. It’s not censorship. These shows remain available. You want to watch Gone With the Wind today? Rent it off Apple TV or Amazon Prime for less than 4 quid. Want to watch Little Britain this evening? Still available to rent or buy on Google Play. Fawlty Towers? All episodes still available on Amazon Prime. This whole culture war blacklash from the right is utterly an utterly pathetic diversion.
    I don't think anyone is claiming a government is doing it.
    Not explicitly but people are saying it’s “impossible” to say anything anymore. Of course it’s not. You just have to expect to be roundly criticised.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,885

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Hopefully never. That's the role of Councils not Central Government.
    On the contrary [edit: in part, sorry]. Natural England, English Heritage, and so on.
    I thought they were ran independently and not by Central Government?

    What's been done so far that has anything to do with them anyway? The statues that have been debated so far are local government matters not central government matters.
    Historic England - to use the up to date term, my slip, sorry - has a major role to play in listing buildings and structures:

    https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/

    And it's a central government agency - a quango as I suppose it used to be called. Debatable whether you call it a central gmt body but this does mean the matters it deals with are central government in a sense.
    In listed buildings yes, not in statues that are regularly moved anyway.

    As far as I know nobody has suggested pulling down buildings, despite the straw man that people are using about it.
    Well, IIRC fixings and fittings of buildings are part of them, so eg the Rhodes statue at Oxford would come under that.

    And listing is not just buildings but structures, gardens, etc. as well. And statues in isolation are listed - abundantly:

    https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/results/?searchType=NHLE+Simple&search=statue
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:

    Unless it turns out that his illness has caused him to be permanently disabled, Boris isn't going anywhere, despite the wishful thinking of his opponents. Yes, Covid and its after-effects are going to make the next couple of years a nightmare across the Western world, but that’s unavoidable whoever the leader is, and there’s plenty of opportunity to get back to a semblance of good times by 2024.

    As for ephemeral polls, the current orgy of cultural vandalism has interrupted Labour’s rise as the public wakes up to what the fuck they may be voting into power, as yesterday’s Survation suggests...

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1271057897196306433

    One solitary statue of a mass murderer gets unlawfully taken down, the rightists of PB call it an “orgy of cultural vandalism” and imply the Labour Party is to blame. In the meantime, we will have around 60,000 excess deaths as a result of the Government’s muddled response, more than any comparable country on an aggregate or per capita basis, and the worst economic downturn in the industrialised world, but that’s “unavoidable whoever the leader is”. In the words of one commentator here “you couldn’t make it up”.
    One solitary statue taken down by a violent mob explicitly celebrated by Labour MP Nadia Whittome:

    https://twitter.com/NadiaWhittomeMP/status/1269732031128383490

    Note her exact words about a future Labour Government:

    'I celebrate these acts of resistance.'

    'We need a movement that will tear down systemic racism and the slave owner statues that symbolise it. And we need to win a government that will always be on the side of this movement.'

    The statue's vandals have published a hit list of dozens more across the country to destroy, and they've already defaced many more, including Churchill, Lincoln, and Gandhi.

    Meanwhile, Labour mayors and councils across the country are jumping at the opportunity to 'review' their local monuments, and in the case of Sadiq Khan, to just send in the JCBs as he did with Milligan.

    I'm afraid the facts speak for themselves about the left's intentions.
    And I’m afraid the numbers speak for themselves as to the number of people your party has negligently allowed to die these last three months. Are you on the side of living humans or statues? The impression you give is that you give more of a damn about chunks of metal celebrating mass murderers like Coulson and Milligan than the people of this country. But I am sure that is not the case.
    I'm sure the eventual public inquiry will establish exactly what occurred in this unprecendented global pandemic and the extent to which deaths could or could not have been avoided. Of course, you have all the answers now, thanks to your handy time machine.

    'Living humans or statues' isn't a mutually-exclusive choice, by the way. One can want to save as many lives as possible from the pandemic, as the Government is doing, while deploring the violence and cultural vandalism of the far left. People have noticed what they're about, and it doesn't look as though they like it...
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    DougSeal said:

    RobD said:

    DougSeal said:

    Andy_JS said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Streaming services like Netflix taking down/editing/consulting on potentially racist comedy and tv shows is an interesting phenomenon.

    It's important to note that governments are *NOT* telling them to do this.
    This is private businesses deciding to do it for themselves.

    Very small state approach which presumably will be welcomed by conservatives ;)

    They're being bullied into it by a relatively tiny number of activists on social media.
    But it’s not the government, any government, doing it. Even in the US First Amendment protection does not extend to what companies choose to make available or publish on their platforms. It’s not censorship. These shows remain available. You want to watch Gone With the Wind today? Rent it off Apple TV or Amazon Prime for less than 4 quid. Want to watch Little Britain this evening? Still available to rent or buy on Google Play. Fawlty Towers? All episodes still available on Amazon Prime. This whole culture war blacklash from the right is utterly an utterly pathetic diversion.
    I don't think anyone is claiming a government is doing it.
    Not explicitly but people are saying it’s “impossible” to say anything anymore. Of course it’s not. You just have to expect to be roundly criticised.
    "No Free Speech" = it is no longer possible to spout your prejudices without having to deal with the upset it can cause to others.

    I think it used to be called "Responsiblity" or possibly even "Good manners"
This discussion has been closed.